Hi! I'm sure it must not have been easy to have to go back to tweaking character movement. I'm glad you didn't take the feedback I left as negative, I really think that this is a gem of a game that's in the making. As one of the people that felt that normal movement was slippery (spiritual projection feeling great), I'll be glad to test movement again and provide feedback to confirm that the changes did the trick. As you probably already guessed, everyone that takes time to leave feedback are people that see great potential in the game, I'm rooting for you success!
Thank you so much! It's honestly wonderful to hear your still here following along and supporting us in our journey. Seriously, your feedback has been incredibly helpful.
I can assure you as a mod of the discord server that Jordan listens to everything! It's really good to talk to him about it, because most of the time we have amazing discussions
these changes are great! (+ the background footage teasers too lol) even if I have to mess with the leaderboard a little bit. btw, what I meant by it feeling slippery was the acceleration/deceleration. don't wanna be opposed to change or anything but it'd be useful to know that the run speed being so fast was a major factor in why I play this game so much (not the entire reason, but it adds to the movement feeling fast and controllable so that you can do cool skips and stuff) also I just wanna mention this so that ya don't pull another 0.1.5: if you do change the rejoin momentum, only make it lessened instead of removing it, so that it can still have the 'flowy' feel of moving around the level fast, without canceling all momentum.
Mm, I agree. Although I haven't played the changes obviously, I think reducing the deceleration is a big enough change that the speed change is unnecessary, or at least not to such a degree. It's important to balance first impressions with that feels good once you're into the game proper
@@ymous9109 100% one of my main concerns with this is because of the speedrun potential of it, that could be removed if it was changed. but of course you'll need good first impressions for a significant amount of people to actually try it out, which is why the current system is flawed.
One tip about the discussions page. First tab opened should always be general discussions, not the rules, it might be one click away but so many people just don't do that one extra click. Then, do not fill up the general discussions with 12 pinned topics, that causes new topics to be to be moved to the second page really quickly, and people generally don't press page 2. I've seen this happen all too many times and people just don't interact with one another.
Awesome video, man. Thanks for making it! I know nothing about the game, this is the first video I've watched. Considering that, here's on advise. You wanted to make it easier to control her, but couldn't make it so slow that it was painful. On top of that, you and most that have experience in the game as controlling her perfectly fine. Maybe, make her even slower at the beginning and slowly upgrades her speed (ideally tell that to the player). The player will adjust and will have the best of both worlds. Easy to control when he needs the most, fast paced and fun when he is able to overcome more challenges.
Oh dang. That's a seriously intriguing idea. I really like the thinking here... Maybe we explore mechanics in future chapters of the game where the floor literally speeds up her run speed... hmmmmm
Hey, I'm new and I love ur DA in poxel art, but i find it's odd when ur chat with NPCs that their faces are in cartoon and not in pixel. Maybe is just me but i think i should give u this returns. And i love this kind of game ! It's rly close to Celeste, this kind of game are completly absolute banger, DW when i have money i buy it instantly !!
When I played the demo I did notice some annoying things about the player controls, but the main problem for me was the wall jump. I expect the player to get a bit more upwards momentum when kicking off a wall. Right now, going back and forth between two walls requires a lot more wall jumps than I think are necessary. It feels like I'm spamming jump until I get to the top.
I don't really play platformers so when I did try out the demo, I just attributed the slipperiness to my lack of skill 😅 and it actually made me think that I might not be the audience of this game if I couldnt get thru the demo;;; I'm glad for the speed reduction since I do think it will be much more beginner friendly and I'm excited to try the official demo once it comes out! Tho regardless, I might not be the target audience after all for a precision platformer but I really enjoy your devlogs and will continue to support you guys by at least sharing the game news to my friends who are much more experienced platformers o7
I think games should have a run and a walk, like many 3D games do. Speedrunners can hold the run button the whole time they're playing and casual players can go without pressing it except on certain levels where it's needed for a timed puzle or a long boring section.
That for sure is another solution! When playing the game, I just felt I sometimes didn't have the precision I wanted when not using spiritual projection and this would 100% be resolve by this.
