Good points. I am a bit on the fence with the "letting the narrator interject" example, though. If you have a well established closed third person persepective, it is totally possible to write something like the "shockingly" in your example and it is clear that it IS the POV characters perception of the situation. POV charactes do not need to be written in 1st person to have a voice. You are not limited to "direct" thought in italics and first person. either. Instead of saying somthing like: Megan stared at the broken car window. What a mess, she thought. Casey put a comforting hand on her shoulder. it is totally possible to write: Megan stared at the broken car window. What a mess. Casey put a comforting hand on her shoulder. And it is perfectly clear that the "What a mess" is Megan's own view of the situation, not the narrators.
I agree. It's almost impossible to please most editors. :-D You write "shockingly", and they'll complain because it's an adverb. You write, "Megan was equal parts shocked and relieved", and they'll complain because it's telling instead of showing. But here, I prefer the "shockingly" to the alternative. It is more immediate, and I agree that once the POV character is established, the reader will (and the editor should) expect what is written to be from that character's POV - rather than assuming or hunting for a POV fail. I agree on the "What a mess" point too. I am surprised the thief paused to shut the car door, nice and tidy, before he ran away with his loot. :-D
Humm, not using first-person "what a mess," she thought makes it the narrator's thought, not Megan's because the narrator is talking about Megan, and the what a mess is still about Megan from the narrator's POV not Megan's. I don't see any way around using first person to show a character's thoughts from the character's POV. I think Alyssa is right about this.
@@DavePuckett Wouldn't that be the same as arguing _"I love you," John whispered to Cally_ is the narrator's thought rather than John's thought? But it isn't the narrator's thought. It's the narrator reporting John's thought (which he voices in speech).
@@bubble8829 (John whispered to Cally) makes it first person John, not the narrator reporting it. humm, I can see it both ways now that you put it that way. This isn't a clear-cut technique. For the narrator reporting it, it might be more clear to state: John whispered to Cally that he loved her. and no first-person would be involved.
I'm writing a novel in third person, close, multi POV. I like the ease of third person for multi POV, both when I read it and write it. It feels like a more cohesive story. This video was very timely. Thanks.
I prefer this one too. Though I have discovered that it's easy to drift from one POV to another POV. The first time I noticed it, I was reading and cleaning a fully fleshed out technical scene. I have gone from the MC POV to the "more knowledged" POV; it took me a while to figure out why the scene had this jarring break in it. Once I figured it out, it took me a couple hours to decide who's side I was gonna take, cuss there was gonna be a lot of re-writing either way. Now I use scrivener, so now every scene is titled with the POV character.
close third person is my favorite POV because it is the closest you get to real life and is portrayed like a screenplay. I usually always write in close third person.
I somewhat disagree with the rule of making all thoughts italicized first person. As an audiobook reader primarily, that can occasionally, if appropriate dialogue tags aren't used regularly, render the entire scene incomprehensible. I've dnf'd books because of that before. As long as the author is consistent throughout, first person thoughts aren't strictly necessary. This rule is less of a hard rule and more of a stylistic choice in my opinion.
Same, I hardly find authors who do this lately. Just old books from there to there. Mostly they were not italicized and making it italicized was jarring even. It takes the reader off from the scene, making them think that the protagonist is a book character and this is his/her thoughts showing. I've known so many famous books who don't italicized them
Mind blown. I have watched a lot of videos on 3rd person limited, but no one has ever told me that you must still write the thoughts in 1st person. And I did the contrary all the time. Thank you so much!
It's not an absolute rule. Most books don't italicized them as they distract the readers and get them off from the book world. Most just wrote them indirectly through the narrator's voice
I, absolutely, loved this video. I'm working on a closed third person. I want each main character's thoughts and feelings to be known because three people are affected, dramatically, in my story. I was able to reveal their thoughts and POV in separate chapters of their own. I think I'll add their names to the chapter headings. Like Chapter Three -Jeff. I'm so happy I stumbled across your videos last night.
You probably don't need to do that. Just put some sort of separation between the individual narratives. I usually use three dots. I also start each individual narrative with that character's name. I usually do this by starting with what that character is doing at the start of the narrative.
Do you change the story's tone to fit the character. As in change the narrating voice to try show the characters morals ? I am wondering if will make everything messy. Will it ? I am new to this if you can't tell lol.
@user-po7oy5sr6o When using this viewpoint choice, I don't worry about the tone of the story. It will find itself on its own. What is more important to me is to get inside the thinking of key characters while leaving the thinking and motivations of others, a mystery to the key characters and to the reader. If I were mainly concerned with the tone of the story, I would choose either single viewpoint or omniscient.
@@bobcornwell403 thanks! This helps. What about the style of writing ? Does that change with every character. I was always under the impression that it did. With certain characters, I try to write it in a cryptic tone. For more positive characters, I add in more description. Thanks again fir your help.
8:18 Would it be incorrect to turn this into: Megan held Casey's shoulder and stopped walking. What was that man doing? Was he trying to threaten them? [without italics] It is incorrect to express the character's thoughts through the narration like this? If not, how do I judge when to keep doing this and when to have the direct and actual thoughts in italics instead. When does one of the two become too much?
Thank you. I'm writing a trilogy and had edited it from 1st person limited to 3rd person omniscient. My wife, who is a published author herself, said that writing in 3rd person omniscient is not very popular and a lot of readers today find it confusing. This is largely due to people thinking that there's a lot of head hopping going on even when it's done well. So, I've decided to edit it again and make it 3rd person limited. This video really helped me understand that POV.
New subscriber here! I have always written short stories for children, but now I think it is time to evolve and write more complex and longer stories. Your videos help because they go straight to the point. Thanks!
@@AlyssaMatesic i thought there are two ways to express internal dialogue... Direct thoughts in italics and 1st person or Indirect thoughts without italics and in 3rd person. Is this wrong?
I watched several of your POV videos tonight and I thought I had been writing as the ON, but now I see rotating close third person is really what I'm going for. Thanks. This video in particular helped me clean up a lot of things.
Sweet Jesus, you done fixed all of my troubles in one go. Thank you so much for this. I was feeling pretty reluctant after writing 3 chapters. You have answered all of my questions and now it's off to the races
I've always written in first person POV. It just came natural to me and I probably read it most commonly growing up. I think as an adult, though, third person POV is more engaging. I'm tracking to tackle my first story using third person POV and keep accidentally falling into first person POV habits. Great video, it will definitely come in handy!
Thanks for doing this topic. I grew up reading a lot of omniscient 3rd person but I’m writing in close 3rd now and I struggle with not going all out omniscient in some scenes. I have more of a problem in adding omniscient commentary than head hopping. I can catch head hopping pretty quickly but sometimes I will write a sentence or two before I realize that I’ve head hopped. Recently, I’ve been focusing on looking for the omniscient commentary as I revise and just like your “shockingly” example, I am finding that I’ve done this frequently. Thanks again for the great explanations and examples.
I see no problem at all with universe perspective, like Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Knowing what a whale thought and what a pot of petunia thought and what Ford thought and what Arthur thought is absolutely fine. I remember many books where thoughts of different characters are listed one after another. I mean, both approaches are good: when a reader is an omnipresent beholder and when a reader is a "guardian angel" of one character. After all, in games we roleplay all of our characters and their thoughts are our own. We know both sides and not necessarily the future. We may still be surprised with the outcome. Heck, don't we watch movies, shifting between bad guys and good guys? In most stories we are omnipresent! We see what's bothering each character individually. In operas characters sing their thoughts. In the famous Belle song we hear 3 characters' thoughts - Quasimodo, Frollo and Phoebus. They literally sing in unison, we're in 3 heads at once. Yes, it's done right. But that's more of sloppiness problem, not the fact of getting into multiple heads.
Thank you for sharing this! I know it's aimed at professional writers, but I am a fanfiction writer, and it was really beneficial! I really appreciate that you included examples of pitfalls and how to fix them. I've watched a few other videos on third person limited and barely got more than a simple definition of what it is. This video has actually helped my writing.
I'm a beginning writer Christian Science Fiction. I'm in the beginning stages of writing and I do appreciate your video to make sure that I stay in the right POV for the story.
Bravo, this is very helpful. My previous novels were all in first-person, I decided to experiment with 3rd person POV for my current WiP. It is a new experience I have sometimes struggled to pull off. You have nailed some of the things I have fought to eradicate (and am still fighting) without fully understanding why they seemed "off" or problematic. You have helped me better define what I am trying to pull off.
