9:13 counterpoint: if an entire class is saying how much they hate the playstyle of one hero tree and how they would rather reroll than play it, DON'T KEEP BUFFING IT! Take a look at DH's reactions to the aldrachi reaver buffs as an example. You guys keep saying we should complain to blizz to get changes. How are we supposed to give a more clear complaint than "dont even buff this part of our spec because it literally makes the spec unfun to play"? That should be a pretty big wake-up slap to blizzard.
@@endorush305 yup. It's not even like fel-scarred is a perfect hero tree or anything either. It's really pretty bland in design (demonsurge is just inner demon on more buttons) and the talents have multiple issues of their own, it's just that anything is better than aldrachi.
Regarding the raid kicks, I was in so many casual guilds with had the same conflict: some people thought the goal was to kill the bosses and some people thought the goal was to have fun. Some people wanted to kick the weak players, some people wanted to kick the complainers. The final result was almost always that each group ruined it for the other so that many people left. I think people (including me) need to be more honest about if they actually fit in a guild and if the guild is what they actually want. We are too complacent and too unwilling / scared to search for something new. Also, if your goals are not clear, you cannot be a successful raid.
This is exactly it. Some people care too much about gear some people don't care enough about gear. Some people want everyone to sweat 24/7 despite being a WR 900 guild and others are like "none of this dies before nerfs so relax" and others don't know their class, skills or standing in aoe/frontals or a single boss mechanic. There's a happy medium but if the guild doesn't set out what they want then enforce that then yeah it will eventually tear itself apart as cliques form.
I agree with Dorki on their M+ vs raid tuning take at the start of the pod and would love to hear him speak on that more as the resident M+ expert. Very curious to hear more of their opinions of how to address that
yea, it really is an issue. Especially later in the saison when Raid is very much irrelevant and people are still pushing M+ it sucks when there´s no tuning anymore for classes lacking in M+ just because apparently they do somewhat ok in raid.
This is definitely false lol. Dorki has some good takes but he is definitely the one that has the most elitest takes for sure out of all of then@Fermpm
The patreon question about demoting, like any performance based roll, there should be a “hey you’ve got to step it up” discussion before the kick. Some people really turn it on when they feel the pressure.
So on Nexus Princess... I've only done the fight on heroic so far... BUT IT IS SO FREAKING GOOD! It's one of the best fights ever made to me, the positioning, the movement, the simplicity. Everything it's amazing, simple boss, does very few things... She does more of the same every phase, no need to learn more mechanics just one mechanic that gets harder and harder as the fight progresses, it's basically Rashok but purple.
As your average heroic raider I gotta say Ky'veza has been one of the funnest bosses to progress ever. Challenging but fair and shaking around the room after placing the portals correctly felt different and enjoyable.
Same, we finally got her down last week and it was a trip. I raged at newer players for killing others with orbs, and melee need to figure out how to know they were targeted better. But as far as damage / tuning, it's a fantastic wall boss I'd take anytime. Single target, us vs. her.
@@briantown6716 I don't think he's out of touch. I think he just doesn't care about the people who are stuck in lower key levels and doesn't pretend to care either. Anyone who's been following the situation knows there are real issues which need tweaking, but one of those issues is people being both entitled and terrible at the game. "I've unsubbed for the first time in 10 years blizz!" What the fuck have you been doing for 10 years if you cant even time 7s? Text fucking other men at Goldshire Inn?
As a former "demoting/no longer invited to raid guy", man does that role blow. Had 3 different people over the years cry when I told them they no longer had raid spots. The G Kick talk has led to a lot of yelling.
I like the idea of a ramping death affix, 1 sec per death additive. You die once you lose 1 seconds 2nd time 2 secs and counting. And make it player specific, so if your tank dies 1 time it's 1 but if your DPS has already died 5 times their next death would subtract 6 seconds up to a max of 15. Would definitely be better and more forgiving to players than what is current.
11:20 Brew I think needs some new talent functionality to 1. Make them less squishy on pull and 2. An actual cheat death to make their big damage swings due to dodge chance less punishing. Having to pop defensives at full health pre pull is super unintuitive and feels really bad, giving them a dr or stagger increase or something on pull would smooth out their damage intake a lot. A mild cheat death would do wonders too, even something as tame as healing for 25% of your current stagger when you would die on a 1 minute cd would feel great. You can put them on choice nodes with stuff like ox stance, zen meditation, or explosive keg that way you have to chose between a more forgiving playstyle with smoother damage intake or a more variable but numerically tankier build
That applies to lots of tanks. Blood dks dying on pull because no RP, warriors getting clapped in the back while grouping, DHs jumping into packs and getting obliterated by attacks to their back, etc. Start of pulls are usually very scary, no matter what tank. If anyone starts the pull without pressing defensives at full health, bad things are likely to happen.
I love how the whole "Dont ever do that"-Part of how to manage certain people in your enviroment perfectly describes 90% of Guilds that dont touch mythic.
Pugged up to 2.4k rio as heals and I've had mixed experiences. Now that I'm pushing 10s I'm seeing a lot of the issues. How do you prog a boss and get better when you essentially have to 1 shot a boss or the grp breaks after 1 wipe with the guile bs. Remove it completely.
The lack of a way to do practice runs reliably is a big issue. They need to remove the keystone system entirely and just let us walk into a dungeon, select a key level at the font, and send it. Add in some shit where you have to build up the level it lets you do over multiple runs like delves and we're chillin.
@@ispear6337 yea, i feel like they should just use the delve tier system for m+ . can also make it dungeon specific instead of global, but i think if u did a +11 stonevault u should be able to attempt a +12 stonevault whenever u want
@@ispear6337 EXACTLY been yelling this since SL REMOVE THE DEPLETION SYSTEM. Welcome to the team. Spread it everywhere as it's our only chance to get them to take note.
