Two Professional Writers React to Lily Orchard's "Simple Writing Tips"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ย. 2020
- Gus Zagarella and Henry Galley are audio drama writers and members of the online indie production group: Praeps. If you'd like to listen to Less Is Morgue click the following link: lessismorgue.com/
Lily Orchard's twitter writing tips are anything but helpful, mostly because media exists outside of Steven Universe and She-Ra and The Princesses of Power. If you are a writer who wants to write the next Avatar: The Last Airbender or do a wholesome inverted version of Goblin Slayer or who wants to tastefully explore boobplate, don't take this advice. - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Surprised I even need to clarify this, but any comment that misgenders Lily Orchard will be removed immediately. Like, use your heads, people.
I like this comment
@@dallasisgood ??
@@dallasisgood my guy were you saying pathetic because they didn't want to misgender/dead name lily or because ppl really do that
@@dallasisgood my guy what
@@dallasisgood my guy when used in the context of talking to a unknown person is not used to say that said person is a male it is used to say that the said person is a adversary in the conversation
It's so weird how Lily wants her fiction to be bland, inoffensive, gentle, soothing, and conflict-free. And yet her entire online personality is 'I threw it on the ground'
"WHATCHU THINK I M STUPID?!?!?!!"
“WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO WITH THIS, EAT IT? HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE GROOOOUUUUNNDD”
You think it is some sort of projection? Like, her older projects are so vile and contain unspeakable context, but she thinks performatively advocating against that sort of content now makes up for it? I can even sympathize with making content you don't agree with now and find shameful, but I don't think she ever expressed feelings of shame with Stockholm or that one genocide game she made.... And even if she did, that sort of stuff is not some "old shame" or a "whoopsies". It's very disturbing.
@@henrynelson9301 "I THREW THE REST OF THE CAKE TOO!!!"
@@hithere5039 she still refuses to confess she wrote Stockholm to this day
That "Don't pair adults with minors" rule is so funny coming from her
The problem I find with this rule , despite the obvious hypocrisy, is 'have you ever met a teenage? " While, yes , teenagers shouldn't be objectified or only used to be sexual.
It's completely okay for them to have urges, it's just biology! Stop acting like they are saints and can never have a dirty or dark thought! It's okay to let them think something and if you want to say that it was wrong of them to think that, let them be embarrassed by it. Let them cringe at it! It's natural! Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
@@kimchi._.2234 YES i had sex as a teenager it fucking happens. Its okay to depict things as long as theres a reason for it narratively, right? also... i was thinking a lot about lily orchard and seeing more stuff she has done and its starting to become like super clear that her list is so out of touch not just because she is a person who only watches kids cartoons, but also because she is marketing to people who only watch kids cartoons. She has always had sussy interactions with minors and this childish thread is probably childish for a reason. SCARY
@@weezerfan1232I will say, there is a line between “teens have sex” and actually sexualizing teens
An example of the former is sex education and an example of the latter is Riverdale
@@zinkheroofyoutube8004 i feel like i implied that distinction in my comment, but youre right sure
@@weezerfan1232 Why would you advocate for teen xxx in both fiction and reality? Let's just not step into the underage xxx slippery slope no matter the narrative reasons.
“characters don’t have sexual agency, you made them that way” CHARACTERS DON'T EXIST, YOU MADE THEM
☠️ ☠️ ☠️ ☠️ ☠️
Characters don't, you made them
Characters, you made them
Characters
,
“Don’t make a comedy into a drama”
>Bojack Horseman
>Gintama
>Moral Orel
>Barry
>Everything Everywhere All At Once
I didn’t even think of Moral Orel for this point. But damn was it a good show. And the success of Bojack and Everything Everywhere All At Once by themselves are enough to show how dumb of a point it is.
Dragon Ball, for sure
Blackadder Goes Forth.
Even putting aside series, there's one of my personal recent favorite pieces of media, The Guy Who Didn't Like Musicals.
Granted, it's more of a horror than a drama, but it's still a pretty good example. Starts out very light hearted and comedic, then quickly turns into a horror-comedy.
Succession
lily orchard wrote a guide on how to write fanservice for lily orchard
Didn't she also say you can't draw her OC in a particular way? I'm sure she doesn't like people to take personal liberties with her character if it's not in line with her ideals
@@dracopug yeah but like her oc is her oc you gotta respect that
@@ashoka9306 to be fair the way she handled it was not very good. she didnt commission the artist, the artist drew her oc simply because she liked lily orchard, and lily orchard blew up at her. If you'd like more information, this video was done by the artist in question about what happened: th-cam.com/video/tNFz7FBZhZw/w-d-xo.html
@@mistergray9615 i really don't care for drama
@@ashoka9306 Thats fair, I just thought it should be clarified as more than disrespecting her OC for anybody who reads this
"artists draw, writers write"
People who write and illustrate graphic novels: *i have no such weaknesses*
Lol
You think your mortal words could hurt me, you wretched creature?
If writers write, and artists draw, then I am ascended!
as a person who pursues both art and writing (albeit as hobbies) this comment is hilarious
look upon your superior, and weep.
But...
Writers have writer's block
Artists have Art block
Graphic novels have both
There are three types of adults who enjoy children's animated shows
- People who are chill and like what they like
- Insecure people who claim they're actually super dark and mature
- Whatever the hell this was
ok, but defense of number 2: the last season of adventure time fucked me up.
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong I'd say there's an important difference between someone like you simply stating it, and someone else who you can tell is trying to justify their interest in cartoons, and is really really emotional about it.
Personally, I never got over Infinity Train's third season. So I can relate.
I might be number 2 bc I never shut up about cartoons, but who knows
@@randompromises1038 could just be enthusiasm for a thing you love rather than insecurity
@@chandra_creatoryeah fair lol I just worry I'm obnoxious with it
Im years late to this but why do I get the feeling that Lily only understands the term "enemy" or "antagonist" to also mean "abuser". You can have characters be enemies and antagonistic to each other without it necessarily being considered abusive.
What I mean is that two people can be enemies and fight because of ideological differences and not because they actively hate each other.
@@CorvusTheNerdOr they can be fighting because they hate each other and still not be abuse
@@zinkheroofyoutube8004 Exactly.
RIGHT, how about rivals who are on equal footing? or two characters learning to get along despite their differences? guess that counts as abuse
Because the only way you can avoid being abusive is if you never act in a negative way towards the person. Negativity essentially equals abuse under this crude moral framework. Even if it is a harsh criticism meant to help you avoid a mistake, if I give it to you in a sufficiently harsh manner or even just a bit on the excessively harsh side, I have abused you. It doesn't matter what the context is. I could be shouting at you to stop pointing a gun at people for fear of you accidently killing someone but if I call you an idiot in the process unnecessarily, I have abused you.
These don't feel like writing tips. They feel like
"you can't write this story that way because I don't like it"
That's pretty much Lily in a fucking nutshell.
And also here are some of my trash politics.
Y U P
One of the biggest gripes I have with Lily is their absolute hatred for stories that focus more on worldbuilding rather than character development. Not because what they say isn't true, but because they seem to have a hate boner for worldbuilding in any kind of media. Worldbuilding is a valid writing tool too, you numpty...
@@anintellectualclone1475 Lily being so anti world building makes her ignore the fact that world building and character development can go hand in hand. World building can explain why characters act a certain way because of the culture or environment in the world around them.
"Zuko's story isn't about redemption, it's about recovery!"
Can't it be both?
No. Redemption assumes that everything g done before is just ignored and brushed under the rug.
@@StormgemThunder its a joke stormgem, jesus
I think denying the Zuko had a redemption arc is an insult to his character and the growth he had over the series.
@@MiloKuroshiro That's just such a toxic way of thinking in general like
People can get better? It's not just brushing it under the rug it's acknowledging what they've done, why it's bad, and proceed to male better decisions and show growth.
That mentality is so toxic because it assumes that people getting better is just ignoring everything they've done. People can move on while still making note the shit they've done was terrible.
Zuko - A story about Recovemption.
the way she ends so many of these with "youre a huge turd" makes her seem like shes on the same level of a kid who still thinks "poopyhead" is the worst insult on earth
It’s also a clear manifestation of an issue I’ve noticed across literally all social media. People on these sites can never just disagree with something. Any disagreement has to immediately escalate to moralization, and to branding people heroes and villains.
If you disagree with me about literature, it can’t just be that you have a different perspective. You have to be a morally compromised person.
@@sealogic4552 yeah i've noticed that too, and its become so widespread that its seems like a lot of people assume that the only reason to dislike something is it being morally bad. like, for example, if someone says they dont like a band, then people will comment "omg what did they do? 😨" as if the band members doing something wrong is the only reason anyone could dislike the band
I don’t remember how the saying goes but if someone use insults in a argument then the person lost.
You don't know what a joke is do you
That should be a drinking game.
As an autistic person, I feel so patronizing at her attempt at bossing around autistic rep. Some autistic people are ethically dubious numberphiles, and as long as that's depicted realistically and empathetically I don't mind. (And lily's anti-dramady advice PISSES ME OFF. There are plenty of shows that do that really well, like Moral Orel.) And as a rape survivor- in my opinion it's dangerous to act like abusers can't abuse because that completely ignores the cycle of abuse.
Also, this could just be a me thing, but in the circles I run in, autism really amounts to a cluster of atypical personality traits more so than anything else. If a character has irrational and hyper specific interests, which they understand more thoroughly than anyone else around them, and isn’t the best at reading the room, does it really make a difference if the text explicitly calls them autistic or not?
May you please give the timestamp of the part where that happens? Thanks!
moral orel my beloved
@@sealogic4552
there's a reason the DH9 used to avoid diagnosing symptoms unless they started to interfere with day to day life.
the medical industrial complex started to get out of hand so if little jimmy started to act a bit rambunctious its Ritalin time.
Yeah my abuser was very much abused growing up. I mean I didn't know much about his life, but the vibes I got and the way he spoke about his dad (my abuser was my ex-stepdad) it sounded like he grew up pretty rough, especially since his dad was in the military and my ex-stepdad was a military kid. But also I agree with the whole autistic rep thing as the previous one is about nonbinary characters being a non-human shapeshifter, and while yes, I do agree that that there needs to be more nonbinary rep and more better nonbinary rep that isn't just "skinny white person who looks masc but is very much seen as just woman-lite". I remember being a kid and wanting to become a shapeshifter, I'm sure every nonbinary and trans binary person wanted to be a shapeshifter because it was cool as (maybe not everyone but most nonbinary and trans binary folks I speak to often say this about themselves).
"Artists draw, writers write"
all the comic artists out there who write their own comics: Well, shit fam, you got me there
I used comics, but there are more examples of course. Artists involved in the writing of their show, eriters who illustrate their own books and make their own covers... no on is only one thing, Lily, and that applies to us as well.
I know, I guess according to lily I don't fucking exist
Manga authors be like:
@@qoyote, Tetsuya Nomura would be the only claim in Japanese video games that that the artist makes great art designs, but he has makes an impossible story to follow through for new beginners of Kingdom Hearts.
Me, an aspiring artist who also writes and look up to Genndy, storyboard artists, and mangaka: Yo wtf?
