This happened Friday so we'll see what happens, the last guy was there 8 days prior. It's not happening right away, It sometimes takes several days to a week.
First of all. I was one of those screaming about the channel locks. Now I want a pair. Had a similar issue with oil loss before. Put a new valve plate and problem went away. Good diagnostics on your part.
Well thanks for coming forward you dirty dog 🤣🤣. I learned about these from Steven Rairdon's channel and I'm like what the heck's the big deal with these stupid things. Then I bought one pair now I have three pairs.
You'd be surprised how often I use my Knipexes as a portable vice, lovely perfectly parallel squeeze with nice flat surfaces and total control by hand.
FYI, United Ref. Makes a brass tee with a dip tube that threads into the body of the crank just above the sight glass, one hose pressurizes the crank to 20psi of nitro, back seat the tee and the other hose will relieve the 20 psi of nitro as well as oil and it will drain the crank every time. Check it out next time your in United
You can also hook up a hose to the oil pump T and drain the oil down to the pick-up screen. This will drain the oil and you can verify if your oil safety is working properly when the comp runs out of oil.
We had a problem with the same symptoms on an alternate Copeland of a walking-freezer. The other guy put in a higher viscosity oil (ISO 46 instead of 32) when retrofitting from 22 to 404. The oil slowly ended up in the evaporator over a summer (the linesets were really long too). We resolved by purging the evaporator in defrost, replacing the oil with the appropriate viscosity and adding an oil separator.
I had one recently that was having oil issues, pumping the oil out of the compressor. Added some oil and ended up replacing the faulty crank case heater that was allowing refrigerant to saturate the oil (non pumpdown system) and getting the unloader working properly to reduce the short cycling. Went back a little while later to look at something else and checked on it, now the compressor was overfull, took out some oil. All seems well. With your system I wouldn’t doubt that theres some short cycle issues that aren’t making themselves apparent, or some occasional flood back washing the oil out of the compressor. All are problems that take a lot of time to diagnose and sometimes takes you being on site for a while to catch it when it happens.
Just found your channel and as another refrigeration tech to another love your videos! I do supermarket refrigeration and a little tip I recently learned for cleaning Copeland sump screens-pull a vacuum on the compressor, pull the screen and put cap back on. Vacuum will keep oil from flowing out of compressor. And super fun to watch too!
If you go back, you could perform an efficiency test to check the plates and rings. Bad reeds and/or rings will always cause oil issues. At least on racks it will. Great video as always Rick. I think I may start posting some from the supermarket side.
Yeah definitely do so, as you noticed I'm getting into supermarkets and more industrial stuff so every bit helps and there's only a few people that post that kind of thing. Don't be surprised if you don't get many views because not many people work on that stuff but it doesn't mean people aren't interested in it.
@@HVACRSurvival yea I really enjoyed the one about the 3 way valve. I’m also posting my truck build. But you’re 100% right about not getting any views on that. Maybe my truck build will offset the views lol!!
You've got to do good thumbnails, you've got to do catchy wordings, shorter is better sometimes, there's a lot of tricks to it. Plus it just comes down to the overall appeal. Sometimes you just get lucky. Even with 25,000 subscribers I'm still not getting 25,000 views so don't get to worry about it. That's why I'm trying to do two videos a weekend and it is a pain in the ass. I wasted all day yesterday and I'll probably waste most of the day today then I'll go back to work on Monday and do this crap again which kind of sucks.
@@HVACRSurvival hey do hashtags work very well? I’m going to have a truck build on here as well. And then maybe just me talking. Just a way to express myself really. Right now I’m doing all from my phone. My GoPro is in the van which is in the shop.
@@Mechanics.Life80 your phone does great, I just got a go pro 11 and that's why my colors are all off. I learning color correction lol. The nice thing about the go pro is the better camera placement. Hash tags can help. Your best to start watching TH-cam videos on how to get more viewers but the key thing they say is consistent uploads and good content.
Great work. It must be exhausting having to explain every detail of your work in order to avoid the procedure police. By the way...Knipex pliers are phenomenal. Try em out, most will agree.
Awesome work. I’m liking the refrigeration calls. Had a stalling compressor tripping oil failure once . Oil switch senses voltage and doesn’t sense net oil and trips.
I didn't take the new one apart, I didn't think that had an o- ring, I've only replaced one of those and had to clean one other so I'm not positive. I thought that was a metal washer style seal of some sort. I know the guy prior to me he's pretty good. We're all very careful about finding the problem the first time because if it's something we should have caught we don't get paid to go back. Call backs are a no no.
On the end of the transducer there is a little o ring. Out of the box they are not installed. But it would trip right away if not on. If the previous tech used the old gasket of the replaced one, then maybe it is cracked
Get yourself some latex gloves. Nitrile gloves are great, but you've almost certainly noticed certain solvents go right through them. So, when you're going to be playing with acetone, brake cleaner, carb cleaner - pull a set of latex gloves over the nitrile gloves. They withstand those solvents better. They're also biodegradable, so you don't have to worry so much about throwing them away. Makes the nitrile gloves last longer as well.
I'd say it's unlikely, but perhaps there's junk restricting the compressor suction inlet screen. May help explain why there was a bit of oil at the suction service valve process port. Good stuff, man.