Honestly the best thing you can do is just record runs. When you get to the tough boss youll get to watch vod and see things like movement, cd management, timings, etc. And at some point you see the dps died with iceblock available, or standing on poop during aoe damage, etc. and its 100% not your fault.
Been asking that question for so long. What does the key system actually add? Why not just interact with the podium at the start and select key level. If you 2 chest a 4 you can skip to 6 and don't have to do a 5. The randomness in what you can get as a key is also just so ?? I never understood what this system added to the game just let people do the dungeons they want to do.
32:30 simple, we want CE, there is not enough people playing so we have to switch people around, teach new people the mechanics and overall the bosses are just tuned poorly only for RTWF guilds with little to no tuning afterwards.
The sole reason Brew feels shit in M+ is the mastery nerf we got. They need to alter how Attk.P. vs Dodge % increase mastery gives for Brew. In BFA brew could work around with Crit/Vers/Mastery depending on what content it did.: Lots of AA -> Mastery = Crit -> Vers (we could go as high as 33% mastery with medium investment - Fortified vs Tyranical in M+ depndant). Big hits, lower AA count (mostly Raid): Crit -> Vers -> Mastery Any time magic damge is big compared to the rest above: Crit = Vers -> Mastery. They've made many changes to mob damage skills and not as many are dodgable like before. Dodge and its execution should be rewarded in Brew as it was in BFA (best example is King's Rest council fight - dodging the 200% inc debuff, or Tree boss in Waycrest Mannor again dodging the tank buster with proper timing). Currently the only thing going for brew is Stagger and its management, which of itself is an issue only for new Brew players and becomes something you don't thinkg about that much with practice.
Thank you for talking about Brewmaster :) I really try to get 0,1% title and would like to get this class some changes..i check every bluepost :( the dmgnerf last season with such a small playerbase was a slap in the face...its either no changes or something rediculous
I’m looking forward to actually getting to start pugging 12s. Been sitting at 2700+ all 11s well done with the mindset that I shouldn’t even bother going in to 12s. Blizz bosses changes all feel very well places also. I’m playing healer and there are some bosses that do feel like outliers and they all seem to get addressed quickly. Blizz is killing it.
Death timer needs to scale, but it should be 5 base, then .5 sec for each death up to 15 cap. Prevents the yolo death squad runs they wanna avoid, but isnt so punishing that 1 wipe bricks the key
I would be the kickee these days, I was a mythic raid healer but I burnt out about 5-6 years ago, now the idea of mythic raid healing fills me with horror. I suppose it's like the Yips in golf, positionally poor, decision making is slow and too rigid in thinking at mythic level. It's horrible to acknowledge but also at the same time it means you can find your comfort level (Heroic). My current raid guild is chilled with me slacking on the bench, I'm comfortable with it too. Interestingly my tanking has improved significantly, Probably because of my healing experiences, and would indeed consider raiding as a tank, though we have two great tanks, so not gonna insert myself there. The TLDR? Maybe those players that don't perform to level in their current role need to either consider a class or role change? There is a great deal of psychology in finding and fitting the right jigsaw pieces which is fascinating. I would never kick a guy from guild if they had good vibes but would advise that they consider themselves how they could best serve the guild. Any real team player with remove ego from the equation. Knowing that you were really good at something and then have to own that you aren't anymore is a painful process. Maybe being older than the average player also helps in this process. Still not pleasant ;)
I was twice the guy who said to guild "we are not made for this" in spam of 2 different expacs and different guilds. Both times relationship soured. We didnt kill either of them (hc anubarak 25 and hc rag ) in og game
I think I prefer having more bosses with smaller pull counts. The pull counts on these bosses are great for the last 2 or even 3 bosses, but for me there needs to be more 40-60 pull bosses to make it feel more interesting
I thought that was insanely disrespectful. They make a significant amount of money from this podcast especially considering the amount of time put in. not giving the podcast his full attention is disrespectful to the listeners and his co-hosts.
What is weird is when Max says "It's an insanely hard raid" I totally get what he means, for Liquid obviously that is true but isn't it kind of insane that only like 5 guilds are actually pulling it even close to that? the nerfs are so huge that they have shaved like 400 total wipes off of the raid
Well aside from the fact Max making it sound harder than it is makes him and his team who won seem better in comparison to everyone else and I'm not taking anything away from the guys they were by and far the best team this race. But this is what happens every race, there's like 4-5 guilds literally miles ahead of everyone else until the nerfs start landing.
For what it's worth, I enjoy the yap style of podcast. The Bench has their own niche, but PoddyC always feels like hangin with the boys just riffin stories and personal experience and having a chill time. S tier podcast for while playing games or driving to work imo. Beyond that as another gamer with ADHD I just don't feel like Max would be able to hit his stride if it was super omega structured, the brain works best when it's allowed to flow
Raid was so good to watch. I now know I shouldn’t ever judge what is possible by what I see on the first couple days of watching. Totally thought nerfs required before you smashed it.
Regarading the 1000 pulls discussion: A lot of guilds have people in their roster that are just significantly worse at the game than the rest of the group. Maybe even 2 or 3 of them. BUT ... They are friends with the raidlead and as such 'Who cares'. The worst case scenario here is even an officer group that wont change anything about it and instead attack the people who point it out. Regardless, all of that simply boils down to two aspects: People get carried due to x reason and the officers suck big d.
