'Doom:' A Classic Game Postmortem
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ค. 2016
- In this 2011 talk Doom's John Romero and Tom Hall give a post-mortem on the making of the classic first-person shooter, touching on the inspiration, design decisions, and challenges along the way.
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"if you ever invent anything, just go get a patent on it"
*John Carmack has left the chat*
Ywnbaw
Watching the interaction between these two people give a better sense of gravity during their time at ID when Romero was under pressure to fire Tom. It's nice despite the past turmoil they gave this presentation and get a sense of their friendship.
I guess I just became jaded, but none of the new games excite me like Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM and Quake did. Does anyone remember Spear of Destiny? Ha! At age 75 I'm still gaming away, but it just ain't the same. It's fun though. ;.)
The excitement back then was due to the fact that it was BRAND NEW, there was nothing else like it. I could not get enough of Wolfenstien 3D, but going back now it is almost unplayable in it's simplicity.
I think we got a sense of what we were experiencing was the future, more so than anything else since.
Right on! I remember breaking out in a sweat when the first blue "Offizier" killed me with a machine gun. When I look at that now it makes me laugh. I actually had a beta test version of W3D that was really a mess, but I was absolutely fascinated with it. As you said, there had been nothing like it before.
+Bruce Boscheck - Can I ask what games you're enjoying these days?
Well, at this time I'm looking for something new. DOOM (the latest version) didn't really excite me and I am on level 149 of Fallout 4 (how many more raiders can I kill with my bare hands?). I'm not particularly fond of "historical" settings. I had a good romp with Halo, but since I only play on the PC that's a dead end. I'm tired of the COD stuff, too. I rather like science-fiction based games. Any suggestions?
Have you played all the DLC for Fall Out 4? I would recommend starting a new character before you hit 100+ levels as well, it's much more challenging and fun, especially if you do it on survival.
Have you played the Deus Ex games? They are pretty solid, with some good story telling in the SciFi genre, and you can find the first one (of the new Deus Ex games, I assume you've played the original) on sale on Steam for around $7 quite often.
I'm playing a future based game right now called Transistor, and I highly recommend it, you can find it on sale on Steam all the time, and it's a really good game with a great character and story.
I don't know if you played the new Doom, but I have to recommend you give it a chance, it's pretty freaking fun.
Legend has it that programmer is still sitting in a basement working on an SNES port of Wolfenstein 3D.
right? has there really not been any follow up on what even came of that guy?
@@Gebora Very late response, but: according to "Masters of Doom" the programmer in question was Rebecca Heineman, who was already working on the Mac port for Interplay and offered her services to id for the SNES port. It turned out this was a no-no since her contract with Interplay gave them ownership of anything she did, so her work on the SNES port had to be scrapped. Apparently some of her sound driver code did end up in the released version, though. Heineman subsequently left Interplay to set up a new company, which was somewhat ironically contracted by Interplay to do the 3DO port.
John gave this post-mortem at my school just this past year. It was really awesome.
What school?
wow
I'm sure you're aware of how lucky you are! What a great school!
They act exactly as described on Masters of Doom, i can picture now those alien noises in the office haha
I would kill for an Anachronox reboot. That game's writing and atmosphere was amazing.
A remastered version would be something to begin with as well. ;D
I got Anavhronox on Steam last year for like a buck on sale. It 100% feels like I just stole from the guy
I hope you never kill anyone for a video game. :)
John Romero and Tom Hall sound like the same person.
The in game UI ended up at the bottom of the screen because there is a VGA register that can jump to the beginning of video ram after a particular scan line is reached. It means the HUD isn't page flipped like the rest of the screen, has to be updated during vertical retrace.
I can't stop watching this Classic Game Post-Mortem series! So awesome!
John's great, but I miss the days when he wanted to make me his bitch.
Its not that you miss(ed) the days, its just that he never could make you his bitch. Daikatana? No.
Even Romero regrets how the game was marketed.
"But John, I don't _wanna_ Suck It Down™!"
"the sanest place is behind a trigger" So true
needs more John Carmack. he was the heart of what made Doom a groundbreaking game
I get the feeling John Carmack was indeed the genius who made some groundbreaking tech, but Tom Hall and John Romero were the "heart" of Doom, i.e they gave the game personality and made it fun to play.
@@BdR76 no
Carmack actually has something to do, So Romero always shows up for the old ID presentations as second best
@@PauloConstantino167 Yes.