I thought limited third person was same as close third person? I’ve also heard that third person omniscient is passé now and that it is a red flag to professionals. I think writing goes through trends just like clothes and hairstyles etc. you might look into it a little further to see if there has been a shift in what is expected.
@@nikkinewbie6014 Yeah, I know it’s a bit demodé, but I think it’s an interesting style to learn. For example, you can choose to keep it in the 3rd person omniscient for a part of the story, or a chapter… I mean as long as you can really pull it off?! So many things are a thing of the past until someone uses it really well - the first chapter of Harry Potter is a well-known example. About the other point: Close third-person is much like third-person limited but with an additional layer of intimacy, I’d say, that is why I’d be interested to see a video about it. I want to avoid silly mistakes and sound confusing in my writing, so if there’s a difference between those, I wanted to know how much we have to stick to one or the other. 👀
I think it takes some experimentation to determine which POV best suits your story. Some will obviously lend themselves to telling in first person. Very few written in second wouldn't be more effective in first or third. Third is probably the most versatile. Your points of POV consistency are spot on. Ideally one per scene if not story. However, I find some stories with multiple characters integral to the story can be told in multiple POV with a shifting VP character but clearly delineated by a line break and establishing whose POV we are now in within the first sentence. You can also adjust from a close third to distant third, like the focus of a camera's lens. Omnisient POV is difficult to pull off but can still work if skillfully done [Lonesome Dove]. Second is probably even more difficult but can put the reader into a unique perspective [Bright Lights Big City] Of course, when submitting it seems the gatekeepers are actively looking for reasons to reject a work and get on to the next- so you run the risk of violating that readers stylistic prejudices
im struggling a lot with a few paragraphs of mine that i feel interjects as the narrator and dumps exposition on the reader about the main character's life up until the present moment. i cant exactly tell on my own whether or not these paragraphs are me dumping information on the reader or a way to inform the reader through the main character reflecting on his life. thanks for this video! i think it'll absolutely help me with this problem
Thank you for sharing! I was happy when I felt like I considered all points in the sense, that I was doing them the right way, but it never crossed my mind that I should write the inner thoughts of my 3rd person pov as first person, Interesting!! I will try this!
4:10 What about: Casey wore an expression like she could tell something was bothering her. Wouldn't that keep more true to the original intention of showing the readers how Casey was feeling or what she was thinking in a way that makes sense from Megan's POV?
I almost always choose close third person, often multi-POV. When reading I enjoy that or 1st person. I *can* enjoy a good 3rd omniscient, but I read more for character than plot so I dislike that added distance.
Question: Is it considered a POV violation when the narrator describes the POV character; that is, detached from the character's own observations? What about opening a scene with a measure of objectivity before dipping into the POV character's experience? I suppose the narrator is always present, at least in terms of style, but these two areas seem a little unclear.
This is very educative and timely. Until now, i did not know about the close thrid person POV. I use the 3rd person POV on the novel i am experimenting on (i have never written a novel before). This video has given me insight as to how i can reconsile the narrator's voice and the POV character's voice.
I am a beginner, never wrote a short story let alone a book. Yep, trying for a book 1st. LOVED your examples, you didn't just explain. That helped immensely, thank you!!
After several books, and lots of help from betas and editors and you, just as you said, put my mind in the characters perspective. This helped me to avoid such mistakes to write from someone else's perspective or what happened around them which they can't know about. Good video. Always good to have a reminder.
I loved your Video. It was clear concise and informative. Your examples clarified very clearly the points you were trying to make. I found it extremely helpful and now I know what mistakes to look for in my own manuscript
Thank you for the tips. I've made some of these mistakes before lol. My current WIP is third person limited. I pick POV based on my overall feel of the story and character voice. My first draft is in past tense, though I'm thinking of changing it to present tense. Third person limited present tense seems to be less common but I've seen it done well before in Defy the Stars.
Thanks as always for your valuable insights. I'm writing my first novel with two co-equal, "alpha-protagonists." In the first-draft so far, I am using close-third for each of the male and female mc's. I am reading Joyce Carol Oates' "them" now. She had multiple pov's in that novel, which was the first of multiple novels of hers to receive a National Book Award. She seems to be using close-third for her three mc's, the mother and two of her children. I do seem to remember, however, at least one instance when she used omniscient-third. Should I go ahead and use omniscient? I've been avoiding this since I've heard from master instructors/authors that it's much more difficult to do omniscient well. And I have considered telling the entire story from only one pov and have read examples from great books, on developing narrative craft, that have multiple pov's, which are from novels considered to have only one alpha-protagonist and multiple beta-protagonists. I have decided that for various reasons, my novel must have dual protagonists that are equally alpha, which I've been taught is also more difficult than the usual single mc, but when well-done can be transformative. The example of that given was "Moby Dick" - which, without Ishmael and Ahab with both as mc's, would have been merely an unremarkable story of an old sea captain chasing a giant whale. What do you think, please. Thanks again. SG
For the last one, is that okay to directly identify - 'Megan was shocked and relieved.' Or should it be showing signs, like: Megan felt her heartbeat slowing down as relief washed over her. She flexed her fingers trying to pump blood back to her bloodstream. He's gone. He's gone. We're safe now. Anywhoo: thanks for this vid! This is super helpful. Wishing to find a community to get feedback.
You are "fixing" a third-person omniscient written POV in your first example. It exists. Look up "3 types of 3rd person point of view You are just turning it into your favourite and most popular version of the third-person limited. There is no formal third-person Close. *Eyeroll* Also, if you are writing in the third person limited, you can switch up the character's PoV by giving a clear divide. Usually, it is best done in separate chapters so the reader doesn't get whiplash from the change of perspective. Unlike what she said at the start, you don't need to keep the whole book in that perspective. The 2nd example is still third-person omniscient. It would make much more sense if she gave the whole chapter than 2 sentence paragraphs. *Facepalm* It's obvious she doesn't know him when it's written as a stranger to her lingered in the parking lot. The sentence could be separated from the one she describes him as a stranger, though. Giving more information about what Tim thinks while he tries to open the door would complete the scene. Why is he doing that? She again changes this from Third-person omniscient to third-person limited. The third example is actually precisely as she says. The fourth example is also correct. When in third person limited. You are that character; you feel, observe, hear, think, smell, and feel motion. The essential part is to convey what is important. What would you focus on if something like that happened to you? Please write as much as you need. You can always dial back to what is most relevant to the story with what you feel is best to keep. Keep the descriptions and images you've crafted(separate from your reduced but most likely concise vivid image/scene). It can be helpful when working with an editor. For reference, rather than forgetting most of it throughout the book and time. It's also an excellent Image-crafting exercise. This whole example was a tell and no show, and her addition was still a tell. The man took some tool out of his backpack and wedged it in the passenger door. The car lurched, and a shrill sound grated on her ears, the door's metal giving in to the force exerted. (should be italics) *No, no, no..... Why is this happening, who is? Oh no, the gift Casey gave me... he will take it.* She tasted and tried to stifle the salty water rolling down her cheeks. (Should be in italics) *That's my anniversary gift, and I will keep it no matter what*. Taking her phone out, Casey dialled 9-1-1. 5th one is also Shockingly correct.
Hi, Very informative vid again, thanks. How do you write dialogue between different characters and switch scenes, using third person POV and an all knowing narrator?
I'm not sure, but I think I am writing mostly in omniscient third person, because I am following the actions of several characters at once, & only narrating from a single character's POV when that character's actions or feelings are the most important or relevant to the scene, or when that character is alone or has gone off on their own. I have more than a single main character & several main side characters who all play important parts in the story, so I tend to switch between their own POVs & omniscient third person narrative. If I had a single main character, I would likely stick with that character's POV, but I have an ensemble cast. My primary main characters are a military strike team & their leader, along with two female geneticists/arachnologists. It is primarily their story, & they are the main protagonists. They are the ones who must confront & kill the main antagonist. They are not, however, in every scene. Some scenes deal with what's happening with one or more of my main side characters, events that are important to the plot. I know switching POVs like this can be confusing if not done right, but so far the story seems pretty straightforward. I would like to know if what I am doing is simply under the heading of omniscient third person or if I am slipping into close third person but with more than a single character's POV.
It should be noted that internal (direct) thoughts should be used sparingly. The vast majority of thoughts should be indirect, written in 3rd person, in whatever tense you are using for the rest of the narrative. Indirect thoughts are the character's thoughts as relayed to the reader by the narrator. Direct thoughts are word for word what the character is thinking. If the narrative is littered with direct thought in italics, the reader will quickly become distracted by it. Also on direct thoughts, not only should they be 1st person, but they should be present tense.