I also had an idea of pushing a button for 'spiritual cancel' which would cancel momentum entirely to be able to land on platform more easily when requiring precision. That way, the character doesn't even really need to be slowed down that often. Maybe it's not good in practice, but hey, I'm no dev ;)
I thought of this but didn't mention this and... thanks for bringing this up, because when actually thinking about how this would change the game, it would feel so natural
@@supersayen0679 My logic is, if you know your game is popular with speedrunners but don't want it to be primarily a speedrun game, add optional features for the speedrunners.
Hi ! Quick question: Don't you think you could've, instead of reducing her max running speed, added more feedback to how and when she is running at max speed ? Like, a small dash/dust animation when she starts running, or something among those lines ? (BTW the stop animation is a really great idea) Cuz what I read isn't that she is too fast, it's that she FEELS hard to control It's juts an idea, and maybe my point is invalid, but, yeah !
Hi, I just downloaded the demo today and it seems fun so far. Just wondering as of 19/09/24 if the current controls are the updated ones or not? The controls are ok but not as responsive as Celeste but I am also getting use to the teleport mechanic. As for early feedback - I only did the first two levels, as someone who does not play this genre much and just wanted to see what the character controls were like, it took me a couple of minutes to figure out that there is one orb and multiple orbs which give multiple teleports. So at the first point where you need to use multiple teleports to get up, I thought I had to wall jump (was too big to wall jump but I tried.... more times than I wish to state) before realising I had teleports left. The first time you show that yellow orb to signify they have a teleport, you should do the same when a multi orb is picked up to explain to newcomer you have more than one teleport. The other major grip was the backgrounds. It's difficult to see what can and cannot be jumped on in the temple level part (level 2). Maybe darken certain elements or something. It can be frustrating to realise, oh that step I can jump on and I can't on the other one, especially after you wasted a teleport to get to a dead end but don't feel it's your fault as you had no way of knowing there was nothing jumpable that way. Otherwise game looks good, controls are ok, story is fine but I'm not that interested, hard to relate to having a sickness but it's also too early to judge. Platforming sections are decent. Just seems solid overall. There are some sections where if you "fail" you have to die because you need more teleports but I guess that's just game design. Keep up the good job.
The reason why they are more honest on Steam in my opinion is basically because the ones watching your videos are more involved. For a "regular" gamer just watching a devlog is already committing. It means they are already interested in the context, how difficult gamedev actually is etc. So they understand you better and feel already closer to you and your team. Discord is even more so. Because if someone is invested enough that they found your link and joined Discord well... They want to be part of your community and they already like you. Steam is basically none of that, you have random people finding your demo, playing it and they can give 100% honest and "non biased" (not biased by the fact they like you I mean) feedback. Because they just landed here, saw a game, played it. They don't know anything about the context, who you are, probably don't even know you make devlogs. So yeah, they can voice their frustrations more easily.
@@OandCoGames It's really nice that you made a video about that! Also, I'm definitely not the biggest fan of 2D platformers, but the combination of a really smart idea, nice gameplay, nice visuals and intriguing story got me to check the demo and I can't wait for more ;) !
Funny thing is, I watch your devlogs from time to time and never really paid attention to the character's speed, however after is was mentioned, it indeed looked insanely uncomfortable! Reducing it was definitely the right decision.
I couldn't "see" that the movement was unprecise from the video, but could feel it when I tested the game. Can't wait to play the game with ajusted controls, level design was superb and I'm sure it's going to be a ton of fun!
@@supersayen0679 I'm not talking about the precision of the movements, but the speed itself. I have experience playing precision platformers, and it seemed to me that this character would be very difficult to control. Of course, you can get used to it and even make it a part of the learning curve, but the first impression is still a little bit spoiled! Anyway I'm really looking forward to this game too, the developer's attitude to feedback really sells it to me, but I don't think I'll touch the demo version, I want to get a great first experience from the full game
The game is looking great! (Honestly it always did), I have to ask though: This whole project came to be because of the 2021 GMTK game jam, so will you be participating in this year's jam?
From just looking at your clips, why does Mae's animation when she is calling the spirit look like she is floating. To me she should adopt the crouching stand she has when she flies to the positon of her spirit as it matches better the act of calling upon all her strength to make the transition.
I disagree that inertia always makes movement feel better. While a lot of great games do use it, hollow knight has instant stop and feels great and not clunky at all. To the contrary makes it easier to do precise movement because you know exactly where you'll be when you let go of the stick. You can prevent it from looking jarring by adding a frame of secondary animation when the player stops running but not make the character keep moving. I don't think HK would be improved by inertia and I don't think it feels less polished because of it. Inertia is fine too, and does feel 'more realistic' but both are legitimate and you should consider pros and cons of each when designing.
