I have been saying for a YEAR that Rhaenyra should have married Harwin. It’s so unfortunate that at Aegon’s nameday hunt Lord Lyonel was the only lord present who didn’t ask for Rhaenyra to marry his son.
I doubt viserys would take Lyonel seriously he assumes Lyonel would say that and jumps to mock him as he's sick of people pushing their children for her hand
@@DeclanWhite1453What advice would he take then? I would like to think that it's pretty obvious that the great houses and Nobles of westeros would want to be a part of the royal family, and he married Alicent. Does he really expect everyone to meander about until the situation solves itself?
@@nonjabulomangoro1871Harwin was part of the city watch and Lyonel was master of laws. They were both in King's Landing so Rhaenyra finishing her tour probably wouldn't have changed anything on that account. Not saying she wasn't wrong in just fucking off back home though 😅
The dance needed to happen, because GRRM needed a reason why the dragons died and aren't existing anymore in Asoiaf. I wouldn't take a scrapped draft too seriously. Because he will have his reasons, why he thought it wasn't a good idea or not good enough for the start of the war. At the point where he wrote Fire and Blood, he had made the official list of Targaryen monarchs, that the dragons died in a civil war and that Rhaenyra was k* //ed by her brother. He now had to fill in the gaps somehow. If he thought that marrying Ser Harwin Strong was a good decision for making the war happen, he would have kept that in the book. If for plot purposes the dance wasn't needed, I think her marrying Harwin would have solved a lot of problems.
and in the original draft aegon/baelon was aemma’s son and still was the eldest male and rightful heir, rhaenyra just thought the throne was her right.
In the Book, Harwin & Larys have two younger unnamed sisters, who are made Rhaenyra's handmaidens pretty much as soon as the Strongs turn up at court. I imagine they're about her age.
Bear in mind that even GRRM himself has said that if anything is canon, it's the show. The book was written as a in-universe 'history book,' of sorts. As the book itself tells the reader multiple times, it was written by multiple unreliable sources, some of whom have reason to skew the facts to make themselves, or their side (typically the greens) look better. Mushroom was team black because he loved Rhaenyra, but the book tells us that he seems to love to skew facts toward the scandalous, so he is ALSO not to always be believed. The show, on the other hand, is us watching the events as they 'actually' happened, in real time, so to speak.
@@icecanyon6090 I didn’t say the whole show is ridiculous, but many things are really ridiculous. Especially if the rumor about the dragons/ their riders where they said that someone is lying about having Targaryen blood yet they become a dragon rider (Most likely Ulf) if they make this happen then I’m absolutely done with any ASOIAF works from HBO
@@l.n.3372 to all who blame Rhaenyra’s sons for their mom being married off (by their grandfather & King) to a gay dude AND when Corlys already knew it…why?! Thing is, Corlys knew he’d never get biological kids from Leanor tho he tried encouraging Rhaenys that - *POOF!* - things would change overnight! You better say the same things when Alyn of Hiull is “legitimamized” and made driftmark’s heir. If it’s unacceptable for Rhaenyra to be in this predicament, don’t move the goalposts for the men fathering bastards all over the place. Look down on the dragon seeds the same way. Let alone maniacs Ramsey Bolton & Geoffrey Lannister. Bastards from rape, from incest… yet we see the sexists loving on them. Always the double standards. And not a peep when Alicent rode Cc out of wedlock in the same room where Rhaenyra did (but not when a child was being beheaded a few doors down…)
Some people still say that the dance of dragons wouldn’t have happened if Rhaenyra married Harwin and had legitimate sons, but what people are also forgetting is that the dance doesn’t have to do anything with the bastardy of Rhaenyras son. The dance took place because the greens wanted to "follow" tradition and make the first born son of the King the rightful heir, even when the king himself never changed his mind about Rhaenyra succeeding him.
Rhaenyra having bastards did impact how people perceived her though, and probably turned certain people against her in the long run. For her to have bastards and flaunt them as legitimate, basically using her father's favour of her and power as king to bully anyone who speaks out about her transgressions into silence, it showed that she didn't honour the very society and people she expected to bow to her one day. She insulted many lords already by ending her tour early and not taking her role as heir seriously. So, her having bastards and having those who spoke out like Vaemond or the Silent Five killed and/or tortured? That sort of behaviour would've definitely made people not like Rhaenyra and see her as unfit to be Queen. As for Viserys, the fact is he made no real attempt to solidify Rhaenyra's future as Queen. If the King could just do whatever he wanted then most of ASOIAF wouldn't have happened. Not listening to counsel and following the traditions and ways of the people you rule is a guaranteed way to encourage an uprising against you... just ask King Aerys II. Viserys made no attempt to change the laws of succession so the firstborn would inherit regardless of gender or prepare the realm for his daughter to succeed him. Especially since Viserys himself only became king because Jaehaerys choose his second son Baelon (Viserys and Daemon's father) as his heir over Rhaenys, despite her being the firstborn of his firstborn, and then the lords of the realm choose Viserys himself over Rhaenys and her son Laenor's claim. The realm clearly refuted every attempt to have a Queen on the throne and Viserys witnessed this, and yet went out of his way to have three sons with Allicent who would obviously be a challenge to Rhaenyra and her descendants' claim. Viserys is the reason the dance happened at all and he just encouraged Rhaenyra's stupid actions, enabling her to think she was above tradition and only encouraged more animosity towards her. Rhaenyra's claim, and her future descendants' claims, would always be questioned the moment that Viserys has a trueborn son and yet he went and had several anyway.
I think a lot of things would play out the same more or less because I think it's a compelling core part of the story that the parentage of Rhaenyra's children was just an excuse for most people involved. It's particularly likely that Larys killing his family had nothing to do with Rhaenyra - if anything he might be motivated to kill them earlier in the timeline if he saw his brother "getting everything."
Only way the dance would not have happened was if viserys had not remarried. No male heir. That’s why rhaneys didn’t get to be queen. She had two boy cousins.
@@davidholmes5418 They're not step siblings. They're Half siblings. Step would be if Alicent already had kids when they married. As in Daemon is the step father to Jace and Jace and Luke are step siblings to Daemons daughters.
What if Viserys had wed Rhaenyra to Daemon like The Rogue Prince asked in episode four? For this to occur I think Daemon would not have abandoned her in the pleasure den. Lady Rhea Royce seems like she would tell the truth about it being unconsummated. A petition for annulment could be done.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 Yes. All over an Otto Hightower rumor. Also, Viserys did say that Daemon could have anything when he returned from the Stepstones.
@@KainBooks It’s not just Otto’s influence. Viserys loved his brother but he knew to never let him get close to power. Most of the realm would have opposed his rule since he would have been Maegor 2.0. Even when he’s allied with rhaenyra he’s self interested, he’s no submissive male wife. He only got with her to sabotage her reputation as a part of a plan to get closer to the throne by tearing down claimants and enemies. And just because he said he would allow daemon to have anything upon returning from the stepstones doesn’t mean that includes taking his daughter in marriage. Viserys was never down with that and the only way Rhaenyra and daemon even managed to tie the knot was because they secretly absconded and did it anyways behind Vizzy’s back while he was rotting to death and on powerful painkillers half the time which basically put him in a half aware state where he could have never consented anyways.
@@KainBooks fine, you think it's a rumor, but 1. Viserys believes it. 2. Viserys doesn't want Daemon to be king and 3. Why would Viserys think he would treat Rhaenyra much better than Rhea Rhoyce once they're married?
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 We saw in the show that he didn't have sex with her. Daemon(in separate timeline) could have made the request before their night out. Technically, Viserys went back on his word in the show. Also, Daemon had been gone for about four years.
I think marrying Jace (Baelon) to Baela would go a long way in smoothing over tensions with the Velaryons even though she is a Targaryen. Or at least Baela and Luc.
Driftmark would not have passed to Vaemond. It would have passed Corys' grandchildren by his daughter Laena should Laenor had predeceased him without having any heirs of his own.
If Vaemond had sons, why wouldn't it go to him? This series culture is pretty sexist against women as shown thru Rhaenys losing out on the throne, and everything Rhaenyra had to endure. If Vaemond has sons and Corlys only son died or leaves without an heir, then it's logical that Vaemond sons would inherit drift mark instead.