Doom 3 is what you get when you don't have Hall and Romero pishing for heart. It's a game that is tech-centric, not game-centric.
@@Cenot4ph Romero runs his own game studio.
Need another one of these with Carmack. Im more interested in the actual programming / technology than the level design.
The best thing about Doom was the sound.
As much ridiculous trivia as I already knew about Doom, I learned quite a bit from this video. Thanks so much for posting!
These two guys are the literal godfather of modern gaming
7:00 "Incredible movie_like cinematic sequences".... I wonder what they had in mind but I'm glad they went for skippable texts !
I want to press 'like' but it's cooler to leave it on 486 likes for now.
chicken livers you can come like the video now
Yeah come and like the video now
Kinda depressing how a lot of these iconic games all seem to have that quality of "it was lightning in a bottle" of having super-talented and brilliant people sort of trial and error their way to something amazing in a few years together. I could be mistaken, but it doesn't seem like that is something that can be seen anymore.
Sentinel87 aseg Yes and no? The smashing success indie game is alive and well- Minecraft and stardew valley are both contemporary examples, but creating a monumental gaming engine or anything in a competitive mainstream genre certainly requires a lot of investment.
Sentinel87 aseg ypu have to remember this is all realively new at that point...now it is not.
That's just how it is with emerging makets.. they get polished and regulated eventually and often the most innovation is in the growing stages when there's less rules. In this context conservative politics are the winner
I don't think it has as much to do with regulation and such. The *technology* has become more complicated. The folks at Id Software dedicated pretty much their entire lives to pushing the envelope, during a time where computers weren't as abstract or complex. It takes far more work -- usually "Triple-A" quality -- to make a game that's even remotely technically impressive, anymore. That's not a result of regulations as much as it is a result of the gaming industry's success carrying technology beyond what small teams can accomplish.
The cost of producing what is considered a modern game is staggering now a days. If you want to make a game in a small team then you have to concept in such a way that you can fit with your production ability. Because of that there isn't much play around when deviating from traditional concepts in newer games as their teams approach 100s-1000s of people.
what's the song that plays at the intro?
Rise of the Triads was awesome!
Awesome!
DID anyone play the Alien Mod for Doom, that was pretty damn good
Yeah, it was awesome.
DOOM is immortal, eternal.
wait a second... "Doom Eternal"... that sounds like a cool sequel!
It feels like many people don't know what 'post-mortem' actually means!
Amazing!
Wow do you guys have anymore pictures of Madison, Wisconsin back in those days? When I was a kid my family moved me up from Tinley Park, Illinois in Chicago up to Madison, Wisconsin around 1990 or 1991 and I was just before 1st grade then. I remember Madison looking like that back in those days and I am still living here in 2017 all these years later..
I have that exact calculator, I've had it since high school in the late 80's and early 90's. Weird.
If this game is post mortem, than why is it the game I an still playing to this day. Making up my own challenges, like shotgun and fists only, or pistols and plasma rifle only which is a lot harder then it sound ESPECIALLY on ULTRA VIOLNECE
40:00 Rise of the Triad would worth its own post-mortem talk, it was such a unique game :) I think its vibe differed significantly from Wolfenstein's
I love it how these guys are such nerds! Legends!!!!!
28:00 this tech is also popular in many tiling window managers, e.g. for Linux.
And it still seems obvious that we want to go through games with friends...
Yet, co-op seems to have been cut out of everything. And when there is co-op, it's not a true co-op of the campaign, or you can't do it over LAN, you have to use the internet to do it... and they can't sort all the problems out to make that work correctly... yeah, I'm looking at you, Far Cry..
This this a THOUSAND TIMES this! I'm not normally a "this is where it all went wrong" kind of guy (because 'I never look back darling, it distracts from the now') but competitive becoming *the* default form of multiplayer in games was easily one of the worst things to happen to the medium, right up there with the pursuit of graphics over gameplay.
"One Minute Left" *LONGEST, RAMBLING FUCKING QUESTION*
Topical!
Amazing. Thanks for uploading :)
Thumbnail: Aaron Paul doesn't like you looking at his computer screen.
While i missed out on anything PC most my life since never had one nor internet aswell. I finally got around to play doom 1 and 2 and while i played many good ones on different consoles over the years i gotta say doom become one my favorite. Also helps tremendously that amazing people all over the years made mods/wads. I do like playing games where developers created something amazing but my most important thing i look for a game is how the devs have it with modders and how lively the community is. Mod support is one the most important feature nowadays in my opinion especially when most triple a side feels samey or boring most the time.