Free indirect discourse/speech/style is the term for this, and when done well with a distinct character voice it feels like direct thoughts. Elmore Leonard did it best, imo. You mentioned different tenses, and I just want to say that I hate 3rd person present tense prose so much, and these indirect thoughts are the worst, most unnatural part of it. Your last point about direct thoughts, 2nd person can work too. I think in 2nd person sometimes, and I've seen it in novels.
When I use multiple POVs I make always sure the scene has ended and basically I can start fresh with new POV. But if I kept the POV of person A in the first scene and move on to person B in the next scene I am not in the head of the person A, I can't tell what they are thinking, because person B doesn't know what they are thinking. I usually use different POVs in separate chapters, as it is easier to avoid head hopping and confusing the reader. But 3rd person POV is my fav and unfortunately most books nowadays have first person narrative. :/
This is brilliant advice. I have two important characters whose experiences drive the story. They are in different circles, with different friends, etc, so I am careful when I switch (every few pages or so) to only express feelings and emotions for those two individuals only.
Hi Alyssa, I am writing my first fiction novel in third limited present. I bounce between omniscient and close in same scene. I have three or four teachers that I follow and then I found you. Your version of third close is the best I have found. (Seriously. Sorry for the adverb. LOL) Concise teaching Alyssa. Thank you. I subscribed immediately. I'd like to talk to you via email about editing. Do you only edit full manuscripts? You also answered a question I had. My narrator pov character is Garrett Nolan. As the narrator, I named him fully in the second paragraph. I use third close (limited) the rest of the way. I used third distant for opening camera shot (first paragraph) for the hook. I take it that that is correct or did I misunderstand your teaching. Since you posted this 11/7/2021, you might not even seen my comment. And that's OK. I'll remain subscribed. I like your teaching and example method. Thanks for any further help. God bless.
@@AlyssaMatesic I am traveling for from Oregon to Texas to see my son for about three weeks, so don't think I've forgotten about you. I will upload form when I return. I'll see you then.
Can I use "I" statements when writing internal dialogues? My protagonist has some trauma and she refers to herself as something else that she is not. For example: saying "I am not a saviour." The genre is fantasy.
There was one time I remember that an author showed multiple points of view in one scene. Frank Herbert's Dune the dinner scene, and I think it was done successfully there. However, I would not recommend it for frequent use.
I'm writing close third person with multiple POV. The problem I'm working on is switching POV during action scenes involving different POVs. Especially with little snippets within the scenes that are too small to be a chapter all their own but add crucial details to what is happening.
It's called a chapter break. Break it however you like. I've seen people use a symbol * ~ and I've seen people use an extra large space. I've also seen people blatantly state which POV they're switching to (it's kinda barbaric, but it's clear and effective... like splitting a head with an ax). In an action scene, after the break, clearly state the name/descriptor of who've you've switched to; you're readers will happily follow the change. A confused reader is an unhappy reader. I think the more important question is defining "What is a crucial detail in an action scene?" Can this "crucial detail" be explained somewhere else (foreshadowing)? The action scene is taking place in a warehouse, the sidekick throws the MC a crowbar... do we really need to know where the crowbar came from? It's a warehouse, there's probably gonna be a smattering of tools (like a hammer and screwdriver, etc) laying around somewhere. I do get it though. There are perspectives that can make the action scene seem more heroic or dangerous. The question is, are those perspectives important? Unless the story is about a mechanic on a spaceship, I'm not gonna care about mechanics getting blown out during a space battle, I just won't; now, if the mechanic was established as the love interest of the captian or MC or whatever. Are the "crucial" details really that important? If the immersion is not affected, then no. If it is a military story, the the "crucial" detail could be commented on from an after-action-report/meeting. There are ways around crippling the pacing of an action scene. Every POV change in an action scene is exactly that, a speed bump in the pace.
@@clintcarpentier2424 i did some searching and attempted to do a kinda pass the baton/ zoom out situation. i ended up just cutting it. figured it added more mystery to not show what happened while the POV wasn't present. I leaned more on a after-action reporting scene to give insight on what happened instead of showing a mysterious event in real time. had to lose some cool sentences but might recycle them in a later scene
@@LydhiaMarie that's what i've been trying to do on my current WIP, and did on my edits of my novel. just pick who has the most interesting and immersed time in the scene
Great video, very helpful! I'd also be very interested in a video about writing in 3rd person omniscient. I wrote my book in omniscient, but I know it's still lacking. A critique partner recommended I switch to close 3rd person, but I also love the freedom of omniscient. So I would be happy to hear your insights on this POV style. Thanks for the content!
@Tom, a “limited third” just means the perspective is limited to just one or a few characters instead of omniscient. Omniscient narrators have access to all the characters and all knowledge. “Close limited” means we follow that character closely and have access to the character’s thoughts and feelings. A distant and limited third person means we are distanced from the character and don’t feel that emotional closeness, almost as if the writing is more objective and prevents close access to the character.
Can you have just 2 short sections, near the climax and close to each other, where the main character is not present and another character's point of view is given? So it would be a stand alone scene for both, not a break from your MC's perspective in the scenes he's in like in your example. I feel like the scenes would add a lot to the story although could be skipped if absolutely necessary.
So in the example she gives at 3:16, the phrase "Casey could tell ..." means that it's written in omniscient 3rd person. Why is it a problem if, even if you start off in close 3rd, you slide into omniscient 3rd at points in the novel, and therefore it becomes in effect omniscient throughout?
Close 3rd is not omniscient. How to differentiate... Close 3rd does not head hop! Thus you get closer to the character, and you can understand their thoughts from what they actually know. She does not know Casey's thoughts. Even if she is established as a character who projects/assumes of other characters, it would not read as "Casey could tell...", it would read more like "Casey's thinking I'm a slut, I can see it in his eyes..." Omniscient HAS to be established early in the story. It can't be thrown at you just cuzz convenience; that's just jarring, and defending it is bad authorship.
Thank you for this. I'm writing a romance novel in close third person with one POV. My issue comes with too much dialogue. I feel it's taking up too much and I'm trying to find ways to break it up. I got a few ideas for a few scenes, such as. Brandon stared into his coffee, his reflection danced back as he contemplated Sarah's words. Something like that. I just need to find other places so it's not so much dialogue. I literally have a section that is 30 lines of dialogue (I do have tags every 2-3 lines), but that still feels like too many. I'm going to use this advice going forward and then with my rewrite. Thank you.
That’s interesting. I always thought romance genre typically has two pov characters - the couple. Not saying you’re wrong to just do one of them…but I love romance because you usually get that delicious internal conflict and angst from both people in the relationship. I love how we often see two people experiencing the same situation and yet they react differently and as individuals because of their respective baggage.
@@nikkinewbie6014, thank you for your comment. I always appreciate the feedback. I have seen done in different ways. Currently reading Not a Game by Cardeno C. which is done in the style of a close 3rd person following just one character. I've also read The Comeback and The Stand-In which are both first-person from one character's point of view. I've also read the Four Bear Constructions series which is what you're describing, two points of view from both love interests. So, I've seen many ways to do it. So, I see what you're saying, and this style seems to work for me. Mostly because I'm not good at writing two viewpoints and want to do the best I can with the style that is most comfortable for me.
@@joshuafurtado2299 You’re welcome for the feedback. It’s strictly layman. Your response makes complete sense. It sounds like you’ve done your due diligence in evaluating published works to see what resonates with you on that issue balanced with how comfortable you would be writing one pov versus two. I am no authority on any aspect of writing. I’m new and still learning basic craft; but I’d say you are on the right track. Your confidence about the issue should serve you well, allow you to check that item off your project list as “decided” and focus on other aspects of crafting your story. May your pencil be ever sharpened. 😂😂.
@@joshuafurtado2299 Nice! Of course I was referencing the Hunger Games lines about odds being ever in one’s favor. But I like your take better! Take care!
The novel Illuminatus, by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, is written in a chaotic close third person, where the POV can change paragraph by paragraph, or even sentence by sentence. I've heard from several sources that this was done on purpose. What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks. I enjoyed the video. Do you have any tips for how to address characters that are related in this POV? I am really struggling with this as I write a story that involves the parents of my primary characters. Do I continually refer to them as Mother and Father as the characters do or do I use their names?
If you're writing in third person, I would recommend going with the mom & dad characters' names, as the narrator is supposed to be more of an objective figure! But ultimately, it's all up to you :) Thanks for commenting!