@@IAmostSeeTheWorld but Targaryen plotlines show men favored over women. We don't necessarily have reason to believe that Velaryon would favor granddaughters (Baela and Rhaena) over boys (aka Vaemond son)
@@l.n.3372 the law of the Andals and of the First Men says that Sons come before Daughters, but daughters come before brothers. Rhaenyra lost the throne because Viserys broke tradition, didn't renew the vows of the lords after the birth of Aegon and was an idiot all around meanwhile Rhaenyra isolated herself in Dragonstone and was in general completely useless without her daddy.
Nice that you gave a better introduction then in the show My problem is sir harwen was just a background extra until ep6 and then he's killed off. One would think they would give a better introduction to the father of rheanyras children
14:47 the biggest danger here is helaena/laenor match along with a match between aegon and one of Daemon/Laena's twins. This gives team green caraxes and meleys and basically makes sure that Rhaenyra will lose the war quickly
I think in this scenario there isn’t a dance however when Rhaenyra is crowned she’ll have to deal with a lot if assassination attempts and rebellions. The Velaryons can be brought back into the fold by marrying Laenor to Helena and Baelon to Baela
absolutely nothing would have change. in the canon it is clearly describe why this conflict started. This begin even before the velaryon boys were born. Alicent from the moment she gave birth to Aegon when she was 19 not 15 like in the show. she begin to build Aegon's path to the throne. she believed her son should be king because he was the first male born son of Viserys I. she wasnt friend with rhaenrya. never tried to be her friend or mother in fact she had her own court of ladies and lords that follow her with whom she will plot and this lords later became Aegon's green councilmen. she whore shame Rhaenrya from an early age. alicent already had poison her children, had gather a group of powerful lords to stan behind aegon and had already decided that she would usupoerd the throne if she must before the velaryon boys were born. before rhaenrya even married Leanor in 113AC as all her children but Daeron who was born on the following year along side jacaerys in 114 AC. the issue was made by the greens. Otto who push viserys to take a second wife after Aemma was dead and he had already declare Rhaenrya his heir. to Alicent who since the moment her son was born she decided Rhaenrya needed to go because she was an obticle to her boy. she poison her children for 23 years. even when viserys kick otto out of KL she maintain her teaching. so much that is so obvious Aegon and Aemond have no respect or love for their older sister. as Aemond calls her a old whore. that is pure alicent and her whore shaming campaign.
The video is clearly about the show not about the book so it doesn't matter what anyone did differently in the books. Alicent and Rhaenyra are friends in the show and I think it makes the outcome so much more tragic because of it. George is clearly on board with the changes the show made
The show is not ‘what actually happened’ 😂 George has said since season 1 of Game Of Thrones that only the books are canon not any of the shows (obviously F&B being the exception to being 100% reliable due to it being history book)
The greens would still have tried for the throne true but without any evidence to help fuel the Hightower's rumors (lets be honest the Hightower's would have spread rumor weather they where true or not, Rhanenrya was just unlucky with the kids looks being a obvious weak point) and therefore the Draconian consequences for spreading those caught spreading those rumors several lords who in cannon flocked to Greens may choose Rhaenrya instead. It could have been a dramatic shift in support if nothing else.
TL; DR At the end Even if Rhaenyra marries Harwin, a war would've still likely happened, keep in mind Otto's plot to have Alicent married to Viserys started not long after Aemma was dead, the entire time he plotted to have Alicent give Viserys the male heir he wanted. At the same time, the Velaryons would've been greatly insulted, keep in mind Rhaenyra marries Laenor because the crown *needs* to have the Velaryons back into the fold, they had already conducted a private war in the stepstones against the King's wishes and have the largest fleet in the realm, not to mention Velaryon lands are a stone's throw from King's Landing, having the Velaryons as enemies was a bad idea and Viserys knew this, the only way the Velaryons would be appeased would've been with a direct connection to the throne either via King Viserys or via his heir Rhaenyra, nothing else would suffice, if Viserys marries Alicent and Rhaenyra marries Harwin they would've been rebuffed twice and Corlys wouldn't have taken it. By this point, the Velaryons are deeply disgruntled with the crown, while Alicent has already birthed Aegon, assuming Daemon still marries Laena, the Velaryons would've immediately sought to have Aegon and Aemond married to Baela and Rhaena, and the greens would've accepted because it would've greatly strengthened their position and Aegon's claim, potentially Rhaenyra could've offered her two kids as well (Baelon and Aereon) to the Velaryons. Daemon and Caraxes probably would be the largest wildcard here, he clearly despises Otto because of his scheming and by extension holds no love or loyalty to the Hightowers, but then again assuming Rhaenyra's marriage to Harwin remains strong (heh) he wouldn't have much of a chance to get back into the line of succession. Essentially, if team green secures Velaryon support, they would have House Lannister, House Velaryon, House Hightower and potentially House Baratheon all on their sides, as well as Meleys, Seasmoke, Vhagar, Sunfyre, Dreamfyre and Tessarion, while team black would only have Syrax, Caraxes (if Daemon doesn't just fuck off to Essos), Arrax and Vermax, the latter 2 being too small to present a serious threat to the green dragons. Team black would have the support of the north since House Stark is oath-bound, a strong house no doubt, but not enough to even the odds, House Strong as well, but they're not nearly the most powerful house in the Riverlands, i don't see a scenario in which team black triumphs here, presumably the sowing of the seeds would've happened much earlier, which gives the blacks Vermithor and Silverwing, but their betrayal would also not take long since neither Ulf nor Hugh would be willing to die for a clearly losing side. Sure, Rhaenyra birthing bastard after bastard did not help her cause with other causes, but even if she birthed trueborn kids, the lords would still refuse her for being a woman, presumably Rhaenyra might move her court to the North where she'll find more support in the Starks and Manderlys than stay in Dragonstone where she'd be sandwiched between the Velaryon fleet and the green Dragons. TL;DR If Rhaenyra married Harwin Strong it probably would've backfired massively, and placed Rhaenyra in an even more precarious position.
I know we’ll most likely never see Laenor (I’m sure I misspelled that) again, but it would be a cool payoff to see him return and make a big impact for the blacks in the war since war was what he had yearned for in all that time that he felt useless to Rhaenyra
This would've probably been the best course of action while still keeping Rhaenyra as heir, it would've given Daemon the direct connection to the throne once Viserys passed while also empowering the Velaryons and given them a strong place in the royal family, perhaps some disputes could arise as a result of Rhaenyra being a woman but this would've kept the Hightowers from further attempting to sneak into the line of succession.
Knowing that Corlys, just like Otto, wanted his blood on the throne? Either he would've had to marry one of his and Laena's children to Rhaenyra and Daemon's heir so keep both parties happy, or risk the Dance happening anyway since if Laena had a son he would have just as much claim and the same precedent as Aegon did as the firstborn son of Viserys. No matter what, if Viserys remarries and has a son, that son would be a challenge to Rhaenyra, no matter who she is married to.
Ohh wow, I like this: 1. Harwin should be the one taking Rhaenyra’s maidenhood, not Criston Cole. 2. Criston Cole remain true to his vows and get concerned when the Princess see Harwin over and over again. 3. Criston confided to Alicent about his concern and Alicent push the matter further, but Rhaenyra is doing the “I’m not doing that that’s treason” talk. 3. Rhaenyra couldn’t trust Criston with her secret so she cast him aside and Criston become the Sworn Protector to Alicent. 4. Alicent genuinely support Rhaenyra as the heiress, and want to steer her into the right direction, but Rhaenyra is being impulsive and disregarded her. Alicent ask Rhaenyra to marry him and Rhaenyra say he’s not suitable, she need Valyrian Blood (due to the phropecy but undisclossed to Allicent). Allicent sees this as Rhaenyra’s hubris and grow to dislike her. 5. Rhaenyra ended up marrying Laenor, but keep Harwin around as lover. The disdain between Alicent and Rhaenyra cemented when Rhaenyra gave birth to Harwin’s son and have him proclaimed as her Heir. Criston and Allicent know this to be untrue and Criston being this righteous figure started to plant that Aegon is the true Heir. Alicent agree that she cannot allow such immoral people ruling Westeros and become the main plotter instead of a “tool”. 6. Harwin is killed by Larys who shares similar view, feeling that his brother brings shame to Strong name. His goal is never to enjoy Alicent’s foot but to actually have control over everyone. He’s just like Otto Hightower but with unknown (yet) motive. If he’s a seer then maybe he translated his vision as “only true Targaryen should be allowed to ascend the throne to protect everyone from whatever lays north” With this storyline, I think it can make Green much more likeable but Black still shares relatability since what Green does to the Strong Brothers will still be a Scarlet Letter type of interaction, when they’re just decent innocent children and in coming times grow to be good ruler.
