3D Printing has gotten stale: The past, present and future of RepRap
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ม.ค. 2023
- The reception of the last video (especially the comments) motivated me to do this, thank you for the feedback. Take a deep breath before commenting.
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It occurred to me the other day: Stratasys really lacked vision for the impact their technology could've had. Sure, every university had a $30,000 FDM machine which they would occasionally use for prototyping very specific models. But imagine if Stratasys had made a consumer-grade machine like the Ender 3 a decade earlier. Surely they could've become a household name which changed history? like Ford or Hoover.
I had the same thought a couple days ago, but at the end I thought they were right. The point is that general people don't need a 3D printer like they need a vacuum cleaner or a car, at the point that the market is still small even now that the price is at the rock bottom. So yes, they could have been where Prusa or even Creality is, but still I think Stratasys make more money than them just on their professional market. At the contrary if they brought to the market cheap printers they would have cannibalized at least a part of their high end machines.
@Marco Toselli i agree. I think if you saw mass adoption of a 3d printer in every home ud see alot silk lizards. Benchies. And a handful of miniatures. The curve would be fast a year and a half maybe and they'd be on to the next thing. These machines still require the use of cad in my opinion or 3d software to realize the full potential and thats where the work is. Just some thoughts. I've seem so many silk lizards. The first time I told a "normal" person I had a machine that could make anything so long as it was out of certain plastics. "Yeah but what are you gunna do with it"
Without the internet, those machines were useless for the masses. Gcode files are far too large for dial-up internet. Also, the market had to exist for the filaments to be cheap enough for people to be willing to do trial and error.
@@ryelor123 True. It probably wouldn't have been feasible in the 1990s. But it probably would from 2000 onwards. STL files are pretty lightweight.
The fact that hobbyists helped develop better materials than the patent-holder is further evidence that the patent hampered innovation.
And sure, it's unlikely they'd risk developing a home appliance. But at least something schools and small businesses could easily afford.
It's really not that simple, for one the only reason 3d printing as we know it exists is because of the millions of free manhours of labor the community has put in on top of corporate investments.
No one company could have duplicated that let alone on a shorter time frame.
There's also the fact that you can't just add a whole new packet to your business model on a whim. They would effectively have to fund staff and develope one or more entirely new companies to pursue tue consumer market.
You are also assuming they could develop a market similar to the one we know all on their own, more than likely they would invest hundreds of millions into a new venture, the product would be sub par and not consumer friendly, the division would flash and burn, and fdm printing would carry a stain on its reputation that would dissuade many from trying when the patents expire.
I mean, after all these years, hundreds of companies, millions of users, only now are we coming to a point where maybe you could argue a minimum viable product is possible.... maybe.
“If not for the educational market, a machine this bad for the money couldn’t exist” really sums any technology in education
I've been greeted with the misfortune of using a dremel 3d printer
it's wonderfully awful. for $1400 you can get the same quality of a monoprice MP select mini, with about the same build volume
I even had to 3d print my own replacement part for the door hinge, which was constructed as if a toddler designed it
it also layer shifts randomly, and uses a proprietary slicer AND filament... $1400 is crazy
Never forget: The Anet A8 crawled (burned) so the Ender 3 could run!
This is a great video. I completely agree with your standpoint. I've done 3D printing as a hobby for nearly a decade now, I own 10 printers and I love printing. I realized the stagnation of prebuilt, off-the-shelf 3D printers and went Voron and then modded the crap out of them. I think for one who wants to tinker, who wants to innovate, DIY printers are at the frontier. The Bambulab X1, Prusa XL (less excited about) and many other machines that have come out or been announced recently really makes me feel that the industry is transitioning from bedslingers to Corexy and more. I hope they embrace the technologies and ideas formed in our reprap and DIY communities and modernize 3D printing for the next frontier.
I'm going the Voron route too.
Bed slingers are getting a bad rap. For small build volumes, and for parts that are squarish or pyramid in the shape of their volume, they work. Note: CoreXY printers move in the Y or X axis when both motors move. They move in a diagonal direction when only one motor moves, and the other motor is locked. Since the head usually moves in a combination of X and Y at any given moment, it's clear that one motor in a corexy is doing the heavy lifting at any moment. So a core XY printer will need more powerful motors then a same sized bed slinger. So much for being faster.
OTOH, the corexz layout will combine the power of two motors to move the Y axis, as the Z is moved slowly and usually not at the same time as the Y. For speed, the coreXZ may be the sleeper design.
Stratasys and Darwin are what I show to everyone who tells me patents are a good thing. I cannot care about the inventor when the cost is the benefit of the whole world.
