This Harrier Pilot Shot Down 7 Houthi Drones
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
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A Marine Corps AV-8B II Plus Harrier pilot flying from USS Bataan (LHD 5) downed seven Houthi drones while the amphib was operating in the Red Sea at the end of 2023. Does that make him the first American ace since Duke Cunningham earned that status during the Vietnam War?
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Double the number so the number for the Aces 5 shot down your an ace 10 drone. drone ace
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Ward Sir, Eddie Rickenbacher and Frank Luke were both Aces in WWI and while they had aerial kills against German Aircraft, a good deal of their kills were against balloons, hence as they were said to be "Balloon Busters". I feel Captain Ehrhart is an Ace.
Ward I can appreciate that the Ship's commanders first responsibly is to the safety of their ships! but what this Red Sea War has shown is the Navy desperately needs a much cheaper method for shooting down these very cheap drones- which I can't imagine at most are in the tens of thousands of dollars range or even possibly less!! I am assuming a top notch AA Missile for our fighters is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars ballpark??? That being said the Navy deserves accolades for their performance of their duties there!!
I think a point system would be easy. any score above five and you are a ace. so a fighter is one point, a aircraft that can shoot back is half a point. another self propeled aircraft a third and baloons and tuff like that a fourth.
Just calling out the bad ass who was knocking V1 Buzz Bombs out of the sky by flying up beside them and physically bumping them out of the air.
I came here to say the same thing! Bad ass is an understatement!
It was actually safer than shooting them, if you set the warhead off by firing on them the blast radius was often large enough to damage/destroy your own aircraft.
They’d tip them over and out-of-control! Badass is an understatement.
Upset the guidance gyro and down they go.@@jaybee9269
Always loved that story!
During WW1 there was an American pilot by the name of Frank Luke. He was known as the "Ballon Buster". He was an ace in shooting down both planes and balloons.
Observation balloons of that type would be an interesting case today if anyone used them. While the observer on board was unarmed, the balloons were very well guarded with AA batteries.
Frank Luke is the namesake of Luke AFB outside Phoenix, AZ. Luke AFB is the largest NATO fighter training base and is where the world's air forces go to learn the F-35A and F-16C/D aircraft. Ukraine's pilots for the F-16 are actively training there now.
@JustSomeCanuck unarmed transports or bombers that lacked defensive guns counted as kills plus there are cases of drones being protected so I'd argue that a drones kill is still a kill.
@@ParkerUAS During the Cuban Missile Crisis I was in sixth grade at Balsz elementary school in Phoenix, about 25 miles away from Luke AFB. In the era of H-bombs I would not have been comforted to know that a primary target was that close.
I remember the teachers' worried looks and the daily air raid drills, ducking and covering under a tiny plastic student desk. I have learned recently that I was not the only kid who wondered if the bombs were really as powerful as we thought. Realistically, the drills would have provided some shelter from falling ceiling tiles, but more important they inhibited running-wild panic and would make our bodies easier to identify. "Shirley Jones sat here."
@@JustSomeCanuckBeat me to the “Arizona Balloon Buster.” Didn’t the observation balloons sometimes have a machine gun in addition to ground based AA?
Interesting idea about grading ace status! From a British perspective this story is deeply ironic, back in 2010 the UK scrapped it's entire fleet of Harriers, gapping fixed wing carrier aviation for nearly a decade. We knew it was to save money but one of the excuses used at the time about Harrier was "We judge it unlikely that this would be sufficiently useful in the latter half of the decade". There's no shame in retiring an old platform, but deep stupidity in getting rid of something without a replacement ready to go. A trait we keep repeating to this day, like our current lack of any fixed-wing AWACS after selling our E-3's to Chile in 2021 with E-7's due in... 2025!!!
Well stated.
At least Argentina was considerate enough to attack the Falklands before you had sold the HMS Invincible to Australia.
Well, you do have those silly Merlin AEW helos, so…
I forget which naval battles the RN lost during that time due to lack of a Harrier fleet.
The RN's goal was to save money to afford a return to naval aviation. They accepted a small risk which payed off. That is not "stupid". Stupid is being a slave to nostalgia like today's A-10 fanbois..
