Yea you were cleared #2 following the Cirrus and just prior to that he had told the Lear to keep speed at 170 on 15 mile final following Baron 5 miles out, no factor... Next thing we hear is him asking you if you have the Lear in sight on 5 mile final, so yea something got mixed up there with his spacing plan. But overall I thought it was no big deal, literally cost you a few minutes tops. Just about everywhere small props are asked to make way for faster jets when things get tight around the airport, assume it is a bigger deal for a Lear to make a go around at that airport with that terrain than for you to make a 360 on final. Also in my experience the plane on the side taxiway usually yields to the one already taxing on a main taxiway. I do not think your socioeconomic class had anything to do with either event. Also let’s remember to the outside observer on TH-cam your life would appear to consist solely of flying to cool places and eating, most would consider that a rather privileged class too. Anyway thanks for the vid keep em coming.
It definitely was NOT "total chaos", but just a short term change of plan by ATC and he probably did not issue the information efficiently. Cost you what, 3 minutes? Still, thanks for the nice video, looking forward to the next one.
Class D tower controller here (not the one from KJAC lol). I don't know but if I had to make a guess, I would say that this controller was probably training at the time. We shouldn't be too terribly hard on him in terms of getting the spacing and sequencing correct. It's something that is not easy when dealing with a wide mix of aircraft, and you really only get better at it by simply working more and gaining more experience at your specific airport and with the speeds and capabilities of the specific variety of aircraft you deal with there. The thing that troubles me (and what we probably should give him a hard time for) is that he said something that implied that runway separation was somehow your job when it most definitely was his. In theory, the process is simple. You pick out a logical sequence, adjust spacing by extending downwinds or upwinds, and then clear everybody in turn. Sometimes, just due to the inherent limitations of controllers, pilots, and aircraft, that sequence and spacing does not work out, and if you continue to stick with it, it will result in runway separation being broken. So in those instances where your plan won't work and it's too late to change the plan, you simply send the next guy around. Telling you to S-turn and telling the jet to expedite off the runway are acceptable tools to try to make the plan work, but telling you the criteria for maintaining Same Runway Separation for consecutive arrivals is a little odd to me, and I don't understand why any controller would say that over the freq, besides to try to imply that it was the pilot's responsibility.
Agreed on not being too hard on him. My guess was that he’s probably an older retired guy at a contract tower and just got a little confused. We all make mistakes. I would actually disagree with you a bit though - it’s his job to sequence but not to maintain separation under VMC conditions. It takes both the pilot and the controller doing what they need to to get that done efficiently, and frankly I’d rather be 100% responsible for that 100% of the time. I know my airplane and how I can fly it, and in my experience when ATC starts guessing at that kind of thing (maybe because I’m still doing 170 knots trying to keep up with a jet because I know I’m going to have to slow to half of that in a minute - and very rapidly - while he keeps doing 130 to the threshold), it gets much less efficient. If it’s up to me to time it, we’ll cross the threshold as he crosses the hold short line; that never happens when ATC tries to get the timing. So I already knew the separation criteria and am very appreciative of him reminding me so that I don’t end up getting too close and have to go around but also don’t end up any further behind than I have to.
@@mattguthmiller Of course! I'm not trying to say that it isn't the pilots job to fly in a way that results in that runway separation happening. Hell, 90% of the time, it's just "follow this guy, cleared to land #2" and making the right spacing is left entirely up to the pilot. It totally is the pilots job to maintain the proper spacing, and it's no easy task to manage that while still running checklists and configuring the airplane so you're set up for a perfect landing. I've got mad respect for pilots like you who can do that, and do it well, even as the sequence gets switched up on you. I'm only saying that regardless of how well or how poorly a pilot does with establishing/maintaining his or her spacing, the tower controller is definitely responsible for ENSURING runway separation. He doesn't necessarily have to give control instructions ("extend downwind, I'll call your base" for example) to make it happen, but he does have to ENSURE that it's happening. In a different world, if you had followed the jet a little too closely and were going to cross before he was off, he would have had to give you a go-around to maintain that separation that he is responsible for. If he didn't, he'd be at fault for a loss of separation. It's basically the only black and white thing that the tower is responsible for. Separation for 2 airborne VFR aircraft, as I believe you mentioned, is ultimately on the pilots involved, and airborne IFR stuff is the responsibility of the approach or center who works that area, but runway sep, whether it's with VFR aircraft or IFR aircraft, is the towers responsibility at a towered field.
@@harrisweigum6038 Two people who can both achieve the same thing, trying to both take responsibility after the fact. Not criticizing, just observing that it's a healthy attitude. Everyone should be doing what they can to keep everyone safe, whether it's them or someone else.
Lol. Reminds me of the time my boss and his wife flew me and my wife to Martha's Vinyard. At the time he was flying our local airport's rental plane - a rode hard and put up wet Piper Arrow 180. When we landed I was actually marveling at all the fancy little jets parked near the airport buildings and was looking forward to getting a close look at them after we parked. But no. As boss taxied the plane near the fancy planes, the guy on the ground gave a hard, angry shake of his head and gestured us out to the 'back 40' and made us park next to a rusting trailer and a bunch of other 40-50 year old single engine prop planes. Sadly, that noble Arrow 180 was crashed and destroyed by a student pilot a few months later (thankfully, no fatalities). My boss bought 1/4 of Cirrus sr22 after that, which I never got that chance ride in before one of his partners buried the prop in the runway at Lake Placid (also, thankfully no injuries!). I wonder what's next....
I’m a retired controller and a life long pilot. I get a little peeved too when I don’t get great service, but I deal with it myself. All in all we get great service on a daily basis and have little to complain about.
A36 pilot here. Depending on how much energy you've got, raising the gear when close to the runway can be a bad idea (1:40). There's a momentary but noticeable increase in drag when a Bonanza's gear comes up, and airplanes on the edge of high, hot and heavy have been known to settle back down onto the runway sans rollers. Better to wait a while and let the situation stabilize with the ground well below you. As for Casper, at least it's not Rock Springs.
