When Did Jacob Become Israel?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 เม.ย. 2024
- The patriarch Jacob is the father of Israel, but when did he become Israel? Did this happen when he wrestled with God or at a laster point? Do we have contradictory accounts in the Pentateuch?
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One of my gripes with the documentary hypothesis is that it assumes the authors of the Pentateuch were idiots who were unable to actually mix two narratives together into a single one and instead put two different versions of each story without noticing any apparent "contradiction"
I agree. I pointed that out in the first video of this series.
They’re sneaky enough to mush a bunch of stories together, but not sneaky enough to cover their tracks fully when they had control of the story 😂 Development hypothesis got me laughin fr
@@maxalaintwo3578excuse me?
I don’t agree with the documentary hypothesis myself (fully, at least) but the explanation I hear the most is that these were sacred traditions and they wanted to preserve these stories.
@@wannabe_scholar82 still doesn't actually make any sense
IP! Thank you, brother. Thank you.
I send many of my students your way because of your carefully researched scholarship and your even-tempered manner in presentation.
Keep on keepin' on!
Jacob: "LORD, please keep my family safe from my brother and the men he brought with him."
God: "Can you fight?"
Jacob: 😧
🤼♂️
God: " Look at me.... you're Israel now."
Israel: "okay." 🤷♂️
God bless you and your work sir I.P. respect from Croatia Europe 💙💙💙
Awesome, just finished a paper and checked my phone now to relax to the fruit of your labors
😄
How are these comments 5 days ago ? 🤔🤔
@@Michael-Anghmembers
Hey IP! I love the work you do to get us informed on theology!
I’m a Christian myself and recently I’ve been troubled in spirit because my friend who is also Christian thinks that the God of the Old Testament is mean and cruel while the God of the NT is friendlier so he started to throw around the theory that Gnosticism was what the early apostles believed in and that The Father isn’t the God of the OT.
I’ve been trying to conduct my own research and I genuinely wanted to know from your view point of what impact gnostics had, if any, toward early Christianity.
Thank you and Godbless🫡
Very informative, now that I know what the documentary hypothesis is! Thanks!
Glad to help
Ooooh baby!!! A video drop by IP!!
Thanks for the video IP! Great work as always.
Can I ask why sceptics always divide the Bible into multiple sources that we have literally 0 evidence of their existence? I'm honestly confused.
Misunderstanding chiastic structures. They can’t understand repetition
Funny thing is if they divide repetition into two sources . Then, we now have multiple sources telling the same to story
@@ramadadiver7810 but you can’t clearly do that. The repeated statements are make little sense on their own
Because they are SKEPTICS. They are seeking any way possible to discredit the Bible.
God bless Israel. God hasn't abandoned his people (Romans 11:28-32)
Right ..
@uwvadertje everything u know about israel is slanderous propaganda. Its not hard to dig below the surface and see that israel and jewels r innocent
By Israel you mean those in Christ... right?
Outstanding answer! Thanks, IP!
Thank you Michael Jones. From your videos I can create PPT and present it to others. Thank you sir👍
Please do
my first problem with the DOCUMENTARY Hypothesis is that it is about documents - physical documents - it cannot be refuted or proven because the originals are long gone. Secondly, it is all supposition and a series of multiple linked hypotheses. Hypothesis 1 may have an arguable probability of 0.9, and so might H2. But the MULTIPLE linked hypothesis is now of probability 0.81 (0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81). The whole thing turns to speculative dust in very short order.
It is not supposition. The DH is strong and widely accepted because it has multiple patterns of evidence that cross together nicely. Actually read about the DH or watch lectures on it instead of only getting all your information from apologists
@Christian_Maoist. why jump to conclusions that he didn't read or do any of his own research just because he doesn't have the same conclusion as you?
@@jebremocampo9194 "how do you know they didn't do any of the research?" because everything he said is already addressed and cliche statements made by people who don't understand the DH. Read Who wrote the bible by Friedman or his lectures on the OT and you'd know why everything he said is wrong and doesn't work
This is the problem of the disappearing reactor. The better we appreciate the literary sophistication of the work, the more it points to a single author.
Wow!!! This is really awesome. Thank you for your videos. In my own faith, the reliability of the Biblical texts has been majorly important to me. I suffered a crisis in faith last year regarding the Genesis and Exodus accounts, and your videos have helped me to get back to grips with the reliability of these early books of the Bible.
Thank you, my college taught the Pentateuch errors in theology classes.
