Questions about Nicean consensus predate the 20th Century, and are found back in the 19th Century as well, while also underlying many of the debates amng different sects in Europe centuries prior to the 19th. The same debate pre-dated Nicea with the early Christian church, with local doctrines being infused into local teachings among the different churches throughout the Mediterranean. The New Testament is mostly filled with Paul trying to keep the churches on track, once you get past the 4 Gospels. The New Testament documents this clearly.
Isn't it stated that there was 1 who voted against? Then exiled? Seems odd considering it was supposed to be an area of dispute for many, yet they get there and then all agree.
Hey Ryan, great video as always. I do have one serious question. You've mentioned here (and also in the video about creeds and councils) about the church's desire to focus on the "clear meaning of scripture". What evidence is there for this assertion? How do you square this with the numerous times that the fathers appeal to tradition in their writings (as per the Catholic view) and the fact that a new testament canon had not yet been formulated?
I find it hard to believe the position held by Arius was something new. There was no formal teaching of who Jesus was in the Trinitarian view, as it is defined today. Arius had no problem calling Jesus God/god, he was the only-begotten god Jn 1:18. The Word was brought into existence prior to time, both he and YHVH existed outside of time. The Word was the only thing God the Father, created, begat, produced or what ever word we wish to use, to discribe the method to bring His Son into existence. Origen, was an Arian, in his theology long before Arius was alive.
Arian Said that Jesus was a great prophet of God Like What Muslims say about him. But today You are being Used by the Same Evil Nicea Church. Islam Says that Adam, Nouh, Ibrahim, Mousa, Isaa (Jesus), Mohammad, And many other Great men were prophets of God and all were Muslims and Asked the people to warship one God. The Nicea Church made all the Known and unknown Crimes to Stop the real religion. And 10 Years before the the Prophet Mohammad was sent to humanity the Last Arian Kingdom was destroyed. Those Stupid Nicea(Orthodox,...) didn't know that the Greater threat on the Evil they made was to Come from the dry valley of Bakka (Macca). A descent of Ismail the Son of Ibrahim that will Light the world again was sent a prophet to all the world to continue the path of Adam, Nouh, Ibrahim, Mousa, And Isa (Jesus), His name is Mohammad and he changed the world. You As Christians in the west didn't Know the Arians because the Orthodox church wanted them destroyed so you cant see the truth. Here in the East in the Holly Land People knew the Truth and followed The Prophet Mohammad as he said what Ibrahim, Mousa, and Isaa (Jesus) Said about God. Note: Arians was before the establishment of Orthodox Church and took the religion from Masters not just from wrongly translated books and they are not Catholic.
And I know I have some Language mistakes and this is what happens when some one talk other language. People who made the first versions of the bible that was widely used that time wasn't Syrianic or Like you Say Assyrian they translated what they where told and Since the Sami Language Like Assyrian, Arab, Old Hebrew use different terms and rules than Greeks. None of the Bibles where 100% correct. And Since the Greeks had old believes of human Gods and sons for those gods they changed Isaa (Jesus) religion. so people who studied in the Syrian Land and near places Like Aris (The head of Arians) (He Studied at Antalia) stood hardly and died trying to stop this change. Because they new the true religion. While Orthodox where Like ISIS even some times worst. They Tortured,Poisoned, Beheaded, and even Burned every one that says that there is one God and that Jesus was a great Human not a God or Son of God.
@Ryan Reeves These lectures are excellent. Have you considered doing a historical overview series about the Old and New Testament? I would love to see those. History is so helpful in putting our faith in perspective.
Here is what Arius and his followers taught about Jesus. "he is from things that are not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and "there once was when he was not", saying too that by his own power the Son of God is capable of evil and goodness, and calling him a creature and a work.
Thank you so much for your lecturers, I love them. Regarding St Nicholas slapping an Arian - you say " certainly is true St Nicholas did do this..." What sources did you get this information from as some are not so sure that this happen.
No. It's just highly figurative, using metaphors and similes and some idioms and the like, both as the standard way of expressing basic statements in the languages they were written (much as we often do in English today), and to explain these complex, unworldly concepts to mere mortals. That wouldn't be all too difficult in and of itself, except people have a habit of assuming all language in the Bible is strictly literal, and getting very worked-up over the minute ins-and-outs of terminology. Note that people didn't typically have these sorts of problems with Paganism.
One striking error I find in the interpretation of John 1:1 is in Yeshua's being referred to as the Word..Logos. However it says that Word was with God and the Word was God...the Word emanated from God, the Word is not the same as the One that spoke it into existence. The same goes for when Yeshua claims to be the "Way", the "Way" is not the same as the destination...That said, once more, if Yeshua is the Word, then surely he did not exist until God spoke the Word into existence...In other words, ex nihilo just as Arius believed...
Logos is far better then the English word. logos is divine reason and creative order. This mirrors the the universal divine reason and the creative order shown in the space and time and order of material in the universe. Greek is far better then KJB mistranslated Greek.
Thomas McEwen The point I am trying to make is that Logos is not God, but an expression of God's love for mankind. This to me indicates that Yeshua is not God, but an expression of God's love. Yeshua therefore is not God. So saying that the word was God or is God is a contradiction. Word's have a beginning and an end, they are finite, not infinite. Arius was making this very point.
Stephen Webb No logos is the Why and the what. It describes why God created the universe and how, it was done for God's purpose and design. I have a real problem with the term Yeshua. Greece conquered Israel around 360 BC and Hebrew had been lost in the exile. Greek was the language of Israel, the conquered speak the language of the conquerors, it how life works. The Septuagint was in Greek the signs that were in the Temple was in Greek the burial urn of the chief priest are in greek the letters of Paul are in Greek the three gospels of Mark Luke John was in Greek Matthew may have been written in Aramaic then Greek, since greek was the educated language of Rome, Pilate spoke Greek Jesus lived an hour's walk from a rich Greek city and he read a greek Jewish quote from the Septuagint out loud. No one ever called Iesous Yeshua, the rabbi in 97 AD reinvent Hebrew after the roman defeat and the Christian influence in the synagogue. Other then that I enjoyed talking to you, we still have Arianism today in Islam not good at all.
Islam is more like the Ebionite's following. In fact many of the Ebionites settled in with nomads in the middle east. I'm not saying that the Arian way hadn't some impact, but long before Arius the Ebionites were in the Arabian peninsula.
+Thomas McEwen You can take as much issue as you want with my use of Yeshua, that won't change because you should know that when people say Yeshua they mean "Jesus" or "Iesous" - taking issue with this is not a matter of correctness, but your own personal preference. While it may be true that the conquered often adopt language from the conquerors for the most part, there are always elements that refuse this intrusion such as rebel factions - I don't think you'll find any essene, or sicarii referring to Yeshua as Iesous, so kindly get over it, you know what I mean.
At the conception of Jesus, the presence of Elizabeth should not be ignored, nor the subsequent birth of John the Baptist, and further light should be shed on the "he who will be first shall be last" theme... Also, quite obviously Mary had to have tutored Jesus in what her beliefs were about his conception, yet the issue is never addressed. Zoroaster is never mentioned, nor Isis........Belief just materializes in Jesus' head?? Did mommy tutor jesus? and later on in his life John baptized him....which in a way indicates superiority of John. All the B.S. about Roman religion has nothing at all to do with Jesus.
Tarragon Mugwort Well, Arius didn't just say Jesus was just a guy, like the Unitarian Universalists do. Jesus was the supreme being over all and before all creation, according to Arius, but still a creature made by God before God made anything else. That's my understanding of what JWs believe, too.