Matt I love your videos! You were one of the major influences on me to start my own TH-cam channel to share my aviation experiences. Thank you so much for the inspiration and what you do for the aviation community!
You started off as 3 in sequence. Then 2, BUT you never reported that you had the Lear in sight until he was too close, that's why controller gave you a plan B. He did right to maintain spacing and safety. Kinda sucks the space was so busy that day but it happens. I'm sure the Lear was grateful ;)
Always wondered what went on in GA cockpits. I’m a retired Navy pilot, flew props and jets off carriers, a former NetJets Sovereign driver and only experience with GA was landing at fields with lots of GA aircraft flying around. I’ll keep my opinion to myself for now, research this a bit. Entertaining video.
My initial thought something was up when the learjet was asked to keep speed up (170) on a 5 mile final and you were on the downwind still. That controller made a mistake, like they often do thinking a jet is going to be worlds faster than a bonanza getting to the runway. At least it wasn't a Cirrus Jet, you would have done 3 360's
Golf Pilot when we are given instructions we need to follow them. The Lear would’ve overtaken him unless he was about to turn base himself. But 170 knots at 5 miles takes almost no time
@@kenclark9888 That's a little bit patronising with the "Bonanza Boy" comment? I mean he has flown that plane around the world setting a record or two on the way! But you are correct about 5 miles disappearing in no time, I would guess at an average of 150Kn, 170, slowing to about 110 to actually land, would take about 2 minutes and the Bonanza doing a rate 1 turn would take about 2 minutes. ATC are always conscious of getting jets in before pistons as they churn up a lot of gas in a hold or go around and they moan about being delayed by the little guys! And their landing fees, here in UK, are a factor of probably 100 times more than ours! I had to wait for about 20 minutes for take off clearance at Biggin Hill once, as there was Bernie Ecclestone's Jet on Final, and some other guy in a Falcon, and he didn't even ask if I wanted to shut down? Since Formula One management moved in. they have been pushing the Lower end of GA out with high landing and parking fees! But what's new in aviation?
Fun fact: JAC is the only commercial airport in the US inside a National Park (just inside Grand Teton NP). And it has a really beautiful passenger terminal that was renovated in the last decade. One of my fav airports to transit
Its interesting when you have wider conversations with ATC, I realise that everyone needs to stay professional but those titbits that show everyone is human are little gems, especially the tour.
This will probably get buried since I'm four weeks late to the party, but there are a couple red flags here that could be useful to learn from. Obviously in this case, the tower controller had a few slip-ups that led to the confusion. But equally, this confusion was preventable by the pilots both in the Learjet and in 7HP. As pilots, we all need to be responsible for maintaining situational awareness, and we always need double check ATC's instructions with our own situational awareness to make sure everything makes sense. Here are a few key moments and my armchair analysis of what I think could have been done differently: 20:36 - Tower sequenced 7HP #3 behind the Learjet. 20:55 - Tower told the Learjet that he'd be following the Bonanza, and that the Bonanza was "close in, no factor for you." This should have raised red flags for the Learjet, since the Bonanza wasn't close in, and wasn't no factor to the Learjet--that was the Cirrus that was landing in front. It should also have raised red flags in 7HP, because just a bit before, tower had sequenced 7HP behind the Learjet and never informed 7HP of the change. 21:04 - Tower said "N7HP, looks like you're inside ZUGEN, number 2 following a VFR cirrus ... rwy 1 cleared to land number 2." ZUGEN is the final approach fix on the RNAV 1 into JAC. 7HP should have confirmed that the transmission was for him, since his mention of ZUGEN should have felt strange. He should also have confirmed the change in sequence from what was issued 30 seconds before. Equally, the pilot of the Learjet (who presumably had the approach plate in front of him) should have known that *he* was just inside ZUGEN and that the transmission was probably intended for him and *not* 7HP. He should have asked about this. He should also have asked about the change in sequence. Maintaining situational awareness even (especially?) at a towered airport is one of those things that I hammer hard into my students. The airport where I teach combines lots of student pilots with tower trainees, which regularly results in some pretty interesting situations that are usually resolved by a quick radio call to confirm. Remember, when in doubt, ask. As shocking as it may be, pilots and controllers are both human. Both groups make mistakes, and both need to be watching out for each others' backs. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I think your diagnosis is spot on. It seems the "root cause" (if there is only one) was the controller confusing the two tails (..7HP and ..74HT are not too dissimilar) for the callout after ZUGEN. I think Matt generally does a good job balancing PIC duties with commentary, but if both aircraft had been practicing sterile cockpit procedures, it's likely one of them would have caught the slip-up as you described.
Exactly right James. I’m an “old guy”...retired ATC who 7 yrs later went to a contract tower. Bottom line however...the SYSTEM only works because both sides are doing their part the make it work.
I spent a summer towing and hopping glider rides at Jackson Hole. One of my years as an airport bum after I was fired from SEARS after 21 years and on my 50th birthday. Best thing that ever happened to me.
Hi Matt, that was great, I'll not repeat what others have said below but you wouldn't have the same adventures in a LearJet as you do in HP so ignore them! I think your pal in the cub deserves a medal for his resilience and endurance! Great scenery, love the US ATC and look forward to the next one! P.S. be interested to have a video showing us the G36 in more detail, performance envelope, fuel consumption, range etc and why you chose that over other high performance piston singles. Best wishes.
You have more flight time than I will ever have, but it looks like you're layering a lot of risks. Chatting with pax on takeoff, depending on ground effect in gusty weather for lift with gear up close to ground, dodging heavy weather rather than stopping short for the night. The list is a lot longer. Be safe! There are no old, bold (or complacent) pilots.
LMAO if you dont have a lot of hours then keep your mouth shut you have no clue about risks or ADM..... I'm sure you're a lot of fun to fly with, captain stick in the mud.
