I used to work for Liberty Ammunition. Great company. Would you believe the man who invented these bullets used to design and build guitar pickups for Gibson Guitars? His name is PJ, quirky nerdy guy. But a good boss all around
@@jbrown6030 These bullets are very labor intensive to produce. They aren't mass produced on a machine like other bullets. Each and every bullet has to be inserted into a press and stamped into shape by hand. Samples are pulled from each press periodically and placed into a laser measuring device to ensure the diameter is in spec. Once the projectiles are hand stamped they are then sent off to be coupled with cases and coated in nickel. It's quite an operation to produce one of these bullets. Which accounts for the price to be sure. But we all know the juice is worth the squeeze. These rounds are fantastic 👌
I understand the concern, but you gotta think, an average street thug that totes a gun is probably not going to be carrying this stuff. I just paid $20.49 for a box of these rounds, so just over $1 per bang. Methinks most gangbangers are probably just stocking up on standard JHPs or FMJs even just to have a lot more ammo.
@@xringarcher1440 BINGO ! And that was still a cheap price to pay. Retail price is $25/box. Similarly, I doubt most hoods even know 7.62x25 to steal it.
Stick a decent trauma plate (iiia or special threats) in the front and back pouch of your iiia vest. Most vests have pouches to hold 5x8 or 7x10 inch plates. I used Second Chance T-15 5x8" special threat plates. They were 0.100" thick titanium wrapped in kevlar and very light. Rated to stop up to 30 carbine ICW. I just had a level iia vest on patrol which is why I bought enhanced trauma plates.
I bought a box of this in 45 acp and was blown away at how light they were. After watching tests here on TH-cam with it, I was really impressed. I use these and underwood extreme defenders in my carry weapons. We're spoiled with current bullet technology.
All I carry is Civil Defense in my 9mm handgun (Tisas PX9) & I've actually successfully self defended myself with this ammo & all I can say is the threat won't be celebrating any more birthdays 🤷🏾♂️
I have been carrying this stuff since it first came out, over 2 years ago. It just seemed a good idea for a small pocket 9mm that has a 3 inch barrel. and also cut the overall weight by a third, A 17 oz gun now becomes much more pocket friendly with 50 grain bullets that make up for the undersized barrel, with 2000 fps velocity.
I agree, the ATF and this administration are making a big Ta-Do over absolutely nothing. It seems we've gotten the attention of law makers and perhaps we can ultimately stop the ATF from banning M855.
this really begs the question of why didn't 7.62x25 get developed into a specialist SMG/handgun AP bullet. We've seen cartridges like the 5.7 and 4.6 developed and I really think with modern bullets and powders the 7.62x25 could become a strong contender. Either way its a shame its not as popular here in the U.S its such a great round.
I have been keeping two mags for my g22 loaded with liberty. I was skeptical of the light weight of the bullet, but now I have a bit more confidence in it doing what I would need it to do. I may start running this in my shield 9mm now too.
@@Nigriff if you ever need use your weapon in self defense, having a mix of ammo in your magazines has been used as an argument that you are unaware of what kind of ammo you are using and what it’s effects may be. Or that you were intending to use your gun for something further than personal defense Sounds ridiculous I know but it’s true
Armor ratings are highly specific. Any bullet the deviates from those specific performance requirements will likely defeat the armor. Banning every bullet or caliber that can defeat light armor is absolutely silly and would result in most every rifle caliber being banned and many handgun calibers.
The added speed out of the CZ likely led to a accelerated deformation of the 9mm round. Aside from accelerating the normal expansion of the HP, different metals destabilize at different velocities against rigid or hard surfaces. For instance, historical steel shot utterly failed at defeating steel armor once accelerated beyond ~2800fps. This is because the steel shot would actual fracture on impact; to resolve this, softer metal caps were applied to early tank rounds to absorb the shock and transfer it to the sides of the shot, instead of the front, as well as begin the process of penetration. Eventually more stable metals like depleted uranium and tungsten were adopted, due to the limitations of steel. The moral of the story? Speed can kill the ammo too.
I bought some of this ammo at my local hardware store a few weeks back. My brother laughed at the design when I first showed the ammo to him. He's going to be quite surprised when I show him this video! Keep up the good work MAC!
If your goal is to have the most effective defensive load in soft tissue, the Civil Defense probably isn't your best option. The bullets are fast out of the barrel but stop very quickly in soft tissue and only the tiniest of bullet fragments makes it 10" or so into the gel which is shy of what the FBI considers to be optimal performance.
Now it's up to body armor manufacturers to make body armors better and more resistant. I don't think the government should ban this ammo, but body armors need an upgrade.
Exactly. If you wear body armor for protection BE SURE TO WEAR THE APPROPRIATE RATED ARMOR. If this ammo is a concern to you, go to level III or IV. Don't blame the ammo for not buying the right armor.
JCaesar It combines non-Newtonian liquids with a aramid (kevlar) substrated for a lighter weight and semi-flexible armor. I believe the TALOS ("Iron Man") suit utilizes it. Non-Newtonian liquids behave unusually. They will actually harden upon impact but otherwise flow like a liquid.
I'd consider it a personal favor if you tested the new Underwood 9mm +p+ "Xtreme Penetrator" round in this fashion. It's another all copper bullet, and has a strange bullet design that sort of hybridizes it between an FMJ and an HP.
Wow, Nice Vid! The Copper-Bullet with its Shape nearly instantly reminded me of an Shaped/Hollow Charge i.e. integrated in our PzF-3 where the pretty thin Copper-sheet Collides in itself (in that case propelled through the explosive charge) concentrate itself into one small point and pierces through thick Armor. But i still thought that the Shape in this Case would let the Bullet deformate before piercing through... Impressive!
Defense in my 9mm handgun (Tisas PX9) & I've actually successfully self defended myself with this ammo & all I can say is the threat won't be celebrating any more birthdays 🤷🏾♂️
I recently purchased a full set of Body Armor which is to be able to stop 308 rifle round. I did a test similar to yours,first 7.62x25 dented the front plate but did not penetrate. I then tried some 556 Green tip,same result it did not penetrate. I then shot some South African surplus and some black hills. The plate stopped both! One thing to remember this is military spec body armor and weighs close to 70+ pounds. Not something you would want to wear all day. We did wear it all day in the Corp and I was glad we did! Semper Fi brother
Wow, I wear level 2 body armor at work which is a step below the tested body armor. I also have a steel trauma plate in the front panel of mine that would probably stop the round. But it makes up a small area of the overall coverage. Never would have guessed your results, was starting to think there was something wrong with the armor
As I point out in the video, this isn't news. Other tests have shown it easily passes through II body armor. One tester told me it actually passed through (2) II soft panels in their tests.
I wear level IIIA @ work. almost every single agency here in AZ issues IIIA. down here level IIA is considered obsolete. thinking of buying my own AR500 brand vest after seeing this vid!
***** That right there is why I posted the video. Knowledge is power. It's not the bullets fault. If you have the appropriate knowledge you can properly equip yourself with the right hardware. IIA is obsolete.
