Is Tekken 8 Adding Too Many Ingredients?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มี.ค. 2024
- Ice cream on top of pizza sounds cool but I'm beginning to think they felt like they had to have the pizza there for some reason...we can just have ice cream...
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The game is super aggressive until one guy is in heat and the other guy has rage.
That line at the end got me deep in thought “Am I bitchin too much? Are you bitchin not enough?”
I agree with Arslan when he said Heat should be earned, not just given to you every round. If you had to actually decide between using heat this round or saving it for the next it would make things a lot more interesting.
You get where I'm going with this
What you're describing perfectly sums up why Soul Calibur 6 was so unappealing imo. A refilling gauge to spend to either enter proto-Heat (Soul Charge) or execute a cinematic super? Fine by itself but thrown on top of a clunky Injustice-like RPS cinematic minigame that ruins the flow of the game that lets you absorb incoming hits as long as you hold it and that can be used for FREE????
But other than that, I think T8 did refine SC6's Soul Charge pretty well to integrate it within Tekken as the heat system to shake up the Tekken gameplay foundation just enough for the game to feel new but still retain that signature legacy foundation. Of course, there are balancing issues that can be refined over time: imo Heat Burst should be punishable on block (-10 is a good compromise to not make it too punishing for lowbies who wanna panic mash burst) and some Heat Smashes are way overtuned.
We're in a post SF4 time, so modern FGs will never be rid of cinematic supers because they need that shit in their games to make trailers exciting and as some sort of crutch to express a character's personality. A good compromise would be to make Rage Arts similar to MK Fatal Blows: a comeback super that can only be landed once per match. But I totally agree with you, rage's damage boost on top of having heat available is already more than enough as a comeback mechanic, having Rage Art on top of that feels absurd. Low hitting heat smashes are basically hellsweeps that are not death on block and mid hitting smashes guarantee a 50/50 on block, why the fuck do you also need to have a super that is available every round and that can armor through everything in the game
I just wish that heat burst wouldn't be + on block, that's all.
I totally agree , if I block a heat smash why do I have to take a guaranteed 50/50
mac n cheese on top of chinese food still kinda fire tho
if you're stoned sure, but I see your point
Ragearts conflict with Heat and Harada's vision of a more aggressive game. When someone has Rageart ready to fire that will kill you then you cannot press any button, you have to respect it or you die. Now add Heat on top of that and you cannot even move, you just have to defend.
Compared to OG Tekken, it's harder to close with all these mechanics.
Probably from a spectators point of view, it looks good but from a players point of view, it's frustrating and even more stressful than before.
I've always hated rage arts for that exact reason
People like to cope and say "just bait it out bro"
Yea sure I can bait
But the problem is that they added a mechanic in the game that makes me forfeit my momentum
I have to respect someone that should be respecting me
It's not that I can't bait it out
Its the principle
It's scrubby
And that's all this game feels like to me
Synthetic interaction
Honestly I feel like this is a genre-wide problem. Anime games popularized having layers upon layers of universal mechanics that seem to end up de-emphasizing the unique strengths and weaknesses of individual characters. SF did it with the drive system, Soul calibur did it for some reason, tekken is just following the trend. A side-effect of that I feel like not enough people talk about (or are scared to because of wanting to keep getting those sweet esport bucks) is that it really doesnt end up adding much to competitive play, and at worst, it can actually make competitive play worse.
It really sucks, imo, because I liked that tekken was the game that set itself apart by NOT having dumb cinematic supers and gauges and dash cancels and crap like that. It's cool to have that in some games, but every fighitng game on the market? It feels like GG, SF, Tekken, and others are all just kind of cannibalizing eachother in their designs.
I'm dreading whatever sega's cooking up to try and fuck up virtua fighter with this same stuff.
Wow tekken has actual cinematic supers for the first time? How awful.
The SF6 Drive Gauge system is simplified but at the same time very in depth and smartly designed. It's quite different from just throwing a bunch of half mashed unrelated mechanics together like in Tekken 8.
Let's go back to the days when TK was more boring than it is today.
If Virtua Fighter was still a game series outside of Like a Dragon side quests, then I would not care that Tekken followed such trends. I got back into Tekken, straight to 7 from 3, as a lament that Virtua Fighter only lives on with enthusiast communities. Tekken 8's inclusion of two distinct comeback mechanics which create additional visual noise makes me miss Virtua Fighter all the more (No, I do not claim the hit sparks in VF5US.).
I agree with you, I always liked that Tekken is a fighting game with martial artists mostly, that mostly just punch and kick each other. With a few exceptions, and more added with every installment.
the cinematics I totally agree, it's something I have a problem in every modern game pretty much
but in tekken 8 is specially egregious because of how long rage arts are for how often you get to use them
just look at how people just stop doing fatalities in MK after a while
tekken rounds are pretty quick, if you have each player doing a rage art every round, it gets REALLY TIRING REALLY FAST
I think heat is pretty good, but rage still sucks ass
Absolutely agree
Hopefully rage art gets nerfed anyway and we only have to see the whiff animation lmao
@@TruthAndReconciliation I also think players should be able to skip their cinematcs
Or just block it for a free massive combo punish? If yall stopped falling for panic rage arts people would stop throwing them out every round LMAO
@@lexen5068 That's true, but the fact that you have to play around it in the first place is the problem. If the goal of Tekken 8 is to be aggressive focused, every round ending in a situation that encourages turtling on both sides doesn't make sense.
Heat and rage just aren’t interesting enough to justify how insanely powerful they are. Heat is just an “unga bunga, it’s always my turn now” button for twenty seconds every single round, and it is just exhausting to play with and against.
My favourite parts of the game is that 30% of a round when both people have already used heat and aren’t low enough to be in rage.
As a new player, my favorite part of Tekken is when you are just punching and kicking each other. The core gameplay is extremely good. All of the extra shit like heat and rage just gets in the way of the fun part of the game. It's often annoying. But I agree it would have been better if they had just only focused on one (heat) rather than having both.
i hate mfers that just rage art galaxy brain just when u are pressuring
I’m a huge tekken fan and been playing since tekken 2, and adding all the new mechanics is so overwhelming, that I haven’t even really played the new one and bought it day one but is like do I even feel like getting into all the new stuff
@billywelch4611 its not that complex. Heat is pretty easy to grasp after some playtime.
recoverable health is really the biggest problem for me. neutral playing around dying to a quick low is a tekken classic that is now ruined by jun making me block some shit and now she's got 40 hp
Healing on block should be removed completely. On hit it can at least add some hype ig.