Bill, obviously you are damned right ... 11:40 gear up way too early ... however comments of this kind rarely make any difference. I learn a lot from recreational pilot's videos for my own flying (thus I just subscribed to this channel), but I stopped preaching some time ago. Looking for a good example of airmanship? Try "Missionary Bush pilot", and enjoy. Btw: nobody is perfect.
I understand what you mean but I dont agree. He waited until his IAS was higher than gusts to make sure they didn't drop. Raised gear and built speed perfectly for the same reason. Weather wasnt a huge factor in this flight really, hardly something someone so experienced cant deal with. I agree on the chatting on TO though, did seem a little relaxed but thats just me. I chat when Im up.
Bill R, Total time doesn't necessarily relate to understanding risks. Some learn from living through risks others evaluate possible risks to minimum issues that may be harmful to the successful outcome of a given flight.
I used to fly in a glider club at an airport which seasonally had a lot of private jet traffic. Of course we occasionally would have to cut them out on their final approach ( gliders obviously can't go around ). Man they hated our guts. Pretty tasty.
Billionaires have right-away over millionaires, and young up-n-comers gotta do 360's waiting their turn. It's written someplace in the FAR's, I'm sure of it.
It's right there in the 7110.65 too, next to, controllers gotta do what controllers gotta do. (from a get em down in order of fast to slow this just makes sense. But I haven't watched that part of the clip yet. just speaking from 17 yrs ATC experience.
As someone who has spent more time outside on foot in the mountains of Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, and Idaho than most people have spent outside their houses I highly suggest a good pair of leather boots like Irish Setter Elk Trackers. A pair of shoes is great for trails, but you're going to have a bad time if you ever want to see the REALLY neat stuff like abandoned mines, ghost towns and factories scattered throughout the draws and valleys of the ranges.
A thought about navigating passes in the mountain west...I learned to fly in the Rockies and the high deserts of the west a decade and a half before the first iPhone so I am used to carrying a case full of paper charts. One thing I always carry is a Delorme Atlas and Gazetteer. It's not handy like a tablet or a phone but a book of topo maps is a great reference. The large format isn't as convenient to use if you're used to digital formats but being able to scan a large area of terrain in detail at once is, for me, invaluable.
LOL. The Lear was asked to do 170 knots, and you wanted to cut in front? Do you have an idea how much fuel burn jets have flying at low altitude, or even taxing on the ground? When I'm flying my piston toy at a non-towered airport I go out of my way to give jet traffic the shortest approach possible (usually long final off the RNAV). When I'm flying my jet, I expect the piston pilots to extend downwind a little if necessary (like you were asked to do) so that I can get in quicker flying the instrument approach rather than circling the pattern (burning $10-20/minute).
So basically you and the mighty Bonanza caught him off guard making that 5 mile point for base so fast. (Hence him telling the Lear to speed up!) He should have extended you further on the downwind ensuring you didn't turn base until you were adequately separated BEHIND the Lear as he originally instructed with placing you as number 3 in sequence. This could have all been avoided if he simply told the Cirrus and Lear to speed up and the mighty Bonanza to slow down 😄
As a Jackson native and one of the Ramp Rats at KJAC I can imagine it gets a little chaotic at times. There's no radar service, there's usually a line of jets every five miles all day every day, and the controllers have me yacking in their ear looking for towing clearances. Hey though, at least the airport got rid of landing fees for those of us below 12,500 gross! Now all you have to do is be able to find a spot to park.
There is a significant difference in approach speed between a Lear and a bonanza. Slow behind fast always works. Additionally general aviation pilots have a very wide range of skills and reliability thus making them less reliable at following directions and clearing runways. Clearly the Lear was moving fast on the parallel taxiway. That too was a good call. Suck it up. That is not a cheap bonanza to be flying around in so the poor little guy shtick is a bit comical.
Ya, I'll get a word in edgewise, when I land there in my puny little RV-12. Might grab something to eat at Mc Donalds or a Costco hot dog if they have one in town, and buy some premium Mogas there too, to keep the 100LL crap out of my snowmobile engine.. Jackson, with it's people and new money, puts Aspen to shame, nowadays. :-)
Hey Matt! I’d like to thank you for making these videos I’m a pilot in training and your videos have inspired my passion for flight. I simply can’t thank you enough 😀🙏
@@alexandermenzies9954 I'd rather the controller work on too much spacing than too little. Also, we don't know who was in the jet and how demanding they might have been.
@@nothingtoseehere4026 It should also be noted that while it's Class D, there is no radar service in Jackson, the controller cannot actually see where planes are without scanning for them with his eyes.
What a beautiful place Jackson Hole is we were there 58 years ago on our cross country trip to Ca and took that gondola ride to the top of the mountain. It is amazing from the air. Looking forward to the next video.
Having Burbank as my home base during my time in aviation, stuff like this is very common when you are mixing jet aircraft with light single engine aircraft. There are always last minute changes when your already set-up for landing, as they know in that moment that you cannot get you off the runway fast enough and they could force a go-around in the jet that is eating the seperation. Aircraft are always changing speed on the approach, so things like seperation change rapidly. They are often going to give priority to jet aircraft that would burn hundreds of dollars of fuel in a go-around.
Yes pretty much. A jet will not be happy to have to go around at a mountain airport for no real reason. A Lear would have enough power to not feel that safety was any issue at all, but it'd still be less than desirable. Great video though.
"Welcome to Da' Hole" that's what they say down there. But honestly the hole is amazing I was down there not too long ago with some buddies on a ski trip in my piper tri pacer and you get there and it's all white out and you just see the white pure powder on the mountains and I remember saying to my buddies "whelp boys this is why we bought this plane together, for s**t like this, right". Great video
As someone in the medical field, I can say harvested organs are usually flown on small private jets and I’ve heard from the staff who carry the organs say they’re always given preferential service when landing and departing. It may not seem like much, but even a small delay can mean organs end up not being viable for transplant.