You can add a 1/4”” service port by removing the plug that’s above and left of the oil sight glass Once you’ve done that connect there and to the oil pump Close the suction valve and watch that crank pressure while pumping it down The pressures will drop normally but if the crank pressure shoots back up while pumping it down you have blow by replace the compressor I would’ve also pulled the valve plates and inspected the cylinder walls for damage the edges of the piston for damage You can also run it without fans and get oil back from the system I suspect massive flood back after defrost could also be your issue or Long line set with bad insulation can cause suction gas to condense and cause slugging on start up a rush of liquid can temporarily plug the oil ports and trip the sentronic
I thought the same thing about checking for failed valve plate, but you would see it in your suction pressure if it wasn't holding; especially on a single.
Wouldn't the crankcase pressure be the same as my discharge on my oil pump while it's not running? It seemed to read exactly what I had on the suction side when I was checking it when it was off. And then when I pulled a vacuum it pulled through the pump then also. I know I've been told to check my discharge temperatures on my head and my crankcase temperature is while it's running. I was kind of in a hurry that day I got thrown another call and we had a Christmas party at 12:00. All bad scenarios
I have the 71/2”, the 12” and the bigger set 18” I think of those Knipex wrenches and I use them to death on hydraulic lines etc., they are by far the handiest tools I’ve bought in a long time.
When talking to techs about oil issues I told them to do an initial easy check that is to reverse the rotation of the compressor. This would allow you to check two things first if the oil level changes when you reverse the compressor rotation then the crankshaft was either pushing oil up against the glass or away from it that’s why I always tell them to check oil levels when the compressor was off. Secondly if you see an oil pump pressure increase on the reversal then the lobes in the oil pump are worn and it’s time to replace the oil pump Copeland oil pumps will work in either direction unlike other manufacturers
That’s kind of interesting, I’ve never tried checking the oil, pressure and One Direction versus the other but I will have to consider trying that one time. I will mention that after cleaning the screens and oil pressure switch. I never had to go back out after that.
It's also possible that the oil return orifice in the suction accumulator might be plugged. Might also explain the oil at the suction service valve, after resetting the trip the refrigerant in the trapped oil quickly boils off and some oil often surges back to the compressor. Should be easy to find because the accumulator looks like a bucket filled with cold water when you look at it with a thermal camera. Same thing for an oil logged evaporator, you see some big temperature differences on the evaporator
In the past on multi compressor split suction racks, the low temp side suction pressure was lower than the med temp side. I found 1 low temp compressor had oil problems, there's a suction screen Inside the rear of compressor that caught A TON of copper shavings. Probably not the same problem your having, take it with a grain of salt
This oil problem just started happening, I have people I could have asked, I'm reluctant because I feel like I'm interrogated every time I do. Hence why I share what I do know better on TH-cam because I'm sure other people deal with this too.
If the oil isn’t leaking out and over time more oil keeps getting added the volume of what I call circulated oil is to high and will be at every fitting in the system. Doesn’t explain why the oil keeps leaving the compressor but obviously it does. I bet the oil is in the evaporator. Crap on oil filter suggest crap clogging oil return in accumulator. Would still replace oil control before accumulator when it trips again. Never saw that screen filter before. Always learn from you.
good thing to keep in the van them oil absorbent pads or just good oil dippers I carry a few I got off of my sister-in-law when here daughter out grew them i used to have a pack of adult ones i got from my great gramother-in-law when she passed they work don't know what's cheaper the dippers or the actual pads
THE txv's are open too much and blowing the oil out of compressor,after defrost,oil is through out the system,no oil separator.had that before,hope that helps,thanks for sharing.
i had issues at a warehouse freezer i installed a time delay on the liquid solenoid that way it could pump down again after defrost so when the txv is warm after defrost it will pump down again before restarting because the txv is wide open. it cured my problems worked 35 years at hussmann
I don't know why, but I am not crazy about that suction line being that cold and frosting. I think I would also suspect the TEV and superheat. I know we need some liquid coming back to carry the oil. I might also recommend an oil recovery unit like a hot gas oil separator to get the oil out and return it directly to the compressor. I never add oil unit till I find out where it went. One response said, you may have an oil log evep. And may be an accumulator.
For those reading this, I have 40+ years in HVAC/R and taught for 5 years. I am old school meaning R-12 and R-22. I am sure the principles are still the same. Oil should never be added unless it is a new system and need to balance the large system loss or you have a oil leak somewhere. Hard to diagnose without "Laying of Hands" on the system.
I'm not too worried about the temperature coming back as a matter of fact Copeland recommends 30° of superheat. We were well above that, meaning we don't have liquid coming back theoretically. Now when it comes out of defrost and stuff like that some people are worried about that point of the startup, but you got to remember this does pump down so the refrigerant is stacked back at the condenser and the evaporator should be completely empty of refrigerant. Like I mentioned in the video I have a feeling that the accumulator has a plugged weep hole or it's slightly restricted. If that thing gets plugged it will not return oil to the compressor.
I have a hard time spending extra on solid raw metal tools like a socket. 👍👍 The only thing snap on has on most sockets is they snapped it off in your wallet. 😁 They were good tools...