As an American, watching the UK quickly get rid of its military is shocking. The people alive there clearly don't remember what happens when countries in Europe do this. Im genuinely so happy to pay taxes here for our beefy military. Ive paid thousands into F-22 raptors and F-35 Fat Amy's. I love it. Have fun fly boys, ill write the check
The same question could be extended to “does shooting down bombers make you an ace?” What about “does yeeting AIM-154’s at targets over 80 miles away make you an ace when they connect 7 times?”
The score from Vietnam was B-52s 2, MIGs 0.
The Luftwaffe counted a B-17 or Lancaster as three kills if I’m not mistaken. Purely a matter of economics?
German aces shot down many B17s, B24s etc and they were included in their official totals. If the bombers are armed with a gun or missile Ithink a kill should be counted. However, transport aircraft and bombers with zero air defense should not count as kills.
@@Redwhiteblue-gr5em tankers and transports are non-combat aircraft. By definition they cannot engage in combat. Bombers have ordnance and are in combat, to destroy targets, that is combat. Even if they cannot target you effectively.
AWACs is where definition gets murky. Is electronic warfare, capable of disabling or destroying aircraft? Dose handing off control of a weapon count as a kill for both aircraft?
@@mxecho or how about if the pilot is out of missiles but has a unguided bomb and drops it into a helicopter without any defensive & offensive weapons, does that count as an air to air 'kill' in 'combat' eh? 😂 funny
I bet any of the crews on the ships that were targets of the Houthi drones would give Captain Ehrhart full credit for his skill at downing each of those drones. In any case job well done!
Always forget the marines use the harrier and cobra but it’s pretty awesome and I wish more people talk about it.
spanish navy uses them too (same as Italian navy) and since only option of replacement is fatamy they are even sugesting extending their life even more as they are still valid for their role
They also use the Huey.
Only replacement is an f35 makes sense it’s still being used not for to long tho I hope, thing is oldddd
@@teddy.d174
That is cool. The old but true Helicopter 🚁 great platform 😊 bet there is a lot of Vietnam war fighters that there lives were SAVED because of quick removal from battle. In my State the big Airbase ( Military) were flying them as ( MAST) units even for off base getting patients to Trauma centers. Especially during heavy traffic when Paramedic units would be fighting traffic jams at rush hours 😊
@@rp1645 The modern UH-1Y Venom (Huey) and the AH-1Z Viper (Cobra) are light years from the old Huey and Cobras of just 15 years ago. And make the ones from the Vietnam thru the late 1980's seem like ancient artifacts.
The Harriers aren't ready for scrap heap yet.
I was a bit surprised by this myself.
They're quite old airframes that have seen a lot of abuse. AV8B is slow and heavy and really based on last generation VTOL technology. They have short legs as well. They are really quite limited in many respects. I love them too but they are on their way out for a good set of reasons.
To be honest, they could do these intercepts with WW2 fighters if they have the guys with the radar direct them in.
@@MrArgus11111 But they what was available at the time, so they got the job done. That what Marines do, they work with what they've got.
@@Chuck59ish Never suggested otherwise. I have Marines in my family. The planes are are just old! Haha.
I like the reference to Spitfire pilots taking out V-1s with wing flips, I think it would be hard to not consider them an ace.
It was extremely difficult to do in a Spitfire - which wasn't really quick enough. The faster Hawker Tempest was much more suitable. It's funny that the only time anyone seems to have caught the tipping over manoeuvre on camera that the aircraft involved was a Spitfire.
The Spitfires had a very short range, so would dive down and engage V1's over southern England. The Tempest could set a CAP over France and take down the V1's over the English Channel - hence no pictures.
Plus they had those tapered wingtips!
Regardless it’s a considerable achievement. Shooting down V1’s was extremely dangerous as they were at the performance limits of the aircraft at the time and detonating the v1 was extremely dangerous…. Wing tipping was just one of the techniques at interception. Showing the skill in multiple intercepting and shooting down any class of aircraft deserves recognition.
If "Ace's" in World War 1 (tallies that still stand) were credited with kills on enemy observation balloons, then yes this status should count as well.
Obviously, WW2 and Vietnam style dogfights are a much harder achievement, but "killing five or more aerial targets" is the requisite and this pilot achieved it
About 50 yrs ago while standing on the fantail of the USS Grasp ARS-24 alongside another shipmate, we watched a Harrier performing touch & goes at Grandi Island RPI Subic Bay. About the 3rd or 4th pass it just stopped and set straight down. We looked at each other in surprise and pretty much said at the same time, "too much San Miguel last night on liberty"! Semper Fi Marine Aviation!