I don't think separating balance is good unless it's absolutely mandatory for a class to function. When you have more and more skills that start to function completely differently in different content (raid, m+ pvp) it creates a massive spaghetti web for the developers that they have to tip-toe around in.
what do you suggest then? cuz this seems like a great choice imo. they did it with pvp waaay back in the day and people initially had the same "this will never work" mindset, but now look at it. blizz needs to do something, cuz class balance has always been an issue and it gets worse with every expac and the following seasons.
@@mokustabby4865 I suggest that people just get used to minigames like m+ and pvp being slightly unbalanced. If you want a balanced and competitive esport go play dota, counter strike, or a fighting game.
they rly need to remove the 15 sec thing,dying because you literaly cant see frontals or they for some reason do it instantly isnt fun,the punishment that YOU DIE,is big enough,all your dps is gone once your dead,you already lost time on that,and its a lot of lost dmg,it isnt a raid where a death may not even matter,one death in m+ is 30% dps gone,if your with an evoker even more
@@joakimjohnsson1020 lemme guess,you only ever played range?because some frontals look just like the floor,some clip in the floor,and good luck seeing anything if you have certain specs in the game that makes the floor look like a rainbow,i like that wow uses realistic teleraphs,not like wildstar did,but maybe have an optional setting for it if its gonna kill you
I was a terrible player starting in df. I was the person who had no skill preventing progression. I wanted to not down the team. But I didn't have the skill to play yet and kept getting invited because they were nice. It was very stressful for me. I ended up hating raid night but " did it for the guild". They should have benched me.
Please consider releasing the poddy anytime other than Friday afternoon. A lot of people work M-F and listen to podcasts during the commute. Friday afternoon releases mean the episode is 3 days old by the time these people can listen
Ehh, whether it’s out Friday or not… not a problem. If you want commuter Monday listen, wait until Monday to listen. Nothing here is necessary information, it’s all fun info.
Remember when ppl complained about 20-25 five were too easy that you didn't need a healer cuz defensives and pulls died to fast. Well, this season is especially designed for high end m+'s players who complained a lot about the difficult. Now is turned around to play too safe.
Warlocks feel neglected this tier, none of our hero talents have gotten touched neither has affliction and our anni patch consists of a bug fix for a pet not attacking its target, an icon update for soul rot and a aoe nerf for destro. Thats it!
In regards to the complaining about class tuning, it genuinely seems like the numbers they put out are 1.) WAY Off 2.) They made errors in their calculations Not sure how this even happens as they should have the tools to be able to accurately tune the output of specs... As an example, for BM Hunter, it was Blizzards intention to buff AoE damage while leaving single target "reletivley neutral". We weren't told that this change was supposed to be net natural for ST until Monday when they corrected their errors. The initial post on Thurs/Fri was showing a 10% ST nerf when in the pure ST build due to an error on Blizzards part which is why it caused a massive outrage lol. They forgot that the majority of our damage in ST is coming from 'pet summons' (dire beast, dark hounds, etc) and not just 'pets'
There are specs in the game that after 3 consecutive buffs, they still rank at the bottom. As someone that works in big spreadsheets and does a ton of connected calculations via looksups, index matches etc. I honestly can not understand why Blizzard is THIS BAD when it comes to buffing underperforming specs.
Dorki is a funny dude. His takes are always biased because he has a static m+ team that abuses meta classes. People trying to play their classes normally get the short end of the stick because certain class kits are simply not tailored towards m+. More podcasts without Dorki in it, thanks.
I would love to hear the input by the group of the LiquidReminders addon being behind a paywall even tho that is against blizzards terms of service, but they dont enforce it. I think its worth the 10$ of course but just curious what these guys think of that. The community is going nuts over it
Just DBM for the raid group. He has not cleared. He doesn't deserve to have the ridiculous and gate keepey opinions that he does seeing as he does actually nothing.
I'm gonna nitpick here. If they keep buffing San'layn untill it's the best tree, suddenly ALL of my upgraded gear and ALL my crafts suck, because it needs pretty much as much haste as possible while Deathbringer needs as close to 0 haste as possible. So that'd be rough. Not sure how to solve that though..
While the recent changes are good changes, blizzard really needs to start putting space between themselves and community and make the game they want to make and make changes they feel are necessary. We've hit a point where the devs have listened to the community too much, too long, and the end-game's an absolute trainwreck for the casual to the midcore playerbase and TWW season 1 is the culmination of too many bongrip cooks.
Agree with the comments, episode definitely felt low energy with a lot of out of touch takes. Sucks to say, am I patron and these kinda episodes are having me consider continuing
11 years ago Greg Street said "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We found the opposite. :(" Were already back to the classic blizzard "were not wrong, it's the players who are wrong" type shit
@@xYiazmatx people didnt like full classic experience and wanted changes very quickly, they then got changes for burning crusade and wotlk. but since blizzard commited to the zero changes vanilla experience, a lot of people were unhappy and wanted to see things change like world buff stacking etc
It feels like people are having the same issue they always had which is that pugging is ass. The advice has always been to find a guild to rock with and make some friends, but there are apparently a lot of wow players who play wow solo. I’m having a blast doing keys with 2 friends and we have no issues clearing 9s and 10s so far.
Healing them has been miserable, I've only done a few because i've been actively avoiding them and just pugging heroic each week, tried siege of boralus 5 in a pug, wipe fest, everyone getting one tapped by nearly everything or you get overlapped abilities comboing people outright. Tried a mists 6, DK tank paper thin window wiper health bar. It's just not fun to heal. I don't want to try a higher key and just get complained at.
Personally haven't struggled that much even pugging but I'm playing the meta healer. I can see how dps not using personals and using cc/stuns make keys untimable. Wish dps were more self-aware for sure.