"We couldn't even go outside anymore, we had to kinda stay inside."
Hits different.
A DOOM game that is all one giant level would be awesome, like a darker and more violent 1st person metroid!
I think there is a mod that did this
what was the first game to release like a patch?
The guys who did the Columbine shooting were so pleased that they had gotten a shotgun that was just like the one in doom. If only they knew, they were going out of their way to imitate a toys r us toy.
I recognize the level in the alpha but man that framerate!
I think it was just the PPT software. PPT's are TERRIBLE for showing vids lol
layer height maps with rgb color are a super compact image compressible way to make large maps, like delta force/2. same for sphere bump mapped objects, rgb-h 32-bit values per vertex. and toys are us. the ui narrow thingy is not nice. but not for ray tracing, the acceleration traversal structure is DDA or something else.
8:17
So basically he wanted to make System Shock.
Or Strife..
Post mortem ? Doom is more alive than Destiny or Call of Duty
still play Doom and Doom 2 to this day, still a lot of fun coming home from a stressful day, run the game (in GZDoom) and immediatly start blasting demons. No cutscenes, tutorial levels, slow build up... just instant fun.
***** I have Duke Nukem 3D too, also quite fun. But I still prefer Doom, for no particular reason...
Duke nukem kind of died after 3d. the rest of them sucked after that, which is a shame. Maybe one day we'll get a decent reboot?
I was gonna say the same thing. "Post-mortem" seriously offends my semantic sensibilities.
even if the recent doom didn't come out, its still a better game than any fps in the last 15 years easily.
In retrospect, it appears that Tom Hall should've been given a design credit but he wasn't. His name was a struck from the alpha/beta credits. That's how things were done in those days...
Those days? It's still done.
@@WalkerRileyMC Well that's unfortunate. I know it was common in the early days but I kind of assumed we'd moved past that.
so in this sense could you just fire the whole team before launch and take 100%
i just came here to see those beautifull locks...
Hmm. Didn't know they were responsible for BSPs.
I would have thought their presentation would not have been running off a mac that is slower than a 386.
And nothing about the BFG.
Holy shit Anachronox! David Bowie is in that
What?? They actually tested games before release back in the days???? Maybe someone could give EA a hint on that?
Games are many orders of magnitude more complex these days. NES era games were made artificially long, because they were just insanely difficult, but basic in comparison.
Gamedevelopment has become absolutely sluggish because they can roll out patches today without a problem. The money they make is magnitudes more but they don't hire quality/quantity wise enough ppl to get it done correctly.
CrashPilot1000 That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
In my city EA is recruiting playtesters. Not just them, but also Ubisoft. The thing is, the payment is kinda minimal wage, not too many people come storming in.
Silly statement
what do they mean at the end uploaded to the FTP server? So... they let people just pirate their game?
It's shareware. You download the first episode for free, you register for a fee and you get the rest of the game.
And, might I add, when you bought a game back then, that was it. No DLC :-) Everything was in there, from start.
True dat. Pros and cons of everything, and I must admit graphics are better today :-)
On the flipside, pre-order culture and 'exclusive' content that reels gullible folks into shitty, unfinished or poorly-optimized messes of games.
Pick your poison, I guess.
blizzard's battlechests were god.
Considering how great Doom was, I bet they would have kicked an Alien game out of the park regardless of having less creative control.
I for one am glad they prized their own intelectual property, and creative control, over someone elses, even a blockbuster movie.
saw this at my school. i was in the presence of this god LDKANofbf;OwhoDaOF
good thing they rereleased it in 2020, it even came with a new mini game build around it, think it was named doom eternal or something
"Post mortem" means "after death." Unlike the new Assassin's Creed, Doom is not dead.
PS1 port is really the best.
ROTT was not wolfenstein 1.5. ROTT was AWESOME
All those unlicensed stock images... lol
The way they released this game is exactly the same way Mayhem released their first demo. Very apt. Maybe intentional I am not sure!
That thumbnail... I didn’t know Jesse Pinkman was a programmer at id 👾
Those random growl noises...
Is there no audience?
45:55 I played theese things a lot,take note developers when you put out a fucking AAA games that you dont even play.
1st Crate maze... hum...Sokoban
WTF is with the background music/noises?