Well said. Hollow Knight is a great example of the secondary stopping animation. Honestly it's a subjective thing, but I actually didn't like the controls of Hollow Knight for the first 30 minutes of gameplay... The story, world, artwork, everything else made me willing to work through it. And eventually I was so used to the controls that they no longer felt clunky.
i think the controls have looked slippery for a while yeah, it seems like it's made for more open-ended levels, not like, precision platforming. comparing it to mario wonder & terraria seems to miss the point. i also think that when you get launched by those jellyfish creatures it looks like you're going in a really unpredictable and hard to understand trajectory, like all your vertical speed suddenly drops, and it looks hard to control
I honestly think that spending hours refining the controls yourself is just a waste. You get so used to your own controls that you don't really know what is wrong with it or not. Thats why it's always better to see what other people say about them.
@@OandCoGames I see. Well I haven't played the updated version, so I don't know how it feels comparatively, but I suppose it will probably be just as fun.
Hi! I'm sure it must not have been easy to have to go back to tweaking character movement. I'm glad you didn't take the feedback I left as negative, I really think that this is a gem of a game that's in the making. As one of the people that felt that normal movement was slippery (spiritual projection feeling great), I'll be glad to test movement again and provide feedback to confirm that the changes did the trick. As you probably already guessed, everyone that takes time to leave feedback are people that see great potential in the game, I'm rooting for you success!
Thank you so much! It's honestly wonderful to hear your still here following along and supporting us in our journey. Seriously, your feedback has been incredibly helpful.
I can assure you as a mod of the discord server that Jordan listens to everything! It's really good to talk to him about it, because most of the time we have amazing discussions
Further confirming that this will be a game that everyone will need to check out when it releases.
these changes are great! (+ the background footage teasers too lol) even if I have to mess with the leaderboard a little bit.
btw, what I meant by it feeling slippery was the acceleration/deceleration. don't wanna be opposed to change or anything but it'd be useful to know that the run speed being so fast was a major factor in why I play this game so much (not the entire reason, but it adds to the movement feeling fast and controllable so that you can do cool skips and stuff)
also I just wanna mention this so that ya don't pull another 0.1.5:
if you do change the rejoin momentum, only make it lessened instead of removing it, so that it can still have the 'flowy' feel of moving around the level fast, without canceling all momentum.
Mm, I agree. Although I haven't played the changes obviously, I think reducing the deceleration is a big enough change that the speed change is unnecessary, or at least not to such a degree. It's important to balance first impressions with that feels good once you're into the game proper
@@ymous9109 100%
one of my main concerns with this is because of the speedrun potential of it, that could be removed if it was changed.
but of course you'll need good first impressions for a significant amount of people to actually try it out, which is why the current system is flawed.
Hey! It looks like the game is coming along nicely! Let me know if you guys would like voice acting at any point in future! Free of charge.
it is so painful to watch people play when you have hundreds of hours playtesting and tweaking the controls
Glad to see the change, I had the same experience when I first playtested it
One tip about the discussions page. First tab opened should always be general discussions, not the rules, it might be one click away but so many people just don't do that one extra click. Then, do not fill up the general discussions with 12 pinned topics, that causes new topics to be to be moved to the second page really quickly, and people generally don't press page 2. I've seen this happen all too many times and people just don't interact with one another.
Awesome video, man. Thanks for making it!
I know nothing about the game, this is the first video I've watched. Considering that, here's on advise. You wanted to make it easier to control her, but couldn't make it so slow that it was painful. On top of that, you and most that have experience in the game as controlling her perfectly fine. Maybe, make her even slower at the beginning and slowly upgrades her speed (ideally tell that to the player). The player will adjust and will have the best of both worlds. Easy to control when he needs the most, fast paced and fun when he is able to overcome more challenges.
Oh dang. That's a seriously intriguing idea. I really like the thinking here... Maybe we explore mechanics in future chapters of the game where the floor literally speeds up her run speed... hmmmmm
cant wait to play this game with the boys :)
Hey, I'm new and I love ur DA in poxel art, but i find it's odd when ur chat with NPCs that their faces are in cartoon and not in pixel. Maybe is just me but i think i should give u this returns.
