Targeted & Silenced By The Chinese Government | DR HUEY LI | Bridges #19
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- Today Steven solo's the episode with Dr Huey Li, an expert in electoral system. Huey originally joined us a few episodes back at our first round table with Chuck Holton. In this episode they discuss censorship in China, 2-party v multiparty systems, and the importance of democracy.
If you would like to check out Huey Li's work:
Here you can find his TikTok account / drhueyli
And if China is ever successful and he loses his TikTok, here is his Instagram. / drhueyli
00:52 Introductions
02:37 The Reasons Dr. Li Left China
05:03 What Does Chinese Censorship Look Like?
07:06 Dr.Li's Worst Experience with Censorship
09:24 Was Leaving China Difficult?
10:36 The Social Credit Score
12:35 Why Study Political Science?
14:05 The Difference Between China and USA Politics.
14:37 Information Blocked Behind the Great Firewall of China
19:27 Why Stay in the USA?
22:00 The Work to Build Society
25:58 Education in Society/Dictatorships
30:00 Uninformed Trump Voters
31:20 The Really important Decisions
33:01 The Anti Joe Rogan
34:52 The Miracle of Aggregation
35:45 Conspiracy Theories All the Way Down
37:57 Anime, Cartoons, Adult Swim and TV vs Netflix
41:06 Andrew Tate Fans All Think the Same
42:45 Big Conspiracies are Impossible
45:51 The Media Amplifies the Wrong People - hAcademics
49:18 "The Academic World Has to Justify Itself"
55:31 Academics Are Afraid of Making Mistakes
58:20 When Censorship Backfires
1:01:27 What China Fears the Most
1:04:49 China's Closed Door Politics
1:09:21 The Best Political System in the World
1:13:32 Relying on a Country Run by Trump
1:15:23 Americas Biggest Dangers
1:18:50 Dr. Li interjects to bring up the Israel-Palestine issue
1:20:31 Dr. Li asks Destiny What he Thinks About Israel-Palestine
1:25:57 Russia VS Ukraine Could Cause WW3
1:27:30 We Need Military Supremacy Over Hamas
1:32:35 So Many Countries Invaded Israel
1:36:26 Everyone Should Get Along In the Middle East
1:38:56 Stop Worrying About Nukes and Russian Moral Choices
1:46:12 "Did You Ever Play Video Games Growing Up?"
1:49:47 TikTok Feeds You What You Want, and Hamas Supporters
1:54:50 Where to Find DrHueyLi
We are currently being sponsored by none other than the wonderful Ground News! Ground News is a source I (Kyla) personally use a lot as it separates articles into political leanings, as well as reports the sources of each article. I find this super helpful to get an idea of how various political leanings are responding and reporting on various world news!
Use our promo code: check.ground.n...
I'm proud that a fellow Han person, but particularly one that was born and raised in mainland China is able to speak so freely and is willing to disagree and oppose the PRC.
But why are you proud?
@@dxelsonbecause the CCP is so anti free speech that they will literally try to get native dissenters in other countries. They actually attack free speech unlike the people who whine about losing their social media accounts crying about having their free speech taken away.
@@dxelsonBecause there's kinship duh.
Because its rare@@dxelson
Yeah he would be gone if he goes back to china lol
It’s nice that we get a one-on-one talk with Dr Huey Li.
why? where do you know him from?
oh nvm, you mean one on one as oppsed to one on two, got it
I would have liked to see what she would have said at a couple points, great conversation regardless.
@@PedroTrickingbecause the last time he was here he was paired with another guy that ruined the discussion
Yeah the last interview was like an interesting deep conversation about different topics and then randomly my half drunk uncle would jump in with his opinion
Glad this guy came back solo
One of my favorite guests. Would love to keep seeing him on. I feel like Huey’s formal poli sci education meshes super well with destinys wiki warrior style. Like there’s a lot of novel analysis that I don’t hear from pundits
I never really thought about dictators being surrounded by misinformation but it makes quiet a bit of sense.
Mao is a perfect example
Its because dictators don't want to be told no so the guys surrounding them are constantly lying to them.
The emperor has no clothes.
