Tomcats 4, Libya 0 - The Real Story of the Gulf of Sidra Incidents
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 เม.ย. 2021
- A few decades before Gaddafi met his untimely demise at the hands of rebels, he made a sport out of provoking the U.S. Navy’s Sixth Fleet assets, primarily by claiming that the entire Gulf of Sidra was territorial Libyan water. He called the line along the northernmost part of the gulf the “Line of Death” and warned that any American ships or airplanes that crossed it would be met with the full force of the Libyan military.
Fighters from the aircraft carrier’s air wing would routinely fly inside the “Line of Death” as part of the American Navy’s “freedom of navigation” operations (aka “FON ops”) designed to prove a commitment to the conventions of international admiralty law that said that the Gulf of Sidra was, in fact, a gulf so therefore the only territorial waters that Libya could claim were those that extended 12 miles off the coastline.
FON ops were generally boring in that the Libyan military didn’t respond at all in spite of Gaddafi’s bluster. Fighters would spend hours on combat air patrol stations drilling holes in the sky without a single vector from the controllers in the early warning aircraft whose radar screens remained blip-free.
The first incident occurred on August 19, 1981 when two Tomcats from VF-41 shot down two Libyan Su-22 "Fitters" after the lead Fitter fired an errant Atoll missile.
The second incident occurred on January 4, 1989 when two F-14A Tomcats assigned to “The Swordsmen” of VF-32 flying off of the USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67) got the call to investigate two contacts that had launched out of Tobruk - a dream scenario for Cold War-era aviators, but one that also had a few dubious moments, particularly for the pilot and his radar intercept officer (RIO) in the lead aircraft.
The rules of engagement at that time were more lenient than previous Sixth Fleet rules had been in that a Libyan aircraft didn’t have to fire at an American to be declared hostile but simply if it had turned toward an American aircraft that had attempted to turn away three times.
The two Tomcats ultimately downed the Libyan MiG-23s after they appeared to jink into the flight more than three times, which met the ROE matrix for engagement in spite of the fact the battle group commander had indicated the weapons status was "yellow and hold."
According to Wikipedia, "The actual intent of the Libyan aircraft on 4 January is not known for certain. Details released three months after the incident revealed that the MiG-23s never turned on their onboard radars, needed to guide their AA-7 missiles at maximum range. The turns by the Libyan pilots prior to the first missile launch by the F-14s were considered too slight to be deemed hostile, according to U.S. House Armed Services Committee chairman Les Aspin.[14] Despite these findings, Aspin said the self-defense claim by the U.S. was still justified due to the continued acceleration of the MiG-23s as they closed the distance with the F-14s, and because Libya had a history of firing first."
While the crews earned the title of “MiG killers,” which makes them part of a rare breed in modern warfare, instructors at Top Gun summarized the lead aircraft’s performance in less than glowing terms, let’s say. It’s also telltale that Fighter Pilot of the Year honors that year did not go to Beads, the squadron skipper but instead went to Munster, the wing pilot, who was only a first-tour lieutenant at the time.
More here: www.military.com/off-duty/202...
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I was there that day in 89, flying with VQ-2 as an Arabic linguist. I know how it actually went down on the other side, and can say your characterization of that engagement is by far the most accurate I’ve heard. Some might not want to hear it, but there actually was no hostile intent from the Libyan pilots. That much was obvious by the fact they never even turned their radars on. It is good to know that behind the public perception of what took place that day, our fighter community took a more honest and sober appraisal.
Thank you
Hey Ken! An arling saved my life and the lives of our VQ-2 crew in the summer of 1980 in what was the predicate event that led to the eventual Gulf of Sidra air combat episodes in 1981 and 1989.. We were flying what was to be the last PARPRO flight into the central med. 100 miles abeam of Benghazi, we detected a fighter launch to intercept us for an easy shoot down. We determined it to be a Mig-25, but who knows considering the later incidents. We spiraled our EP-3 down to the surface from 25K ft as fast as NATOPS would allow but we blew off the HF antennae anyway. I was the NAV and gave flight a heading of 300 to exit the area at low altitude. After our incident, all PARPRO flights into the Gulf of Sidra were canceled and the area was declared off limits.
I could not imagine being in their position...so what it seems, the whole situation should never have happened.
Ken, I was RULing later after you were at DLI, did the Libyan doctrine at the time provide for GCI - ground controlled intercept? Maybe the aircraft didn't have to have their radars ON, as they were guided by the radar on the ground.
@@ds2112 - The Libyans followed Soviet GCI doctrine, where ground control radar operators would vector fighters towards potential targets, until they could acquire targets on their own. The pilots were caught completely by surprise, and just wanted to escape the situation.
I love how brutally honest the flight community is. Only way to get better.
All highly functional organizations have this culture. It’s critically important to be able to exceed the standard. The word of caution is that those involved must also feel supported and free of persecution, otherwise honesty becomes a problem.
Would you like to know why?
@@williamjohnson737 Good point. A safety program is no good if people are afraid of getting in trouble. It's why it's one of the cornerstones of our safety program at work.
It's called code of honor and integrity.
Navy and Airforce value that their performance is based on complex technologie and science. And they always encourage people to learn and get better. Whole sadly in the army that's usually not the case.