Weird segue from inflation to “people who are ant free money” … I’m afraid I don’t follow the logic, but good video besides. I really like that self adjusting wrench/ pliers thing you have, looks handy.
I said “there is NO FREE MONEY” My point was the price of products went up because of the free money given away from the plan-demic causing inflation. Most people don’t understand basic economics and believe the government makes money, they don’t make anything or give anything that they haven’t TAKEN from someone else.
@@HVACRSurvival fair enough,it’s your channel. I like your hvac info, it’s educational and entertaining. I really want one of those wrenches. I’m starting hvac training this spring, seems like they’d be handy to have.
I haven't ever seen an oil separator on a simple unit like this, only on grocery racks. Something else might be wrong but this just started after at least 10 plus years. There are 6 other systems at this location just like this that are working. Either I got it fixed or it's one of the things I mentioned while looking at my phone in the truck. Time will tell
@@HVACRSurvival in Europe rule of thumb if it is a freezer needs oil separator the suction pressure is too low to move the oil back to the compressor 1,5 bar or 21,70 psi it starts to have oil return problems. Tip change the working temperature of the freezer to a higher temperature : example from -1⁰F or -18⁰C to around 38⁰F or 3⁰C for one hour an change the txv superheat to full open this is forcing the system to run on higher pressure and forces more liquid refrigerant to flush the evaporator from the oil be careful and don't over doing it one to two hour is enough to return the 95% of the oil.
Pickup screen not checked by previous techs. Pain to get to that one. Your sentronic sensor can give you clues what your pickup screen looks like. Start up will have some liquid flood. 4d comp. Should have 45 lbs net oil. Evap coil could likely be very dirty being medium temp. Then history could show temp issues and previous guys opening up txvs. Goes forever doesnt it?
I've had to replace the oil pump on a Copeland 3D comp before. The crank on the compressor somehow sheared off the paddle for the pump??? It did it twice and ended up replacing the comp after the second time. Replacement oil pump lasted a good 6 months before it broke apart.
It’s a rule of thumb but it depends on the application you’re working on. 10-15 * below your desired box temp, or 15-30* above ambient. There’s not enough room in the comments section to cover it in great detail but that’s what rule of thumb is. Pick up this book. It’s really strait to the point and covers this and a lot more. amzn.to/3YO10MJ
Accumulator and rust on floor of condensing unit rusted showing that unit used to alot of flood back. Also thought unit needs body cooling fan being low temp. Do capicity check on compressor. Does it hold a pump down? Evap coil located next to door in warehouse? Door being left open? Strip curtains cut and missing? Coil frosted over? Got a feeling its something more. I think youve been back...
This is a drive-in warehouse for food storage. Honestly, I don’t believe anybody else has gone back either and this was done I think last year. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen an outside cooling fan on one of these models. Usually only on the rack or a bigger unit side of the building. Not saying it wouldn’t hurt
Good idea if you plan on isolating the compressor to clean the sump screen, check the strainer in the sentronic as well. Then when you go to open your compressor valves back up have your guages on, open discharge first and see if your suction rises. You’ll be checking for blow by. Kill 3 birds with one stone.
Thank you ! all of those things are really good ideas. I didn't check the screen on the new sensor because it was new, and honestly I forgot about the screen at the back of the compressor. And I kind of forgot to do the valve check, my judgment was clouded because somebody else was there prior to me and I think they said they did the valve check. This is why I was upset but I didn't say anything about it in the video because they sometimes watch them too.
Could be the contactor single phasing the compressor or put a head cooler fan on the compressor and watch the oil level come up unless the rings are shot and it's a oil pumper.
It was possible, Granite, I check voltage drop across the legs. This video is from several months ago and I don't believe I had to go back for anything.
Once someone buys their first set of Knipex pliers, they don't often go back to anything else. Sure they are higher priced, but a mentor of mine once told me "Tools don't cost money, they make money".
Next time hook a hose up to the oil pump and let the compressor pump the oil into a bucket. Once you stop seeing oil come out of the hose, turn off the compressor. Obviously you'll have to add all that oil back. Also, there is typically a pick up tube that that screen sits in. There's a channel that has to face down or you'll have bad oil flow. I've also seen compressors that continuously pump the oil out, probably due to weak/ failed piston rings. Just gotta replace those compressors. Another thought is if that compressor is overheating, tripping that protection module, it'll trip the oil. Oil is definitely a beast of its own.
Those are such great ideas! Thanks! Pumping it into a bucket is so simple but I didn't think it it🤦🏻. I'm not sure I've seen a particular way for the oil screen to fit?
@@HVACRSurvival the first time one of the old timers showed me that I thought the same thing. That oil pick up screen sits inside a metal pick up tube. If you put your pinky inside that hole you'll feel it. You kinda have to hook it with your pinky and wiggle it past the threads. Or a pick works too. The opening on that metal tube has to face down. There are some pick up screens that don't have a pick up tube, but they're bigger and have a circle pattern on them. You don't see those ones very often. If you Google "Copeland screen oil kit" the URI website will have a picture of it.
im gonna spitball here since ive had a ton of issues with copelands in the past...I think you have weak rings and maybe a broken reed. might be a good idea to pull it down and do a rebuild.