If rhaenyra and harwin married, the same story would've happened. Otto and Alicent were against rhaenyra before she even had kids. Otto wanted aegon named as heir as soon as aegon was passed hi infancy and alicent was against rhaenyra the minute ser Criston told her that he clapped rhaenyra's butt cheeks 😂. So no matter what the dance would've happened
15:34 a smarter choice would be to reach out to house velaryon and even his old nemesis Daemon for the hand of one of the twins for Aegon. Give Corlys and Rhaenys a "direct line to the iron throne" as Lyonel described in episode 2.
This would've been a great match honestly, she would've become Lady Rhaenyra Strong and their sons would've been legitimate Lords. :) If they had a daughter, Lady Visenya Strong, that has a nice ring to it really. I hoipe someone writes a fanfic about this.
It would be interesting if in this timeline, the Velaryons revolt with Daemon, who now feels slighted by Rhaenyra. It could be the Blacks vs the Blues. Caraxes + Meleys + Seasmoke will still be quite a match-up against the historical Blacks.
Funny enough I probably would’ve been on team black if Rhaenyra actually had legitimate sons. Rhaenrya illegitimate sons was always going to cause a civil war especially with Daemon and Rhaenrya children vs Strong bastards.
Gotta admit it though… When I was watching early S1, I was rooting for Allison to marry Vis cuz (1) the Laena was so young and (2) I thought Allison was so cute, sweet, prerty, and innocent. What it led to mortified me. Had 6 roommates in med school & it turned out that 1 was a vile sociopath. Alicent reminds me of her so much. Just a monster beyond ur wildest dreams. U trust them, let them in…then channel any control they gain into attempts to destroying u. Alicent went w/o protest into a life locked away pumping out heirs (remember Rhaenyra saying that?). She’s miserable but too weak to change anything. As Rhanys said, she merely sought a little window in her prison. And because Alicent is miserable, everyone else has to suffer w/ her. That’s why she started a civil war over her “friend” getting laid. She’s not woman enough to be her own person and go after ANY relief AT ALL. She didn’t even try making sex w/ Vis enjoyable for her, denying her dad from using her to whatever ends he desired even when it was to pimp her out, or to have any friendships except the 1 that was competitive & dysfunctional.. She JUMPED at the first hint of any perceived validation/encouragement/permissoion to go full blown c%nt. Anything to quiet her conscience so she could cut loose her selfishness, pride, and resentment. Never questioned anything that even hinted at justifying her deepest desires. Her father told her that outrageous lie about how her almost lifelong best friend would end up slaughtering her family. And she WANTED to believe it and purposely ignored her better judgment (and common sense) so she could use it to assuage her guilt for usurping the throne. It’s such a joke…Rhaenyra was the named heir for decades & all the houses had pledged obeisance to that plan …even if that was her style, she didnt NEED to kill anyone. And Aegon Hightower didn’t want it anyway. She didn’t ask Rhaenyra about the tea that Larys claimed she was given when it could have easily just been a precaution demanded by Vis. Allicent herself gave it to the girl her son raped. But Alicent had been looking for some internal “reason” to become openly hostile and antagonist w/ Rhaenyra (and eventually supplant her as heir). She musta known Laenor was gay, but NEVER spoke w/ Rhaenyra re: whether or not there’d been successful attempts to produce heirs w/ the lawful husband. She WANTED them to be bastards, to steal what was intended for them & to make them interior to her kids. It musta gnawed at her how good those kids turned out compared to hers, and saying “maybe it’s their mother” to her brother just confirmed her insecurity over her crap mothering. And she was fool enough to take the random babblings of a dying man as permission to steal a throne for her scumbag kid that ste KNEW was unfit and couldn’t rule even his own person. Even though it was prefaced as a response to an earlier convo & question. There was no informing him who he was speaking to in case he was confused. There was no “ We did not talk about that,” “what do u mean by prince who is promised,” or “are u sure ur talking to the right person?” There was no thought given to the fact they’d been putting him in an opiate stupor so that controlling everything fell to them. Alicent regrets none of these missed opportunities to sort out confusion and communicate w/ ppl directly. And it wasn’t idiocy or naivety. Her shrewdness and ability to scheme has been shown countless times. And there’s multiple convos between her & Otto where they speak blatantly about how they’re playing at a game, scheming, plotting, and actively working at installing her son & other betrayals. Anyone who calls her decent or says she’s just confused or a victim has real life issues judging people’s character, motives, and behavior. The time & effort that shoulda gone into parenting her little demon boys was spent attacking Rhaenyra. She had no mastery over her emotions & her jealousy and spite drove her into the arms & counsel of bad men. It’s why she displayed her feet to a murderous pervert while he pleasured himself. It’s why she allowed her evil father, who’d rather the realm burn than settle for being in the top 0.001 percentile of it.
This would have been a great change. Really only saying that because Ser Harwin was gorgeous! And Rhaenyra would’ve been much happier - he seemed to demonstrate a lot of positive qualities as a father and partner, even in the short time we saw him ❤
The war still happen Because the whole point of the war is put a member of house Hightower in the throne, while young for house tower could influence them, and guide them to become Lord who no longer have values of Valeria
I think you're missing the point, the parentage of her children is just the low hanging fruit. They'll always find a reason to hate her and try to get Aegon on the throne.
If Viserys ever suggested to Rhaenyra that she should marry Harwin Strong, Rhaenyra would instantly hate Harwin and wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole lol.
because none of these stories are meant to have happy endings. it doesn't matter who marries who or who dies. nobody is allow to be happy in the JRR Martin universe.
The big changes have nothing to do with the bastardry. Nothing at all. The real potential change is Lyonel staying on as Hand of the King and that is a game changer. Various alliances will play out differently potentially. Getting the Valaryons inside is easy enough by offering Luke to one of Daemons daughters with Laena. No Otto means the green council coup plays out very differently. If the hand of the king is in her side then she is in a very strong position. Also, what impact on Cole. If she never uses him as a living dildo then he probably stays as one of her biggest allies giving her more friends in the Kingsguard. Those are the big changes.
Literally if she would’ve made the correct decisions, the whole dance would have been avoided. My allegiance is to queen rhae, but I can’t help but realize that if she had made different choices and spoke up at the right times, the entire dance could’ve been avoided because there would be no argument to her claiming the throne. Also wtf… viserys should’ve just let daemon marry her.
Maybe, maybe not. The deal wouldn’t be the same. Once again, her betrothal of Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena in canon was a cry for help to Rhaenys because she knew the greens would most likely supplant Luke for Vaemond. By getting her support she could feel a bit more secure but in this timeline the petition never happens and assuming she isn’t going through I crisis that could put her family in danger she may or may not seek a marriage between families. But let’s say she does for some reason. Like I mentioned earlier the deal would not be the same. Baela and Baelon(Jace in this au) would be king and Queen if things go smoothly, but Rhaena and Aerion(Luke in this au) will not be lord and lady of driftmark. They would be lord and lady of Harrenhall. The appeal of the marriage pact in canon would be that both her granddaughters would sit at the head of the two most powerful houses in Westeros and House Strong is not one of them. While they are a respected house, even with the addition of dragons through Rhaenyra and her sons they are not as powerful as the Velaryons. They don’t have their wealth, or their ships. Not to mention Harrenhall is thought be cursed so Rhaenys may not want to tempt fate by wedding one of her granddaughters to Luke especially after the way her kids died.
Okay, I am very confused on why everyone think Vemond superseeds Leana and her children. Westeros follows Male Preference Primgeniture. Vemond comes after Leana and her daughters. What he did in the show was a bs powergrab that Otto and Alcient were in on. Hence why Rhaenys was there to originally peition for herself and Baela, who would be the rightful heir to driftmark. There have been multiple female rulers of seats in the 7 kingdoms. It's simply the Targaryens who keep screwing up basic succession laws. All because Jaehaerys was really insecure about his own claim to the thrown (cause he stole it from his niece Aerea) so he disinherited his granddaughter, the lawful hier to the throne, for her uncle, then did it again, for Viserys.