@@fp3977 I'm playing holy priest, we have decent sustain, I think I just found myself trying to heal impossible to heal damage, the first boss in siege several times he was pulling me into the bombardment, so he's standing on the bombardment and then pulls you in, and you get one shot for about 5m damage, most of them seem to be like that where you get these really horrible overlaps. I don't want to try a 9 assuming anyone would invite me to a 9 with a 450 score, and just end up ruining their key. I don't think I heal that badly, it's just that I can imagine you go past 7 and even the weak abilities in the lower keys that hit like a wet noodle will start basically killing people. Perhaps I've just been unlucky so far. I don't mind raiding as I feel like you can move if you have to and the healing doesn't stop but in M+ it's only you healing so when you move and need to stop to save someone, either you die or they die. I like a challenge, but I feel like the window of opportunity is tiny in m+. either it goes well and people kick what they should kick and avoid what they should avoid or you're breaking your fingers trying to keep people alive. I think the last time I did high M+ keys was in legion, even then it felt like most of the difficulty just rolls down hill to the healer, you have a bunch of affixes that essentially just make it harder to heal. we're at the point where for me, the fun of healing has been removed entirely from m+.
Aldrachi reaver seems underplayed??? it must be a numbers thing, lets buff it!!! what? it wasnt numbers? it was already simming ahead? you mean our dogshit dev team made ANOTHER hero tree that feels like shit? Are we wrong? NO! its the players who are wrong!
It's completely fine to do the entire campaign at normal. If you want to go to hard, wait until you do your class stuff at 15 (most classes) or 25 (necro). Here's the reason. So much XP is built into campaign quest completion that the XP gain from going to higher difficulties...doesn't matter as much as you might think once you factor in increased kill times. Sure if you're leveling through helltide blasting, it makes sense to up world tier for the xp gain. But you should probably just blast through the campaign at normal and then start messing around with difficulties afterwards.
I love how they look down upon the fight design in ffxiv, then talk about how good Nexus Princess is...when that fight is as scripted as I've ever seen any fight in wow. It's literally more scripted than most savage fights in ffxiv.
Dorki just slamming keys during the podcast is so funny. Never change
9:13 counterpoint: if an entire class is saying how much they hate the playstyle of one hero tree and how they would rather reroll than play it, DON'T KEEP BUFFING IT! Take a look at DH's reactions to the aldrachi reaver buffs as an example.
You guys keep saying we should complain to blizz to get changes. How are we supposed to give a more clear complaint than "dont even buff this part of our spec because it literally makes the spec unfun to play"? That should be a pretty big wake-up slap to blizzard.
This. I rerolled frost dk b/c of dh hero talents like half the discord
@@endorush305 yup. It's not even like fel-scarred is a perfect hero tree or anything either. It's really pretty bland in design (demonsurge is just inner demon on more buttons) and the talents have multiple issues of their own, it's just that anything is better than aldrachi.
Crying to blizzard about changes DHs want barely even helps because we don't have content creators with enough clout for them to even care
@@zuralani1 ive not played DH since season 3 DF but aldrachi seems pretty sick from how it reads
do any DH players like pressing throw glaive at all? the most fun i ever had on DH was with the autocast throw glaive tier set from amirdrassil
Regarding the raid kicks, I was in so many casual guilds with had the same conflict: some people thought the goal was to kill the bosses and some people thought the goal was to have fun. Some people wanted to kick the weak players, some people wanted to kick the complainers. The final result was almost always that each group ruined it for the other so that many people left. I think people (including me) need to be more honest about if they actually fit in a guild and if the guild is what they actually want. We are too complacent and too unwilling / scared to search for something new. Also, if your goals are not clear, you cannot be a successful raid.
This is exactly it. Some people care too much about gear some people don't care enough about gear.
Some people want everyone to sweat 24/7 despite being a WR 900 guild and others are like "none of this dies before nerfs so relax" and others don't know their class, skills or standing in aoe/frontals or a single boss mechanic.
There's a happy medium but if the guild doesn't set out what they want then enforce that then yeah it will eventually tear itself apart as cliques form.
A 20:10 01à
I agree with Dorki on their M+ vs raid tuning take at the start of the pod and would love to hear him speak on that more as the resident M+ expert. Very curious to hear more of their opinions of how to address that
Less dorki takes = better episodes.
yea, it really is an issue. Especially later in the saison when Raid is very much irrelevant and people are still pushing M+ it sucks when there´s no tuning anymore for classes lacking in M+ just because apparently they do somewhat ok in raid.
@@casualscroller8261 be quiet, horrible take. Dorki is the only reasonable person in this podcast.
This is definitely false lol. Dorki has some good takes but he is definitely the one that has the most elitest takes for sure out of all of then@Fermpm
@@Fermpm if you open real wide I bet he’ll finish in your throat
The patreon question about demoting, like any performance based roll, there should be a “hey you’ve got to step it up” discussion before the kick. Some people really turn it on when they feel the pressure.
So on Nexus Princess... I've only done the fight on heroic so far... BUT IT IS SO FREAKING GOOD! It's one of the best fights ever made to me, the positioning, the movement, the simplicity.
Everything it's amazing, simple boss, does very few things... She does more of the same every phase, no need to learn more mechanics just one mechanic that gets harder and harder as the fight progresses, it's basically Rashok but purple.
the bnet notification at 5:13 caught me off guard thought i was goin mental, respect
Those chapter names at the end are absolute gold, GL fronk
As your average heroic raider I gotta say Ky'veza has been one of the funnest bosses to progress ever. Challenging but fair and shaking around the room after placing the portals correctly felt different and enjoyable.
Same, we finally got her down last week and it was a trip. I raged at newer players for killing others with orbs, and melee need to figure out how to know they were targeted better. But as far as damage / tuning, it's a fantastic wall boss I'd take anytime. Single target, us vs. her.