Most of us in the trades feel the same way "there's no free money" and disgusted with able body people who won't work for a living. Somebody always has to pay that bill!
Lots of wear metal on that screen so it's running oil starved or flooding back and washing the oil out of the cylinders. 33º superheat is high so maybe a metering device issue? All that oil in the suction tells me the return velocity is low, there's not enough load to blow the oil back. Sure the evaporator is getting good airflow and the TXV is opening up enough?
Copeland requires 30° of superheat minimum at the compressor. The inside box temperature is negative 5 to negative 10. Suction did seem a little low. Obviously I didn't check superheat at the TXV, these evaporators are 20 ft in the air and they have all kinds of crap in the way to get to them. We hadn't had any problems with this prior till just recently and this has been in for quite a while.
Has a contactor been changed? On some semi hermetics the pump doesn't work but in one direction. The larger ones I think aren't, but some of the smaller ones are actually rotation dependent
Yep, I might have cut it out but I originally mentioned I replaced it last year. The direction would be interesting to know. I know the compressor doesn't usually care when it's a reciprocating but I can't say for sure on the oil pump.
Cheaper and easier for them to install it there. It also is a lot easier to change it, usually it gets frozen up with the TXV. Whatever reason they like to put it there at my company. But if it's a long liquid run we don't do that.
Send Trevor Mathews a message and ask him. Thats an interesting conundrum you find yourself in. Im not into replacing parts willy nilly myself and any good tech like yourself wont always have all the answers to every situation
@@jasonjohnsonHVAC the video I told him about was the one where I split the head open on a call I was running after hours at a gas station. The thumbnail is of my van shining the headlights onto the condenser unit. He's busy and that's understandable. We haven't been back to that one yet 🤣, it needed to be replaced. 🤷
was there power outages there before the problem/s occurred? maybe something in combination of a long power outage and oil pump out due to flood back on restart with warm box? sometimes it's hard to get the whole story from anyone and you have to think clear outside the whole solar system or become magician and mind reader. 🤣
No power outages, plus there are several set up and piped the same way. I'd be having redundant problems. This is all one big open warehouse. I haven't heard anything about it tripping yet, we will see soon enough.
That wouldn't surprise me with that much crap in the oil, it's probably inside the TXV too. Most people don't worry about superheat like they should around here. They tend to think since it was set once why the hell should you have to mess with it again. Then you get accused of wasting too much time. You can't win
@@HVACRSurvival your more likely to have a txv issue or even an evaporator fan delay issue. 99 percent the oil control is doing its job. I believe you can change the phase on the semi compressor and that will reverse the oil pump rotation as well
It takes time for a transducer to translate that pressure to digital reading and a lot of times they don't want to show you a rapidly moving display so they'll usually use a thing called sampling rate. That means they'll show you an updated reading every so many microseconds to potentially 2 to 5 seconds so that it seems like everything is nice and steady. A good example of this is your digital thermometer. When you grab a hold of it generally it takes quite a while for it to drop or rise in temperature. But if you get a thermistor a lot of times it'll be really fast. Another example is a analog meter versus a digital meter. And analog meter is going to respond instantly because it's directly inputting the signal right to a electromagnet that controls the needle. That's why fluke and several other manufacturers added an analog graph at the bottom of the digital display.
Thanks a lot Rick. I had no idea. Could’ve ran into some issues down the line. This is what I tell guys. There’s always something you pick up on a video. Keep them coming.
Yeah you may not have the exact same problem as us but most governments tend to print more than they have so it makes everything more expensive. I guess either way the dollar goes down in value the price goes up and it still screws you because it's coming from here.
Glad you just didn't fire up the parts cannon and replace all the parts, hopefully you can work out what's wrong with this beast and get it 100%. 👍
This happened Friday so we'll see what happens, the last guy was there 8 days prior. It's not happening right away, It sometimes takes several days to a week.
First of all. I was one of those screaming about the channel locks. Now I want a pair. Had a similar issue with oil loss before. Put a new valve plate and problem went away. Good diagnostics on your part.
Well thanks for coming forward you dirty dog 🤣🤣. I learned about these from Steven Rairdon's channel and I'm like what the heck's the big deal with these stupid things. Then I bought one pair now I have three pairs.
You'd be surprised how often I use my Knipexes as a portable vice, lovely perfectly parallel squeeze with nice flat surfaces and total control by hand.
They are perfect for the 3m crimp connectors. 🍺
FYI, United Ref. Makes a brass tee with a dip tube that threads into the body of the crank just above the sight glass, one hose pressurizes the crank to 20psi of nitro, back seat the tee and the other hose will relieve the 20 psi of nitro as well as oil and it will drain the crank every time. Check it out next time your in United
Thanks for the info!
You can also hook up a hose to the oil pump T and drain the oil down to the pick-up screen. This will drain the oil and you can verify if your oil safety is working properly when the comp runs out of oil.
We had a problem with the same symptoms on an alternate Copeland of a walking-freezer. The other guy put in a higher viscosity oil (ISO 46 instead of 32) when retrofitting from 22 to 404. The oil slowly ended up in the evaporator over a summer (the linesets were really long too). We resolved by purging the evaporator in defrost, replacing the oil with the appropriate viscosity and adding an oil separator.
