Great video, David. Shooting under LED stage lighting is exactly like trying to shoot pictures from a TV screen. Slowing your shutter speed is key but, obviously, not always doable. Have a great season on the road.
For those asking about anti flicker modes in cameras, the answer is “it depends”. Some newer cameras can detect the pulsing frequency and make minor adjustments to your shutter speed to shoot in between the pulses. This means in practice that while you might be nominally at 1/500s, your camera is actually adjusting to say 1/513, or 1/478s to reduce the banding. The Sony A1 gives you the option to fine tune this, while lower end cameras do this automatically, but not necessarily well (depends on the sensor readout speeds and processor capabilities). Not all anti-flicker settings are made equal, and you have to experiment on the fly with your own to figure out whether it will work in a given situation. Generally stacked sensors with fast readouts will be far far better, while slower high megapixel sensors will be worse, but this is not a hard and fast rule.
The banding problem is not that different to shooting a strobe at too high a shutter speed with a focal plane shutter, except part of the image is not exposed at all rather than just bands under/over exposed. Another problem with LEDs is if they are used in one of the RGB primaries, especially red. The sensors tend to struggle rendering those as they are just getting one colour channel blasted. It's things like this that make shooting concerts and gigs so challenging and exciting.
That Makes sense, but I don’t get why he would need to use such high shutter speed of 1/2500? Unless the singer was jumping around on stage but didn’t look like it waa that type of gig,
This is the only problem I have found with my Z9. It excels in every area of photography but is absolutely terrible with concert photography. Even the variable shutter speeds don't seem to have much affect. And when you're mainly shooting rock/metal musicians, 1/125" is simply too slow. I often need to be at 1/250" or better to minimize motion blur.
J.W. Just read your comment, I too own a Nikon Z9, I don’t do a lot of concert photography but will here shortly. So the variable shutter speeds don’t do anything to combat the LED banding effect? I agree with you, 1/125 is too slow shutter speeds a lot of times. I used to use 1/250 at minimum in the past. Any advice is appreciated….Thanks for your time.
Actually, fixing in post process isn't THAT hard, but you have to understand what it is you actually are seeing. The banding is a result in luminance difference, so you need to create a mask full of gradients that align with the bands, then apply luminance changes with that mask. However, it's even easier to avoid the banding by working inside the shutter sync speed. For most of us, that means 1/200-1/250. Which limits what movement you can freeze a lot. Or you can ask the light people ahead of the event what frequency their lights work at (all of these lights have a fixed pulse rate, and vary their brightness by how long after pulse start the LED remains lit), and use a shutter that is a common denominator of that frequency. Takes a bit of maths, but is doable.
A related issue is rolling shutter using electronic shutter when trying to capture a drummer, the drum sticks warp depending on the write speed. Best solution would be a global shutter, or faster write speeds. Faster shutter speeds risk banding from the LEDs as mentioned in the video. The Sony alpha one has a very quiet mechanical shutter. Shooting in silent mode on most mirrorless cameras is currently an issue, especially higher megapixels with longer write speeds. Great video, very helpful.
Excellent explation of a common problem. I seem to notice it most with shots taken during changing brightness levels . . . less so when the light level is steady. We'll see how I can problem solve it 19 days from now when I get to "Shoot from the pit" in Indianapolis . . . not that I'm counting. 👍
I thought I read somewhere that certain cameras, (Nikon Z9?) has a menu function wherein you can "dial in" a frequency to mitigate the banding in LED lights. Though not all lights pulse at the same frequency. Comments?
What I get on my Sony A7S III is a fine mesh pattern at 1/250. But only appears when I am in one place. The bar has 4 large LED lights pointing towards the camera, and often in Red.
Thank you David for this lucid account of banding, concerts and silent shutter. I recently shot a dance event at 640/500 of a second during a live performance and had to use electronic shutter. The results with teh Canon r6 were unusable....I've read the posts about reducing shutter speeds as the only way out. There are only hard choices! Interestingly no-one has talked about trying to photograph ballet or dance under LEDs where fast shutter speeds and silence go hand in hand. Thanks again.