Mooch, I just read "Tonk's" post and he's pretty much right on. I was an A6 (VA35) driver attached to AW8 and was pretty good friends with Larry Muczynski and Jim Anderson. Both Larry and I were LSO's. I was airborne during the shoot down and will share my version of what took place:
The day of the shoot down was the second day we had set up several CAP stations with two sections of F14's on each station. We had a tanker about 50 miles from the CAP station and flex deck operations were underway. To my knowledge few if any of the F14 drivers stopped for rest. The guys were pumped. Nobody wanted to miss the action. When they got low on fuel they hit the tanker or came back to the ship for more gas. The Libyans were all over our guys. They were flying Migs, Fitters, Mirage, etc. Mixed in with the Libyan's were Russian and Syrian pilots. They were TRYING to get into position to shoot and they could not do it. Our guys are that damn good. One Syrian flying a Mirage started to work the six of one our guys for a nanno second and that was as close as they came to getting a shot off. Our guys would come back just drenched in perspiration from hassling with the Libyan's. On board the Nimitz we had a spook EA3 with CIA, interpreters, etc. That's how we got much of our intelligence information. Day 2, we had the same set up. The Ruskies were controlling operations and they came up with the following strategy. They saturated one of the mid CAP stations which pulled off a section from Henry's CAP. The section that went to help the saturated CAP station was led by none other than Dale "Snort" Snodgrass. Dale was attached to the CVW8 as our wing LSO. Dale sometimes lamented that he had his chance for glory and missed it because he was pulled off Henry's station. I heard the entire engagement on our common frequency. The first thing that we heard was Jim Anderson (Music's RIO) yell "We've been shot at!" Larry later told me when the Fitter fired their ATOL missile, it looked like a telephone pole coming at them. Then we heard Admiral Compton (I believe it was him) say "I understand that you have been shot at?" During this time, Henry and Larry were maneuvering behind the Fitters. Henry came back and said "Affirmative, we have been shot at." The Admiral gave permission to shoot but by then Henry waxed his guy. We heard Henry nonchalantly say "Splash, Mig in the water." Music was riding the saddle sweetening his pipper when Henry started yelling "Shoot Him! Shoot Him!" A few seconds later we heard "Splash, Mig Down" (Of course, both were Fitters). I believe that Henry's guy ejected and Larry sent his opponent to Allah. Me and my B/N Dave Cuttino (Recently died in a GA accident) were ecstatic, yelling, giving each other high five's, etc. It was an incredibly emotional and inspiring event. I was running low on gas and flew back to the ship. A few minutes later, Henry and Larry came into the break. Henry boltered and Larry trapped. Friends of mine said that Vietnam F4 drivers were so pumped that they often bolted after shooting down a Mig. They spun Music's F14 in front of the island and it was like a scene from Top Gun. When Larry climbed down his Fox 14, he was mobbed by cheering sailors. I was the first guy he saw and we embraced. The same with Jim Anderson, known as the BOR (Box of Rocks). They immediately took Larry and Jim away to be debriefed. When Henry finally trapped, he and Dave were both escorted to be debriefed by the AI's. Within a couple of days, Larry and Jim were flown off the ship back to the States for a goodwill tour. CDR Kleeman was CO of VF41 and had to stay with his squadron.
Post Navy:
Music was a Boat School grad and place kicker for the USNA football team. He's a good looking guy, excellent stick, and all around great guy. He was a perfect fit for the Blues. In fact, they were grooming Music for the Blues when he decided to get out of the Navy. I was "Mr. Airline" and am sorry to say, helped to inspire several of my Navy colleagues to fly the Friendly Skies. I managed to weasel C9's (VR56 Norfolk) and was the Ops officer when I got a call from Music. I thought he was politicking to get into the squadron. He laughed and told me that he was flying Turkey's out of NAS Dallas and just got hired with People Express. Of course, in short order, Larry worked his way into pilot recruitment for the airline. Larry end up hand walking me through the P.E. interview process and got me hired. He also put me up at his home in N.J. I got hired by another airline (A real airline) and turned the job down. Larry had been drinking the P.E. kool-aid and, understandably, was a little miffed. He end up getting hired at Delta Airlines and became a B727 flight engineer instructor. He has subsequently retired from Delta as a captain.
Jim Anderson and I were pretty good friends. I was devastated when he pulled a Sonny Bono skiing.
Henry Kleeman was your quintessential fighter pilot. He didn't look like one but he could turn you into a pretzel within seconds. He had minimum training in the F18 when he lost control of his plane at Point Mugu. The rescue crew couldn't get to him in time.
I barely knew Dave V.
Disclaimer: My account of the 1981 Libyan Shoot Down was from memory as it happened. I was there. I heard what I heard and saw what I saw. I also spoke in detail about these things with Music and Jim Anderson. I could have my wires crossed over a few things but, again, this is how I remember it.
Dan Collura
Thanks for your account of the events and a big thanks for your service, Sir. I was a gunner during Desert Storm in 4th Battalion 70th Armor. We were the tank battalion that destroyed an entire Iraqi Republican Guards division in less than two hours during the battle named "Madina Ridge" so I have my big toe in military history too. Best job I ever had. ✌
Ps. I make multiple posts when I see a video because I'll pause it and make a comment. It's an OCD thing. Sorry. 👍
@@TheMichaelBeck Thank You, sir!👍🇱🇷💯
WOW! Thank You sir, for doing what has to be done. And your willingness to do it. May God Bless you, and all of your compatriots for having served with such honor. If I ever get a chance to take another trip by air, you are the kind of pilot I want!👍🇱🇷💯
@@morganottlii2390 Mr. Ott. Thank you, sir. I am now a retired UAL captain.
Sir, thank you for your post. I was only nine years old when this happened, but was very proud of the Navy!