I had one recently that was having oil issues, pumping the oil out of the compressor. Added some oil and ended up replacing the faulty crank case heater that was allowing refrigerant to saturate the oil (non pumpdown system) and getting the unloader working properly to reduce the short cycling. Went back a little while later to look at something else and checked on it, now the compressor was overfull, took out some oil. All seems well. With your system I wouldn’t doubt that theres some short cycle issues that aren’t making themselves apparent, or some occasional flood back washing the oil out of the compressor. All are problems that take a lot of time to diagnose and sometimes takes you being on site for a while to catch it when it happens.
Just found your channel and as another refrigeration tech to another love your videos! I do supermarket refrigeration and a little tip I recently learned for cleaning Copeland sump screens-pull a vacuum on the compressor, pull the screen and put cap back on. Vacuum will keep oil from flowing out of compressor. And super fun to watch too!
Awesome 👍👍. I do a little rack work, I have a mix of everything under the sun.
If you go back, you could perform an efficiency test to check the plates and rings. Bad reeds and/or rings will always cause oil issues. At least on racks it will. Great video as always Rick. I think I may start posting some from the supermarket side.
Yeah definitely do so, as you noticed I'm getting into supermarkets and more industrial stuff so every bit helps and there's only a few people that post that kind of thing. Don't be surprised if you don't get many views because not many people work on that stuff but it doesn't mean people aren't interested in it.
@@HVACRSurvival yea I really enjoyed the one about the 3 way valve. I’m also posting my truck build. But you’re 100% right about not getting any views on that. Maybe my truck build will offset the views lol!!
You've got to do good thumbnails, you've got to do catchy wordings, shorter is better sometimes, there's a lot of tricks to it. Plus it just comes down to the overall appeal. Sometimes you just get lucky. Even with 25,000 subscribers I'm still not getting 25,000 views so don't get to worry about it. That's why I'm trying to do two videos a weekend and it is a pain in the ass. I wasted all day yesterday and I'll probably waste most of the day today then I'll go back to work on Monday and do this crap again which kind of sucks.
@@HVACRSurvival hey do hashtags work very well? I’m going to have a truck build on here as well. And then maybe just me talking. Just a way to express myself really. Right now I’m doing all from my phone. My GoPro is in the van which is in the shop.
@@Mechanics.Life80 your phone does great, I just got a go pro 11 and that's why my colors are all off. I learning color correction lol. The nice thing about the go pro is the better camera placement. Hash tags can help. Your best to start watching TH-cam videos on how to get more viewers but the key thing they say is consistent uploads and good content.
Great work.
It must be exhausting having to explain every detail of your work in order to avoid the procedure police.
By the way...Knipex pliers are phenomenal. Try em out, most will agree.
I feel like I talked non-stop but that's kinda the reason I make these, to help explain what and why I do what I do. I love Knipex.
Awesome work. I’m liking the refrigeration calls. Had a stalling compressor tripping oil failure once . Oil switch senses voltage and doesn’t sense net oil and trips.
Performing a blow-by test wouldn’t be a bad idea. I’d also check the accumulator with a thermal camera, that’s a good idea.
All good ideas 👍 we'll see if I hear anything back this week, it's pretty cold. If We're going to have problems this will be the week to get it.
Check the “O” ring on the Differential Pressure Sensor. When the O ring is cracked, the sensor trips.
I would have hoped that would have been checked already I thought Rick said the sensor was replaced already
I didn't take the new one apart, I didn't think that had an o- ring, I've only replaced one of those and had to clean one other so I'm not positive. I thought that was a metal washer style seal of some sort. I know the guy prior to me he's pretty good. We're all very careful about finding the problem the first time because if it's something we should have caught we don't get paid to go back. Call backs are a no no.
On the end of the transducer there is a little o ring. Out of the box they are not installed. But it would trip right away if not on. If the previous tech used the old gasket of the replaced one, then maybe it is cracked
Get yourself some latex gloves. Nitrile gloves are great, but you've almost certainly noticed certain solvents go right through them. So, when you're going to be playing with acetone, brake cleaner, carb cleaner - pull a set of latex gloves over the nitrile gloves. They withstand those solvents better. They're also biodegradable, so you don't have to worry so much about throwing them away. Makes the nitrile gloves last longer as well.
I'd say it's unlikely, but perhaps there's junk restricting the compressor suction inlet screen. May help explain why there was a bit of oil at the suction service valve process port. Good stuff, man.
🤜🤛👍👍🤝
You can add a 1/4”” service port by removing the plug that’s above and left of the oil sight glass
Once you’ve done that connect there and to the oil pump
Close the suction valve and watch that crank pressure while pumping it down
The pressures will drop normally but if the crank pressure shoots back up while pumping it down you have blow by replace the compressor
I would’ve also pulled the valve plates and inspected the cylinder walls for damage the edges of the piston for damage
You can also run it without fans and get oil back from the system
I suspect massive flood back after defrost could also be your issue or
Long line set with bad insulation can cause suction gas to condense and cause slugging on start up a rush of liquid can temporarily plug the oil ports and trip the sentronic
I thought the same thing about checking for failed valve plate, but you would see it in your suction pressure if it wasn't holding; especially on a single.