What lily wants are small character centric stories where the characters don’t have personalities, and no conflict. So effectively a glass of water
That's perfect my god.
She wants those "coffee shop AU" stories where the characters just chill at a coffee shop and face no conflict or development.
That's insulting to water!
@@darrelsam419 That's not fair too Coffee shop stories though because they might have conflict٫I also say stories because it's not a au.
And that same thing is what she complained about Korra, being small character centric stories and claimed they don't have personalities..
Imagine getting sexually assulted, becoming a worse person due to trauma, working on yourself, writing a character based on that, and getting called a misogynistic pig 💀
Yes, thank you for your tip.
“Rocky horror is written by a terf” …Rocky horror was written by a non-binary person lol. Lily has a tendency to call people she dislikes “terfs” even when the people are literally trans lmao
I will say there are some trans people who work with TERFs (Blair White for example)
But that is obviously not what Lily meant
In fairness, the creator has said things that sound a little terfy. I don’t think he actually *is* a terf (deeper investigation into his identity makes that feel a little impossible) but I understand how someone can come to that conclusion when hearing quotes out of context.
That being said, transphobia is quite a serious charge, and I certainly wouldn’t throw it around to people who I don’t *know* have earned it.
Not to mention, rocky horror just *is* an important facet of queer art. We can’t just burn the path we carve as we walk over it, and pretend everything about culture is perfect. Humans are imperfect, and so must our art be.
finally someone mentions this!! not to mention she acts like a queer story that came out half a century ago and was a trailblazer for queer media should be criticized as if it came out today without understanding the historical and cultural context of its inception. and even then the film was extremely ahead of its time and still is in a lot of ways.
It must be so fucking boring to live in Lily's world istg
Same human who voiced Lawrence Fletcher.
She literally said in her Owl House review that she's sick of world building in fantasy worlds. How....that's the point of a fantasy world! Not everything has to be slice of life but that's what she wants from a show that clearly isn't taking that route!
What’s wrong with magical beings leeching off a giant demon corpse!?!!??!???! It’s so metal, the heck. What’s her deal.
I love shitting on Lily too, but I do understand to some degree: I kinda like world building and I understand that lore dumps are generally poorly received. But your characters and your plots rely on your setting to be meaningful. You don't need to provide all the details in one go, but if something needs explaining for the actions of your characters to make sense in their situation, then developing some depth in the world draws people in to your story.
"sick of world building in fantasy worlds"
Oh my god Lily why the fuck are you watching FANTASY CARTOONS THEN?!? THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT!
Besides world-building is one of the important things you do when making fantasy worlds
It's not that she's sick of world building, it's that there's too much focus on that in a generic sense rather than filling out either character development or more detailed info of a smaller scale world. I.e.: MLP and She-Ra had like 10-20+ different areas of the map each, and like a dozen main or supporting characters, whereas Moana and Frozen had much smaller world builds, and fewer characters, but a much more compelling story considering the character arc and size of the project, regardless of pacing (series v movies) What makes a good story isn't how big it is, it's in the details and ability to portray the plot and character development effectively. And I love MLP and She-Ra, but having 3-5 main characters and a smaller world are much more manageable concerning the actual storytelling. For instance, many TH-camrs are entertaining people just sitting in a room with a plain white backdrop. There's 1 character, and no world development, yet it's a lucrative market as a form of media for years and years of content. Why is that, if world building is such a superior method of story telling? Why aren't their videos focused on showing off their homes more? It's not only applicable in fantasy, it's applicable to multiple forms of writing and media. A big world means telling stories about that world. If you make a world big without any actual details, then there's really no point in making it or showing it off. It would be like watching the news, but all they do is show the place an event happened without the story. Like showing the Twin Tower rubble, and not even talking about 9-11 or the details of the event. It's not a story, it's barely even a title or caption. No one would understand what's going on without the story itself. The world alone is not good enough to actually say much of anything about a story. That's why. It's not that you shouldn't build the world, but if your main focus is on super old lore that isn't current and the world itself, and not on your story, you may end up with a gorgeous world but no story. It works for games where the player is the storyteller, but not for movies, shows, or books where your perspective is a third person observer. Having a world is fine, but actually use it efficiently. Having an unmanageable, detail lacking world doesn't necessarily add to anything.
"don’t turn a comedy into a drama, it annoys people"
nearly every comedy I enjoy becomes deeper than the surface, turning into a drama
see kids' cartoons, like adventure time! it's silly and fun but genuinely deep and interesting. both can be good if executed properly, and it's honestly kind of bland if a series, etc strictly sticks to ONE genre the entire time.
I feel like in some cases (or may I say, even possibly most) turning a comedy into a drama heavily increases the quality of a show. For example, Bojack Horseman's comedy didn't really click with me, at ALL. But as soon as the plot started picking up, hoo boyyyy
helluva boss:
SMG4:
Isn't that the entire character of Saul Goodman and everyone loves Better Call Saul lol?
I feel like if Lily left her children's cartoon bubble for a moment and watched something like, say, Midsommar, her head would explode.
she would turn to dust if she watched The Sopranos or something
@@enviisyk Don't tell Lily about anything made by David Lynch
That reminds me of when I was 14 and I jumped straight to the book 'We Need to Talk About Kevin' after mostly consuming YA for a few years prior lol
She'd have a heart attack with no country for old men
She tried watching delicious in dungeon - a fantasy anime that has all adult characters aimed at an older audience and hated everything about it, ignored all the nuance, and hated that there are multiple tone differences per episode bc comic relief and serious moments can happen in the same episode
Honestly, that one about the only difference between a close platonic relationship and a romantic relationship was REALLY insulting as an aromantic person. It implies that aromantic people like me can’t have close friendships. It also implies that heteroromantic people can’t have close friendships with people of the same gender and vice versa.
FR. The DIFFERENCE is how your brain reacts to that person. There's a clear distinction between being in love and platonically love someone, which I don't feel cause I'm aromantic too, but there's a sexual and obsessive factor that create a distinction. Also wtff I literally consider my BROTHER my best friend!
Totally agree. I'm straight, and I would absolutely say I love my friends, but it's very different from how I feel about romantic partners/people I'm interested in. There are multiple types of love!
WAIT you're telling me there really is a difference between liking someone as a friend and liking them romantically? Oh my god am I aromantic?
I don't think the romantic type of love is special. And I am started to think that the romantic type of love isn't real. I mean about more than half of romantic couples either break up with each other or divorce each other, while most platonic best friends remain friends until death.
I think that having a platonic best friend is a lot better than having a romantic partner or spouse is.
Having someone who's like a sibling to you is a lot better than having a romantic partner or spouse. Also, you are more likely to be much more closer to someone who's like a brother or sister to you than you would be with a romantic partner or spouse.
People tend to fight with their partner or spouse a lot more than they do with a platonic best friend, and you never fight with your best friend the way you fight with your partner or spouse.
Partners and spouses are just temporary. If you break up or divorce them, it's hard to go back to them. With your platonic best friend, you're going to make things work, because they are your best friend, they are your go to partner. It's always easier to make amends with them than it is with a romantic partner or spouse.
Romantic relationships are pointless, while platonic relationships are not.
@@icysnow57cold64 just become something is temporary, it doesn't make it pointless or fake.
"Slice of Life has always been a more popular genre than action/adventure"
Ah yes, the best selling movie Avengers Endgame, the Slice of Life.
It actually makes total sense. Thanos sliced life in half, and the Avengers put the two slices of life back together.
OH YEAAH! TOOTALLY NOT a movie full of battles and action itself!
Really? Avatar is super popular and it isn’t slice of life.
@@mackielunkey2205 I personally can’t stand slice-of-life
@@zzz43344 Prolly because of lack of action or some following similar setting/cliches assuming if they are slice of life high school animes.
"Only have one straight white cis character" *praises Friends*
i mean i guess if you go by super old-timey standards (like "is the Irishman truly human" old-timey) only rachel counts as white
Man, she's gonna have a heart attack when she watches _Hilda_ , a show with mostly white characters - some of them even literally.
@@ARCtheCartoonMaster But Lily said she *liked* Hilda, didn't she?
@@zzz43344 Admittedly, I don’t watch Lily’s content, but yeah - she’s a hypocrite if she likes _Hilda_ after what she said.
@@ARCtheCartoonMaster Oh
Coming back to rewatch this for the fourth or fifth time and realizing something interesting: Lily's standard for a "good character" is not a character who is interesting, or one who is entertaining, or one who serves the story well. It's all about making a character that represents an ideal, supports a specific standard and gets a very specific reaction from the right kind of people. It has nothing to do with the actual story the character is a part of.
You got her.
My assessment of it is that Lily's standard of quality has almost nothing to do with the merit of the work of fiction, and basically everything to do with how many tropes does it have that she likes vs how many she dislikes. Basically, "I approve of what happens in this show, therefore it is good."
That's just not criticism.
She wants every story to be about superman. Not the interesting, well written version of superman either. The bland and boring one, that's just an ideal devoid of personality, that's a good person just cuz.
Sounds like she wants her own fanservice character
"rule 11 dont pair adults with children"
"rule 12 dont sexualiz3 teenage characters"
me: (slowly looks at lily orchard's stockholm)
and most of all, "don't write lesbian noncon" LMFAO
@@junolyssesthat’s just a bad writing tip 😂
@@junolyssestoxic yuri enjoyers sobbing rn
@@moonseaeeveelutionsdance8863 i love me some toxic yuri but there's a difference between that and straight up writing pedo rape "romance" like lily did 😭 there's no nuance to it
“I DEFINITELY DON’T DO THESE TOXIC THINGS, BELIEVE ME!”
“characters don’t have sexual agency, you made them that way” characters don’t have emotions, you made them that way
Characters don't have [INSERT ANYTHING THAT APPLIES TO REAL PEOPLE], you made them that way.
characters, you made them
@@augustswater7845
" a a a a a a a " - My knee when I walk too close to the table
@@Luigicat11 Got a good gut chuckle with that 1
For any-one who knows about Earl Dube, does this sound like the inverse of something he would say to justify his Attractions?
Lily needs to be beat with the, "There are many kinds of love," stick. Platonic, Romantic, Familial, Obsessive, Unconditional, etc. For crying out loud, I love my friends and family, to death; but I don't think hanging out with them, going to get dinner, hugging or snuggling on a couch watching a movie, or kissing the forehead or cheek goodbye means all of them are potential "partners." I literally scream at the thought. They're irreplaceable pieces of my life, but let's be real, how we show we care about each other is different from one to another and to varying degrees. It's love, but not the kind of love Miss Orchard seems to think is the only thing that exists.
I love you for this comment.
this is why we should speak greek!!
@@WeRNotAlive Platonically! :3
Also, you guys mentioned some top tier anime in this video. Baccano!, JoJo, and Dorohedoro are some of my personal faves. Good show.
Hang on while I screenshot this. I'm gonna need it for SO many shippers online.
This is all the "shipping" culture is pushing nowadays. If you turn to look at someone and smile, it means you're lovers.
Lily never did that middle school worksheet where they go over the difference between facts and opinions, did she?
Middle school?