Lol, I love your expression Holy Cow. I have to tell you. Hollow points doing that to 3A. If anyone would of told me that this was going to be the results. I would of told them that their full of it. I was impressed with the 22 Magnum results that just came out the back of the body armor with the PMR-30. This was completely different.
I used to carry hornady custom 147gr and that just gets heavy but liberty is just so nice to carry because at some point you just forget you're carrying because it's so light
3:15 especially since I'm 99% sure poked that hole with some other somewhat banana shaped bent appendage beforehand and just forgot to use a fresh block.
4:52 The 1st shot pushed and compacted the clay DOWNWARD which didn't allow the 2nd round to push as far IN because it was tightened up by the 1st round.
MAC, I really enjoy your videos. You are extremely knowledgeable and I learn something every time you post a new video. The thing I appreciate the most though is how you interact with your viewers. Most people who post these types of videos hardly ever answer questions in the comments. Thank you and keep the videos and knowledge flowing.
That's what I'm interested in. Because that's what really matters. What the bullet does and also using a smaller gun 3-4inch like most people will have
+TheRealestEver actually no, you're wrong. Velocity is everything to do with it. Why do you think a 5.56 will go through body armor and a 22 lr wont? The rounds are almost the same but the 5.56 is going about 2000 fps faster. Same way with 9mm vs 7.62x39. Both are the same weight bullet but the rifle round is traveling much faster. A solid bullet does nothing if the velocity behind it isn't doing anything. And about the 10mm going through body armor, the rated velocity of the 10mm xtreme penetrators is 1500 fps. A more solid bullet will do more damage after penetrating soft body armor, but it is to be going fast too. Just look at this ammo, this is really frangable ammo and only 55 grains, the bullet design is even a hollow point and it breaks apart horribly on impact. The only reason it penetrates is because it is travelin just under 2000 fps. Speed defeats body armor, not bullet design
+Brandon_ 7.62x39 It's called Velocity & FRICTION. M193 will go thru 3/8" mild steel at 100yds(it basically melts thru),yet folks say it's weak, it is for the purpose intended, make it a SP, put it on flesh, and all HELL breaks loose.
Your all kind of right and kind of wrong. There are more then a few factors that govern penetration and a rounds ability to defeat armor. First off velocity- this is the easiest and cheapest way to beat armor because more powder or more barrel length-- or in this case, less bullet means more velocity. Other factors can effect penetration drastically like bullet shape (hollow vs ball) and bullet composition i.e. harder objects penetrate better. Everyone says velocity is king but in truth velocity is marketing and most consumers are dumb. This is heavily true in the archery world as well. Kinetic energy is one thing but there is alot more to terminal ballistics then just velocity. Wounding mechanics play a role arrows make you bleed more then bullets. But the trauma and sheer energy from a bullet can kill you faster- shot placement is king as shots that destroy the nervous system are by fast the most lethal. A damn pellet gun can kill you with a properly placed shot. I digress- ultimately weather something is combat effective comes down to the situation... Are you shooting at a lightly armored target this round may work for you- are you shooting at he same target behind cover? Things change... Are you shooting through a windshield how about sheet rock? What does the trajectory of the bullet (which in most cases is more important than the power curb) do when faced with different factors such as strong and weak cover. Range and therefore velocity loss. What are the thresholds for proper bullet expansion... Like I said lots of factors.. to only look at velocity is stupid because that's the easiest way for a manufacturer to advise and the cheapest way to build seeing as your literally buying less material for the projectile. Do your research. Personally this bullet is interesting to me because I pack alot of weight out in the woods, and the idea of being able carry more bullets for the same amount of weight is attractive to me. That being said... The same idea got alot of guys killed in Vietnam...
this was a great video, thanks for making it. i think it was a good idea to include the FMJ to compare the others against it. Well spoken, very detailed. but not over the top. thank you
How reliable is this stuff in recoil-operated autoloaders? Even with the 2000 fps muzzle velocity, I would imagine recoil would be pretty light with that 50-grain projectile.
After doing a bit of research on Liberty's Civil Defense Ammo I'm actually wondering how that armor would handle their .45ACP loads. Yes it's a larger diameter round, but it's also travelling at 2,000fps!
Has anyone else noticed that even though in 95% of independent testing videos i have seen the civil defense 9mm defeats level IIIA body armor, but as soon as you go over to the product manufacturer's TH-cam channel (AR500, DMX, Spartan) all of a sudden it doesn't penetrate the armor? Kinda makes me wonder if they're fixing up their test plates in those videos like how fast food companies use make-up artists to make their food look gourmet in their commercials.
That's not a steel plate, and ar500 is ...two different kinds of armour soft armour doesn't stop high speed light weight bullets, neither will it stop bullets made with steel. But with steel plate that's a different story it can stop and deflect almost anything even .50 bmg (Although you'd still prob die just from the impact)
I don't think people are getting it. The ATF isn't going to start banning handgun ammo because of some videos. The point of the video isn't how lethal 9mm is, the point is that police body armor is pretty mundane and there's all sorts of things that will penetrate it, so it's dumb to ban something for that property. And no, the ATF isn't just going to start banning everything that penetrates level IIA, there are so many firearms/ammunition that can penetrate it it would be pointless. The UK allows firearms that can do that.
I just bought 4 boxes of this stuff. I had no idea what it could do. It was the only 9mm ammo available at my local gun shop. Little did I know I was buying "armor piercing" ammo. Should have bought more!
I've carried civil defense for years, I always suspected that it would make it through soft body armor because of the speed but it's nice to have verification. So thank you.
Civil defense ammo is not meant for body armor penetration, it is meant to hit flesh and penetrate while exploding the inside of the target on impact causing a 1 round tap to down an enemy. Still good it went through the armor
I need to get my hands on one. I fired one a few months back but wasn't impressed with the gun itself (Rock Island). It had functional/reliability issues. But the cartridge was impressive to shoot.
*This is a very interesting result. We tested this exact ammo a while back (link below) and found it to perform well, but I would have never guessed it to be AP. What do you all think?* th-cam.com/video/G0EVjsX6G98/w-d-xo.html
Your comment about the Kevlar fibers being clearly visible in the wound area after shoot the CZ Scorpion is a worrying aspect. If someone is shot wearing body armour - these fibers (unless being meticulously cleaned from a wound) could present further vectors for infection post-trauma!
Gun Runnerz I've seen this ran in 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP and all three rounds were insane at how fast they took down feral hogs. The entry wounds were straight up burned like you held a torch to them and the internal hydraulic shock the hog took was the most impressive I've ever seen for a common handgun cartridge. The "star" pattern internally was effective, to say the least. I can only imagine the effectiveness of throwing 3-4 of these rounds down range to eliminate a threat. I carry this round, as does my wife. I think trusting a rounds ability goes hand in hand with the operators ability to send effective firepower down range to stop the threat. I watched your review video, liked that one too! Depending on the season sometimes I run a mixed mag load of JHP and FMJ...normally : 1 FMJ 2 JHP 3 JHP 4 FMJ etc etc
What the hell are you doing shooting skunks! They might be smelly but they're beautiful creatures. Don't shoot possums either, they eat all sorts of things, like snakes. Armadillos are okay though. Blast away at them.