Wouldn't the crankcase pressure be the same as my discharge on my oil pump while it's not running? It seemed to read exactly what I had on the suction side when I was checking it when it was off. And then when I pulled a vacuum it pulled through the pump then also. I know I've been told to check my discharge temperatures on my head and my crankcase temperature is while it's running. I was kind of in a hurry that day I got thrown another call and we had a Christmas party at 12:00. All bad scenarios
I have the 71/2”, the 12” and the bigger set 18” I think of those Knipex wrenches and I use them to death on hydraulic lines etc., they are by far the handiest tools I’ve bought in a long time.
When talking to techs about oil issues I told them to do an initial easy check that is to reverse the rotation of the compressor. This would allow you to check two things first if the oil level changes when you reverse the compressor rotation then the crankshaft was either pushing oil up against the glass or away from it that’s why I always tell them to check oil levels when the compressor was off. Secondly if you see an oil pump pressure increase on the reversal then the lobes in the oil pump are worn and it’s time to replace the oil pump Copeland oil pumps will work in either direction unlike other manufacturers
That’s kind of interesting, I’ve never tried checking the oil, pressure and One Direction versus the other but I will have to consider trying that one time. I will mention that after cleaning the screens and oil pressure switch. I never had to go back out after that.
Just a thought....the evaporator may be oil logged. Let us know what you find if there is a call back. Thanks for the videos!
It's also possible that the oil return orifice in the suction accumulator might be plugged. Might also explain the oil at the suction service valve, after resetting the trip the refrigerant in the trapped oil quickly boils off and some oil often surges back to the compressor. Should be easy to find because the accumulator looks like a bucket filled with cold water when you look at it with a thermal camera. Same thing for an oil logged evaporator, you see some big temperature differences on the evaporator
@@gabbertje2811 I mentioned the weep whole possibly being plugged in the accumulator. I will know by the end of next week if it does it again.
In the past on multi compressor split suction racks, the low temp side suction pressure was lower than the med temp side. I found 1 low temp compressor had oil problems, there's a suction screen Inside the rear of compressor that caught A TON of copper shavings. Probably not the same problem your having, take it with a grain of salt
This oil problem just started happening, I have people I could have asked, I'm reluctant because I feel like I'm interrogated every time I do. Hence why I share what I do know better on TH-cam because I'm sure other people deal with this too.
Nice socket set❤
If the oil isn’t leaking out and over time more oil keeps getting added the volume of what I call circulated oil is to high and will be at every fitting in the system. Doesn’t explain why the oil keeps leaving the compressor but obviously it does. I bet the oil is in the evaporator. Crap on oil filter suggest crap clogging oil return in accumulator. Would still replace oil control before accumulator when it trips again. Never saw that screen filter before. Always learn from you.
good thing to keep in the van them oil absorbent pads or just good oil dippers I carry a few I got off of my sister-in-law when here daughter out grew them i used to have a pack of adult ones i got from my great gramother-in-law when she passed they work don't know what's cheaper the dippers or the actual pads
I use the knipex pliers wrench all the time, don't even carry regular wrenches in my bag
Me either, just the small basic gear wrench 1/2,9/16,5/8, 7/16
Gotta use the positive exchange valve. Makes oil changes waaaaaaaay easier
Tell me more about what you're talking about?
THE txv's are open too much and blowing the oil out of compressor,after defrost,oil is through out the system,no oil separator.had that before,hope that helps,thanks for sharing.
i had issues at a warehouse freezer i installed a time delay on the liquid solenoid that way it could pump down again after defrost so when the txv is warm after defrost it will pump down again before restarting because the txv is wide open. it cured my problems worked 35 years at hussmann
mine was the same brand of unit but larger
So where did you put the time delay in the circuit, and was it a delay on make or delay on break.
Nice job Rick!
Thanks Steve-O
I don't know why, but I am not crazy about that suction line being that cold and frosting. I think I would also suspect the TEV and superheat. I know we need some liquid coming back to carry the oil. I might also recommend an oil recovery unit like a hot gas oil separator to get the oil out and return it directly to the compressor. I never add oil unit till I find out where it went. One response said, you may have an oil log evep. And may be an accumulator.
For those reading this, I have 40+ years in HVAC/R and taught for 5 years. I am old school meaning R-12 and R-22. I am sure the principles are still the same. Oil should never be added unless it is a new system and need to balance the large system loss or you have a oil leak somewhere. Hard to diagnose without "Laying of Hands" on the system.
I'm not too worried about the temperature coming back as a matter of fact Copeland recommends 30° of superheat. We were well above that, meaning we don't have liquid coming back theoretically. Now when it comes out of defrost and stuff like that some people are worried about that point of the startup, but you got to remember this does pump down so the refrigerant is stacked back at the condenser and the evaporator should be completely empty of refrigerant. Like I mentioned in the video I have a feeling that the accumulator has a plugged weep hole or it's slightly restricted. If that thing gets plugged it will not return oil to the compressor.
There are tools that are most adequate, that we don't have to over spend on, and that socket set is one of them.