Trump is a good example. Everyone who stood up to him is gone. All replaced with extremists and sycophants.
@@reallivebluescatthat was different though. Mao was a peasant who became a spiritual leader who accidentally became an actual leader. He and his close allies never had the capability to even collect technical information much less parse or act on it.
Meanwhile the CPC today is an extremely well educated, bureaucratic machine with legit economists and scientists. Whether Xi is being fed misinformation is dependent on his circle of trust. This is more similar to Putin and Trump than Mao.
There were rumors/leaks that Putin’s military advisors were scared of accurately describing the state of their military equipment and their military capabilities.
It makes sense if we look at the military tactics in the early days of the invasion. They thought that they could take Kiev in 3-5 days, and the whole Ukraine in a week.
When one dictator holds all the power, the best way to climb the ranks is to tell the dictator what he wants to hear
Can't wait for this, he was such an insightful guest in his last appearance
is this a bot comment?
@@opensocietyenjoyer He's been on the show before
@@opensocietyenjoyer i commented this before the premiere. i mean beep-boop.
Fantastic guest, and a great conversation. This is what Bridges is all about. THANK YOU ERUDITE FOR MAKING THIS HAPPEN.
We really need a TH-cam channel from Dr Li! One of the best guests so far
Couldn’t click on this fast enough. Probably my favorite guest both times!
Destiny I just want to say, whatever you intended bridges to be, this show is amazing. Please don’t end it.
This Chinese guy is very likable. He should be a regular guest
I couldn’t agree more. Such a refreshing change of temperament from the usual trash
@@RedOlympus you took that in a negative direction lol
@@sammyismuff watching his previous guests, it just makes me so sick
what do you like about him?
@@RedOlympus I don't understand your perspective
After the far-right fallout, Destiny talked about how the Bridges podcast has difficulty finding direction. However, I believe this episode and the previous one light up a path. The bridge that is built is not between the left and right, but between experts and the every day person.
I also want to add that Huey is right about being trained to know what to talk about and not, in China. I remember talking to some kids around 13 in an English Language training center when I first got to China. We were talking about something political but not overtly sensitive (at least not by my standards, as an American) and one of the boys got scared somebody would hear us and ran to the window to shut it. At only 13 years old, to have that reaction, was telling
Hadn't heard of this guy before the last time he was on, but I really enjoyed hearing from him and I'm looking forward to more here!
Well done Dr Huey Li, this was a joy to listen to. Great insights
Can Dr. Huey Li become a regular?
I love how he doesn’t try to say things he’s not sure about / doesn’t have strong thoughts on. Brings out the best in Destiny too
Another great interview with Dr Huey Li. Wish he could be on more often
Yay. I love this guy. I hope he has a place in content making after TikTok is gone
Dr. Huey Li is so interesting please invite him more often 👍🏻
The comment section to these episodes are always some of the most positive I’ve ever seen.
Huey Li if you see this I’d love to see more long form content from you. Favorite guest so far!
Excellent episode Steven!
Finally this guy alone
One of the best, if not the best so far.
I love Huey and would love to see more of him and Destiny together.
Dude seems like a nice guy, smart as hell too. Good to see him on Bridges
It’s funny to witness normal smart academics react to the crazy online cesspool of conspiracy theorists
I’m so happy to finally have normal academics enter the popular commentator universe
I think an episode where you deep dive more into China from a normal citizens viewpoint would be interesting.
Steven "Do you play videogames?" Destiny Bonnell.
oh such a good anti censorship take from Huey Li
Awesome!
I hope that the metrics for the podcast meet or exceed whatever y'all need to keep it going. This is quickly becoming the Steven Bonnell content I most look forward to
I love this guy.
Great convo!
intro music is so nice
I'm only half way through so far but what a brilliant episode and guest!
The new intro is very nice. :)
Very interesting
Thank you🙏🏿
Great guest
Amazing guest.
Loved this interview!
My current theory to counter disinformation is the government monitoring algorithms for social media
Great podcast! Love me some Dr. Huey Li!
Oh yeah this guy was cool
So good❤
Great convo
Great episode
How come no Kyla, did she get caught up in Candian/Russian drama as well?
