You don’t hate the layers…
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Don't hate the layer, hate the game... Wait-
Hold up...
Player hater 😂
Thank the layers that my Clone can actually see past a creature enchanted with Darksteel Mutation.
Absolutely game changing.
How do you mean? Wouldn't the Clone become an artifact creature 0/1 with indestructible?
@@keepingitcasualmtgI'm assuming the clone target has the aura and not the clone itself, so it will work.
Of course if the clone has the aura it will be a little metal bug.
Actually that brings my random question of the day:
With modified clone effects such as Lazav the Multifarious, are the modifications applied in layer 1, or another layer?
This might matter if I use Lazav to copy a Dryad Arbor and my opponent then plays a Blood Moon. Would Lazav Mountain still have his copy ability?
@@keepingitcasualmtgI had my clone enter as a copy of creature that’s enchanted with Darksteel Mutation.
My clone actually becomes a copy of the creature despite the Darksteel Mutation.
@@YetAnotherScrub He would not have his ability, but he would still remain a 1/1 creature. He'd be able to tap for red though!
95% of the time layers work as expected, the other 5% are judge exam questions
Haha I say 99% but maybe 95% is more accurate it's only certain number of a card interactions that exist in a game of magic that folks run into problems
Knowing and using the layer system correctly makes you so much of a better player. Its wild.
How to learn
It helps with SOOOO much
@@keepingitcasualmtg slacker
@@capealioin the Comprehensive Rules, section 613 about Interaction of Continuous Effects covers them.
To summarize here, whenever you are asking about the properties of a game object (mostly permanents but it can apply to spells and cards in other zones sometimes too), the game applies changes to those effects based on what type of change it is.
The 7 categories of changes are each assigned a layer and they are applied starting with 1 and ending with 7.
1. Copy effects (like Clone)
2. Control changing effects (like Mind Control)
3. Text changing effects (like Purelace or Trait Doctoring)
4. Type changing effects (like Blood Moon or Living Lands)
5. Color changing effects (like Darkest Hour)
6. Ability granting or removing effects (like Fervor or Dress Down)
7. Effects that alter power and toughness. This one has a few sub layers to order it. Defining p/t (Maro) -> setting base p/t (Godhead of Awe) -> modifying p/t (+1/+1 counters, Giant Growth) -> swapping p/t (twisted image).
If 2 effects apply on the same layer, you usually use timestamps (when it first started to apply) to determine the order.
If one changes the existence, of another, it what it does, or what it applies to, the former will apply first.
There are also plenty of videos out there that go more into depth. Here's one.
th-cam.com/video/6oIAbrPi3Mo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=sMR6X9D3adNBlScO
Thank you for talking about this.
Imagine going with timestamps for everything, what a nightmare
Even just Clone + Glorious Anthem would be so weird...
Someone always says they could make the rules better. But their suggestions never actually work or would insanely break the game in ways they weren't considering.
The layers are a masterstroke of game design. It's just such an impossible task to have it be intuitive 100% of the time in such a vast game.
I think the folks who do their job on the rules team know what they're doing for the most part. The CR is 30+ years of work and refinement that has gotten us to the point that we have today
Buddha? Jesus? I did not expect deep thoughts in my rules lawyering. Top notch content sir.
😆😆 Thanks
You should make series of long videos where you explain all the rules. So the viewer can be a light judge.
That would be a looooooong video
Don't hate the laya, hate the play
Haha something like that
I do hate the layer system, but only because it makes my brain hurt to remember the perfect order for those niche cases.
Its an amazing system but it makes me think too hard when weird interactions happen, AND THOSE ARE THE BEST INTERACTIONS
that's fair, practicing those often does help it to stick, but it does take some getting used to to remember it. I like to think of the acronym CCTTCAP
Copy
Control
Text
Type
Color
Abilities
Power/Tougness
It's not the pretties acronym but it kinda helps me
Fair. I'm not sure you can make a system that consistently handles every niche interaction without some amount of brain hurting though.
Personally, rather than remember the specific order, I try too think about why each layer is where it is.
Copy effects apply first.
Control changing effects need to apply before things that say "creatures you control..."