I beg to differ. It wasn't the Ender 3. I bought an Anet A8 in 2016/2017 because fellow drone fliers (another ruined hobby) advised it was a good idea, That machine kickstarted my interest in 3d printing and it cost me all of £170 odd delivered from China back in 2016/2017. It is still running now.
Really liked the video but I was disappointed on the limited content on the 4th era printers! The video ended too soon!
Really the 4th era or 'next gen' is only just kicking off. We've got Voron and Bambu being the main contenders. Sure, Prusa are hoping to join the party with the XL but from what we've seen so far its more like gen 3.5. We simply dont know what else will come out later this year / next year yet but with any luck it'll be good competition as right now 4th gen is pretty niche (although Bambu are changing that pretty rapidly given they've shipped well over 250k units at this point).
@@Rick-vm8bl What's funny too is that the Bambu and Voron are just CoreXY printers. They don't bring anything truly new to the table, they're just making premium features accessible to the midrange market.
I'd say we're still in the second era of 3D printing, where technology that's been used for industrial applications since the 80's is still trickling into the home-gamer market - and we won't hit a third era until i3's are universally considered the dinosaurs they are and all budget printers are CoreXY.
@@NefariousElasticity I'd say the Bambu does offer a few new things. AI based spaghetti detection, LIDAR scanning, the AMS, etc. Maybe some of these were previously on high-end industrial printers, not too sure tbh.
There are plenty of innovations left: radial printing (see: Humphrey Wittingtonsworth IV), 4 axis printing, 5 axis printing, non-planar slicing, continuous wire reinforcement (see: Fraunhofer), affordable metal 3d printing via electroplating (see: Billy Wu), automated electroplating mid-print (see: SunShine), powdered sugar laser sintering, consumer PEEK printers, etc
Phenomenal video. Thanks!!
Bedslingers aren’t all dead, the elegoo Neptune 4 has really good speeds for $260, it appears to be build well and has many sensors that a Ender 3 doesn’t have
Cool video!
But seeing that logo (0:54) even for a second, makes me now think for the next 3 days about how much I would love to wake up one day and see that they no longer exist.
They haven't improved anything, all they have done is make life more difficult for everyone, and they will continue to do so. How does this company even continue to exist?
In truth, they don't know how to do anything better, only more expensive.
While I do agree that their patents make further innovation around hotends harder and thus less likely, I wouldn't go as far as saying Slice Engineering *only* make things difficult. They have excellent manufacturing and customer support. And the arguments for buying as local as possible are growing stronger by the week so "Made in the USA", however meaningless for non-americans it might be, is a valid advertisement to americans.
I if they'd agree to a patent licensing deal and if they would how much they'd charge. I'd be a lot less critical should someone manage to license their tech for cheap, but with how much their hotends cost I doubt it.
@Kyberwerk What you said is true, but is surely not enough for me to change my statement. I see it this way.
Stuff they make is surly good quality, but it cost 2 or 3 times more than stuff other companies make, while not providing any sensible benefits. For example, dragon hot ends made by triangle lab are also really good quality while costing half the price and still having exactly the same level of performance.
[On a side note, Slice like to put unnecessary work in stuff that doesn't make the product any better, which unnecessarily increases the cost. I want a machine, an ugly pice of metal that works, but they try to make it so that their pretty watch that also works is the only option.]
This is a company that can't do anything better (so ppl would buy their products because of superior quality and performance) or cheaper than others.
So if they can't compete, they try to eliminate any competition so they can survive. And to do that, you can't play fair.
Got to say I am really happy with my vzbot that came from my horrible tronxy x5sa. I used the tronxy as it was configured from tronxy and slowly upgraded till I was ready to make the jump.
If anyone reading has a x5sa and is considering building it into a vzbot, this is the sign to do it. If you don't want a full vzbot build, install klipper on the stock board,do.the gantry mods using a EVA.corexy and bmg /v6 mount and brace the printer, you will have a substantial improvement.
Thanks, i don't have it but sounds interesting got the Tronxy as a starting point.
@OmegaDeepBlue the tronxy out of the box was terrible for me. I used it for months with a quality v6 clone and that helped. Things for a lot better when switching to direct drive using the stock extruder and a custom printed mount. Under extrusion and stringing was Eliminated, z sync belt was installed at this point along with printed frame braces.
In all reality you could stop at this point and have a decent printer. It won't be the best or fastest but works pretty good and doesn't cost a ton to get to this point.
What’s next? Non-planar printing and ironing with automatic tool changers and multiplexing nozzles.
Super surprised to not see the upside down printer in the 4th Gen mentions. I have to remember it’s name but it’s open sourced and crazy compact.