And i love this kind of game ! It's rly close to Celeste, this kind of game are completly absolute banger, DW when i have money i buy it instantly !!
Ooh more chapter 2 gameplay every time its looks cooler and cooler
When I played the demo I did notice some annoying things about the player controls, but the main problem for me was the wall jump. I expect the player to get a bit more upwards momentum when kicking off a wall. Right now, going back and forth between two walls requires a lot more wall jumps than I think are necessary. It feels like I'm spamming jump until I get to the top.
I don't really play platformers so when I did try out the demo, I just attributed the slipperiness to my lack of skill 😅 and it actually made me think that I might not be the audience of this game if I couldnt get thru the demo;;;
I'm glad for the speed reduction since I do think it will be much more beginner friendly and I'm excited to try the official demo once it comes out!
Tho regardless, I might not be the target audience after all for a precision platformer but I really enjoy your devlogs and will continue to support you guys by at least sharing the game news to my friends who are much more experienced platformers o7
Yup, you're not alone, regardless of who the target audience is!
I think games should have a run and a walk, like many 3D games do. Speedrunners can hold the run button the whole time they're playing and casual players can go without pressing it except on certain levels where it's needed for a timed puzle or a long boring section.
That for sure is another solution! When playing the game, I just felt I sometimes didn't have the precision I wanted when not using spiritual projection and this would 100% be resolve by this.
I also had an idea of pushing a button for 'spiritual cancel' which would cancel momentum entirely to be able to land on platform more easily when requiring precision. That way, the character doesn't even really need to be slowed down that often. Maybe it's not good in practice, but hey, I'm no dev ;)
I thought of this but didn't mention this and... thanks for bringing this up, because when actually thinking about how this would change the game, it would feel so natural
@@supersayen0679 My logic is, if you know your game is popular with speedrunners but don't want it to be primarily a speedrun game, add optional features for the speedrunners.
Hi ! Quick question: Don't you think you could've, instead of reducing her max running speed, added more feedback to how and when she is running at max speed ?
Like, a small dash/dust animation when she starts running, or something among those lines ? (BTW the stop animation is a really great idea)
Cuz what I read isn't that she is too fast, it's that she FEELS hard to control
It's juts an idea, and maybe my point is invalid, but, yeah !
The games looking good
Hi, I just downloaded the demo today and it seems fun so far. Just wondering as of 19/09/24 if the current controls are the updated ones or not? The controls are ok but not as responsive as Celeste but I am also getting use to the teleport mechanic.
As for early feedback - I only did the first two levels, as someone who does not play this genre much and just wanted to see what the character controls were like, it took me a couple of minutes to figure out that there is one orb and multiple orbs which give multiple teleports. So at the first point where you need to use multiple teleports to get up, I thought I had to wall jump (was too big to wall jump but I tried.... more times than I wish to state) before realising I had teleports left. The first time you show that yellow orb to signify they have a teleport, you should do the same when a multi orb is picked up to explain to newcomer you have more than one teleport.
The other major grip was the backgrounds. It's difficult to see what can and cannot be jumped on in the temple level part (level 2). Maybe darken certain elements or something. It can be frustrating to realise, oh that step I can jump on and I can't on the other one, especially after you wasted a teleport to get to a dead end but don't feel it's your fault as you had no way of knowing there was nothing jumpable that way.
Otherwise game looks good, controls are ok, story is fine but I'm not that interested, hard to relate to having a sickness but it's also too early to judge. Platforming sections are decent. Just seems solid overall. There are some sections where if you "fail" you have to die because you need more teleports but I guess that's just game design. Keep up the good job.
If you played the playtest build on Steam, those are the updated controls. Thanks for the feedback!
The reason why they are more honest on Steam in my opinion is basically because the ones watching your videos are more involved. For a "regular" gamer just watching a devlog is already committing. It means they are already interested in the context, how difficult gamedev actually is etc. So they understand you better and feel already closer to you and your team. Discord is even more so. Because if someone is invested enough that they found your link and joined Discord well... They want to be part of your community and they already like you.
Steam is basically none of that, you have random people finding your demo, playing it and they can give 100% honest and "non biased" (not biased by the fact they like you I mean) feedback. Because they just landed here, saw a game, played it. They don't know anything about the context, who you are, probably don't even know you make devlogs. So yeah, they can voice their frustrations more easily.