I have a hard time spending extra on solid raw metal tools like a socket. 👍👍 The only thing snap on has on most sockets is they snapped it off in your wallet. 😁 They were good tools...
Good job Rick.
Weird segue from inflation to “people who are ant free money” … I’m afraid I don’t follow the logic, but good video besides. I really like that self adjusting wrench/ pliers thing you have, looks handy.
I said “there is NO FREE MONEY” My point was the price of products went up because of the free money given away from the plan-demic causing inflation. Most people don’t understand basic economics and believe the government makes money, they don’t make anything or give anything that they haven’t TAKEN from someone else.
@@HVACRSurvival fair enough,it’s your channel. I like your hvac info, it’s educational and entertaining. I really want one of those wrenches. I’m starting hvac training this spring, seems like they’d be handy to have.
It’s my favorite.
If the suction accumulator is in good condition you have to check the piping or to check if needs oil separator
I haven't ever seen an oil separator on a simple unit like this, only on grocery racks. Something else might be wrong but this just started after at least 10 plus years. There are 6 other systems at this location just like this that are working. Either I got it fixed or it's one of the things I mentioned while looking at my phone in the truck. Time will tell
@@HVACRSurvival in Europe rule of thumb if it is a freezer needs oil separator the suction pressure is too low to move the oil back to the compressor 1,5 bar or 21,70 psi it starts to have oil return problems.
Tip change the working temperature of the freezer to a higher temperature : example from -1⁰F or -18⁰C to around 38⁰F or 3⁰C for one hour an change the txv superheat to full open this is forcing the system to run on higher pressure and forces more liquid refrigerant to flush the evaporator from the oil be careful and don't over doing it one to two hour is enough to return the 95% of the oil.
Pickup screen not checked by previous techs. Pain to get to that one. Your sentronic sensor can give you clues what your pickup screen looks like. Start up will have some liquid flood. 4d comp. Should have 45 lbs net oil. Evap coil could likely be very dirty being medium temp. Then history could show temp issues and previous guys opening up txvs. Goes forever doesnt it?
Thanks for the info👍👍. I got lucky on this one. I never went back after this call.
I've had to replace the oil pump on a Copeland 3D comp before. The crank on the compressor somehow sheared off the paddle for the pump??? It did it twice and ended up replacing the comp after the second time. Replacement oil pump lasted a good 6 months before it broke apart.
Hey can you talk about saturation. What it is and what it's for and explain what we need to be around.?
It’s a rule of thumb but it depends on the application you’re working on. 10-15 * below your desired box temp, or 15-30* above ambient. There’s not enough room in the comments section to cover it in great detail but that’s what rule of thumb is. Pick up this book. It’s really strait to the point and covers this and a lot more. amzn.to/3YO10MJ
Accumulator and rust on floor of condensing unit rusted showing that unit used to alot of flood back. Also thought unit needs body cooling fan being low temp. Do capicity check on compressor. Does it hold a pump down? Evap coil located next to door in warehouse? Door being left open? Strip curtains cut and missing? Coil frosted over? Got a feeling its something more. I think youve been back...
This is a drive-in warehouse for food storage. Honestly, I don’t believe anybody else has gone back either and this was done I think last year. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen an outside cooling fan on one of these models. Usually only on the rack or a bigger unit side of the building. Not saying it wouldn’t hurt
great video, thank you 👍
Good idea if you plan on isolating the compressor to clean the sump screen, check the strainer in the sentronic as well. Then when you go to open your compressor valves back up have your guages on, open discharge first and see if your suction rises. You’ll be checking for blow by. Kill 3 birds with one stone.
Thank you ! all of those things are really good ideas. I didn't check the screen on the new sensor because it was new, and honestly I forgot about the screen at the back of the compressor. And I kind of forgot to do the valve check, my judgment was clouded because somebody else was there prior to me and I think they said they did the valve check. This is why I was upset but I didn't say anything about it in the video because they sometimes watch them too.
I deal with the same thing all the time. I hate following behind other mechanics, but it’s the nature of the job.
Awesome video...thanks!!
Could be the contactor single phasing the compressor or put a head cooler fan on the compressor and watch the oil level come up unless the rings are shot and it's a oil pumper.
It was possible, Granite, I check voltage drop across the legs. This video is from several months ago and I don't believe I had to go back for anything.
Once someone buys their first set of Knipex pliers, they don't often go back to anything else.
Sure they are higher priced, but a mentor of mine once told me "Tools don't cost money, they make money".
Bingo👍👍
Next time hook a hose up to the oil pump and let the compressor pump the oil into a bucket. Once you stop seeing oil come out of the hose, turn off the compressor. Obviously you'll have to add all that oil back.
Also, there is typically a pick up tube that that screen sits in. There's a channel that has to face down or you'll have bad oil flow.
I've also seen compressors that continuously pump the oil out, probably due to weak/ failed piston rings. Just gotta replace those compressors.
Another thought is if that compressor is overheating, tripping that protection module, it'll trip the oil.
Oil is definitely a beast of its own.
Those are such great ideas! Thanks! Pumping it into a bucket is so simple but I didn't think it it🤦🏻. I'm not sure I've seen a particular way for the oil screen to fit?
@@HVACRSurvival the first time one of the old timers showed me that I thought the same thing.