"Everyone's out here pugging 11s easily..well not easy, but reasonable because you are 2 chesting them"
Man of the people :)
I get he's talking about the difficulty jump from a single level but man comes across so out of touch too haha
Like top 0.5% or something are all timed 11s atm haha, a week ago it was literally title range.
@@briantown6716 I don't think he's out of touch. I think he just doesn't care about the people who are stuck in lower key levels and doesn't pretend to care either. Anyone who's been following the situation knows there are real issues which need tweaking, but one of those issues is people being both entitled and terrible at the game.
"I've unsubbed for the first time in 10 years blizz!" What the fuck have you been doing for 10 years if you cant even time 7s? Text fucking other men at Goldshire Inn?
Considering these wild boys can time +3s of that range before and not just +2 honestly speaks for itself lowkey. IMO
@@briantown6716 this indeed
Bro I thought the title was “Why is everyone so hard” lmaooo 💀
depletin' keys = everyone's bricked up.
Lmao
Stay small
Dorkin
As a former "demoting/no longer invited to raid guy", man does that role blow. Had 3 different people over the years cry when I told them they no longer had raid spots. The G Kick talk has led to a lot of yelling.
200 pull prog and Dorki says "I want to get off Mr. Bone's Wild Ride."
I like the idea of a ramping death affix, 1 sec per death additive. You die once you lose 1 seconds 2nd time 2 secs and counting. And make it player specific, so if your tank dies 1 time it's 1 but if your DPS has already died 5 times their next death would subtract 6 seconds up to a max of 15. Would definitely be better and more forgiving to players than what is current.
11:20 Brew I think needs some new talent functionality to 1. Make them less squishy on pull and 2. An actual cheat death to make their big damage swings due to dodge chance less punishing. Having to pop defensives at full health pre pull is super unintuitive and feels really bad, giving them a dr or stagger increase or something on pull would smooth out their damage intake a lot. A mild cheat death would do wonders too, even something as tame as healing for 25% of your current stagger when you would die on a 1 minute cd would feel great. You can put them on choice nodes with stuff like ox stance, zen meditation, or explosive keg that way you have to chose between a more forgiving playstyle with smoother damage intake or a more variable but numerically tankier build
That applies to lots of tanks. Blood dks dying on pull because no RP, warriors getting clapped in the back while grouping, DHs jumping into packs and getting obliterated by attacks to their back, etc. Start of pulls are usually very scary, no matter what tank. If anyone starts the pull without pressing defensives at full health, bad things are likely to happen.
as someone who just went through being alienated in a guild, just straight up be blunt with that person (it fucking sucks)
I love how the whole "Dont ever do that"-Part of how to manage certain people in your enviroment perfectly describes 90% of Guilds that dont touch mythic.
Missed you guys!
Pugged up to 2.4k rio as heals and I've had mixed experiences. Now that I'm pushing 10s I'm seeing a lot of the issues. How do you prog a boss and get better when you essentially have to 1 shot a boss or the grp breaks after 1 wipe with the guile bs. Remove it completely.
The lack of a way to do practice runs reliably is a big issue. They need to remove the keystone system entirely and just let us walk into a dungeon, select a key level at the font, and send it. Add in some shit where you have to build up the level it lets you do over multiple runs like delves and we're chillin.
@@ispear6337 yea, i feel like they should just use the delve tier system for m+ . can also make it dungeon specific instead of global, but i think if u did a +11 stonevault u should be able to attempt a +12 stonevault whenever u want
@@ispear6337 EXACTLY been yelling this since SL REMOVE THE DEPLETION SYSTEM.
Welcome to the team. Spread it everywhere as it's our only chance to get them to take note.
Honestly the best thing you can do is just record runs. When you get to the tough boss youll get to watch vod and see things like movement, cd management, timings, etc. And at some point you see the dps died with iceblock available, or standing on poop during aoe damage, etc. and its 100% not your fault.
Been asking that question for so long. What does the key system actually add? Why not just interact with the podium at the start and select key level. If you 2 chest a 4 you can skip to 6 and don't have to do a 5. The randomness in what you can get as a key is also just so ?? I never understood what this system added to the game just let people do the dungeons they want to do.
32:30 simple, we want CE, there is not enough people playing so we have to switch people around, teach new people the mechanics and overall the bosses are just tuned poorly only for RTWF guilds with little to no tuning afterwards.
I often see mid patch tuning for raids kick in then guilds prog proper, so hang in there
What is a RCW guild? I've only ever heard them referred to as HoF/CE/RtWF/Top 100
The sole reason Brew feels shit in M+ is the mastery nerf we got. They need to alter how Attk.P. vs Dodge % increase mastery gives for Brew. In BFA brew could work around with Crit/Vers/Mastery depending on what content it did.:
Lots of AA -> Mastery = Crit -> Vers (we could go as high as 33% mastery with medium investment - Fortified vs Tyranical in M+ depndant).
Big hits, lower AA count (mostly Raid): Crit -> Vers -> Mastery
Any time magic damge is big compared to the rest above: Crit = Vers -> Mastery.
They've made many changes to mob damage skills and not as many are dodgable like before. Dodge and its execution should be rewarded in Brew as it was in BFA (best example is King's Rest council fight - dodging the 200% inc debuff, or Tree boss in Waycrest Mannor again dodging the tank buster with proper timing). Currently the only thing going for brew is Stagger and its management, which of itself is an issue only for new Brew players and becomes something you don't thinkg about that much with practice.
32:10 the problem is if you take a break the guild likely just falls apart.
Thank you for talking about Brewmaster :) I really try to get 0,1% title and would like to get this class some changes..i check every bluepost :( the dmgnerf last season with such a small playerbase was a slap in the face...its either no changes or something rediculous
I’m looking forward to actually getting to start pugging 12s.