Found it, the Positron V3: th-cam.com/video/X_QLxTVtyng/w-d-xo.html
I just literally put together my first 3D printer and made my first Benchy today. What a great spilling of tea to find on my first day. Subscribed!
I'm new to the hobby and I encourage all my family members to at least get an Ender 3. However, no one seems to understand how easy it is to download pre-made designs. They all think its too complicated and they see any minor setback for me as being something that they'd never be able to overcome. Also, no one has the space for one.
If you want to get people into 3D printing, you need to find a way to make post-processing much easier. No one seems to know what is the best media for vibratory tumblers and the experienced people just seem to prefer to spend lots of time cleaning up rough prints instead of coming up with better ways to do it easier. The first print anyone should make should be some sort of a tumbler to clean up the prints.
This is amazing
Quality content
I waited till 2012 when the 3D printer market crashed and got me a Replicator Dual for $250 🥰 I didn't upgrade until 2020 since redesigning the flaws fixed almost everything wrong with those original models. Larger printers where too expensive and ended up finally getting a i3 stile printer that was open box for $110, again having to redesign many of the parts to give me another solid printer. The nature of a bed slinger will always have speed and cooling issues, so when another printer was discounted and open box i got that.. Creality Sermoon D1 for $250, this one had by far the best frame but poor quality control and plenty of design flaws itself. Again.. now an extremely reliable printer now.. just a larger and much more rigid version of my old replicator dual "Darwin Cartesian" printer.
Long->Short; software and faster 32-bit boards to be able to keep up with every increasingly complex tasks the software asks of the hardware have been IMO the only improvements in the past 10+ years. Otherwise CoreXY might have been the only real innovation to reduce extruder mass by moving the X axis motor to the frame
Little Longer; I can run my 260x280x310 Sermoon D1 (Darwin Cartesian type) at 250mm/s and 10,000 acceleration without ghosting but starts to hit the controller boards limits. I'll always consider i3 style machines more of an economical move than innovation for improved printing, unless innovation means more accessible which is definitely can be
More crap; my old Replicator dual with the original 8-bit MakerBot board still prints beautiful using modern slicers, just needs to be connected with USB to print as good speeds and high detail/accuracy. Reading from the SD card makes the board work harder and needs to run at about 45mm/s to prevent artifacts/blobs/skips, otherwise 200mm/s is perfectly doable but 160mm/s is the sweat spot with almost no ghosting at all
Bonus Crap; now companies like Anker and DJI jumping in is starting to push the quality and refinement of 3D printing to where I think i can finally recommend at least the Bamboo X1 to "normal" people
I got into 3d printing with a Mendel and was hooked immediately. I built an i3 (wood frame), a custom delta (which was a bit naff!), a hypercube, bought a Prusa Mini, and now have both a Bambu P1P and X1CC. For all the (valid) arguments against Bambu and the non 'maker' aspect to its design and software its a phenominal leap in performance. I know Voron was getting there but was still obscenely complicated and expensive compared to earlier printers.
One things for sure is that bed slingers are done. They've had their time in the sun, and CoreXY has proven without a doubt that its vastly superior. I'm really looking forward to the next generation. We're about to see an absolute boom in innovation in 3d printing. Prusa - arguably the best printer manufacturer out there is no doubt absolutely pooping themselves right now, and can no longer rely on their trusty 5+ year old design. I really hope that they're hard at work on a new printer (not the XL unless theres currently major changes happening behind the scenes) that brings them back into the frame as with the way things are going they're set to become irrelevent, along with the crappy manufacturers like Creality.
, i'd love to see more open source ultimaker inspired printers, with a different motion system instead! im working on converting a UM2 corpse into an Hbot speedy boi
I was going to get a Bamboo lab printer but the build plate was too small, I’m looking for at least 300x300
Instead I got a tenlog, which has two extruders and allows for multi material without purge towers, and printing two things a at once
I wish I could have the speed and material station of the bamboo lab with two printheads and a larger build area
Seems like you're describing the idex voron
you got your 256 likes, subscribed to see the v0.2 build :)
Do I continue waiting for a better 3d printer or buy one now for 500 cad? seems like it all has come a long way but there is still tons of shit to fix.
3D printers shouldnt have to have a bunch of add-on bits for expensive prices..
Greay video!
Honestly, I thought FLSUN was in on this early. I’ve seen really good reviews, and while an SR isn’t quite as fast as a coreXY, they’re also cheaper. I’m probably going to buy one of them as my next printer.