Jesus had said "Those who LOVES Me Follow my teachings" John 14:24 "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ....." It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to THEIR DOGS(gentiles } Matthew 15:22-28 .. Bible says these come words from mouth of Jesus himself! To my knowledge, the Biblical silence on the gentile’s salvation parallels its silence concerning the issue of the ‘trinity’, and your alleged divinity of Jesus . I have not come across a single Biblical passage where Jesus is explicitly reported to have claimed to be God; but he had instead repeatedly announced the complete antithesis of this (c.f. Matthew 24:36, 26:39, 23:10-11 Mark 12:28-34, John 17:3, 20:16 (“ …. I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”) etc.).
Can I ask you Ryan, what is Arius' stance on where the Holy Spirit belongs in terms of his creator-creature distinction? Is the Holy Spirit in oneness with God or?
As Arians have the same thinking like us Muslims. Jesus is a Prophet (That what muslims Say) like Nouh, Ibrahim, Mousa, ... The Holy Spirit is Gabriel The best Angle God created. Gabriel is who tells the prophets the Verses. Aris was a normal man raised in a family that followed Isaa (Jesus), He learned in Antalia near Syria after coming from Libya where so many People knew the True religion of Jesus. while the Nicea Campaigh head was a man originated from Persian religion family that didnt worship God. But he was helped by the people that wanted to destroy the religion of Isaa (Jesus). He mixed between the old religion of Greace were Men are called Gods and there sons are Gods or sons of Gods, Some parts of Persian religion of worshiping sun, and some of Islam that Jesus introduced. And he made the new religion falsely called orthodox while in reality it was a new religion. Aris fought hardly to stop the false religion and people in the east and especially Holly Land in Palestine supported Him , but Constantine made many of them sigh against Aris because he didn't worship God . Any Way Aris didn't gave up and he asked his friend who learned with him in Antalia help Aris Friend communicated with Constantine mom who believed in that time in one God and he was allowed to sit with Constantine for long time to tell him about Jesus religion. And after years things changed and Constantine became Arian and Started changing the heads of states and on of them was the Evil Iskandarian that had many crimes. Lastly Aris was invited to Constantine City and the Nicea men felt he will become in charge in the city and wanted him to dye in Public. They poisoned him. An while being welcomed as a hero he started spiting blood his stomach exploded and he died. Later the Nicea People will Start a black age searching for and killing every one in the Emipre that say tere is only one God and Isaa ( Jesus) is a great man sent to teach us the truth. Hundreds of years will pass where People will be Tortured, Poisoned, Beheaded, And even burned by the Orthodox Church. But resistance will Continue by the Arians. Kingdoms will form and resist in all directions of the Roman Empire. The Last Kingdom will be destroyed about 10 Years before Prophet Mohammad was sent to Humanity. The Great Man will be born of the Holly Valley of Bakka (Macca). The Cesar of Rome will be Stunned by the Prophet Mohammad Message to him reminding him of what he thought no body would remember or know. The Cesar Afraid from The Orthodox causing unrest in the empire will refuse Islam. The Roman Army will be destroyed by a so much smaller Army Coming from Arabia The Holly Places in Palestine will soon be in the hands of Muslims. People in Syria,Egypt, ... will become Muslims and fight Against Persian and Roman Empire. Persian Empire will b invaded by Muslims and People will see the truth and become Muslims. Roman Empire will be reduced day by day until what Prophet Mohammad Asked Happen A Great Muslim Man Will Take Constantine City And Year After Year The People will become Muslim and the City become a City with A Majority of People who believes in one God.
I knew Superman punched out a U-boat once but I had no idea Santa hated Nazis too. Who delivered the presents in the Third Reich then? It must have been Blitzen that damn sympathizer, they should all have been interned...
Black or at least non-white/non-European. So in this sense, yes that would be entirely accurate. The center of Christianity was Africa, Asia Minor and out East for most of its early history. We have forgotten this a lot today, mostly because the majority of these lands are no longer Christian. But Europe was not the origin of Christianity, of course, so paintings where they look 'white' are often not racist (at least not intentionally) but rather they just painted things to look like the only people they had ever seen.
Robert Bonneau No, he was not a Homosexual. That was a vicious rumor. I think he had about 10 kids. Many didn't like him and why Guy Fawkes tried to murder him. Do you know who Guy Fawkes is?
To say that if we say Jesus was created then that means he could not die for sins is where the Bishops errored at Nicea because Jesus was the first born of all Creation. In Collosions 1:14-15 14in whom we haveredemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.…" Therefore yes, Jesus can be created as The Son of God and still save us.
If you deny either the Father or the Son, that's the Biblical definition of an Antichrist. Saying they are one and the same means one or the other has been denied, making Jesus a Hindu avatar god.
The problem is with literalist interpretations of holy texts -the doctrine of the trinity is a metaphor for the evolution of thought about God -from the severe, legalistic God of the O.T.(and Islam for that matter) to the forgiving non-legalistic God of the NT incarnated in Jesus to the ongoing inspiration of God(The Holy Spirit) All religious discourse about the divine is couched in human terms and uses words like father,son, beget etc -not to be understood literally! If God is omnipotent he can do anything including incarnate himself.God is at the same time a simple and complex being .So he can be both an unity an a trinity -bit like quantum physics where something can be something and its opposite at the same time.
Believing that Jesus is God is a result of receiving salvation from God. It’s not something to be argued. I feel if a person argues the deity of God but denying it, then he is more than likely not even a follower of Christ. The divinity of Christ was answered long before Arius and Nicea.
Arius called to the oneness of God without the influences of pagan theologies.. Trinity is shared between mainstream Christians now and Hindus, Greeks, Egyptians as well as Babylonians, trinity actually predates Jesus and is flawed from many perspectives.. Father and Son relationship between God and Jesus is a mistake in translation from the original language of Jesus. I call the readers to probe the teachings of Arius from an unbiased view and give it the benefit of doubt.
And I know I have some Language mistakes and this is what happens when some one talk other language. People who made the first versions of the bible that was widely used that time wasn't Syrianic or Like you Say Assyrian they translated what they where told and Since the Sami Language Like Assyrian, Arab, Old Hebrew use different terms and rules than Greeks. None of the Bibles where 100% correct. And Since the Greeks had old believes of human Gods and sons for those gods they changed Isaa (Jesus) religion. so people who studied in the Syrian Land and near places Like Aris (The head of Arians) (He Studied at Antalia) stood hardly and died trying to stop this change. Because they new the true religion. While Orthodox where Like ISIS even some times worst. They Tortured,Poisoned, Beheaded, and even Burned every one that says that there is one God and that Jesus was a great Human not a God or Son of God.
ahmad shoumen I am Assyrian. We received the Gospel from Thomas. John 20:28 Thomas called Christ his Lord and God. Please do not misrepresent my people and please do not comment on the Bible if you've never read the whole thing which I am sure you haven't.
0mnm you are wrong. No trinity existed the way the true biblical triune nature is represented. The triune nature is shown through the entire Old Testament and you can ask me and I'll give plenty of passages proving that
It's sad how many heretics are commenting below (i.e. those that deny the Trinity). On another note, it's also sad how many people have absolutely no ability to communicate their ideas via a keyboard. I'm reading some of these comments and I'm like "What in the world did you just say?"
that doesn't exaactly answer the question, does it? after reading the book in the original greek, I could still come to a different conclusion to you. If I don't know your point of reference, how would I know what is heresy? I believe the objective truth cannot be found through rationalism, so I don't think I could know what you know if I read the bible, since I believe that I would come to a different conclusion.