Kudos to the USMC for their usual ability to improvise, adapt, and overcome.
A photo from the Aviationist shows an AIM-9M being loaded onto a Harrier..
Randy Cunningham and Willie Driscoll were not the last American Aces of the Vietnam War. That distinction goes to USAF Capt. Steve Ritchie (pilot) and Capt Jeffrey Feinstein (WSO) They scored their respective fifth kills on 28 August 1972 (Ritchie) and 13 October 1972 (Feinstein). Both were in F-4D, both using an AIM-7, and both of their fifth kills were against a VPAF MiG-21. Cunningham and Driscoll's fifth kill was on 10 May 1972.
You're absolutely right. Also, I think that Cunningham and Driscoll get a lot more recognition due to their First-American-Aces-of-the-Vietnam-War gravitas, as well as their affiliation with Top Gun and their allegedly shooting down of the infamous VPAF 'Colonel Tomb'.
Ritchie and DeBellevue are relegated to runner up status because their accomplishment isn't perceived as 'sexy'. They were both stoic, humble men, while Cunningham always had a swagger and bravado about himself and what he and his RIO achieved.
@@cavemanbum Very accurate. And Cunningham's high-profile public life post-Navy helped that.
It's kinda interesting; Ritchie scored his first kill on 10 May 72, the same day Cunningham and Driscoll scored their third, fourth, and fifth kills (That was a *really* busy day for everyone). And DeBellevue had six kills (four with Ritchie, two with Capt John A. Madden, Jr).
One thing I find particularly interesting is that all 5 of Ritchie's kills were MiG-21s, and all of them were shot down using the much-maligned AIM-7 Sparrow. @@Trigger_Treats
Jailtime 100 is no longer an ace ... must have served honourably !
But Cunningham was an “ACE” in prison.
"Absolutely...yes!" ~ people on ships in Red Sea who didn't get popped by Houthi drones
Bravo Zulu to Capt. Earhart either way. Great idea for recognizing superior performance!
No. Credit where credit is due, and there should be a category of award for this sort of achievement, but it isn't nearly the same as engaging an enemy that will resist and attempt to kill you. Dad and Grandfather were both combat fighter pilots, and this isn't the same as engaging a manned opponent.
Almost like target practice kills.
Lion hunting and rabbit hunting are not held in the same regard.
Gonna have to respectfully disagree. Several of the Red Barron's kills (along with other WW1 aces) were slow moving bombers and observation balloons which contributed to his 80 kills. Similar cases with WW2 pilots downing unarmed transports. A kill is a kill. Besides, drones are becoming smarter as tech evolves, they may eventually be able to fight back against other aircraft.
Maybe it should be gun kills only. Missles are just fast drones. Five minutes or it's free is pretty impressive.
@flagmichael shooting down a fighter is a lot harder than downing a bomber or unarmed transport yet both are classified as kills. Always has been.
Regardless of what label is or isn't applied, this harrier pilot deserves our gratitude and respect. Great job Capt. Ehrhart, and thank you Cmdr. Carrol for keeping us informed.
Great job framing the issues at hand as we move into the 21st Century battlespace.
It's lovely to see you giving the Harrier some attention. It'd be great to see a 'Friends of Mooch' interview with a Falklands Sea Harrier pilot if that's ever a possibility.
Thx for the good intel, Ward. My first thought was the V1 kills in WWII, followed by barrage balloons in WWI. You, of course, addressed these and other types of aerial victories.
Eddie Rickenbacker's 5 victories against balloons are counted in his totals, so id say it counts
Balloons were heavily defended.
Thanks Ward. As an Aussie soldier, I find your VLOGs fascinating.
Ward, having a RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) explain this is utterly priceless. Thank you for this precious channel.
I'm of the mind that if you destroyed an enemy air asset that was either trying to kill *you* or something you're defending, and you do that 5 times, you're an Ace.
And I believe that there should be categories like, fighter ace, balloon ace, drone ace, and the dreaded AI fighter drone ace.
@@00kt86you a pilot?
So, if you spoof an enemy IR missile with a flare, that counts as an air to air kill?
@@ariochiv apples and oranges
@@Ganiscol How so? "You destroyed an enemy air asset that was either trying to kill you or something you're defending."
Also the category of Ace Frehley for anyone who can fly with platform shoes and still operate rudder pedals. Of course silver facepaint is required as well.
Shock Me! Put on your black leather (fighter cap?)...