We’re you number two behind the Cirrus but then ATC wanted to turn you out and bring you back in again behind the Lear by having you execute a 360 so the faster Lear could get by ? ATC didn’t explain thoroughly but that’s a fairly common practice for a slower aircraft in front of a faster one on final. You were correct though. You were number two behind the Cirrus until ATC gave the turnout instruction and you accepted it. Am I reading the situation correctly ?
Get it in some perspective. In my country you simply cannot just decide to go somewhere in your private aircraft. You file a flight plan the day before and you are given a landing slot at your destination. You do a weather confirmation the morning before your flight. Your course, height and speed are set for you. You either keep to that or you abort and return to your departure point. And thats even for the smallest local airport and all airspace is either civil or military control now. Commercial jets get top priority then commercial propeller, them private jets then private propellor. A casual trip is put at the bottom of the list.
I turned on base at Ellington Field one evening and ATC called me #2 for 2 T-38s 7 miles long final. I could see their landing lights over downtown Houston. I was close to final and they still beat me in.
Seemed pretty straight forward with the controller. Asked to report the Lear in sight and it wasn’t reported in sight by Matt before he made his base turn. Probably would have been ok if reported in sight sooner, but the window of opportunity was probably too close to safely let him land before the Lear.
I'd probably still land there like you did. But I understand your pleab comment. We were in Jackson exploring the Grand Teton's and Yellowstone in August pulling our RV this summer. It was nice but you definitely know that community caters to the wealthy. Cheers.
That wasn’t really that bad. Try summer rush hour at HTO or a summer Friday after at TEB. Napa is another that’s eye opening. There are tons more, but you guys did just fine👍. Enjoy what’s to come in the flying years ahead.
20:55 Yeah tower was all jacked up on this one. Hear he tells the jet to keep his speed up and he’ll be following a bonanza... then tells 7HP that he following the Cirrus and is #2.
@ 20:35 tower told you number three and then soon after cleared you to land behind the Cirrus on short final with the Learjet still on an extended straight in. Yes, he made that mistake, however, personally I would have simply asked for clarification. Except for that error, I thought the plan was a good one.....put you on an extended right downwind for Runway 1 for spacing behind the Learjet. He doesn’t know if you could land short enough to get off the runway in time for the Learjet to land. Suggestion...don’t talk to your passengers when landing. Especially in a relatively complex situation like that. Listen to the radio and every single call to and from the other aircraft. Helps to better understand the big picture.
Ha, I'm just getting back into sim flying with the new FS2020 and flew into KJAC a few days ago in a C172. Super cool that it translates a bit. What a beautiful place.
Hey matt, Love your videos man! They were the videos that got me and my sister started into aviation, and they really inspire us to go out and work hard so that we can become pilots, I don't know If you will see this but keep up the great work stay safe!
What a cluster! You were definitely cleared 2nd after the Cirrus. I guess you will need to get you a Lear before coming back again. They'll have more respect for you.
The small square cameras with the lens that are mounted in this video are not in your gear list. What are those? They have a red button in the bottom lens and quite a large lens mounted.
![[FINALE] มีคนคิดแค้นลักพาตัวเด็กไป🔪หญิงชราใช้ชีวิตตัวเองเข้าแลก👩🦳 #โลกการละคร](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/C_BPHPoZFOg/mqdefault.jpg)
Yea you were cleared #2 following the Cirrus and just prior to that he had told the Lear to keep speed at 170 on 15 mile final following Baron 5 miles out, no factor... Next thing we hear is him asking you if you have the Lear in sight on 5 mile final, so yea something got mixed up there with his spacing plan. But overall I thought it was no big deal, literally cost you a few minutes tops. Just about everywhere small props are asked to make way for faster jets when things get tight around the airport, assume it is a bigger deal for a Lear to make a go around at that airport with that terrain than for you to make a 360 on final. Also in my experience the plane on the side taxiway usually yields to the one already taxing on a main taxiway. I do not think your socioeconomic class had anything to do with either event. Also let’s remember to the outside observer on TH-cam your life would appear to consist solely of flying to cool places and eating, most would consider that a rather privileged class too. Anyway thanks for the vid keep em coming.
Well said!!!!!!!!
It definitely was NOT "total chaos", but just a short term change of plan by ATC and he probably did not issue the information efficiently. Cost you what, 3 minutes?
Still, thanks for the nice video, looking forward to the next one.
My thoughts exactly. I enjoy the vids but this is far from the first time he has shown this kind of attitude.
Matt is a highly skilled and accomplished pilot I've a lot of respect for but Total Chaos?....umm nope
Agree-No need for Click Bait drama titles, we will watch your videos because we enjoy you and the flying content.
Jackson Hole was one of the last trips I made with my 99 year old dad; Brught a tear by my eye seeing, especially the ned of the video. Thank you.
Class D tower controller here (not the one from KJAC lol). I don't know but if I had to make a guess, I would say that this controller was probably training at the time. We shouldn't be too terribly hard on him in terms of getting the spacing and sequencing correct. It's something that is not easy when dealing with a wide mix of aircraft, and you really only get better at it by simply working more and gaining more experience at your specific airport and with the speeds and capabilities of the specific variety of aircraft you deal with there. The thing that troubles me (and what we probably should give him a hard time for) is that he said something that implied that runway separation was somehow your job when it most definitely was his. In theory, the process is simple. You pick out a logical sequence, adjust spacing by extending downwinds or upwinds, and then clear everybody in turn. Sometimes, just due to the inherent limitations of controllers, pilots, and aircraft, that sequence and spacing does not work out, and if you continue to stick with it, it will result in runway separation being broken. So in those instances where your plan won't work and it's too late to change the plan, you simply send the next guy around. Telling you to S-turn and telling the jet to expedite off the runway are acceptable tools to try to make the plan work, but telling you the criteria for maintaining Same Runway Separation for consecutive arrivals is a little odd to me, and I don't understand why any controller would say that over the freq, besides to try to imply that it was the pilot's responsibility.