Been sitting at 2700+ all 11s well done with the mindset that I shouldn’t even bother going in to 12s.
Blizz bosses changes all feel very well places also. I’m playing healer and there are some bosses that do feel like outliers and they all seem to get addressed quickly.
Blizz is killing it.
Thanks to Max for coming up with the idea to help get Gilded Crests in M+ 8's. Keep that thinking cap on, because you have great original ideas.
Trill aka Mr. World of Warcraft is the most dominant giga gamer the world has ever produced.
Dorki and pugging 11’s, Max and the tier is over…there is no man of the people
Pugging 11s is absolutely possible if you're not shit at the game lol
The smush of keys made the progression of difficulty more chunky rather than gradual. I think it's psychologically taking it's toll.
Death timer needs to scale, but it should be 5 base, then .5 sec for each death up to 15 cap. Prevents the yolo death squad runs they wanna avoid, but isnt so punishing that 1 wipe bricks the key
42:30 im that guy in my guild. 😂
I would be the kickee these days, I was a mythic raid healer but I burnt out about 5-6 years ago, now the idea of mythic raid healing fills me with horror. I suppose it's like the Yips in golf, positionally poor, decision making is slow and too rigid in thinking at mythic level. It's horrible to acknowledge but also at the same time it means you can find your comfort level (Heroic).
My current raid guild is chilled with me slacking on the bench, I'm comfortable with it too. Interestingly my tanking has improved significantly, Probably because of my healing experiences, and would indeed consider raiding as a tank, though we have two great tanks, so not gonna insert myself there. The TLDR? Maybe those players that don't perform to level in their current role need to either consider a class or role change?
There is a great deal of psychology in finding and fitting the right jigsaw pieces which is fascinating. I would never kick a guy from guild if they had good vibes but would advise that they consider themselves how they could best serve the guild. Any real team player with remove ego from the equation.
Knowing that you were really good at something and then have to own that you aren't anymore is a painful process. Maybe being older than the average player also helps in this process. Still not pleasant ;)
*moonkin weeping*
Pres got nerf so GL to the guilds that didnt clear Queen before it too. The healing throughput is crazy on her.
I was twice the guy who said to guild "we are not made for this" in spam of 2 different expacs and different guilds. Both times relationship soured. We didnt kill either of them (hc anubarak 25 and hc rag ) in og game
Tettles wouldn't mess up the recording
I think I prefer having more bosses with smaller pull counts. The pull counts on these bosses are great for the last 2 or even 3 bosses, but for me there needs to be more 40-60 pull bosses to make it feel more interesting
Reducing crests based on deaths or time is going to just make people brick the key faster.
Disc priest has heavy raid-m+ tuning variance.
Definitely thought Dorks wasn’t saying much this podcast and then we find out he’s just hackin away keys in the background lol
I thought that was insanely disrespectful. They make a significant amount of money from this podcast especially considering the amount of time put in. not giving the podcast his full attention is disrespectful to the listeners and his co-hosts.
What is weird is when Max says "It's an insanely hard raid" I totally get what he means, for Liquid obviously that is true but isn't it kind of insane that only like 5 guilds are actually pulling it even close to that? the nerfs are so huge that they have shaved like 400 total wipes off of the raid
Well aside from the fact Max making it sound harder than it is makes him and his team who won seem better in comparison to everyone else and I'm not taking anything away from the guys they were by and far the best team this race.
But this is what happens every race, there's like 4-5 guilds literally miles ahead of everyone else until the nerfs start landing.
46:10 quiet kicking is a real problem tho
For what it's worth, I enjoy the yap style of podcast. The Bench has their own niche, but PoddyC always feels like hangin with the boys just riffin stories and personal experience and having a chill time. S tier podcast for while playing games or driving to work imo. Beyond that as another gamer with ADHD I just don't feel like Max would be able to hit his stride if it was super omega structured, the brain works best when it's allowed to flow
The first huge step to making keystones and puglife better, is to eliminate key depletion. Until then, the M+ community will remain a toxic cesspool
Raid was so good to watch. I now know I shouldn’t ever judge what is possible by what I see on the first couple days of watching. Totally thought nerfs required before you smashed it.
rip brewmaster
@6:10 Warrior tried. Warrior cried.
50:40. Sometimes I think they are stupid.
Regarading the 1000 pulls discussion: A lot of guilds have people in their roster that are just significantly worse at the game than the rest of the group. Maybe even 2 or 3 of them. BUT ... They are friends with the raidlead and as such 'Who cares'. The worst case scenario here is even an officer group that wont change anything about it and instead attack the people who point it out. Regardless, all of that simply boils down to two aspects: People get carried due to x reason and the officers suck big d.
zbox are out of their minds those guys put so many pulls onto bosses
The hero talent buffs only work for some. Aldrachi reaver needs a complete rework, no one will play it.
Just made basically the same comment.
I don't think separating balance is good unless it's absolutely mandatory for a class to function. When you have more and more skills that start to function completely differently in different content (raid, m+ pvp) it creates a massive spaghetti web for the developers that they have to tip-toe around in.
what do you suggest then? cuz this seems like a great choice imo. they did it with pvp waaay back in the day and people initially had the same "this will never work" mindset, but now look at it. blizz needs to do something, cuz class balance has always been an issue and it gets worse with every expac and the following seasons.
So it would just be difficult? Or completely impossible?
The path of exile devs make the WoW devs look like complete monkeys and PoE is free to play.
@@mokustabby4865 I suggest that people just get used to minigames like m+ and pvp being slightly unbalanced. If you want a balanced and competitive esport go play dota, counter strike, or a fighting game.