You have a weird sense of humor. I love it so much.
Also Ace Ventura for the ability to find lost pets with your aircraft's sensors.
😂😂😂
I say this a few times a year, but it’s crazy that the best and most accurate news regarding our military comes from TH-cam. Says a lot about Ward but also about our media. Great job as always!
Difference between downing manned vs unmanned aircraft and attaining a certain status?
"It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
Will Munny - "The Unforgiven" (1992)
Any guy that tells men he is a drone ace will get the reply from me, "I myself am a party balloon ace."
@@TheZX11 say that when those drones were imbound on transports full of soldiers.
@@MrChickennugget360 Say that when those party balloons are inbound on transports full of Pop bobble head collectables. Shooting down low budget cruise missiles is a feat. But it doesn't put you with the likes of Adolf Galland, Addi Glunz, or Chuck Yeager.
I don't think that's relevant - it still counts if the enemy pilot ejects safely.
Huge credit to CPT Ehrhart. Love that a USMC harrier driver has the top drone score right now. I saw so many non-Harrier drivers bash on the Harrier. "It's so slow", "It's obsolete", etc. Glad to see the Harrier, the big deck amphibs, and the USMC get some well deserved credit.
Good to see the Harrier going out on top. Miss that bird.
If the drone can engage in ACM and shoot back, then maybe. Until then, I think a separate category is needed.
Observation balloons and unarmed transports counted as kills for many WW1 and WW2 pilots. I don't think drones are much different. A kill is a kill.
@@Newie69MK does golf count as a sport in the same sense that hockey does? ;) you can win in both...
They gave pilots kills for V-1’s. So why not this?
Merchant marines in the Red Sea would disagree.
Anything that flys and u kill it is an air to air kill doesn't matter what it is missle, balloon, drone, plane, helicopter, jetpack ect ect....
First off… he is flying the AV8 … that’s bad ass enough
I like the scaling ace options. There are too many scenarios to not break up and it is worth honoring pilots these days. Love your videos mate! Respect from Australia 👊🏻
Grading ace status sounds like the best idea. My father was a WWII B17 waist gunner flying 52 missions but I don't remember him saying anything about them counting the number of planes they shot down. I have most of his papers but I don't really know what I am looking at. This is what I see, 2126th Army Air Force Base Unit, Destination England 1943, Highest S/Sgt, Waist Gunner, Normandy Air Offensive, AAF Gunnery Instructor, Marksman Carbine, Service 2 years, 2 months, 27 days, European African Middle Eastern Service Medal, Distinguished Unit Badge GO 50 1st BD 44, Distinguished Flying Cross GO 35 VIII AFCC 44, Air Medal 3 Oak Leaf Clusters, Good Conduct Medal, Lapal Button, Schools Larado TX, Kingman AZ, Amarillo TX, Plane & Eng Mec, Aerial Gunnery, Gunnery Instructor, Flight Maint Gunner, Tow Target Ground Strafing Burst Control Ground Range, ASR Score 100, B17 Tail Marking Triangle G, One B17 named Pistol Packing Mama not sure of the second one he was in. One of the Co-pilots he flew with was Cal Worthington of Worthington Ford California.
Aerial Gunners: The Unknown Aces of World War II, by Charles Watry and Duane Hall. The book confirms SSGT Benjamin Warmer’s nine kills but challenges the claim that he was the only enlisted gunner ace in World War II. It names several others, including three noncommissioned officers who flew with the Army Air Forces.
I think you need a "giant balls of steel" category for the pilot who flew up to V1 rockets and physically knocked them off course.
The other option was to get up close and use your guns - this resulted in a giant fireball immediately in front of you. The fireball entered the cockpit via the air vents leaving the pilots with holes in their shirt sleeves (it was Summer 1944) and burns on their arms.
2 words... Frank Luke 18 kills of which 14 were balloons. Give that Marine his ace status!
Also any ace that ever shot down a V-1
Observation balloons were actually considered much more dangerous to attack than enemy aircraft at the time, though (in much the same way as attacking an enemy airfield is now considered more dangerous than attacking airborne aircraft): balloons tended to be guarded by extensive arrays of AAA gun, which often were larger caliber, faster firing, and more accurate than guns aboard enemy fighters; and which could effectively fire at you the entire time you were in range, not only after maneuvering onto your tail. The balloons themselves often carried more extensive weaponry than the fighters of the day, and like the AAA guns, could be more easily brought to bear on a fighter than could an opposing fighter's weapons.