Agreed on not being too hard on him. My guess was that he’s probably an older retired guy at a contract tower and just got a little confused. We all make mistakes. I would actually disagree with you a bit though - it’s his job to sequence but not to maintain separation under VMC conditions. It takes both the pilot and the controller doing what they need to to get that done efficiently, and frankly I’d rather be 100% responsible for that 100% of the time. I know my airplane and how I can fly it, and in my experience when ATC starts guessing at that kind of thing (maybe because I’m still doing 170 knots trying to keep up with a jet because I know I’m going to have to slow to half of that in a minute - and very rapidly - while he keeps doing 130 to the threshold), it gets much less efficient. If it’s up to me to time it, we’ll cross the threshold as he crosses the hold short line; that never happens when ATC tries to get the timing. So I already knew the separation criteria and am very appreciative of him reminding me so that I don’t end up getting too close and have to go around but also don’t end up any further behind than I have to.
@@mattguthmiller Of course! I'm not trying to say that it isn't the pilots job to fly in a way that results in that runway separation happening. Hell, 90% of the time, it's just "follow this guy, cleared to land #2" and making the right spacing is left entirely up to the pilot. It totally is the pilots job to maintain the proper spacing, and it's no easy task to manage that while still running checklists and configuring the airplane so you're set up for a perfect landing. I've got mad respect for pilots like you who can do that, and do it well, even as the sequence gets switched up on you. I'm only saying that regardless of how well or how poorly a pilot does with establishing/maintaining his or her spacing, the tower controller is definitely responsible for ENSURING runway separation. He doesn't necessarily have to give control instructions ("extend downwind, I'll call your base" for example) to make it happen, but he does have to ENSURE that it's happening. In a different world, if you had followed the jet a little too closely and were going to cross before he was off, he would have had to give you a go-around to maintain that separation that he is responsible for. If he didn't, he'd be at fault for a loss of separation. It's basically the only black and white thing that the tower is responsible for. Separation for 2 airborne VFR aircraft, as I believe you mentioned, is ultimately on the pilots involved, and airborne IFR stuff is the responsibility of the approach or center who works that area, but runway sep, whether it's with VFR aircraft or IFR aircraft, is the towers responsibility at a towered field.
@@harrisweigum6038 Two people who can both achieve the same thing, trying to both take responsibility after the fact. Not criticizing, just observing that it's a healthy attitude. Everyone should be doing what they can to keep everyone safe, whether it's them or someone else.
@@mattguthmiller are you saying he got confused because he was old?
@@harrisweigum6038 Well said, I Flew in and out of ATL for 20 years and spacing for that airport starts several hundred miles out.
Pretty Awesome Seeing Our 3+ Parked behind your plane in Jackson Hole. Enjoyed the Video! Safe Travels Matt.
"Hopefully we can get something to eat" While clutching a bag of Tide Pods. Thanks Matt :)
While flying a Bonanza.
He's got his essentials ready. Never know when those pods will come in handy. You could make a Tide pod igloo for shelter in an emergency.
I like how ATC is also the tour guild, great videos Matt!
Lol. Reminds me of the time my boss and his wife flew me and my wife to Martha's Vinyard. At the time he was flying our local airport's rental plane - a rode hard and put up wet Piper Arrow 180. When we landed I was actually marveling at all the fancy little jets parked near the airport buildings and was looking forward to getting a close look at them after we parked. But no. As boss taxied the plane near the fancy planes, the guy on the ground gave a hard, angry shake of his head and gestured us out to the 'back 40' and made us park next to a rusting trailer and a bunch of other 40-50 year old single engine prop planes.
Sadly, that noble Arrow 180 was crashed and destroyed by a student pilot a few months later (thankfully, no fatalities). My boss bought 1/4 of Cirrus sr22 after that, which I never got that chance ride in before one of his partners buried the prop in the runway at Lake Placid (also, thankfully no injuries!). I wonder what's next....
I’m a retired controller and a life long pilot. I get a little peeved too when I don’t get great service, but I deal with it myself. All in all we get great service on a daily basis and have little to complain about.
A36 pilot here. Depending on how much energy you've got, raising the gear when close to the runway can be a bad idea (1:40). There's a momentary but noticeable increase in drag when a Bonanza's gear comes up, and airplanes on the edge of high, hot and heavy have been known to settle back down onto the runway sans rollers. Better to wait a while and let the situation stabilize with the ground well below you.
As for Casper, at least it's not Rock Springs.
Definitely important to have plenty of speed before you do it, but hot/heavy/high it’ll take a mile to climb to 50ft with the gear down.
Excellent recommendation but doubt if it will be considered.
Of all the aviation channels I watch, this is BY FAR the best one. You guys provide amazing video scenes, perfect editing, and great music. Thanks!
Love the "your average minivan of the sky" vibe. Keep it up!
Matt I love your videos! You were one of the major influences on me to start my own TH-cam channel to share my aviation experiences. Thank you so much for the inspiration and what you do for the aviation community!
Matt has accomplished so much for a young man in aviation
Fly Boi right! I can’t imagine flying solo around the world period let alone at the age he did it!
You started off as 3 in sequence. Then 2, BUT you never reported that you had the Lear in sight until he was too close, that's why controller gave you a plan B. He did right to maintain spacing and safety. Kinda sucks the space was so busy that day but it happens. I'm sure the Lear was grateful ;)
A busy day flying!! Keep up the good videos Matt!!
Tower, possible ATC deviation, let me know when you’re ready to copy a number.
Wish this was a weekly Netflix series . Thanks Matt!
Always wondered what went on in GA cockpits. I’m a retired Navy pilot, flew props and jets off carriers, a former NetJets Sovereign driver and only experience with GA was landing at fields with lots of GA aircraft flying around. I’ll keep my opinion to myself for now, research this a bit. Entertaining video.