Deciding between "standard" third person and "close" third person (I won't be able to stay with one character for the whole ride). I would prefer "close," but lack experience with it and cannot, off hand, think of any good examples. So... 1) Can you recommend a book that uses closes third person well? (preferably not Romance or Erotica) 2) Can you recommend a book (or video) that teaches close third person well? [ By the way, this video was very helpful ] I picked up one very short book on the subject based on its title. That book basically covered all pages with praise for the method while providing little meat. Relative to your last point (letting the narrator interject), Some guidance on transitioning between the omniscient narrator and close third person POV would be useful. Never do it? Do it in its section or chapter only? Have some "vehicle for showing that the story is stepping back from the POV character to observe and comment from a less personal viewpoint (which would be... )? (and visa versa of course)
I'm two years late but perhaps this will still be of use to you. One of the masters of this style was the crime novelist Elmore Leonard. Though some of his early and even mid-career books did have occasional head-hopping (switching POV mid-scene). The overall quality of his work fell off a bit after Pagan Babies and Tishomingo Blues. Pretty much everything up through those was good to great. And fair warning, they all have quite a bit of profanity, blasphemous and otherwise.
I'm just not sure if I should write in close third person or just first person. I'm leaning towards close third person, because they have a strong personality that might jar the reader, but at the same time... I really prefer first person! I'm just not sure. I'm also switching between two character's perspective (it's a classic love story). It's really hard to show the switch in first person.
I'm close to finishing editing my novel and have started on book 2. And im just learning that there is more than one type of third person point of view? I think ive been using omniscient 3rd person. Do you have a video on that one?
hi, what's wrong with a story that occasionally shifts to focus on other characters? I read that HP is written from the Third Person Limited point of view. While the story occasionally shifts to focus on other characters
Great introduction! To take it a step further I’d love to hear you talk about 3rd person active / passive voice common mistakes XD I’m always making those! Doh!
Third person deep. Its a hard one. But a challenge I'll gladly take. Your last tip is my gremlin. Thanks for your examples, they helped me understand the narrator problem. This will be my first novel. It's quite a journey. ❤🙏
For the 1st example, is it okay if its: Casey nibbled on his bottomlip as he kept casting side glances at her. (I didnt want to keep starting off from Megan. Is this okay? It is still what Megan noticed in her POV - OR should it really have to start from Megan --- like "Megan couldnt help but notice Casey nibbling his bottom lip.... "
I'm writing in first person, past tense. Two reasons. Most cozies are written this way. An author told me that this genre is like the MC sitting at a campfire with friends, telling the story.
I do the fifth one. Just 'Fortunately' though. I thought it was for the benefit of the character. Like they feel fortunate. With number 3, I do it consciously. I used to italicized them but I've seen authors in publication, one example is JK Rowling, do this. I now used it as my writing style. I hardly find books nowadays who used it though. It seemed seamless to me and to the readers. If it works, it works
Hi. Excellent video. I'm not a writer, but I read a lot of fiction. I often find myself unable to immerse myself in a book for some reason. Your video has helped me to identify what might be challenging my suspension of disbelief. I'd be interested to hear recommendations for books that exemplify good practice in close third person. The Rabbit books by John Updike come to mind.
Great video and examples. Two questions, 1) for deep third person POV how do you differeniate between direct and indirect internal diaologue? 2) my book has characters using mental telepathy to communicating , how do I format with internal diaologue? Please keep the videos coming, I learn a lot from them.
The thing about internal dialogue, is thoughts are messy. Communication is generally messy, but your mind is a quagmire of... sewage, often handled by your own defense mechanisms; stuff like "it can't be done, so it probably isn't worth doing" type of reasoning. A good example of this is a story I'm reading right now, and it's well done. "Mushoku Tensei". Lot's of internal dialogue, lots of self-doubt reasoning; lots of self-loathing and self-improvement. The anime is pretty close to the web novel, but if it's the writing you want to learn, then you have to read. I recently read a web novel that dealt good example, called "Kumo Deso ga Nani ka?" It is a fun story, with lots of internal dialogue and occasional telepathy. The MC is plain bad at speaking, and the author plays on these three forms of communication, in particular is her relationship with "appraisal". The anime skips a LOT of character development, meaning she grows OP way too fast without the explanations from the web novel; you'll have to accept that Feirune is very much a minor character in the web novel. The writing of these two is surprisingly good, so I'm not sending you on a journey of self-torture. If you're into self-torture, I'd advise Arifureta as an experience of how not to write. The writing is almost as good as the CGI in the anime.
What if I'm writing from closed third person POV, but the protagonist I'm following knows nothing about the world they wake up in. Say she is an alien that has just come into existence, finding herself on Earth, lacking any knowledge about simple, basic things like the sky, the moon, the rivers, the trees, etc. She doesn't know the name of all these things. I want to use third person POV so the reader get to discover the world from her perspective as she does. Can I still call these things by their names while describing the scene setting? For instance, will this sentence be correct? "She opens her eyes and blinks against the sunlight." She doesn't know at this moment that this celestial object is called the Sun, or that she's lying on grass, or that what's flowing nearby is a "river" she will learn about all that later by interacting with humans.
I know this is an old question but, no. By calling it sunlight you are detracting from the very mood you are trying to create which is confusion. The world would be a cacophony of sensations, sounds and images. Your brain would not even understand basic things like perspective much less things like the sky or the ground. You want to make the reader feel the same way and by not letting them be just as confused as the character. You’re negating the whole point of using close-third POV. For instance.. “He woke in dark basement confused, disoriented and surrounded by shelves and boxes. Out of the corner of his eye a dark ghost moved and there was a shuffling sound” Vs “He woke in the darkness, disoriented and confused surrounded by shelves and boxes. “A basement?” He thought. A dark shadow flickered in in the corner of his eye, there was a shuffling noise” Same scene but more effective because the reader is just as uncertain as the character.
Is there a difference between internal thoughts and internal dialogue? Sometimes when I read books in third person deep, some thoughts are in italics and some are not. It’s like they are mixing deep and limited. Is that a thing?
Question. What about description, setting the scene? Do I describe only the things my POV can see, smell, hear, etc? Or can I, the narrator, describe things that I want my reader to see?
I cannot figure out which point of view I should use for my novel. It is my first novel and I have started it more than a few times. Is there a process that could help me decide which person to use?
Hi there - I have a video all about choosing the right POV for your novel: th-cam.com/video/mWJWIOw-CrY/w-d-xo.html It might give you some things to think about!
Good points. I am a bit on the fence with the "letting the narrator interject" example, though. If you have a well established closed third person persepective, it is totally possible to write something like the "shockingly" in your example and it is clear that it IS the POV characters perception of the situation. POV charactes do not need to be written in 1st person to have a voice. You are not limited to "direct" thought in italics and first person. either.
Instead of saying somthing like:
Megan stared at the broken car window. What a mess, she thought. Casey put a comforting hand on her shoulder.
it is totally possible to write:
Megan stared at the broken car window. What a mess. Casey put a comforting hand on her shoulder.
And it is perfectly clear that the "What a mess" is Megan's own view of the situation, not the narrators.
Yes, and it's less jarring to the reader.
I agree. It's almost impossible to please most editors. :-D You write "shockingly", and they'll complain because it's an adverb. You write, "Megan was equal parts shocked and relieved", and they'll complain because it's telling instead of showing.
But here, I prefer the "shockingly" to the alternative. It is more immediate, and I agree that once the POV character is established, the reader will (and the editor should) expect what is written to be from that character's POV - rather than assuming or hunting for a POV fail.
I agree on the "What a mess" point too.
I am surprised the thief paused to shut the car door, nice and tidy, before he ran away with his loot. :-D
Humm, not using first-person "what a mess," she thought makes it the narrator's thought, not Megan's because the narrator is talking about Megan, and the what a mess is still about Megan from the narrator's POV not Megan's. I don't see any way around using first person to show a character's thoughts from the character's POV. I think Alyssa is right about this.
@@DavePuckett Wouldn't that be the same as arguing _"I love you," John whispered to Cally_ is the narrator's thought rather than John's thought? But it isn't the narrator's thought. It's the narrator reporting John's thought (which he voices in speech).
@@bubble8829 (John whispered to Cally) makes it first person John, not the narrator reporting it. humm, I can see it both ways now that you put it that way. This isn't a clear-cut technique. For the narrator reporting it, it might be more clear to state: John whispered to Cally that he loved her. and no first-person would be involved.