ARMOALL VEST, HAVE PLATES LEVEL lllA AND THEY SHOT A 50CAL DESERT EAGEL INTO IT AND NO OUT THE BACK. SPARTAN, SUCKS. I HAVE OVER 700 ROUNDS OF THIS AMMO.
Hollow points need fluid to make it expand. Body armor have no fluid so hollow points shouldn’t have a much harder time penetrating body armor than ball rounds.
In My state Kerala (South India) at least 5 person dies daily due to traffic accidents... Mostly by neglect of traffic rules & poor infrastructure... Banning anything that moves will not going to help us... Only by providing strict rules & heavy fine for ignorance with good infrastructure will only help this mess... I believe this can be worked on gun laws.... Treat the cause first... Just my humble opinion only (pardon me for grammatical mistakes)
Is it possible to test the projectile velocity before and after the plate ? Could be interesting to see the difference a plate makes when the bullet makes it through.
Some people consider this ammo a “gimmick” - but if so then you would also have to consider most AR-15 5.56/223 ammo - and most rifle ammo in general - a gimmick because they are basically just light projectiles at high velocity is what they do. The typical 5.56 mm nato ammo is 55 grain moving at 3250 fps giving a muzzle energy of about 1270 ft-lbs. This 50 grain 9 mm bullet is leaving the muzzle at 2000 fps with about 450 ft-lbs of energy (about 100 ft-lbs more energy than a typical 115 grain bullet) and it doesn’t know or care that it’s a pistol or a rifle barrel. It’s just designed to deliver that energy to the target upon impact. Aside from some bones humans are basically containers of incompressible fluid filled with electrical wiring (our nerves). So absorbing that energy will create a huge pressure wave that not only destroys tissue but also shocks the nervous system (hydrostatic shock). So the folks here who have actually shot living creatures with these bullets can best attest to their effectiveness. Even then you may not know how it acts on a 250 lb maniac high on PCP! Thanks for the video!
All these type of videos could do, is possibly advertise more restriction ideas. The reason we have this kind of stuff isn't for sporting or hunting purpose. Its about defense against rogue government. Our founding fathers would have already smoked these tyrants and laughed at our current slap on wrist tactics like contacting your reps, they would of just stormed the palace by now.
Oh yes, we must cower and live in fear of our masters. We must fear knowledge. Please, stay dumb and in the dark so our overloads don't come for us. You can live on your knees if you wish, I prefer to have knowledge. As I clearly point out (although some folks apparently can't read) is that the ATF, NIJ and FBI have been aware of this bullets capabilities since 2013. They can't ban it under current law.
Military Arms Channel thanks for calling me dumb, your response to my comment is very childish for a grown man. Grown on the outside not on the inside I guess. Just saying its basicly what happened with the sig brace. Who said anything about cowering and living in fear?
monsterman27 It has nothing to do with what happened with the Sig brace, not even remotely related. The ATF approved the Sig brace, which everyone including them knew was crazy under US law, then they changed their mind. They screwed up and are trying to weasel out of their own mess. This bullet is made from perfectly legal materials, there's nothing the ATF can do about it except lobby Congress to pass a law banning it.
I seriously am a little peeved. I told you the anemic results you got from the last tok. Test were not representative of the normal velocity in think you got 1300 out of pup. I linked many ammo choices and offered to send you some and you blew me off saying it's not nessesary. I feel validated and happy that you did the test and confirmed what we all know 7.62x25 is a devastating round for a hand gun against soft or armored targets. I just wish you would have kept an open mind I wonder how many people shared the same concern as I did on FB.
Criminals are too dumb to understand this kind of ballistics. Even my dad sees 50gr ammo and thinks it's the weakest on the market (in reality it's the most powerful)
Looks impressive in the clay, but I wonder what the real effect on a body would be, since the bullet is apparently just fragments by the time it makes it through the armor.
Many of the comments here don't really surprise me, to the effect that making a video such as this is tantamount to daring the ATF to ban those rounds. In principle, I agree with MAC that the ATF can't change the law, can't simply ban rounds that do not fit the definitions of armor piercing handgun ammunition set forth in the statute. Furthermore, as indicated, the ATF knows these things exist. So I don't fear anything coming from the video itself. On the other hand....... To the extent all that is true, any forthcoming ban on m855 is patently unlawful. I don't think anyone can make a defensible case that the m855 core doesn't contain some lead, thus, it is *not* entirely made of steel. It is not larger than 22 caliber, so the jacket weight rule doesn't apply. Yet, if the ruling is made, manufacturers and retailers won't defy it. With that thought in mind, the ATF could conceivably propose another 'ruling' banning sales of all ammo capable of velocities > 2000fps, accept comments, ignore the outcry, make the ruling, and I dread that, once again, manufacturers would comply. I think people fear going to jail, even if the rulings are destined to get struck down in court. This administration sees threats of prosecution as tools in and of themselves, beyond the enforcement of actual laws on the books.
Ironic.....This test is used for body armor penetration. I purchased these rounds for a comp,lately different ideology. The rounds "appear" by an extensive video search/viewing to fragment completely at the approx 8" Mark with gel & clay tests. Therefore....now retired and traveling, I chose this round in populated areas. Over penetration is a concern hitting innocent bystanders, and this round achieved my needs in internal ballistics. Let's...like most RESPONSABLE Carriers hope I am never in the situation to find out positively or not.
reminds me of the SIG Brace in that the more people wrote in to BATFE for confirmation of application, the more the brace was reviewed leading to a clarification letter of acceptable use ("design"). How many more proofs that the ban is inconsequential will we see before the ATF generates a regulation on velocity or realigns the reg's to fit that condition?
I contacted Liberty to ask what length barrel they use when rating at 2000 fps, a VP said 4 inch. I also asked at what barrel length a IIIA Civil Defense 9mm round would no longer penetrate. He stated their In House Testing indicated these rounds do NOT penetrate IIIA at all. They tested using soft armour, level IIIA. He said he'd seen your video.
5:03 maybe the barrel was too long, and the propellant burn faster and the pressure start to decrease as the gas volumee increase and the friction start to decrease the speed of the bullet at the end of the longest barrel??? I am curious. Chrono test would be good with both barrel length.
Military Arms Channel I know, it's the wrong alloy so they'll try to ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away. Worst case they look like robotic bureaucrats enforcing obsolete laws.
bossmanham Actually, because of the steel core in their view it does. This bullet has none of the prohibited materials used in its construction. It's the reason they couldn't ban the Aquila 9mm IQ ammo from the 90's and it's the reason they've not moved to ban this ammo. It will take an act of congress for them to add copper to the list of propitiated materials. Big difference.
