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Secondary Ignition Waveforms (common faults)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 เม.ย. 2012
- In this video I will cover secondary ignition misfire diagnosis using a lab scope.
The following waveforms will be shown:
1. A no fuel misfire
2. An open plug or wire
3. A shorted plug or wire
4. A coil output test
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 1 pages 13-15
Playlist
- (Chapter 1) Misfire ID, Compression Tests, Vacuum Leaks, Fuel Trim, Head Gasket, Restricted Exhaust, Low Power, DMM
• (Chapter 1) Misfire ID...
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- Ignition testing with a scope (Secondary Waveforms) - open plug wire • Ignition testing with ...
- What does an open plug wire look like on a lab scope (uScope)
• What does an open plug...
- Misfire Case Study (1999 Honda Accord)
• Misfire Case Study (19...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdan... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.
Eleven and a half minutes of pure gold.
Thanks man
I have told you this before, but it bears repeating. Your videos are a great source of information and help. I am a professional technician, have been in an out of the industry since 1992. I am ASE Master and L1 certified. I have 3 years of tech school (TCJC in Ft Worth, TX and NCDA apprenticeship program in the mid 90's) I tell you all that to tell you I learn something from each and every video of yours I watch. Thank you for taking the time and effort to post these videos.
Paul - your explanations are the best and clearest i've ever heard, by a long shot. You are a gifted teacher. I am also a tech and a shop owner, and have searched for years for every scrap of information on solving drivability issues using the data that is readily available in the scanner and the scope. Your videos are so head and shoulders above everything else i've heard or read (even compared to iATN), I felt compelled to let you know. You are helping a lot of techs out here.
No, thank you Paul for all the work you put into these videos. I hope your students appreciate the knowledge you are willing to pass down to them. When they do well in this field, they will have no one to credit but you.
If one stone is left untouched, I can't sleep at night. That is how passionate I am about this field.
Thanks again
That takes me back. Way back. Great video, haven't seen a Sun scope in about 20 years but it was great back in the day. I wish I had instructors like you
ThaT's a good example of 1 I don'T Think you would see on a secondary igniTion waveform.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your comment. Especially given your background and experience. I need to hear comments like this. They help me keep my focus and ignore all of the naysayers.
Im testing for my last 3 categories to get master certificated tomorrow. This is one of the things I got wrong last time. Thanks for the video.
Good providence my friend
I absolutely love this video. Simply put, no nonsense approach to secondary ignition concepts. A must watch video for any tech.
No problem! Thanks for watching and for the comment
Thanks man! Its been pretty rough over at ETCG. Although I think the positive comments out weigh the negatives.
No problem bro. I had the primary part of this video done but I didn't like the way it turned out. I have been meaning to do it again but have just been too busy. When we get to ignition systems in class (in a couple of weeks) I will make an attempt to re-shoot the primary circuit tests. Thanks!
Also check out my "Injector Balance Testing" video.
To answer your last question, the problem cylinder with the bad injector will not flow the same amount of fuel even though the pulse width is the same for all the cylinders. So it doesn't matter how much the ECU tries to compensate, it simply cannot.
Awesome, I'm glad you liked it. I was trying to re-enforce a difficult subject in my book.
Hopefully the lecture and demo helped.
Also I believe the main reason for the plug wire resistance is to reduce radio noise. Not 100% sure on that though.
Yes it is. Basics covered in the books from 1970's. So nothing new.
Im just learning how to use a scope and your videos have been really helpful. Especially the hands on, really locks what im learning. Thanks a lot Man!!
glad to hear my friend. Thanks for the comment
¿Do you offer oscilloscope courses?
I will be, stay tuned.