@@Stickman_Productions It was trivially easy, but yeah, pretty sure I filled that one out in 6th grade Language Arts
@@pigcatapultSee I was doing that before middle school in my curriculum. Like 4th or 5th grade, lol.
I got several of those
i'm curious now what that kinda sheet would look like and how much i'd disagree with it
Okay, but, the thing is...why do people have such a hard time believing in a character not wanting to kill people? I have moments where I want to sock someone in the face, sure, but...killing people is killing people. If I found out I even accidentally killed someone, it would turn my stomach. I think the majority of us would be horrified if we went into a fight intending to just rough someone up and ended up accidentally killing them.
I never understood the argument some people put forth about how "X hero is okay with beating down on villains but not killing them???" because, motherfucker, beating someone to a pulp is a whole different level from actually killing them. Is it so hard to believe that fictional characters would have the same hang-ups as us everyday people?
Because Lily is solely motivated by hate and violence. That's literally it.
I think the only scenario where it makes sense is where the hero is perfectly okay sticking knives in random thugs but angsts about killing the evil overlord
Play the game OMORI. It's about this.
If youre okay with risking giving brain damage or other terrible injuries to evil people, but not killing, thats a character flaw, and extremely selfish, especially since those villains usually end up doing harm or straight up killing innocents when they inevitably return
@@wheatleythebrick2276 A. I don't know about you, but I'D rather live on with a hospital visit, and some bad wounds, than be killed.
B. The villains are going to PRISON after they're healed, so unless they're going to arkham asylum, which will inevitably be busted open somehow, they're not harming anybody.
But an anti-hero still does heroic things, doesn't he? A villain protagonist just means it's a bad guy who's a protagonist. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Protagonists aren't inherently heroic or good.
*They
That’s what I thought.
@@scorch2155 he starts out as an anti hero. but he is the full on villain of the first half of season 5.
I read a story in the person of the villain, this is true.
@@scorch2155 Walter white is an anti-villain, doing bad morals for a complex and sympathetic reasoning.
An anti-hero isn't just "protagonist" it's a hero who doesn't do things all too heroic.
Roland Deschain from Stephen King's Dark Tower is a great example
As an autistic man, I do think a non-autistic person can have a valid look and opinion on what is/isn't good autistic representation, provided they do the research and preferably talk to actual autistic people.
i'm autistic too and i agree with you but i just wanted to point out that lily is actually autistic :) i don't even like her content, but when they said that she doesn't have experience with autism so she shouldnt speak on it, it bugged me for the same reason you said plus the fact that she literally is autistic herself.
@@daver7910 Ah, good to know. I didn't even know Lily, I just like writing stuff and long videos. Yeah, that definitely makes the criticism ring a little louder.
Also an autistic (not severely, but on the spectrum) person. Sometimes, people who have the problem/complication you're depicting are not always the best people to speak on it or criticise. Being autistic means that I can speak on what it's like, but the very fact that I am autistic does not mean that I can always decide what is and is not okay with how we are portrayed. This applies to everything, race, background, sexuality- look, my point is that people in minorities are not without fault, and portraying us in realistic or negative ways is not bigotry. The very fact that the only gay person in a story is a villain is not homophobia. It only becomes homophobia if the FACT that they are gay is used as part of the way they are villainised.
Same can be said for stereotypes. Yeah yeah, don't rely on solely stereotypes to create your characters and definitely don't writes shallow characters, but most stereotypes have some root in reality, and portraying a stereotype is not inherently offensive. Flaboyant gay people exist in real life, and having one in your story isn't objectively a problem. Perpetuating the idea that "gay people are just like that" IS the problem. It's that distinction that people like Lily can't seem to understand. You have to look beyond the surface level traits of a character to know the difference. It's like monotone commentary videos, the fact that the creator's voice doesn't SOUND emotional doesn't inherently make it unbiased, you have to look past that initial layer and actually get into the meat and potatoes of the content before you can judge the story and the creator.
Bringing this back to autism, portraying an autistic character as great with numbers is certainly a stereotype, and autistic people are more versatile than that, but that doesn't mean it's offensive or unrealistic. A lot of autistic people become mathematicians, coders, technicians, etc because in many cases autism does greatly help in highly technical fields. It's not like portraying that is innaccurate or offensive. If you, an autistic person, are taking extreme offense at the very portrayal of a stereotype or a villain who happens to be autistic, YOU are the problem.
@@themindfulmoron3790 Couldn't have put it better myself. This should be the comment at the top of the chain, much better than mine.
@@themindfulmoron3790 Absolutely. I'm on the spectrum, and a lot of my favorite characters are either autistic, autism-coded, or are tech geniuses. Just because they're stereotypes doesn't mean they're bad characters. Giving Entrapta problems with social communication and making the others perceive her as rude isn't offensive to me...it's realistic. I was treated as a weirdo and a jerk by my peers in middle school, because I didn't know how to talk to people like everyone else. I accidentally offended people by the way I talked in middle school, and a lot of kids bullied me over it. Making Peridot cocky, unaware of social norms/structure, and somewhat insensitive isn't making autistic people out to be bad people, especially when the writers didn't even change a lot of those aspects when they redeemed her, except to make her less of a jerk (basically unlearning the racism and homophobia she was taught back on Homeworld). Giving autistic characters flaws isn't villainizing them. It's making them human. Which is something underrepresented groups need more than anything else.
I don't understand why people get so pressed when characters from marginalized groups aren't "perfect" and they have flaws that affect how other people see them. I mean, why can't people who are different just be human? It's like saying every neurodivergent, POC, or LGBTQ+ character can't be a villain for the sake of "wokeness." To me, that's as bad as (if not worse than) villainizing them. Because you're still dehumanizing them, except it looks better because you're making them out to be God-like saints. That's where it can get to a point of fetishization, which is no better than discrimination.
How Lily Orchard can literally write some of the most vile shit I have ever seen and then preach that the best stuff is only clean and conflictless is insane to me.
SERIOUSLY, a story without a conflict is like ,,, legitimately pointless
@@dxitydevil Yeah. The conflict is the core element of storytelling that drives the characters and the plot in the first place.
@@poweroffriendship2.0 fr LOL 😭
As a gay man, I hate this idea that characters shoul never conform to stereotypes. Lots of people in real-life do, the key to me seems to be to make them fully-fledged people with their own internal complexities, conflicts, motivations, and reasons why they feel more comfortable being this way. Flamboyant gay men exist and have the right to representation too, especially since for many it's as a deconstruction of gender norms, and we don't necessarily need a token manly gay to contrast him to, at some point it's falling into a whole bunch of different clichés. There's always room for nuance in fiction.
Yeah but she didn't say never she's said don't make your only "blank" character "stereotype"
@@themechanic9974 And even that lacks a lot of nuance. It's a generalization based on bad uses of tropes, but you can always find ways to use a trope in a more meaningful way, even if your "blank" character conforms to sterotypes about "blank" and is the only "blank" character in the story. It all depends on context, who wrote it that way and why.
I find it really ironic that Lily shits on redemption arcs but she likes a show like "Hazbin Hotel" where its entire premise is literally redeeming people.
It's because it mainly poses as a Slice of Life starring 2 lesbians, The most stereotypical flamboyantly gay personality if you tried, and Alastor.
I have to wonder how Lily would react to something like Bojack Horseman.
@@davidpaul6290 I remember a phrase from one of her newer videos where she was comparing a lot of adult animation to Family Guy, and listed Bojack Horseman as, "Family Guy, for abusive narcissists." Which Im not really sure how she came to that conclusion since even though the audience sympathizes with Bojack, the show clearly states multiple times that he is not a good person. I could try to find the link to where she said it if you want.
@@greggsilverson4875 Please do.
@@davidpaul6290 Found it, th-cam.com/video/VUAu3prsGD8/w-d-xo.html
My quote wasn't exactly word for word correct, but close enough.
"Rule 41:Rape victims(survivors) shouldn't be villains" stood out to me because there's an old Punisher comic where the villain was a rape survivor, she was raped by a taxi driver, and then began serial killing taxi drivers. Punisher goes undercover as a taxi driver, and finds her. He tries to talk her out of this, but he ends up killing her in defense. He later monologues that she had gone after the wrong people. If she had gone after rapists, he'd have gladly helped her.
Also, Punisher is the protagonist of his stories, but certainly not a hero, which I think broke another one of Lily's "rules".
Abuse victims can become just as, if not worse, than their abusers. Lily doesn't believe in this because she believes that they are "justified" in reacting with harsher violence towards people who most likely had nothing to do with what happened to them.
Often the difference between villain and hero is misplaced anger. I like stories like these cause they teach us to be more careful with our hate.
Yeah, an dynamic I loved is that under slightly different circumstances the hero(if they give in to there hate and vices) and villain(let go of there hate and vices) they would best of Allies
A fellow punisher Stan I see 💜
the thing is, I kind of get it because not every abused person becomes an abuser. more often than not, they don't. but it absolutely can happen and it DOES happen. generational abuse is a perfect example of this. a lot of serial killers came from horrible backgrounds.
"Fans do not need to be serviced"
"Here is an exact checklist of how you need to represent all the minorities in specific ways"
She does the opposite of that tho?
quality over quantity when it comes to underrepresented groups. however, i’d argue having no minorities is fan service to the majority groups. gives them escapism from the reality that other people exist
I think it’s important to remember that it’s also perfectly fine to write something with no focus or consideration applied to representation. There don’t NEED to be any lgbtq characters in your story at all, if you want to use your narrative for that application that’s totally fine, but not wanting to do that is equally valid. I personally have never written an lgbtq character, and have no real intent to. I am most definitely not
lgbtq-phobic, my sister is a lesbian and I have a good friend who is trans. All there is to it is that I don’t want to write social justice advocacy, that’s simply not something I want to touch, and I think that’s perfectly fine. It’s not fan service to the majority groups to sometimes leave certain minorities out, it may just be that your narrative doesn’t have shelf space for representation, and that cramming it between the narrative stuff on the shelf only harms the story. If you really care about representation to the degree that you can’t enjoy or look down on stories without representation, you aren’t really interested in quality narrative, just quality representation.
@@0rion5212 You can write whatever you want, nobody's stopping you. But this does somewhat read as there being... sort of a misunderstanding about the subject?
Including minority characters doesn't immediately mean you're writing social justice advocacy. All it means is that one of the characters is a minority; it does not have to have _any_ bearing on the narrative, especially if that's not the story you're trying to tell.
It can genuinely just be as simple as "This male character has a male love interest instead of a female one!" or "This character is Black!" Obviously if you're avoiding romance entirely, sexuality is irrelevant. But if you've made your characters believable as people, details like that are not immediately 'social justice advocacy': they're just another detail about a multifaceted character.
Just a quick reminder (as someone who is part of this demographic): “victim” is not a bad word. If a person forces someone to do something against their will, that someone is a victim. You don’t need to correct someone for saying “rape victims” unless they are referring to you specifically. I just see the way that erasing victimhood from our language is a slippery slope to telling victims how to respond to, react to, heal from, or self-identify after what happened to them.