This is my favorite ammo in my 45 handgun and 45 carbine...can you not ruin it please???? Out of a 16 inch barrel the 45acp one would go through level IIIA like butter...Civil Defense in 45acp +P its rated at 1900 FPS and 78 gr...a lot more energy than the 2000 FPS 50gr 9mm. It makes 45 carbine capable of shooting at distance, and its terminal ballistics are very impressive. Please don't get this ammo banned. Of course the government had to settle with liberty for billions of dollars for steeling their patented design on the steel tipped 5.56 bullets that the court now makes the government pay them a royalty and every round they make of that type (I forget the name of it). So I;m betting the Fed's are just itching to go after liberty. Google Liberty Ammunition Lawsuit your find lots of court papers on the web, and some details about the gigantic settlement they got.
With a settlement that big, all the right politicians will have their hands out. They'll want a donation to their future campaign fund. Your ammo of choice should be just fine.
just go rewatch 4:08, this vid came out in 2015 but the ATF knew about it maybe in 2014 *at the latest* (because of how slow govt agencies tend to be you know), so *no MAC wouldn't ruin this ammo even if he wanted to, which we should all know is not the case*
If you're wearing soft concealable armor, most vests have trauma plate pouches and you can stick a special threats plate in them that sits in front of the soft armor.
It's a strange thing with expanding rounds. The faster they are traveling, the less they penetrate soft tissue. And of coarse the slower the deeper they penetrate soft tissue. This must be due to a quicker and fuller expansion as speed increases basically putting the brakes on sooner and harder once inside the body of soft tissue. What is interesting here is that even after passing through the plate it still expands well enough for this phenomenon to hold true.
Thanks for doing this video, I am contemplating on purchasing this ammunition from my local dealer who has received a bunch as well as a ballistics gel block. Thanks again.
you know, if the velocity is, indeed, faster out of the longer barrel (not always the case with 9mm, at least not much, but this might be a different thing with such a different bullet) you might expect it to go less deep. why? because hollow points open up more rapidly, and thus decelerate more rapidly, at higher velocities. this is why finding 147s that don't overpenetrate is kind of difficult. (possible- HSTs seem good... but difficult.)
Someone in a facebook group asked about armor piercing handguns, and I told him about this round. He said he watched some videos on it and is impressed that a 9mm could defeat a level III plate. Pretty sure this is one of the few he watched.
you need to test in with a plate carrier and have it against something because the plate and the carrier work together to stop the bullet, one alone isn't an actual test
I used to work for Liberty Ammunition. Great company. Would you believe the man who invented these bullets used to design and build guitar pickups for Gibson Guitars? His name is PJ, quirky nerdy guy. But a good boss all around
Why has nobody copied this or thought of it sooner? Nobody even bothered making a 50-60 grain
I met the guy who invented it. He gave me his card and offered me a job to work for him.
@@jbrown6030 These bullets are very labor intensive to produce. They aren't mass produced on a machine like other bullets. Each and every bullet has to be inserted into a press and stamped into shape by hand. Samples are pulled from each press periodically and placed into a laser measuring device to ensure the diameter is in spec. Once the projectiles are hand stamped they are then sent off to be coupled with cases and coated in nickel. It's quite an operation to produce one of these bullets. Which accounts for the price to be sure. But we all know the juice is worth the squeeze. These rounds are fantastic 👌
I wish liberty would sell just their projectiles by themselves for reloaders 😔
Gaston Glock made curtain rods
Hats off to Liberty for making this ammo.
Do you like 45 acp
@@gernikajohnson2775 Haven't tried this ammo in 45ACp. Clarify if there is another answer you are looking for?
As a person that sweats under Level IIIA bodyarmor for protection five times a week, all I can say is... Well, shit...
not well shit. fuck that shit. take your chances without armor vs these slugs.
I understand the concern, but you gotta think, an average street thug that totes a gun is probably not going to be carrying this stuff. I just paid $20.49 for a box of these rounds, so just over $1 per bang. Methinks most gangbangers are probably just stocking up on standard JHPs or FMJs even just to have a lot more ammo.
@@xringarcher1440 BINGO ! And that was still a cheap price to pay. Retail price is $25/box.
Similarly, I doubt most hoods even know 7.62x25 to steal it.
xringarcher1440 I’m also pretty sure the average gang banger isn’t carrying something with a 7 inch barrel and a $1000+ price tag
Stick a decent trauma plate (iiia or special threats) in the front and back pouch of your iiia vest. Most vests have pouches to hold 5x8 or 7x10 inch plates.
I used Second Chance T-15 5x8" special threat plates. They were 0.100" thick titanium wrapped in kevlar and very light. Rated to stop up to 30 carbine ICW.
I just had a level iia vest on patrol which is why I bought enhanced trauma plates.
I bought a box of this in 45 acp and was blown away at how light they were. After watching tests here on TH-cam with it, I was really impressed. I use these and underwood extreme defenders in my carry weapons. We're spoiled with current bullet technology.
Me too! I carry these in my Glock 21, makes the gun so light and the recoil is even less, almost like 9mm NATO
All I carry is Civil Defense in my 9mm handgun (Tisas PX9) & I've actually successfully self defended myself with this ammo & all I can say is the threat won't be celebrating any more birthdays 🤷🏾♂️
@@504Treyokay so link the police report. They’re public
I have been carrying this stuff since it first came out, over 2 years ago. It just seemed a good idea for a small pocket 9mm that has a 3 inch barrel. and also cut the overall weight by a third, A 17 oz gun now becomes much more pocket friendly with 50 grain bullets that make up for the undersized barrel, with 2000 fps velocity.
Interesting to hear the police union say that m855 isn't a threat that they would normally see and don't consider it an issue
The last recorded incident of m855 being used in a crime was something like 10 years ago, once. It's definitely not a safety issue ban.
I agree, the ATF and this administration are making a big Ta-Do over absolutely nothing. It seems we've gotten the attention of law makers and perhaps we can ultimately stop the ATF from banning M855.
Hopefully we can possibly get 7N6 back. Not holding my breath but keeping my fingers crossed.
Military Arms Channel Good video and keep up the good work
Military Arms Channel is that civil defense +p ammo?
this really begs the question of why didn't 7.62x25 get developed into a specialist SMG/handgun AP bullet. We've seen cartridges like the 5.7 and 4.6 developed and I really think with modern bullets and powders the 7.62x25 could become a strong contender. Either way its a shame its not as popular here in the U.S its such a great round.
Most likely because it isn't NATO standard.
@@20JK10 i know it isn't. my question was general not in reference to NATO specifically
It was almost 70 years ago, just for the other side.
@@ABC21129 the non-NATO thing is the answer tho. Soviets went to carbines rather quickly rather than smgs as much
7.62x25 is mild steel core… 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R has steel core… I use both.
It would be interesting to run it through a 3" barrel and check the velocity and performance.
Ill let ya know out my Hellcat.... Lol
@@miztrusa how'd it go?
@@airpaintpellet zero issues but now i gotta buy more.... 😂😁
@@miztrusa they went through?
@@airpaintpellet n why wouldn't they?
Surprisingly there are still many youtubers that are calling this Liberty Civil Defense rounds a gimmick round. How wrong they are are!
I have been keeping two mags for my g22 loaded with liberty. I was skeptical of the light weight of the bullet, but now I have a bit more confidence in it doing what I would need it to do. I may start running this in my shield 9mm now too.