Christ bless you, love these please keep them going
Thankyou sir❤God bless you
Lord Jesus hear my prayers. I trust in you and keep faith even as I struggle to take care of my children. Both of my sons are special needs and require so much from me. Lord Jesus I’m overwhelmed as a single mother. Please hear my prayers. I’m constantly struggling to buy groceries and constantly struggling to pay rent and now that I’m home schooling my sons I’m struggling even more. Lord give me strength I can’t do it without you. 😭😭
When I was studying the origins of the Bible, decades ago, the documentary hypothesis was presented to me as established fact. Only later did I discover the many flaws in this hypothesis. Thanks for dealing with some of these.
¡Gracias!
Thank you so much for the donation. You are such a great supporter.
Sir michael, i wish you publish some books about this to preserve this kind of topic and specially the answers.......i would really buy one in the future
Thanks for being smart
Read judges, then Samuel Kings I and almost finished Kings II. There are many repeats. This is done on purpose. I especially love the line "In those days Israel did not have a king, so everyone did as they pleased."
Beautiful video, as usual. Jacob’s (new, given) name being symbolic of Israel, of the land of Israel, of the people of Israel, and of the relationship of all these with G-d. Jacob wrestled with the Angel and still had the humility to ask for a blessing, since he knew that the Angel was more powerful than him. He was given the name Israel, meaning that he, as a person, was honored with this name, and, at once, it is given to the Land and the people of Israel, and the relationship of those with G-d. Thank you very much. Very clear and complex video, as usual.
- A Jewish person.
Thank you to whoever gifted me a membership.
Counting the blessings
Excellent work as usual, IP. The more I learn about the topic, the more I've come to realize that the JEDP hypothesis (and its even more exotic offshoots) is not merely unproven, but simply untenable. The tight chiasmic patterns in each Genesis cycle, combined with the strong parallels between cycles that you point out there, the archaic language, the 2nd millennium Egyptian loanwords and symbology, the near identical text between the Samaritan and Judean Pentateuchs and lack of Zion theology, and much more - you simply cannot realistically get these things from different traditions haphazardly stitched together by people with widely different agendas centuries after the events described, and it's simply not rational to hold that that's what happened once you've got enough information.
And the continued prominence of that view in spite of it all is a testament to just how profound an effect political, philosophical, and religious (or anti-religious) prejudices have within the sciences (even the relatively "hard" sciences), and the intense groupthink and gatekeeping it results in against what is dismissed as not "respectable" enough to even be considered regardless of evidence and reason.
I was already aware of this dynamic from my own observation, and from guys like Kuhn and Feyerabend, but it has really hit home in recent years just how strong and systemic the effect is.
Glory to God
Myths and legends that arose during the reign of Ptolemy and were eliminated by archaeology. You must know that Judea, Samaria, and Jerusalem are pagan Canaanite cities and have nothing to do with the Israelis. At the time when the Torah claimed the existence of the Kingdom of Israel, Canaan was an Egyptian province. Therefore, Israel did not exist until after that, that is, it existed at a late time and was merely a tribal leadership over a small area, and there is no mention of these biblical exaggerations in the Assyrian, Egyptian, Palestinian and other inscriptions.
@@yonj3269 Judea are pagan canaanite cities ?
Hahaha are you serious ? Do you even know the etymology of that place name ?
Don't embarrass yourself here by parotting stuffs u saw from random website
@@yonj3269 Again you are deliberately being ignorant here , most of works/antiquities/records in egyptian were lost , so how come u could use that to disprove Israel ? Get your history right sir 😭😭😭
Man. I'm struggling my way through Christianity. And I am trying so hard to find someone who can listen to me. Everyone I try to talk to who are christians, don't understand the fact that I'm in my early 40s, and don't understand Christianity.
They have trouble understanding and navigating how little I know, and it's frustrating. Thank you for your videos, they help me a lot.
A good source is Hebrew Mythology or Science of the Bible, by Milton Woolley.
I heard that Thomas Romer does not deny the historicity of Moses
Dude, idk if I was completely clueless of this "problem" when I read Genesis, but I've *never* heard of it until now 😂
Does IP have any videos refuting Kersey Graves' work _The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors_ ? I'd like to see that DEBUNKED.
Could you address the notion of Subordinationism within the Early Church? Essentially, you could concoct a video refuting common claims of a questionable Subordinationist quotations of early Church Fathers. Then again, thanks for your service within this platform.
4:20 I’ve heard scholars say JE was in front of P when he was writing, so P filled in the gaps around JE and added his own material.