“Werewolves work best as a metaphor for predators” really rubs me the wrong way because most werewolf characters were turned into werewolves against their will. Her metaphor implies people who have been preyed upon and hurt by abusive monsters are doomed to become predatory abusive monsters themselves. Ironically while complaining about how one metaphor treats a group of people as others, she supports another metaphor that treats a group of people as others. Werewolves as predators” also paints predators and abusers as having no control over their actions. Not thinking beyond the surface level seems to be a chronic problem of Lily’s.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was really put off by the idea of wrapping up entire groups of people as just... creatures. Even bad people, because then it's easy to forget that anyone can become that way, and that you can become a better person.
Also... does she think that cishet people are the ones using vamps and wolves as LGBT allegories?? Because from what I've seen it's less we're branded with this and more we adopted it. I mean, c'mon... creatures of the night ostracized by society and/or forced to pretend to be "normal" so they can be accepted (lest they be run out of town), because society has labeled their needs and desires as predatory, diseased, unholy, or just plain inhuman? And they're also super, super sexy? Yeah, of COURSE we latched onto that lol
It's almost as if far leftism is completely built upon rampant hypocrisy. /(O^O)\ GASP
@@CaptainDCap Politics is more than IDPOL, dude.
@@autumnox2174 You're right! Far leftists disagree.
@@CaptainDCap Why must you bring politic on the table ?
I will forever defend Aang not killing the fire lord, because as much as people think it's a cop-out to a logical solution, THEMATICALLY it's right for the series. The fire lord's life is spared because of the beliefs of the very culture his country wiped out. It comes full circle to the events the kickstarted the series, while showing both the fire lord and the audience that the air nomads' culture has value and deserved to survive. Throwing it away would have just been proving the villain right.
INCREDIBLY GOOD TAKE
I'm going to steal this take to use it against people in the future if you don't mind.
Big Joel made a video about it..
For sure, a lot of people hate the pacifist ending but it's all dependent on the story.
It also fitting because it removes the one thing the fire lord has ever cared about. Which if you think about it is probably worse then outright killing him.
Also with rule 14 people who may not realize they may be gay/trans/ace, seeing it as a metaphor in a character could be an eye opening experience.
I would also like to point out that the idea of not being allowed to talk about something that you are not specifically apart of is dumb. I'm ADHD not Autistic does this mean I can't specifically talk about symptoms of Autism just because I'm ADHD? Of course not because I'm allowed to have opinions, can i be criticized for that opinion, and the face consequences if necessary yes. However it does not mean i then relinquish all my opinions of that topic. Now If I don't know enough information to make an opinion based on factual evidence (sources being from personal like ethnical experiences to Neurodivergency, and websites being well known and credible) that is completely different. What I am trying to explain is that people are allowed to make an opinion entirely based around there own educational/personal experience. Even if you don't agree.
Sorry for the stupid-long paragraph I just wanted to get this off my chest
@@Doodles.Lion153 yep, "stay in your lane" is supposed to mean "don't talk over/dismiss people when they bring up problems faced in their group." It doesn't mean "you're not allowed to write or interact with other groups ever." That's just segregation with extra steps.
Also, one can accidentally write a gay metaphor. And run with it respectfully.
This is one thing I really love about the Matrix
Even the "good" tips are written so condescendingly that it makes one want to break them out of spite
Furthermore, the actual good tips are so embedded within that at this point these tips are correctly derided as more things she can say just because.
Honestly disagree on Aang being a simp, Aang has disagreed with Katara a lot
I specifically remember an instance where Aang was really angry at Katara because she stole a water-bending scroll for their training and it violated his principles even though he knew they stole it in the first place.
@@Tengokuchi I thought that was Sokka, but Aang did disagree with Katara about going on a revenge mission
@@sneakysneakyraccoon8538 Oh you are right. Sokka was the one who got mad at her. Their argument was when Aang was naturally good at water bending and she got mad at him. I may have mixed the two up.
Wasn't it also a big point of one of the later episodes how Aang was strongly against Katara wanting to get revenge on the man who murdered her mother?
Yeah, no he didn't. How often did he disagree with her? Katara was always Aang's main confidant and the first person he went to for guidance.
These sound more like a guide to pleasing Lily Orchard instead of good writing advice.
Didn't you know? There is no God, ONLY LILY ORCHARD!!
...and Zuul
Are you trying to tell me Lily believes there's a difference?
Most things are guide to do so...
It's like a "how to write a story that Lily Orchard would like" book of a hundred pages
Bet if even I try to follow basically all of her advice,she would still get pissed off at my work
66 makes me so incredibly uncomfortable as a woman. The amount of "best friends" I've had that grow feelings for me and become completely different when I don't return them is way too high and usually ends in me losing that friend. These experiences have ruined the "friends to lovers" trope for me.
Lily saying that a girl's best option is their best friend 100% of the time teeters on the incel belief that women owe them their affections just because they're nice to them.
But like Lilly is a woman and umm most of the time you need to be friends before you become lovers not all the time but most
@@themechanic9974 Are you under the assumption a woman can't be an incel?
@@WestGarbage6 no not at all
@@themechanic9974 Not a concrete answer, no to you not thinking that way, or no to women being incels being a thing?
@@WestGarbage6 it's a pretty concrete answer to the actual question that question being are you under the assumption that women can't be incels
Lily hating the concept of redemption is hillarious because:
1) she likes Hazbin Hotel, a show about trying to redeem sinners
2) pretty sure she needs some redemption herself lol
Now, to be fair, she did explain why it worked for her there.
It was all a fat load, but she did explain it.
Hey guys! Quick story, I actually quit writing my passion project of 2 years a few months after watching Lily's content. Her tips made me think my story was too flawed to save. Back in December, I watched this video, and it inspired me to start writing it again. I came back to thank you for helping me see past Lily's black-and-white ideas and come into my own as a writer. I owe you two a lot.
Edit: Thank you to everyone for all your support! Your replies always make my day. Happy writing to us all! May we live to see our own hour-long videos on Lily's channel.
Don't let other people make you lose faith in your creation. You can't make something appeal to everyone. So make something that appeals to you.
@@Normaschthewanderer Thank you ^w^ That's a good tip
@@zoeglass And she's not a writer. All she has are opinions and what seems to be nigh-impossible standards and an aversion to the smallest conflicts that drive even character stories, though she seems to focus on fantasy and cartoons and fantasy cartoons. You know, the PLOT driven stuff. Rainbows and sunshine seem to be too complex for her worldview, which might be why she's such a bitter contrarian.
Be open to criticism, of course, absolutely. You'll never escape it, that's just how it is. But listen to your beta readers, your sensitivity readers, people who can tell you 'no' and be constructive about why the 'no' is a 'no'. Yesmen are almost as bad as bad-faith actors like Lily Orchard. Yesmen will stunt your growth: bad-faith actors will steamroll you.
I wish you the best! If you decide to publish - because you WANT to - I can't wait to read it!
@@zoeglass Absolutely! Again, just always be open to criticism, be it about syntax/grammar or plot holes or reasonable character flaws vs out of character moments to fit the plot. I learned the hard way as a baby writer lol. Because you're right, NUANCE is the balancing act. A lot of Booktubers are great but Lily Orchard is not a Booktuber. Or a writer. Or as big the big-name fan with the relevant takes on the zeitgeist that she thinks she is and has. She's a broken clock, right twice a day but that's it. And the times she was right in this list were 'yeah, no duh' moments. Not a visionary.
Again, wish you the best! I need to line up my thesaurus and other research tabs and get to work lol. Take care ^_^
@@zoeglass Don't listen to her and let her control your ideas, girl, you deserve to have your story heard. By the way, what was your story about?
OKAY as an archer, rule 72 is bullshit.
1. Bows can have so many different draw weights
2. Different people show muscle in different ways
3. I'm friends with a GB archer who shoots a recurve bow - she's not some body builder, she has muscle but it's more being defined - at the end of the day she's still 20 and still has a 20 year old's physique
Im at rule 13 right now and I am terrified of where this is going now
exactly. i'm an archer too and lily clearly doesn't know anything about archery. i shoot recurve. i've lost strength recently for some medical reasons but i used to shoot a 40 pound recurve and my arms were literally sticks. my uncle who ALSO shot a 40 pound recurve at the time was built like a truck. the kind of strength you require for archery isn't just a brute force huge muscles situation. you do have to have strength, but you can still honestly look quite small. hell, just look at some professional archers for that matter. most of them are quite lean with clear muscle definition rather than any brawn.
"As an archer" is an unironically cool line
Yeah, I think it's telling that Lilly tries to gate keep things in ways that reveal her ignorance to people that actually know what they're talking about.
I've found that the most important parts of target archery are endurance and efficiency. Drawing too long tires your muscles, and then you start to get shakey, making you less accurate. And shooting for long enough will just tire you out either way. It's kind of like bowling; you're really just focusing on building the muscles that make those motions easier.
literally some weeks ago i got a short in my feed where a literal archer was prooving that you don't have to be a bodybuilder to shoot a goddamn arrow
In Aladdin, there's a scene where magic-empowered Jaffar tries to wish for Jasmine to be in love with him and while he's arguing with Djinni, she notices Aladdin trying to steal the lamp back. She kisses Jaffar when he's about to notice, but the power is in Jasmine's hands entirely at that point because it's CLEARLY a trick to fool the bad guy. Once again, *context is key*
As a trans (and ace) person, I actually disagree with tip 14. I like reading trans metaphors generally more than I like trans main characters. Trans representation is important and having trans characters is great, but when it comes to writing the topic, it's easier for me to consume media that is indirectly telling that same story instead of media that is directly reflecting my trauma back at me.
*As a fatherless individual
@@huguesdepayens807 please clarify?
@@stygian6642 What happened for you to turn out like this?
@@huguesdepayens807Fatherless individuals look around TH-cam to randomly scope out people they don't like to harass them.
This is your life, if you had a job, you wouldn't have time for this.
@@huguesdepayens807 Shit man, what happened for YOU to turn out like this? You scrolled all the way down just to find somebody to shit on? That's so laughably pathetic I can't even begin to imagine what your day-to-day must look like. Stay losing lmao
Why are so many of these "tips" just "Don't do this, or you are a huge turd." Just comes off as "I don't like this, if you do it, I hate you."
That's pretty much what is happening through out the whole thread
fr tho. The so-called "If you do this, you're wrong" tips make me less inclined to listen to the tip-giver, let alone trust them. maybe it's just me, but I'm personally more drawn towards "Watch out for this," or "be aware of that"
It’s just tips it’s criticism and is meant to say things that improve the skill you cant improve if everyone is telling you it’s fine you need criticism
Welcome to Lily's channel
@@desolatemess9612 The problem arises when the person giving the """criticism""" is acting like an upset child.
“11. Don’t pair adults with minors. That’s pedophilia.”
That’s a VERY BOLD thing to add in from someone who’s written Stockholm.
Pardon?
@@KirbyLinkACW Oh you don’t know? Probably best to keep it that way.
I haven't heard, but I'm guessing from the name alone there's material in there that would make her a hypocrite
@@bitbit5598 lets just say it includes the very subject she’s telling us not to write. That’s all I have to say on the matter.