She could be busy
@@Mmmmmatttt I was at the DNC when this was recorded :)
I love him
This was a great podcast. Destiny, you should definitely make use of Dr. Li's offer to come back on the pod at a later time!
Very nice.
Weird flickery lighting behind Li's head. Looks like some auto-adjust thing
Description doesnt seem to have tiktok/instagram links?
love it
Destiny. Please. The 80's and 90s in San Fran.... I was there. It wasn't the fact that we had benevolent regulatory agencies. It is because we shipped all of our production to China. Considering they are having the problems we were expecting to have. It shouldn't be much of surprise. I can actually remember people talking about it while it was happening.
i love this
Never stop inviting him
UC Davis represent
interesting guy, nice episode. thx!
Did August just not feel like time stamping after 15 minutes
Someone send this to Second Thought.
Talking to Destiny as an ESL person should be the final test to get S-tier listening comprehension.
If only the media opposing the CCP in America can see the big picture and join forces to have a round table discussion to inform the public of the serious threat the CCP is to their own people.
Excellent discussion.
Nice conversation. Ask the guest more questions cause we get so much repeats from you while not enough new input from the guest. For people not doing long form we need more of them and less from Destiny. The flickering lights don't help with encoding and quality.
He's used to talking for hours on end as the center of attention, I reckon it'll take some time to adjust to this format
Massive upgrade when you got rid of the note pads and tablets
17:02 the point Huey is trying to make here, maybe he didn't say very well, is that "people will be drawn towards Dave Rubin but also people will be drawn toward Destiny," but I think Destiny misunderstood and thought he meant different people will have pulls on individuals and the individuals will arrive at a balanced position. I think it's more correct to assume that collectively there are pulls in different directions and collectively things arrive at a balanced position. They kinda go back to this at ~30 mins
I like erudite. But I think this pod works better, for the most part, with just destiny.
👏🙂
Very interesting
Damn, he legit sounds afraid when he talks about the CCP
Rightfully so. As someone said: Don't ask are you paranoid, but are you paranoid enough? As they are out to get you.
Your lowly country?
UC DAVIS WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People are right when they say we shouldn't dumb down arguments and statements. As Destiny said, people selectively use knowledge to strengthen their point, if we give into simplifying things we just make it easier for deception to prevail. German laws about people not knowing the laws, not saving them should be implemented into social norms. Just because you're dumb on a topic doesn't allow you to argue about it, like wtf. I always find it funny when Destiny's in a discord debate and instead of taking 3 seconds to google something on their machine they choose consciously to stay uninformed or propagandist.
Dear God Mr. Bonnelli here is exhausting.
These episodes are wayyyy better when it’s just Destiny
The social credit system is being piloted in certain areas in China, but is not nation-wide yet. But regardless, they can definitely still do things to stop you from getting on trains and using other services as peoples ID's are linked to basically everything: payments, social media, even video game accounts (I had to use a friends ID to play World of Warcraft in China). Even saying something politically sensitive on an online game could potentially land you in a lot of trouble.
you messed up the audio at the end for ground news sponsor
I wonder if there anyone who just watches bridges but not destiny
Some destiny piano into, nice
The background part at the beginning was a slog, ngl. This convo got so much more interesting the longer it went.
Lysenko was the Alex Jones of his time
Where's your host?
Glad tiny read some Fukuyama. For the lulz
with the Trump potentially not defending Taiwan..., congress can force his hand. Congress has the power to declare war. Trump has a serious ego and is obsessed with his legacy, he would not want to be the president that surrenders in a war.
Maybe its just me but the angle destiny is sitting makes the light hit his nose in a way that looks like his right nostril has a wicked booger hangin out. Im pretty sure its the angle and the light but it could be boogie or im just trippin lol
5:25 not true, The idea that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is illegal is a legal myth. The quote is often attributed to Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, but it was used as an analogy in the 1917 case Schenck versus United States. The case was about a man who was charged with violating the Espionage Act for speaking out against the draft.
where's Erudite?