Not really a comparable situation to attacking a slow, dumb, simple drone that has limited sensors, no defensive weapons, and almost no ability to maneuver defensively.
The drones are closer in capability and risk to the attacker to cruise missiles than to manned aircraft or WW1-style observation balloons
Ace of Spades! My homies. I was a Catagory A* [Apprentice Trainee] on AV8A electrical systems with VMA231 in 1974-75. *There were no basic level formal schools on the British-made, Hawker/Siddeley Harriers then. So junior enlisted personnel were funnelled thru the Squadron for OJT. Tea time with the BAe Tech Reps was informative. And a good way to thaw out after changing main batts up and down the flightline in the freezing North Carolina winter.
🗣I was in a Marine F-4 Phantom Jet Gun Squadron from 1978-1982. RADAR Tech. Four deployments overseas. Participation in at least 5 air to air “missile shoots” firing about 25 Sparrow and Sidewinders. With 100% KILL RATIO. I ask the Squadron XO ,”does THAT make me a ACE?” No Sargent, but it does make you a really good Radar Tech 👨🏻🔧⚡️🚀📡. S/F 🇺🇸
Thanks for this Mooch, didn't realise our Harriers were still in use at the sharp end.
Erich Hartman laughing at this entire debate.
Man is sitting on a triple digit kd
Yeah 352 kills in 2,5 yrs is really bad ass. But then it was a target rich environment. More impressive to me is that he never lost a wing man and was never shot down. He then spent 10 years in Russian imprisonment, when he - against orders - stayed with his men to the end and gave his unit up to the 90ID US - who, in turn 'gave' them to the Russians...(like the Ukrainians and the world now learn the hard way: NEVER trust the Mericans!) Met the man in person in IIRC 1992 on the OTT airshow, he was already in a wheelchair but seemed to be on his wits.
But in real life, this isn’t ace combat, you need more than super pilots to win wars unfortunately (and fortunately for the ww2 allies)
Great video. Happy to hear that an older outgoing aircraft like the Harrier is still out there protecting our people.
perhaps, vietnam's MiG aces during the vietnam war were credited for the Firebee drones they downed
During Vietnam there was a story about an American recon drone credited with a MIG kill. The story was that the drone was taking some photos in the North and was on it's way back to the pickup area out in the ocean when the MIG gave chase, the MIG got too far out over the ocean and eventually ran out of fuel, the pilot ditched and was rescued but the MIG was lost. The drone was successfully retrieved and lived to fly again.
IIRC, balloons were counted towards ace status in WW1.
I like your new "ACE" grading system, Ward. I think it makes sense to differentiate because the people who wrote those definitions in an earlier time could not have foreseen what aerial combat truly looks like today.
let ask the really tough question. Would shooting down a hijacked airliner consider an air-to-air victory?
Currently, yes. The Soviet pilot that shot down Korean Air 007 was credited with the kill.
And as long as we credit the "Balloon Busters" of WW1 or the kills in WW2 of cargo aircraft as Ace's for "aerial kills" then it matters. Obviously, we aren't diminishing the likes of Bong or Jabarra, so maybe we should have UAS aces and manned aces. Still an ace, but the manned carries more gravitas?
Yes.
Thanks for the quick explanation of ace status, past, present and future.
On a somewhat, other notation. I truly believe we are in hot pursuit of finding ways to down drones with a less expensive solution. Such as maybe 5k or less per unit.
My squadron from 1983 to 1987. We had the A and in 1986 the B model. I was never on the Baatan, but I was on the Inchon, Saipan and the Belleau Wood.
Ace, drone ace, black ace (shot down 5 times), regardless, good job!
Where did you find the term black ace? I'm trying to find the term but I'm having issue finding it.
@12 A guy I knew in VFP-63 while flying RF-8's who had flown the Vigilante previously had flown Hueys in Nam. He was shot down 5 times. He referred to that as being a "Black Ace". Though it may have been someone else (we had quite an interesting mix of aviators!). I had ejected out of a TA-4 and showed up with "Crash" as a call sign. The skipper said that I couldn't have that call sign in the squadron until I'd jumped out of THREE airplanes!) Anyway, I took him at his word regarding the Black Ace term. Sadly, he flew into the ground in the PI in an F-14. He was in VF-213 at the time. I was in VF-114.