This was proposed by FM Cross that P was a supplementary source. But Richard Elliot Friedman points out some issues with this claim and why he doesn't agree in his lectures on the old testament
Hey Inspiring Philosophy, love your work and your videos. I’d really appreciate if you could respond to a video, it’s called Quiz Show, Bible Contradictions. If at the very least you could add it to your supposed Bible contradictions playlist. Thank you!
Wonderful as always, it always strikes me how they think that after 5,000+ years, nobody notices the patterns and must be that the authors were dumb
I love
Hey Ip have you loked into OT textual criticism and making videos on it ? Some poeole try to argue torah preservation csnt be knwin due to moses and deas sea scrolls have a gap
14 : 22 And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allāh had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allāh] before.1 Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment."
GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT, ONE GOD, AMEN. HALLELUJAH.
Hey IP, I want to know more about the book of wars of the Lord mentioned in Numbers. Can you suggest anything ?
Hi Michael, sorry for this off-topic request, but if you don't mind, would you care to make a response to gnostic informant videos about Christmas and Easter having pagan origins? He brings up some topics that aren't really discussed in most apologetic circles, so I thought maybe you could help.
Please debate Rabbi Tovia singer, about the crucifixion
Tovia the serpentine rabbi? He gives me a visual representation of the pharisees and sadducees whom Jesus had to deal with. 😂😂😂
Amen❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉😊😊😊
hello michael, paulogia made a reply to J. Warner Wallace related to the scribes based on the accounts of the church fathers, however paulogia says that we have no way of knowing the tradition of the scribes based on the scribes, what is your opinion about that? how do we know that history has remained the same since the death of christ to this day?
Hello IP…when will you post a video regarding the use of first person pronouns in the book of Acts….from my perspective…its really clear from those that Luke did directly met Paul and got his sources from him(Paul met the apostels John,Peter,etc) so Luke has good sources for me…i don t even need to know his name(others say its anonymous) to see he s someone who met Paul and did traveled with Paul…
I wonder who I would say Inspiring Philosophys greatest adversary is I would say it's either Prophet of Zod or Brandon from Mindshift but I wanna hear your guys thoughts
giphy.com/gifs/onechicago-nbc-chicago-fire-one-KGSxFwJJHQPsKzzFba
@@InspiringPhilosophy nah for real dude who would you say is your greatest opponent
@@InspiringPhilosophy I mean it's something I've been wondering for awhile since Holy Koolaid said in a video that you're atheisms most formidable opponent and I can see why
Maybe a little unrelated, but I noticed that ever since Jacob was renamed to Israel, he is referred to his old and new name interchangeably afterward. Is there any reason for this?
Please debate or refute @morgue
I really like the EDP source, EDP445.
Michael Jones I want you to do a video on to TH-camrs. This is a Jewish TH-cam channel called the exodus Project that does videos against Christianity and the central belief systems in it and tries to use scripture to support their claims like on Isaiah 53 claiming that this is not a prophecy, but rather talking about something else, and the second channel is an atheist channel, it’s called life without religion. I would like you to do some response on it.
I think you should read more about these topics rather than ask IP to debunk every anti Christian that exists. There always will be people to attack us and our faith can’t simply be grounded in our ability to always defeat their arguments (because we simply are too ignorant and do not have time). Also apologetics on yt tend to target their in-group (in this case jews) rather than Christians themselves and use stupid arguments that can only be accepted by non-christians who aren’t well read into these topics.
Hi hallo howdy hello greeting's bless
Aren't there contradictory creation accounts and contradictory accounts of Noah's flood? Doesn't that require multiple sources? What is the scholarly consensus on this?
th-cam.com/video/C8Z0vrs1ZIs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=0WE2PgffKrNISqOC
@@InspiringPhilosophy Interesting. What's the scholarly consensus?
This is quite obviously narrative repetition… I am so confused as to why this is even debated 😭 Great vid I.P
So they can manufacture evidence for the JEDP.
Yeah the Torah isn't in chronological order. This is something Rabbis all know, but we don't flaunt it around for obvious reasons.
Cant believe a person became a country!
Makes sense in a clan based society
Im not educated on geography much but arent many nations named after a family or person like France (the Frank family)?
The name Israel is also used collectively in the Bible to denote God’s chosen people, the descendants of Jacob, as well as the geographical region God grants to his chosen people.
@@HerveyShmervyfranks is from a tribe
israel is a tribe named after its ancestor
Why not? A person became two CONTINENTS - the Americas.
Do I hear Minecraft music?
1. Complicated hypothesis: Genesis looks weird to us because it's a bunch of earlier sources stitched together.
2. Simple hypothesis: Genesis looks weird to us because it was written over 3000 years ago in the Middle East, and literary forms change.