I've shot dance with an R6 and mechanical shutter. They still play music, even with ballet in most cases, my shutter noise was totally inaudible. There might have been a few moments of silence here and there, but it's no like golf :D
I shoot a lot of Theatre and weddings (and wedding receptions where this is also becomming a problem). The anti-flicker and variable shutter on the Sony A7IV are amazing but you still need slow(er) shutter speeds to avoid the banding. My main issue is in the UK I often find the SS needed to eliminate banding is around 1/60 to 1/80. On a 70-200mm that's very risky so I duel camera and have a wider lens if I'm sturggling with the telephoto. If you can use strobes and speedlights then life is much, much easier.
I’ve had issues in these venues to. Mechanical shutter and ant flicker help. The one thing I can’t eliminate is where on stage they use a light projector to give an effect on a rear screen, let’s say a tea pot and cups for an Alice in wonderland dance. I don’t get white but huge blocks of colour, greens, pinks… None of these techniques have any effect. It’s the same on Sony A1, A9, A7IV, A7RIV & V. Tried my old Nikon DSLRS D500, 850 still the same problem. Got around it in some cases in post my selecting the background and desaturating, ok when background is B&W, but not feasible to do when there is thousands of shots to edit from a 2 hour performance…
The anti-flicker feature of my r6 and r6mk ii work wonders to avoid the banding issue. I shoot in a space with old Flourescents and the banding is horrible. Mechanic + anti-flicker solves it. It usually flickers based on the frequency of the electric ac current...
Hello Michael, can you show any results of shooting fast moving figures with the anti flicker feature enabled? Were you also using silent shutter? R6 mark ii allows you to tune the shutter I think, but can you tune it to something like 423rd of a second, say, to free fast action?
I had banding in an indoor soccer event at a new complex. Turned on Anti flicker on my R5...problem solved. I've also noticed new car headlights bink while recording video with the R5.
Shoot with mechanical shutter, not electronic shutter. Ditch your Sigma fp. ;) Shoot with a camera with fast sensor readout. Shoot film!! :) Shoot with a CCD sensor camera. ;)
You will only see LED banding when using the mechanical shutter if shooting at shutter speeds above the camera's X-Sync speed. Above your X-Sync speed a focal plane shutter acts just like a scanning sensor where only parts of your image are exposed at a time. You will not have this problem with cameras that utilize a leaf shutter, even max shutter speed with a leaf shutter is exposing the whole image at once, no scanning effect. These venues are cheaping out with the LEDs they purchase, they are not buying the more expensive Movie and Stills rated lighting to eliminate the LED banding issue for photographers and videographers.
Yes, banding drives me crazy sometimes. Mainly banding depends on power cycle. In the US it's 60Hz. So either 1/60 or double 1/120 will eliminate it. In the EU power cycle is 50Hz, so you'll need to go to 1/100 or 1/50 to eliminate it. The shorter your shutter speed the more bands you'll see. Furthermore it depends on the angle of the light to the sensor. Some cameras can adjust for high frequency flicker adjustment (Z9, R3). @David: Why don't you use the automatic high frequency flicker adjustment of the R3? The R3 can adjust the shutter speed according to high frequency flicker. Or, why don't you use the mechanical shutter as the R3 still has it. My Z9s only can fine adjust shutter speed according to the hff. But then you don't have the time in a concert to deal with hff all the time.
I'v had this problem a lot filming concerts just as you describe it: when there are lights shining through fog. I tested out various shutter speeds trying to find one that works, but unfortunately the only way to get rid of those lines was to lower the shutter speed from 1/50 to 1/40. But then it was perfectly gone.
I shoot 100's of shows a year and sometimes using a mechanical shutter (even a quiet one) isn't an option for quieter performances. I also like to shoot bursts to get just the right moment and that'd be even noisier. On my A7R3 banding was a huge issue with my newer A1 it's GREATLY minimized. 1/120 is even too slow for jazz musicians that are relatively still, usually 1/200 is the absolute lowest I can get away with and generally shoot 1/250 to 1/320 for most shows. Crazy rock musicians you need close to 1/1000 to stop the motion blur. A friend of mine shot some photos at a show of the drummer at a very slow shutter speed, maybe 1/15 and she got a fantastic effect with the LED's making the sticks look like multiples. For some reason that same tech didn't work at all with my A1.