I was just thinking that I need this in my Shield (my edc).
You could stagger ammo just in case
@@Nigriff if you ever need use your weapon in self defense, having a mix of ammo in your magazines has been used as an argument that you are unaware of what kind of ammo you are using and what it’s effects may be. Or that you were intending to use your gun for something further than personal defense Sounds ridiculous I know but it’s true
@@Nigriff not to mention all the malfunctions that often come with using different ammo in different grains in the same magazine
Bullets pierce things. Lets just all agree that bullets can go through stuff and not ban anything :) (edit: holy crap, first! lol)
Armor ratings are highly specific. Any bullet the deviates from those specific performance requirements will likely defeat the armor. Banning every bullet or caliber that can defeat light armor is absolutely silly and would result in most every rifle caliber being banned and many handgun calibers.
Military Arms Channel
Water can leak around the body armor.
ban the water i say.
Our agents must have a exclusiveness for being dry.
Military Arms Channel I doubt the BATFE would lose much sleep if they could get every rifle caliber and most handgun calibers banned.
I see You have an illegal water cup on Your table. It would be sad if someone would ban it. And the table.
Military Arms Channel Can you look around for some .22 ammo that can pen class 2a body armor?
I tested it on 3a & it didn't make it through. I guess the spartan armor isn't that good
It's always like getting a gift every time I see an upload from MAC! Keep it going!
Glad you enjoy them. :)
The added speed out of the CZ likely led to a accelerated deformation of the 9mm round. Aside from accelerating the normal expansion of the HP, different metals destabilize at different velocities against rigid or hard surfaces. For instance, historical steel shot utterly failed at defeating steel armor once accelerated beyond ~2800fps. This is because the steel shot would actual fracture on impact; to resolve this, softer metal caps were applied to early tank rounds to absorb the shock and transfer it to the sides of the shot, instead of the front, as well as begin the process of penetration. Eventually more stable metals like depleted uranium and tungsten were adopted, due to the limitations of steel. The moral of the story? Speed can kill the ammo too.
I have found your series on body armor very interesting. Great work. Keep it coming.
Thanks man.
Whoa! Tim actually responded to my comment! I'm....I'm speechless! Oh god, I'm such a big fan!
Just bought two boxes! Better get it now before it's banned.
I bought some of this ammo at my local hardware store a few weeks back. My brother laughed at the design when I first showed the ammo to him. He's going to be quite surprised when I show him this video! Keep up the good work MAC!
If your goal is to have the most effective defensive load in soft tissue, the Civil Defense probably isn't your best option. The bullets are fast out of the barrel but stop very quickly in soft tissue and only the tiniest of bullet fragments makes it 10" or so into the gel which is shy of what the FBI considers to be optimal performance.
Military Arms Channel I had that question on my mind. Thanks for the information, I'll make use of it!
Now it's up to body armor manufacturers to make body armors better and more resistant. I don't think the government should ban this ammo, but body armors need an upgrade.
Exactly. If you wear body armor for protection BE SURE TO WEAR THE APPROPRIATE RATED ARMOR. If this ammo is a concern to you, go to level III or IV. Don't blame the ammo for not buying the right armor.
Yeah, perhaps they should stop focusing on banning ammo and focus on improving armor. Just saying.
There are things in the works, liquid armor comes to mind, but DC is too busy looking for ways to ban us from buying any armor.
The hell is liquid armor? lol
JCaesar
It combines non-Newtonian liquids with a aramid (kevlar) substrated for a lighter weight and semi-flexible armor. I believe the TALOS ("Iron Man") suit utilizes it.
Non-Newtonian liquids behave unusually. They will actually harden upon impact but otherwise flow like a liquid.
I would have liked to have seen this test also with a 3" or like my Sig P290RS 2.9" barrel. Awesome results you've shown.
holy shit, i carry these and wow, looking at them you would never think they would go through
I'd consider it a personal favor if you tested the new Underwood 9mm +p+ "Xtreme Penetrator" round in this fashion. It's another all copper bullet, and has a strange bullet design that sort of hybridizes it between an FMJ and an HP.
Wow, Nice Vid! The Copper-Bullet with its Shape nearly instantly reminded me of an Shaped/Hollow Charge i.e. integrated in our PzF-3 where the pretty thin Copper-sheet Collides in itself (in that case propelled through the explosive charge) concentrate itself into one small point and pierces through thick Armor. But i still thought that the Shape in this Case would let the Bullet deformate before piercing through... Impressive!
PLEEEEASSSE do this same test with the 45ACP +P 78gr/1900fps version!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Imagine it loaded on a 460 rowland case
Impressive to say the least! I know what I'm going to begin carrying in my 9mm. Thank you.
Defense in my 9mm handgun (Tisas PX9) & I've actually successfully self defended myself with this ammo & all I can say is the threat won't be celebrating any more birthdays 🤷🏾♂️
I recently purchased a full set of Body Armor which is to be able to stop 308 rifle round. I did a test similar to yours,first 7.62x25 dented the front plate but did not penetrate. I then tried some 556 Green tip,same result it did not penetrate. I then shot some South African surplus and some black hills. The plate stopped both! One thing to remember this is military spec body armor and weighs close to 70+ pounds. Not something you would want to wear all day. We did wear it all day in the Corp and I was glad we did!
Semper Fi brother
Try 556 55gr FMJ. It should go through. The green tips are too slow to penetrate.
Wow, I wear level 2 body armor at work which is a step below the tested body armor. I also have a steel trauma plate in the front panel of mine that would probably stop the round. But it makes up a small area of the overall coverage. Never would have guessed your results, was starting to think there was something wrong with the armor
As I point out in the video, this isn't news. Other tests have shown it easily passes through II body armor. One tester told me it actually passed through (2) II soft panels in their tests.
Military Arms Channel Is there a difference between IIIA steel plate and what you were shooting at?
john plewa Yes, steel is much harder to penetrate.
I wear level IIIA @ work. almost every single agency here in AZ issues IIIA. down here level IIA is considered obsolete. thinking of buying my own AR500 brand vest after seeing this vid!
***** That right there is why I posted the video. Knowledge is power. It's not the bullets fault. If you have the appropriate knowledge you can properly equip yourself with the right hardware. IIA is obsolete.
This ammo is awesome. I bought 200 rounds during the ammo scare in 2013. Expensive to shoot but fun.
Lol, I love your expression Holy Cow.
I have to tell you. Hollow points doing that to 3A. If anyone would of told me that this was going to be the results. I would of told them that their full of it. I was impressed with the 22 Magnum results that just came out the back of the body armor with the PMR-30. This was completely different.
Finally, some good surplus 7.62x25mm tested against the plate. Awesome video and results Mac, thanks for the work you put into it.
Thanks man.
Negative 2A is lower than level 2. Then 3A followed by level 3 followed by level 4.
Yeah, it's a very counterintuitive system.
love to see this repeated with modern 3+ - as well as with 10mm rounds from liberty and the screwdriver rounds.