I've hated rage arts since they added them in T7, instead of actually earning your come back with careful planning of your moves you can simply punish your opponent for half their fucking HP because they threw out a jab it's so fucking stupid.
Power crushes are ass too
then why not go back to an older tekken and enjoy it
A lot of power crushes are jab punishable
I use Rage Art on reaction a whole lot, I won't lie. My ghost constantly does perfectly timed Rage now. It's almost guaranteed it'll catch me.
Heat shouldn't be a mini rage art, it should have an activation attack without any fancy animation for combo extension, do chip damage, and use heat dash, there shouldn't be a heat smash.
I’m a little new to tekken but after playing for a little bit I agree lol having the heat and the rage art is a little too much to deal with in addition to all the other moves you have to learn
It's very easy to turn a game around in T8 when you're low hp with Rage art + Heat Burst. One launcher for a combo with Rage art/Heat Burst into a oki for another Rage art/Heat Burst ender with his ass on the wall (+ probably a sweep to end the dude on the ground).
But yeah they know what they're doing. They want T8 to be like this.
i just dont know why/who this appeals to lmao
@@doogies Gotta get that general audience. Gamble it all on a Heat. "You too can Tekken" lol
I want them to start with changing Heat Smash to do no damage. As low commitment an option as it is, it does not need to be able to win a round for you.
Or if it is damaging, make them unsafe. Supers exist in many other games already, and while powerful they also almost always have clear counterplay and still need to be used strategically. What's the counterplay against Jun's heat smash? Practically nothing lol.
Personally, I think that the heat system is great and it really spices up the gameplay that have been similar for a long time. I think that the game would not be nearly as fun without it.
However I do think that the rage arts makes the flow of the game less fun especially when you add heat.
It would have made sense to me to remove rage arts since you have heat smashes as well.
Like you said, it does feel a bit weird to have both of these systems in the same game, since they don’t play off of each others.
Now that obama is talking about this elephant in the room, we can start having actual discussions about these mechanics instead of being dismissed with "git gud" responses.
Git gud
First off, I appreciate your hard work and discussion topics like this. Makes me think about the topic in a different perspective.
I appreciate the new mechanics as I view them as giving the option to add a little flavor to player expression.
You can play and win without using heat or rage arts. As I've progressed further in ranked, I've noticed less use of the Heat system as a panic/ get out of jail free mechanic. But they always have that option available to them.
And I think as time goes on, because the characters are so diverse, the "meta" of the game won't get stale as 10 people can play the same character 10 different ways and heat compliments it. Some use it for aggression, some use it for defense.
Rage mode is that defacto comeback mechanic so we know that's not going away and ngl, sometimes I need that boost when Bryan fury is beating my ass. 😂😂
i dont expect any of it to go away, but we can all agree its lame/too much
Would be so gangster if they removed rage from the game completely. Heat and heat smash are enough, the rage system is practically redundant. When you're in the kitchen, reduce, reduce, reduce
I agree.
would legit be a god patch if they did that lol
these systems are not cool to watch in a tournament or while playing the game yourself.
i still remember watching evo japan arslan vs knee kazumi vs kazuya and saying to my self goddamn this is perfect tekken gameplay, amazed that this level of players can control their characters this way it was like art.
fast forward tekken 8 you losing while blocking and a character doing a kamehameha from full screen and you get punished for blocking it, cant even SS these cinematic moves, idk about yall but i was waiting so long for tekken 8 and now its here and i already miss tekken 7.
I actually welcome the heat system, it’s pretty balanced I’d say compared to the CNT. I’m the kinda guy that likes layers and extra detail. Though, I agree with you that some characters benefit more greatly than others when Heat is active. Heat Devil Jin and Heat Devil Kazuya are worlds apart for example. As a whole, the balancing between the S tier characters and everyone else under them could CERTAINLY see some changes. But this is a problem that’s been present since T7. All we can do is hope that Bamco will deliver with the future patches. That said I’m still very much so enjoying Tekken 8, it’s by far the best Tekken game yet. The general gameplay, the tutorial and replay system, and ghost battles are all so hype. My boi Raven is honestly the strongest he’s ever been. And I’m ranking up with him pretty nicely I’d say. I think he edges out Maven by a considerable bit when accounting Heat in the picture.
a silver lining about kazuya's options in heat being kind of mid is that it simplifies the decision making tree and justifies using heat dash as a pressure tool, i've closed many a round by using something like db1,2 into heat dash for plus frames into f4/low
even tho kaz doesn't benefit that much from his specific upgrades in heat, he still can play t8 because of the new system mechanics and likewise (probably) for other characters with mediocre toolkits in heat
@@Adrian-mk9vr Oh yeah man db1,2 is arguably Kazuya’s best Heat Engager. Its Heat Dash utility is a BIG saving grace for him considering the value of plus frames and mix.
A key factor for me is that taking away rage drives means that there is only one active way to use rage from the perspective of a beginner / intermediate player. I think that’s why we see more rage arts as panic moves, especially since it scales so much in combos.
Your suggested changes to heat are exactly the kinds of things I was suggesting… a year ago.
I think heat every round is here to stay, but I would like if there was more flexibility to it. I would like it if they let you pick whether to have access to heat smash or not, and maybe they could offer additional heat dash or more access to heat moves as an option. Again I don’t think that’s changing any time soon.
Tl;dr t7 was better
I think one of the things I liked that they added was screw/tornado moves re-wallsplating. Makes it so on the combo end of things, there’s a reward for having good wall carry combos that don’t use it as apposed to T7 where bnbs used screw most of the time because if you have it why not use it.
I think I’d be fine id they got rid of rage, and made heat slightly longer . Better yet make heat like an actual meter . You can use your character abilities at any time but it drains the meter . You build it back up by getting hit and attacking . Can only use heat smash with full meter .