KNOWLEDGEABLE Sir ScannerDanner
Very impressive tutorial thank you very much helpful video. Take care and have a great day Sir ScannerDanner
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
The way Ive always used the spark line is this:The initial high spike is what energy it takes to ionize the spark plug gap, the spark line is showing the combustion event.with little / no fuel, the spark line curls back upward due to , like you explained, lack of conductivity in the compressed air, which causes the ionization to diminish and the required KV to maintain ionization increases ( compressed air is harder to ionize than a carbon saturated compressed gas).I love it when I hear "I bought a million KV coil"... OK.... so are you running groundless spark plugs ?The coil(s) will only output whats necessary to maintain ionization across the gap.
U da man, Dan. Aprox. 25 years ago when I was green but knew everything I had a ford sedan come in for diag of rough running. Called later and told him that it needed the carburetor (mind you I used assumption and did very little testing). The owner said' I had it replaced last yr., are you sure? "Yes, I am positive". $400 later still ran bad. We had an old Sun Scope that I used to look at the ignition pattern. I was going to school at the time and had an electrical book w/ sec. ign.....
Another awesome video. I'm following everything with the book. I'm learning a ton! Looking forward to the day I can apply it.
cool man. glad to hear it! May God continue to bless your mind and your hands.
You were great along with Eric. I don't recall seeing any negative comments there. Some people might have liked less emphasis on the electronic tools but then they should not be watching that video.
I made couple of nasty comments on generic automotive mechanics but they certainly have no relationship to what you guys do. You are like automotive God to us :-)
very very sharp diag skills truly hard to find a real diagnostic technician. and yes you have helped me more than once i run a shop of 13 men and myself for a used car lot in california selling 175 to 250 cars per month alot of this kinda diag required thanks for your diag info your a elite in this field.
Good morning my friend Paul Danner, even today after ten years subscribed to your channel I watch and learn a lot from your videos. Big hugs to you and your team
I learned quite a bit from this. I bought a scope not long ago and seen pictures explaining all of this, but see it here was a lot more useful.
@trekvana in theory yes but there are so many variables. cylinder compression, af ratio, plug gap etc all affect this firing line. on this car there is only one coil so a bad coil is not an option.
I am glad you liked it! I just checked out your channel, when I get some time I will check out some of your uploads. It looked promising!
Great video thanks man. We have all sorts of scanner and scopes at work that none of us know how to use and never had any training! Previous bosses of mine have bought these wonderful scanners e.tc with no idea how to use them!
Thanks so much! Sounds like it's time for you to show these guys what's up!
Good question, these are capacitive pickups, not current clamps. I'm not exactly sure of the internal difference and how they actually create a voltage signal.
i have the wyze probe. it works great on most cop systems. as for waste spark you can do single cylinder tests with a simple.capacitive pickup. they sell those on AES wave too
Excellent introduction to ignition faults using a scope, the videos combined with the book really are useful. Keep up the good work!
Cool man, keep watching, I will be doing a lot more pico videos soon!
I really appreciate these videos. There isn't much out there about this stuff and you are very thorough. Thanks!
The resistance built into a spark plug wire has no affect on performance of a stock engine. This is due to the ignition coils reserve capacity. I would say most ignition coils have at least 30,000 volts of reserve capacity if not more. Putting in zero resistance plug wires WILL NOT give you more power. However if you built the engine and have upped the compression ratio which requires more coil energy to fire, then you will need all the extra energy you can get.
cool. they will take care of you for sure. i know a few of the guys over there personally.
paul that beautiful analysis of ignition my friend , I gave admirer of his work and I can still learn a lot from you . thank you for sharing your knowledge , big hug and when it comes to rio de janeiro want to meet you ok
It's an ebook and it is not a PDF download. Fill out the comment section on my webpage and I'll send you some more info.
Thanks for your interest!
Paul
the best thing to do with that tool as there are multiple ways to do it. is to follow the test in the component test meter. the vantage is a self guiding tool you just need to pick it up and start using it.
That is exactly correct my friend, however from my experience it has to be a completely dead hole to see this reaction on the secondary waveform. If there are any pressure changes at all this test may not be the best one to identify the problem. In short, if you have a cylinder with low compression you would probably miss it here.