Great breakdown of the incident. I was the senior intruder on the next launch. If you’re interested, I can tell you “the rest of story” … some crazy stuff.
Old Marine Cobra guy here. I was in college when the first incident happened and was doing a FAC tour when the second one happened. Great brief! My son is a F-18D WSO at Beaufort right now (grad TOPGUN Dec’19, WTI Oct ‘20). One of my daughters is a MH-60S driver in the screaming Indians, just came off of Nimitz, another daughter is a E-2C NFO currently in the Screwtops on the Ike. I will send this to them!
I worked with a USMC Cobra Pilot (Verizon), in Philly, he was done active and was a reservist at Willow Grove, his ACO was one of my coworkers (same company)... I was a reservist Seabee also drilling at WG... after getting them a copy of my orders and pentagram... I was able to go for a ride... we went to McGuire... one of the most awesome experiences of my life...
Now that’s a pretty cool family!
Awesome, Bob. Thanks, Marine!
@@WardCarroll Do you know Flex Destafney and/or Butch Kissick?
@@bobstephenson4391 Yes. (Butch better than Flex.)
You know something bad is coming up when you hear “We will just call him Steve...”
He was saying that in the exact moment that I was reading your comment.
That was what I was thinking too.
Though, in the end, it wasn't Steve who's actions were questionable.
@@Dennis-vh8tz I think you missed something. The scenario is a bit hard to follow but yeah, it was “Steve”, who’s real name I know from folks who are thoroughly informed and who rec’d training on the foul up so as not to repeat it.
@@heydonray What foul up? I’m missing it too. “Steve” is “wing” RIO, right? I listened to this a few times, and I never caught anything that “Steve” did at all, other than apparently fire a Sparrow from 4 miles which blew up one of the MiG-23’s (1200 kts closure is 1 nm every 3 seconds). That was after lead RIO fired two Sparrows at the other MiG, that didn’t guide, apparently. And then, finally, lead pilot can’t figure out why he can’t get a Sidewinder tone. Switch misconfig , right? Flips switch, growl, tone, fire in like 2 seconds. Did he flip to SW with the trigger squeezed? Almost like, luckily the Sidewinder did just pickup the lock before it left the rail, right?
But...what did “Steve” do wrong?? I’m just not tracking.
Ward, great, as always. One slight change. I was at VX-4 with Hank, running his Hornet Tactics Development shop. They were so new we still were flying with beta flight control software (didn’t yet understand transonic flight-another story). Hank was flying Pt Mugu to Miramar, rainy day. Had a planing link failure on takeoff. At that time, there were no indications to the pilot. The cause was the brakes hadn’t completely stopped tire rotation when the gear retracted. The forces exerted bent the planing link. Once gear down at Miramar, that gear was now toed in 18 degrees, but he didn’t know. Once he lost rudder effectiveness (about 80knots) the misalignment took charge and he started doing 360’s.
It’s here that old habits and new airplanes bit Hank. As a Phantom and Tomcat guy, we flew low CG lead sleds. Prevailing philosophy was “leaving the runway, ride it out unless you were gonna hit something”. The Hornet sits higher, on more narrow gear, and is much more tippy. Had we thought it out in advance, he would have been ready to eject leaving the runway. And maybe alive today. Alas, at VX-4, we didn’t figure this out in time for Hank. Cheers, Sluggo
Good gouge, Sluggo. Thanks.
To clear up another point about the final bit of Hank’s death…
When the Hornet left the runway, 90 degrees to direction of travel, the main and nose gear dug into the mud. The airplane then stood up on one wingtip and the radome, and just stopped, perfectly vertical. Then, the radome broke off sideways. This pulled the canopy jettison cable, which popped the canopy. Hank didn’t pull it, and the safety report found it still stowed.
The plane then slowly fell on its top. Hank’s neck was broken in the impact, high (not sure of the level). It’s true his head was in muddy water, but couldn’t have lived with the spinal injury anyway. Hope this helps.
TINS, Sluggo
This bring back memories! I served in VF-41 Black Aces from 1994-1997. This story was told during my tour in the squadron. 20 years Navy. Thank you Sir for the great story. Forever Tomcat!
I'm not entirely sure why your channel popped up in my suggestions, but I'm really glad it did.
Ditto
L
It was interesting, no question.
Same here. I'll drop one for the algos
I'm glad too.
Glad to see this channel growing. Probably the best, most well articulated, least self absorbed, no bull stories and informative videos from an ex aviator on you tube. Keep the content coming!
One of the very best and informative on the tube period.
Full stop !
Can't stand Mover. Self absorbed beyond belief.
Smooch is awesome .. I also recommend the 10 percent true podcast :D
Wow, I've watched and listened to the video/audio of the January 1989 incident many, many times, and never knew before now what a clusterfark it really was. Thanks for the insight and analysis, Ward!
Really, really appreciate the no-bull, no-ego breakdown of these events. Very obvious that you are a quality instructor who understands how ro make complex ideas understandable to a lay audience. Thank you!
I've listened to this exchange at least 10-20 times in the past, you giving the full context regarding ROE and other protocols was hugely helpful. Thank you.
...also seeing an unedited version helps.
This really is the best telling of these incidents I’ve ever heard. Makes it considerably easier to understand the way he described it.
I had heard that the first Fox1 had malfunctioned, but it seems that it was probably not the case.
@@mandoreforger6999 I guess that depends on how liberal the definition of malfunction is being applied.
It sounds more like operator error to me as well to be honest.