I agree with this rule, but Lily should really take her own advice before preaching at us
i absolutely hate the blanket statement of "never make a character kiss their abuser" because Captain Spaceboy from Omori is one of the best depictions of abuse survivors i've ever seen and he kisses Sweetheart before eventually realizing she's a horrible person (at least in the hikkikomori route) and beginning his recovery. that entire arc wouldn't hit as hard if he wasn't affectionate with Sweetheart at the start. you can depict toxic relationships, as long as you acknowledge that they're toxic.
I will gradually edit this.
2:10 Spoliers (1)
2:55 Seasons and couples (2)
5:29 Friends and enemies to lovers (3)
7:22 Abuse victims and redemption arcs (4)
8:43 Heroes not killing villains (5)
12:50 She-Ra ending (Kissing and being revolutionary) (6)
15:52 Twitter and revealing story details (7)
16:45 10k body count (8)
21:06 Exception to tip 8 (9)
22:08 Wished to be there (10)
24:01 Pedophiles (11)
25:22 Don’t sexualize teenagers (12)
26:34 Excuses for pedos (13)
28:25 LGBT metaphors (14)
30:02 Non human LGBT (15)
31:32 Gay man (16)
32:40 Lesbian (17)
33:44 Non-binary Shapeshifter (18)
34:46 Autistic (19)
36:25 Black people (20 and 21)
37:40 Trans women being drag queens (22)
38:34 Women kissing their abusers (23)
40:04 Nonwhite sidelining (24)
42:24 Sexual agency and horny armor (25)
45:08 Addition to the above (26)
47:00 Not planning things out (27)
49:48 Don’t do Avatar (28)
51:06 Friends>Anime (29)
53:11 Comedy and Drama (30)
54:58 Worldbuilding (31)
57:48 Characters coming first (32)
59:56 Villain protagonists (33)
1:05:17 Stylistic choice (34)
1:08:19 Animators and writers (35)
1:08:51 Will and Won’t They (36)
1:09:11 Gay romance tropes (37)
1:09:35 Lesbian rapists (38)
1:10:30 Women Fetish (39)
1:10:56 Twitter and abuse fetish (40)
1:11:28 Rape victims being villains (41)
1:12:53 Straight man and lesbian (42)
1:14:21 Infinity Train (43)
1:15:28 Polyamory (44)
1:16:06 Male “simps” (45)
1:16:44 Mary Sue (46)
1:17:40 Emotional vulnerability (47)
1:18:39 Goblins (48)
1:19:11 Bigoted tropes (49)
1:20:52 Dynamic relationships (50)
1:22:08 Vitriol (51)
1:22:32 A bunch of irrelevant trash that isn’t writing advice (52-59)
1:28:52 Forced diversity (60)
1:29:27 Reclaimed slurs (61)
1:30:33 Fighting oppressors (62)
1:30:53 Heroes not killing villains 2: Electric Boogaloo (63)
1:32:00 Fantasy and diversity (64)
1:32:13 Sexual tension and chemistry (65)
1:32:39 Best friends to lovers (66)
1:33:24 Relationship defined (67)
1:34:08 Romantic subplots (68)
1:34:59 Slow burn (69)
1:35:38 Sexual awakening (70)
1:37:19 Boob armor (71)
1:38:16 Bows and arrows (72)
1:38:46 Tokenism (73)
1:38:56 White cishet (74)
1:39:42 Backlash (75)
1:40:13 LGBTA/POC suffering (76)
1:40:28 Fun storytelling (77)
1:40:48 Slice of life (78)
1:41:31 Feature creep (79)
1:41:44 D&D character alignments (80)
1:42:13 Rocky Horror Picture Show (81)
1:42:45 Queer (82)
1:43:22 Rape and murder (83)
1:43:32 Sex scenes (84)
1:46:27 Strong characters (85)
1:46:57 Peak TV (86)
1:47:07 Addiction (87)
1:49:21 Sunk Cost Fallacy (88)
1:50:33 Continuity (89)
1:50:59 “This is too political” (90)
1:51:11 Disney Movies (91)
1:51:20 Pronouns (92)
1:51:32 Self indulgence (93)
1:51:53 Monsters(94)
1:52:54 Spite (95)
1:53:06 Political systems (96)
1:53:31 Lesbian relationships (97)
1:53:46 Platonic vs romantic (98)
1:55:36 Friends saying “I ❤ U”(99)
1:55:59 Writing tips list and tips vs advice (100-101)
thank you for this lol
These writing tips are all just like “If you kill your supporting character at 11:47 p.m. near a young oak tree at the hands of their former friend using a rusty steak knife, you’re a huge turd.”
Well there goes my manuscript
@@pancakeofdestiny okay but that actually sounds like a Jojos adventure and I wanna read it.
"if I write badly in the woods and no one is around to read it, am I still a huge turd?"
Sounds like a COD zombies Easter egg
@@k.-flynn A turd is a turd, regardless of people being there to refute it as someone/something clearly pooed it.
Edit: That said, I'm gonna change my name to "No one" so I can read what you write while not being dishonest. "No one is around to read it" indeed!
If this woman wrote a show, it would be literally the most milk-toast non-challenging piece of media in the world. 90% of these tips tell people to go into a character as an archetype rather than a person. The archetype in my opinion, should be more apparent to the audience than the writer, because I feel that you should always write a character as a person no matter what their relationship to the story is, and then if they fall into a trope or an archetype, it happens. But it should not be the goal going in.
First off, because I'm a jackass, it's, "milquetoast." Second off, there is no, "second off." I just wanted to act like a jackass for a bit.
Samuel Button
Well, thanks. I actually didn’t know that.
"90% of these tips tell people to go into a character as an archetype rather than a person"
That's just Fire Emblem, though at least that has gameplay justifications.
It'll be Seinfeld yet less nothing going on and less ironic
They did make that show and it's called Friendship is Magic and she learned everything from it.
The amount of advice about managing a fandom is so wild because, like
A) why would you give advice for managing a fandom to people looking for writing advice? Isn’t that putting the cart way before the horse?
B) what credentials do you have to be giving advice on this? You don’t have a fandom around anything you’ve worked on. It’s like a food critic going into the kitchen to tell the chef how to cook. Just because you’re in the space doesn’t mean you know best on how it works.
It's simple she made a typo it's writers tips not writing tip
She has a huge following around lots of her work what are you talking about
Also the suggestion a creator should engage with fandom is odd to me
"Friends is more popular than any anime because it's low stakes"
In my favorite anime the highest stakes are either imaginary sequences or a girl getting bitten by a mean cat lol
*my* favorite anime has a cat girl bitten by a *squirrel*
The MCU is more popular than Horimiya or whatever because the stakes are higher, and if my granddad had wheels he’d be a bike.
Also, Friends existed at a time when you could only watch what came on TV and anime became mainstream much later on, when you could google different shows to watch. Friends having a wider reach (in the West) isn't JUST about the low stakes.
The real source of this "critique" is Lily wanting to pointlessly dunk on annoying nerds in fandoms having annoying conversations and arguments (focusing on pointless minutiae or wrong character interpretation, showing all participants lack of understanding of the material). So, she's logic'd herself into a blanket statement that she believes ends all these arguments. That none of the fandom BS is worth it, so shut up nerds.
Again, not writing advice and really dismissive of art, but that's Lily's behavior uncoded
Bro one of my favorite anime is literally about a socially anxious girl joining a band lol
also "if lesbians like a character then they're better" shut up !!! lesbians aren't superior we're just people oh my GOD
No. You must hate every character I love and vice versa. Apparently.
@PHYLASVELL That’s Lily being a heterophobe.
@@theroleplayinggamer837 i get she's a lesbian herself but her weird obsession with lesbian superiority rubs me the wrong way and idk why. im a lesbian myself but like the way she acts seriously creeps me out
@@phylasvell shes genuinely heterophobic, she always get mad when a straight couple is in her shows and always blames straight people for everything.
@@phylasvell yeah, putting something so superficial (well, sexuality is superficial if you are not looking to court the person anyway) as this super important moral indicator is really toxic
rule 84 (sex scenes aren't necessary) made me remember folding idea's video analyzing a sex scene in tuca and bertie. in it bertie and her boyfriend attempt some bdsm but he accidentaly upsets her by calling her a bad girl. that whole scene was there to play into the show's themes of personal boundaries, and how being with someone is inherently putting yourself at risk of having your boundaries crossed, even if by accident. and a sexual scenario is probably one of the best illustrations of that.
im convinced that Lily has seen Dan's video (or at least knows it exists) and put that rule in there specifically as a response to him. i know this is the case because she does seem to have some kind of axe to grind about breadtube, although for what reason exactly i dont know
Have you ever read a fantasy book called Kushiels Dart? The entire religious system is built around sex, and how to use that in political intrigue. Each scene in th ebedroom we get to actually see is a clever exploration of the characters involved in it, otherwise it will just say something like «and we spendt that night in Nsamah’s embrace» or whatever (Naamah is one of the deities, it’s complicated). It’ such an interesting way to get to know our cast of characters. The scenes aren’t there to be hot, but to show who is selfish and who is domentaing, who can use who for gaine, and who can be lured into divulgin secret information during pillow talk. Every scene is absolutely nessacery. Lily would have a fit trying to comprehend it.
@@MissCaraMint no, never heard of it! sounds very interesting. i'll be sure to pick it up sometime
Sex is a valid topic to explore in media
Yeah, that was really stupid and shortsighted.
My favorite scene in the Berserk manga is a sex scene. Guts and Casca meet again after being separated for a year and finally let all of their emotions out.
Guts suffers from extreme Haphephobia, the fear of being touched, due to being r@ped as a child. Guts suffers a panic attack, due to the last sexual encounter he had being his r@pe. When Guts opens up to Casca about his past, he expects her to reject him and offers to leave her alone. She doesn’t reject him and instead offers him comfort and understanding. This all happens during a sex scene.
Like, all Lily does is watch kids cartoons about pastel unicorns and fairies. No wonder she finds sex disagreeable in her media.
A comment on the "killing is bad" and Aang section:
Aang gives Ozai a fate worse than death (for him), he strips him of what made him so proud and egotistical. He lost his bending, something he held above his own life. If he died, he woulda been happy, since it was to a superior bender. But having it ripped away literally broke him.
Yeah I don't think that is the most important thing. It's that spirit bending got pulled out of nowhere. If they had maybe foreshadowed it and the idea that lion turtles are an important part of the world that can do things like that it would have been fine.
I’ve also seen several people point out this also seems to be a family friendly version of how in a lot of martial arts movies a common “fate worse than death” given to villains is basically to cripple them. So it kind of makes sense from that angle too. Not that I’m defending the weird deus ex machina of it all
Essentially she's saying, 'I only like bland, character centric, conflicless stories, therefore everyone should write that.'
No
ok@@themechanic9974
Yes it is
The "boob armor" thing isn't even a writing tip. It's more of a character or costume design thing.
This is why I don’t care about what these people are saying cause boob goes as far as the fucking Greek mythology was written or spoken by word those goddesses so why the fuck is it suddenly a big deal? Those people just decided that this bothered them this year and now complain about it.