Hi David! I know this is not the topic, but I would like to know how to configure the WB on the camera in a show lit with multicolored led lights? Brazil
I shoot RAW in auto WB and then decide in post. Unless you do photojournalism where color accuracy is super important... in that case I'd try daylight or tungsten depending on the lights they're using.
that banding effect ruined so many shots at concerts when I switched to the mirrorless camera R5 8-/ fortunately we have the mechanical shutter (unlike the newer Nikons). And no, lowering the shutter speed at a concert is definitely no solution, I want sharp photos, not blurry ones with motion. this really, really sucks. I wish I could adjust the frequenzy on my canon like Nikon allows. But yeah... maybe the next generation of cameras can deal with this problem 😀
Thanks for the quick info! Would you say that Electronic First Curtain is the best of both worlds when you can't shoot mechanical? Also, for concerts where you need to shoot quietly I'm guessing electronic is the only way to go, right?
Just curious if you have any insight into cameras that only have first curtain electronic shutter, not full mechanical shutter. And I think I have heard of some camera with electronic shutter allowing for custom shutter speeds. I think this can help the photographer find the sweet spot for their electronic shutter to mitigate or eliminate banding.
How much does the anit-flicker feature help? For instance, if banding is shown at 1/250 and only once gone down to 1/125 does it get better with the feature turned off, will the feature get rid of it at 1/250 or only up to about 1/160th? And would a camera with a faster reading sensor allow one to use a faster shutter speed? If so, any examples to give an idea on max SS? An example type I am looking for is, and these are made up numbers, a Canon R6i can go to 1/200th and a R6ii can go to 1/1000.
Although I have not had a chance to put it to the test, the Sony a7IV has an anti-flicker setting for shooting under fluorescent/LED lighting. I’m curious if anyone has had a chance to try it. (Page 262 in the downloadable manual).
I shoot sports and a lot of the high schools are moving to LEDs on their fields. Shooting at 1/200 or 1/250 isn't really an option for getting crisp clean action shots at a night game.
is there any other way to avoid banding? i'm shooting sports cant use that slow shutter technique.. it's not a real problem solver advice it's more on going around with the problem!
If I remember right, the Sony Alpha A1 has an "Anti Flicker Option" which should handle this banding issue by detecting the LED flickering automatically. But never had the occasion to try if this really works, though...
Hello, to make the same topic, they hired me in a ballet and the same thing happened to me, the problem is that I can't use it in mechanics because it can't make noise, so I have to use it in silent mode, what can I do?
I shoot music and don't run into much banding, but the background LED screens drive me crazy! They always tear up when I don't shoot at their refresh rates, but sometimes that means dropping to 1/100s or 1/160s, which is definitely NOT good for music.
Great video, David. Shooting under LED stage lighting is exactly like trying to shoot pictures from a TV screen. Slowing your shutter speed is key but, obviously, not always doable. Have a great season on the road.
Thanks!
Thanks, David for answering my question!
For those asking about anti flicker modes in cameras, the answer is “it depends”. Some newer cameras can detect the pulsing frequency and make minor adjustments to your shutter speed to shoot
in between the pulses. This means in practice that while you might be nominally at 1/500s, your camera is actually adjusting to say 1/513, or 1/478s to reduce the banding. The Sony A1 gives you the option to fine tune this, while lower end cameras do this automatically, but not necessarily well (depends on the sensor readout speeds and processor capabilities). Not all anti-flicker settings are made equal, and you have to experiment on the fly with your own to figure out whether it will work in a given situation. Generally stacked sensors with fast readouts will be far far better, while slower high megapixel sensors will be worse, but this is not a hard and fast rule.
This...
thanks i always use it on my R1 and never have seen it.
R3
Thanks James.