@@vtwinbuilder3129 There were errors to be sure. In 1989 the state of the military was pretty green. Not to be negative about our service members, but the US had not been in any major actions since the end of Viet Nam in 1972. There really wasn't anyone on active duty that had seen action. Things changed in the 1990s.
I was working at the base comm center at RAF Mildenhall UK on that day when Operation El Dorado Canyon was launched. I actually notified the base Command Post
and the Wing Commander that we had received the launch order for the mission itself. Mildenhall supported the mission with in air refueling of the F-111's and air reconnaissance from the SR-71 Black Bird. My shift crew and I all received the Air Force Commendation Medal for our participation that day! That was the proudest day of my Air Force career.
I was a shift supervisor at the base commcenter at RAF Chicksands back then, but it was my day off. Didn't know anything had happened until the next day. When I arrived at the base main gate there were SPs in full combat gear and carrying automatic weapons.
My dad was a weapons loader and loaded and or pulled pins/armed the bombs on the F111s that participated in El Dorado Canyon. He hasnt told me all the details.
I clearly recall the SR-71 pass for recon on the SPS-48 on BIDDLE. We huddled around the scope and got 3 blips during the transit....and that was about a 400 mil track within out view.
I was in HS and remember France and Spain refused overflight rights which caused multiple refueling to get there and back. Do you think the additional hours flying time contributed to the lost F111? Was the French building “accidentally” hit?
@@puterbac my 3rd hand hearsay knowledge of it was that the extra hours and nav/ins drift(?) could have contributed to the loss.
Ward, thanks for the great stories. I’m a former AQ, then worked as a software development engineer for Grumman on the A6E, EA6-B and the F14. My career was amazing. I’m a retired guitar player now.
Two great stories Ward. Have been hearing ABOUT these engagements for years but have never heard either story start to finish! Thanks!
Former Marine (20 year) avionics guy here. I was in the Corps when both of these incidents occurred, so I can be pretty objective. Great episode. I really like that you tell the good and the bad in the episodes I’ve seen thus far. I subscribed and rang the bell (rare for me).
What? A Former Marine? I joined a flying club in Bridgeport Connecticut in 1990 that was run by an elderly retired Korean War era Marine Corsair pilot. I told him I “My uncle Bob is an ex-marine”. He said, “Son, there are no ex-Marines. Once a Marine, always a Marine”. I never made that mistake again.
@@jhmcglynn my thoughts exactly. I'm also a retired Marine who served in the Avionics community.
I can't believe that any career Marine from my Leatherneck era (1976-1997) would refer to themselves as anything but a Marine.
Everybody says those kinds of ra ra cliche's. I joined during Desert Shield into armor (recruiter sgt Schwartz) lied and said combat arms is armor. I was a dumb kid who believed all Marines had honor. I spent 4 years active and 4 reserve in the Combat Engineers mos1371. Got to see the world though, Subic bay after Pinatubo blew, Okinawa and we even had a hand in 94 in Bosnia and Somalia with GW battlegroup on a med float. Older you get more you realize all the "actions" were sorry ass posturing's by undisciplined disgusting civilian garbage leaders playing with our guys' lives. Just to make some shekkels by special interests in the next election. That bitch over, Semper Fidelis....Always Faithfull to my brothers and sisters.
Great explanation of those two events. I have watched the tapes before, but getting the play-by-play made it understandable. Nice job Ward.
I love this channel! Keep up the great work Ward! I’ve watched this engagement several times and after you explained it I never would’ve guessed all that was going on...super interesting. 👍
Gotta say these stories of historical events are awesome to hear. Thank for your service sir! 🙏
That's really interesting about the TWS anomaly. I didn't know about that. Great breakdown, thanks for the video. Keep the Tomcat content coming!
Clemann didn't die taxiing. He was landing at Miramar during the early days of the F/A-18. He was CO of VXE-9 out of Mugu at the time and doing Evals of the Hornet. There was an issue with the Hornet's landing gear that this accident identified. The rain puddled on 24R and the gear problem caused the plane to get sideways, it hit the mud on the edge of the runway, the right main mount dug into the mud and it flipped over. The accident actually broke his neck. I worked for COMFIT, RADM NEWMAN, who owned Miramar at the time and had to run over and pick him up at the dentist and to get him over to the recovery of this Class A accident. A sad and unfortunate thing that happened to a great aviator.
Only a thumbs up for the info ... rip that dude
Thank you for the information.
So where does the story come from that he died taxiing? Disappointing that it gets told wrong. I’m not blaming the channel author, here; because maybe he got bad info, too. Too bad CDR Kleemann didn’t pull the ejection handle and get out when it went sideways. But maybe he already knew he was going to flip and didn’t want to be shot into the mud.
@@Andrew-13579 "The Rumor Mill"
His name is spelled “Kleeman” though....
These are great. I have been looking through your library of videos, and really appreciate your insight into these incidents, so many of them I have heard about, and seen the footage, or even recreations, but you really get into it, and explain exactly what happened down to the details. Your perspective, and wealth of knowledge is much appreciated.
A question from the day: "How does a Libyan Wing Commander inspect his aircraft?"
With a glass-bottom boat. 🙄
This comment is underrated
That’s a good one!
I was told that they never sent anyone out to get the guy that ejected and he drowned
really bad taste considering the Victims were not doing anything wrong... I suppose you make jokes about the Vincennes shooting down airliners too.
@@Digitalsharecropper The Libyan Air Force eventually did send out a rescue helicopter, but they were searching in the wrong area and never recovered either pilot, live or dead.
That was a great listen thanks Ward. That tone for lock on would have to be one of the most chilling sounds I've ever heard, no mistaking the intent in the sound.