Have you seen the V400 ? Is crazy fast thought expensive , faster than any of the Bambus too
@@ulforcemegamon3094 Well, I got the SR I was hoping for, and it’s been fast enough for my uses. However, the V400 seems mediocre based on reviews. It’s basically a slightly larger SR with some mods that are already pretty common in the DIY space, and a half-arsed klipper install. All for twice the price. It seems to me that a klipperized SR with some extra cooling fans will perform as good as a V400
Such a good story!
I wouldn't call Ender 3 shitty, it really was a much needed era for 3d printing to actually become available to most people. Every 'new' market has this era, where it transitions from purely being available to the elite to availability to for the masses. I do understand your point on the tsunami of shitty clones but the Ender 3 really allows people to do a ton with it and it really becomes an amazing printer after you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on modifications :), conclusion: Ender 3 is a shitty printer just buy a Bambu Labs X1
Ender is not a good printer. But its function is crucial and kinda similar to cheap store bike. You need to learn on it and if you decide to progress you will appreciate the quality of better brand name bikes
It's the Toyota Corrolla of the 3d printer world. Nothing special, but it gets the job done just well enough to be worth it.
HEADPHONE WARNING 28 SEC.
Thanks for that, Kyber.. Ouch.
I so fucking wish the Bambu lab X1 was out when I was in the market for a 3d printer. It's a masterpiece.
Did Slice Engineering really say "Communist Dystopia"? LMAO
Do you know about the Positron V3? It's in the same category as the Vorons but I think it's unique in its own right. I think a prebuilt one would be a great alternative to a mid range bed slinger, esp for people that don't have much space at home or want to bring it to places...
The Positron has potential, if someone was to optimize, build and ship the thing. You'd save a lot on shipping with a machine that compact and the design could be optimized for manufacture. BUT: Assembly seems complicated, maybe if you assemble in china or india? And there should be protection or something for that glass bed, it's way to fragile for something that will eventually be dropped in collapsing/erecting the Z axis. That's a lot of work, but very well possible.
But someone has to do it. And that's the problem. Maybe you'll be that someone?
Bro do ai and printer 3d pls
Give me a 4D printer, but the 4th dimension is smell-o-vision.
I lie to refer to it as the race to the bottom.
I encourage you to check out the vzbot. I think it's truly pushing some new boundaries in 3d printing all from the lower level, not the top trickling down. That's why I love it. Just ordinary folks, like Simon Vez, making products better and better. I've been impressed with what they have accomplished and are truly pushing this industry forward, imho.
patents piss me off
Are we at enough likes for the v0.2 build now?🎉
I can't believe they use the phrase "communist dystopia" unironically
The 4th here I come
Ai will be the next big thing in 3d printing.
The owner of this patent was a greedy moron who shot himself in the foot. That's not the way patents normally work. Say I had a great idea for a new product the world has never seen before that would revolutionize the way people accomplish a certain task. Were it not for patents, I might as well keep it to myself because as soon as I made it known, others with production capital will make and sell it. Patent protection is the only thing that motivates me to invest my time and energy developing my product and then sharing it with the world. Now, if we are willing to provide everyone with a comfortable guaranteed income, that would be another story. I'd do it for the common good. But at this time that's not the world we live in.
If someones' motivation for developing an idea is that they will make money from it, how good are the chances they won't abuse the patent like stratasys would? Patents create a artificial monopoly in a certain segment of the market and if you decide to be a greedy moron there's absolutely nothing anyone can do. Just look at past or present monopolies, they're universally terrible for consumers and innovation in that segment.
"That's not how patents normally work" - I don't think so, they're expensive and buerocratic and thus favor companies over individuals, and big buisness over smaller buisness. Companies are favoured, biggger ones even more, and if they're trading publically (as most big buisness does) a company is literally *required by law* to maximize "shareholder value", e.g. profit. Who will stop you from abusing your patent like a "greedy moron"? Nobody, you get a 20 year monopoly, abuse this fact to your liking.
And even if they're not required *by law* to make money, as individuals or privately owned buisnesses are, if someone has a idea but they only develop it because they'll be able to patent it and profit, it's very likely someone more motivated by greed than some greater good or a love for the idea. You get a 20 year monopoly to abuse, be as greedy as you'd like!