Chinese controlling is kinda delicate, not like the literal 1984 style and you do have a lot of freedom to post something on internet as long as you're not a public figure. And even if you are, like if you are a gay influencer, you can say a lot of things, even about the frustration that you can't marry, but if you say "let's gather and have a social advocate" you'll be in trouble. I don't think CCP has any homophobic tendency, but it is very sensitive to anything is potentially related to social adovocate.
So if you're not very political, in so many cases you can't feel the control. Controlling also contains algorithm, it's not that obvious. They didn't put a lot of people in jail, but they made a national level protest totally disappear from public discourse.
growl @ 1:19:06/7
Not sure why all the positive feedback for this guy. The insights on China were nice, as a Chinese American myself - but once the convo got going it was just a pattern of him bringing up some cursory insight and cutting it off abruptly with “yeah”. He reminds of me of that one friend who always brings up an observation or quirk but never commits to the full analysis and relies on other people for the application or impact. In this interview so many times it was Destiny who had to land the thought, while Dr. Li just kept going “yeah there’s this thing, yeah I don’t know, yeah”.
I think the English gets in the way, don't you think?
@@LeoHuangNZ I don’t think so . When he was willing to commit he made great points. I think it’s just a communication issue - he doesn’t sound great when he’s weedling around, but Destiny did a great job of making those thoughts concrete.
He helped round out my understandings of dictatorships, and seemed to do the same for Destiny.
Having people who believe broadly the same things as you, who also have different perspectives can be amazing for fleshing out how you view the world.
I think Destiny also isn't overly familiar with 1-1 style interviews (particularly agreeable ones), which probably doesn't help the conversation move along
China nr 1 very clean streets 🤗🤗im not paid by the ccp and Xi does not look like winnie the pooh 🤭china very much strong other countries jealous 🤗 strong big china 🤗 very clean no gutter oil streetfood
Ok, bot
@Jobe-13 you ok?
@@Jobe-13 im not a bot lol, are you?
I want to know what the chinese perspective is on the feebleness of their leadership style. Like doesn’t it seem super weak and embarrassing to run a country where any criticism is dangerous? Seems obvious and on the nose. Like the way a child throwing a tantrum would run a country.
Battle of the haircuts!
1:52:00 wait you need to spend multiple hours to vote in the US?
❤
The problem with going to a podcast like joe rogan's to debate, is that it's hardly going to be useful or fair unless you come in actually knowing what he will say.
All he has to do is throw weird "facts" that you don't know about at you to get a narrrative W, "facts" that you can't actually counter unless you investigate them deeply.
Sometimes you can win with a quick google search, but other times, when it's half truths, you can't deal with them without analyzing the subject with double the effort of the person who threw them at you.
Debunking garbage is a lot harder than believing and defending garbage. So it's a risky pain in the ass to go on Joe Rogan's podcast to deal with his garbage.
If I was one of those experts, I'd only appear if Joe told me before hand, what exactly are his issues and main arguments, to have actual time to prepare.
Tiny looks sleepy
China open class action
After that north korean defector, I’m wary… 👀
4:27
Am i crazy or did destiny's head look giant in this vid
Only 20 minutes into this convo but there are several things I do want to point out. I don't know when the last time was that this guy went to China but quite a lot of things have changed since then.
1. He speaks about internet censorship in China. Although this is mostly true, it also really depends on what it is you are saying and who you are. He mentions that you are allowed to criticize policies, as long as it isn't a sensitive topic such as TIbet (and currently Taiwan) which is true. But it mostly just boils down to what your goal is. Are you trying to rile up people into a protest? Are you someone with a lot of influence? Then you are definitely going to be censored. But the protest part still really depends. For those of you who don't know, the zero-covid policy in China was ended because lots of people went onto the streets in protest, because the policy was destroying businesses and livelyhoods. Within a week of those protests the zero-covid policy was ended. I know this because I live in one of the cities where people went out to protest (Chengdu).
2. Most young people nowadays have a VPN. This is especially true if you live in the bigger cities. The great firewall does have its uses, but as time will go on and more and more people will have a VPN, the power of the firewall will degrade.