Hands down the hardest intro music eva! I crank it every time lol 😂
I used to carry hornady custom 147gr and that just gets heavy but liberty is just so nice to carry because at some point you just forget you're carrying because it's so light
Combine with the Magpul Glock mags which are themselves very light, and your sidearm ammo weight goes down qualitatively.
good ammo for our terminator future. should really trash them robots good :)
That's what I was thinking!
Hell yeah! Imagine 10 mill and 357 mag!
The first impact most likely compacted the clay into a much denser medium which is probably why the 2nd round failed to penetrate as deeply.
would like to a gel block behind that body armor.
3:15 especially since I'm 99% sure poked that hole with some other somewhat banana shaped bent appendage beforehand and just forgot to use a fresh block.
4:52
The 1st shot pushed and compacted the clay DOWNWARD which didn't allow the 2nd round to push as far IN because it was tightened up by the 1st round.
this is a way better version of "Will it Blend"
"Will it Pen"
MAC, I really enjoy your videos. You are extremely knowledgeable and I learn something every time you post a new video. The thing I appreciate the most though is how you interact with your viewers. Most people who post these types of videos hardly ever answer questions in the comments. Thank you and keep the videos and knowledge flowing.
Thanks for the comment and for taking the time to watch the video.
Have you considered running a ballistic gel test to see the penetration these rounds achieve after defeating the armor?
That's what I'm interested in. Because that's what really matters. What the bullet does and also using a smaller gun 3-4inch like most people will have
Thank you for using a ball round for comparison. It helps give a full understanding of the power of the other rounds.
I would love to see you test the Lehigh extreme penetrator against these plates.
No penetration because velocity defeats body armor, not bullet design.
+Brandon_ 7.62x39 not always the case. I have seen the 10mm Lehigh defeat soft armor. Velocity is only part of the equation.
+TheRealestEver actually no, you're wrong. Velocity is everything to do with it. Why do you think a 5.56 will go through body armor and a 22 lr wont? The rounds are almost the same but the 5.56 is going about 2000 fps faster. Same way with 9mm vs 7.62x39. Both are the same weight bullet but the rifle round is traveling much faster. A solid bullet does nothing if the velocity behind it isn't doing anything.
And about the 10mm going through body armor, the rated velocity of the 10mm xtreme penetrators is 1500 fps. A more solid bullet will do more damage after penetrating soft body armor, but it is to be going fast too. Just look at this ammo, this is really frangable ammo and only 55 grains, the bullet design is even a hollow point and it breaks apart horribly on impact. The only reason it penetrates is because it is travelin just under 2000 fps. Speed defeats body armor, not bullet design
+Brandon_ 7.62x39
It's called Velocity & FRICTION.
M193 will go thru 3/8" mild steel at 100yds(it basically melts thru),yet folks say it's weak, it is for the purpose intended, make it a SP, put it on flesh, and all HELL breaks loose.
Your all kind of right and kind of wrong. There are more then a few factors that govern penetration and a rounds ability to defeat armor. First off velocity- this is the easiest and cheapest way to beat armor because more powder or more barrel length-- or in this case, less bullet means more velocity. Other factors can effect penetration drastically like bullet shape (hollow vs ball) and bullet composition i.e. harder objects penetrate better. Everyone says velocity is king but in truth velocity is marketing and most consumers are dumb. This is heavily true in the archery world as well. Kinetic energy is one thing but there is alot more to terminal ballistics then just velocity. Wounding mechanics play a role arrows make you bleed more then bullets. But the trauma and sheer energy from a bullet can kill you faster- shot placement is king as shots that destroy the nervous system are by fast the most lethal. A damn pellet gun can kill you with a properly placed shot.
I digress- ultimately weather something is combat effective comes down to the situation... Are you shooting at a lightly armored target this round may work for you- are you shooting at he same target behind cover? Things change... Are you shooting through a windshield how about sheet rock? What does the trajectory of the bullet (which in most cases is more important than the power curb) do when faced with different factors such as strong and weak cover. Range and therefore velocity loss. What are the thresholds for proper bullet expansion... Like I said lots of factors.. to only look at velocity is stupid because that's the easiest way for a manufacturer to advise and the cheapest way to build seeing as your literally buying less material for the projectile.
Do your research. Personally this bullet is interesting to me because I pack alot of weight out in the woods, and the idea of being able carry more bullets for the same amount of weight is attractive to me. That being said... The same idea got alot of guys killed in Vietnam...
I didn’t know any LE uses 2a. I’ve been issued 3a, and always thought that was standard.
2:47 "flinches"
The second one also made me flinched. lol
this was a great video, thanks for making it. i think it was a good idea to include the FMJ to compare the others against it. Well spoken, very detailed. but not over the top. thank you
I would really love to see these two calibers tested against IIIA steel.
How reliable is this stuff in recoil-operated autoloaders? Even with the 2000 fps muzzle velocity, I would imagine recoil would be pretty light with that 50-grain projectile.
After doing a bit of research on Liberty's Civil Defense Ammo I'm actually wondering how that armor would handle their .45ACP loads. Yes it's a larger diameter round, but it's also travelling at 2,000fps!
I know the 10mm kicks body armors ass.
I've really been enjoying these videos lately great job MAC keep 'em coming!!
Military Arms Channel
Please please test underwood's load of lehigh defense's xtreme penetrator, in the +p, and +P+ against body armor
yes
Tyler Ewing i would love to see that test id even supply the ammo for it.
Already tested, doesn't penetrate but it does leave a good size dent
Reminds me of the old PMC Ultramag bronze ammo. Light, hard, fast. I carried it the early 90s in a stainless Rossi model 68 .38 Special.
They gonna ban Sonic for going too fast.
Sonic is armor pearcing :
+swirekster
What is Sonic?, never heard of it.
+Don Don
LOL, nothing quiet about Sub Sonic,just used with CANS,is the main reason for it.
Has anyone else noticed that even though in 95% of independent testing videos i have seen the civil defense 9mm defeats level IIIA body armor, but as soon as you go over to the product manufacturer's TH-cam channel (AR500, DMX, Spartan) all of a sudden it doesn't penetrate the armor? Kinda makes me wonder if they're fixing up their test plates in those videos like how fast food companies use make-up artists to make their food look gourmet in their commercials.
That's not a steel plate, and ar500 is ...two different kinds of armour soft armour doesn't stop high speed light weight bullets, neither will it stop bullets made with steel. But with steel plate that's a different story it can stop and deflect almost anything even .50 bmg (Although you'd still prob die just from the impact)
I don't think people are getting it. The ATF isn't going to start banning handgun ammo because of some videos. The point of the video isn't how lethal 9mm is, the point is that police body armor is pretty mundane and there's all sorts of things that will penetrate it, so it's dumb to ban something for that property.
And no, the ATF isn't just going to start banning everything that penetrates level IIA, there are so many firearms/ammunition that can penetrate it it would be pointless. The UK allows firearms that can do that.
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I wish more people thought as clearly as you do.
I just bought 4 boxes of this stuff.
I had no idea what it could do.