Whether or not you come to a different conclusion than me is really irrelevant. My opinion and your opinion have nothing to do with objective truth. The only thing that is relevant to objective truth is objective truth itself. Some might say that I'm just talking in circles and that's fine --- I've heard this before. Anyway, the Bible make it clear that you must believe that Jesus is God or that you will not be saved (e.g. John 8:24 and Exodus 3:14). Therefore, if anyone denies the Trinity, they are NOT saved. If they are not saved, then the Holy Spirit has not come upon them. If the Holy Spirit has not come upon them, then try as they might, they will not be able to come truth about the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:14). This is why two people can read the exact same text and honestly ("honestly" from a human standpoint; from God's standpoint, without the Holy Spirit, we can do no honest thing - See Romans 3:10-18) inquire about its meaning and arrive at two completely different conclusions. As a side note, forgive me for not knowing this, but I'm pretty sure that Oliver Cromwell was a Trinitarian, was he not?
Pavle Bujanovic he was a puritan protestant, and I'm pretty sure he was a trinitarian. What do you think about the book of Thomas then, where he says that Jesus was incorporeal, and that was the reason his finger went through Jesus' hand? This was the form of christianity that was believed by indians along the west coast of india from about 5-10 years AD.
Oh, who is equal to the task of dividing accounts from the past and sifting truth much less clarity from those vague sources. I mean, what does this do for the average person wondering how to escape the terror and finality of certain mortality. A weariness to the flesh, to the spirit, to the ever elusive soul.
Simon Brown. There were not a bunch of monks at Nicea. The Roman Catholic Church was not yet even established. The nearly 300 Bishops who attended the council were the pastors of different churches from Antioch to Palestine and Jerusalem to Alexandria. I take from the tone of your comment that you are a Modalist. Thus the level of your negativity.
Pluralism notion of God is against the entire Hebrew bible which JC and apostles to follow. He even says in Mathew 10:5-6 and Mathew 5:17 his movement is only for the Jews and to follow all the laws from Pharisees.. The entire NT full of contradictions errors and does not even match the original koine Greek pre Nicene scriptures. So many additions and changes made admittedly by roman and Europeans including 1john5:7-8,John7:53,John8:23,Mark16:9-20...et al. These church fathers also changed the Hebrew Bible to fit their NT. Martin Luther,Erasmus and even Sir Issac Newton knew and stated this. Trintity man-godism is idolatry and was never part of original church in Jerusalem of James and Peter. You are following "Paulianity" with Nicaen creeds.
motorhead Right on!! And even the Old testament books give instruction to refer to specific books that aren't even in the bible!! The bible is a severely manhandled book of books. 2motorhead songs,I Don't Believe a word. and Liar!
The six pillars of iman "faith" in Islam Belief in Allah; Belief in the angels; Belief in the revealed books; Belief in the commissioned Messengers (peace be upon them). Belief in the resurrection and the events of Qiyamah. Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad.
The Almighty God created the holy spirit and casted it, true Gabriel into the womb of Maria, out of which came Jesus. Born of a mother without a father, like Adam was born without a either a father nor a mother.
Jesus can't be God, he is from God, he prayed to God his Father. When asked about the Hour, he did not know the answer. That is proof he wasn't all knowing as God is. What's so hard to understand. God is ONE, he begot a son, and used the holy spirit to inspire humans towards truth. Triity is pure paganism.
The biggest mistake the early fathers made was that they did not talk about the trinity in the Bible. But rather came up with their own which is still confusing to many. The Bible trinity is the best and simple that no body disagree with it. Jesus is the word of God and the word of GOD has no begining and no End. The Word is the creator because God is the creator. It is all in the gospel of John. The word of God that has no beginning or no end came into the world as the Son of God in the flesh therefore God in the flesh. The early church fathers gave out allot of confusion with their own version of trinity rather than the bible version of the trinity. Even the Muslims says the word of God has no beggining and no ending except they do not believe that the word came into the world as the son of God. Another word they believe in the word as eternal and divine but do not believe it came the world as a human being. Thus the Bible trinity is the best and most simple one.
Oliver C What error, there is the Septuagint read by Jesus in the synagogue and quoted by the apostles 300 times and the 27 books, the four gospels whose author's name was assigned by the apostolic fathers. Well, Thomas Jefferson took his bible apart so can you, Luther did.
Oliver C The greek Jewish bible I am talking about the bible translated by 70 rabbi in Alexandria in about 220 BC since the Jews had lost their Hebrew. The books of the bible were selected by the writings of the apostolic fathers and tradition. Because it was so important three councils were assembled the Greek bible of the Septuagint and the 27 books also in Greek was canonized in 397 AD at Cartagena. There was never a canonized Hebrew OT the system was oral not written, those who sat in Moses seat gave interpretation, an the ancients had good memories Homer's Odyssey, Iliad was quoted and only written down 300 years later. The council of Jamina canonized the OT in Hebrew in 97 AD because the destruction of the temple system and the oral teachers. Plus they blamed the greek language for their defeat and the inroads into the synagogue by Christians, two more revolts later the Romans detested the Jews as traitors at the last revolt the rabbi selected a Messiah who was not Jesus and the Christians rejected him and the Christians were forced out of the synagogue starting in 132 AD. You seem to have a modern 19th century wiew of history.
Oliver C The Jews lost their Hebrew in the exile, the Greeks about 360 BC conquered the land and the conquered speak the language of the conquerors if you want to live. Maccabees wrote about the revolt Against Greece and it was written in Greek. Greek was the language of the Mediterranean, Konie Greek was the trading language. Ptolemy II about 220 BC ordered the writing of the Septuagint by 70 scholars because the Jews had lost their Hebrew or Aramaic. This was Septuagint was read orally in the synagogue by Christ, quoted by Paul and the apostles. It was read in the Temple, the signs we have found in the ruins are in Greek the burial urn for the chief priest is in Greek. The Jews invited in the Romans to push out the Greeks Greek was the language of Rome's elites. There was zero Hebrew with the defeat in 70 AD the Temple system was destroyed alone with the oral teaching. The rabbi at the Janina in 97 AD blamed greek for their defeat and the Septuagint was being used to Christianized Jews. The Jews isolated themselves and after two more revolts were seen as traitors by Rome. Your understanding of history is American not European Karla university Prague founded in 1348 AD my church was founded in 1285 AD in malostranske. Paul wrote good Greek the gospels of Mark Luke John are in greek, Matthew may have been in Aramaic then Greek the bible in Greek the Septuagint and the 27 greek books were canonized after three councils the last in Cartagena in 398 AD.
I would suggest that any serious student of theology learn to read Koine Greek and Hebrew. Do not rely on others to interpret original scriptures. There are hundreds of variant versions of Christian bibles none match each other or original sources. Endless wars, persecutions, inquisitions witch hunts have occurred throughout history from politically motivated individuals or groups imposing their own interpretations and resulting creeds to control the thoughts and behavior of people. Just ask Anabaptists ,Arian's or Jews. PS a joke "why did God create Mormons? So the Christians would understand how the Jews feel" (adding NT to Tanakh and changing scriptures). Watch Tenak Talk for more details. שלום
Christ was a creation of God with the awareness that all men are sons of God. He saved us by teaching us how to also become aware of this, for mankind lost its way by the worship of materialism. In this saving of mankind, Christ intention was not to become an object of worship, but for mankind to emulate him and his teachings with Peace and Love at the core. Nicea twisted these teachings and made Christianity an institution diametrically opposed to its original intentions that has lasted to modern times with a body count that runs in the millions . Even in these early times, those flagging as Christians could not sensibly discuss and resolve such issues as the trinity without the use of excessive violence against one another. So the simple message became corrupted back then and turned into a religion that only got worse for humanity as time went on . The Arians may have been closer to the truth as far as the being of Christ, however they also didn't get the message, as their followers acted just as barbaric as their Nicean counterparts.