I'm writing a novel in third person, close, multi POV. I like the ease of third person for multi POV, both when I read it and write it. It feels like a more cohesive story. This video was very timely. Thanks.
I prefer this one too. Though I have discovered that it's easy to drift from one POV to another POV.
The first time I noticed it, I was reading and cleaning a fully fleshed out technical scene. I have gone from the MC POV to the "more knowledged" POV; it took me a while to figure out why the scene had this jarring break in it. Once I figured it out, it took me a couple hours to decide who's side I was gonna take, cuss there was gonna be a lot of re-writing either way.
Now I use scrivener, so now every scene is titled with the POV character.
third person omniscient, is what you have done and what the text she is "fixing" is.
I will write the next one in close third. Thanks 👸.
@clintcarpentier2424 agreed. I recently started using scrivener and it's a game changer for me.
close third person is my favorite POV because it is the closest you get to real life and is portrayed like a screenplay. I usually always write in close third person.
Usually always?
I somewhat disagree with the rule of making all thoughts italicized first person. As an audiobook reader primarily, that can occasionally, if appropriate dialogue tags aren't used regularly, render the entire scene incomprehensible. I've dnf'd books because of that before. As long as the author is consistent throughout, first person thoughts aren't strictly necessary. This rule is less of a hard rule and more of a stylistic choice in my opinion.
Same, I hardly find authors who do this lately. Just old books from there to there. Mostly they were not italicized and making it italicized was jarring even. It takes the reader off from the scene, making them think that the protagonist is a book character and this is his/her thoughts showing. I've known so many famous books who don't italicized them
Mind blown. I have watched a lot of videos on 3rd person limited, but no one has ever told me that you must still write the thoughts in 1st person. And I did the contrary all the time. Thank you so much!
It's not an absolute rule. Most books don't italicized them as they distract the readers and get them off from the book world. Most just wrote them indirectly through the narrator's voice
Head hopping is an easy trap to fall into. I constantly remind myself within a scene whose head I am in.
I, absolutely, loved this video. I'm working on a closed third person. I want each main character's thoughts and feelings to be known because three people are affected, dramatically, in my story. I was able to reveal their thoughts and POV in separate chapters of their own. I think I'll add their names to the chapter headings. Like Chapter Three -Jeff.
I'm so happy I stumbled across your videos last night.
You probably don't need to do that.
Just put some sort of separation between the individual narratives. I usually use three dots. I also start each individual narrative with that character's name. I usually do this by starting with what that character is doing at the start of the narrative.
Do you change the story's tone to fit the character. As in change the narrating voice to try show the characters morals ? I am wondering if will make everything messy. Will it ? I am new to this if you can't tell lol.
@user-po7oy5sr6o
When using this viewpoint choice, I don't worry about the tone of the story. It will find itself on its own.
What is more important to me is to get inside the thinking of key characters while leaving the thinking and motivations of others, a mystery to the key characters and to the reader.
If I were mainly concerned with the tone of the story, I would choose either single viewpoint or omniscient.
@@bobcornwell403 thanks! This helps. What about the style of writing ? Does that change with every character. I was always under the impression that it did. With certain characters, I try to write it in a cryptic tone. For more positive characters, I add in more description. Thanks again fir your help.
8:18
Would it be incorrect to turn this into:
Megan held Casey's shoulder and stopped walking. What was that man doing? Was he trying to threaten them? [without italics]
It is incorrect to express the character's thoughts through the narration like this? If not, how do I judge when to keep doing this and when to have the direct and actual thoughts in italics instead. When does one of the two become too much?
Thank you. I'm writing a trilogy and had edited it from 1st person limited to 3rd person omniscient. My wife, who is a published author herself, said that writing in 3rd person omniscient is not very popular and a lot of readers today find it confusing. This is largely due to people thinking that there's a lot of head hopping going on even when it's done well. So, I've decided to edit it again and make it 3rd person limited. This video really helped me understand that POV.
New subscriber here! I have always written short stories for children, but now I think it is time to evolve and write more complex and longer stories. Your videos help because they go straight to the point. Thanks!
So many gems in this video. The switching to 1st-Person for main character thoughts and dialogue was a curve ball for me! TY
Glad it helped!
@@AlyssaMatesic i thought there are two ways to express internal dialogue...
Direct thoughts in italics and 1st person
or
Indirect thoughts without italics and in 3rd person.
Is this wrong?
I watched several of your POV videos tonight and I thought I had been writing as the ON, but now I see rotating close third person is really what I'm going for. Thanks. This video in particular helped me clean up a lot of things.
Omg the last tip is so eye-opening!!! I knew I was doing something wrong!!
Sweet Jesus, you done fixed all of my troubles in one go. Thank you so much for this. I was feeling pretty reluctant after writing 3 chapters. You have answered all of my questions and now it's off to the races
I've always written in first person POV. It just came natural to me and I probably read it most commonly growing up. I think as an adult, though, third person POV is more engaging. I'm tracking to tackle my first story using third person POV and keep accidentally falling into first person POV habits. Great video, it will definitely come in handy!
Thanks for doing this topic. I grew up reading a lot of omniscient 3rd person but I’m writing in close 3rd now and I struggle with not going all out omniscient in some scenes. I have more of a problem in adding omniscient commentary than head hopping. I can catch head hopping pretty quickly but sometimes I will write a sentence or two before I realize that I’ve head hopped. Recently, I’ve been focusing on looking for the omniscient commentary as I revise and just like your “shockingly” example, I am finding that I’ve done this frequently. Thanks again for the great explanations and examples.
I see no problem at all with universe perspective, like Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Knowing what a whale thought and what a pot of petunia thought and what Ford thought and what Arthur thought is absolutely fine. I remember many books where thoughts of different characters are listed one after another. I mean, both approaches are good: when a reader is an omnipresent beholder and when a reader is a "guardian angel" of one character. After all, in games we roleplay all of our characters and their thoughts are our own. We know both sides and not necessarily the future. We may still be surprised with the outcome. Heck, don't we watch movies, shifting between bad guys and good guys? In most stories we are omnipresent! We see what's bothering each character individually. In operas characters sing their thoughts. In the famous Belle song we hear 3 characters' thoughts - Quasimodo, Frollo and Phoebus. They literally sing in unison, we're in 3 heads at once. Yes, it's done right. But that's more of sloppiness problem, not the fact of getting into multiple heads.
Thank you for sharing this! I know it's aimed at professional writers, but I am a fanfiction writer, and it was really beneficial! I really appreciate that you included examples of pitfalls and how to fix them. I've watched a few other videos on third person limited and barely got more than a simple definition of what it is. This video has actually helped my writing.
I'm so glad you found it helpful! Thanks for commenting.
I'm a beginning writer Christian Science Fiction. I'm in the beginning stages of writing and I do appreciate your video to make sure that I stay in the right POV for the story.
Glad it helped!
I'm just starting out. I've never written a novel before and really needed this, thanks.
I'm writing a multiple close third person pov book so this video was helpful on what to watch out for!
Good luck with your writing!
Bravo, this is very helpful. My previous novels were all in first-person, I decided to experiment with 3rd person POV for my current WiP. It is a new experience I have sometimes struggled to pull off. You have nailed some of the things I have fought to eradicate (and am still fighting) without fully understanding why they seemed "off" or problematic. You have helped me better define what I am trying to pull off.
Glad it helped! Good luck with your manuscript :)
I love the examples! Do you have a video for limited 3rd person and omniscient? ❤
I thought limited third person was same as close third person? I’ve also heard that third person omniscient is passé now and that it is a red flag to professionals. I think writing goes through trends just like clothes and hairstyles etc. you might look into it a little further to see if there has been a shift in what is expected.
@@nikkinewbie6014 Yeah, I know it’s a bit demodé, but I think it’s an interesting style to learn. For example, you can choose to keep it in the 3rd person omniscient for a part of the story, or a chapter… I mean as long as you can really pull it off?! So many things are a thing of the past until someone uses it really well - the first chapter of Harry Potter is a well-known example. About the other point: Close third-person is much like third-person limited but with an additional layer of intimacy, I’d say, that is why I’d be interested to see a video about it. I want to avoid silly mistakes and sound confusing in my writing, so if there’s a difference between those, I wanted to know how much we have to stick to one or the other. 👀
Thank you! This will be my preferred method when I get past this outline. I will definitely be looking out for these potential pitfalls.
I think it takes some experimentation to determine which POV best suits your story. Some will obviously lend themselves to telling in first person. Very few written in second wouldn't be more effective in first or third. Third is probably the most versatile.