It was the only 9mm ammo available at my local gun shop.
Little did I know I was buying "armor piercing" ammo.
Should have bought more!
Buying it. Another reason the 9x19 is better then .45, and especially better than .40 Setback & Wesson.
9mm is a badass round. I love it. I'm getting one for my birthday very soon here. :)
FYI Liberty also makes this round in 40cal. +& 45acp at the same velocity with the same devastating results!🇺🇸
The .40 civil defense is much more powerful than this.
I've carried civil defense for years, I always suspected that it would make it through soft body armor because of the speed but it's nice to have verification. So thank you.
Civil defense ammo is not meant for body armor penetration, it is meant to hit flesh and penetrate while exploding the inside of the target on impact causing a 1 round tap to down an enemy. Still good it went through the armor
What's the best 9mm commercially available for going through iiia?
You can tell that this guy is visibly blown away with the performance of this round…
I would really like to see the same test with .22 TCM. That round is screaming out of a 1911 style handgun.
I need to get my hands on one. I fired one a few months back but wasn't impressed with the gun itself (Rock Island). It had functional/reliability issues. But the cartridge was impressive to shoot.
Military Arms Channel why no one ever do a good review on the xdm
Woooooow, was not expecting that from the 9. As for the 7.62, holy fuck, I knew it was a mean round, but that was honestly terrifying.
*This is a very interesting result. We tested this exact ammo a while back (link below) and found it to perform well, but I would have never guessed it to be AP. What do you all think?* th-cam.com/video/G0EVjsX6G98/w-d-xo.html
Time to up armor to level IV body armor plates if you haven't already.
Your comment about the Kevlar fibers being clearly visible in the wound area after shoot the CZ Scorpion is a worrying aspect. If someone is shot wearing body armour - these fibers (unless being meticulously cleaned from a wound) could present further vectors for infection post-trauma!
Gun Runnerz I've seen this ran in 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP and all three rounds were insane at how fast they took down feral hogs. The entry wounds were straight up burned like you held a torch to them and the internal hydraulic shock the hog took was the most impressive I've ever seen for a common handgun cartridge. The "star" pattern internally was effective, to say the least. I can only imagine the effectiveness of throwing 3-4 of these rounds down range to eliminate a threat.
I carry this round, as does my wife. I think trusting a rounds ability goes hand in hand with the operators ability to send effective firepower down range to stop the threat. I watched your review video, liked that one too! Depending on the season sometimes I run a mixed mag load of JHP and FMJ...normally :
1 FMJ
2 JHP
3 JHP
4 FMJ
etc etc
WOW. I saw Liberty at Sportsmans and wondered what it is. Gotta go get some tomorrow. Thanks, real good video.
hmm where are all the .45 fanboys now :)
"9mm is a _____ round blah blah blah"
Ouch time to look into dragon skin body armor.
This round is terrible for self defense, and Dragon-Skin is worse.
Thank you! Would you please consider repeating the test with ballistic gel behind the IIIa body armor?
When they ban 7.62x25mm... its your fault!
lol Awesome video!
I've shot skunks and a rattlesnake with these rounds and they have a pretty nasty effect :-/
What the hell are you doing shooting skunks! They might be smelly but they're beautiful creatures.
Don't shoot possums either, they eat all sorts of things, like snakes.
Armadillos are okay though. Blast away at them.
This is the ammo loaded in my SW compact 2.0 as we speak.
The MK25 is nice :)
Thanks man, I do like it.
ARMOALL VEST, HAVE PLATES LEVEL lllA AND THEY SHOT A 50CAL DESERT EAGEL INTO IT AND NO OUT THE BACK. SPARTAN, SUCKS. I HAVE OVER 700 ROUNDS OF THIS AMMO.
@@acedragon6592 right around 400 here, building though..aint cheap.
Hollow points need fluid to make it expand. Body armor have no fluid so hollow points shouldn’t have a much harder time penetrating body armor than ball rounds.
In My state Kerala (South India) at least 5 person dies daily due to traffic accidents... Mostly by neglect of traffic rules & poor infrastructure... Banning anything that moves will not going to help us... Only by providing strict rules & heavy fine for ignorance with good infrastructure will only help this mess... I believe this can be worked on gun laws.... Treat the cause first... Just my humble opinion only (pardon me for grammatical mistakes)
😁എവിടെയാ ചേട്ടന്റെ വീട്...
Is it possible to test the projectile velocity before and after the plate ? Could be interesting to see the difference a plate makes when the bullet makes it through.
you gust made the people that where that armor 💩 there pants
Oh crap!!!
Definitely worried...
Some people consider this ammo a “gimmick” - but if so then you would also have to consider most AR-15 5.56/223 ammo - and most rifle ammo in general - a gimmick because they are basically just light projectiles at high velocity is what they do. The typical 5.56 mm nato ammo is 55 grain moving at 3250 fps giving a muzzle energy of about 1270 ft-lbs. This 50 grain 9 mm bullet is leaving the muzzle at 2000 fps with about 450 ft-lbs of energy (about 100 ft-lbs more energy than a typical 115 grain bullet) and it doesn’t know or care that it’s a pistol or a rifle barrel. It’s just designed to deliver that energy to the target upon impact. Aside from some bones humans are basically containers of incompressible fluid filled with electrical wiring (our nerves). So absorbing that energy will create a huge pressure wave that not only destroys tissue but also shocks the nervous system (hydrostatic shock). So the folks here who have actually shot living creatures with these bullets can best attest to their effectiveness. Even then you may not know how it acts on a 250 lb maniac high on PCP! Thanks for the video!
All these type of videos could do, is possibly advertise more restriction ideas. The reason we have this kind of stuff isn't for sporting or hunting purpose. Its about defense against rogue government. Our founding fathers would have already smoked these tyrants and laughed at our current slap on wrist tactics like contacting your reps, they would of just stormed the palace by now.
Oh yes, we must cower and live in fear of our masters. We must fear knowledge. Please, stay dumb and in the dark so our overloads don't come for us. You can live on your knees if you wish, I prefer to have knowledge. As I clearly point out (although some folks apparently can't read) is that the ATF, NIJ and FBI have been aware of this bullets capabilities since 2013. They can't ban it under current law.
Military Arms Channel thanks for calling me dumb, your response to my comment is very childish for a grown man. Grown on the outside not on the inside I guess. Just saying its basicly what happened with the sig brace. Who said anything about cowering and living in fear?
monsterman27 You did when u basically said he shouldn't make these video's because they could get idea's to ban this.
monsterman27 It has nothing to do with what happened with the Sig brace, not even remotely related. The ATF approved the Sig brace, which everyone including them knew was crazy under US law, then they changed their mind. They screwed up and are trying to weasel out of their own mess. This bullet is made from perfectly legal materials, there's nothing the ATF can do about it except lobby Congress to pass a law banning it.
It screwed up there is even a ATF.
I seriously am a little peeved. I told you the anemic results you got from the last tok. Test were not representative of the normal velocity in think you got 1300 out of pup. I linked many ammo choices and offered to send you some and you blew me off saying it's not nessesary. I feel validated and happy that you did the test and confirmed what we all know 7.62x25 is a devastating round for a hand gun against soft or armored targets. I just wish you would have kept an open mind I wonder how many people shared the same concern as I did on FB.