The father old man with white beard and the son younger, looking like Jesus, is this not a childish depiction of God? And the words father and son and add to this Mary as the mother, is this not like transposing our very human experience on a transcendent plane? Is this not human to human?
I like "mortal incarnation" and "complete embodiment". I think these terms really capture the relationship of Christ to Allah. I think the problem most people have comes from the fact that Jesus Christ is both, simultaneously, a mortal created by God, and the Lord Himself, and that people seem to have trouble grasping this. I suppose it a complex issue? Anyway, what's your choice in terminology?
God does not have a son nor a wife nor any relations to us, Other than he created us to test all of us . and any one says different, then , he is fabricating stories nor him or his fathers know what they're talking about. nor can ever proof.. those who believe in God ALone and his prophets MOSES, JESUS and his last prophet Muhamed and follow the commandments shall enter paradise. end of story
Any way you look at it, neither camp had God or Jesus to examine, and were therefore incapable of discovering whether they are of the same substance or not. All is opinion unsupported by any evidence. Both are made up out of whole cloth. The only honest answer to the question is, "We don't know."
Theology is connected to history. History involves people and society. All of this wraps up into a very important package and when we even a simple grasp of both theology and historical writings we can begin to build a picture of today and how we got here and why.
As a muslim,you believe what your Koran tells you although it is at total variance with God's word,the Holy Bible.We Christians believe our Lord Jesus is the Way,the Truth,and the Life,and that no man comes to the Father but through Him!!!
So let em get the modern day Arian's straight: - Arius was correct, that Jesus is created by God and came after him - But the Catholic's, guided by Lucifer, suppressed the truth - So Lucifer's plan was to elevate Jesus to Godhood and have human's worship him equal to the Father for...reasons... Great plan. ''Hey, Lucifer, what's the plan?'' asks Legion'' ''I'll show the Son of the God,'' replies Lucifer. ''That Hippy with his 'turn the other cheek' and 'live like the lilly'! I'm going to make him pay!!!'' ''How you gunna do that?'' askes Legion. ''I've got the best plan ever! I'm going to convince the Humans, those dirt heaps, that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but IS God, equal to the Father! Mahahahahahahaha'. That'll ruin everything! They'll look at his teachings of love for thy neighbour as coming from God himself!'' ''Urm...if you say so Luci''....
Everything is clear Arius was a true follower of the teachings of Jesus (peace and blessing upon him) but now he is considered a bad guy because he didn't believe in the trinity. And since that day 325 AD you must believe in trinity and the mysterious crucifixion and from that day they abandoned the Aramaic bible that was sent by God to Jesus and now the oldest bible we have is the Greek one and from that day whoever says Jesus is human messenger.... he is no follower of Christ and that same year the huge church that is in Jerusalem is a ' holy place" after Jesus was gone by 300 years and now its a new religion called " Christianity'
The fact that Constantine insisted that 1john5:7-8 by put into scripture and burned alive all who objected should be clue to what this entire religion became. Luther later exceeded the evil of romans and mein Kampf quoted and followed Luther s writings.
Oneness is the faith of Abraham. Proof all water baptism in scripture were in the singular name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Acts2:38,8:16,10:48,19:5,22:16.
What's odd is how early church admits inventing and adding this pagan idolatry into NT ...Luther and Erasmus rejected insertion of 1john5:7-8...catholic bible removes it...yet KJV maintains such....Hard to give up Greco roman man-gods it seems...שלום
actual this is ISLAM and this why god send his last prophet Mohamed this is why christian Egyptian direct turn to islam when they heard about it and why Andulisia become muslims also and why muslims escaped to ethiopia when they was tortured Neoten was Auirsian and many famous thinkers also Auirs simply return chrstianity to its origin like all other previous religions sent by God (Unity of God) is the main and always the target of God and for that send all his prophets ending with Mohamed peace be upon him
Allah the God of all humans and other creatures says in the “quraan” that Jesuse is his messenger to the corrupted Jews after they changed their faith to gain money from poor. But he was fought by the king and was chased to be killed by the Jews. Then Allah raised him to the sky alive to be sent back before the final day to fight alongside the muslims against one of the most fearful future enemy of god as a Muslim. Because Islam is what Jesuse was sent to deliver( That God in one and he is a messenger not a son of God) Allah loves Jesuse and his mother and he loves all humans as long as they love him and worship Allah himself not a creation he made. Allah says in the quraan (Mohammed is a messenger and a human like all other messengers including Jesuse) All messengers of Allah were sent to remind humanity about the purpose of their existence on this earth in this universe, which is to follow the path of Allah and spread his words on this land and be good, honest,faithful,truthful even if means you will die. Because you will be judge by Allah himself for what you did and believed. And those who live their life making everyone else happy and help others and be good to family and neighbors and friends are the one will go to heaven. And those who spread fear and death and blood. Who want more money or more women or more power. Who dislikes the Idea of God and final day and want to stay forever killing others and cheating their family and neighbors will go to hell. Every human own himself nobody can make you choose what to believe. You choose what to believe. So be carful and look for the truth that will put in safety even if it means suffering in this life from poverty or jail or getting slowly killed. Because thats what other believers of God had to face in fighting against evil humans. May Allah lead all humans to his path and save those are lost today.
So if you were drowning and I can not save you because I am creature? Really? Israelites/ children of Abraham was drowning in sin and Immanuel saved them from death by the new covenant. Real simple.
Thank you Dr. Reeves! As a Biblical Studies major I absolutely love listening to your lectures!
Questions about Nicean consensus predate the 20th Century, and are found back in the 19th Century as well, while also underlying many of the debates amng different sects in Europe centuries prior to the 19th.
The same debate pre-dated Nicea with the early Christian church, with local doctrines being infused into local teachings among the different churches throughout the Mediterranean. The New Testament is mostly filled with Paul trying to keep the churches on track, once you get past the 4 Gospels. The New Testament documents this clearly.
St. Nicolas’s slap to Arius was no ordinary slap.... it was a slap inspired by the Holy Sprit 🙏☦️
He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
But he smacked Arius in the face in spite of himself.
That needs to be a Christmas movie.
Isn't it stated that there was 1 who voted against? Then exiled? Seems odd considering it was supposed to be an area of dispute for many, yet they get there and then all agree.
Dr. Reeves, very good lecture
Can I re-dub it into my native language?
Meland Neno // Sure, be my guest. :)
Hey Ryan, great video as always. I do have one serious question. You've mentioned here (and also in the video about creeds and councils) about the church's desire to focus on the "clear meaning of scripture". What evidence is there for this assertion? How do you square this with the numerous times that the fathers appeal to tradition in their writings (as per the Catholic view) and the fact that a new testament canon had not yet been formulated?
I find it hard to believe the position held by Arius was something new. There was no formal teaching of who Jesus was in the Trinitarian view, as it is defined today. Arius had no problem calling Jesus God/god, he was the only-begotten god Jn 1:18. The Word was brought into existence prior to time, both he and YHVH existed outside of time. The Word was the only thing God the Father, created, begat, produced or what ever word we wish to use, to discribe the method to bring His Son into existence. Origen, was an Arian, in his theology long before Arius was alive.