The only way to prevent the Dance would have been to marry Ser Gwayne Hightower to Rhaenyra. Otto Hightower would not put Aegon in front of his own son. The other option was to make Rhaenyra heir presumptive only.
Not necessarily. Rhaenyra had her own agency but Otto wanted to mold Aegon and place him on the throne. Even if Otto's son married Rhaenyra, he would only be prince consort to the queen. But Aegon would be king outright and thus the highest in the land. That's more appealing to Otto.
if Rhaenyra married Harwin , the dance would still happen because Otto and Alicient would still wanna Aegon on the throne. At this time Rhaenyra wouldn’t have support from Velaryon since Corlys was ambiguous. Corlys only support Rhaenyra because his kin will get the throne eventually. He would support Aegon because Alicient could purposed marry between Helena and Laenor to tie the support. Since Otto already got sent away. Corlys might take position as hand of the king. Daemon can choose either way he won’t get what he wants and 100% black will loose. Green will have 6 Dragons and black have 4 and untamed dragons
That would’ve been a great opportunity for how strong to rebuild the harenhal castle as well as the perfect opportunity for how strong to become more paramount of the Riverlands It would’ve been how strong versus hot house high tower. They still would’ve been a war because well those Lord did not want a woman for a queen, but they would not be able to use that bastardized excuse to go to war.
Aemond may never get Vhagar, might been claimed by the youngest daughter (she would have a chance then) or if so, Luke and Jace might defend thier uncle on his claim, Aemond may never lose the eye. Jace becomes king (arguable his temperament he might be a great king.) The queen that never was, would back Raenyra claim. because it's the true claim daemon would have stay in Pentos to guard the shores. Never having children with the queen. all the dragons will be on her side ANd in 170 ish years when the long night happens, the prince was promised never was born and white walkers take over, because the events that should have set the stage never happened dooming the realm to darkness. Basically if events didn't happen this way in HotD then GOT will never happen. it is her mistakes and victories that are important to the story.
How would vaemon be the heir if coryls dies 🤔. I thought the 2nd sons only becomes heir if oldest doesn't have any heirs of their own. In this case coryls has laenor so if coryls dies then laenor would rule driftmark.
The church of the seven as well as house, Hightower, and the rest of the Lords of the seven kingdom do not appreciate how Targaryen association with magic in Valeria customs, and the first share common ancestor so they have similar custom they just different tribes of the same people Valeria is different. The royal family of different custom only is appreciated the robber of Baratheon sits on the throne. Because they realize, even though he has similar customs, he does make a ruler, and then the peace the house Targaryen gave the kingdom.
If only Viserys didn’t get married again…he already had an heir with Rhaenyra and if she died, there was Daemon. There was no need for him to keep having children, plus Rhaenyra was 14 when the series started so she was of marriageable age (In GOT standards of course) He could’ve married her off and the problem of lack of more successors solved when she had children🤡
Those children being bastard would not have been a problem if she was a male Tarian, because he would be a capable warrior and would’ve been able to destroy any Lord that challenged their decision because even though those children were bastard, since she was a member of the royal family it shouldn’t have matter while in the song of fire those bastards of house Lannister do not have Royal blood that’s why that was an issue what house tower uses to try to justify the treason it’s not a real problem. The real problem is the Royal family still practice their foreign customs and the laws of the kingdom cannot do nothing about it since the royal family has dragons if the church ,maester , & high Tower succeeded with their Deas, Carrie, and royal bloodline. They could easily fix that as the show shows without the dragons they were forced to assimilate their customs, more often than not.
that wouldn't be possible, as he swore an oath to never marry. That could only happen if she had renounced her claim and probably her family as a whole and went with him to Essos.
what would happen? i would hope some kind of tragedy bc we need a certain line to be born in order for the prince that was promised to be born… Arya Stark 🙄
Ok so first, thats not how that works. Rhaenyra is married, the children are born out of wedlock so they will remain bastards a royal decree would not give them what they desire, honor nor do their plain features help any over Alicent's children. Viserys named Rhaenyra heir and nobody cares😂😂😂 there is nothing Visery can do Rhaenyra has damged her reputation beyond repair. Instead of gaslighting Laenor she should have understood the pain she would put her children through and herself. But she doesn't she's irresponsible and reckless and is simply not fit. Lyonel is honorable I know its easy just to be like "do whay you wanna do bro" but you have to understand and respect the aspects of the story. Lyonel would rather see his son go to the wall than live with the reality of what his son has done which is take all of his father's hardwork and throw it in the trash over some 😺😂 The marriage with Laenor would be broken and Corlys would look for reassurance. Obviously being burned twice he will go Essos as he meant to and no doubt finish carving out his own kingdom. Or more than likely he will turn to Alicent's side. Of course Daemon won't give up his daughters but there are two children Corlys can use, Addam and Alyn who would assuredly have children soonee rather than later.
The dance happens regardless of who she marries, book or show. originally it was written that Rhaenyra marries a Strong and has legitimate children but dance happens anyway and in the show Otto himself already says it doesn’t matter if she was Jaehaerys born again since she’s a woman. End of the day aside from the fact George needed the dance to happen for plot reasons it was always gonna happen because she’s a woman
Uniting the families and their claims *is* a massive political advantage though. It cuts off a large chunk of the political purpose behind what the greens wanted in the Dance
I still think in whatever timeline exists Rhaenyra names her first born daughter Visenya.
I have been saying for a YEAR that Rhaenyra should have married Harwin. It’s so unfortunate that at Aegon’s nameday hunt Lord Lyonel was the only lord present who didn’t ask for Rhaenyra to marry his son.
If Rhaenyra was actually dutiful she could have gotten round to House Strong on her tour but whump whump.
I doubt viserys would take Lyonel seriously he assumes Lyonel would say that and jumps to mock him as he's sick of people pushing their children for her hand
@@DeclanWhite1453What advice would he take then? I would like to think that it's pretty obvious that the great houses and Nobles of westeros would want to be a part of the royal family, and he married Alicent. Does he really expect everyone to meander about until the situation solves itself?
Agreed, but he didn't because he was not the self-serving type and that's why Viserys had so much respect for him.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871Harwin was part of the city watch and Lyonel was master of laws. They were both in King's Landing so Rhaenyra finishing her tour probably wouldn't have changed anything on that account. Not saying she wasn't wrong in just fucking off back home though 😅
The dance would still happen. In the original drafts of the princess and the queen, she married harwin and they still usurped Rhaenyra.
She married harwin dad not harwin but yea still usurped
The dance needed to happen, because GRRM needed a reason why the dragons died and aren't existing anymore in Asoiaf. I wouldn't take a scrapped draft too seriously. Because he will have his reasons, why he thought it wasn't a good idea or not good enough for the start of the war. At the point where he wrote Fire and Blood, he had made the official list of Targaryen monarchs, that the dragons died in a civil war and that Rhaenyra was k* //ed by her brother.
He now had to fill in the gaps somehow. If he thought that marrying Ser Harwin Strong was a good decision for making the war happen, he would have kept that in the book.
If for plot purposes the dance wasn't needed, I think her marrying Harwin would have solved a lot of problems.
But the "original draft" is not what was published or acted out, so it really makes no difference.
@@carastone3473 no there was 2 others drafts and all still ended up with her throne being stolen…also she didn’t marry harwin she married his dad
and in the original draft aegon/baelon was aemma’s son and still was the eldest male and rightful heir, rhaenyra just thought the throne was her right.
In the Book, Harwin & Larys have two younger unnamed sisters, who are made Rhaenyra's handmaidens pretty much as soon as the Strongs turn up at court. I imagine they're about her age.
Bear in mind that even GRRM himself has said that if anything is canon, it's the show. The book was written as a in-universe 'history book,' of sorts. As the book itself tells the reader multiple times, it was written by multiple unreliable sources, some of whom have reason to skew the facts to make themselves, or their side (typically the greens) look better. Mushroom was team black because he loved Rhaenyra, but the book tells us that he seems to love to skew facts toward the scandalous, so he is ALSO not to always be believed. The show, on the other hand, is us watching the events as they 'actually' happened, in real time, so to speak.