It's impossible for Genesis to be written that way because like you admitted literacy changes and Genesis has linguistic features like loan words that didn't exist until the 7th century BC
@@Christian_Maoist. 1. I said there have been literary changes *since it was written*, not whatever you are referring to.
2. Which loan words are you talking about and, pray tell, how would you *know* they didn't exist until the 7th century BC?
Just wondering but will you ever do stuff on the "Israelites were Canaanites" thing?
The whole discussion is silly. Genesis MUST have been sourced from several other documents, even if it was finally compiled at one time, due to the time periods it covers. The arguments are ridiculous.
The redactor seems to be as talented or idiot as the theory needs him making it very adhock. I believe there are sources beneath the Pentateuch but they are numerous and impossible to be reconstructed. The narration however is unified.
I'm an atheist but still love the textual analysis you do. It's always well researched and well presented.
I would say Jacob became Israel when the angel of the Lord grabbed him by his balls. Where his seed was. That seed who became the germanic, Scandinavian, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon related peoples.
Hey IP, have you seen the recent stuff being put out by athiest TH-camrs about how Yahweh was a storm god adapted from the Caananites? I was wondering what your opinions on this claim are.
First usage of Israel is
"ISHTRAEL"
Also, dont eat from the tree of Duality.
Israel is two words of Isra (phallus) and El (god).
BS!!! Your "evidence" for this is WHAT, exactly???
@@harveywabbit9541 we're given the origin of the name in the text. We are told that it means struggle/wrestle with God.
@@justusmorton6555
Jacob wrestled with the heel (phallus) of Esau, while they were in the womb.
El, in the bible, is actually Jupiter/IU Piter.
The tale of Jacob pouring oil (semen) and wine (passion) on the upright stone (phallus) would have been performed by a female desiring to become impregnated.
Hermes stones were found throughout the ancient world
Can anyone point me to anything in the scriptures that prove Yaqob aka Yisrael(Yashar'al) settled in what is today referred to as Israel(in north east Africa)?
Yaqob was a shemite and the land allotment of these people wasn't in Africa(kham's land allotment),so how is true Israel where we've been told it is?
You could have just said Jacob and Israel.
@@seanmurphy5854
He could just read the Bible in the first place.
Israel, in the bible, has no relation to a historical nation or country. Israel is two words of Isra/Ysra (phallus) + El (god). It is nothing more than god is the phallus.
The rock that Jacob slept on is the phallus (Hermes stone). He stood it upright and poured oil (semen) and wine (passion) on it.
The wrestling with god is simply the "wrestling with the phallus." The El in this myth is also the Latin Jupiter (IU Piter).
The Hermes stone (phallus) is also found in Deuteronomy 32.18 and is called "the rock that begat thee."
Also see Isaiah 9.14-15, where Israel (as summer) is described as having the head of the noble/royal lion (Leo) and lying tail (Scorpio). The palm branch/frond is the sign Virgo. See Virgo depicted holding the palm frond in her right hand (summer) and bundle of barely in her left hand (winter). The bundle represents the harvested crops which are to be shared (hospitality) during the winter season. The reed, a water plant, symbols the sign Libra which is the first of winter months (called bitter sea). This is an example of th year divided into the three seasons of winter, spring, and summer. Israel, in this case, equates to July thru October. The 12 tribes are the twelve solar months in one year. Reuben, the firstborn, is Aquarius (January).
The writers often blended their astronomical charts.
@@harveywabbit9541 , BS!!! You have NO evidence for this!!! "Israel" means "struggled with God". Reporting your comment as hate speech.
@@harveywabbit9541 it's actually YSRA+Al=YSRA'AL(Yashar'al).I don't know where you got that phallus bs from,but Its not surprising as you're more likely an individual from another nation/people and not surprisingly the other nationd over the years have dedicated uncountable resources,time and energy into making up absolute bullshit**t about s book that has absolutely nothing to do with them.What's written in yhid book(in yhe oriignal language of course isn't meant to be completely revealed or understood by the nations outside of ancient YSRA'AL.Anyway,anyway,Aluha or AlAH(singluar form) is the supreme deity who the ancient shemites(native americas-not the Mongolian flock)referred to as the great spirit.The people's and their language predate Latin,so why are you reaching with all that other stuff?
Myths and legends that arose during the reign of Ptolemy and were eliminated by archaeology. You must know that Judea, Samaria, and Jerusalem are pagan Canaanite cities have nothing to do with the Israelis. At the time when the Torah claimed the existence of the Kingdom of Israel, Canaan was an Egyptian province. Therefore, Israel did not exist until after that, that is, it existed at a late time and was merely a tribal leadership over a small area, and there is no mention of these biblical exaggerations in the Assyrian, Egyptian, Palestinian and other inscriptions.