I'm in the Southern Uplands of Scotland, and in the late 80s I would frequently watch Harriers dogfight high above the moors.
And, true fact, as we buried my mother 2 Harriers did a fly-by, which she'd have loved.
It was still a combat sortie, those were hostile drones, not surveillance. Also considering its impossible to annoint an ace off of manned aircraft, much less 7 kills is still impressive as hell even for drones. Yes, he's an ace
A level flying craft with no deviation to course? I dunno man. Thanks for the update. Keep safe.
Mooch...it's got to be mano a mano to be a "victory". Just my opinion, since a victory is winning a competition, not killing an inanimate object.
I though the harrier was already retired. Is that a Harrier Plus? Interesting to know... That aside, this channel became a very cool place for a closer look at news related to battles and all. That's pretty cool and a niche that, to me at least, has a lot of potential. Congrats on your great work.
These are one of the last units still using them.
@@WALTERBROADDUS I was very uninformed about the harriers still being used by US forces. Never knew they've had radars or could fire amrams. But as you've said, last units and probably it will not take much longer to retire, right? Nevertheless, that's interesting for an aviation enthusiast like myself xD.
@@hmleao according to Wikipedia, there's only about 87 operational. And like another 12 trainers. The West Coast are wings have pretty much transitioned to F-35. I think the last two or three East Coast squadrons are due to retire theirs by 2028.
@@WALTERBROADDUS Thanks for the info, really appreciated.
Just make it a drone ace, fighter ace, and so on.
Don't forget about spy balloon aces.
That make more sense than all the rest
@@AndyFromBeaverton
Someone also brought up the term "Black Ace". (Shot down 5 times)
I'm trying to find the term's origin but I'm having some issue doing so. I'll ask that commenter.
The most unique flyover I have seen, was a Harrier at the Indy 500 one year. It flew down the main straight, stopped and hovered, rotated 360 degrees in place, and departed onwards and upwards at a pretty steep angle. To quote a line from the rock opera Tommy, the crowd went crazy.
I knew about the Harrier, how it performed in the Falklands, and so forth. I'm a mechanical engineer who understands thrust vectoring. But to see it do that stuff in person, was still very eye-opening and hard to believe.
The only other flyover there to be nearly as awesome, was the B-2 Spirit of Washington making a pass low enough that I couldn't zoom my race lens out far enough to completely fit it in the frame when it was straight overhead.
I don't think so, as long as the drone can't attack the plane
Even if the drone’s are not capable of their own AA defense, they are still an air to ground threat. Just like any other stealth bomber.
VMA-231 was on the first Carrier I was on the CV-42. I saw plenty of unconventional operations there. I was in Maintenance but a pilot noticed how interested I was in it and gave me an in seat tour of the cockpit and how they operated the controls!
I book called "A Nightmares Prayer" written by a Harrier pilot is a very good book on how they operated in Afghanistan.
even video games keep track of both NPC, and PVP kills, good grief.
Honestly. And "fighter ace" still counts BVR against an out of date plane with its radar passive.
You've earned my "ace" recognition, Ward. Very well put!
BZ to Marine!
To the entire team of Shipmates that have the watch , Thank you all for what you do and in my book shipmates you all have done your part and consider an Ace in my hart. God Bless you and your families.
Great video, I would suggest we need an ace category for kills obtained with one aircraft targeting the enemy (say an F-35A) and a missile truck in the rear (F-15EX) launching the missile.
Nice segment & quite a worthy, practical idea regarding Ace subsets @WardCarroll.
Interesting. Thanks. I propose another distinction 'Ace alpha class 1' for an enemy aircraft of a higher vintage/generation/capabilities. 'Ace alpha class 2' for an enemy A/C with similar capabilities and 'Ace alpha class 3' for an enemy lower capability...
I left the fleet in 1996, and didn’t know the “Scarriers” got old Hornet radars.
I missed that.
That began to happen in 1993.
I like your Alpha or Bravo Ace idea the best, and once again I thank you 4 your continued service and look fwd to hearing from you again !!
Your solution to how we define an ace makes more sense than anything else I've heard!
Mooch, don’t forget that the LITENING target pod has a laser designator that could allow the Harrier to use 70mm rockets against drones once it locks on. APKWS did A2A testing a few years ago, and there already ground-based anti-drone systems that already use APKWS like VAMPIRE. Plus it would be usable from much longer distances than the gun.