With that said, let me add - do not lump together "boob plate" with bikini armor into same category. First one is plausible if portrayed in practical, logical way, the other is just dumb.
@Tesla-Effect Even then, it would be only commemorative, the dick armor weren't use for real fighting for obvious reasons.
@@cractor6307 you know nothing of history. They were used all the time.
@@TheAnimationStationTAS I'm pretty sure they weren't. At least the dick ones. But if you have evidence of the contrary I would be happy to be corrected
So the ACTUAL writing tips I've learned from this video are "have fun, do what works, don't be a bigot", and I'm here for it
Yeah pretty much. Too many people conflate actual Lily’s bad ideas with her somewhat salvageable politics, and we wanted to take a nuanced approach to that.
Honestly don't even worry about the third thing. If you write any sort of dystopia someone is going to call you either bigoted or a disgusting commie, for example.
@@Fattts No you should definitely worry about being a bigot
@@DeathnoteBB no. You shouldn't. Because no matter what you write or how you write it, people are going to say mean things just to be contrarian. Being afraid of "bigotry" in your writing means a fear of inherent messaging and depth. People who only read surface level will go "wow author wrote bigotry in their story they must be evil I will go whine on **
@@Fattts You’re… literally doing that. Whining on [insert social media here]. So… 🤷
If this list taught me anything, it’s that Lily is allergic to complexity.
I think #24 was aimed at Zuko. Also, with the unredeemable kill count rule, the Doctor from Doctor Who has a kill count somewhere in the trillions, yet people still love and adore them.
zuko aint even white, i'm assuming in the real world he'd be south asian, so, don't really know what she was going for there.
I think stuff like that is why she stipulated “innocent” lives- most of those bodies was in a war. But I agree with your take.
@@triangulum_moriZuko is very much japanese inspired, like most of the fire nation
@@ruansasa289 I'd argue the fire nation takes from multiple sources (much like all the Avatar). Fire nation soldiers have helmets that remind me of samurai, they wield Chinese (I think?) straight swords, they have an emperor and a board of general like the emperor and the shogunate, they have myths about dragons (not really a big thing in Japan compared to China) and so on and so forth.
@@triangulum_moriI think the Fire Nation was inspired by Japan
Can we talk about how she called making rape victims villains misogynistic, implicitly saying men can't be raped? Because... Yikes.
I hope that was unintentional.
@@aaaah540 Considering she used gendered language for general domestic violence as well, I don't think so. I'm a fan of hers, I wanna believe she doesn't have such a shitty take but it's hard to with the context.
I remember i swear she said she got harassed/r@ped.
If thats true *wtf*
@@fruitloops2058 I don't think she'd intentionally caim that, I'l give her the benefit of the doubt on that. I vaguely remember her mentoining men getting raped too in a video, but I might be mistaken on that.
@@SirBlackReeds *She's
If she wanted to make passive-aggressive jabs at cartoons that she's angry with, that's fine, but she didn't have to glorify it by calling it "writing advice."
She is just like this. And, remember, #100 tip is literally just saying "why are you wasting your time asking for advice", while taunt-baiting anyone who would do a react video like the one you are watching..
@@Royalname31
Lily is simply a selfish hubristic hypocrite.
This is Lilly orchard were talking about. Dressing up passive aggressive winging as something more important than it is has been her shtick for years.
@@cherrypopscile3385 I mean, she is both figuratively and literally a "one trick pony". Actually, that would have been a good joke to call her during her brony days
@@cherrypopscile3385 I'm way out of the loop and this was in my recommended, who's lily orchard?
46:17 so what im hearing is....as a bisexual I can write EVERYONE in impractical armour?
a winner is me
Warhammer Dark Eldar moment
I kind of find rule 11 and 12 ironic considering how she wrote Stockholm and groomed several minors. Then she calls everyone who calls her out a bigoted terf, even when they aren’t.
Never groomed anyone you twat
Lily: "Dont try and do what Avatar did"
Me: (remembering the countless times Lily b!tched about how Steven U should have done what Avatar did)
Steven Universe did do a lot of crap wrong. But I don't think following Avatar was the right decision.
It means that shows try to copy Avatar while having no idea what made Avatar actually good in the first place. Things like Zuko's redemption, the concept of the Avatar, and it's interesting but ultimately unimportant world made Avatar great. Future shows tried to run with these concepts and failed miserably
@@deejaydee1578 Tbf, Lily doesn't understand Zuko's redemption arc anyway. 🤷♂️
Lily loves TLA, she's just saying "don't try to write a smash hit". And no, I'm pretty fucking sure she knows EXACTLY what made Zuko's redemption massively impactful.
@@midnightwolfwarrior tip 4 says something else
Not a tip by Lily Orchard (but could as well be), I was on Tumblr one day and some people were seriously proposing that consuming media in which bad things happen to the characters is wrong because "you're gaining pleasure from other people's suffering", and the only times that is acceptable is if all the bad things get solved by the end of the story.
boi.
Interesting idea. It's like Plato's idea of an ideal society, in which theater isn't a thing because nobody needs catharsis. Except, of course, that they can't get this train of thought further than "violence bad".
Are people looking at reviews for old Horror films and making that their world view now?!
That reminds me of one day when I was in an SCP group, I asked "Hey, which SCP is the succubous-like girl whose presence makes every man wanting to rape her and needs to be nude? A friend told me it is interesting for the lore" and everyone was like "Oh my gad, that's so disgusting, edgy, and horrible, you just want to see yourself in that situation", forgetting that we were in an SCP group, some kind of fictional universe where the most popular anomalies are the serial killers and the most popular is a fcking lizard who hates humanity, kills children, is super edgy, a Gary Stu, and the fun is in reading how many times the foundation tried to kill it and failed, we can enjoy serial murderers and anomalies those turn people into monsters and serial killers but nobody shouldn't read an anomaly that involves rape? Ooooookeeeeey.
PD: That anomaly (SCP-166) is one of the most important for the lore of the SCP universe, is almost as if they didn't know about it.
@@juanrodriguez9971 oh I know that scp, I honestly don't care about this story, because it's fiction that doesn't romanticize this horrible thing, so it's not doing harm. If I'm wrong please express your opinions freely to me and I will listen, and by that I mean people who had this horrible experience, because people who didn't can't understand fully, even if they tried.
Ngl thats exxactly the stuff many people in the art community think. Like, now yall relized how dumb yall sound like?? Even here in these comments
Being honest here, I think the ending of The Last Airbender and the villain being spared actually works and benefits the narrative as a whole.
The title of "The Last Airbender" is not just for the story, but it's for Aang as well. People forget that he's not only carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders, he's carrying the weight of an entire *culture* as well.
The Air Nomads were completely eradicated from the earth by Sozin, since he knew the next Avatar would be an Air Nomad, and that was in the same time period Aang ran away from the Southern Air Temple because of him being the Avatar. That in turn lead to him being *THE* last Air Nomad and Airbender, and the only one who could preserve his culture.
It's stated in the series that Air Nomads consider all life to be sacred and worth preserving, thus being the reason not only Aang is a vegetarian, but him being opposed to killing Ozai, as that would oppose everything he stood for culturally and personally.
By choosing to spare Ozai, Aang inadvertently remained true to himself and preserved Air Nomad culture to the end, because if he were to kill Ozai without a second thought, like everyone else was telling him to do, Air Nomad culture would truly *die* in the world of Avatar.
As for him entering the Avatar State after him being punctured in the back, that was justified by not only him having to undergo healing sections with Katara, but it was shown in the same scene that Aang kept flashing back to that moment, because by all means he should be *dead.*
As for Aang being able to take Ozai's bending away, or "energy bending" as it's called, it was already established by Iroh and Guru Patik that you were able to control, or at least separate the energy present in the world. Iroh said that "there is energy all around us", and that is one of the basis for someone to be able to create lightning, by separating positive from negative energy, as well as redirecting lightning by letting the energy of the blow flow through your body and then redirecting it from a different end. And, as demonstrated by Aang in "The Swamp" and by Guru Patik in "Appa's Lost Days" and "The Guru", you're able to sense or control/unlock the energy flow in your body or existing in the world, as Aang was able to sense where Appa and Momo were, and Patik was able to do the same through Appa to tell him where Aang is.
is this a copypasta? i swear i read this somewhere else
This video honestly helped me so much. At the time it came out I was surrounded by people who thought like Lily, and being lonely and desperate to fit in I was starting to fall into that "You must never engage with any problematic media or you're a disgusting person" rabbit hole. It was miserable being in that headspace, and what these people decided was ""problematic"" was abitrary and could change on a dime. This video helped me see how limiting that is, and helped me get out of it. Fun thing, thanks to this video's recommendation I did go and watch 'Snatch' not too long afterwards.
Another thing was also being in a book club with my friends from uni, and it had become an infamous running joke of me showing up having not read the book. I could only ever be on the edge of the discussion, never able to properly engage with what everyone was talking about. After watching this video and you guys begging people to engage more with different media I got off my ass and started reading more regularly again. Since then I have read some fantastic and engaging books. It was just the boost I needed.
I love that all the work on this channel encourages people to engage more with stories and media they love and share that joy. This video came out just when I needed it to. Thank you.
Remember: when it’s Zuko, he did nothing wrong on his own because it can all be traced back to abused, but when it’s Catra, she doesn’t deserve love or growth because she fought Adora earlier
It’s almost like people have double standards.
Don't let this distract you from the fact that Catra had :
- Almost erase reality and make Glimmer lose her mom.
- Scratched one of Octavia eyes out just because she's standing next to her.
- Send Entrapta to Beast Island.
- Abandoned Adora when she need her the most in season 5 ep 11.
- Scratch and Jump on Adora body just because she's hanging out with Lonnie when they're kid.
Even when Zuko was a kid he never act mean and rude to other like Catra
@@ValenArtsAnimation so? Doesn’t make Catra’s arc just disappear.
@@tylerleach8796 it doesn't matter ,Catra "arc" is poorly written anyway
@@ValenArtsAnimation 1: no it isn’t
2: why is “arc” in quotes? Doesn’t matter if you like it or not, it’s still an arc.
This is... just fanfiction. She’s just talking about fanfiction, that’s all she wants to see. And not even the fun kind of fanfiction given the amount of sex shaming she spouts.
I’m pretty sure her media consumption consists solely of fanfiction and children’s cartoons
@@LongSinceDead1 And her takes on said kids cartoons aren’t even good 😂
@@LongSinceDead1 Hence why her writing seems bland and boring.
@@morningglory.2 Well, that's a subjective opinion. An opinion I happen to agree with, but the point still stands.
@@antonyduhamel1166 Certainly. What else would it be? Popular culture criticism isn't a playing field for objective truths, since there's no exact science to it.
About number 19, as an autistic person who has ethical challenges (I'm constantly trying to define rules for something so subjective and case-by-case) and loves maths and physics, people like that DO exist.
Edit: Also, some of my characters that I've made are based on stereotypes and are meant to progress far beyond that. I have a cat-themed jewel thief stereotype who's not into dudes and retired to raise children. I have a heroic "chosen one" who had a group of pals, and he became increasingly paranoid, was manipulative, and killed a child just so he could have another chance at life. I have a self-insert, except he's one of the weaker characters, and he's also given his power, not earning it or being chosen. Plus he's distinct enough from me through character development and also serves as a metaphor for authors interacting with their own works.