I’m so glad that I stumbled onto one of your videos. I’m former navy and in a navy family and I’m old enough to know who VF84 was and I also know that VF41 was their sister squadron. I’m now subscribed on your channel. Keep the stories coming I enjoy watching you tell them from a much different perspective.
Thank you for the real time recollections of these combat missions and thank you for your service to this great country of ours!
This is the type of analytical info that most people don't get to see. Really interesting to watch, and graciously narrated. Thankyou Ward.
Despite having watched videos on these incidents many times before, I learned multiple big things about what was going on from this video that I was completely unaware of, one of which is this: If you want something explained clearly and thoroughly and succinctly, ask a RIO to explain it! AWESOME video, subscribed!
Once again, Ward, great analysis. I recall both of these incidents through the "right now" media. Through time you've been able to put out a great description of the events and describe how nuanced they are/were. Absolutely wonderful analysis! I appreciate that!
Ward, I just discovered your channel recently and I quite impressed with the way you deliver these events, as well how well you have done your research. I have always given you a thumbs up, but today, you've earned a new subscriber. Continue the great work! Rich
This is awesome, love the break down. Listened to this engagement multiple times. This is the first time I’ve had another flier discuss the incident.
Well presented, and I appreciate your candor in describing the less than favorable aspects of the 2nd encounter.
Thanks, James. Appreciate the support.
@@WardCarroll Hey Carroll, great explanation, but could you clarify how could only 1 sparrow be guided at one time? I thought they only require CW to illuminate the target as they are SARH, so how could 2 missiles interfere with each other? As you also try to fly DCS, you may notice that in DCS you can happily guide 2 AIM7s at the same time. Is that wrong? Or was there an upgrade to radar or something?
Thanks
Hello Ward, was examining the vast world of TH-cam when I found your channel. As a Veteran of the United States Marine Corps during the mid seventies, I had the honor of serving aboard two war ships; U.S.S. New Orleans (LPH 11) and the U.S.S. Duluth (LPD 6).
Even though I was a grunt Marine, I still love military aircraft especially F-4’s, CH-46 & 53’s, AH-1 Cobra’s, and OV-10 Bronco’s. When we were on the New Orleans, we even had a couple of AV-8 Harriers. What a treat. Also had the “pleasure” of watching an SR-71 take off from Kadena AFB, Okinawa. Have a great night, Sir. Also subscribed.
Naha Radio aka the stage....Semper fi!
Ward, I've watched this for literally 25 or 30 years. You just explained a lot of stuff that I either didn't know or that I completely messed up. Keep flyin', man.
Thank you for taking your time to explain this in such a detail and eloquence.
I’m a military history enthusiast and glad to hear from someone who has firsthand account or has walked in the shoes of a naval pilot !!!
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!
Wow... a very sobering analysis of the 1989 incident. For a lifelong Tomcat and military aviation buff, your story was a splash of cold water for me. Nevertheless, I really appreciate you telling us because it was very educational and thought-provoking. Thank you, Sir!
Same for me, but I serve in the military and specifically the Navy, so I'm not at all surprised by the facts of what actually happened. I'm sure the investigations into what happened, and associated missteps helped to refocus training, procedures, and operations.
They got too excited but good thing that the Libyans were not up for it as well!
I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated your description of this incident. Your complete understanding of how things go and how they are supposed to go brings clarity to the account.
I loved this one Ward! Super interesting accounts of both incidents
I've watched this video several times, never had it explained like you did. Thank you enjoyed it very much!
Thanks for watching, Robert.
@@WardCarroll I served on USS Saratoga was a MR2. Machinery Repairman. Did a med cruise in 92.
I found you on TH-cam and now I see value in it. This particular video strikes close to home with me. You and I were both on the JFK at the same time. I was in VS-22 and flew a com relay mission while all of this was happening. Totally oblivious to what was going on not too far from where we were flying our racetrack and making sure the A-6s could communicate back to our ship. We received a briefing in the S-3 ready room from the four crew members involved. It was enlightening to non-fighter aircrew. I still have my copy of the gun camera video and soundtrack too.
This is absolute gold, Ward. I'm old enough to remember this at the time and that there was apparently some controversy over the shootdown. Then, a good few years ago now, I saw the tape, and while some of it was obscure, I obviously trusted that the lead Rio's calls on the bogey's movements were watertight.
Your comprehensive and dry-witted analysis certainly helped clear a lot of that up. Thanks.
Glad I found this channel as well. Appreciate all the videos and information.
Thank you for this video. I enjoy watching you and C.W. Lemoine go over footage and give us an informed observation of the situation.
Yeah, Mover has good content as well.
Just found you and I love It. Been a Tomcat fan for over twenty years.
I was a member of VF-41 from 1988-1991. I really have been enjoying the videos on your channel! Thank you for all you have done and continue to do!
Keep up the good work! love hearing these awesome stories with such detailed knowledge. It makes the stories so much better and immersive and entertaining!
Wow glad I found this channel. Growing up in the 80s the Tomcat was my obsession haha. Watched Top Gun a trillion times, had a ton of models, no chance of being a pilot due to some health issues, but always loved it. I’m really happy to hear your stories, thanks for sharing.
Very cool video. I remember both incidents. I’m sure many others would love to hear some good boat stories. Maybe a Tomcat incident that scared the snot out of you. Close calls. Funny things. What your deployments were like , things like that. I really do enjoy the Tomcat stories as well. Thank you for it all. 🇺🇸
Thank you for posting this video. Awesome analysis!!