From my understanding with Harada interviews, the cinematics were heavy in drawing in executives, but I don't believe as many actual players are interested in them. Especially with faster paced games (and VF coming soon) I feel it can really cut into the flow. However, I wonder if the raw Heat Burst activation actually has one because of that; it creates a bit of a mental reset for a break in pressure. It'd be great, if absolutely necessary, it only came then and not when used in combo. The numerous camera zoom-in's are entirely jarring, and that and the level of some of the hit sparks really seem like they're done more so with the purpose as a graphical flex than artistic design. I do applaud them though for all the little bits of charm they've added in character personality and rivalry intros (and *some* of the VAs popped off.)
On the Rage/RA front, while it's not necessarily my favorite mechanic as a whole and kind of the other half of the GUTS coin, I do feel this is the first time it's actually integrated into anything else. Long before it was just tacked on and the damage was egregious. Now it cuts the chip damage taken, and because of white life the state can even be of value outside of normal Rage health parameters, and RA suddenly becomes almost a necessary last ditch defensive mechanic to prevent late match Heat/Heat Smash steamrolling. I do like how at least in T8 armor/super moves do have some form of counter play opposed to other games. It would be great if we could reverse things out of the pre-SFIV non-canned Super state and go back to having tons of different post-super differences, but alas.
Personally always liked how Tekken has simultaneously been one of the easiest fighting games to get into and one of the most complex at the highest level, and I think T8 widens that even more while it and T7 have vastly improved a lot of aspects of the spectating hype. I love the idea of white life in Tekken and can really see it becoming as exciting as it is in VSav. I think like how slow-mo started things, it really can bring a lot of engagement to the ends of rounds and seemingly decided situations. More interactive states like that which have a push/pull engagement that values smart defense over simple turtling states IMO should be rewarded in all fighting games.
I think for Heat it would've been great overall if it was more like Under Night where it was a shared meter that they had to fight over, you can gain from good defense, and the usage of Heat moves came with some level of risk/reward in relation to your opponent. Alternatively, I thought something like how Burst can be used in different ways in MBON this too could either enhance like movement, parries/throws, oki, pressure, etc. I don't see the issue of Heat every round because I think the goal is to have the new capabilities at your fingertips every round, more like TOP in Garou, it's just that it's very oppressive right now. In many cases if Heat or Rage were on a rolling meter, I feel it'd make things too predictable and almost always be used at the same points, and it'd create too many one-sided situations when someone lacks its presence at a deficit. Really the value in Heat should be in its utility, not the damage, if they want people to interact in that state more and not simply use it for combos/damage cash-out.
Overall, I think the goal should be to have things stray away from the only reasonable counter to Heat being Heat (it should have its own downsides to being in the state), and the tracking and white life strength of a lot of moves seem to need adjustment. Heat Smash seems to need some level of refinement in how to keep it strong but make it more engaging for both parties; it feels like low HS should be parry-able, mids extremely linear, and the 10f high probably very punishable. It's hard to assess some things because people's defense is just so bad at all levels right now, and there's a lot that's changed, like all the oki and throw changes, but I think we have a fair idea that some of the forced offense is a bit much (WR adjustment? Tracking throws? Unbreakable standing throws? White life deleting moves?)
But, I think the bones are there for something pretty special, and between that and the stages (which also need adjusting), I applaud them for taking the first significant risk with the franchise since 4 and hope they stick forward with refining that vision rather than catering to players that simply want a 2.5 of their past favorites. Overall, I feel the true formula to aggression and fast paced play, if that's what they're after, is to significantly lower damage and improve movement, so people will be more compelled to take risks and engage, and the number of interactions per round will increase (Melty.) Great video!
@1:45 I thought he was talking about a kinda plausible plug situation 😂
List of things I would remove:
- Rage Art
- Heat Engagers
- Heat Smash
List of things I would keep:
- Rage State
- Heat Burst
- Heat Dash
- Enhanced Moves during Heat
I used to feel the same way about heat but have come around to really enjoying it and loving the mechanic. Some characters have way to many animations with it(azucena going "vamos" after the knee, Lars, ect) but the application of it both defense and offensively are wide but take a long time to understand especially if your not a veteran. A property that I feel most ppl don't utilize enough is that using the heat dash in off axis combos will realign the opponent to you! Allowing for combos from situations not possible before, this even applies if it's the used as a combos started from the side or back of the opponent. Heat burst, although is spammy and used as a panic move, can be used as a reactionary way to launch the opponent if you know they are considered to be in an airborne state. Using it to stop Lili, Alisa, azucena, and basicly giving a low parry combo while still having access to your tailspin bound.
That being said, characters strength in heat differe greatly but the basis of heat allows for some pretty creative application both offensive and defensively.
In regards to ragearts; if it catches you raw, it's the players fault most of the time. But after blocking a million moves that are plus or neutral on block in to heat burst to steal a turn back into rage art because it's finally your turn feels like ass. But only like 4 characters can do this. (Mainly hwo)
Soul Calibur is an ominous example. Jumping from SCII to SCVI is such an off-putting experience. Game gets interrupted every 5 seconds to have an """epic""" special attack, so much visual noise, so many different systems. It gets exhausting, I just want clean gameplay. Unfortunately I think we're stuck with having both of these systems for the rest of T8 at least
unfortunately I know you are right. also appreciated the SCVI comparison
A couple things I think could be interesting:
Make RA only available in Heat, and they consume all Heat upon activation.
Get rid of tornado state outside of Heat. Tornadoes and run cancels can be made available in Heat. Admittedly this might have a huge amount of ramifications, but I still think it can make things interesting.
What im going to say is Bandai let the stength of their graphical fidelity in this game lead their game design. They increased the amount of cinematics for the spectacle of the game. For this they needed to introduce more mechanics which was the heat system and heat bursts as a consequence. It sold very well as a result of these changes. But food that looks good doesnt mean it tastes good. Sure, it'll look good on Instagram but you eat it enough and you realize if the core ingredients dont work well together the food is shit.
Tbh this is exactly where a virtual fighter would fit in perfectly. Let tekken be the crazy over the top 3D fighter while you VF for a more scaled back fighting game that still has tons of depth.
Been playing since T1 and feel fine about the mechanics.
Things can always be a little refined and I'm sure it will in time, but i think heat and rage is really cool. Especially the way both mechanics express the character's personalities in game.