I think we may have seen a few flashes of harwins sisters here and there and I imagine they’re younger than rhaenyra in the show
@@carastone3473watch season two now makes me not want the show to be canon, many many many things are wrong and ridiculous with the show
@@Doodmove only main problem i have with season 2 so far is the rhaenyra alicent meeting. Wouldnt call the season as a whole ridiculous
@@icecanyon6090 I didn’t say the whole show is ridiculous, but many things are really ridiculous. Especially if the rumor about the dragons/ their riders where they said that someone is lying about having Targaryen blood yet they become a dragon rider (Most likely Ulf) if they make this happen then I’m absolutely done with any ASOIAF works from HBO
Vaemond Velaryon: "THOSE KIDS ARE!!! ... not bastards, everything is fine; carry on."
But if Harwin/Rhaenyra was canon, Luc wouldn't be in line for drift mark anyway since not "the son" of Laenor.
@@l.n.3372 He would be in line for Harrenhal, but honestly... no one wants Harrenhal.
@@blockofvik7133 Everybody wants Harrenhal, they never learn their lesson
@@solastro5595 Vaemomd Velaryonl, are u suggesting ur nephew partakes in buggery? Does this run in the family?!
@@l.n.3372 to all who blame Rhaenyra’s sons for their mom being married off (by their grandfather & King) to a gay dude AND when Corlys already knew it…why?! Thing is, Corlys knew he’d never get biological kids from Leanor tho he tried encouraging Rhaenys that - *POOF!* - things would change overnight!
You better say the same things when Alyn of Hiull is “legitimamized” and made driftmark’s heir.
If it’s unacceptable for Rhaenyra to be in this predicament, don’t move the goalposts for the men fathering bastards all over the place. Look down on the dragon seeds the same way. Let alone maniacs Ramsey Bolton & Geoffrey Lannister. Bastards from rape, from incest… yet we see the sexists loving on them. Always the double standards. And not a peep when Alicent rode Cc out of wedlock in the same room where Rhaenyra did (but not when a child was being beheaded a few doors down…)
“He watches over his family with his son Luke by his side” FOUL
Diabolical!!!!
After a barbecue gone wrong xD
Some people still say that the dance of dragons wouldn’t have happened if Rhaenyra married Harwin and had legitimate sons, but what people are also forgetting is that the dance doesn’t have to do anything with the bastardy of Rhaenyras son. The dance took place because the greens wanted to "follow" tradition and make the first born son of the King the rightful heir, even when the king himself never changed his mind about Rhaenyra succeeding him.
Rhaenyra having bastards did impact how people perceived her though, and probably turned certain people against her in the long run. For her to have bastards and flaunt them as legitimate, basically using her father's favour of her and power as king to bully anyone who speaks out about her transgressions into silence, it showed that she didn't honour the very society and people she expected to bow to her one day. She insulted many lords already by ending her tour early and not taking her role as heir seriously. So, her having bastards and having those who spoke out like Vaemond or the Silent Five killed and/or tortured? That sort of behaviour would've definitely made people not like Rhaenyra and see her as unfit to be Queen.
As for Viserys, the fact is he made no real attempt to solidify Rhaenyra's future as Queen. If the King could just do whatever he wanted then most of ASOIAF wouldn't have happened. Not listening to counsel and following the traditions and ways of the people you rule is a guaranteed way to encourage an uprising against you... just ask King Aerys II. Viserys made no attempt to change the laws of succession so the firstborn would inherit regardless of gender or prepare the realm for his daughter to succeed him. Especially since Viserys himself only became king because Jaehaerys choose his second son Baelon (Viserys and Daemon's father) as his heir over Rhaenys, despite her being the firstborn of his firstborn, and then the lords of the realm choose Viserys himself over Rhaenys and her son Laenor's claim. The realm clearly refuted every attempt to have a Queen on the throne and Viserys witnessed this, and yet went out of his way to have three sons with Allicent who would obviously be a challenge to Rhaenyra and her descendants' claim. Viserys is the reason the dance happened at all and he just encouraged Rhaenyra's stupid actions, enabling her to think she was above tradition and only encouraged more animosity towards her. Rhaenyra's claim, and her future descendants' claims, would always be questioned the moment that Viserys has a trueborn son and yet he went and had several anyway.
I think a lot of things would play out the same more or less because I think it's a compelling core part of the story that the parentage of Rhaenyra's children was just an excuse for most people involved. It's particularly likely that Larys killing his family had nothing to do with Rhaenyra - if anything he might be motivated to kill them earlier in the timeline if he saw his brother "getting everything."
Lyonel has a good chance of staying as hand of the king. And having him as an ally changes a huuuuge amount
Only way the dance would not have happened was if viserys had not remarried. No male heir. That’s why rhaneys didn’t get to be queen. She had two boy cousins.
She had 3 step brothers/nephews, they weren’t cousins
@@davidholmes5418 They're not step siblings. They're Half siblings. Step would be if Alicent already had kids when they married. As in Daemon is the step father to Jace and Jace and Luke are step siblings to Daemons daughters.
RHAENYS had two boy cousins @davidholmes5418
@@michalgenesove1646 lol reading comprehension appears to be something I struggle with,
@@davidholmes5418 😅😅
I think Rhaenyra’s first two kids names might be the same but the third definitely wouldn’t be named Joffrey
What if Viserys had wed Rhaenyra to Daemon like The Rogue Prince asked in episode four?
For this to occur I think Daemon would not have abandoned her in the pleasure den. Lady Rhea Royce seems like she would tell the truth about it being unconsummated. A petition for annulment could be done.
Do you not remember why Viserys had Rhaenyra named heir in the first place?
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 Yes. All over an Otto Hightower rumor. Also, Viserys did say that Daemon could have anything when he returned from the Stepstones.
@@KainBooks
It’s not just Otto’s influence. Viserys loved his brother but he knew to never let him get close to power. Most of the realm would have opposed his rule since he would have been Maegor 2.0. Even when he’s allied with rhaenyra he’s self interested, he’s no submissive male wife. He only got with her to sabotage her reputation as a part of a plan to get closer to the throne by tearing down claimants and enemies.
And just because he said he would allow daemon to have anything upon returning from the stepstones doesn’t mean that includes taking his daughter in marriage. Viserys was never down with that and the only way Rhaenyra and daemon even managed to tie the knot was because they secretly absconded and did it anyways behind Vizzy’s back while he was rotting to death and on powerful painkillers half the time which basically put him in a half aware state where he could have never consented anyways.
@@KainBooks fine, you think it's a rumor, but
1. Viserys believes it.
2. Viserys doesn't want Daemon to be king and
3. Why would Viserys think he would treat Rhaenyra much better than Rhea Rhoyce once they're married?
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 We saw in the show that he didn't have sex with her. Daemon(in separate timeline) could have made the request before their night out. Technically, Viserys went back on his word in the show. Also, Daemon had been gone for about four years.
Harwin is a much better catch than Daemon.
IDK, is the murderous temperament and all the cheating not worth having that extra dragon?
@@arnigeir1597 yes.
He is very handsome!
Daemon even without military and tactical experience has a dragon. Rhaenyra cannot afford not to have an extra dragon
@@bensonfang1868 it doesn't change the fact that Daemon is a lousy human being.
I think marrying Jace (Baelon) to Baela would go a long way in smoothing over tensions with the Velaryons even though she is a Targaryen. Or at least Baela and Luc.
Driftmark would not have passed to Vaemond. It would have passed Corys' grandchildren by his daughter Laena should Laenor had predeceased him without having any heirs of his own.
I think it would’ve gone to Baela not Vaemond. Best Vaemond could get is a match bt Baela and one of his sons
If Vaemond had sons, why wouldn't it go to him? This series culture is pretty sexist against women as shown thru Rhaenys losing out on the throne, and everything Rhaenyra had to endure. If Vaemond has sons and Corlys only son died or leaves without an heir, then it's logical that Vaemond sons would inherit drift mark instead.
@@l.n.3372 usually we see strict male succession for the throne but lords beneath them are seen inheriting thru women. Like Jeyne Arryn
@@IAmostSeeTheWorld but Targaryen plotlines show men favored over women. We don't necessarily have reason to believe that Velaryon would favor granddaughters (Baela and Rhaena) over boys (aka Vaemond son)
@@l.n.3372 the law of the Andals and of the First Men says that Sons come before Daughters, but daughters come before brothers. Rhaenyra lost the throne because Viserys broke tradition, didn't renew the vows of the lords after the birth of Aegon and was an idiot all around meanwhile Rhaenyra isolated herself in Dragonstone and was in general completely useless without her daddy.