BS!!! Your "evidence" for these extravagant claims is WHAT, exactly?
@@mysotiras21
What evidence would you like to be included in a comment?! You can view the research of scholars in this field, including Israel Flenkstein, an Israeli archaeologist.
@@yonj3269 , tsk tsk. Don't sidestep, peanut. YOU made the assertions, so YOU must give the SCHOLARLY references to back them up. BTW, I MET Dr. Finkelstein years ago, and you have MISREPRESENTED his views. He says that the Israelites came into existence between 1250-1100 BC, when they settled in the region that eventually became the Northern Kingdom.
But my grandma is older than israel!!!1!!
Older that modern Israel, which is a completely DIFFERENT entity from ancient Israel.
When did Jacob become Israel?
Certainly not in Genesis 10, 11 or 12.
That means Deuteronomy 32:8 can’t possibly mean sons of Israel. Israel is not in the table of nations. Abraham did not have a son yet.
EVIDENCE, please.
@@mysotiras21
Job 38 where Yahweh says the sons of God existed at the creation of the earth.
Can’t be human and witness that, that would contradict the creation narrative of Genesis.
@@christopherepperson3328 , look at the standard exegetical commentaries. "The 'sons of God" in 38:7 are simply the Heavenly Host (aka angels).
@@mysotiras21 I know, same applies to Genesis 6.
@@christopherepperson3328 , hmm. That chapter can be interpreted in a number of ways. Some scholars suggest that the "sons of God" were the descendants of Seth, while the 'daughters of men" were the descendants of Cain. I haven't studied the matter myself.
Jacob became Israel after he stole Esau's blessing by fraud and deceit.
Not exactly like you try to make it sound here.
Only after wrestling with God did he receive his new name.
There's a whole lot of time between him stealing Esau's blessing and the wrestling at Peniel.
Genesis 32 verse 24-28
@FlipACoin04 nice try but that's exactly how the story goes Jacob stole Esau's blessing by fraud and deceit. Not much has changed today as Israel is passed off as a political entity and gullible people swallow it hook, line and sinker.
NOPE. He was STILL Jacob at that time. Try READING the Bible.
@mysotiras21 you have no clue just beliefs and opinions based on what students taught you. You probably believe Moses was a jew and led the Jews out of Egypt too. Moses wasn't a Jew that would contradict how the Story is told and he led the Hebrews out of Egypt. Pharaoh wasn't a man Pharoah is a title. Adam wasn't a man Adam is the represented figure of Mankind. The Garden represents the Natural Nature. Moses led the people out of Egypt, the CITY into the desert which is Nature. If you knew your Creator you'd forget all about Religion which is the worship of the unknown GOD the one men created in their own image.
@@jaspernewcomb5656 , blah blah blah blah blah blah. You live in a fantasy world. What a load of unsubstantiated GIBBERISH you just posted! New Age psychobabble. Go back to school to learn logical, critical thinking.
Israel, in the bible, has no relation to a historical nation or country. Israel is two words of Isra/Ysra (phallus) + El (god). It is nothing more than god is the phallus.
The rock that Jacob slept on is the phallus (Hermes stone). He stood it upright and poured oil (semen) and wine (passion) on it.
The wrestling with god is simply the "wrestling with the phallus." The El in this myth is also the Latin Jupiter (IU Piter).
The Hermes stone (phallus) is also found in Deuteronomy 32.18 and is called "the rock that begat thee."
Also see Isaiah 9.14-15, where Israel (as summer) is described as having the head of the noble/royal lion (Leo) and lying tail (Scorpio). The palm branch/frond is the sign Virgo. See Virgo depicted holding the palm frond in her right hand (summer) and bundle of barely in her left hand (winter). The bundle represents the harvested crops which are to be shared (hospitality) during the winter season. The reed, a water plant, symbols the sign Libra which is the first of winter months (called bitter sea). This is an example of th year divided into the three seasons of winter, spring, and summer. Israel, in this case, equates to July thru October. The 12 tribes are the twelve solar months in one year. Reuben, the firstborn, is Aquarius (January). The writers often blended their astronomical charts.
Duh fuq is dis?!
LIAR!!! "Israel" means "struggled with God". Reporting you for hate speech.
@@HangrySaturnjust some weirdo coming up with his own theories.
Hey IP what are your thoughts on the residential-schools-controversy in Canada?