Another great video. I have seen the videos more than a few times and never understood them fully until right now.
This video may have turned out to be a great future training video for new pilots.
I can’t begin to tell you how much I enjoy listening to you talk about the Navy and the Tomcat. Top Gun was such a huge influence on me at a young age. It’s awesome to hear about all of the intricacies and details that you experienced. More Tom Cat and aviation videos, please. Thank you.
If you want badass Tomcat stories you should research Iran’s Tomcat use. Iranian Tomcats were involved in much more combat than American ones. Maybe you already know this.
@@guaporeturns9472 hey, if I was them I’d make good use of those bad boys too!
@@DSToNe19and83 they have been kicking ass with them for years.. not sure if they are still in service or not .. getting kinda old and they have to fabricate all their own spare parts these days.
Holy smokes what a great inside contextual walk through. As a former active duty Marine, I well know reality differs from media version or civilian version. Awesome...
Great analysis of a (remembered)
historical incident. I liked the stop-go vocal record and analysis; you can really feel Leo ramping up the tension (hey, I'd have been hyperventilating). Always good to have a better grasp of the details, and you do a fine job.
So far my favorite story told here Ward and that's saying something! I admire your dedication to telling the true story as best you can. I really admire you for that. Thanks for serving our country too!
I've read a lot about the Gulf of Sidra incidents, but this is a whole new perspective. Thank you.
You’re welcome, Xeno! Thanks for watching!
It's one thing to watch the news about these incidents on TV right after the events and quite another to have an experienced person such as yourself take the time to calmly and professionally break them down and explain the what and why of them. I found this very educational. Thank you for you service.
I remember that CNN did a broadcast when they got the video. Breaking story and all that. They didn't preview the tape before putting it on air. First round you got the "I don't have a F^&king lock" next time it was bleeped. LMAO.
A great insight into the mechanics of the contact. You made it very clear the situation of the pilot stating he didn't have tone and helped me to understand what was happening inside the aircraft.
I have watched a few of your vids and am happy to say I am now subbed.
Great content. Thank you.
Love the detail you provide and the context. Thank You Sir!
Awesome video - learned a lot. I like to study MiG-killers. The F-4 and F-14 are my two favorite fighters in history. Look forward to more videos.
Oooo! I've always wondered about the details of this incident but never got motivated enough to look into it. '86 incident that is. Thanks Ward! This is becoming one of my favorite channels.
Thanks for watching, Barry! Lots of episodes in the hopper, so stay tuned! And tell your friends!
We lost Paul Lorence and Fernando Ribas Dominicci in the Libya raid in 86. The raid itself was Operation El Dorado Canyon.
@@faabound RIP, mates.
@@faabound Thanks. Reading about that on airforcemag.com. The only thing I knew about it before was that was the first time I really heard about the F-111 and remember thinking it was a MEAN looking aircraft.
I love the additional insight you provide here. Kudos for translating the jargon along the way too.
Great war stories. I love the context you provide with each video. Keep them coming. Cheers 😉👍
Ward once again a great explanation of the two incidents, especially the second one, which l always thought was very confusing! Now l’m very clear of what actually happened. Thank you, keep up the great work!
Thanks, Andy!
I am so glad I found this channel. I cherish my ONE carrier landing (helo) as a journalist passenger aboard USS Constellation in 1986. Listening to Ward and Dale Snodgrass is an education in itself. I have been doing standup comedy for 10 years and nothing is more fun than sitting at a table after a few drinks and hearing stories from your peers. You think you know it all but hear something you didn't know every time. It's that way watching these videos. THANK YOU Commander Carroll.
Thank You for your service!👍🇱🇷💯
This is an entirely different perspective on the 2nd GoS incident, one I’d never heard. Thank you so much for providing such expert analysis and clarity!
I've always wondered what followed with the crews of both The Gulf of Sidra Incidents, thank you for that info!
Hey Ward, I was an S-3 NFO during this time on a PACFLEET carrier at the time. Had a buddy on on staff whom told me the whole story as well. Thanks for going into great detail!
You're welcome, William.
Hey Mooch, as a student of combat in general (given my previous profession) it is absolutely fascinating listening to you break these down. I know you're a tomcat guy but could you do more like this? Talking about TTP, theoretical to practical application there of, and engagements in general. Doesn't have to be modern. Sort of a Mooch's dogfights show.
Yup ... I didn't realize that the RIO not only manages but controls (makes the decisions) re: weapons.
Very nice video. I've never seen it covered in this level of detail before (mainly the 89 incident) and blunt honesty is refreshing to hear.
Love hearing these stories from the real deal guys. Could listen all day long. Thank you for all you have done. Even though my favorite fighter is the F16...
Thank you so much for this video, since I heard of this incident, I tried to wrap my head around this.
I've watched it on the history channel and looked at diagrams and public reports and the geometry never quite made sense to me.
Your insight let me finally lay this puzzle to rest, sometimes highly intelligent people can be their own worst enemy
Thanks, Killian.
Ward, really enjoy these post mortems. I was a RIO with VF-51 Screaming Eagles back in the early 90's. I knew about the pilot's switchology issue, but didn't know about the TWS delay causing the incorrect interpretation of the bogey's vector until I saw your video. Very cool. An idea for a sea story: Recall that Bug Roach had a Mae West parachute when he ejected from an A-4 back around '93. He was an LSO legend around Miramar, and his was a tragic loss. I'd like to hear more about how that happened. Thanks and keep up the good work! Lenny "Lipo" Moore.