Nice that you gave a better introduction then in the show
My problem is sir harwen was just a background extra until ep6 and then he's killed off. One would think they would give a better introduction to the father of rheanyras children
14:47 the biggest danger here is helaena/laenor match along with a match between aegon and one of Daemon/Laena's twins. This gives team green caraxes and meleys and basically makes sure that Rhaenyra will lose the war quickly
I think in this scenario there isn’t a dance however when Rhaenyra is crowned she’ll have to deal with a lot if assassination attempts and rebellions. The Velaryons can be brought back into the fold by marrying Laenor to Helena and Baelon to Baela
absolutely nothing would have change. in the canon it is clearly describe why this conflict started. This begin even before the velaryon boys were born. Alicent from the moment she gave birth to Aegon when she was 19 not 15 like in the show. she begin to build Aegon's path to the throne. she believed her son should be king because he was the first male born son of Viserys I. she wasnt friend with rhaenrya. never tried to be her friend or mother in fact she had her own court of ladies and lords that follow her with whom she will plot and this lords later became Aegon's green councilmen. she whore shame Rhaenrya from an early age. alicent already had poison her children, had gather a group of powerful lords to stan behind aegon and had already decided that she would usupoerd the throne if she must before the velaryon boys were born. before rhaenrya even married Leanor in 113AC as all her children but Daeron who was born on the following year along side jacaerys in 114 AC.
the issue was made by the greens. Otto who push viserys to take a second wife after Aemma was dead and he had already declare Rhaenrya his heir. to Alicent who since the moment her son was born she decided Rhaenrya needed to go because she was an obticle to her boy. she poison her children for 23 years. even when viserys kick otto out of KL she maintain her teaching. so much that is so obvious Aegon and Aemond have no respect or love for their older sister. as Aemond calls her a old whore. that is pure alicent and her whore shaming campaign.
The video is clearly about the show not about the book so it doesn't matter what anyone did differently in the books. Alicent and Rhaenyra are friends in the show and I think it makes the outcome so much more tragic because of it. George is clearly on board with the changes the show made
GRRM said himself that the book is an unreliable history book and that the show is what actually happened.
The show is not ‘what actually happened’ 😂 George has said since season 1 of Game Of Thrones that only the books are canon not any of the shows (obviously F&B being the exception to being 100% reliable due to it being history book)
The greens would still have tried for the throne true but without any evidence to help fuel the Hightower's rumors (lets be honest the Hightower's would have spread rumor weather they where true or not, Rhanenrya was just unlucky with the kids looks being a obvious weak point) and therefore the Draconian consequences for spreading those caught spreading those rumors several lords who in cannon flocked to Greens may choose Rhaenrya instead. It could have been a dramatic shift in support if nothing else.
I love that you do these.
I actually love these what if videos so much
I’m sorry but the line “he watches over his family with his son Luke by his side”. Almost made me tear up.
TL; DR At the end
Even if Rhaenyra marries Harwin, a war would've still likely happened, keep in mind Otto's plot to have Alicent married to Viserys started not long after Aemma was dead, the entire time he plotted to have Alicent give Viserys the male heir he wanted.
At the same time, the Velaryons would've been greatly insulted, keep in mind Rhaenyra marries Laenor because the crown *needs* to have the Velaryons back into the fold, they had already conducted a private war in the stepstones against the King's wishes and have the largest fleet in the realm, not to mention Velaryon lands are a stone's throw from King's Landing, having the Velaryons as enemies was a bad idea and Viserys knew this, the only way the Velaryons would be appeased would've been with a direct connection to the throne either via King Viserys or via his heir Rhaenyra, nothing else would suffice, if Viserys marries Alicent and Rhaenyra marries Harwin they would've been rebuffed twice and Corlys wouldn't have taken it.
By this point, the Velaryons are deeply disgruntled with the crown, while Alicent has already birthed Aegon, assuming Daemon still marries Laena, the Velaryons would've immediately sought to have Aegon and Aemond married to Baela and Rhaena, and the greens would've accepted because it would've greatly strengthened their position and Aegon's claim, potentially Rhaenyra could've offered her two kids as well (Baelon and Aereon) to the Velaryons.
Daemon and Caraxes probably would be the largest wildcard here, he clearly despises Otto because of his scheming and by extension holds no love or loyalty to the Hightowers, but then again assuming Rhaenyra's marriage to Harwin remains strong (heh) he wouldn't have much of a chance to get back into the line of succession.
Essentially, if team green secures Velaryon support, they would have House Lannister, House Velaryon, House Hightower and potentially House Baratheon all on their sides, as well as Meleys, Seasmoke, Vhagar, Sunfyre, Dreamfyre and Tessarion, while team black would only have Syrax, Caraxes (if Daemon doesn't just fuck off to Essos), Arrax and Vermax, the latter 2 being too small to present a serious threat to the green dragons.
Team black would have the support of the north since House Stark is oath-bound, a strong house no doubt, but not enough to even the odds, House Strong as well, but they're not nearly the most powerful house in the Riverlands, i don't see a scenario in which team black triumphs here, presumably the sowing of the seeds would've happened much earlier, which gives the blacks Vermithor and Silverwing, but their betrayal would also not take long since neither Ulf nor Hugh would be willing to die for a clearly losing side.
Sure, Rhaenyra birthing bastard after bastard did not help her cause with other causes, but even if she birthed trueborn kids, the lords would still refuse her for being a woman, presumably Rhaenyra might move her court to the North where she'll find more support in the Starks and Manderlys than stay in Dragonstone where she'd be sandwiched between the Velaryon fleet and the green Dragons.
TL;DR If Rhaenyra married Harwin Strong it probably would've backfired massively, and placed Rhaenyra in an even more precarious position.
As always, a very comprehensive video essay. Love you work, keep it up.
I know we’ll most likely never see Laenor (I’m sure I misspelled that) again, but it would be a cool payoff to see him return and make a big impact for the blacks in the war since war was what he had yearned for in all that time that he felt useless to Rhaenyra
What if Viserys marred Rhaenyra to Daemon & he married Laena
This would've probably been the best course of action while still keeping Rhaenyra as heir, it would've given Daemon the direct connection to the throne once Viserys passed while also empowering the Velaryons and given them a strong place in the royal family, perhaps some disputes could arise as a result of Rhaenyra being a woman but this would've kept the Hightowers from further attempting to sneak into the line of succession.
@@cntmntr3634 exactly
Knowing that Corlys, just like Otto, wanted his blood on the throne? Either he would've had to marry one of his and Laena's children to Rhaenyra and Daemon's heir so keep both parties happy, or risk the Dance happening anyway since if Laena had a son he would have just as much claim and the same precedent as Aegon did as the firstborn son of Viserys. No matter what, if Viserys remarries and has a son, that son would be a challenge to Rhaenyra, no matter who she is married to.
Ohh wow, I like this:
1. Harwin should be the one taking Rhaenyra’s maidenhood, not Criston Cole.
2. Criston Cole remain true to his vows and get concerned when the Princess see Harwin over and over again.
3. Criston confided to Alicent about his concern and Alicent push the matter further, but Rhaenyra is doing the “I’m not doing that that’s treason” talk.
3. Rhaenyra couldn’t trust Criston with her secret so she cast him aside and Criston become the Sworn Protector to Alicent.
4. Alicent genuinely support Rhaenyra as the heiress, and want to steer her into the right direction, but Rhaenyra is being impulsive and disregarded her. Alicent ask Rhaenyra to marry him and Rhaenyra say he’s not suitable, she need Valyrian Blood (due to the phropecy but undisclossed to Allicent). Allicent sees this as Rhaenyra’s hubris and grow to dislike her.
5. Rhaenyra ended up marrying Laenor, but keep Harwin around as lover. The disdain between Alicent and Rhaenyra cemented when Rhaenyra gave birth to Harwin’s son and have him proclaimed as her Heir. Criston and Allicent know this to be untrue and Criston being this righteous figure started to plant that Aegon is the true Heir. Alicent agree that she cannot allow such immoral people ruling Westeros and become the main plotter instead of a “tool”.