Text changing effects need to happen before color changing and type changing ones, since they often modify those (think Purelace, Trait Doctoring, or New Blood)
The only example I can think of for type changing happening before color changing is Darkest Hour which makes creatures black.
Ability adding effects often care about a thing's color or type (Kudo only affects creatures) so they need to be after those.
Power and toughness applies last so Lord of Atlantis works with Arcane Adaptation.
spitting the truth
Remember, reading the card explains the need to read a ton of rulings to use it properly
I think it's better than Yugioh where it actually is "reading the card explains the card unless you run into another card that contradicts it"
@@keepingitcasualmtg nah, I prefer to compare it to the Spider-Man collectible cards, where it actually is "reading the card contradicts the common sense and lore, but explains the card"
@@keepingitcasualmtg this is false tho
I'm a lapsed very old timer - my first "good" deck had two sol rings and a mind twist. And because I've never been a good player, it also had carrion ants. What can I say?
The issue with a game like Magic is that by design it makes cards that deliberately change the way the rules work and cards play. Even something as stupid as a Deathlace does it - right from the very start.
Then they needed to make even more rules to account for the cards that bent/broke the rules. Most of the time it's not a big deal - then you get into a huge argument on whether Opalescence or Humility apply.
Yes very true not only are they constantly designing new cards that may push the rules, but they had to make a system that made the wording on old cards work! I think it's very impressive with the work they've done to be able to pull it mostly off
Question: if i pay the Ward cost on Maha, Its Feathers Night, and cast Kenriths Transformation on it, it loses Flying, Trample, and Ward; but continues to give opponents creatures base toughness 1?
No, the Maha would stop setting creatures toughness to 1. Losing abilities applies before setting P/T.
Kudo is special, in that it also performs a type change, which happens before ability change layer, so keeps applying later through the ability loss layer.
@@GrabnarDaCzar Ah, okay, that's where I was getting confused. Thanks for the clarification.
keep up the great content
I’ll keep going!
The only rule I just find annoying is that tapped and attacking is not "attacking" so things like ghostly prison useless against Caesar decks. It's tapped and you're declaring where they go so "they aren't being declared as attackers." So this just blows my mind thinking about it.
Love your content ❤️
It's because of the way the rules defines "attacks" which means being declared as an attacker. I can understand why they would define it that way for space reasons, but I know it's confusing for new folks some times
You don't have to pass a citizenship test for the country you are born in. Think of it like that.
@@keepingitcasualmtg Right!?!? It's so confusing.
This happens whenever someone tries to strip my Magus of the Moon of its text, they complain saying, "I REMOVED THE ABILITY, WHY DOES IT STILL HAVE THE BLOOD MOON EFFECT!?", and I have to counter them by showing them the rule that essentially states "The ONLY ways to stop Magus of the Moon from being a Blood moon is to get it off the table or turn it face down" since Magus is such a weird card
There's a few more ways, turn it into something else on the same layer or layer before. Song of the Dryad or True Polymorph can stop the effects
When I was 13 I got into a big accident with my grandmother on the way driving to the grocery store. I have never gotten my license. I hate driving. I hate other drivers. I hate the road. I hate cars. Sorry to burst the bubble:/
Sorry that happened to you
Can you or anyone in the comments explain what would be wrong with having these types of effects refer to timestamp rather than whether or not an effect in an earlier layer was applied? Or even just remove the part that says "even if the effect that applies that change is removed" and let removing that effect take it out of the layers? What would that break?
Let's take a look at the Kudo and Dress Down as an example. Kudo was on the field first Dress Down comes down has the latest timestamp so now everything currently has no abilities. Now let's play Godhead of Steel. It now has the latest timestamp and makes everything a 1/1.
Timestamps makes players have to start tracking and keeping note what came in before something or after something and in a format like Commander where interactions fly left and right it might be confusing to remember did this come in before this? Did we flicker something at some point? The layers allow for you to be able to know the results at any point of the game
@@keepingitcasualmtg Yeah some other commenters chimed in on that for me as well and it makes perfect sense. Thank you! That explains timestamps. But why wont simply removing the clause that specifies effects that exist in earlier layers still apply in all layers even if removed work? You'd still check actively and see it's been removed, go back and yank it from other layers. To me that seems like it'd be fine, but I'm sure there's some interaction I'm missing. If it's there like that I assume there's a purpose.