My initial thought something was up when the learjet was asked to keep speed up (170) on a 5 mile final and you were on the downwind still. That controller made a mistake, like they often do thinking a jet is going to be worlds faster than a bonanza getting to the runway. At least it wasn't a Cirrus Jet, you would have done 3 360's
😂
Golf Pilot when we are given instructions we need to follow them. The Lear would’ve overtaken him unless he was about to turn base himself. But 170 knots at 5 miles takes almost no time
Great video man, I sensed the controller was kissing ass a little as well because he realized he messed up:)
Tim Fitzgerald other way around listen to it again bonanza boy tried to cut off the Lear.
@@kenclark9888 That's a little bit patronising with the "Bonanza Boy" comment? I mean he has flown that plane around the world setting a record or two on the way! But you are correct about 5 miles disappearing in no time, I would guess at an average of 150Kn, 170, slowing to about 110 to actually land, would take about 2 minutes and the Bonanza doing a rate 1 turn would take about 2 minutes. ATC are always conscious of getting jets in before pistons as they churn up a lot of gas in a hold or go around and they moan about being delayed by the little guys! And their landing fees, here in UK, are a factor of probably 100 times more than ours! I had to wait for about 20 minutes for take off clearance at Biggin Hill once, as there was Bernie Ecclestone's Jet on Final, and some other guy in a Falcon, and he didn't even ask if I wanted to shut down? Since Formula One management moved in. they have been pushing the Lower end of GA out with high landing and parking fees! But what's new in aviation?
Cool little adventure once again Matt . Thanks for bringing me along with ya.
You're so lucky to have Rachael in your life. She seems great!!!
Controller was awesome, cautious doesn’t make him bad and he was extremely courteous.
Edited perfectly. These videos keep on getting better I was actually gutted when it ended. Superb Matt and team
Fun fact: JAC is the only commercial airport in the US inside a National Park (just inside Grand Teton NP). And it has a really beautiful passenger terminal that was renovated in the last decade. One of my fav airports to transit
Its interesting when you have wider conversations with ATC, I realise that everyone needs to stay professional but those titbits that show everyone is human are little gems, especially the tour.
Very cool with the tour guide on the radio showing you Mr. Rushmore and Crazy Horse....
This will probably get buried since I'm four weeks late to the party, but there are a couple red flags here that could be useful to learn from. Obviously in this case, the tower controller had a few slip-ups that led to the confusion. But equally, this confusion was preventable by the pilots both in the Learjet and in 7HP. As pilots, we all need to be responsible for maintaining situational awareness, and we always need double check ATC's instructions with our own situational awareness to make sure everything makes sense.
Here are a few key moments and my armchair analysis of what I think could have been done differently:
20:36 - Tower sequenced 7HP #3 behind the Learjet.
20:55 - Tower told the Learjet that he'd be following the Bonanza, and that the Bonanza was "close in, no factor for you." This should have raised red flags for the Learjet, since the Bonanza wasn't close in, and wasn't no factor to the Learjet--that was the Cirrus that was landing in front. It should also have raised red flags in 7HP, because just a bit before, tower had sequenced 7HP behind the Learjet and never informed 7HP of the change.
21:04 - Tower said "N7HP, looks like you're inside ZUGEN, number 2 following a VFR cirrus ... rwy 1 cleared to land number 2." ZUGEN is the final approach fix on the RNAV 1 into JAC. 7HP should have confirmed that the transmission was for him, since his mention of ZUGEN should have felt strange. He should also have confirmed the change in sequence from what was issued 30 seconds before. Equally, the pilot of the Learjet (who presumably had the approach plate in front of him) should have known that *he* was just inside ZUGEN and that the transmission was probably intended for him and *not* 7HP. He should have asked about this. He should also have asked about the change in sequence.
Maintaining situational awareness even (especially?) at a towered airport is one of those things that I hammer hard into my students. The airport where I teach combines lots of student pilots with tower trainees, which regularly results in some pretty interesting situations that are usually resolved by a quick radio call to confirm. Remember, when in doubt, ask. As shocking as it may be, pilots and controllers are both human. Both groups make mistakes, and both need to be watching out for each others' backs.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I think your diagnosis is spot on. It seems the "root cause" (if there is only one) was the controller confusing the two tails (..7HP and ..74HT are not too dissimilar) for the callout after ZUGEN. I think Matt generally does a good job balancing PIC duties with commentary, but if both aircraft had been practicing sterile cockpit procedures, it's likely one of them would have caught the slip-up as you described.
Exactly right James. I’m an “old guy”...retired ATC who 7 yrs later went to a contract tower. Bottom line however...the SYSTEM only works because both sides are doing their part the make it work.
I spent a summer towing and hopping glider rides at Jackson Hole. One of my years as an airport bum after I was fired from SEARS after 21 years and on my 50th birthday. Best thing that ever happened to me.
Hi Matt, that was great, I'll not repeat what others have said below but you wouldn't have the same adventures in a LearJet as you do in HP so ignore them! I think your pal in the cub deserves a medal for his resilience and endurance! Great scenery, love the US ATC and look forward to the next one! P.S. be interested to have a video showing us the G36 in more detail, performance envelope, fuel consumption, range etc and why you chose that over other high performance piston singles. Best wishes.
You have more flight time than I will ever have, but it looks like you're layering a lot of risks. Chatting with pax on takeoff, depending on ground effect in gusty weather for lift with gear up close to ground, dodging heavy weather rather than stopping short for the night. The list is a lot longer. Be safe! There are no old, bold (or complacent) pilots.
LMAO if you dont have a lot of hours then keep your mouth shut you have no clue about risks or ADM..... I'm sure you're a lot of fun to fly with, captain stick in the mud.
Bill, obviously you are damned right ... 11:40 gear up way too early ... however
comments of this kind rarely make any difference. I learn a lot from recreational pilot's videos for my own flying (thus I just subscribed to this channel), but I stopped preaching some time ago. Looking for a good example of airmanship? Try
"Missionary Bush pilot", and enjoy. Btw: nobody is perfect.
I understand what you mean but I dont agree. He waited until his IAS was higher than gusts to make sure they didn't drop. Raised gear and built speed perfectly for the same reason. Weather wasnt a huge factor in this flight really, hardly something someone so experienced cant deal with. I agree on the chatting on TO though, did seem a little relaxed but thats just me. I chat when Im up.