Remember there is other causes of lean misfires. You could have a leaking manifold runner gasket on one cylinder and the waveform would look similar. This is a guide type test, there may be a need for other tests to pinpoint the cause. As for fuel trim problems, I will not use a secondary ignition scope to diagnose them. As for injector flow between cylinders, there is a specific test for that. Check out my "2005 Neon Injector Problem" video (poor quality video, it was my first one)....
thank you so much. your timing is perfect I really needed a pick me up. rough day
Depends how low the compression is. If there is no compression the firing line will be very low and the spark line will be longer. But the main tell-tail would be the KV will not rise on a snap throttle test. This test has variables of course.
Thanks friend.
I used a Sun scope that was taller than me in the 70's. I feel old now. :)
+wyattoneable I remember those!
I showed the lean one. An open spark plug would look like an open spark plug wire (which I showed). Lean and rich mixtures will affect this spark line. A rich mix will be harder to identify using this method alone. Unless of course the plug is completely fouled out, in which case there will be no spark line or a very short one.
Thank you for the informative video. Every bit of information is getting me to understand more and more. I always want to know why and not just what to replace. Hopefully I can remember the vast amount of information you give. That "dont be a parts changer." Is stuck in my head hahaha. I like it. I once changed my alternator, battery and some wiring before I found out my whole problem was just the air conditioner compressor locking up and draining the battery while operating.
Glad it was helpful! You found the right channel for the "why" and "how" my friend
Great information Paul...thank you
killer video. great way to keep your skills sharp with a quick and simple over view of basic system. also great for beginners to help understand the basics. keep them coming
those guys are great too. i bought my first pico from them
This helps I just had thus issue on v8 truck Chevy 6.0 and this helped me resolve the issue.
very good job thanks
I have a bunch of videos where I am using the primary side for analysis but not in this format. I originally did primary on this same vehicle but I didn't like the result so I never uploaded it. sorry
Excellent visual description - way to go man!
If everything is stock, and its an older car, I'd check the grounds. Sometimes they go bad and all sorts of weird stuff happens. I know when installing radios to vehicles that never had them before, you often need to put some in line filters to reduce the effects of current fluctuations from the ignition system. Other wise you tunes may have weird static.
Great video,thanks for sharing this valuable info.
I have been really looking forward to this kind of video from you Paul. I just purchased a pico few weeks ago and learning how to interpret ignition waveform patterns to open the window into the combustion chamber. Thanks Paul. Your videos are awesome and have given me new perspective on troubleshooting drive-ability problems. You turned me into a subscriber. Keep up the excellent work.
9:25 Just a note. Abnormalities to the left of the middle of the burn line are caused by something outside the combustion chamber. Abnormalities to the right of the middle of the burn line are caused by something inside the combustion chamber. This is a great example that demonstrates what I just mentioned.
Sounds like you had a Jim Morton class in the past? Thanks!
@@ScannerDanner I actually got that from Pete Meyers of Motor Age Training. He probably got that from Jim Morton. LOL.
thank you jarin
Good video. Im just wondering is there something else or explaination behind the second high voltage line on the miss from injector??
yes
Great video, added to my favorites.
thanks josh!
Another excellent video!
Good video information
made my day, thanks!
It wouldn't, both types would still read rich at WOT. The MAF design will just have lower than normal WOT MAF readings but that's because the engine isn't "breathing" correctly.
@fidstang snap on and pico is what i use
hi Paul just a question I just got my vantage MT2400 version 6 how can I set up for read Injector on time (milliseconds) BTW thank for great info on every vidoe...
Thanks bro
not sure Craig, I am unfamiliar with them.
Every time the engine snaps its under 100% load so the firing lines are going to be higher and more rapid coil oscillations, Love secondary scope diagnosis
No but I do in my section 1 classroom lectures available on my website. email me and I can send you a picture of one but the best thing is to get those lectures
paul you said you can do this with your pico how can I set my pico up to do a parade like this ?
Thanks brother very helpful 👌
Great vid as usual Paul!
Is the primary vid coming soon?