On the topic of T8, I do agree the whole Rage system can go. Recovering health on block is annoying too. I think as the ESports economy of FGs grows, we're going to run into an NFL problem. The NFL made all these rule changes heavily favoring offense that aren't just bad, but also unnecessary, for the competitive health of the game. The problem is the NFL did it to increase viewership, and it worked tremendously. The NFL has grown to the point where it's now only behind Soccer. So, even though they know it's bad for the game, they're being incentivized to continue down this path. I feel FGs are finally reaching that crossroads of viewers and sponsors or the players.
I would love the game a lot more if there was no rage. Some people just tell me to go back to older games (including Harada), and I'm like yes, release them on PC and I'm going back to T5DR or TTT2 in a heartbeat.
Think about this, once you get the game, you're not the target audience, it's the stream viewers or the video watchers. The people that want to see flashy stuff during a hype tournament. Sounds crazy, right? What other product does this to you?
i'm tired of fiddling around avoiding to press my own buttons because heat smash, rage art or a power crush can turn the entire round around, since they tend to chain into each other. Honestly I'm waiting for vf6 now.
As someone who's playing their first Tekken game I don't really have the history of how all the past games felt but I like the heat system overall. I agree it probably needs some tuning especially on Heat Smashes but I think it's a good layer and the additions to some of the characters moves when in heat is cool. I think the point made that the Heat system and Rage system don't really mesh is the best part of the video and something that when mentioned I immediately agreed with, they seem a bit too slapped on top of one another.
I don't really mind having heat every round and honestly with Heat Engagers I don't think you can really do it any other way, like I play Reina for example if Heat was only once per match I couldn't really use SEN 3 or DF1,2 as examples unless I really wanted to got into heat which imo takes away strong parts of her kit. But I do wonder if they could do something like you can only Heat Smash OR Rage Art in the round, basically if you use Heat Smash you can't rage art at low health. Honestly with how strong Heat Smash is that'll probably mean we end up seeing people almost always use that instead of Rage Art but from my understanding Rage was mainly used for Rage Drive in Tekken 7 so it'd probably be about the same. Maybe you could include Heat Dash in there as well but not sure about that.
Rage art per match (one use) instead of round would make more sense now that we have the entire Heat system in the game.
It would also be a lot more exciting mechanic and more carefully used.
I really like the IDEA of heat. A meter you can use that will enhance certain traits and key moves for each character, that sounds cool and adds a lot of depth. The issue I have with it is its execution and that in terms of balancing, it's an entirely new dimension that needs to be taken into account. We've had balancing issues for such a long time, and instead of getting a firm handle on that, we're given a new way characters can be broken.
It's like there has been so much power-creep that it's hard for me to see where each character is meant to shine and where they're weak. I think FrameWhisperer mentioned how having a 10f punish that could transition into stance is REALLY good, and it seems like it's pretty common now (I know Jin and Reina have that, I'm assuming other characters have it, though he was ranting about Jin at the time lol).
I see glimmers of how things could be balanced to make each character have something really cool about them (Nina and Shaheen having throws that remove your recoverable life, Lee's million just frames -- though I know he's had those for a while, King having weaker easy-mode chain throws and more damaging and execution heavy versions, etc), and if they'd just really leaned into that, I would've loved the game so much more. You have all these ways to balance a character, like wall travel, wall pressure, block punishes, WS punishes, whiff punishes, combo damage, counter hit utility, evasiveness, stances and which moves transition into them, execution, frame data, approach tools, homing tools, mixups, parries, range, and on and on. I just wish they'd done more on that front rather than just ignore it and just put meter into the game. I liked that Tekken didn't have that.
Not to mention, the way you engage it is annoying. Sometimes I want to use Jin's ff2 without going into heat, but since I can't do that I'm limited in the way I get to play the game. It's kind of a bummer that Bamco are more concerned with making a game that would look more engaging as a spectator, rather than making a game that is a lot of fun and really rewarding; they're trying to get people to play more aggressively. Always attack, keep attacking, throw out launchers, do your heat engager, do power crushes, do heat smash, do rage art, go go go go!!!! It's like going from chess to hungry hungry hippos.
And the zoom in when you hit 2+3 might look cool and cinematic at first, after a month or two of seeing it twice a round for every match you play, it gets super tired and worn out VERY quickly. Same for the rage arts.
The food comparison is appropriate in my eyes. It's like getting a steak at a restaurant, and it's not cooked to your liking. It's seasoned well, it's what you ordered, it's just not executed correctly. You send it back, and they bring you another steak that still isn't cooked to your liking, but it's covered in Flamin' Hot Cheetos dust. You send it back again and they bring out another steak, this one is deep fried and filled with Velveeta. You ask for just a regular god damned steak, and the staff all say in unison "don't ask me for shit". It's just covering up and obscuring and neglecting the thing that I actually want, and pouring cheep tasteless extras onto it to make it more appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator.
The more I think about this, the saltier I get. Sorry for the novel lol.
I don't mind the cinematics too much (though I'd love it if we could skip them), my only issue with both heat and rage is that your opponent just becomes this walking nuclear bomb capable of undoing all your progress in just a couple of reads with 0 execution requirements (and so do you when you get rage of course). I feel like it dominates the match too much, and as soon as someone pops heat or gets rage, the other player has to hit the breaks really hard and just wait for their heat to run out or block the rage art. Not to mention the fact that most mid heat smashes are safe and give free mixups.
I didn't like the Rage Art in Tekken 7 and I thought it ruined the game. Up until Tekken 8 my favorite was Tekken 5 maybe still my favorite. Heat System is good but it feels like they just wanted to stuff something in the new game to make it different from Tekken 7 and it's predecessors.
I don't mind rage personally, the rage art animations are a bit long though. Heat smashes feel way more intrusive to me since they don't really have a weakness or any kind of counter play associated with them, especially with how strong some of them are
Rage are should have been replaced by heat mode system
I mostly agree with you. I remember seeing the heat stuff and not liking the way it looked and now I really dislike it. It's hard to get a rhythm going in the fight when every 2 seconds the camera is zooming in or changing angles and the games pausing over and over. When you're losing it gets even more frustrating to have those frequent pauses. I'd rather them remove heat entirely, but I since I know they won't, I wish they'd remove the pauses and camera stuff. Like, just let the heat stuff happen on it's own without the cinematic flair everytime.