Another great full of information clip, excellent job David👍
The banding problem is not that different to shooting a strobe at too high a shutter speed with a focal plane shutter, except part of the image is not exposed at all rather than just bands under/over exposed. Another problem with LEDs is if they are used in one of the RGB primaries, especially red. The sensors tend to struggle rendering those as they are just getting one colour channel blasted. It's things like this that make shooting concerts and gigs so challenging and exciting.
That Makes sense, but I don’t get why he would need to use such high shutter speed of 1/2500? Unless the singer was jumping around on stage but didn’t look like it waa that type of gig,
This is the only problem I have found with my Z9. It excels in every area of photography but is absolutely terrible with concert photography. Even the variable shutter speeds don't seem to have much affect. And when you're mainly shooting rock/metal musicians, 1/125" is simply too slow. I often need to be at 1/250" or better to minimize motion blur.
J.W. Just read your comment, I too own a Nikon Z9, I don’t do a lot of concert photography but will here shortly. So the variable shutter speeds don’t do anything to combat the LED banding effect? I agree with you, 1/125 is too slow shutter speeds a lot of times. I used to use 1/250 at minimum in the past. Any advice is appreciated….Thanks for your time.
Same boat. I find the slower shutter higher fps helps
Actually, fixing in post process isn't THAT hard, but you have to understand what it is you actually are seeing. The banding is a result in luminance difference, so you need to create a mask full of gradients that align with the bands, then apply luminance changes with that mask.
However, it's even easier to avoid the banding by working inside the shutter sync speed. For most of us, that means 1/200-1/250. Which limits what movement you can freeze a lot.
Or you can ask the light people ahead of the event what frequency their lights work at (all of these lights have a fixed pulse rate, and vary their brightness by how long after pulse start the LED remains lit), and use a shutter that is a common denominator of that frequency. Takes a bit of maths, but is doable.
Man, I'm really curious how you do it. Would you give me a little info on that, please?
Use high frequency anti-flicker. It mostly fixes the issue.
Thanks, I've been get banding at our new venue with 99% LED lighting now... I'll switch back to mechanical shutter and see how low I can go with s/s.
A related issue is rolling shutter using electronic shutter when trying to capture a drummer, the drum sticks warp depending on the write speed. Best solution would be a global shutter, or faster write speeds. Faster shutter speeds risk banding from the LEDs as mentioned in the video. The Sony alpha one has a very quiet mechanical shutter. Shooting in silent mode on most mirrorless cameras is currently an issue, especially higher megapixels with longer write speeds. Great video, very helpful.
No rolling shutter with mechanical or electronic first curtain shutter.
Excellent explation of a common problem. I seem to notice it most with shots taken during changing brightness levels . . . less so when the light level is steady. We'll see how I can problem solve it 19 days from now when I get to "Shoot from the pit" in Indianapolis . . . not that I'm counting. 👍
Get ready!
Thank you David! I have experienced this also and didn't know how to resolve it. Now I do!
I’m not a concert shooter so I haven’t seen this issue before but, damn that was interesting to watch.
Fantastic explanation as always David 👌
Thanks!
I thought I read somewhere that certain cameras, (Nikon Z9?) has a menu function wherein you can "dial in" a frequency to mitigate the banding in LED lights. Though not all lights pulse at the same frequency. Comments?
Yea the Canon R3 has the same thing. My experience has been hit-and-miss. The only surefire way is to slow down your shutter speed.
What I get on my Sony A7S III is a fine mesh pattern at 1/250. But only appears when I am in one place. The bar has 4 large LED lights pointing towards the camera, and often in Red.
Thank you David for this lucid account of banding, concerts and silent shutter. I recently shot a dance event at 640/500 of a second during a live performance and had to use electronic shutter. The results with teh Canon r6 were unusable....I've read the posts about reducing shutter speeds as the only way out. There are only hard choices! Interestingly no-one has talked about trying to photograph ballet or dance under LEDs where fast shutter speeds and silence go hand in hand. Thanks again.