I thought that all Harriers were retired already. I'm happy to hear those legends are still flying and wreaking havoc in the skies. These are one of the coolest planes ever!
Funny that you posted this on the same day I commissioned artwork of this.
Nice that you brought this topic to a discussion Mooch. I wondered about the adversarial nature of the target myself and agree with your suggested gradation. If I remember my history correctly, Rickenbacker earned his spurs against unarmed German Observation Balloons, but eventually became a combat ace in his own right when in the Hat in the Ring Squadron. It's been a long time since I read the history so I apologize if my old brain doesn't get all deyails right.
Good video Ward. I agree with you that categories are needed, however may I suggest the following categories instead:
Fighter ace: Fighter versus fighter. Simple as that.
Bomber Ace: Bomber defensive gunners that shoot down intercepting aircraft.
Interceptor ace: The reverse of a bomber ace. Interceptor or Fleet Air Defense pilots and backseaters (RIOs and GIBs) that shoot down bombers.
Anti-Support Ace: These are fighter pilots that shoot down support aircraft. ISR (Intelligence, Surveilance, Reconnaissance) aircraft, AWACS and AEWC aircraft, Logistics aircraft like the COD, etcetera.
Helicopter ace: These are helicopter pilots that shoot down other aircraft, both helicopters and fast-movers.
Anti-Helicopter Ace: Fast-movers who shoot down helicopters.
Anti-UAV Ace: Aircrew that kill drones using a manned aircraft.
UAV Ace: Drone pilots that kill other drones or manned aircraft.
Kills against close air support aircraft like the A-10 and AC-130, would count towards Interceptor Ace. while if an A-10 or AC-130 gets an air-to-air with self-defense weapons, that counts towards Bomber Ace.
Additionally, this would give enlisted aircrews like those on the Gunship crew, Helicopter Pilot and Drone Pilot tracks, not to mention those in other branches like the Army (whose pilots are usually Warrant Officers) a chance to get that coveted and prestigious Ace title. Officers can't be the ones to have all the fun under the sun!
The USAF had a policy that they intended to count Satellite kills from the F15 ASAT program had that gone beyond a proto-program in the mid and late 80s, no idea of that is still the case now. I tend towards if it cant manoeuvre or shoot back its not a kill.
Semper fi sir. Class 3 Ace.
I’d agree with that solution having subcategories of Ace. I was going to suggest it before you defined it
excellent presentation - as always
Great video on the current news; thanks!!!
Got one pedantic nitpick for you: the original Sea Harrier's designation is FRS.1 (fighter, reconnaissance, and strike), the S being a significant and underrated contribution to the latter phases of the Falklands conflict. The SHAR's midlife update in the 90's upgraded the fleet to the FA.2 (fighter, attack) standard.
Shout out to the busy fuel handlers on the IKE and the excellent Master Chiefs.
May God shine on you as your conduct your heroic exhausting operations.
GREAT video! Thanks Ward.. I'll catch you next time...🙏🙏👍✌️
I like it the Marine is an ace delta. It clears up the issue with V1s. It has bugged me that V1s did not count as they were difficult to shoot down with guns and when they went bang the often knocked out the attacking plane. Thanks as always for great content
Interesting, thank you Ward for your service and your channel which in my opinion extends your service with information and insight in carrier life!
You mentioned some of the Aces that you've covered, but have you covered Dave McCampbell? He's still the leading Navy ace, with 34 kills to his credit on a single 7-month tour of duty near the Philippines in WWII. Some interesting & fun stories in there.
I'm inclined to say yes it counts as an ace. He killed enemy air targets with hostile intent. Really no different from killing a bomber or unarmed recce aircraft. Anyway, all sorts of interesting things have been counted to get historical aces to that level, including aircraft destroyed on the ground, so I don't think there is any problem counting this. Superb job to the Captain and to the intercept control team on the destroyer!
Drone Ace. New category.
8:55 By the proposed ace ranking system a pilot who shot down 4 enemy fighters and one drone would be classified as a "Class Delta" Ace, with the lowest-ranked kill defining that group of five kills. Hmmm... Maybe use a point system? Fighters- 5 points, Helicopter gunships- 3 points, Cargo/AWACS- 2 points, Drones- 1 point. Class A= 25+ points, Class B= 15+ points, Class C= 10+ points, Class D= 5+ points. Yes, that means that a pilot would be a Class D Ace by downing one fighter, which I propose is an achievement equal to downing five drones.