Arian Said that Jesus was a great prophet of God Like What Muslims say about him. But today You are being Used by the Same Evil Nicea Church. Islam Says that Adam, Nouh, Ibrahim, Mousa, Isaa (Jesus), Mohammad, And many other Great men were prophets of God and all were Muslims and Asked the people to warship one God. The Nicea Church made all the Known and unknown Crimes to Stop the real religion. And 10 Years before the the Prophet Mohammad was sent to humanity the Last Arian Kingdom was destroyed. Those Stupid Nicea(Orthodox,...) didn't know that the Greater threat on the Evil they made was to Come from the dry valley of Bakka (Macca). A descent of Ismail the Son of Ibrahim that will Light the world again was sent a prophet to all the world to continue the path of Adam, Nouh, Ibrahim, Mousa, And Isa (Jesus), His name is Mohammad and he changed the world. You As Christians in the west didn't Know the Arians because the Orthodox church wanted them destroyed so you cant see the truth. Here in the East in the Holly Land People knew the Truth and followed The Prophet Mohammad as he said what Ibrahim, Mousa, and Isaa (Jesus) Said about God. Note: Arians was before the establishment of Orthodox Church and took the religion from Masters not just from wrongly translated books and they are not Catholic.
And I know I have some Language mistakes and this is what happens when some one talk other language. People who made the first versions of the bible that was widely used that time wasn't Syrianic or Like you Say Assyrian they translated what they where told and Since the Sami Language Like Assyrian, Arab, Old Hebrew use different terms and rules than Greeks. None of the Bibles where 100% correct. And Since the Greeks had old believes of human Gods and sons for those gods they changed Isaa (Jesus) religion. so people who studied in the Syrian Land and near places Like Aris (The head of Arians) (He Studied at Antalia) stood hardly and died trying to stop this change. Because they new the true religion. While Orthodox where Like ISIS even some times worst. They Tortured,Poisoned, Beheaded, and even Burned every one that says that there is one God and that Jesus was a great Human not a God or Son of God.
wow you just spout so much nonsense without any basis or without offering any evidence
Did you actually listen to the whole video?
@Ryan Reeves These lectures are excellent. Have you considered doing a historical overview series about the Old and New Testament? I would love to see those. History is so helpful in putting our faith in perspective.
Here is what Arius and his followers taught about Jesus.
"he is from things that are not", and
"before he was begotten he was not", and
"there once was when he was not",
saying too that
by his own power the Son of God is capable of
evil and
goodness,
and calling him
a creature and a work.
Excellent! Keep up the good work!
He saved us by the grace of God "forgive them for they know not what they do."
he pissed off Santa Claus. it's right there in the minutes...Nick slapped him
Thank for your rich informations ,as always
Thank you so much for your lecturers, I love them. Regarding St Nicholas slapping an Arian - you say " certainly is true St Nicholas did do this..." What sources did you get this information from as some are not so sure that this happen.
Very amusing, thanks.
is Arianism similar to Islam?
Do we have enough documents available to know what sabellianism really is that the tertulian apologetics?
Why can't we just go by what the bible states, Jesus is God's Word made flesh. Is this so hard?
No. It's just highly figurative, using metaphors and similes and some idioms and the like, both as the standard way of expressing basic statements in the languages they were written (much as we often do in English today), and to explain these complex, unworldly concepts to mere mortals. That wouldn't be all too difficult in and of itself, except people have a habit of assuming all language in the Bible is strictly literal, and getting very worked-up over the minute ins-and-outs of terminology. Note that people didn't typically have these sorts of problems with Paganism.
Who says I have come down from heaven? Does Jesus or the Spirit of God come down from heaven? Who is the speaker?
Before I finish this clip I only have One Question. Please EXPLAIN Matthew 2 & Luke 2?????
One striking error I find in the interpretation of John 1:1 is in Yeshua's being referred to as the Word..Logos. However it says that Word was with God and the Word was God...the Word emanated from God, the Word is not the same as the One that spoke it into existence. The same goes for when Yeshua claims to be the "Way", the "Way" is not the same as the destination...That said, once more, if Yeshua is the Word, then surely he did not exist until God spoke the Word into existence...In other words, ex nihilo just as Arius believed...
Logos is far better then the English word. logos is divine reason and creative order. This mirrors the the universal divine reason and the creative order shown in the space and time and order of material in the universe. Greek is far better then KJB mistranslated Greek.
Thomas McEwen The point I am trying to make is that Logos is not God, but an expression of God's love for mankind. This to me indicates that Yeshua is not God, but an expression of God's love. Yeshua therefore is not God. So saying that the word was God or is God is a contradiction. Word's have a beginning and an end, they are finite, not infinite. Arius was making this very point.
Stephen Webb No logos is the Why and the what. It describes why God created the universe and how, it was done for God's purpose and design. I have a real problem with the term Yeshua. Greece conquered Israel around 360 BC and Hebrew had been lost in the exile. Greek was the language of Israel, the conquered speak the language of the conquerors, it how life works. The Septuagint was in Greek the signs that were in the Temple was in Greek the burial urn of the chief priest are in greek the letters of Paul are in Greek the three gospels of Mark Luke John was in Greek Matthew may have been written in Aramaic then Greek, since greek was the educated language of Rome, Pilate spoke Greek Jesus lived an hour's walk from a rich Greek city and he read a greek Jewish quote from the Septuagint out loud. No one ever called Iesous Yeshua, the rabbi in 97 AD reinvent Hebrew after the roman defeat and the Christian influence in the synagogue. Other then that I enjoyed talking to you, we still have Arianism today in Islam not good at all.
Islam is more like the Ebionite's following. In fact many of the Ebionites settled in with nomads in the middle east. I'm not saying that the Arian way hadn't some impact, but long before Arius the Ebionites were in the Arabian peninsula.
+Thomas McEwen You can take as much issue as you want with my use of Yeshua, that won't change because you should know that when people say Yeshua they mean "Jesus" or "Iesous" - taking issue with this is not a matter of correctness, but your own personal preference. While it may be true that the conquered often adopt language from the conquerors for the most part, there are always elements that refuse this intrusion such as rebel factions - I don't think you'll find any essene, or sicarii referring to Yeshua as Iesous, so kindly get over it, you know what I mean.
Arius was right about the Father and the Son not being the same person, and about the Father creating the Son.
At the conception of Jesus, the presence of Elizabeth should not be ignored, nor the subsequent birth of John the Baptist, and further light should be shed on the "he who will be first shall be last" theme... Also, quite obviously Mary had to have tutored Jesus in what her beliefs were about his conception, yet the issue is never addressed. Zoroaster is never mentioned, nor Isis........Belief just materializes in Jesus' head?? Did mommy tutor jesus? and later on in his life John baptized him....which in a way indicates superiority of John. All the B.S. about Roman religion has nothing at all to do with Jesus.
so Arius was a Muslim somehow!?
+Tarragon Mugwort Correct..
Arius seems more like Jehovah's Witnesses today.
Tarragon Mugwort
Well, Arius didn't just say Jesus was just a guy, like the Unitarian Universalists do. Jesus was the supreme being over all and before all creation, according to Arius, but still a creature made by God before God made anything else. That's my understanding of what JWs believe, too.
Jesus had said "Those who LOVES Me Follow my teachings" John 14:24
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ....." It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to THEIR DOGS(gentiles } Matthew 15:22-28 ..
Bible says these come words from mouth of Jesus himself!
To my knowledge, the Biblical silence on the gentile’s salvation parallels its silence concerning the issue of the ‘trinity’, and your alleged divinity of Jesus . I have not come across a single Biblical passage where Jesus is explicitly reported to have claimed to be God; but he had instead repeatedly announced the complete antithesis of this (c.f. Matthew 24:36, 26:39, 23:10-11 Mark 12:28-34, John 17:3, 20:16 (“ …. I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”) etc.).