Your points of POV consistency are spot on. Ideally one per scene if not story. However, I find some stories with multiple characters integral to the story can be told in multiple POV with a shifting VP character but clearly delineated by a line break and establishing whose POV we are now in within the first sentence. You can also adjust from a close third to distant third, like the focus of a camera's lens.
Omnisient POV is difficult to pull off but can still work if skillfully done [Lonesome Dove]. Second is probably even more difficult but can put the reader into a unique perspective [Bright Lights Big City]
Of course, when submitting it seems the gatekeepers are actively looking for reasons to reject a work and get on to the next- so you run the risk of violating that readers stylistic prejudices
im struggling a lot with a few paragraphs of mine that i feel interjects as the narrator and dumps exposition on the reader about the main character's life up until the present moment. i cant exactly tell on my own whether or not these paragraphs are me dumping information on the reader or a way to inform the reader through the main character reflecting on his life. thanks for this video! i think it'll absolutely help me with this problem
Thank you for sharing! I was happy when I felt like I considered all points in the sense, that I was doing them the right way, but it never crossed my mind that I should write the inner thoughts of my 3rd person pov as first person, Interesting!! I will try this!
Well done, thank you.
This just gave me a couple tweaks to make to my current scene. Many thanks Alyssa!
So glad you found it helpful, Brandon! Thanks for commenting!
Great presentation and highly comprehendible indeed.
4:10 What about:
Casey wore an expression like she could tell something was bothering her.
Wouldn't that keep more true to the original intention of showing the readers how Casey was feeling or what she was thinking in a way that makes sense from Megan's POV?
I almost always choose close third person, often multi-POV. When reading I enjoy that or 1st person. I *can* enjoy a good 3rd omniscient, but I read more for character than plot so I dislike that added distance.
Thay last one is one I should check if I don't do in my own work ;o
Thank you! this was probably the best video on close POV that I've seen. Thank you so much.
So glad you found it helpful! Thanks for commenting!
Question: Is it considered a POV violation when the narrator describes the POV character; that is, detached from the character's own observations? What about opening a scene with a measure of objectivity before dipping into the POV character's experience? I suppose the narrator is always present, at least in terms of style, but these two areas seem a little unclear.
Amazing video. Thank you!
This is very educative and timely. Until now, i did not know about the close thrid person POV. I use the 3rd person POV on the novel i am experimenting on (i have never written a novel before). This video has given me insight as to how i can reconsile the narrator's voice and the POV character's voice.
I'm glad it helped! Best of luck with your novel!
POV used to be a struggle for me, and it took a few novels to shake it. Great video and helpful!
Glad it was helpful!
I am a beginner, never wrote a short story let alone a book. Yep, trying for a book 1st. LOVED your examples, you didn't just explain. That helped immensely, thank you!!
After several books, and lots of help from betas and editors and you, just as you said, put my mind in the characters perspective. This helped me to avoid such mistakes to write from someone else's perspective or what happened around them which they can't know about.
Good video. Always good to have a reminder.
I'm glad it helped!
I loved your Video. It was clear concise and informative. Your examples clarified very clearly the points you were trying to make. I found it extremely helpful and now I know what mistakes to look for in my own manuscript
I'm so glad you found it helpful! Thanks for commenting!
Thank you for the tips. I've made some of these mistakes before lol. My current WIP is third person limited. I pick POV based on my overall feel of the story and character voice. My first draft is in past tense, though I'm thinking of changing it to present tense. Third person limited present tense seems to be less common but I've seen it done well before in Defy the Stars.
Great advice for reworking my novel!
Thank you so much . Your videos are really helpful for me, unlike other's videos.
I've heard a lot of people claim third limited doesn't allow for interior, italicized thought. Thanks for clearing that up.
Thanks as always for your valuable insights. I'm writing my first novel with two co-equal, "alpha-protagonists." In the first-draft so far, I am using close-third for each of the male and female mc's. I am reading Joyce Carol Oates' "them" now. She had multiple pov's in that novel, which was the first of multiple novels of hers to receive a National Book Award. She seems to be using close-third for her three mc's, the mother and two of her children. I do seem to remember, however, at least one instance when she used omniscient-third. Should I go ahead and use omniscient? I've been avoiding this since I've heard from master instructors/authors that it's much more difficult to do omniscient well. And I have considered telling the entire story from only one pov and have read examples from great books, on developing narrative craft, that have multiple pov's, which are from novels considered to have only one alpha-protagonist and multiple beta-protagonists. I have decided that for various reasons, my novel must have dual protagonists that are equally alpha, which I've been taught is also more difficult than the usual single mc, but when well-done can be transformative. The example of that given was "Moby Dick" - which, without Ishmael and Ahab with both as mc's, would have been merely an unremarkable story of an old sea captain chasing a giant whale. What do you think, please. Thanks again. SG
You deserve 10 times more views.
Tysm for all these super informative and well-made videos!
Close 3rd person POV. Excellent video
This is extremely useful, great examples, I'm quite sure I would have made some of these mistakes.
I loved this video. The examples started off with me saying, yeah, I know these to…er ok let me check my latest manuscript.
Great work Alyssa.
I'm writing in 3rd person limited (close). Loved this vid. Helped me allot. Thanks. What is your editor website url
My website is: www.alyssamatesic.com/
Thank you. See you there
SO Helpful, thank you so much!
For the last one, is that okay to directly identify - 'Megan was shocked and relieved.' Or should it be showing signs, like:
Megan felt her heartbeat slowing down as relief washed over her. She flexed her fingers trying to pump blood back to her bloodstream. He's gone. He's gone. We're safe now.
Anywhoo: thanks for this vid! This is super helpful. Wishing to find a community to get feedback.
You are "fixing" a third-person omniscient written POV in your first example. It exists. Look up "3 types of 3rd person point of view You are just turning it into your favourite and most popular version of the third-person limited. There is no formal third-person Close. *Eyeroll* Also, if you are writing in the third person limited, you can switch up the character's PoV by giving a clear divide. Usually, it is best done in separate chapters so the reader doesn't get whiplash from the change of perspective. Unlike what she said at the start, you don't need to keep the whole book in that perspective.
The 2nd example is still third-person omniscient. It would make much more sense if she gave the whole chapter than 2 sentence paragraphs. *Facepalm* It's obvious she doesn't know him when it's written as a stranger to her lingered in the parking lot. The sentence could be separated from the one she describes him as a stranger, though. Giving more information about what Tim thinks while he tries to open the door would complete the scene. Why is he doing that?
She again changes this from Third-person omniscient to third-person limited.
The third example is actually precisely as she says.
The fourth example is also correct. When in third person limited. You are that character; you feel, observe, hear, think, smell, and feel motion.
The essential part is to convey what is important. What would you focus on if something like that happened to you? Please write as much as you need. You can always dial back to what is most relevant to the story with what you feel is best to keep. Keep the descriptions and images you've crafted(separate from your reduced but most likely concise vivid image/scene). It can be helpful when working with an editor. For reference, rather than forgetting most of it throughout the book and time. It's also an excellent Image-crafting exercise.
This whole example was a tell and no show, and her addition was still a tell.
The man took some tool out of his backpack and wedged it in the passenger door. The car lurched, and a shrill sound grated on her ears, the door's metal giving in to the force exerted. (should be italics) *No, no, no..... Why is this happening, who is? Oh no, the gift Casey gave me... he will take it.* She tasted and tried to stifle the salty water rolling down her cheeks. (Should be in italics) *That's my anniversary gift, and I will keep it no matter what*. Taking her phone out, Casey dialled 9-1-1.
5th one is also Shockingly correct.
This was helpful video. Nice work.
The examples are helpful
Hi, Very informative vid again, thanks. How do you write dialogue between different characters and switch scenes, using third person POV and an all knowing narrator?
I'm not sure, but I think I am writing mostly in omniscient third person, because I am following the actions of several characters at once, & only narrating from a single character's POV when that character's actions or feelings are the most important or relevant to the scene, or when that character is alone or has gone off on their own. I have more than a single main character & several main side characters who all play important parts in the story, so I tend to switch between their own POVs & omniscient third person narrative. If I had a single main character, I would likely stick with that character's POV, but I have an ensemble cast. My primary main characters are a military strike team & their leader, along with two female geneticists/arachnologists. It is primarily their story, & they are the main protagonists. They are the ones who must confront & kill the main antagonist. They are not, however, in every scene. Some scenes deal with what's happening with one or more of my main side characters, events that are important to the plot. I know switching POVs like this can be confusing if not done right, but so far the story seems pretty straightforward. I would like to know if what I am doing is simply under the heading of omniscient third person or if I am slipping into close third person but with more than a single character's POV.
excellent lesson
This was awesome, thanks!