@@KYBERWERK If you really look into patenting, it's not that hard. There is a mystique surrounding it that keeps the legal profession supplied with customers, but an ordinary person of average intelligence can write a good patent once they figure out how it works. If you look into the rationale of laws surrounding patents and copyright (same thing in another form), you'll see that the purpose is NOT to benefit of the inventor or creator. The rationale they always cite is to benefit society. It's similar to teachers and tenure. People think tenure is a "reward" for teachers when, in fact, its purpose is to protect the integrity of the educational system. But you're right, if someone invents something really cool, patents it, and then just sits on it, he's a total, typically greedy, jerk. But that's the particular individual, not the system. If we eliminated patenting, we would have nowhere near the amount of innovation that we have enjoyed since the industrial revolution started. An occasional jerk is just the cost of doing business. We might agree that in egregious cases like the one you mention, maybe the government should be able to step in with an "eminent domain" kind of thing. I would be ok with that.
@@workingTchr The incentive structure just doesn't work that way. You're creating monopolies and hoping the patent holder will act benevolent, except they'll make more money if they don't. That's a f***ed incentive structure if I've ever seen one.
The rationale of laws surrounding patents is set up in a way that encourages and rewards the "errogious case" I presented, does that really make it a "errogious case"? I don't think so, it would be more accurate to describe the case AS the system.
And I can't find any data on patent holders, how many are held by individuals, small- or large companies so I can't confirm this but I really think out of those three the large companies hold the most. Again, because the incentives are stacked that way.
@@KYBERWERK So we're depending on the patent holder to act benevolent, but if he doesn't act benevolent he will make more money than if was benevolent? So benevolence should be financially rewarded? And if it isn't financially rewarded, then we have a f***ed up incentive structure? Basically, you're saying it's bad to make money or to want to make money. You also seem to be saying that it's especially bad for large companies to make money. As far as the egregious case being rewarded, I don't see how being rewarded makes it any less egregious.
@@workingTchr The argument isn't that it's bad to make money. If you have a patent, you can 1) develop it further, license it out, and price products based on it reasonably. (aka "acting benevolent") Or you can 2) Monopolize the tech, only develop for the most profitable niche, overcharge as much as you can. (The Stratasys strategy)
Option 2 is way more rewarding (profitable) than option 1. And not just that, there's absolutely nothing preventing you from going with option 2. That is bad.
Maybe you need a company of your own dude .
Are you german?😅
Oh nein, I wasn't covert enough! My cover was blown..
😂 bei manchen hört man es sofort raus und andere deutsche sprechen perfektes klares englisch 😂 wir deutschen sind schon komisch
I have a used printrbot simple metal that I bought for the price of 3 spools of pla. I use it 2-3 times a year. I originally bought it to replace a gear in a toy. Honestly I think the market is flooded with cheap used printers because people buy them thinking that it will change their lives but they find out they have little use and sell them. Despite being computer controlled, 3d printers have no accuracy and can’t be realistically used to design mecanical parts. You’re gonna say I’m wrong but the truth is that for designing a single part that fits, you need countless tries. If you only consider the cost of the final part in pla, yes that is cheap. But if you consider all the parts you trashed in order to make it and well… your time… yes your time, its far from a good idea. A single design can cost more than the 3d printer and have no real value in the end. If you get lucky and find a model online that fits your purpose you might save some time. It only happened to me once with a mask for covid which I never used…
Slices patent doesn’t prevent innovation, it encourages it. It forces the community come with better designs.
No, I don't think so. It hinders further development on the idea "seperating a heatbrakes thermal and structural jobs into different components" for anybody other than Slice Engineering. There might be different approaches, such as the E3D Revo "Nozzlebreak" platform, and it might even encourage innovation there (though I doubt it). But it definitely hinders or even prevents development on the patented idea for anyone outside of Slice.
@@KYBERWERK look at 3DP and Prusa… innovation stagnated for 6 years for wide scale printers until Bambu came along. Open Source to some extent pushes complacency. Laziness. Slice patented a commercial product they created. Nothing wrong with that.
@@thelightspeed3d712 If a company were to patent a standard two wheeled bike but fails to bring it to market, and another company manages to successfully bring a tricycle to market and the product is successful, that doesn't mean that the tricycle is better, more efficient or innovative. Innovative in the sense that it is forced to find a way to skirt the law to bring some amount of value into people's lives, but not in the sense that the product is actually any better. Patent's don't by nature encourage any measure of innovation, and especially not improvement.
Erster
I want to gent into 3d printing and it is a very difficult choice, buy a proven, but stupidly overpriced Prusa, P1P and accept its proprietary parts and loudness or wait for more fast printers, because it feels there will be a lot of them launched soon. Really tough choice.
Build a Voron 0.2. Very capable, pretty cheap (for what you get) and you'll learn a lot. You'll also have a printer with a great community, that will remain very capable for a long time. The only downside is the small plate. You can then use the 0.2 to print parts for a 2.4 or Trident or RatRig and keep the journey going...
Greay video!