I've shot dance with an R6 and mechanical shutter. They still play music, even with ballet in most cases, my shutter noise was totally inaudible. There might have been a few moments of silence here and there, but it's no like golf :D
I shoot a lot of Theatre and weddings (and wedding receptions where this is also becomming a problem). The anti-flicker and variable shutter on the Sony A7IV are amazing but you still need slow(er) shutter speeds to avoid the banding. My main issue is in the UK I often find the SS needed to eliminate banding is around 1/60 to 1/80. On a 70-200mm that's very risky so I duel camera and have a wider lens if I'm sturggling with the telephoto.
If you can use strobes and speedlights then life is much, much easier.
I use Antiflicker on my Canon it does the trick.
I’ve had issues in these venues to. Mechanical shutter and ant flicker help. The one thing I can’t eliminate is where on stage they use a light projector to give an effect on a rear screen, let’s say a tea pot and cups for an Alice in wonderland dance. I don’t get white but huge blocks of colour, greens, pinks… None of these techniques have any effect. It’s the same on Sony A1, A9, A7IV, A7RIV & V. Tried my old Nikon DSLRS D500, 850 still the same problem. Got around it in some cases in post my selecting the background and desaturating, ok when background is B&W, but not feasible to do when there is thousands of shots to edit from a 2 hour performance…
Interesting, thx David, Now we have the A9 III Global Shutter and expect other manufacturers to follow suit.
The anti-flicker feature of my r6 and r6mk ii work wonders to avoid the banding issue. I shoot in a space with old Flourescents and the banding is horrible. Mechanic + anti-flicker solves it. It usually flickers based on the frequency of the electric ac current...
Hello Michael, can you show any results of shooting fast moving figures with the anti flicker feature enabled? Were you also using silent shutter? R6 mark ii allows you to tune the shutter I think, but can you tune it to something like 423rd of a second, say, to free fast action?
Love to the Sony A93
I've been voting 50 votes every day, I hope you'll be the winner.
Thanks!
I had banding in an indoor soccer event at a new complex. Turned on Anti flicker on my R5...problem solved. I've also noticed new car headlights bink while recording video with the R5.
Shoot with mechanical shutter, not electronic shutter. Ditch your Sigma fp. ;)
Shoot with a camera with fast sensor readout.
Shoot film!! :)
Shoot with a CCD sensor camera. ;)
You will only see LED banding when using the mechanical shutter if shooting at shutter speeds above the camera's X-Sync speed. Above your X-Sync speed a focal plane shutter acts just like a scanning sensor where only parts of your image are exposed at a time. You will not have this problem with cameras that utilize a leaf shutter, even max shutter speed with a leaf shutter is exposing the whole image at once, no scanning effect. These venues are cheaping out with the LEDs they purchase, they are not buying the more expensive Movie and Stills rated lighting to eliminate the LED banding issue for photographers and videographers.
Cheaper LED units use PWM dimming to save $.01 per unit. 😞
Yes, banding drives me crazy sometimes. Mainly banding depends on power cycle. In the US it's 60Hz. So either 1/60 or double 1/120 will eliminate it. In the EU power cycle is 50Hz, so you'll need to go to 1/100 or 1/50 to eliminate it. The shorter your shutter speed the more bands you'll see. Furthermore it depends on the angle of the light to the sensor. Some cameras can adjust for high frequency flicker adjustment (Z9, R3). @David: Why don't you use the automatic high frequency flicker adjustment of the R3? The R3 can adjust the shutter speed according to high frequency flicker. Or, why don't you use the mechanical shutter as the R3 still has it. My Z9s only can fine adjust shutter speed according to the hff. But then you don't have the time in a concert to deal with hff all the time.
I shoot all mechanical shutter. It's still an issue, but much less often. I've tried the flicker adjustment and it's hit and miss.
I was going to comment about the 60hz thing it makes a difference
I'v had this problem a lot filming concerts just as you describe it: when there are lights shining through fog. I tested out various shutter speeds trying to find one that works, but unfortunately the only way to get rid of those lines was to lower the shutter speed from 1/50 to 1/40. But then it was perfectly gone.