@@driiifter What is your point here? PoE is not WoW, and the balance in PoE is infinitely worse than WoW's.
What’s with these Bench haters in the comments? Is this a bit or are people unironically taking sides
It’s a bit
It’s a joke, they both love each other. No real hate
Honest feedback gets deleted from the comment section unfortunately
WE HATE THE BENCH, BENCH = WALMART GRRR
@@Tyfwowwhat feedback besides “too much yapping?”
they rly need to remove the 15 sec thing,dying because you literaly cant see frontals or they for some reason do it instantly isnt fun,the punishment that YOU DIE,is big enough,all your dps is gone once your dead,you already lost time on that,and its a lot of lost dmg,it isnt a raid where a death may not even matter,one death in m+ is 30% dps gone,if your with an evoker even more
”Cant see frontals” lol get good scrub
@@joakimjohnsson1020 lemme guess,you only ever played range?because some frontals look just like the floor,some clip in the floor,and good luck seeing anything if you have certain specs in the game that makes the floor look like a rainbow,i like that wow uses realistic teleraphs,not like wildstar did,but maybe have an optional setting for it if its gonna kill you
Can you make some tweets about monks Max? Specifically mistweavers and windwalkers.
I was a terrible player starting in df. I was the person who had no skill preventing progression. I wanted to not down the team. But I didn't have the skill to play yet and kept getting invited because they were nice. It was very stressful for me. I ended up hating raid night but " did it for the guild". They should have benched me.
What caused you to start playing in DF?
@@SalvLav my partner who has played wow for years asked me to play.
max looks like he's in another realm during this. anywhere else but where he actually is heh
yapplebees 👍
@12:00 Can call the talent Dumb Luck or Stumble
just FYI that's not the definition of insanity.
Max has a large amount of bad takes.
Please consider releasing the poddy anytime other than Friday afternoon. A lot of people work M-F and listen to podcasts during the commute. Friday afternoon releases mean the episode is 3 days old by the time these people can listen
What about the rest of the world? Just about you? Selfish.
@@stelthy3450hold up, let him cook
Ehh, whether it’s out Friday or not… not a problem. If you want commuter Monday listen, wait until Monday to listen. Nothing here is necessary information, it’s all fun info.
Remember when ppl complained about 20-25 five were too easy that you didn't need a healer cuz defensives and pulls died to fast. Well, this season is especially designed for high end m+'s players who complained a lot about the difficult. Now is turned around to play too safe.
Warlocks feel neglected this tier, none of our hero talents have gotten touched neither has affliction and our anni patch consists of a bug fix for a pet not attacking its target, an icon update for soul rot and a aoe nerf for destro. Thats it!
Protip: add some jazzy lounge background music to the poddy c. Gives it the chill vibe it needs
Disagree.
bring plunderstorm back!
What is the avg pull for a guild first kill on H?
In regards to the complaining about class tuning, it genuinely seems like the numbers they put out are 1.) WAY Off 2.) They made errors in their calculations
Not sure how this even happens as they should have the tools to be able to accurately tune the output of specs... As an example, for BM Hunter, it was Blizzards intention to buff AoE damage while leaving single target "reletivley neutral". We weren't told that this change was supposed to be net natural for ST until Monday when they corrected their errors.
The initial post on Thurs/Fri was showing a 10% ST nerf when in the pure ST build due to an error on Blizzards part which is why it caused a massive outrage lol. They forgot that the majority of our damage in ST is coming from 'pet summons' (dire beast, dark hounds, etc) and not just 'pets'
There are specs in the game that after 3 consecutive buffs, they still rank at the bottom.
As someone that works in big spreadsheets and does a ton of connected calculations via looksups, index matches etc. I honestly can not understand why Blizzard is THIS BAD when it comes to buffing underperforming specs.
That’s what she said.
I hate how you need certain weak auras for broodtwister
Dorki is a funny dude. His takes are always biased because he has a static m+ team that abuses meta classes. People trying to play their classes normally get the short end of the stick because certain class kits are simply not tailored towards m+. More podcasts without Dorki in it, thanks.
I would love to hear the input by the group of the LiquidReminders addon being behind a paywall even tho that is against blizzards terms of service, but they dont enforce it. I think its worth the 10$ of course but just curious what these guys think of that. The community is going nuts over it
“Hmm the community doesn’t find x hero tree fun. Better buff it until it’s the go to tree instead of reworking it so it’s fun” -blizzard I guess
has max cleared the raid on his char too, or "just" as a raid leader?
Just DBM for the raid group. He has not cleared. He doesn't deserve to have the ridiculous and gate keepey opinions that he does seeing as he does actually nothing.
@@justin9744 L take
@@oOZephyxOono, it isn’t. Max acts like a twat but he does none of the work to earn the prestige liquid has. The PLAYERS do.
why isnt there a patreon link in the description?
it’s the first link in the description!
I'm gonna nitpick here. If they keep buffing San'layn untill it's the best tree, suddenly ALL of my upgraded gear and ALL my crafts suck, because it needs pretty much as much haste as possible while Deathbringer needs as close to 0 haste as possible. So that'd be rough. Not sure how to solve that though..
The silence between people talking is deafening, I have to watch these with lofi in the background
While the recent changes are good changes, blizzard really needs to start putting space between themselves and community and make the game they want to make and make changes they feel are necessary. We've hit a point where the devs have listened to the community too much, too long, and the end-game's an absolute trainwreck for the casual to the midcore playerbase and TWW season 1 is the culmination of too many bongrip cooks.