Outstanding episode...I'm hooked on your channel. Thank you for sharing your expertise and real life experiences.
thankyou so much for this explanation and insight, it was pretty riveting.
Fast Eagle 102, from the 1981 incident, is on static display at the Midland Army Air Field Museum, Midland, TX. The plane captain at the time of the incident, J.R. Baxter, is one of a group of flight deck veterans who did a cosmetic restoration a few years ago. Dave Venlet, along with some folks from the Nimitz, attended the unveiling after the restoration.
Trivia: at the time of the shootdown, 102 had the XO's name painted on it (he subsequently became skipper of VF-41), who became my NROTC CO in 1992-1993. He likes to say the shootdown happened 5 minutes too early, as he was inbound to relieve Kleeman and "Music". I've kept in touch with him over the years, and was able to catch up with him about 5 years ago while I was TDY/TAD in his area, where he told me exactly what happened with Kleeman's mishap (I've since forgotten all the details). He is still doing pretty well overall (had an email exchange with him about 6 months before the pandemic).
She has Cdr Hank Kleeman as pilot and Lt Dave Venlet as RIO. Names painted along bottom of cockpit. I have a photo, but don’t know how to post it.
Makes sense since they were flying it that day. But carrier tradition is that the CAG has his/her name painted on 100, the squadron CO on 101, and the squadron XO on 102. And then you fly whatever bird you're assigned that day, not necessarily "your" jet.
Wasn't Kleemans accident something to do with hydroplaning on landing, the aircraft departed the runway, & flipped upside down?
@@get2dachoppa249 - yep, combined with a gear malfunction or something else that wasn't right with the jet. Again, forget the details.
Love the Synopsis of the incidents from a RIO of that time. Always nice to hear what the community thought.
I don't know how I found this channel but I really like all the detail WC goes into. Great content.
Thanks a lot for your work here and the interesting way you put light on things!
Never once heard this version of the incident. THANK YOU FOR TELLING US THE TRUTH!
I can tell I will be watching this video several times-fascinating stuff.
Appreciate it, Lance.
Hey Ward.. love all of your videos. My father was one of the head drafting engineers in the 50s that design the Sparrow missile for Raytheon in so cal. Keep up the good work...
Glad to see your channel popped up on my screen! Roger that.
Great stuff! As a Naval Aircrewman (S3 Viking) on cruise in VS-37 (1989), I heard this play out on cruise... I never heard this breakdown until today! I always wondered about the “weapons yellow” call from AB, and subsequent launch. Super informative, super interesting!
Thanks, Stephen.
"Hank" Kleemann was my cousin. From what I was told about the accident that killed him, he was serving as a test pilot for something new on the F-18 - maybe an antilock braking system. It malfunctioned and locked up, causing the accident. Anything you could add would be appreciated.
Earlier in his career he had flown F4's in the Vietnam war and served as a test pilot for the Navy's acceptance program for the F14. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1968 or so.
He was the CO of VX-4 at NAS Pt Mugu. Capt Kleeman's landing may not have been sufficiently firm enough to actuate the squat switches to the FBW system. In the F-18 the flight control surfaces move at a certain "inflight" rate of movement, giving it the excellent maneuverability it has. On landing, squat switches on the main drag links engage, and any movement of the stick moves the control surfaces in the "ground" mode, or about 3/4 less than the flight mode. If one makes a soft touchdown in the jet to where the squats don't engage, and then deflects a control surface (countering a crosswind for example), the resultant control surface movement is enough to roll the jet over at touchdown speeds, that's what happened in Kleeman's case.
One of his mistakes was that by "habit" he utilized rudder for runway alignment corrections. In the F18 this is a Grave mistake to make, even conducting an aerobrake procedure to bleed airspeed before putting the nose down. Floating the runway surface and the High Lift of the Flaps and wing configuration will keep the FLCS in the Hi YAW,PITCH/Roll Config. But the aircraft is not flying it is Creating drag in the Air Compression between the Wings and the Runway surface. on crosswinds this is deadly. this is why in the F18 Aerobraking is a Mistake in Cross wind or direct into the win component landings. It should only be used in the event of a Brake Failure. In a non cable equipped airfield. Miramar is not far from the San Diego Coast and the airfield always has a 10-30 knot wind coming across the west runway. The landing was normal until about three thousand feet feet down the runway when braking was apparently initiated and hydroplaning ensues immediately. The airplane began to drift right, departed the runway at a speed of about 72 knots whereupon the right main mount settled into the soft, wet earth. The airplane began to swerve farther to the right as the left main mount entered the earth and the right wingtip dug into the ground. The airplane flipped inverted and came to a halt upside down and heading in a direction roughly 320 degrees with the engines running and the canopy separated from the fuselage. All of this occured very rapidly, and the tower operator immediately went into action issuing the warnings over the radio and telephone and rolling the crash trucks. The first crash truck arrived at the airplane at 9:11. They found the pilots helmeted head jammed into the soft earth with a mixture of rainwater and jet fuel filling up the depression it had made. There were several serious concerns which the crash crews needed to consider. There was the presence of leaking jet fuel and two engines still running, an ejection seat which had been arrested in mid ejection sequence and still ready to explode as well as an injured pilot whom they had to extricate from an airplane which was crushing him into the earth. But, they determined that the pilot was alive after the ambulance reached the scene at 09:22. The crane arrived at 09:30 to lift the airplane and extricate the pilot. Meanwhile, being unable to reach the engine throttles, the crash crew extinguished the engines with water. By 10:00 the seat was made safe by an escape systems technician. Six minutes later the airplane was lifted clear of the ground and the pilot removed. At 10:31 the pilot was pronounced dead. Cause of death was determined to be a transected spinal chord which occurred at impact with the ground. Natops warns against using aerodynamic braking in a high cross wind situation and Capt Kleeman had a habit of doing this. I believe he was fairly new to the F-18 (checking out when he assumed command of VX-4) having flown F-4s & F-14s during his career. A very sad day in Naval Aviation.