Paul_Is_The AntiChrist Jonah the prophet was a sign to the nation Israel that through them the gentiles would be included into salvation.
Thanks.
Can I ask you Ryan, what is Arius' stance on where the Holy Spirit belongs in terms of his creator-creature distinction? Is the Holy Spirit in oneness with God or?
As Arians have the same thinking like us Muslims. Jesus is a Prophet (That what muslims Say) like Nouh, Ibrahim, Mousa, ... The Holy Spirit is Gabriel The best Angle God created. Gabriel is who tells the prophets the Verses. Aris was a normal man raised in a family that followed Isaa (Jesus), He learned in Antalia near Syria after coming from Libya where so many People knew the True religion of Jesus. while the Nicea Campaigh head was a man originated from Persian religion family that didnt worship God. But he was helped by the people that wanted to destroy the religion of Isaa (Jesus). He mixed between the old religion of Greace were Men are called Gods and there sons are Gods or sons of Gods, Some parts of Persian religion of worshiping sun, and some of Islam that Jesus introduced. And he made the new religion falsely called orthodox while in reality it was a new religion. Aris fought hardly to stop the false religion and people in the east and especially Holly Land in Palestine supported Him , but Constantine made many of them sigh against Aris because he didn't worship God . Any Way Aris didn't gave up and he asked his friend who learned with him in Antalia help Aris Friend communicated with Constantine mom who believed in that time in one God and he was allowed to sit with Constantine for long time to tell him about Jesus religion. And after years things changed and Constantine became Arian and Started changing the heads of states and on of them was the Evil Iskandarian that had many crimes. Lastly Aris was invited to Constantine City and the Nicea men felt he will become in charge in the city and wanted him to dye in Public. They poisoned him. An while being welcomed as a hero he started spiting blood his stomach exploded and he died. Later the Nicea People will Start a black age searching for and killing every one in the Emipre that say tere is only one God and Isaa ( Jesus) is a great man sent to teach us the truth. Hundreds of years will pass where People will be Tortured, Poisoned, Beheaded, And even burned by the Orthodox Church. But resistance will Continue by the Arians. Kingdoms will form and resist in all directions of the Roman Empire. The Last Kingdom will be destroyed about 10 Years before Prophet Mohammad was sent to Humanity. The Great Man will be born of the Holly Valley of Bakka (Macca). The Cesar of Rome will be Stunned by the Prophet Mohammad Message to him reminding him of what he thought no body would remember or know. The Cesar Afraid from The Orthodox causing unrest in the empire will refuse Islam. The Roman Army will be destroyed by a so much smaller Army Coming from Arabia The Holly Places in Palestine will soon be in the hands of Muslims. People in Syria,Egypt, ... will become Muslims and fight Against Persian and Roman Empire. Persian Empire will b invaded by Muslims and People will see the truth and become Muslims. Roman Empire will be reduced day by day until what Prophet Mohammad Asked Happen A Great Muslim Man Will Take Constantine City And Year After Year The People will become Muslim and the City become a City with A Majority of People who believes in one God.
ahmad shoumen ....Ridiculous!!
Greek and by relation Roman mythologies held a trinity Zues, Hades and Poseidon I have always felt this was the root of the "Holy" trinity.
I knew Superman punched out a U-boat once but I had no idea Santa hated Nazis too. Who delivered the presents in the Third Reich then? It must have been Blitzen that damn sympathizer, they should all have been interned...
Why in the second photo is just about everyone is black? Would you say that is accurate?
Black or at least non-white/non-European. So in this sense, yes that would be entirely accurate. The center of Christianity was Africa, Asia Minor and out East for most of its early history. We have forgotten this a lot today, mostly because the majority of these lands are no longer Christian. But Europe was not the origin of Christianity, of course, so paintings where they look 'white' are often not racist (at least not intentionally) but rather they just painted things to look like the only people they had ever seen.
Europeans created Christianity and it started with Alexander the GREEK and that first white Pharaoh Ptolemy.
Um ....because they were Black ????
Let's keep it real simple face the truth set your soul free!
Robert Bonneau
No, he was not a Homosexual. That was a vicious rumor. I think he had about 10 kids. Many didn't like him and why Guy Fawkes tried to murder him. Do you know who Guy Fawkes is?
Robert Bonneau
Prove it. Put your money where your mouth is.
Happy Hunting.
To say that if we say Jesus was created then that means he could not die for sins is where the Bishops errored at Nicea because Jesus was the first born of all Creation. In Collosions 1:14-15 14in whom we haveredemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.…" Therefore yes, Jesus can be created as The Son of God and still save us.
If you deny either the Father or the Son, that's the Biblical definition of an Antichrist.
Saying they are one and the same means one or the other has been denied, making Jesus a Hindu avatar god.
The problem is with literalist interpretations of holy texts -the doctrine of the trinity is a metaphor for the evolution of thought about God -from the severe, legalistic God of the O.T.(and Islam for that matter) to the forgiving non-legalistic God of the NT incarnated in Jesus to the ongoing inspiration of God(The Holy Spirit) All religious discourse about the divine is couched in human terms and uses words like father,son, beget etc -not to be understood literally! If God is omnipotent he can do anything including incarnate himself.God is at the same time a simple and complex being .So he can be both an unity an a trinity -bit like quantum physics where something can be something and its opposite at the same time.
Believing that Jesus is God is a result of receiving salvation from God. It’s not something to be argued. I feel if a person argues the deity of God but denying it, then he is more than likely not even a follower of Christ. The divinity of Christ was answered long before Arius and Nicea.
Arius called to the oneness of God without the influences of pagan theologies.. Trinity is shared between mainstream Christians now and Hindus, Greeks, Egyptians as well as Babylonians, trinity actually predates Jesus and is flawed from many perspectives.. Father and Son relationship between God and Jesus is a mistake in translation from the original language of Jesus. I call the readers to probe the teachings of Arius from an unbiased view and give it the benefit of doubt.
Agreed Mubarak..
Yes as this does not indicate that Arias never referred to Jesus as Jesus but rather Heru. The letter J came to use somewhere between the 1500-1600"s.
And I know I have some Language mistakes and this is what happens when some one talk other language. People who made the first versions of the bible that was widely used that time wasn't Syrianic or Like you Say Assyrian they translated what they where told and Since the Sami Language Like Assyrian, Arab, Old Hebrew use different terms and rules than Greeks. None of the Bibles where 100% correct. And Since the Greeks had old believes of human Gods and sons for those gods they changed Isaa (Jesus) religion. so people who studied in the Syrian Land and near places Like Aris (The head of Arians) (He Studied at Antalia) stood hardly and died trying to stop this change. Because they new the true religion. While Orthodox where Like ISIS even some times worst. They Tortured,Poisoned, Beheaded, and even Burned every one that says that there is one God and that Jesus was a great Human not a God or Son of God.
ahmad shoumen I am Assyrian. We received the Gospel from Thomas. John 20:28 Thomas called Christ his Lord and God. Please do not misrepresent my people and please do not comment on the Bible if you've never read the whole thing which I am sure you haven't.
0mnm you are wrong. No trinity existed the way the true biblical triune nature is represented. The triune nature is shown through the entire Old Testament and you can ask me and I'll give plenty of passages proving that
It's sad how many heretics are commenting below (i.e. those that deny the Trinity).
On another note, it's also sad how many people have absolutely no ability to communicate their ideas via a keyboard. I'm reading some of these comments and I'm like "What in the world did you just say?"
Pavle Bujanovic heretics to what?