I never liked rage arts before, but I could deal with it in Tekken 7. Now it's too much for me lol I'm not trying to play Fighterz I'm trying to play Tekken.
yes.
right now the game is like actually tekken for 60% of a round then it turns into a party game for the other 40% when people start activating heat/heat burst/rage art on some super tekken bros shit.
Tekken 8 is like sfv where v trigger is insanely powerful and comeback is easy and not exciting to watch. Heat smash animation is quite short and not every round has rage art though, unlike sf6 it's almost guaranteed.
i feel this game would be much better and less toxic if you had to build up heat meter to use it. like landing attacks and the designated heat engager moves give you a big chunk of heat bar at a time
in recent memory and in my opinion DOA6 did it best with cinematic supers. it was just 1 move, usually a punch or kick that did a ton of damage with a close up, slow-mo shot of the person getting hit that lasted for no more than 3 seconds.
i think this take was how i felt more so when the game had just dropped... I've kinda changed on that since then... But for the most part, i agree..between rage and Heat, it's too much easy damage (if you hit). He's probably right, their vision was the new heat system, but they left the old RA system in there which could probably go. I think building up heat, or having only 1 RA per match or having to build RA would be better. But they also just need to adjust the dmg overall..like you can lose half your life after 4 normal hits, then get hit with smash, and it's over.
i dont mind the heat system because it feels a bit like a press and forget kind of mechanic where it gives you more power for a bit amd thats it. gauge management like the drive gauge in sf6 is much more invasive since the game is built around it so you have to learn the ins and outs of what using that gauge and interact with it so much more than heat
Heat burst freeze frame slows down the pace of the game during intense moments and feels so ass. I wish it was just like a normal armor move. Rage damage boost should also be removed since damage is already high enough with unga heat moves and chip. I'm already bored of rage arts, so I hope they make them bad like in T7 (slow down when hit during startup, less range, more punishable).
Long post incoming. Hope someone reads it.
I agree with you Obama. Heat plus Rage is too much as well as some of the other system changes like easier Running moves and Tracking throws(this seriously needs to change).
Looking past Heat obviously needing to be heavily balanced for certain characters, I feel like the game's mechanics encourage a playstyle that equates to "turn my brain off and press win button". I unfortunately don't think Rage Arts are going anywhere, sunk cost fallacy and new players love that type of stuff but heat and the other stuff being rethought could really help the game's long-term health.
My changes would be:
- Rage should be lost when you get back above the threshold for using Rage Art after earning back grey health. Right now, someone can earn back health past the point where they gained rage, land a combo on you and then still use a Rage Art. Keep in mind that while in Rage you get a damage buff on all your attacks. It's ridiculous and feels like an obvious oversight. This would be a simple change and would help with that complaint of watching cinematics for so much of a match/round.
- Make Heat something that happens once or twice a match. You start with it like usual but have to gain it back by attacking an opponent. NO MORE than twice a match per player. Every single round is too much and causes the game to revolve far too heavily around that one mechanic.
- Heat Smashes should only be possible when you have a certain threshold of bar left. For example, you need at least 10 or 20% bar left to do a heat smash. Would help with the constant cinematics in a match complaint. But I wouldn't hold my breath on this one happening. Again, sunk cost fallacy. Namco admitting they made all those cinematics for nothing? Hell nah lol.
- Tracking needs to be toned down for some Smashes and ALL Heat Bursts. As it stands the Heat Burst is an everything button when it should be a "get off me" tool. Make it steppable on a read and reduce the range so they don't cover the entire screen when pressed. It feels horrible when there is one move that covers damn near all options you make as a player when traditionally in Tekken you have multiple options to deal with your opponent's decisions. The funny thing is they made Heat Burst this way because Heat, when used offensively, is SO overwhelming. They knew defenders needing something just as dumb to counter it. Again, I unfortunately don't think they'll ever let go of the screen freeze animation...
- Heat should deplete when you are being combed. The game wants to award the player who earns a hit into heat activation through aggression. This is fine. The game however should not protect that person if they screw up their opportunity for using heat. If you pop heat and then get launched the timer should continue to deplete. Slower than normal, I don't care, but it should definitely deplete if you've gotten launched. This change would force people to be more thoughtful about hey they throw out some of the stupid stuff heat gives to characters AND promote defensive movement because a lot of heat shenanigans can only be reliably punished by making if whiff or stepping it.
- THROWS SHOULD NOT BE TRACKING. In a game where running moves are far easier and the Heat mechanic exists, tracking throws is WAY too much. Opponents sit in your face with plus frames FAR more often in this game than T7 and often the best way to deal with the pressure is to step to whatever weak side their flowchart has. When you add in tracking throws, suddenly stepping itself becomes a mixup on you the defender. "I'm -6 after Drag Running 2, he's right in my face. Okay, I'm gonna step to try and avoid another one." SURPRISE here's a throw mixup that's HARDER to react to since you stepped AND you might have gotten Counter Hit thrown if you pressed a button to early. And now Drag has you on the ground for a free guess on eating Df2 launch if you stand or eating a hatchet if you stay down. It's ridiculous and totally unneeded. Throws are already sufficiently buffed in this game because of how much easier it is to lock someone into place, the addition of CH throws, and the fact that some characters get unbreakable throws in and out of Heat.
Other changes I'd like to see but doubt would happen:
- Reduced plus frames for heat smashes on block.
- Reduced plus frames for Heat Engagers on hit.
- Heat Dash REMAINING +5 to +6 on block everywhere on the stage instead of suddenly becoming a true 50/50 at the wall since where they become +17 like a heat engager.
- Chip Damage happening ONLY when heat is activated. Promotes using heat earlier instead of as just a round ender.
- Get rid of or limit the stage explosions. They feel extremely lame. At least make it so someone can't get a full combo off of them or heavily increase scaling.
This game is really fun, but it's also one of the most frustrating FG I've ever played because, like you said, there is mechanical bloat and heavy imbalance with its systems. I think what I've proposed would greatly normalize the game while still keeping that "Aggressive" identity they want. I feel that right now, the overbearing nature of the mechanics causes players to HAVE to play the game in a certain way which isn't healthy competitively or for spectators.