And cops everywhere just switched to steel plates.
Criminals are too dumb to understand this kind of ballistics. Even my dad sees 50gr ammo and thinks it's the weakest on the market (in reality it's the most powerful)
Looks impressive in the clay, but I wonder what the real effect on a body would be, since the bullet is apparently just fragments by the time it makes it through the armor.
Many of the comments here don't really surprise me, to the effect that making a video such as this is tantamount to daring the ATF to ban those rounds. In principle, I agree with MAC that the ATF can't change the law, can't simply ban rounds that do not fit the definitions of armor piercing handgun ammunition set forth in the statute. Furthermore, as indicated, the ATF knows these things exist. So I don't fear anything coming from the video itself.
On the other hand....... To the extent all that is true, any forthcoming ban on m855 is patently unlawful. I don't think anyone can make a defensible case that the m855 core doesn't contain some lead, thus, it is *not* entirely made of steel. It is not larger than 22 caliber, so the jacket weight rule doesn't apply. Yet, if the ruling is made, manufacturers and retailers won't defy it.
With that thought in mind, the ATF could conceivably propose another 'ruling' banning sales of all ammo capable of velocities > 2000fps, accept comments, ignore the outcry, make the ruling, and I dread that, once again, manufacturers would comply.
I think people fear going to jail, even if the rulings are destined to get struck down in court. This administration sees threats of prosecution as tools in and of themselves, beyond the enforcement of actual laws on the books.
Ironic.....This test is used for body armor penetration. I purchased these rounds for a comp,lately different ideology. The rounds "appear" by an extensive video search/viewing to fragment completely at the approx 8" Mark with gel & clay tests. Therefore....now retired and traveling, I chose this round in populated areas. Over penetration is a concern hitting innocent bystanders, and this round achieved my needs in internal ballistics. Let's...like most RESPONSABLE Carriers hope I am never in the situation to find out positively or not.
i would be interested in seeing this test done with the 45 ACP liberty ammo
Guess what I'm buying
I want to see that 7.62 on a fresh plate and fresh clay, see what it does dead center. That was wild! Thanks Tim! This is a great video.
treag91 it's compressed soft armor, it's not like a ceramic plate
After seeing this video i just ordered some!
reminds me of the SIG Brace in that the more people wrote in to BATFE for confirmation of application, the more the brace was reviewed leading to a clarification letter of acceptable use ("design"). How many more proofs that the ban is inconsequential will we see before the ATF generates a regulation on velocity or realigns the reg's to fit that condition?
Imagine that out of an Kel-Tec SUB 2000...
I contacted Liberty to ask what length barrel they use when rating at 2000 fps, a VP said 4 inch. I also asked at what barrel length a IIIA Civil Defense 9mm round would no longer penetrate. He stated their In House Testing indicated these rounds do NOT penetrate IIIA at all. They tested using soft armour, level IIIA. He said he'd seen your video.
Thank you the video!!!!! GOD bless and keep you and JESUS loves you!!!!!
5:03 maybe the barrel was too long, and the propellant burn faster and the pressure start to decrease as the gas volumee increase and the friction start to decrease the speed of the bullet at the end of the longest barrel??? I am curious. Chrono test would be good with both barrel length.
I think you just became Liberty's least favorite person ever. You just got their ammo banned.
I'm not complaining, I'm hoping for any number of court challenges for all kinds of existing stupid laws and this could maybe turn into one.
I doubt that. The ammo doesn't even come close to meeting the requirements for AP under the GCA of 68.
Military Arms Channel I know, it's the wrong alloy so they'll try to ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away. Worst case they look like robotic bureaucrats enforcing obsolete laws.
Military Arms Channel Neither does the M855.
bossmanham Actually, because of the steel core in their view it does. This bullet has none of the prohibited materials used in its construction. It's the reason they couldn't ban the Aquila 9mm IQ ammo from the 90's and it's the reason they've not moved to ban this ammo. It will take an act of congress for them to add copper to the list of propitiated materials. Big difference.
This is my favorite ammo in my 45 handgun and 45 carbine...can you not ruin it please???? Out of a 16 inch barrel the 45acp one would go through level IIIA like butter...Civil Defense in 45acp +P its rated at 1900 FPS and 78 gr...a lot more energy than the 2000 FPS 50gr 9mm. It makes 45 carbine capable of shooting at distance, and its terminal ballistics are very impressive. Please don't get this ammo banned.
Of course the government had to settle with liberty for billions of dollars for steeling their patented design on the steel tipped 5.56 bullets that the court now makes the government pay them a royalty and every round they make of that type (I forget the name of it). So I;m betting the Fed's are just itching to go after liberty.
Google Liberty Ammunition Lawsuit your find lots of court papers on the web, and some details about the gigantic settlement they got.
With a settlement that big, all the right politicians will have their hands out. They'll want a donation to their future campaign fund. Your ammo of choice should be just fine.
so what? same result.
just go rewatch 4:08, this vid came out in 2015 but the ATF knew about it maybe in 2014 *at the latest* (because of how slow govt agencies tend to be you know), so *no MAC wouldn't ruin this ammo even if he wanted to, which we should all know is not the case*
If you're wearing soft concealable armor, most vests have trauma plate pouches and you can stick a special threats plate in them that sits in front of the soft armor.
Wow!!!! I am totally shocked at the results!!!!! Great video.
The main thing I learned from this was... I need thicker plates.. Very good video, great points.. WOW.
i'm now thoroughly impressed with the tokorev. i'll be saving up for one at my local gun suppler, classic firearms.
It's a strange thing with expanding rounds. The faster they are traveling, the less they penetrate soft tissue. And of coarse the slower the deeper they penetrate soft tissue. This must be due to a quicker and fuller expansion as speed increases basically putting the brakes on sooner and harder once inside the body of soft tissue. What is interesting here is that even after passing through the plate it still expands well enough for this phenomenon to hold true.
Thanks for doing this video, I am contemplating on purchasing this ammunition from my local dealer who has received a bunch as well as a ballistics gel block. Thanks again.
you know, if the velocity is, indeed, faster out of the longer barrel (not always the case with 9mm, at least not much, but this might be a different thing with such a different bullet) you might expect it to go less deep. why? because hollow points open up more rapidly, and thus decelerate more rapidly, at higher velocities.
this is why finding 147s that don't overpenetrate is kind of difficult. (possible- HSTs seem good... but difficult.)
Impressive! I enjoyed you unbiased approach in testing this particular round.
Someone in a facebook group asked about armor piercing handguns, and I told him about this round. He said he watched some videos on it and is impressed that a 9mm could defeat a level III plate. Pretty sure this is one of the few he watched.
you need to test in with a plate carrier and have it against something because the plate and the carrier work together to stop the bullet, one alone isn't an actual test
Great demonstration, if possible could you perform the test with a 3.5ish inch barreled gun, ie CZ75 P01?