His Royal Majesty Oliver Cromwell objective truth as revealed by God in His Holy Word
that doesn't exaactly answer the question, does it? after reading the book in the original greek, I could still come to a different conclusion to you. If I don't know your point of reference, how would I know what is heresy? I believe the objective truth cannot be found through rationalism, so I don't think I could know what you know if I read the bible, since I believe that I would come to a different conclusion.
Whether or not you come to a different conclusion than me is really irrelevant. My opinion and your opinion have nothing to do with objective truth. The only thing that is relevant to objective truth is objective truth itself. Some might say that I'm just talking in circles and that's fine --- I've heard this before.
Anyway, the Bible make it clear that you must believe that Jesus is God or that you will not be saved (e.g. John 8:24 and Exodus 3:14). Therefore, if anyone denies the Trinity, they are NOT saved. If they are not saved, then the Holy Spirit has not come upon them. If the Holy Spirit has not come upon them, then try as they might, they will not be able to come truth about the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:14).
This is why two people can read the exact same text and honestly ("honestly" from a human standpoint; from God's standpoint, without the Holy Spirit, we can do no honest thing - See Romans 3:10-18) inquire about its meaning and arrive at two completely different conclusions.
As a side note, forgive me for not knowing this, but I'm pretty sure that Oliver Cromwell was a Trinitarian, was he not?
Pavle Bujanovic he was a puritan protestant, and I'm pretty sure he was a trinitarian.
What do you think about the book of Thomas then, where he says that Jesus was incorporeal, and that was the reason his finger went through Jesus' hand? This was the form of christianity that was believed by indians along the west coast of india from about 5-10 years AD.
Oh, who is equal to the task of dividing accounts from the past and sifting truth much less clarity from those vague sources. I mean, what does this do for the average person wondering how to escape the terror and finality of certain mortality. A weariness to the flesh, to the spirit, to the ever elusive soul.
Arius was in theTruth
Tarragon Mugwort "by their fruits , you will know them."
Simon Brown. There were not a bunch of monks at Nicea. The Roman Catholic Church was not yet even established. The nearly 300 Bishops who attended the council were the pastors of different churches from Antioch to Palestine and Jerusalem to Alexandria. I take from the tone of your comment that you are a Modalist. Thus the level of your negativity.
The sun rises between the horns of the devil evidence
Conclusion of this analysis is polytheism - there is more than one God which in itself is a contradiction in terms.
Pluralism notion of God is against the entire Hebrew bible which JC and apostles to follow. He even says in Mathew 10:5-6 and Mathew 5:17 his movement is only for the Jews and to follow all the laws from Pharisees..
The entire NT full of contradictions errors and does not even match the original koine Greek pre Nicene scriptures. So many additions and changes made admittedly by roman and Europeans including 1john5:7-8,John7:53,John8:23,Mark16:9-20...et al. These church fathers also changed the Hebrew Bible to fit their NT.
Martin Luther,Erasmus and even Sir Issac Newton knew and stated this. Trintity man-godism is idolatry and was never part of original church in Jerusalem of James and Peter.
You are following "Paulianity" with Nicaen creeds.
motorhead Right on!! And even the Old testament books give instruction to refer to specific books that aren't even in the bible!! The bible is a severely manhandled book of books. 2motorhead songs,I Don't Believe a word. and Liar!
The six pillars of iman "faith" in Islam
Belief in Allah;
Belief in the angels;
Belief in the revealed books;
Belief in the commissioned Messengers (peace be upon them).
Belief in the resurrection and the events of Qiyamah.
Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad.
The Almighty God created the holy spirit and casted it, true Gabriel into the womb of Maria, out of which came Jesus. Born of a mother without a father, like Adam was born without a either a father nor a mother.
Jesus can't be God, he is from God, he prayed to God his Father. When asked about the Hour, he did not know the answer. That is proof he wasn't all knowing as God is. What's so hard to understand. God is ONE, he begot a son, and used the holy spirit to inspire humans towards truth. Triity is pure paganism.
I bet $1,000 .00 no one can present a Byzantine Bible ...
The Byzantine didn't use the Bible we have today...
Go Arius!! Down with the trinity.
300 men shouting out loudly 1,700 years ago end up deciding the teachings of a church that encompasses over 2 billion people.
The biggest mistake the early fathers made was that they did not talk about the trinity in the Bible. But rather came up with their own which is still confusing to many. The Bible trinity is the best and simple that no body disagree with it. Jesus is the word of God and the word of GOD has no begining and no End. The Word is the creator because God is the creator. It is all in the gospel of John. The word of God that has no beginning or no end came into the world as the Son of God in the flesh therefore God in the flesh. The early church fathers gave out allot of confusion with their own version of trinity rather than the bible version of the trinity. Even the Muslims says the word of God has no beggining and no ending except they do not believe that the word came into the world as the son of God. Another word they believe in the word as eternal and divine but do not believe it came the world as a human being. Thus the Bible trinity is the best and most simple one.
The bible was not canonizated in 325 AD it was not the bible until 397 AD at Cartagena. Post de posta much.
Oliver C What error, there is the Septuagint read by Jesus in the synagogue and quoted by the apostles 300 times and the 27 books, the four gospels whose author's name was assigned by the apostolic fathers. Well, Thomas Jefferson took his bible apart so can you, Luther did.
Oliver C The greek Jewish bible I am talking about the bible translated by 70 rabbi in Alexandria in about 220 BC since the Jews had lost their Hebrew. The books of the bible were selected by the writings of the apostolic fathers and tradition. Because it was so important three councils were assembled the Greek bible of the Septuagint and the 27 books also in Greek was canonized in 397 AD at Cartagena. There was never a canonized Hebrew OT the system was oral not written, those who sat in Moses seat gave interpretation, an the ancients had good memories Homer's Odyssey, Iliad was quoted and only written down 300 years later. The council of Jamina canonized the OT in Hebrew in 97 AD because the destruction of the temple system and the oral teachers. Plus they blamed the greek language for their defeat and the inroads into the synagogue by Christians, two more revolts later the Romans detested the Jews as traitors at the last revolt the rabbi selected a Messiah who was not Jesus and the Christians rejected him and the Christians were forced out of the synagogue starting in 132 AD. You seem to have a modern 19th century wiew of history.
Oliver C The Jews lost their Hebrew in the exile, the Greeks about 360 BC conquered the land and the conquered speak the language of the conquerors if you want to live. Maccabees wrote about the revolt Against Greece and it was written in Greek. Greek was the language of the Mediterranean, Konie Greek was the trading language. Ptolemy II about 220 BC ordered the writing of the Septuagint by 70 scholars because the Jews had lost their Hebrew or Aramaic. This was Septuagint was read orally in the synagogue by Christ, quoted by Paul and the apostles. It was read in the Temple, the signs we have found in the ruins are in Greek the burial urn for the chief priest is in Greek. The Jews invited in the Romans to push out the Greeks Greek was the language of Rome's elites. There was zero Hebrew with the defeat in 70 AD the Temple system was destroyed alone with the oral teaching. The rabbi at the Janina in 97 AD blamed greek for their defeat and the Septuagint was being used to Christianized Jews. The Jews isolated themselves and after two more revolts were seen as traitors by Rome. Your understanding of history is American not European Karla university Prague founded in 1348 AD my church was founded in 1285 AD in malostranske. Paul wrote good Greek the gospels of Mark Luke John are in greek, Matthew may have been in Aramaic then Greek the bible in Greek the Septuagint and the 27 greek books were canonized after three councils the last in Cartagena in 398 AD.
Oliver C He was speaking in Greek you must be some sort of evangelicals.
I would suggest that any serious student of theology learn to read Koine Greek and Hebrew.