I shoot 100's of shows a year and sometimes using a mechanical shutter (even a quiet one) isn't an option for quieter performances. I also like to shoot bursts to get just the right moment and that'd be even noisier. On my A7R3 banding was a huge issue with my newer A1 it's GREATLY minimized. 1/120 is even too slow for jazz musicians that are relatively still, usually 1/200 is the absolute lowest I can get away with and generally shoot 1/250 to 1/320 for most shows. Crazy rock musicians you need close to 1/1000 to stop the motion blur. A friend of mine shot some photos at a show of the drummer at a very slow shutter speed, maybe 1/15 and she got a fantastic effect with the LED's making the sticks look like multiples. For some reason that same tech didn't work at all with my A1.
Stills cameras are so behind on global shutters, even if it's usage is niche sticking with scanning sensors at this point is wanton penny pinching.
I believe it's way more than pennies.
Hi David! I know this is not the topic, but I would like to know how to configure the WB on the camera in a show lit with multicolored led lights?
Brazil
I shoot RAW in auto WB and then decide in post. Unless you do photojournalism where color accuracy is super important... in that case I'd try daylight or tungsten depending on the lights they're using.
@@DavidBergmanPhoto Thanks
that banding effect ruined so many shots at concerts when I switched to the mirrorless camera R5 8-/ fortunately we have the mechanical shutter (unlike the newer Nikons). And no, lowering the shutter speed at a concert is definitely no solution, I want sharp photos, not blurry ones with motion. this really, really sucks. I wish I could adjust the frequenzy on my canon like Nikon allows. But yeah... maybe the next generation of cameras can deal with this problem 😀
Thanks for the quick info! Would you say that Electronic First Curtain is the best of both worlds when you can't shoot mechanical? Also, for concerts where you need to shoot quietly I'm guessing electronic is the only way to go, right?
Just curious if you have any insight into cameras that only have first curtain electronic shutter, not full mechanical shutter. And I think I have heard of some camera with electronic shutter allowing for custom shutter speeds. I think this can help the photographer find the sweet spot for their electronic shutter to mitigate or eliminate banding.
It helps a little, but my experience hasn't completely eliminated the issues if you're still using a fast shutter speed.
How much does the anit-flicker feature help? For instance, if banding is shown at 1/250 and only once gone down to 1/125 does it get better with the feature turned off, will the feature get rid of it at 1/250 or only up to about 1/160th? And would a camera with a faster reading sensor allow one to use a faster shutter speed? If so, any examples to give an idea on max SS? An example type I am looking for is, and these are made up numbers, a Canon R6i can go to 1/200th and a R6ii can go to 1/1000.
Although I have not had a chance to put it to the test, the Sony a7IV has an anti-flicker setting for shooting under fluorescent/LED lighting. I’m curious if anyone has had a chance to try it. (Page 262 in the downloadable manual).
I was wondering this as well.
Good explanation above from James Sullivan.
I shoot a lot of concerts with the A7IV using the anti flicker setting and I still get the banding once in a while.
I shoot sports and a lot of the high schools are moving to LEDs on their fields. Shooting at 1/200 or 1/250 isn't really an option for getting crisp clean action shots at a night game.
is there any other way to avoid banding? i'm shooting sports cant use that slow shutter technique.. it's not a real problem solver advice it's more on going around with the problem!
Love this!! Does the stacked sensor in the R3 give a better result at all than an R6 for instance?
Yes but it can still happen
If I remember right, the Sony Alpha A1 has an "Anti Flicker Option" which should handle this banding issue by detecting the LED flickering automatically. But never had the occasion to try if this really works, though...
I think this is only meant to work with fluorescent lighting - not LED.
does the antiflicker setting help with this?
Not enough, in my opinion. It's hit and miss and depends on the camera. James Sullivan above has a good explanation.
@@DavidBergmanPhoto thanks
Hello, to make the same topic, they hired me in a ballet and the same thing happened to me, the problem is that I can't use it in mechanics because it can't make noise, so I have to use it in silent mode, what can I do?
Come to Qatar
You never talked about how to get rid of them. You just said you can’t lol
I shoot music and don't run into much banding, but the background LED screens drive me crazy! They always tear up when I don't shoot at their refresh rates, but sometimes that means dropping to 1/100s or 1/160s, which is definitely NOT good for music.
What camera are you using?