Removing rage arts from the game would be a dream, but I dont think it'll ever happen lol. Glad to see a video discussing this problem with the game, I think its a valid discussion.
it will never happen, but to me its sooo close to being REALLY good lol
What made Tekken so great compared to other fighters was how simple to understand it was. Each button is a limb. Easy. But it is certainly getting more and more complicated with character buffs (or installs or whatever people call them), rage, heat (and good lord please don't add dlc characters with super meters).
I like the heat system because you get it from the start of each round and it isn't really a resource you have to actively manage, but learning what it does for every character is a bit of a chore.
Also, rage arts are cool and all, but man, I am so sick of sitting through extended super animations in fighting games.
I agree with what you said, but my main problem with heat right now is that the tracking on heat activation needs to go
100%. They just keep adding stuff every new tekken and the mechanics are fighting each other. In their current state Heat maybe should have just replaced the rage arts stuff.
I'm in the minority in that I never hated rage. But damn when they did character reveals for this game I was like these are tooooooo long lol. After 8 months of checking my phone while I'm in a Juri combo into level 3 in sf6 I was sad to see it in tekken as well. I do think heat and rage have one cool mesh, which is that recovering life makes your rage art do less damage, but you get to keep rage even if your life goes above the rage mark through recovery. I think that's neat.
I'd love to see Rage arts be half as long but they spent all that cash on animating them so we're stuck with it probably. Heat is cool to me, but I'd love if they made heat burst side steppable or something. Needs more counterplay. I was worried the heat engager animation would get old but it feels quick enough to me. Also is it just me or was Rage drive way easier to stuff with a button than heat smashes? Nerf that too lol
Honestly, with the pace of new Flag ship fighting games being at least half a decade apart. Adding a bevy of mechanics on top that takes time to level with I find to be a good thing.
Maybe you could do one large patch a year as an alternative. But if you gotta drop something that's gotta last, I'd rather drop too much than too little. Last generation was generally a pretty slow start due to the games launching with very simple mechanics. Id rather not repeat that.
ppl should def have to work for heat... Literally the best indicator of someone who will one & done on a win or RQ on a loss, is the person who starts the round with heat almost immediately!!
I think the heat system is fine but I wouldn’t mind if heat dash or heat smash was taken away. We don’t need both one or the other would be fine. Aside from that, like you said once per match of heat activation wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
I love tekken 8 but a part of me wishes we had a tekken that looks graphically like 8 but no heat and no rage
tekkens whole shtick for me was having no invisible variables or arbitrary meters, even with the exceptions the core of the game tried its best to stay true to the martial arts root and grounded gameplay. and it was still a nuanced game that set trends. now i feel like tekken's the one following established trends, and ones that didn't work well to begin with.
I feel like they could remove the heat activation animation to reduce the time people don't have control of their characters without fundamentally changing the game. The moves still have properties like rage drives but it's not a sudden stop of gameplay 6 times per set, even though it's short it adds up. Then go from there.
I hated rage arts from a casual perspective in 7 and now that i'm in a spot to actually learn 8, Heat mode is _bananas_ on top of Rage
Rage won't go anywhere, but I'd like to see it changed so it can only be activated once per *GAME*.
Rage art and heat together is kinda wild, it should have been one or the other.
I saw some experienced players having issues with Rage on top of Heat, so its fair to say the game is very polarizing to new players as well. I've been playing with my friends daily lately and I just came to the conclusion that I've been doing noticeably better when Im just mashing/pressing shit most the time instead of "solid/fundamentals" plays cause that's what the game rewards. It's great for casuals/spectators for sure, but yeah, I wonder whether this will affect the game's appeal over a longer period of time.
Im not trying to invalidate how you feel in regards to the "i can mash and do better than play solid" comment, because thats literally just how every fighting game works.
If you're a mid level player, you are used to trying to figure out what your oppenant wants to do and having some form of mutual respect. When fighting new players, they are quite literally unpredictable. They have no pattern, they literally have no idea what they're doing, and while you spend precious time trying to abuse that, they're chipping at your life total.
Its a sign you have a lot to improve on offense wise, since there isnt any way you're gonna figure their shit out holding block lol
@@AllstateManlove I don't believe Tekken 8 works like every other fighting game, just like I feel like my offence ain't too bad. I'm gonna sound like Grandpa Obama here but I believe T8 rewards and heavily incentivizes (?) offensive play. If you're standing there blocking all day, the opponent can always pop heat to force his turn back or use some obscure string you've never seen. Unless they're abusing some heavily punishable move like a snake edge and you catch on and launch and unless you have godlike defense and neutral in general, imo it's favored to try and force your turn back at every chance in T8.
Rage is never going away at this point but once a game would be nice.
In general I like the heat system as a concept. Enhancing or altering characters moves as an install is super cool. What I don’t like is heat smash, rages arts and armour moves. even heat engager to some extent (the one button one not the when it comes out of pre existing moves that is cool and well thought out). Panic buttons that steal rounds or reset neutral.
Chip and life recovery in this game seem a bit tacked on as they realised heat smashes did way too much damage for one button.
I do look forward to seeing how it develops though and while I dislike parts of it conceptually I’m having loads of fun with the game.
I wish we had a quick version of rage arts like in old 2d games, and the cinematic version if it means ending the match.
I think it is mostly that, if you played all the other games, this game has nothing for you. Yes, it has rage, heat and movelists, but the tense essence is gone. I don’t blame the team for it, I just think it is the only way to make a new game without, you know, having a tekken 4 situation. On my end, having grown on all the old tekkens if I want to invest more time in a new FG then I would rather play something that does not always pauses for a close-up, that shit just WILL get old regardless of core gameplay.
Anyways, if you still enjoy it, then keep enjoying it; always the most important tenant
I agree. The heat system itself only really benefits certain types of characters. None of which are my mains, so that's rough. Add on the rage system with its scrub mechanics and marketing supers and damn. Still a fun as hell game but it's got a long way to go to be great. My biggest fear is virtua fighter leaks talking about 'modern system mechanics' means learning the wrong things and being more like tekken and thus diluting the core design and identity of the game.