Poddy E E
Bliz created a schizo feeling this season and its softly bleeding into content creation, stay strong boys
someone link the fist fight wowhead post about the disbanded RWF guild
Whining to Blizzard to revert nerfs rarely works, just check out the warrior forums lol
+11 is easily puggable. What reality is he in? 😅 I want to join
I still haven’t timed 8s yet. Always someone ass pulling trash or something, crazy that one wipe basically kills the key timer anyways.
yikes. comments are so angsty. I wonder if this is a reflection of how the general wow player base is feeling.
Agree with the comments, episode definitely felt low energy with a lot of out of touch takes. Sucks to say, am I patron and these kinda episodes are having me consider continuing
Why is Luigi from super mario in the top left. Also where is his Luigi hat
1000 pulls...pug groups 2 wipes and they fall apart 😅
11 years ago Greg Street said "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We found the opposite. :(" Were already back to the classic blizzard "were not wrong, it's the players who are wrong" type shit
Souls games not popular because they are hard, but they are hard but there are so many ways to make them easier.
but normal raids and low m+ isnt hard, there is a difficulty for everyone, you arent entitled to clear mythic raids just because you exist
blizzard turned out to be correct when they said "u dont want classic classic"
@@RobotboyX2how?
@@xYiazmatx people didnt like full classic experience and wanted changes very quickly, they then got changes for burning crusade and wotlk.
but since blizzard commited to the zero changes vanilla experience, a lot of people were unhappy and wanted to see things change like world buff stacking etc
Tbh think ill quit playing alt's the warband system is better but gearing my alts in lower keys is an absolute hell
It feels like people are having the same issue they always had which is that pugging is ass. The advice has always been to find a guild to rock with and make some friends, but there are apparently a lot of wow players who play wow solo.
I’m having a blast doing keys with 2 friends and we have no issues clearing 9s and 10s so far.
Healing them has been miserable, I've only done a few because i've been actively avoiding them and just pugging heroic each week, tried siege of boralus 5 in a pug, wipe fest, everyone getting one tapped by nearly everything or you get overlapped abilities comboing people outright. Tried a mists 6, DK tank paper thin window wiper health bar. It's just not fun to heal. I don't want to try a higher key and just get complained at.
Personally haven't struggled that much even pugging but I'm playing the meta healer. I can see how dps not using personals and using cc/stuns make keys untimable. Wish dps were more self-aware for sure.
@@Heathy87 siege of boralus was the easier 11 out of all of them lol,stop judging things based on pugging experience
@@fp3977 I'm playing holy priest, we have decent sustain, I think I just found myself trying to heal impossible to heal damage, the first boss in siege several times he was pulling me into the bombardment, so he's standing on the bombardment and then pulls you in, and you get one shot for about 5m damage, most of them seem to be like that where you get these really horrible overlaps. I don't want to try a 9 assuming anyone would invite me to a 9 with a 450 score, and just end up ruining their key. I don't think I heal that badly, it's just that I can imagine you go past 7 and even the weak abilities in the lower keys that hit like a wet noodle will start basically killing people. Perhaps I've just been unlucky so far. I don't mind raiding as I feel like you can move if you have to and the healing doesn't stop but in M+ it's only you healing so when you move and need to stop to save someone, either you die or they die. I like a challenge, but I feel like the window of opportunity is tiny in m+. either it goes well and people kick what they should kick and avoid what they should avoid or you're breaking your fingers trying to keep people alive. I think the last time I did high M+ keys was in legion, even then it felt like most of the difficulty just rolls down hill to the healer, you have a bunch of affixes that essentially just make it harder to heal. we're at the point where for me, the fun of healing has been removed entirely from m+.
The guy that did plunderstorm/remix that left blizzard probably was being underpaid and got offered a better gig somewhere else.
This episode is pretty off some way. Had strong phoning it in feeling.
Yea esp in the first half everyone seemed to be kinda dismissive and weird, idk D:
Raid seems fun just haven’t really engaged with guilds pugging it felt weird last tier so I skipped this one .
Does Max just do the RWF and then doesn’t play much WoW after that?
Aldrachi reaver seems underplayed??? it must be a numbers thing, lets buff it!!! what? it wasnt numbers? it was already simming ahead? you mean our dogshit dev team made ANOTHER hero tree that feels like shit? Are we wrong? NO! its the players who are wrong!
chat. i played at release d4, came back and I suck. do i level at WL 1 or just start a new char? i hit like a wet sponge
Just roll Path of Exile EZ
Gear, gear, gear, gear. It's all about gear in d4
It's completely fine to do the entire campaign at normal. If you want to go to hard, wait until you do your class stuff at 15 (most classes) or 25 (necro). Here's the reason. So much XP is built into campaign quest completion that the XP gain from going to higher difficulties...doesn't matter as much as you might think once you factor in increased kill times. Sure if you're leveling through helltide blasting, it makes sense to up world tier for the xp gain. But you should probably just blast through the campaign at normal and then start messing around with difficulties afterwards.
@@manaofthe2 thanks. i did the complete campaign already from the main game
@@zirngibel3596 VoH has its own campaign that can be done from level 1 if you skip the base game's campaign.
Just how good is their pot to have decided to schedule mdi so close to the RWF?
Warriors cried a lot and it did not work for us. Cryuing only works for liked classes.
I love how they look down upon the fight design in ffxiv, then talk about how good Nexus Princess is...when that fight is as scripted as I've ever seen any fight in wow. It's literally more scripted than most savage fights in ffxiv.
Max stole that from Dorki cause he needed a win after Morgan Day destroyed him with theinterview about raid buffs at the start of xpac.
Just give Brew more armor/dodge/anything that reduces white swing damage. Not so difficult at all.
I'm cally from the vally we massively over geared it i mean we didn't even over gear it ! Are you 5 years old?