It should be noted that internal (direct) thoughts should be used sparingly. The vast majority of thoughts should be indirect, written in 3rd person, in whatever tense you are using for the rest of the narrative. Indirect thoughts are the character's thoughts as relayed to the reader by the narrator. Direct thoughts are word for word what the character is thinking. If the narrative is littered with direct thought in italics, the reader will quickly become distracted by it. Also on direct thoughts, not only should they be 1st person, but they should be present tense.
Free indirect discourse/speech/style is the term for this, and when done well with a distinct character voice it feels like direct thoughts. Elmore Leonard did it best, imo. You mentioned different tenses, and I just want to say that I hate 3rd person present tense prose so much, and these indirect thoughts are the worst, most unnatural part of it. Your last point about direct thoughts, 2nd person can work too. I think in 2nd person sometimes, and I've seen it in novels.
When I use multiple POVs I make always sure the scene has ended and basically I can start fresh with new POV. But if I kept the POV of person A in the first scene and move on to person B in the next scene I am not in the head of the person A, I can't tell what they are thinking, because person B doesn't know what they are thinking. I usually use different POVs in separate chapters, as it is easier to avoid head hopping and confusing the reader.
But 3rd person POV is my fav and unfortunately most books nowadays have first person narrative. :/
Very helpful and third person close
I have partially completed my novel in 3rd person and this video was is helpful. I can send you a copy to read and critic.
This is brilliant advice. I have two important characters whose experiences drive the story. They are in different circles, with different friends, etc, so I am careful when I switch (every few pages or so) to only express feelings and emotions for those two individuals only.
Hi Alyssa, I am writing my first fiction novel in third limited present. I bounce between omniscient and close in same scene. I have three or four teachers that I follow and then I found you. Your version of third close is the best I have found. (Seriously. Sorry for the adverb. LOL) Concise teaching Alyssa. Thank you. I subscribed immediately. I'd like to talk to you via email about editing. Do you only edit full manuscripts? You also answered a question I had. My narrator pov character is Garrett Nolan. As the narrator, I named him fully in the second paragraph. I use third close (limited) the rest of the way. I used third distant for opening camera shot (first paragraph) for the hook. I take it that that is correct or did I misunderstand your teaching. Since you posted this 11/7/2021, you might not even seen my comment. And that's OK. I'll remain subscribed. I like your teaching and example method. Thanks for any further help. God bless.
If you're interested in getting a section of your novel edited, you can definitely inquire here!: www.alyssamatesic.com/inquire
@@AlyssaMatesic I am traveling for from Oregon to Texas to see my son for about three weeks, so don't think I've forgotten about you. I will upload form when I return. I'll see you then.
Can I use "I" statements when writing internal dialogues? My protagonist has some trauma and she refers to herself as something else that she is not. For example: saying "I am not a saviour." The genre is fantasy.
There was one time I remember that an author showed multiple points of view in one scene. Frank Herbert's Dune the dinner scene, and I think it was done successfully there. However, I would not recommend it for frequent use.
Dune is written in 3rd person omniscient, not limited. Herbert can really pull off omniscient like more authors can't.
I'm writing close third person with multiple POV. The problem I'm working on is switching POV during action scenes involving different POVs. Especially with little snippets within the scenes that are too small to be a chapter all their own but add crucial details to what is happening.
It's called a chapter break. Break it however you like. I've seen people use a symbol * ~ and I've seen people use an extra large space. I've also seen people blatantly state which POV they're switching to (it's kinda barbaric, but it's clear and effective... like splitting a head with an ax).
In an action scene, after the break, clearly state the name/descriptor of who've you've switched to; you're readers will happily follow the change. A confused reader is an unhappy reader.
I think the more important question is defining "What is a crucial detail in an action scene?" Can this "crucial detail" be explained somewhere else (foreshadowing)? The action scene is taking place in a warehouse, the sidekick throws the MC a crowbar... do we really need to know where the crowbar came from? It's a warehouse, there's probably gonna be a smattering of tools (like a hammer and screwdriver, etc) laying around somewhere.
I do get it though. There are perspectives that can make the action scene seem more heroic or dangerous. The question is, are those perspectives important? Unless the story is about a mechanic on a spaceship, I'm not gonna care about mechanics getting blown out during a space battle, I just won't; now, if the mechanic was established as the love interest of the captian or MC or whatever.
Are the "crucial" details really that important? If the immersion is not affected, then no. If it is a military story, the the "crucial" detail could be commented on from an after-action-report/meeting.
There are ways around crippling the pacing of an action scene. Every POV change in an action scene is exactly that, a speed bump in the pace.
@@clintcarpentier2424 i did some searching and attempted to do a kinda pass the baton/ zoom out situation. i ended up just cutting it. figured it added more mystery to not show what happened while the POV wasn't present. I leaned more on a after-action reporting scene to give insight on what happened instead of showing a mysterious event in real time. had to lose some cool sentences but might recycle them in a later scene
James Patterson once said to pick the most interesting POV and stick with it as much as possible for the full scene.
@@LydhiaMarie that's what i've been trying to do on my current WIP, and did on my edits of my novel. just pick who has the most interesting and immersed time in the scene
Thank you for your videos! I am still trying to figure out what person my book will be in but leaning towards closed third person.
Great video, very helpful! I'd also be very interested in a video about writing in 3rd person omniscient. I wrote my book in omniscient, but I know it's still lacking. A critique partner recommended I switch to close 3rd person, but I also love the freedom of omniscient. So I would be happy to hear your insights on this POV style. Thanks for the content!
A third person omniscient video is in the works! Thank you for commenting :)
*EXCELLENT!!* 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
In the UK "Close 3rd person" is often referred to as "Limited 3rd person".
@Tom, a “limited third”
just means the perspective is limited to just one or a few characters instead of omniscient. Omniscient narrators have access to all the characters and all knowledge. “Close limited” means we follow that character closely and have access to the character’s thoughts and feelings. A distant and limited third person means we are distanced from the character and don’t feel that emotional closeness, almost as if the writing is more objective and prevents close access to the character.
Can you have just 2 short sections, near the climax and close to each other, where the main character is not present and another character's point of view is given? So it would be a stand alone scene for both, not a break from your MC's perspective in the scenes he's in like in your example. I feel like the scenes would add a lot to the story although could be skipped if absolutely necessary.
So in the example she gives at 3:16, the phrase "Casey could tell ..." means that it's written in omniscient 3rd person. Why is it a problem if, even if you start off in close 3rd, you slide into omniscient 3rd at points in the novel, and therefore it becomes in effect omniscient throughout?
Close 3rd is not omniscient. How to differentiate...
Close 3rd does not head hop! Thus you get closer to the character, and you can understand their thoughts from what they actually know. She does not know Casey's thoughts. Even if she is established as a character who projects/assumes of other characters, it would not read as "Casey could tell...", it would read more like "Casey's thinking I'm a slut, I can see it in his eyes..."
Omniscient HAS to be established early in the story. It can't be thrown at you just cuzz convenience; that's just jarring, and defending it is bad authorship.
@Jerome, I think she means that it’s sometimes jarring to the reader when you switch. Some readers won’t care. Others are bothered.
Thank you for this. I'm writing a romance novel in close third person with one POV. My issue comes with too much dialogue. I feel it's taking up too much and I'm trying to find ways to break it up. I got a few ideas for a few scenes, such as. Brandon stared into his coffee, his reflection danced back as he contemplated Sarah's words. Something like that. I just need to find other places so it's not so much dialogue. I literally have a section that is 30 lines of dialogue (I do have tags every 2-3 lines), but that still feels like too many. I'm going to use this advice going forward and then with my rewrite. Thank you.
That’s interesting. I always thought romance genre typically has two pov characters - the couple. Not saying you’re wrong to just do one of them…but I love romance because you usually get that delicious internal conflict and angst from both people in the relationship.
I love how we often see two people experiencing the same situation and yet they react differently and as individuals because of their respective baggage.