Yeah for sure. It's honestly an excellent resource because of that.
@@OandCoGames It's really nice that you made a video about that!
Also, I'm definitely not the biggest fan of 2D platformers, but the combination of a really smart idea, nice gameplay, nice visuals and intriguing story got me to check the demo and I can't wait for more ;) !
Funny thing is, I watch your devlogs from time to time and never really paid attention to the character's speed, however after is was mentioned, it indeed looked insanely uncomfortable! Reducing it was definitely the right decision.
I couldn't "see" that the movement was unprecise from the video, but could feel it when I tested the game. Can't wait to play the game with ajusted controls, level design was superb and I'm sure it's going to be a ton of fun!
@@supersayen0679 I'm not talking about the precision of the movements, but the speed itself. I have experience playing precision platformers, and it seemed to me that this character would be very difficult to control. Of course, you can get used to it and even make it a part of the learning curve, but the first impression is still a little bit spoiled!
Anyway I'm really looking forward to this game too, the developer's attitude to feedback really sells it to me, but I don't think I'll touch the demo version, I want to get a great first experience from the full game
Please let the demo have Mac support! I really want to try this game :]
The game is looking great! (Honestly it always did), I have to ask though: This whole project came to be because of the 2021 GMTK game jam, so will you be participating in this year's jam?
Likely. Depends on how behind schedule we are with our dev goals for TetherGeist lol
Are u guys going to make the latest available for mac
Mac build will likely come in the fall.
Can’t wait
Great devlog! What’s the resolution of the game?
640x360
@@OandCoGames may I ask, how did you make the conclusion to NOT use 480x270?
a bit slower accekeration would also help
From just looking at your clips, why does Mae's animation when she is calling the spirit look like she is floating. To me she should adopt the crouching stand she has when she flies to the positon of her spirit as it matches better the act of calling upon all her strength to make the transition.
interesting idea
Is there a possibility of a Linux version? I understand the market share issue, but most game engines can make cross-platform games.
Not right now but I actually had made a linux fan port of the game it was for a pretty old version the steps to make a new port should still be up
As long as it runs through Proton, it's fine
Yeah, it might not be too difficult. We'll look at it when we are ready to release it.
I disagree that inertia always makes movement feel better. While a lot of great games do use it, hollow knight has instant stop and feels great and not clunky at all. To the contrary makes it easier to do precise movement because you know exactly where you'll be when you let go of the stick. You can prevent it from looking jarring by adding a frame of secondary animation when the player stops running but not make the character keep moving. I don't think HK would be improved by inertia and I don't think it feels less polished because of it. Inertia is fine too, and does feel 'more realistic' but both are legitimate and you should consider pros and cons of each when designing.
Well said. Hollow Knight is a great example of the secondary stopping animation. Honestly it's a subjective thing, but I actually didn't like the controls of Hollow Knight for the first 30 minutes of gameplay... The story, world, artwork, everything else made me willing to work through it. And eventually I was so used to the controls that they no longer felt clunky.
i think the controls have looked slippery for a while yeah, it seems like it's made for more open-ended levels, not like, precision platforming. comparing it to mario wonder & terraria seems to miss the point.
i also think that when you get launched by those jellyfish creatures it looks like you're going in a really unpredictable and hard to understand trajectory, like all your vertical speed suddenly drops, and it looks hard to control
It's a fair concern for sure. We've playtested Ch. 2 a ton though, and the jellies are actually super fun for people.
Theres a demo?
Yeah, we have a build on steam. Currently in a "playtest" state. Official demo coming soon.
I honestly think that spending hours refining the controls yourself is just a waste. You get so used to your own controls that you don't really know what is wrong with it or not. Thats why it's always better to see what other people say about them.
I didn't feel like she was too slippy or fast...instead of making her speed slower, why not just add a slider for the people complaining?
It's less about a subset of people complaining and more about the first impression people will have when they play it for the first time.
@@OandCoGames I see. Well I haven't played the updated version, so I don't know how it feels comparatively, but I suppose it will probably be just as fun.
Here is some more unsolicited honest feedback. I know it's still WIP, but the color palette for the second chapters feels quite off tbh.
Yeah, we're still fiddling with it.
Comment
lmao
The video is great
@@maxelizedyes
Reply
Congrats
The character is a little bit too fast for sure.