Bill R, Total time doesn't necessarily relate to understanding risks. Some learn from living through risks others evaluate possible risks to minimum issues that may be harmful to the successful outcome of a given flight.
ha......haha......LOL
I used to fly in a glider club at an airport which seasonally had a lot of private jet traffic. Of course we occasionally would have to cut them out on their final approach ( gliders obviously can't go around ). Man they hated our guts. Pretty tasty.
Billionaires have right-away over millionaires, and young up-n-comers gotta do 360's waiting their turn. It's written someplace in the FAR's, I'm sure of it.
Traffic is prioritized by speed and capability. Once on final there is no reorder...simply say 'unable' if asked to go around and land.
It's right there in the 7110.65 too, next to, controllers gotta do what controllers gotta do. (from a get em down in order of fast to slow this just makes sense. But I haven't watched that part of the clip yet. just speaking from 17 yrs ATC experience.
Right of way
Casper, Wyoming, Home of the Troopers Drum and Bugle Corps!
You are definitely one of my inspirations for trying to get a pilots license once I get out of college and have a stable income.
Great takeoff at 12mins into the video. I've never seen a GA plane takeoff at relatively high alt and at max gw takeoff before, nicely done!
Great video Matt! Always look forward to your next video.
As someone who has spent more time outside on foot in the mountains of Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, and Idaho than most people have spent outside their houses I highly suggest a good pair of leather boots like Irish Setter Elk Trackers. A pair of shoes is great for trails, but you're going to have a bad time if you ever want to see the REALLY neat stuff like abandoned mines, ghost towns and factories scattered throughout the draws and valleys of the ranges.
Spectacular views as always Matt including those storms on approach in Wyoming!
I love that controller; pointing out the sights!
A thought about navigating passes in the mountain west...I learned to fly in the Rockies and the high deserts of the west a decade and a half before the first iPhone so I am used to carrying a case full of paper charts. One thing I always carry is a Delorme Atlas and Gazetteer. It's not handy like a tablet or a phone but a book of topo maps is a great reference. The large format isn't as convenient to use if you're used to digital formats but being able to scan a large area of terrain in detail at once is, for me, invaluable.
LOL. The Lear was asked to do 170 knots, and you wanted to cut in front? Do you have an idea how much fuel burn jets have flying at low altitude, or even taxing on the ground? When I'm flying my piston toy at a non-towered airport I go out of my way to give jet traffic the shortest approach possible (usually long final off the RNAV). When I'm flying my jet, I expect the piston pilots to extend downwind a little if necessary (like you were asked to do) so that I can get in quicker flying the instrument approach rather than circling the pattern (burning $10-20/minute).
So basically you and the mighty Bonanza caught him off guard making that 5 mile point for base so fast. (Hence him telling the Lear to speed up!) He should have extended you further on the downwind ensuring you didn't turn base until you were adequately separated BEHIND the Lear as he originally instructed with placing you as number 3 in sequence. This could have all been avoided if he simply told the Cirrus and Lear to speed up and the mighty Bonanza to slow down 😄
As a Jackson native and one of the Ramp Rats at KJAC I can imagine it gets a little chaotic at times. There's no radar service, there's usually a line of jets every five miles all day every day, and the controllers have me yacking in their ear looking for towing clearances. Hey though, at least the airport got rid of landing fees for those of us below 12,500 gross! Now all you have to do is be able to find a spot to park.
You kill it with content.
Great video matt keep them coming , beautiful place
There is a significant difference in approach speed between a Lear and a bonanza.
Slow behind fast always works.
Additionally general aviation pilots have a very wide range of skills and reliability thus making them less reliable at following directions and clearing runways.
Clearly the Lear was moving fast on the parallel taxiway. That too was a good call.
Suck it up. That is not a cheap bonanza to be flying around in so the poor little guy shtick is a bit comical.
Ya, I'll get a word in edgewise, when I land there in my puny little RV-12. Might grab something to eat at Mc Donalds or a Costco hot dog if they have one in town, and buy some premium Mogas there too, to keep the 100LL crap out of my snowmobile engine.. Jackson, with it's people and new money, puts Aspen to shame, nowadays. :-)
Glad to see your back at it, Matt. Those new cameras are awesome.
ATC tour guide is a total bro.
Hey Matt! I’d like to thank you for making these videos I’m a pilot in training and your videos have inspired my passion for flight. I simply can’t thank you enough 😀🙏
I haven't had a restaurant meal since February, so even that aspect of the ep was thrilling. The rest of it--even more so. THANKS Matt. !!!
Another great video. Let's not be too hard on the controller. 👍
Would just average hard be enough?
@@alexandermenzies9954 I'd rather the controller work on too much spacing than too little. Also, we don't know who was in the jet and how demanding they might have been.
@@nothingtoseehere4026 It should also be noted that while it's Class D, there is no radar service in Jackson, the controller cannot actually see where planes are without scanning for them with his eyes.
great fun flying with you
Superb camera work and great editing. Nice job, gentleman. Subscribed!
Amazing video as always Matt! Great stuff. Thanks for keeping those of us in training motivated every day!
What a beautiful place Jackson Hole is we were there 58 years ago on our cross country trip to Ca and took that gondola ride to the top of the mountain. It is amazing from the air. Looking forward to the next video.
Awesome video Matt. Nicely handled and flown. ❤️
Having Burbank as my home base during my time in aviation, stuff like this is very common when you are mixing jet aircraft with light single engine aircraft. There are always last minute changes when your already set-up for landing, as they know in that moment that you cannot get you off the runway fast enough and they could force a go-around in the jet that is eating the seperation. Aircraft are always changing speed on the approach, so things like seperation change rapidly. They are often going to give priority to jet aircraft that would burn hundreds of dollars of fuel in a go-around.
Yes pretty much. A jet will not be happy to have to go around at a mountain airport for no real reason. A Lear would have enough power to not feel that safety was any issue at all, but it'd still be less than desirable. Great video though.