Exactly what I was thinking. You can have stereotypes in your stories, as long as the characters are more than said stereotypes
Damn I wanna read some of these
i think part of me understands the frustration of heroes not killing truly evil villains, but i think it makes sense because no matter how terrible a person may be, it comes down to whether the hero can stomach taking someone's life. we can all imagine that we'll be fine because most of us will never be in this situation, but it's a very traumatizing thing to do and experience. so it makes perfect sense to me why heros would rather not resort to murder.
There is kindness to be found in a hero who despite being in the presence of evil, they choose to not take their life because they choose to not subject themself to that trauma and they choose not to subject the people around them to it either, including the villain. i think it's been implied in a lot of heros, but i would love for that point to be more explicit, that they choose not to kill because it would have such a ripple affect that it is not worth taking the life of another person.
It's a pretty explicit plot point in FMA:B
She isn't giving writing advice, she's just complaining about certain cartoons she doesn't like. Also, her point about redemption arcs in relation to zuko was really just stupid. Zuko didn't need to be redeemed because he was a victim of abuse, he needed to be redeemed because he did things like terrorize a water tribe village, hunt down team avatar for two and a half seasons constantly putting their lives in danger, hiring an assassin to kill the avatar,
well, "redemption" implies they were bad at some point
but she likes zuko, so zuko couldn't have been bad
so instead he's just overcoming what someone else did to him
To be fair, he did these things in an attempt to ingraciate himself to his father because he had been shunned, so TECHNICALLY everything he did was the result of someone else being an abuser. Doesn't detract from the point that he was responsible for wide spread destruction and death (probably) and that he is the one that chose these methods, but still, a MODICUM of a point. Oh also Lily is a heterophobe and a massive fucking idiot.
Zuko needed redemption (or other consequences) because of his actions and his choices. While other people contributed to his motivation for making those choices and actions, it was still his choice in that moment.
Zuko *sought* redemption as part of healing from what had been done *to him.* His actions and choices were never what *he* wanted, so he decided he didn't want to be the person who made those choices any more, and that's the foundation for his redemption, vs Azula's comeuppance.
@@absoluteunit8334 The whole point is that he starts the series seeking redemption for a perceived wrong; i.e dishonoring himself and disappointing his father, rather than an actual wrong. Yet in his quest to make up for something which he never should have been guilty about in the first place, he ended up genuinely doing bad things which he did need to answer for. The cycle of abuse makes him do evil things like his father did, but by the end he atones for the crimes which were his, rather than the innocuous act which he was told was a crime.
@@jacobeddie7274 Well somebody responded to the wrong Email.
The nonbinary shapeshifter rule ticks me off so much because being a shapeshifter is also a great power fantasy if you feel incongruent with any binary option you're offered...
You're totally right. My chosen name is Phoenix specifically *because* it's a symbol of change and becoming something greater; I think that's a mentality a lot of nonbinary people can relate with.
Right? I made my fursona a shapeshifter so I can just. Have gender envy at them hahaha.
@@PhoenixRising87 where did you get your profile pic made?
@@PhoenixRising87 Beyond the meaning you put behind your name, Phoenix is a super badass name too.
I have a dungeons and dragons character who is kinda non binary/genderfluid (he/she/they depending on how they feel, though he primarily uses he/him) and generally gender doesn't matter in the society he has found himself living in so he doesn't implicitly identify as such. He uses the spell "alter self" to transform himself into whatever he wants to present as at the time (though obviously he only transforms sparingly due to spell slots being a limitation, hence why he presents as masculine most of the time). We have a few non binary trans characters who use shapeshifting to live more comfortably. Exploring how the lives of trans people have been effected by living in a fantasy world with magic and abilities that can help them feel like their body is more aligned with their mind. It's also interesting to look at how magic and fantasy elements effects a societies *view* on gender, since perhaps some societies would view gender as more fluid and broad due to the existance of body altering creatures/magic
Tip 8 reminds me of the undertale rules in which you can spare just 1 enemy and get the normal ending 😂
1:11:30 I have a big old problem with this one. 1 her “tip” implies that only woman can be rape victims (wtf?) and 2 it entirely depends on execution… one of my favorite series berserk, the main villain Griffith was raped as a child and the main hero Guts was also raped as a child. It has a big effect on who they both are as people and effects the story in a very sad and very compelling way. You don’t have to write everyone as a hero, that’s not the point of a story, they can be human, they can have nuance, it’s not banned to write complex characters with compelling and tragic backstories, Griffith is not a villain because he was raped, Griffith is a villain because he is a vile and selfish person, guts is not the hero because he was raped he is the hero because he is a complex man with study morals and can preserve through anything. She has horrible tips
but griffith wasn't raped...? Yes, he did sex with wealthy old creep, and it was out of need, but it was by griffith choise, and it's shows that he is willing to go into dark immoral things and do sacrifices for his goal. But yeah, he would definetly be raped by that same old creep, it they lost battle with his army...
the fact that lily will ban, block, and silence ANYONE who even mentions Steven Universe because she's "so tired of talking about Steven Universe" BUT SHE TALKS ABOUT IT ALL THE TIIIIME UGH
It's the only thing people know her for at this point (beyond the obvious of the pedo rape fanfiction she wrote). This is why you shouldn't make your online career exclusively shitting on children's media.
@@HellfireComms I'd like a Glass of Water, please.
@@HellfireComms Beyond thE WHAT????
@@monochromegreyson She wrote an MLP fanfiction back in the day that involved minor/adult pairings. It was called Stockholm. I never sought it out myself, but I think it was mostly centered around Rainbow Dash and Scootaloo?
@@tamayako2000 Yep. You're correct. I never read it either due to the subject manner but I have heard about it from word of mouth. Basically, Rainbow Dash adopts Scootloo and rapes her. At one point Lily tried defending it because she made a sequel where Rainbow Dash dies but from what I've heard, the stories kinda paints Dash in a sympathetic light and the sex scenes themselves are painted in a way that's intended to arouse as opposed to something the audience/reader is supposed to be condemning.
Whenever people ask "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?" I want to counter with "Why doesn't the State kill the Joker?"
Also why doesn’t the state stop Batman? Why doesn’t Batman use his money to fix systemic injustice in Gotham? Bc it was made in 1938 by men who like seeing other men dress up as Bats and punch people. It’s a goddamn comic book. Fixing the real issues of society is important but it’s not fun to read.
@@jeniferjoseph9200 To answer the first question because he's fighting supervillains and can, for the most part, stop them. It'll be a waste of time unless he starts killing and even then he's helped save the world the State will let him rock. For the second question he already does as Bruce Wayne. He invests a shit load of time and money to help those that are oppressed. Unfortunately with all the crime families, shadow groups, and supervillains it's not perfect. That's why Batman exists, to cover that area.
@@jeniferjoseph9200 I mean, maybe.
@@jeniferjoseph9200 The state did try to stop batman, briefly, and then batman started working with the police. Gotham PD is corrupt in more ways than one.
"Why doesn't any other superhero kill the Joker?"
Edit: I (sorta) explained my reasoning in below replies but just so I don't get any more notifications about this: I know Gotham is Batman's turf. I know things differ in DC elsewords, AUs, and main continuity. I know Batman has been shown to stop people from killing Joker. I know DC will not kill off Joker because $$$. However, my point is logically speaking, Batman is not solely responsible or to blame for keeping the Joker alive. In universe, without plot armor, stupid executive tampering, or fanservice, Joker could very well be killed/permanently captured by other vigilantes, law enforcement, or the state; Batman really doesn't *need* to kill Joker. Other characters or forces, however could kill him so there shouldn't be so much pressure on Bruce to pull the trigger.
The questions and arguments about Batman's no-kill philosophy only really has merit if mainstream superhero comic books functioned like finite or evolving stories. Villians are always going to escape from Arkham, they are always going to relapse to villainy if previously reformed (unless they are like HQ and have the popularity to back them up), and they are always going to become more and more dangerous to boost the stakes of the stories they're in.
In other words, Batman's philosophy is sound and understandable but the way mainstream comics are written and structured turns his "no-kill" code into a complete joke since he indirectly causes more harm than good. His villains will always be an immediate threat and they will always grow more threatening to keep good sales and fans' expectations.
So, I basically came here because I saw another video responding to this thread and I just felt the need to marinate in it a little longer. I’m currently on #8 in this video and already “The tone of Steven Universe doesn’t accommodate the actions of the Diamonds” is a more cogent criticism of Steven Universe than anything Lily Orchard has said.
I don’t even think I AGREE with it but it’s something that can at least bear an argument.
Yeah even if it's something I massively disagree with at least it makes sense, and I know the reasons I disagree with it are because I have a different way of approaching media not like, factual superiority
This reads less like writing advice and more like a manifesto against steven universe and she-ra
*And Legend of Korra.
Lily Orchard: Cancel culture isn't real.
Also Lily Orchard: Obey the rules if you don't want to get cancelled.
Cognitive dissonance.
tbh the whole "cancel culture isn't real thing" is halfway true, because when people get "cancelled" they always come back and will always have supporters. but, cancel culture does have harmful lasting effects. it treats everyone as if they're irredeemable, even if they made the smallest mistake, which is very stressful for the "cancelled" person to deal with. also, it's very easy to latch onto and become apart of cancel culture without even realizing it. it happened to me, and I didn't realize how harsh and toxic I was until after the fact. in conclusion, although most people never actually become "cancelled," cancel culture is still very harmful and holds people to completely unrealistic expectations
Also also Lily Orchard: "Progressives are forgiving."
Bitch please, I still hold grudges for things that happened in high school. No tf we aren't.
@@jabby6709 it's not halfway true when you admit there are people online who will contact your family and employment because you said or did something that violates no actual law, but does violate their own esoteric sensibilities. That IS cancel culture. Just because they can't successfully cancel 100% of their targets doesn't mean they don't exist. It's like saying, "The wind doesn't exist. It doesn't knock down most of the trees it tries to knock down." Then ignoring all the trees getting whipped around by the wind, losing branches and going everywhere.
@@jabby6709 cancel culture - what sjws used to gnash their teeth and call 'harassment mobs' aroundabout 2014, and still sometimes complain about when the Outgroup engages in the behavior - isn't much of a threat to powerful celebrities. that's true. but it does often hurt lowly nobodies.
the only effect of getting "cancelled" seems to be an increase in bigotry
you can use your victim status as a white boy to win the oppression olympics
and then you can say all the shit you would have said anyway
like look at dankula
To summarize: Lily watches shows that are inherently not targeted to her interests, and when they don't cater to her niche tastes that is a failing of the writers and not her own ability to pick what she watches.
There is literally so, so much media that is exactly what she would want if she would just go out and find it instead of trying to force shows with a unique vision to be what they aren't.
The fact is, she thinks her weird little preferences for stuff make her more sophisticated and intelligent than other people rather than what it really is, a preference. That's where it gets problematic.