3. It is not that difficult to move your hukou. It is difficult to move your hukou to the big cities which are already above capacity. Beijing has over 21 million people living there. In order to keep some order, it has to be difficult to move your hukou to those types of cities. But if you aim for lower tier cities then it is actually a lot easier to move your hukou.
4. He speaks about the air pollution in Beijing. I will admit that when I lived there in 2017, the smog was quite bad. But it has improved a lot over the years. I lived in Beijing from 2017 till 2022 and the air quality improved drammatically. Clear blue skies are very common. However, there are occasional sand storms due to the geographic location of Beijing.
5. Social credit system. It works as intended. People get punished for bad behavior. Think about traffic violations, disorderly conduct in public transport, etc. No you do not get punished for walking around with an open can of beer, shitfaced. Jaywalking isn't really a thing here. Even if the light is still red, you can cross the street as a pedestrian (and even if you are driving a bike or a scooter) for as long as you aren't hindering traffic.
6. He spoke about having some of his "friends" end up in jail, but he never explained what for. I know about some people who went to jail because they did some illegal stuff. Sometimes, the government will decide to tear down very old buildings to build new ones, and if those buildings are apartement buildings, the government will basically buy back all the apartments that are owned by citizens. And the governments pays a looooooooot of money. If you own an apartment in those buildings you will instantly become rich. Some people have insider knowledge about which buildings the government is planning on tearing down, and just like how insider trading is illegal, it is also illegal to use this knowledge to buy an apartment in those buildings, knowing that the government is planning to tear it down. Quite a lot of people got put in jail because they did this. This is an example of what Dr. Li may have been talking about, but if he doesn't specify why his friends ended up in jail, it is unfair for us to automatically think that they ended up in jail because CCP bad or whatever.
And no, Winnie The Pooh is not banned in China.
So i googled you name found your insta and linkedin, you're a software engineer in china and you think you have any idea of the true and real expriences detailed here? just shut up and listen, your experience as an immigrant in china is NOT the exprience of natives.
and yes CCP is bad
restricting people's ability to travel within the country because of their political opinions IS BAD.
restricting people's access to information IS BAD
are you actually a bot?
@@nabicx Why would my experiences, and the ones of all the Chinese people I interact with on a daily basis not be real? Also, if you read everything I said, you would know that I am not necessarily disagreeing with what Dr Li is saying. I am merely adding some more info (and also some updated info as to what is happening in China right now in 2024. He said that he left China in 2007/2008. Not sure if he has been back since then, but a lot has changed since then). An example of this is when he said that several of his friends are in jail but he never said anything about why they ended up there. I gave an example of why some people did end up in jail.
And yes I agree with you that my life as an immigrant here is not the same as a local. But there are many locals that I do communicate with on a daily basis (I'm also married to one) and their oppinions don't differ much from mine.
Does the CCP do bad things? Yes. So does the American government. Is the CCP a bad government? If you look at it from the perspective of an American living in America then you would believe that they are. I can tell you that a lot of Chinese people in China also consider the American government quite bad. It all depends on perspective.
Also, have you ever been to China? If you haven't then your opinion doesn't even matter since all you know is what others tell you.
@@Voidstroyer
let's go point by point of your OG comment bc i'm waiting for food and I love dumbass tankie takes
>1. He speaks about internet censorship in China. Although this is mostly true, it also really depends on what it is you are saying and who you are.
Here you are justifying censorship, which is cool and all but don't try to frame it as a good thing, you can't even get an accurate history of China from inside the country.
> He mentions that you are allowed to criticize policies, as long as it isn't a sensitive topic such as TIbet (and currently Taiwan) which is true. But it mostly just boils down to what your goal is. Are you trying to rile up people into a protest?
Ah okay so you're allowed to talk about things but you're not allowed to do anything about it? Good! Such a good and free country that respects it's population.
I shouldn't have to explain why allowing people to "talk" when they don't allow them to "act" is not good.
> 2. Most young people nowadays have a VPN.
Censorship is fine because there are ways around it? Cool. You really do enjoy the censorship dont you? You justify it all over.