About the wristmatt, thats a joke right?
My eyes are bleeding from DosBox's terrible performance on Mac.
It looks like the entire capture from the computer. See how slow the title transitions are.
Dosbox runs fine on any Intel Mac. They're pulling a choppy video-of-a-screen-capture for the presentation. But, y'know, never let facts get in the way, yeah?
Nice presentation, but how crappy the DOSBOX on his Mac is running doom is killing me! Why did they run it at 8 fps for the presentation? Somebody needs to learn how to optimize DOSBOX.
(it's a screen-capture of Dosbox i think)
Pretty sure it's captured footage from the 90s... You can't expect it to be perfect because you were born after the fact
Nah, it's clearly running DOSBox. At the very least, it's a capture from DOSbox.
Looking at it, their whole presentation is like 8FPS too. Look at the text every time it appears, or when anything moves on the image.
I think it's actually that GDC recorded it at 8FPS, since I'm pretty sure that if it was in their actual presentation, they would jokingly note that in one way or another.
Someone please add English subtitles to this!
Hit the "CC" button (closed captions) next to the settings icon at the bottom of the video. :)
There's only auto-translated, no one's made proper subtitles.
Well that would be quite a lot of work for someone to do.. it's an hour long. Plus Romero and Hall talk over each other often, which makes them difficult to hear sometimes. I know auto translate isn't that great.. it makes a lot of mistakes.. but it's probably the best you will get :(
I want Romero to have my babies👶👶👶
I miss those days when saying Nazis are evil was an uncontroversial statement in gaming.
Without John Carmack this talk is lacking. Why was't he included?
nice 386 frame rate
It's dosbox footage so not sure how this really ran on real hardware
game developers allways think there doing stand up lol and all you hear is crickets lol
The audience is generally not mic'd for these conferences. They usually do get... y'know, SOME reaction, even if it's just a polite one, but the only mics you're hearing are the speakers', and they're not going to pick a lot of audience noise quieter than a round of applause from the whole room.
David Brevik was pretty funny actually, but he wasn't really trying to be funny so that might be why.
You can tell Tom Hall likes talking about his job and little nuances.
You could see that Romero left the company with Quake 2, that game was so soulless , great tech but boring ass game.
And just to clarify. The first EVER RELEASE of DOOM was NOT 1993. IT was spring or summer of 1992. It was a floppy called knee deep in dead and had the first 8 levels on it only. Talk about a classic. My cousin and I used to wake up at 4:30 am, run downstairs in the basement and play. We were so scared of opening doors, took us a very long time to beat the 8 levels. Especially when your 6 and your cousin is 3 years of age. The best, always the best, and nothing can beat it. DOOM forever
so they finished wolf3d in may 92 and finished doom in about 2 mths, not likely.
@@fordprefect4728 hello what do you mean BELIEVE IT I played the DEMO knee deep in the dead black floppy white writing came out in late 92 like Jan or Feb 93. Look it up. I played it when I was 7
from the wikipedia page
Doom's original release date was the third quarter of 1993, which the team did not meet. By December 1993, the team was working non-stop on the game, with several employees sleeping at the office; programmer Dave Taylor claimed that working on the game gave him such a rush that he would pass out from the intensity. Id began receiving calls from people interested in the game or angry that it had missed its planned release date, as hype for the game had been building online. At midnight on December 10, 1993, after working for 30 straight hours, the development team at id uploaded the first episode of the game to the internet
@@fordprefect4728 I played it that summer. I called my cousin about it. Summer of 93 his dad got the demo.
@@aliencatcrew3336 u played it in 94, r u for real or just saying this, u have 1 of the creators of the game saying when it was made and its also on the wiki page, should i believe those sources or some guy who at 7 yrs old in 93 swears by it lol.
man who knows nothing about patents gives 30 seconds of patent advice
Tom Hall is so annoying and he clearly has no idea.
Gary is just jealous.
They talk over each other a little too much, tbh..
"Post-mortem" is such a stupid, cringy term for something like this.
Kinda yeah, it also kinda implies the game is dead when Doom 1/2 are very much alive and well. Probably better for games that ultimately failed or something.
Doom games are so fucking boring. The most mindless and pointless gameplay loop you could possibly have. Fucking Tetris is more fun.
Heh, wrong comments section, bud.
wah wah wah there was once a game wah wah no clue wah
as pointless as it gets. some wah wah bullshit, nothing else