@@Normaschthewanderer it's so frustrating because the media she wants is just out there, it's not hard to find
@@Ezekiel_Allium that's not enough for her. She wants all media to be like that. Any accounting for different tastes is simply people liking inferior entertainment in her mind.
@@Normaschthewanderer I am curious if she even knows it exists, she might be so caught up in her preconceived notions of various mediums she doesnt even know exactly what she wants is out there
Tweet at her to tell her to watch those shows lol
5 - it is very important for lessons in children’s media to not tell kids that you should kill people you perceive as evil
I didsagreee with you guys that someone needs to be a part of a demographic group to make points about how a character of that demographic is written. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a white person calling out black stereotypes in writing or a man calling out weird misogynistic sexualization/objectification. I think it really depends on the critique, and the person's familiarity with the community etc etc. It's really contextual, but I don't like barring people from speaking on something in that way. My problem with Lily orchard isn't that she's speaking for other groups, it's that she's reductive and speaks in black and white terms.
I hate to be that guy, but like, it’s kinda funny, Lily, a woman who’s never written on a professional level, or is involved in the industry, wrote this list, which is essentially nothing but shade at professional writers, poorly disguised as writing advice.
They are all just "the show i didn't like did this so you can't do it"
He isn't a woman. He's an autogynephile.
@@SirBlackReeds what
@@shhhh517 A "man with sexual attraction to himself as a woman", I guess.
@@ultimamage3 no it's a person who's born with gender dysphoria who thinks they are in the wrong gender. Why are you so transphobic
Little does Lily Orchard know that the term "Mary Sue" was coined by a woman.
Mary Sue, created by Paula Smith in 1973, was a satire character published in the Star Trek fanzine Menagerie. It was meant to parody the Star Trek self-inserts who were perfect, had the main characters fall in love with them immediately, stuff like that. I looked this up a few days ago out of curiosity and didn't realize the knowledge would come in handy so soon.
Point is, calling a character a Mary Sue is not always rooted in misogyny, and never has been. Yes, misogynists often use the term to describe any strong female character, which is annoying, but they're using it incorrectly. The term itself is not misogynistic. There is also a male equivalent, "Gary Stu" (but imo, "Mary Sue" could still be used for non-female characters; it's more an archetype thing than a gender thing).
TL,DR: Calling a character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu CAN be a valid criticism if given for good reason.
"Little does Lily Orchard know that the term "Mary Sue" was coined by a woman." My mind was blown.
That being said, women can be misogynists too. So the gender of the person who came up with that term is not inherently of consequence.
I'm completely with you on the understanding of what "Mary Sue" actually refers to (or used to refer to).
We keep losing specific words and phrases with very specific meaning all the time to generalization or oversimplification or just because some person in the limelight used them wrong and people began aping that use. It's a depressing degradation of language and thus thought. For if you do not have the words to express complex thought (even to yourself), your complex thought will remain stunted.
Sorry for going off on that tangent. It just depresses the hell out of me to watch this happen.
@@Brandiwell "We keep losing specific words and phrases with very specific meaning all the time to generalization or oversimplification or just because some person in the limelight used them wrong and people began aping that use."
... reminding me of the misunderstanding of "irony" kinda, here.
@@kereminde Yup. That'd be one of them.
I knew the term originated from Star Trek, but I didn't know the writer was a woman. Very interesting
I love the archery rule because they have several rules about how stories don’t need to be realistic but yet want bows to be hyper realistic for some reason
"Characters should always come first" really depends on the work. For example, Uncharted is entirely about its set pieces.
Zuko literally burned down Kyoshi village, he wasn't a good guy in the beginning.
So yeah, it was a redemption arc.
And yet I could make the argument that he was a "good person" by the begining, shown from his interactions with his friends, the very reason he was banished, etc etc.
Whicb just proves "good" and "evil" are highly subjective concepts that should not limit your story to one way of being alone like this absolute dense, latte-sipping cretin Lilly Orchard wants you to.
@@Nai-qk4vp oh of course! But him being an arguably good person, doesn’t change that he did, in fact, have a redemption arc. Having good morals, and being a “good person”, doesn’t erase the fact that he kinda committed war crimes lol
The good within him that we saw, even from the beginning, was the only reason he was able to redeem himself.
Redemption happens when the good within someone defeats the bad, and they make the choice to right all of the wrongs they committed.
@@Nai-qk4vp Just view the redemption arc as him coming from the antagonist side to the protagonist side. Can also view it as finally taking a stance that the world around him (the fire nation) is wrong. At first he did see that something was wrong, that's why he got the scar. But he wanted to redeem himself in the eyes of his father because he still does not fully acknowledge that fire nation = baddies.
I'd say the completion of his redemption arc was his meeting with his father, this time not to regain his honor as the son of the Fire Lord but as an actual enemy of the fire lord. It's not just bad -> good. Can be recognizing that the side you're on is bad without being bad yourself then going to the good side.
@@N0noy1989 Yes , yes. I know.
But one more thing. Redemption arcs don't have to be "villain to hero" or "antagonist to protagonist".
Aang also goes through a redemption arc, one paralel in many ways to Zuko's.
@@DeanDraxon8752 *ahem* **nasally:** the correct term would be "atrocities," as there's no Geneva convention to deem it a war crime in the Avatar universe **nerd wheeze**
I didn't ask to be born, I have to live with it.
My characters didn't ask to be written, they have to live with it... now if you'll excuse me, I have an over-the-top violent torture scene to write, followed by an unnecessary sex scene where enemies become lovers but continue to try to kill each other anyway, after one of them murdered an entire populus of 10,001 people and still gets redeemed anyway; just for you Lily.
Hey, some of the best stories were written out of spite you know!
I’d read it
@@c10ud_ten22 spite is part of the reason I started writing.
@@c10ud_ten22 Codex Alera was 6 book fantasy epic written to win a bet.
@@JukaDominator
>followed by an unnecessary sex scene where enemies become lovers but continue to try to kill each other anyway
i don't recall this ever being in index lol
The autism point is rich from the person who tried to defend Sheldon as a character
Is she even autistic so what stance does she have if she isn’t?
As an autistic person there are some things I like about sheldon, but that's fucking hilarious considering I assumed that must be what she was referring to
I had a sinking feeling at seeing "LGBTA" twice in a row so it really wasn't surprised to see her go full mask off with telling queer people what words they can use to describe themselves. I don't know this woman (I'm gathering that she's trans based on the clear "do NOT misgender her" statement which doesn't really excuse it) but like... sorry not sorry, as a queer person, I'm going to write stories with queer characters who call themselves queer and that does a lot more for the queer community than perpetuating leftist infighting ever will.
Yeah I think what people who hate being called queer don't realise is that if we call it "the queer community" then it's not including them necessarily if they don't identify as queer. Like on some levels they're interchangeable, but also queer community and lgbt+ community have some different ideas, I think
@@nerdychocobo exactly. The word queer makes a lot of sense to me to describe me, my partner, and our relationship.
Lily getting angry at Aang choosing not to kill Ozai means she has missed the underlying, secondary conflict of the show. The secondary conflict of the show is Aang struggling to come to terms with the fact that he is the Avatar. We see time and time again that he is afraid of those responsibilities, afraid of the immense power within him. Afraid of hurting people he cares about because he loses control of himself. This culminates at the end of the story where the Avatar State activates and he is taken over. He wrests back control specifically because he refuses to become an Avatar that abandons his beliefs. "I'm not gonna end it like this." He has come to his arc's conclusion - he found the kind of Avatar he wants to be and he sees it through. Could the Lion Turtle stuff have been set up better? Absolutely! But Aang choosing not to kill Ozai was the only real way for his arc to wrap up. He defeats the main villain, Ozai, at the same time he defeats his secondary "villain," the concept of the Avatar. And we see how his resolve comes into play immediately after, as he willingly taps into the power of the Avatar State to raise the tide (using the first waterbending technique Katara ever taught him, coming full circle) and quell the fires. The last episode is literally called "Avatar Aang," come on...
I think something a lot of people miss, including the vid kinda, is the spiritual relevance of not only Aang not killing the Firelord, but how he does it.
In the philosophies like Daoism that Avatar lifts heavily from, the guiding principle is that the universe will always correct itself to a state of cosmic balance, like Iroh said why he couldn’t be the one to kill Ozai, it’s not just in ending the war, but HOW the war ends that matters.
Azula created the scar on Aangs back that when hit gets him into the Avatar state. It was always going to happen
And even the Lion Turtle is kinda a representation of the physical divine will of the universe making sure that balance is attained, so that Aang beat the Firelord, the man who held strength above all else, with compassion.
I’d even argue that what Aang did to Ozai was worse than death. The great Firelord, strongest fire bender in the world reduced to a shell of a man. Having to live out his life not only in prison but as a nonbender and knowing that his least favorite child sits on the throne.
For a long time, I was mad that Aang didn't kill Ozai. I felt like it allowed Aang to weasle out of making sacrifices. Now I realize the issue isn't so much that Aang doesn't kill Ozai (which I now think was actually a great choice), it's the setup. Almost like Bryke suddenly realized they couldn't get away with killing Ozai and had to come up with something near the end rather than having time to set it up over a season or perhaps longer.
Also, it doesn't help that Aang did a few things that most definitely caused some deaths (like the avelanche or being possessed by the Ocean Spirit), but we never see him struggle with that and it's treated with a "if you don't see a corpse, you can't prove it" logic. Still, I learned that there's a difference between "the ending sucks" and "the ending had a clunky setup" and talking to other ATLA fans certainly helped me differentiate.
@@VeWatchesVideos We do kind of see how those moments traumatized him. He has nightmares in book 3 about those scenarios where he lost control. The Ocean Spirit is one of those moments. Fear of his power is a pretty significant theme that he has to struggle with - the entire reason he goes along with Guru Pathik is because he wants to be able to control that power. There's a lot of subtext showing that Aang DOES feel tormented by the actions he took while out of control. He just doesn't constantly mention it directly.
I 100% think that if the lion turtle had been set up in book 2, it could have been a masterful ending.
I definitely agree with this. Aang’s beliefs as not only a monk but the last monk made following its practices far more important than if he was just some kid in a big civilization. If Aang lets go of his pacifism then he essentially betrays the last thing left of his people. Him choosing not to kill Ozai wasn’t a “cop out”. It was actually the direction the made the most sense.
Did Lily orchard ever consider that LGBT authors may use "othering" tropes intentionally as a way of drawing parallels between fictional discrimination and real life homophobia.
Nope.
That was the whole point of Lindsay Ellis video on Monster Boyfriends and hbomberguy video on Lovecraft! They are pretty famous, can't believe she ignored it
“did lily orchard ever consider-“ no. she never considers
@@DavidWilliams-xk4eb Not even for herself?
@ChiefMedicPururu
Hello.
My ex wife used to have literally every one of these opinions, and she made me feel like a hollow shell of sexual repression. If I ever wanted anything other than vanilla missionary she called me a freak, and would often shame people, then turn around and say "slay it queen" if it made her look good. I can honestly say that it was miserable.
Damn :(
ew💀
thats rough buddy.
Oof, that sucks. Good to know that she is your ex now.