@@nikkinewbie6014, thank you for your comment. I always appreciate the feedback. I have seen done in different ways. Currently reading Not a Game by Cardeno C. which is done in the style of a close 3rd person following just one character. I've also read The Comeback and The Stand-In which are both first-person from one character's point of view. I've also read the Four Bear Constructions series which is what you're describing, two points of view from both love interests. So, I've seen many ways to do it. So, I see what you're saying, and this style seems to work for me. Mostly because I'm not good at writing two viewpoints and want to do the best I can with the style that is most comfortable for me.
@@joshuafurtado2299 You’re welcome for the feedback. It’s strictly layman. Your response makes complete sense. It sounds like you’ve done your due diligence in evaluating published works to see what resonates with you on that issue balanced with how comfortable you would be writing one pov versus two.
I am no authority on any aspect of writing. I’m new and still learning basic craft; but I’d say you are on the right track. Your confidence about the issue should serve you well, allow you to check that item off your project list as “decided” and focus on other aspects of crafting your story.
May your pencil be ever sharpened. 😂😂.
@@nikkinewbie6014 Thank you, and may your pencil never dull, even after you have completed your project. :)
@@joshuafurtado2299 Nice! Of course I was referencing the Hunger Games lines about odds being ever in one’s favor. But I like your take better!
Take care!
The novel Illuminatus, by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, is written in a chaotic close third person, where the POV can change paragraph by paragraph, or even sentence by sentence. I've heard from several sources that this was done on purpose. What are your thoughts on that?
I feel like I've read books that make these mistakes and didn't mind and they are succesful published authors but I will check and come back
Thanks. I enjoyed the video. Do you have any tips for how to address characters that are related in this POV? I am really struggling with this as I write a story that involves the parents of my primary characters. Do I continually refer to them as Mother and Father as the characters do or do I use their names?
If you're writing in third person, I would recommend going with the mom & dad characters' names, as the narrator is supposed to be more of an objective figure! But ultimately, it's all up to you :) Thanks for commenting!
Deciding between "standard" third person and "close" third person (I won't be able to stay with one character for the whole ride). I would prefer "close," but lack experience with it and cannot, off hand, think of any good examples. So... 1) Can you recommend a book that uses closes third person well? (preferably not Romance or Erotica) 2) Can you recommend a book (or video) that teaches close third person well? [ By the way, this video was very helpful ] I picked up one very short book on the subject based on its title. That book basically covered all pages with praise for the method while providing little meat.
Relative to your last point (letting the narrator interject), Some guidance on transitioning between the omniscient narrator and close third person POV would be useful. Never do it? Do it in its section or chapter only? Have some "vehicle for showing that the story is stepping back from the POV character to observe and comment from a less personal viewpoint (which would be... )? (and visa versa of course)
I'm two years late but perhaps this will still be of use to you. One of the masters of this style was the crime novelist Elmore Leonard. Though some of his early and even mid-career books did have occasional head-hopping (switching POV mid-scene). The overall quality of his work fell off a bit after Pagan Babies and Tishomingo Blues. Pretty much everything up through those was good to great. And fair warning, they all have quite a bit of profanity, blasphemous and otherwise.
I'm just not sure if I should write in close third person or just first person. I'm leaning towards close third person, because they have a strong personality that might jar the reader, but at the same time... I really prefer first person! I'm just not sure.
I'm also switching between two character's perspective (it's a classic love story). It's really hard to show the switch in first person.
I'm close to finishing editing my novel and have started on book 2. And im just learning that there is more than one type of third person point of view? I think ive been using omniscient 3rd person. Do you have a video on that one?
So many tell us NOT to use italics... seen it in print both ways... just don't know.
hi, what's wrong with a story that occasionally shifts to focus on other characters?
I read that HP is written from the Third Person Limited point of view. While the story occasionally shifts to focus on other characters
Great introduction! To take it a step further I’d love to hear you talk about 3rd person active / passive voice common mistakes XD I’m always making those! Doh!
Third person deep. Its a hard one. But a challenge I'll gladly take. Your last tip is my gremlin. Thanks for your examples, they helped me understand the narrator problem. This will be my first novel. It's quite a journey. ❤🙏
For the 1st example, is it okay if its: Casey nibbled on his bottomlip as he kept casting side glances at her.
(I didnt want to keep starting off from Megan. Is this okay? It is still what Megan noticed in her POV - OR should it really have to start from Megan --- like "Megan couldnt help but notice Casey nibbling his bottom lip.... "
I'm writing in first person, past tense. Two reasons. Most cozies are written this way. An author told me that this genre is like the MC sitting at a campfire with friends, telling the story.
I do the fifth one. Just 'Fortunately' though. I thought it was for the benefit of the character. Like they feel fortunate.
With number 3, I do it consciously. I used to italicized them but I've seen authors in publication, one example is JK Rowling, do this. I now used it as my writing style. I hardly find books nowadays who used it though. It seemed seamless to me and to the readers. If it works, it works
Hi. Excellent video. I'm not a writer, but I read a lot of fiction. I often find myself unable to immerse myself in a book for some reason. Your video has helped me to identify what might be challenging my suspension of disbelief. I'd be interested to hear recommendations for books that exemplify good practice in close third person. The Rabbit books by John Updike come to mind.
Great video and examples. Two questions, 1) for deep third person POV how do you differeniate between direct and indirect internal diaologue? 2) my book has characters using mental telepathy to communicating , how do I format with internal diaologue? Please keep the videos coming, I learn a lot from them.
The thing about internal dialogue, is thoughts are messy. Communication is generally messy, but your mind is a quagmire of... sewage, often handled by your own defense mechanisms; stuff like "it can't be done, so it probably isn't worth doing" type of reasoning.
A good example of this is a story I'm reading right now, and it's well done. "Mushoku Tensei". Lot's of internal dialogue, lots of self-doubt reasoning; lots of self-loathing and self-improvement. The anime is pretty close to the web novel, but if it's the writing you want to learn, then you have to read.
I recently read a web novel that dealt good example, called "Kumo Deso ga Nani ka?" It is a fun story, with lots of internal dialogue and occasional telepathy. The MC is plain bad at speaking, and the author plays on these three forms of communication, in particular is her relationship with "appraisal". The anime skips a LOT of character development, meaning she grows OP way too fast without the explanations from the web novel; you'll have to accept that Feirune is very much a minor character in the web novel.
The writing of these two is surprisingly good, so I'm not sending you on a journey of self-torture.
If you're into self-torture, I'd advise Arifureta as an experience of how not to write. The writing is almost as good as the CGI in the anime.
What if I'm writing from closed third person POV, but the protagonist I'm following knows nothing about the world they wake up in. Say she is an alien that has just come into existence, finding herself on Earth, lacking any knowledge about simple, basic things like the sky, the moon, the rivers, the trees, etc. She doesn't know the name of all these things. I want to use third person POV so the reader get to discover the world from her perspective as she does. Can I still call these things by their names while describing the scene setting? For instance, will this sentence be correct? "She opens her eyes and blinks against the sunlight." She doesn't know at this moment that this celestial object is called the Sun, or that she's lying on grass, or that what's flowing nearby is a "river" she will learn about all that later by interacting with humans.
I know this is an old question but, no. By calling it sunlight you are detracting from the very mood you are trying to create which is confusion. The world would be a cacophony of sensations, sounds and images. Your brain would not even understand basic things like perspective much less things like the sky or the ground. You want to make the reader feel the same way and by not letting them be just as confused as the character. You’re negating the whole point of using close-third POV. For instance..
“He woke in dark basement confused, disoriented and surrounded by shelves and boxes. Out of the corner of his eye a dark ghost moved and there was a shuffling sound”
Vs
“He woke in the darkness, disoriented and confused surrounded by shelves and boxes. “A basement?” He thought. A dark shadow flickered in in the corner of his eye, there was a shuffling noise”
Same scene but more effective because the reader is just as uncertain as the character.
How do you quote a character in a POV
is closed the same as limited? :)
Is there a difference between internal thoughts and internal dialogue? Sometimes when I read books in third person deep, some thoughts are in italics and some are not. It’s like they are mixing deep and limited. Is that a thing?
Question. What about description, setting the scene? Do I describe only the things my POV can see, smell, hear, etc? Or can I, the narrator, describe things that I want my reader to see?
And when writing the POV character's internal thoughts within a past tense narration, it switches to present tense?
I cannot figure out which point of view I should use for my novel. It is my first novel and I have started it more than a few times. Is there a process that could help me decide which person to use?
Hi there - I have a video all about choosing the right POV for your novel: th-cam.com/video/mWJWIOw-CrY/w-d-xo.html It might give you some things to think about!
Can you write in 3rd POV Omniscient but put internal monologue I'm Italicized?