6. Harwin is killed by Larys who shares similar view, feeling that his brother brings shame to Strong name. His goal is never to enjoy Alicent’s foot but to actually have control over everyone. He’s just like Otto Hightower but with unknown (yet) motive. If he’s a seer then maybe he translated his vision as “only true Targaryen should be allowed to ascend the throne to protect everyone from whatever lays north”
With this storyline, I think it can make Green much more likeable but Black still shares relatability since what Green does to the Strong Brothers will still be a Scarlet Letter type of interaction, when they’re just decent innocent children and in coming times grow to be good ruler.
If rhaenyra and harwin married, the same story would've happened. Otto and Alicent were against rhaenyra before she even had kids. Otto wanted aegon named as heir as soon as aegon was passed hi infancy and alicent was against rhaenyra the minute ser Criston told her that he clapped rhaenyra's butt cheeks 😂. So no matter what the dance would've happened
I’ve never been this early, 😂 but I’m ready for this video !!
I like a scenario where they're still putting the same emphasis on the word strong when they say it for just no reason
15:34 a smarter choice would be to reach out to house velaryon and even his old nemesis Daemon for the hand of one of the twins for Aegon. Give Corlys and Rhaenys a "direct line to the iron throne" as Lyonel described in episode 2.
From the thumbnail he looks like a live version of Uncle Bruno from Encanto.
Call him Harwin "Breakbacks" Strong
This would've been a great match honestly, she would've become Lady Rhaenyra Strong and their sons would've been legitimate Lords. :) If they had a daughter, Lady Visenya Strong, that has a nice ring to it really. I hoipe someone writes a fanfic about this.
If she's the heir would't the kids last names be changed to Targaryen? like Viserys wanted
You should do a what if Jace married Helaena
It would be interesting if in this timeline, the Velaryons revolt with Daemon, who now feels slighted by Rhaenyra. It could be the Blacks vs the Blues. Caraxes + Meleys + Seasmoke will still be quite a match-up against the historical Blacks.
What if Rhaenyra married Daemon instead Laenor
Funny enough I probably would’ve been on team black if Rhaenyra actually had legitimate sons.
Rhaenrya illegitimate sons was always going to cause a civil war especially with Daemon and Rhaenrya children vs Strong bastards.
What if Aegon married Laena?
Gotta admit it though… When I was watching early S1, I was rooting for Allison to marry Vis cuz (1) the Laena was so young and (2) I thought Allison was so cute, sweet, prerty, and innocent. What it led to mortified me. Had 6 roommates in med school & it turned out that 1 was a vile sociopath. Alicent reminds me of her so much. Just a monster beyond ur wildest dreams. U trust them, let them in…then channel any control they gain into attempts to destroying u. Alicent went w/o protest into a life locked away pumping out heirs (remember Rhaenyra saying that?). She’s miserable but too weak to change anything. As Rhanys said, she merely sought a little window in her prison. And because Alicent is miserable, everyone else has to suffer w/ her. That’s why she started a civil war over her “friend” getting laid. She’s not woman enough to be her own person and go after ANY relief AT ALL. She didn’t even try making sex w/ Vis enjoyable for her, denying her dad from using her to whatever ends he desired even when it was to pimp her out, or to have any friendships except the 1 that was competitive & dysfunctional..
She JUMPED at the first hint of any perceived validation/encouragement/permissoion to go full blown c%nt. Anything to quiet her conscience so she could cut loose her selfishness, pride, and resentment.
Never questioned anything that even hinted at justifying her deepest desires. Her father told her that outrageous lie about how her almost lifelong best friend would end up slaughtering her family. And she WANTED to believe it and purposely ignored her better judgment (and common sense) so she could use it to assuage her guilt for usurping the throne. It’s such a joke…Rhaenyra was the named heir for decades & all the houses had pledged obeisance to that plan …even if that was her style, she didnt NEED to kill anyone. And Aegon Hightower didn’t want it anyway. She didn’t ask Rhaenyra about the tea that Larys claimed she was given when it could have easily just been a precaution demanded by Vis. Allicent herself gave it to the girl her son raped. But Alicent had been looking for some internal “reason” to become openly hostile and antagonist w/ Rhaenyra (and eventually supplant her as heir). She musta known Laenor was gay, but NEVER spoke w/ Rhaenyra re: whether or not there’d been successful attempts to produce heirs w/ the lawful husband. She WANTED them to be bastards, to steal what was intended for them & to make them interior to her kids. It musta gnawed at her how good those kids turned out compared to hers, and saying “maybe it’s their mother” to her brother just confirmed her insecurity over her crap mothering. And she was fool enough to take the random babblings of a dying man as permission to steal a throne for her scumbag kid that ste KNEW was unfit and couldn’t rule even his own person. Even though it was prefaced as a response to an earlier convo & question. There was no informing him who he was speaking to in case he was confused. There was no “ We did not talk about that,” “what do u mean by prince who is promised,” or “are u sure ur talking to the right person?” There was no thought given to the fact they’d been putting him in an opiate stupor so that controlling everything fell to them. Alicent regrets none of these missed opportunities to sort out confusion and communicate w/ ppl directly. And it wasn’t idiocy or naivety. Her shrewdness and ability to scheme has been shown countless times. And there’s multiple convos between her & Otto where they speak blatantly about how they’re playing at a game, scheming, plotting, and actively working at installing her son & other betrayals. Anyone who calls her decent or says she’s just confused or a victim has real life issues judging people’s character, motives, and behavior.
The time & effort that shoulda gone into parenting her little demon boys was spent attacking Rhaenyra. She had no mastery over her emotions & her jealousy and spite drove her into the arms & counsel of bad men. It’s why she displayed her feet to a murderous pervert while he pleasured himself. It’s why she allowed her evil father, who’d rather the realm burn than settle for being in the top 0.001 percentile of it.
This would have been a great change. Really only saying that because Ser Harwin was gorgeous! And Rhaenyra would’ve been much happier - he seemed to demonstrate a lot of positive qualities as a father and partner, even in the short time we saw him ❤
The king even asked Lionel if he would also want Rhanerya to marry the break bones
I wish they should rhaenyra and harwin more of them
What if Harwin Strong survived the fire?
The war still happen Because the whole point of the war is put a member of house Hightower in the throne, while young for house tower could influence them, and guide them to become Lord who no longer have values of Valeria
He was strong in every way. His seed was also stronger than generations of pale-haired Targaryens.
I think you're missing the point, the parentage of her children is just the low hanging fruit. They'll always find a reason to hate her and try to get Aegon on the throne.
The flaw in this is that the tension between Valeriyon and Targaryen would have flared.
I can also see her still marrying off at least one of her sons to Damon’s daughters so as to re-strengthen her ties with House Velaryon
If Viserys ever suggested to Rhaenyra that she should marry Harwin Strong, Rhaenyra would instantly hate Harwin and wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole lol.
She should’ve married Daemond from the start. It would’ve reinforced her legitimacy.
In this timeline, if harwindied, that would be much more. Consequences and there was and the original timeline
please repeat this sentence in a way that one can actually understand what you wanted to say
Peak fangirl Rhaenyra would still name her daughter Visenya.
She could have if she hadn't chosen the political way. Even viserys gave her the permission
because none of these stories are meant to have happy endings. it doesn't matter who marries who or who dies. nobody is allow to be happy in the JRR Martin universe.
The big changes have nothing to do with the bastardry. Nothing at all. The real potential change is Lyonel staying on as Hand of the King and that is a game changer.
Various alliances will play out differently potentially. Getting the Valaryons inside is easy enough by offering Luke to one of Daemons daughters with Laena.
No Otto means the green council coup plays out very differently. If the hand of the king is in her side then she is in a very strong position.
Also, what impact on Cole. If she never uses him as a living dildo then he probably stays as one of her biggest allies giving her more friends in the Kingsguard.
Those are the big changes.
Literally if she would’ve made the correct decisions, the whole dance would have been avoided. My allegiance is to queen rhae, but I can’t help but realize that if she had made different choices and spoke up at the right times, the entire dance could’ve been avoided because there would be no argument to her claiming the throne.
Also wtf… viserys should’ve just let daemon marry her.
Do you think in this scenario there would still be a marriage deal between two sons of Rhaenyra and two daughters of Lena Velaryon?