Rage isn't going anywhere they already paid for the animations
We know and that was stated bro
I've just being enjoying the game for what it is even if it fault in some aspects.
it really fun to get you momentum going with heat into a blender, but it sucks when it happens to you.
i feel im so focus on what i can do better rather then how the game can be better and i still get those moments where it just tekken like when i get a perfect sidestep into a whiff punish electric it fun.
but for the most part it the new system doesn't make me mald, i just accept it for what it is, and try to counter play how i can. i don't know what could happen in later seasons of the game anything could happen.
if you guys are hoping xyz will get tone down on the system personality i don't like to put all my hope into something that hasn't happen yet.
I don't play Tekken but I like watching it, but even so I feel you on the cinematics aspect. Tekken 7 didn't really have that problem because you had to pick between Rage Art and Rage Drive, and usually at high level Rage Drives were better. Drives were a canned combo at worst, or a combo extender where the player was still, you know, playing. With nothing else to use Rage on, Rage Arts are much more common, and everyone has to take a 15 second break when they land.
I agree with Majin on this, Heat needs to be changed and I want all smashes to have the same frame data, I'm fed up of blocking their unearned heat engager 50/50 and then blocking a smash and depending on the character it's still their turn. I always fundamentally disagreed with the heat mechanic because I find the system is playing you more than you are playing the game.
Rage Art already bothered me in the way the momentum of the round was totally broken when someone had it. Heat system is another similar layer but that happens anytime during the match. So you can be sure to lose the momentum 2 times during each round, which is kinda annoying because all you do is wait for your opponent's Heat Smash and gauge to end.
I'm a vanilla person. All these fighting games lost the focus on the fighting style to get the focus on mechanics. Imagine a non player watching all that stuff happening.
Tekken was (maybe still is) the most watchable game for these people.
I never been a fan of Street Fighter but this 6 definitely made me step back quickly.
As for GG Strive, for whatever reason i love it, maybe the pace.
Soul Calibur 6 and the rock paper scissor was trash.
I hope i will like Project L but the tag system scares me a bit.
i didn't really try to learn tekken like that until 8 (despite being a competitive 2d player), and having heat + rage art every round def made it feel like i had a chance to play my game every round
after a couple weeks i was like okay i kinda just wanna play normal tekken a little more every round lmao
I agree, middle-aged player that I am. Heat feels like a round-long replacement for Rage Drives, and I have to remind myself that they are plus on whiff-no matter how the animation looks. I could see both systems existing as an option to choose during character select, '90s style: increased damage and an armored finisher when near death, or an armored combination with chip recovery at any time during the round; I wonder whether it started that way. My personal gripes are these, most important first:
1. Fix input processing: an opponent throwing a random punch from full screen should not cause my inputs to drop, especially when we have a good connection without WiFi.
2. Reduce the visual effects of Rage and Heat: when both players are in both Rage and Heat in close proximity, it can be genuinely difficult to see startup frames.
3. Bring Mokujin back!
4. Make it easier to main random select in ranked, including a favorite appearance saved per character such that random selection does not always use the default appearance.
5. Either make the Tekken Force part of Story Mode playable with a stick or provide a different way to unlock Jun and Reina's character episodes.
6. Expand the Arcade Quest mode: what got me hype 20 years after Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's Quest Mode turned out to be a tiny, glorified tutorial.
i miss the feeling of being completely in control of my character
Agreed, rage arts and heat being available every single round turned me off of this game.
I’m back to playing kof and 3s as the game flow feels so much better there
Heat has closed the gap between players in T7 and T8 because of the comeback factor it possesses. Not to say Rage Drives were balanced, but Heat is much more easier to access that anyone can throw out an engager into a 50/50 mix-up, or just Heat Burst to reset/skip neutral.
So when I first saw Heat, I thought of it as like Max Mode from KoFXIV/XV because Geese had Max Mode in Tekken 7 and was cooking with it. I always thought that Harada's vision was to make the base Tekken characters as wild and as 'aggressive' as Geese and Akuma, cause I mostly saw people complain about those characters. Ya know " If everyone is jank, then it's balanced." type of thinking. I do agree Heat needs some tweeks and you gave some good ones, but for me the biggest thing that makes a 3D fighter a 3D fighter is that the rules are loose and you have hella options. It's not a " Do these mechanics work together" type of situation, it's a "What mechanic do I want to use to get me the dub" and that's way easier to understand on a casual standpoint. And you know these FG Devs love their casuals ayyyyy
Their concepts are neat, the execution of them could do with some refinement. I also personally prefer a central system that all systems contribute or pull from like how Drive in SF6 is MOST of your main mechanics in a fight with super bars on the side. Don't think they're gonna throw away heat smashes or rage arts but HOW they are used and how often could get looked at for sure.
I’ve always kind of been in the minority in liking the volume of information you need to digest. These games last 10 years at a time, and that far down the road, I still want to be having new experiences. It feels daunting right now, but if people can manage whole squads full of stats in RPG’s, we can certainly wrap our heads around this stuff at some point. Even if it’s way later. Or if we have players that are dope at A mechanic, and bad at B mechanic. That breeds player expression and style more than ever. I think it’ll be great, over the long term
So i’ve been grinding t8 non stop since launch, hit blue ranks and just been grinding to improve. Games really fun but honestly i feel fatigued after a few matches now.
Matches feel long as hell in this game because the heat and rage systems are so volatile esp against characters with ridiculous health regen on block on their smashes.
Honestly the way heat was executed in this game leaves alot to be desired, the animations are cool but man i can only block so many raven heat transitions on block before i start groaning.
I honestly think that Bandai Namco wouldn't shy away from making big changes if they felt like they were the right ones. Even heat was changed from when it was first introduced, to when it was released (used to have that whole two chain system), and I think they were changes for the better. Hope they can keep improving the game over the years
Rage art plus Heat system kinda feels like if they had put some elements from the V Systems or Focus Systems or some previous games system identity in street fighter 6. Obviously that would have been way worse than what Tekken 8 since SF6 introduced like 4 new mechanics, but once my opponent gets down to rage art health percent, suddenly it feels a lot like I'm playing Tekken 7 again.
I think it's part of why the game has continued to be doing well. There's so much crap going on that the game doesn't seem as figured out as a lot of games are by this point. I was talking to one guy at work who said it seemed kind of boring for being so similar to 7, but then he also mentioned that he doesn't really use the heat system.