@@jackcook6644 Thanks for the information.
Well, he definitely wasn’t taxiing, it was a landing accident...or mishap.
From what I’ve learned, including from this channel, use of rudder was important in the F-4 and F-14. The F/A-18 was just an all different kind of animal, I guess.
Then LCDR Kleeman was my Maintenance Officer, MO, in VF-32 in the late 70s.
@@wrmyers Thanks for responding.
Thank you Sir, this content is exceptionally detailed, grounded with authenticity and immersive. It provides absolute clarity in envisioning events. Keep up the great work, thank you for your service and I wish you great success with your channel.
From one guitar nut to another: Thank you for putting the effort into making these highly informative videos. I know too well that it's difficult to call out a colleague on even minor errors, but the net result is a better, safer and more professional environment to operate from. Monday morning quarterbacking sucks, but the fighter community does it in the best possible way to achieve the best possible results. My utmost respect and admiration to you and your fellow brethren.
Always appreciative of the content you give us, I never knew there was a first incident involving VF-41 and SU-22s.
Yup the previous day they were going up against MiG-25s.
Mooch, I really enjoy your channel. I served in the Marines from 68-72 as a Sergeant working on F4-J AWG-10 Fire Control Systems, my last squadron was VMFA-232 before their last tour in Vietnam. I loved what I did, but I am sorry to say not every Marine did. We had a hanger queen with a down radar that no one could fix for nearly 3-months. I had heard it had been sabotaged by a short timer so I decided I will troubleshoot the radar around the clock until it was repaired. The Westinghouse tech rep and I worked on this bird for days. Finally, as we scoped every signal in and out of the system, I discovered that one side of a connector in the receiver tracking logic had a good signal, but on the other side of the connector it did not. The SOB that sabotaged the system had reversed two coax cables. He is fortunate I did not know his name else I would have contacted the CID long ago. The radar came up, we up’d the aircraft, and she flew a sortie the very next day. Whoever you are I hope you see this post, you failed, that aircraft flew many missions after you tried to sabotage it. I have just one question for you - WHY?
You may never know, someone will out that guy.
I was glued to my seat for both. Thanks for the stories. They’re riveting.
I appreciate what appears to be your honest insight into these events. Thank you.
Interested to see that the fighter community is way more self critical than Top Gun would have you believe.
Having read a few books on the program. Criticism and analysis of aerial actions certainly appears to be 2nd nature to those guys
No, I think it's more than what the public - particularly the anoraks - would have you believe. Yes: fighter pilots are an aggressive lot but they're not just idiots, whanging around the sky shooting things down at random. I'll always remember Pierre Clostermann's criteria for judging the German _Experten_ he came up against: _"Both prudent and sure of themselves..."_
Top Gun and The Right Stuff are caricatures of the real thing. (But I still enjoy the movies immensely!)
I guess the high-fives and back slaps are to be expected in what was basically a recruitment/PR tool. Good to know that things aren't quite so gung-ho in real life.
There are Top Gun the movie times as well. Can't remember how many times we helped the pilots up the Hornet ladder and the first thing they did was gang load the O2 to clear their hang overs. Or the time the skipper was drunk as a skunk on a street in Olongapo while half the pilots and RIO's (equally as inebriated) surround him less than 8 hours before the flight schedule began.
Yeah, they'll analyze the hell out of an incident but they still pull stupid shit.
Amazing explanation of what actually happened!!! Thank you also for serving our country!!!! We The people would not be...without your service!!!! God bless you!!
I was a student at the Air Command and Staff College in the fall of 1981 and we had the crew come and give a classified briefing to our class.Really enjoying your channel
That still shot with 202's kill marking on the nose was actually taken by myself. At the time I was with a Navy reserve unit out of NY assigned to JFK. We arrived a little while after the incident. Flying from the US in a C-141 into Sigonella and on to the boat via C-2, then riding JFK to Norfolk. I submitted that shot , amongst others to Navsource. You have a great channel here, but as an old Phantom Phixer I would like to see something of F-4's done. I always thought that the video recording released back then sounded a little off, but that just an old metal smith/plane captain's opinion.
Shortly after this incident, a local radio station dj used real audio from the pilots of the F14's and Kenny Loggins Danger Zone song and compiled it beautifully. Wish I had a copy of it today!!!
Hi Ward. I love your channel, great information always. I have a question on the Libyan ops. In 1979, I was the enlisted sensor operator on the S-3A Viking. My squadron (VS-33, North Island) was deployed aboard the USS America. Many of our S-3 sorties in the Med were into the Gulf of Sidra to draw out the Libyan fighters. In subsequent engagements when the Libyans were shot down, were any S-3s used as decoys? I can't begin to tell you how exciting it was being a 20 year old kid and being involved with such historic events. I later went on to become a WSO in RF-4Cs and F-111Fs, with the Statue of Libya Raiders (48th TFW) at RAF Lakenheath. Thanks for all you do, and thank you for your service!!!
Great video. I really love your knowledge and how you break down the combat scenario!
Thank you for putting the record straight. You seems to be a person with high integrity (and a good taste in music).