Maybe, maybe not. The deal wouldn’t be the same. Once again, her betrothal of Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena in canon was a cry for help to Rhaenys because she knew the greens would most likely supplant Luke for Vaemond. By getting her support she could feel a bit more secure but in this timeline the petition never happens and assuming she isn’t going through I crisis that could put her family in danger she may or may not seek a marriage between families. But let’s say she does for some reason. Like I mentioned earlier the deal would not be the same. Baela and Baelon(Jace in this au) would be king and Queen if things go smoothly, but Rhaena and Aerion(Luke in this au) will not be lord and lady of driftmark. They would be lord and lady of Harrenhall. The appeal of the marriage pact in canon would be that both her granddaughters would sit at the head of the two most powerful houses in Westeros and House Strong is not one of them. While they are a respected house, even with the addition of dragons through Rhaenyra and her sons they are not as powerful as the Velaryons. They don’t have their wealth, or their ships. Not to mention Harrenhall is thought be cursed so Rhaenys may not want to tempt fate by wedding one of her granddaughters to Luke especially after the way her kids died.
Okay, I am very confused on why everyone think Vemond superseeds Leana and her children. Westeros follows Male Preference Primgeniture. Vemond comes after Leana and her daughters.
What he did in the show was a bs powergrab that Otto and Alcient were in on. Hence why Rhaenys was there to originally peition for herself and Baela, who would be the rightful heir to driftmark.
There have been multiple female rulers of seats in the 7 kingdoms.
It's simply the Targaryens who keep screwing up basic succession laws. All because Jaehaerys was really insecure about his own claim to the thrown (cause he stole it from his niece Aerea) so he disinherited his granddaughter, the lawful hier to the throne, for her uncle, then did it again, for Viserys.
We may envy the royalty for their power and riches and status but at least we can marry out of love
The only way to prevent the Dance would have been to marry Ser Gwayne Hightower to Rhaenyra. Otto Hightower would not put Aegon in front of his own son. The other option was to make Rhaenyra heir presumptive only.
Not necessarily. Rhaenyra had her own agency but Otto wanted to mold Aegon and place him on the throne. Even if Otto's son married Rhaenyra, he would only be prince consort to the queen. But Aegon would be king outright and thus the highest in the land. That's more appealing to Otto.
I would’ve loved this 😩
Same :)
if Rhaenyra married Harwin , the dance would still happen because Otto and Alicient would still wanna Aegon on the throne. At this time Rhaenyra wouldn’t have support from Velaryon since Corlys was ambiguous. Corlys only support Rhaenyra because his kin will get the throne eventually. He would support Aegon because Alicient could purposed marry between Helena and Laenor to tie the support. Since Otto already got sent away. Corlys might take position as hand of the king. Daemon can choose either way he won’t get what he wants and 100% black will loose. Green will have 6 Dragons and black have 4 and untamed dragons
02:04 he looks at young Rhaenyra like a creep,like she is a child old man
Idiot
Ser Crispin the Simp, I refuse to call him otherwise
I think in this timeline Rhaena would have Vhaghar as well. The greens would be fudged.
That would’ve been a great opportunity for how strong to rebuild the harenhal castle as well as the perfect opportunity for how strong to become more paramount of the Riverlands
It would’ve been how strong versus hot house high tower. They still would’ve been a war because well those Lord did not want a woman for a queen, but they would not be able to use that bastardized excuse to go to war.
Aemond may never get Vhagar, might been claimed by the youngest daughter (she would have a chance then) or if so, Luke and Jace might defend thier uncle on his claim, Aemond may never lose the eye. Jace becomes king (arguable his temperament he might be a great king.) The queen that never was, would back Raenyra claim. because it's the true claim daemon would have stay in Pentos to guard the shores. Never having children with the queen. all the dragons will be on her side
ANd in 170 ish years when the long night happens, the prince was promised never was born and white walkers take over, because the events that should have set the stage never happened dooming the realm to darkness.
Basically if events didn't happen this way in HotD then GOT will never happen. it is her mistakes and victories that are important to the story.
the hair always bothered me b/c Alicent had dark hair but her children came out with white/silver hair. Same with Aegon's bastards in King's Landing.
It wouldn't have necessarily been as politically advantageous as Laenor, but they both would've been happy and her sons would've been legitimate.
on ser harwin till the city walls peel off😩🤌✨
If she has any sense she would have taken a blond haired lover.
What if she and the white stag had been witnessed
I think larys will help Rhaenyra because its in his best interest
It won't have mattered because Otto Hightower
she probably wouldnt get the idea of bastard riders
Rhaenyra just wants to break rules, so she's just gonna cheat on Harwin nonetheless
How would vaemon be the heir if coryls dies 🤔. I thought the 2nd sons only becomes heir if oldest doesn't have any heirs of their own. In this case coryls has laenor so if coryls dies then laenor would rule driftmark.
The church of the seven as well as house, Hightower, and the rest of the Lords of the seven kingdom do not appreciate how Targaryen association with magic in Valeria customs, and the first share common ancestor so they have similar custom they just different tribes of the same people Valeria is different. The royal family of different custom only is appreciated the robber of Baratheon sits on the throne. Because they realize, even though he has similar customs, he does make a ruler, and then the peace the house Targaryen gave the kingdom.
what if Rhaenyra went to rooks rest with Rhaenys
If only Viserys didn’t get married again…he already had an heir with Rhaenyra and if she died, there was Daemon. There was no need for him to keep having children, plus Rhaenyra was 14 when the series started so she was of marriageable age (In GOT standards of course) He could’ve married her off and the problem of lack of more successors solved when she had children🤡
Viserrys was kinda dumb tbh
Those children being bastard would not have been a problem if she was a male Tarian, because he would be a capable warrior and would’ve been able to destroy any Lord that challenged their decision because even though those children were bastard, since she was a member of the royal family it shouldn’t have matter while in the song of fire those bastards of house Lannister do not have Royal blood that’s why that was an issue what house tower uses to try to justify the treason it’s not a real problem. The real problem is the Royal family still practice their foreign customs and the laws of the kingdom cannot do nothing about it since the royal family has dragons if the church ,maester , & high Tower succeeded with their Deas, Carrie, and royal bloodline. They could easily fix that as the show shows without the dragons they were forced to assimilate their customs, more often than not.
The dance of dragons was always going to happen. All this would mean is the blacks would go into the war with a much better hand.
See, in this what if I can be Team Black.
What if viserys danys brother lol was good
Probably everything goes the same way
What if Rhaenyra had been married to criston cole 🥰🥰🥰 please please I want to know.
that wouldn't be possible, as he swore an oath to never marry. That could only happen if she had renounced her claim and probably her family as a whole and went with him to Essos.
@TheEmpyreanSpeaks A question: Harwin was a knight so.....he's not suppose to copulate anyone?????
what would happen? i would hope some kind of tragedy bc we need a certain line to be born in order for the prince that was promised to be born… Arya Stark 🙄
Ok so first, thats not how that works. Rhaenyra is married, the children are born out of wedlock so they will remain bastards a royal decree would not give them what they desire, honor nor do their plain features help any over Alicent's children.
Viserys named Rhaenyra heir and nobody cares😂😂😂 there is nothing Visery can do Rhaenyra has damged her reputation beyond repair. Instead of gaslighting Laenor she should have understood the pain she would put her children through and herself. But she doesn't she's irresponsible and reckless and is simply not fit.
Lyonel is honorable I know its easy just to be like "do whay you wanna do bro" but you have to understand and respect the aspects of the story. Lyonel would rather see his son go to the wall than live with the reality of what his son has done which is take all of his father's hardwork and throw it in the trash over some 😺😂
The marriage with Laenor would be broken and Corlys would look for reassurance. Obviously being burned twice he will go Essos as he meant to and no doubt finish carving out his own kingdom. Or more than likely he will turn to Alicent's side. Of course Daemon won't give up his daughters but there are two children Corlys can use, Addam and Alyn who would assuredly have children soonee rather than later.
Then Laenor would not be the father
duhhh
I mean he isnt the father in the original timeline (if this comment was supposed to be sarcasm ignore my comment)
And if this happens the dance of dragons probably never happens and the story sucks
The dance happens regardless of who she marries, book or show. originally it was written that Rhaenyra marries a Strong and has legitimate children but dance happens anyway and in the show Otto himself already says it doesn’t matter if she was Jaehaerys born again since she’s a woman. End of the day aside from the fact George needed the dance to happen for plot reasons it was always gonna happen because she’s a woman
Uniting the families and their claims *is* a massive political advantage though. It cuts off a large chunk of the political purpose behind what the greens wanted in the Dance