> 5. Social credit system. It works as intended. People get punished for bad behavior
This is a WILD misconstruction of what the Social Credit system is for. Sure technicaly do bad things get consquences, but isn't that what courts are for? So the justice is not given out by algorithms but by actual people that look at each and every case?
Even then if it was a perfect system, the way it's implemented is bordering on a SkyNet-like implementation. They can prohibit you from traveling within your own country for dissenting political opinions (which isn't a problem for you since you seem to be pro censorship), for hanging out with people that have bad Social Credit. Those are all very bad policies.
The Social Credit System was so bad that there was backlash from average Chinese people and yet here you are, a foreigner, defending the right of a country's regime to oppress the populance.
> 6. He spoke about having some of his "friends" end up in jail, but he never explained what for. I know about some people who went to jail because they did some illegal stuff.
You're drawing conclusions with no evidence, no wonder you like Bing Chilling so much.
Ever heard of the Uyghurs? Ever heard of Tibet? Ever heard of Taiwan? You say it yourself on the first point that people who organize protests SHOULD be censored and yet here you DENYING the censoring exists IN THE SAME EXACT COMMMENT.
________________________
At this point I think you're an actual bot, I've skimmed thru your crendentials and online presence and it's all very Egon like.
In conclusion you're just another CCP simp, no wonder you're trying to deny the true experiences of a native citizen because they don't align with your supreme leader's ideas of what China is like.
Good day to you.
@@nabicx Let's take a step back since you are obviously being bad faith here.
1. I never justified ALL forms of censorship, I'm merely saying that each government has their own rules for what they censor. Lots of American companies are also censoring stuff (the entire Israel/Palestine thing is a good example of this. Especially the pro Palestine people seem to be getting censored left and right all the time), but I will grant you that those private companies and not the American government. But I doubt that most people would care if it's the government doing the censorship, or if it's a private company doing. If that censorship is directed at them, they will hate it all the same. So no I am not pro censorship, I merely understand why it happens.
2. "Ah okay so you're allowed to talk about things but you're not allowed to do anything about it?". So you are just going to completely ignore the part where I said that lots of people protested the zero-covid policy and managed to get the government to get rid of it within a single week? Protests happen in China all the time. Maybe I misspoke when I said that organizing protests is censored. What I should have said is that depending on what the protest is for (for example, Tibet, Taiwan, or simply overthrowing the government) it will get censored. I have never stated that I am pro censorship. As someone who lives here and uses a VPN pretty much 99% of the time, you would think that I am actually against censorship, which I am to an extent. But you will always have some amount of censorship. Porn isn't allowed in facebook, but it is allowed twitter. Do you think that Facebook is a bad company because of that censorship?
3. "you can't even get an accurate history of China from inside the country." Which would also mean that you definitely can't get an accurrate history of China from outside the country. But then again, this would be true for almost every country on the planet since history is always told by who ever is left, which means that it's full of bias.
4. The social credit system. I never mentioned anything about it being automated though. And I doubt that it is beyond some speed cameras on the road. Everything else as far as I know is still done manually. If you do some dumb shit on the subway or on a train, a security guard will take your info and report you. No the system is not like Skynet.
5. "You're drawing conclusions with no evidence, no wonder you like Bing Chilling so much.". I am not drawing conclusions. In fact I am doing the opposite. I am providing examples of what some people have been arrested for and I said that it COULD be possible that something similar happened to his friends. But without him giving any examples we (and I mean YOU) can't really say that his friends ended up in jail just because the CCP wanted them in jail for some arbitrary reason. Basically what he said was "some of my friends ended up in jail" and then you were like "Oh the CCP is so evil" without even knowing if his friends ended up in jail for legitimate reasons or not.
6. "You say it yourself on the first point that people who organize protests SHOULD be censored". When did I ever say that they "SHOULD" be censored? I said that they will be censored if they do those things, I never said that they should be. Stop being bad faith.
7. Yes I have heard about the Uygurs (The official word doesn't have an H in the spelling). I have a couple of friends who are from XingJiang.. Yes I know about Tibet. Yes I know about Taiwan. What about em?
Also, it's spelled Bing Qi Lin. And yes I do like ice cream thank you very much.