Ward, thank's for another interesting video. I really like the idea of breaking it down to various types of aircraft/UAV's to give our pilots credit for a job well done.
Dude, Grim Reapers DCS cred. Priceless. Now I’m wondering what your handle is in DCS. On a different topic: where the f did the junior come from. Bro you’re hiding sh!t. If in the next vid you have in background a firebird or explorer I’m calling for a music demonstration!
I think that has been answered by RAF pilots during late WW2 .... They count only as decoration tally on the fuselage but not as real adversaries shot down ....
The original Harrier AV-8A, was developed by the British in the 60's. Harrier attracted the interest of the Marine Corps in 1966 because of its unique ability to land and take off vertically like a helicopter. Although withdrawn from active Royal Navy service, Sea Harriers are used to train naval aircraft handlers at the Royal Navy School of Flight Deck Operations.
The second generation Harrier AV-8B was produced by McDonnell Douglas in St Louis, MO. Production of the AV-8B Harrier II Plus was conducted, in addition to McDonnell Douglas' plant, at CASA's facility in Seville, Spain, and Alenia Aeronautica's facility in Turin, Italy. The UK also participated in the program by manufacturing components for the AV-8B.
Specific tasks of the AV-8B Harrier II include:
Conduct close air support using conventional and specific weapons. Conduct deep air support, to include armed reconnaissance and air interdiction, using conventional and specific weapons. Conduct offensive and defensive antiair warfare
The F-35B is now the new vertical version of the Joint Strike Fighter. The Navy & Air Force have purchased the F-35A & F-35C. The F-35B began replacing the AV-8B in 2016, with the AV-8B expected to continue service until 2025.
I like your suggestions for Ace categories, is my assumption right that they're cumulative though? Say you win a dogfight vs an unmanned air superiority drone that was being remotely commanded by another individual, and was being actively controlled by a machine learning adaptive flight model, and the drone has similar air to air weapons capabilities as a manned fighter. Would that classify as both an Alpha and a Delta kill? Likewise a Bravo Delta kill when unmanned rotorwing craft also become a thing. Charlie seems like the one most likely to always count as a manned kill because even if the pilot is an AI, there are going to be people onboard such aircraft, acting as the command and control hub for the drones previously mentioned, or running AWE&C equipment onboard E-2s or E-7s (since E-3s are being rapid retired as soon as Boeing can get the USAF all the E-7s they need). No doubt they may combine those capabilities into a future aircraft design, or even just a systems update for the E-7 if it's got the room for it and the power to run more antennas for datalink to each unmanned drone.
First rate reporting. Thanks for all you do.
Well hell this old man is 2 days late on Ward videos.....Thanks Ward....Shoe🇺🇸
Looking at our carriers makes me think ANYBODY foolish enough to fire on one of our warships should expect a response as if you killed a police officer.
Given that the drones in question have no situational awareness, and no ability to shoot down the attacker, this is like shooting down transport gliders.
Very thought-provoking, Mooch. Thanks !
Top-VN War anti-drone ace Mai Van Cuong shot down 6 Firebee/Lightning Bugs, plus an F-105D Thunderchief (pilot Caras on 4/28/67) confirmed.
He"s an American Ace, as far as I'm concerned. When I first got into combat aviation history i read about Frank Luke: "shot down balloons, bah." I said. My friend said "it was riskier than shooting down planes." I learned something. My understanding is that the Israelis accord very high status to destroying SAM sites, because of grave risk and difficulty. We should have SAM Aces, too.
With hydrogen-filled dirigibles (“Height-Climbers”) it was definitely riskier!
Another fine Mooch Moment.
Small correction: if our Marine drone bagger is recognized as an ace, he would be the first since USAF Capt. Steve Ritchie who downed No. 5 in August 1972. He scored his first kill on May 10, same day that Cunningham and Driscoll notched numbers 3 to 5.
I was secretary of the fighter aces assn. for nearly 15 years (double PhD in Egotism) and will note that no distinction was made among enemy aircraft types. Fits the old VF mantra, "Hey, a kill is a kill."
I won't close with "keep up the good work" because Ward does that anyway!
VMA-231 is the oldest squadron in the Marine Corps, established in 1919. They fought in the 91 Gulf War with these very same airframes, before they got the radar upgrade. Semper Fidelis, Capt. Ehrhart, and all the Marines of 231!