Excellent video
Yo he trabajado con varias marcas de osciloscopios tales como el que usan en este video, el cual es muy bueno, tambien otros modelos de Snapon y OTC, pero el mejor de todos es el Tektronix TDS de 100 mhz, el cual tiene hasta divisiones de grados de rotacion que es util cuando usas la sonda de presion para revisar la sincronizacion de la banda o cadena. El Tektronix es un poco complicado para usar porque no es un scope con aplicaciones en automocion. Con las sondas de pruebas apropiadas lo sera.
What hand held diagnostic tools do you recommend? I'm thinking about the Maxidas DS708.
...now it's time to play our game....
You are right it is the light. I should have never bought a china-freight centech but I did and now for the record they are junk. I compared it to my dad's snap on light and the rest is history. It was on a dodge neon so the last two wires were about the same lengths as the first two. Now to to find the misfire... p0300 constant miss and computer has p0202 injector circuit control malfunction even though everything seems fine. Gotta love chryslers.
+Ashroyer86 focus on the injector circuit. Those codes are accurate. I have a bunch of videos on injector testing
Can I see on COP with amp or V. fuel misfire.
another great video.
Disregard that comment I just seen it was at fifteen thousand volts sorry about that wasn't paying attention great job buddy
Very good video thanks for the content. So would bad compression on one cylinder show the same waveform as a shorted plug wire?
You'd probably see the voltage building up but just a really bad or no combustion curve at the bottom, since its hard to combust with bad compression.
Awesome video
You still have this Maserati in school?
Thanks Paul
It can be but there is another tool u need to buy to do it. Ill get the name of it for u when i can
Thumbs Up from me man ... .
can I ask you another QUESTION. Last one i promise :)
Sometimes when i start the car there is a loud BANG from the speakers. Radio is stock from the factory.
What could it be ? Discharge ? Battery Connections ? Ground wire ? Starter ? Aliens from space ?
Excellent info thank you.
SCANNERDANNER, to measure secondary ignition voltage waveforms on COP coil over plug you say that you don't do this because there is no where to measure the ground side of the ignition coil. Can't you use a capacitive or inductive oscilloscope probe on the spark plug wire to measure the secondary ignition voltage waveform on COP coil over plug types? I have seen you use the inductive oscilloscope probe that clamps on the spark plug wire to measure the voltage waveforms
Fantastic!!
The scope 'sees' all 6 firing events only on a distributor-based ignition system. COP and other multi-coil systems will require different scope setups.
Hi Paul.
I'm sorry, I had the wrong video when I asked when you would finish it. That was the Ford COP.
I thought it was this one, so when will you finish the primary portion of this video ? thanks again.
any scope is better than no scope. Look into getting a picoscope. Search Autonerdz on the web or picoauto.
A Vantage Pro wouldn't be a bad choice either, then of course the Verus but that is a scanner too and a lot more money.
hey Paul i have a vantage pro and i love it u helped me understand it and use its full capability but i was wondering is there a cheaper alternative for viewing secondary ignition than the snap on sai 2000 for cop or waste spark ignition i was lookin at the wyze probe wand at aeswave.com but i have the snap on standard ignition kit now thanks flat rate tech
On a coil-on-plug system, is there a way to get all the secondary ignition waveforms from all the cylinders on the same screen? I am guessing you would need a separate paddle and a separate channel for each cylinder. But I am sure there are limits to how many channels are available on the DSO.
There are probes that are sold that look like a wand that would lay across a row of coils. But I've never used one
Thanks a lot for this helpful video . I am wondering why the frequency doesn't change during the snap throttle ? the RPM is increasing , the time between the spark signals should decreasing !!
+M.Elec it is a program within the scope. It just takes each firing event and ignores everything else
+ScannerDanner Thanks for feedback
hey paul a good scope to start with?
You cannot go wrong with any picoscope. who are you buying it through?
what would be the settings in the pico scope to catch the misfire and be able to pause the wave form when the misfire occur ?