Do not rely on others to interpret original scriptures.
There are hundreds of variant versions of Christian bibles none match each other or original sources.
Endless wars, persecutions, inquisitions witch hunts have occurred throughout history from politically motivated individuals or groups imposing their own interpretations and resulting creeds to control the thoughts and behavior of people. Just ask Anabaptists ,Arian's or Jews.
PS a joke "why did God create Mormons? So the Christians would understand how the Jews feel" (adding NT to Tanakh and changing scriptures).
Watch Tenak Talk for more details.
שלום
Christ was a creation of God with the awareness that all men are sons of God. He saved us by teaching us how to also become aware of this, for mankind lost its way by the worship of materialism. In this saving of mankind, Christ intention was not to become an object of worship, but for mankind to emulate him and his teachings with Peace and Love at the core. Nicea twisted these teachings and made Christianity an institution diametrically opposed to its original intentions that has lasted to modern times with a body count that runs in the millions . Even in these early times, those flagging as Christians could not sensibly discuss and resolve such issues as the trinity without the use of excessive violence against one another. So the simple message became corrupted back then and turned into a religion that only got worse for humanity as time went on . The Arians may have been closer to the truth as far as the being of Christ, however they also didn't get the message, as their followers acted just as barbaric as their Nicean counterparts.
The father old man with white beard and the son younger, looking like Jesus, is this not a childish depiction of God? And the words father and son and add to this Mary as the mother, is this not like transposing our very human experience on a transcendent plane? Is this not human to human?
arius is correct, jesus is like us and no one is like god
How is this for an 21st century update of the issue. We are the children of God while Christ is the clone of God.
Tarragon Mugwort or just call him an avatar of god
I like "mortal incarnation" and "complete embodiment". I think these terms really capture the relationship of Christ to Allah.
I think the problem most people have comes from the fact that Jesus Christ is both, simultaneously, a mortal created by God, and the Lord Himself, and that people seem to have trouble grasping this. I suppose it a complex issue?
Anyway, what's your choice in terminology?
I suppose that does make sense. I don't really understand such technical terminology in programming well, but it sounds apt enough. Good work.
God does not have a son nor a wife nor any relations to us, Other than he created us to test all of us . and any one says different, then , he is fabricating stories nor him or his fathers know what they're talking about. nor can ever proof.. those who believe in God ALone and his prophets MOSES, JESUS and his last prophet Muhamed and follow the commandments shall enter paradise. end of story
Any way you look at it, neither camp had God or Jesus to examine, and were therefore incapable of discovering whether they are of the same substance or not. All is opinion unsupported by any evidence. Both are made up out of whole cloth. The only honest answer to the question is, "We don't know."
Arius was right, trinity is blasphemi.
It looks like theology is just a way for people to distract themselves from issues that are important.
Theology is connected to history. History involves people and society. All of this wraps up into a very important package and when we even a simple grasp of both theology and historical writings we can begin to build a picture of today and how we got here and why.
Arius writings was found by Muhammad pbuh, and then claim the writings as the quran given by Allah pbuh
found???when??
Not at all keep researching this is written on a wall in Egypt. All religion were written from this wall and then an attempt was madetodestroy it.
we muslims believe jesus is prophet from god not god or son of god
As a muslim,you believe what your Koran tells you although it is at total variance with God's word,the Holy Bible.We Christians believe our Lord Jesus is the Way,the Truth,and the Life,and that no man comes to the Father but through Him!!!
so let us read the 2 books to know which one saying the truth
both books are bullshit, but the koran is the most stupid and dangerous one
So let em get the modern day Arian's straight:
- Arius was correct, that Jesus is created by God and came after him
- But the Catholic's, guided by Lucifer, suppressed the truth
- So Lucifer's plan was to elevate Jesus to Godhood and have human's worship him equal to the Father for...reasons...
Great plan. ''Hey, Lucifer, what's the plan?'' asks Legion''
''I'll show the Son of the God,'' replies Lucifer. ''That Hippy with his 'turn the other cheek' and 'live like the lilly'! I'm going to make him pay!!!''
''How you gunna do that?'' askes Legion.
''I've got the best plan ever! I'm going to convince the Humans, those dirt heaps, that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but IS God, equal to the Father! Mahahahahahahaha'. That'll ruin everything! They'll look at his teachings of love for thy neighbour as coming from God himself!''
''Urm...if you say so Luci''....
Everything is clear Arius was a true follower of the teachings of Jesus (peace and blessing upon him) but now he is considered a bad guy because he didn't believe in the trinity. And since that day 325 AD you must believe in trinity and the mysterious crucifixion and from that day they abandoned the Aramaic bible that was sent by God to Jesus and now the oldest bible we have is the Greek one and from that day whoever says Jesus is human messenger.... he is no follower of Christ and that same year the huge church that is in Jerusalem is a ' holy place" after Jesus was gone by 300 years and now its a new religion called " Christianity'
it is pretty same islamic philosophy describing the all mighty God .... and JESUS is servant and messenger for jews at that time .
The fact that Constantine insisted that 1john5:7-8 by put into scripture and burned alive all who objected should be clue to what this entire religion became. Luther later exceeded the evil of romans and mein Kampf quoted and followed Luther s writings.
Constantine did neither of those things.
Oneness is the faith of Abraham.
Proof all water baptism in scripture were in the singular name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Acts2:38,8:16,10:48,19:5,22:16.
What's odd is how early church admits inventing and adding this pagan idolatry into NT ...Luther and Erasmus rejected insertion of 1john5:7-8...catholic bible removes it...yet KJV maintains such....Hard to give up Greco roman man-gods it seems...שלום
actual this is ISLAM and this why god send his last prophet Mohamed
this is why christian Egyptian direct turn to islam when they heard about it and why Andulisia become muslims also and why muslims escaped to ethiopia when they was tortured
Neoten was Auirsian and many famous thinkers also
Auirs simply return chrstianity to its origin like all other previous religions sent by God (Unity of God) is the main and always the target of God and for that send all his prophets ending with Mohamed peace be upon him
Allah the God of all humans and other creatures says in the “quraan” that Jesuse is his messenger to the corrupted Jews after they changed their faith to gain money from poor. But he was fought by the king and was chased to be killed by the Jews. Then Allah raised him to the sky alive to be sent back before the final day to fight alongside the muslims against one of the most fearful future enemy of god as a Muslim.
Because Islam is what Jesuse was sent to deliver( That God in one and he is a messenger not a son of God)
Allah loves Jesuse and his mother and he loves all humans as long as they love him and worship Allah himself not a creation he made.
Allah says in the quraan (Mohammed is a messenger and a human like all other messengers including Jesuse)
All messengers of Allah were sent to remind humanity about the purpose of their existence on this earth in this universe, which is to follow the path of Allah and spread his words on this land and be good, honest,faithful,truthful even if means you will die. Because you will be judge by Allah himself for what you did and believed.
And those who live their life making everyone else happy and help others and be good to family and neighbors and friends are the one will go to heaven.
And those who spread fear and death and blood. Who want more money or more women or more power. Who dislikes the Idea of God and final day and want to stay forever killing others and cheating their family and neighbors will go to hell.
Every human own himself nobody can make you choose what to believe. You choose what to believe. So be carful and look for the truth that will put in safety even if it means suffering in this life from poverty or jail or getting slowly killed. Because thats what other believers of God had to face in fighting against evil humans.
May Allah lead all humans to his path and save those are lost today.
So if you were drowning and I can not save you because I am creature? Really? Israelites/ children of Abraham was drowning in sin and Immanuel saved them from death by the new covenant. Real simple.