I kind of don't like that you used a bunch of examples the game behaving intuitively (vampires get +1/+1, this creature is suddenly a vampire so it gets +1/+1. I could explain this to someone who has never played mtg and it would make sense to them) to defend the part of the system that makes the game behave in a way where cards no longer do what they say they do (Creature's ability turns all nonbasics into mountains, play something that gives that creature no abilities, nonbasics are still all mountains). While not everything is immediately intuitive in magic, layers working the way they do go beyond the territory of being "not immediately intuitive" and go straight into being anti-player. Magus not turning off when its abilities are removed only serves rules lawyers, not anyone who wants the game to be understandable and approachable.
Also the analogy doesn't work because if I was to get into an accident I *would*, in fact, think about how our car-driven society leads to so much pointless injury and death and it would further cement my belief that public transport is way more intuitive and better for societal health.
Layers are by far the worst thing I have to explain to newer players because everything else can be explained in a way that follows a logic while explaining layers sounds like I'm a bully older sibling making up rules as we play so that I win
Here's something to understand. Magus not turning off abilities is one interaction of the layers that is unintuitive, 99% of all interaction of the layers IS intuitive. That was the whole point of the video, that is why I started with when the layers is working intuitively because majority of the time it makes sense, and most of us don't even realize it.
That is why we don't need to explain it to a newer player, because it just makes sense. You don't need to explain Giant Growth on a creature pumps it because of layer 7c. They don't need to know that off the bat.
Are there interactions that don't make intuitive sense? Yes absolutely, but that isn't because there is something wrong with the layers. I guarantee you if it wasn't a layer system and something else you will still find an interaction that doesn't make intuitive sense, because of the sheer number of different types of cards and effects that exist in the game you're almost guaranteed to have weird things happen.
And as far as saying that you *would* start thinking about car-driven society leads to injury and death. Then that is the EXACT point I am making. Up until that point, you were okay with driving, but the one time it didn't work out you started blaming the system. Otherwise why didn't you just take the public transport in the first place?
And yes I agree with you layers are absolutely a terrible thing to explain to a newer player, that's why we don't do it. Cause the game is already designed to make sense of most interactions. Once they run into a scenario where the layers is weird then I think that's a good introduction to the deeper aspects of the rule.
@@keepingitcasualmtg This cleared up any remaining confusion I had after watching the short 👍
The Magus interaction might not make sense at first, but I truly don't think there is a better way to design the rules.
If we decide that ability removing effects happen before type changing effects, we run into other weird interactions. When reversed, having a Living Lands and a Dress Down in play would lead to lands still having so their abilities. A creature enchanted with Swift Configuration would lose all of it's abilities.
We could just say that everything is applied in timestamp order, but that fundamentally changes many aspects of the game. Clone effects and p/t setting effects will remove the buffs from auras and counters already on a creature. Mind control effects will let the creature keep the buffs from anthems already controlled by a stolen creature's previous controller while ignoring the same types of effects that it's new controller has.
We could patch interactions over the current system that don't make sense to some players, but that leads to a patchwork of hard to find rules that make it so much harder to find the correct answer compared to the current system. It also leads to arguments over what is "unintuitive" and causes it's own unintuitive issues due to inconsistent rulings.
While plenty of people complain about layers, it's really not easy to find an alternative. Unintuitive rulings are unavoidable with as many weird cards as MTG has printed, but the rules are carefully designed to make sure it all works.
@@seandun7083 You gave some geeat examples against the timestamp alternative that I was really looking to hear about. What Im wondering is, what are the examples against simply allowing removal of the ability that has effects in earlier layers to remove those effects as well, if applicable? Basically inverting the line protecting these interactions from saying "even if the ability causing those changes is removed" to "Unless the abiliry causing those changes is removed".
Then when you reach the layer of removing abilities, look back at all things those abilities did and remove them.
Nah layers suck😅
😆😆 When they don't make sense they can