Although you're probably right about the cinematics. It's bugged me for a while that in MK you can't lose the super attack unless you land it, so you have to watch it a lot.
I'm on some sad mad shit from T7 where I liked Rage Drives and the Rage damage increase, but hated Rage Arts. Feel similar about in in 8. Heat Burst/Smash just seem way too powerful overall because of how safe they are and how rare it is somebody actually whiffs them because of how far they reach making them even harder to punish for how easy they are to do, and how you don't have to earn them at all. Maybe have your Heat gauge start at 25% and slowly fill as the timer ticks down, filling more quickly when you land hits? I'd suggest making you straight have to choose between using Heat or Rage Art within a given round, but with how most of a character's strong pokes automatically put you in Heat state that would mean nobody would ever be able to 'choose' to do Rage Art.
As for the complaint about too many cinematic moments where nobody is doing anything, definitely true but the usual mudslinging at Tekken from other FGs is that juggles are so long you spend half the match not doing anything anyways, so I guess it fits. kappa
Agreed 100% I'm having lots of fun with T8, but dying in two full combos that don't require nearly as much execution or practice as 2D games = no need for a fully armored super + full heat bar shenanigans. Sadly they'll never remove rage art because casual playere like it, but It'd be very nice if one of the 2 godlike resources would build over time Like a traditional gauge instead of automatically
Ngl as a new player theres so much shit to keep track of the mental stack is lowkey draining. At least in terms of playing AFTER work during the weekdays. I wanna be laid back but Tekken matches are intense as fuck… at least compared to other fighting games i played for me lol im
Personally I am okay with Heat the way it is. I have already adjusted to it. It's Rage Arts. Rage Arts need to be 1 round. And you do not get a Rage Art until the next match. I am kind of getting tired, and I am sure I am going to be called a scrub, out playing my opponent, playing really solid Tekken to be Rage Arted - because I forget about them since I rarely use them not out of principal because for me they are rarely ever in my gameplan. Like my biggest gripe about T8 is I feel like I am being punished for better play and its super frustrating, oh I out pressured you in a game about aggressive playstyle and I out maneuvered- oh your heat smashing and rage arting me. Cool. Like its super frustrating to watch a cinematic and watch your health get deleted for little work. X Ray moves in Mk are 1 round.
Nah rage arts are awful. Don't feel bad
I like the core Tekken gameplay, its what got me playing Tekken 7.
Tekken on its own is a good enough sport to capture the attention of many, the new shit adds more to explain and more to learn for a very uninteresting/frustrating(mid as fuck) mechanic. Whenever me or my opponent are in heat, I'm not excited or anything, I'm kind of just getting through it so we can get back to the game I came for: dancing around and creating whiffs, playing chicken with my opponent at range, and taking turns playing rock,paper, scissors on block. Also healing back health that you rightfully lost without having to risk anything is a flat out mistake that just makes the game more frustrating to play.(while as the healer you don't even register the reward you've received, you feel nothing) I wish they went with a less disruptive mechanic that doesn't drag for so long, I'd be more satisfied if they did something so much simpler - this flow where the game just stops and shifts to something drastically different for such an extended period of time is horseshit, would much prefer a handful(like 1-3) of simple special moves/enhancements that I EARN by playing the game and then spending that resource.(EX)
I've been having A LOT of fun playing Tekken 8, but its not because of the new mechanics, not even close. Removing them outright would not be a mistake in any way shape or form and I would argue that most fans would simply be enjoying themselves more consistently as a player AND as a spectator, however I do appreciate them trying to keep the game fresh.
Preach this ain’t street fighter . Pick a fight genre and stick with it I just don’t like lack of skill or timing involved with the heat mechanic doesn’t feel rewarding . In T7 I enjoyed the risk reward factor of timing your moves on offense or parry duck rage art/ rage dash (blue thing ) if you were put in negative frames it’s partially your fault for not reacting it but you live and learn. I think the game is ridiculous lol . Freakin bananas . One more thing TEKKEN needs to stop cappin hiding trying to pretend this game is easy even removing difficulty settings lol what the cluck lol . Also makes sense with hear mechanic since their brining in a new audience .TEKKEN 9 will be TEKKEN x street fighter x king of fighters x MK at this rate .
i mean, i liked having something that still under my control, even had have both mac n cheese and chinese food mixed. all of that to survive a day.
in the end, we eat some, save them for next breakfast. win-win scenario? i guess, yeah.
The cinematics are a little long, I agree. But I actually am a fan of having a huge hodgepodge of different mechanics. It makes it more interesting than if you just had a handful of things and had to just focus on optimizing them. I mean obviously at some level that happens but the earlier grind is more interesting with the variety. imo
What the Tekken unique mechanics do is reformulate the game for new players. "This is the get off me button", "this is the big damage button", "this is the big damage button but you can only do it when low on life". Add to that the Special Style that clearly defines buttons as "low attack", "armoured attack", "mid combo starter" and "unique attack", and you can see they tried to attach a layer of "easy to understand" controls on top of legacy Tekken controls. All this clutter serves a purpose, and is a compromise.
With this in mind, I can see how this can look visually dense but I don't think it's get adjusted much: the target audience for these tools are newbies. A seasoned player can take a minor inconvenience of seeing a rage art every other round (and there's gonna be fewer of them the higher you climb), while for a newer player they are needed to keep their attention. And the game absolutely needs a constant stream of new players to survive.
Also, how do Rage Arts compare to SF6 level 3 supers? IMO they're only slightly longer, and happen less often in intermediate ranks and higher. Like, a SF6 match is almost guaranteed to have 1-2 level 3 supers while a Tekken 8 match often ends without a single RA.
Rage Art without Rage Drives feels really naked, but I don't know if I want them to introduce them later like they did in 7. The route I'd prefer is for Rage Art to become an alternative to Heat Smash that's only available under 50% HP or something (with different benefits or maybe just being slightly safer on block with more damage on hit). Regardless, game good.
My only complaint is the heat activation being invincible and apparently armored. itd be nice if the heat attack tracking was significantly reduced. also...Why is the "Piano Mix" from TTT2 not in Tekken 8?(it wasnt in 7 either)