Exception video. Very enjoyable to watch!
"Welcome to Da' Hole" that's what they say down there. But honestly the hole is amazing I was down there not too long ago with some buddies on a ski trip in my piper tri pacer and you get there and it's all white out and you just see the white pure powder on the mountains and I remember saying to my buddies "whelp boys this is why we bought this plane together, for s**t like this, right". Great video
As someone in the medical field, I can say harvested organs are usually flown on small private jets and I’ve heard from the staff who carry the organs say they’re always given preferential service when landing and departing. It may not seem like much, but even a small delay can mean organs end up not being viable for transplant.
Robert Gaylord Yeah it’s sobering for sure.
what a freaking cool controller haha.
"Now that we got you out of the way for everybody, can you just leave?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Wow delighted this was not LHR or CDG :) Thank you for sharing.
Matt, you need to bring your plane to Ada and have it turbonormalized. Game changer when we did it.
Quick, get the Cub around the corner, you're spoiling the look of the apron. Ha ha.
My favorite of your videos to date! Thanks for sharing!
We’re you number two behind the Cirrus but then ATC wanted to turn you out and bring you back in again behind the Lear by having you execute a 360 so the faster Lear could get by ?
ATC didn’t explain thoroughly but that’s a fairly common practice for a slower aircraft in front of a faster one on final.
You were correct though. You were number two behind the Cirrus until ATC gave the turnout instruction and you accepted it.
Am I reading the situation correctly ?
This is one of your best vids! Love your Bonanza manufactured here in my hometown of Wichita, Kansas. Proud you chose the best!
Great stuff as always. Good to have something to cheer us all up with COVID effecting our lives!! Thanks for sharing.
Get it in some perspective. In my country you simply cannot just decide to go somewhere in your private aircraft. You file a flight plan the day before and you are given a landing slot at your destination. You do a weather confirmation the morning before your flight. Your course, height and speed are set for you. You either keep to that or you abort and return to your departure point. And thats even for the smallest local airport and all airspace is either civil or military control now. Commercial jets get top priority then commercial propeller, them private jets then private propellor. A casual trip is put at the bottom of the list.
I turned on base at Ellington Field one evening and ATC called me #2 for 2 T-38s 7 miles long final. I could see their landing lights over downtown Houston. I was close to final and they still beat me in.
Seemed pretty straight forward with the controller. Asked to report the Lear in sight and it wasn’t reported in sight by Matt before he made his base turn. Probably would have been ok if reported in sight sooner, but the window of opportunity was probably too close to safely let him land before the Lear.
Wish lookie had a youtube channel for the Cub. I wanna watch that footage
Love your videos Matt. Very professional and very ‘watchable’. Keep it up.
thanks for this.....most of us will never see this part of the country...so thanks for taking us along
9:05
when the only thing you have to eat after a long day of flying is a delicious bag of tide pods
I expected a gold runway at Wealthy airport. Disappointed.
They sprayed over it with black paint.. they've been having trouble with people chipping it away for the landing fees.
Always enjoy your videos.
Epic video, shame about the Learjet issue, but it is what it is. Thank you for taking your time to make this video. Rog from Wales 🏴
Should have just landed at driggs. One of the best airport restaurants you’ll ever see. And a grass runway to boot!
It's also way cheaper. I did all my primary flight training at KDIJ, it's a fun little airport.
I'd probably still land there like you did. But I understand your pleab comment. We were in Jackson exploring the Grand Teton's and Yellowstone in August pulling our RV this summer. It was nice but you definitely know that community caters to the wealthy. Cheers.
Excellent video as always sir !!
That wasn’t really that bad. Try summer rush hour at HTO or a summer Friday after at TEB. Napa is another that’s eye opening. There are tons more, but you guys did just fine👍. Enjoy what’s to come in the flying years ahead.
20:55 Yeah tower was all jacked up on this one. Hear he tells the jet to keep his speed up and he’ll be following a bonanza... then tells 7HP that he following the Cirrus and is #2.
@ 20:35 tower told you number three and then soon after cleared you to land behind the Cirrus on short final with the Learjet still on an extended straight in. Yes, he made that mistake, however, personally I would have simply asked for clarification. Except for that error, I thought the plan was a good one.....put you on an extended right downwind for Runway 1 for spacing behind the Learjet. He doesn’t know if you could land short enough to get off the runway in time for the Learjet to land.
Suggestion...don’t talk to your passengers when landing. Especially in a relatively complex situation like that. Listen to the radio and every single call to and from the other aircraft. Helps to better understand the big picture.
Definitely placed 3rd, and tower called for a LEFT 360 but let him continue a Right 360.
Great video.....Just goes to show things don't always go smoothly.
These last two video... wow.. well done!!!
Nice video ! What do you guys do for a living???
That’s a deal for the controller. He definitely cleared you to land #2 behind the Cirrus.
Ha, I'm just getting back into sim flying with the new FS2020 and flew into KJAC a few days ago in a C172. Super cool that it translates a bit. What a beautiful place.
Lol the top 1% must always go first buddy. Don’t you know that?😂😂 happened to me at Henderson NV
I love that Bonanza.
Great adventure! Nice scenery and very good piloting 👌
Best controller EVER!
Ellsworth approach is the best!
Was just there last week! Super friendly and helpful!
Sure piles on the "vocal fry" when talking on the radio ;)
Jackson tower " We don't want your kind here" :)
Hey matt, Love your videos man! They were the videos that got me and my sister started into aviation, and they really inspire us to go out and work hard so that we can become pilots, I don't know If you will see this but keep up the great work stay safe!
You were defo cleared #2 following the Cirrus.
What a cluster! You were definitely cleared 2nd after the Cirrus. I guess you will need to get you a Lear before coming back again. They'll have more respect for you.
The small square cameras with the lens that are mounted in this video are not in your gear list. What are those? They have a red button in the bottom lens and quite a large lens mounted.
Nice job under confusing circumstances.