That oil pick up screen sits inside a metal pick up tube. If you put your pinky inside that hole you'll feel it. You kinda have to hook it with your pinky and wiggle it past the threads. Or a pick works too. The opening on that metal tube has to face down. There are some pick up screens that don't have a pick up tube, but they're bigger and have a circle pattern on them. You don't see those ones very often.
If you Google "Copeland screen oil kit" the URI website will have a picture of it.
im gonna spitball here since ive had a ton of issues with copelands in the past...I think you have weak rings and maybe a broken reed. might be a good idea to pull it down and do a rebuild.
by pulling it down and pulling the heads off you can check the cylinder walls and see if it has any ridges or wear. its a win win.
Most of us in the trades feel the same way "there's no free money" and disgusted with able body people who won't work for a living. Somebody always has to pay that bill!
Uuhg, yeah. They need to be watched I guess. Frustrating, I guess you just gotta be cool and keep a close eye on it.
We do a lot of work at this place, it's not my favorite place but the guy that watches it (who works there) is pretty aware of what's going on.
Thanks Rick! Merry Christmas! Best Regards to Your Bride!
Thanks Rich! I hope you're doing well and Very Merry CHRISTmas to you!
Another awesome video 👍👍👍
Good video 👍 buddy
Glad you enjoyed
Use plastic grocery bags under compressor oil drain and cardboard. No mess.
Great idea
Great content. Good info. Thank you.
Thank you for checking it out!
Recall right ahead lol
Oil maintenance
🇺🇸👍❄💪🙏 love how u operate doctor. Great troubleshooting thanks
Been using Knipex plier wrenches for 6 years now and have yet to round anything off with one.
They are unbelievable for sure 🤜🤛👍👍
Great video
Thanks James!
Have to love your American tool comments 3 times though you video and your service truck is a Nissan Class Act.
Lots of wear metal on that screen so it's running oil starved or flooding back and washing the oil out of the cylinders. 33º superheat is high so maybe a metering device issue? All that oil in the suction tells me the return velocity is low, there's not enough load to blow the oil back. Sure the evaporator is getting good airflow and the TXV is opening up enough?
Copeland requires 30° of superheat minimum at the compressor. The inside box temperature is negative 5 to negative 10. Suction did seem a little low. Obviously I didn't check superheat at the TXV, these evaporators are 20 ft in the air and they have all kinds of crap in the way to get to them. We hadn't had any problems with this prior till just recently and this has been in for quite a while.
0 amps = 0 resistance.. and 0 resistance probably confirms leaking rings “blow-by”
Maybe 🤔
I should have checked that, but on the positive side I wasn’t called back out for that problem.
What brand is that red handle tool ???
Looks like a crescent wrench
"Knipex" is a German company with some of the best tools. I've had real good luck with them. amzn.to/3BvWiXu
I didn’t know Owen Wilson was a refer-tech
I'm not sure how you think we look a like😂
Has a contactor been changed? On some semi hermetics the pump doesn't work but in one direction. The larger ones I think aren't, but some of the smaller ones are actually rotation dependent
Yep, I might have cut it out but I originally mentioned I replaced it last year. The direction would be interesting to know. I know the compressor doesn't usually care when it's a reciprocating but I can't say for sure on the oil pump.
@@HVACRSurvival the direction of the pump looked good. You'll have low net if it's running backwards.
Why is that solenoid so far away from the evaporator?
Cheaper and easier for them to install it there. It also is a lot easier to change it, usually it gets frozen up with the TXV. Whatever reason they like to put it there at my company. But if it's a long liquid run we don't do that.
Send Trevor Mathews a message and ask him. Thats an interesting conundrum you find yourself in. Im not into replacing parts willy nilly myself and any good tech like yourself wont always have all the answers to every situation
I've had him look at things before in the past and he didn't seem to interested🤷.
@HVACR Survival thats a shame. I know you did your best....and thats all anyone could ask for
@@jasonjohnsonHVAC the video I told him about was the one where I split the head open on a call I was running after hours at a gas station. The thumbnail is of my van shining the headlights onto the condenser unit. He's busy and that's understandable. We haven't been back to that one yet 🤣, it needed to be replaced. 🤷
was there power outages there before the problem/s occurred? maybe something in combination of a long power outage and oil pump out due to flood back on restart with warm box?
sometimes it's hard to get the whole story from anyone and you have to think clear outside the whole solar system or become magician and mind reader. 🤣
No power outages, plus there are several set up and piped the same way. I'd be having redundant problems. This is all one big open warehouse. I haven't heard anything about it tripping yet, we will see soon enough.
you have a txv issue. that suction pressure and superheat should have been higher with the freezer off for awhile.
That wouldn't surprise me with that much crap in the oil, it's probably inside the TXV too. Most people don't worry about superheat like they should around here. They tend to think since it was set once why the hell should you have to mess with it again. Then you get accused of wasting too much time. You can't win
@@HVACRSurvival your more likely to have a txv issue or even an evaporator fan delay issue. 99 percent the oil control is doing its job. I believe you can change the phase on the semi compressor and that will reverse the oil pump rotation as well
@@SeanMackBuffaloStyle if I go back I'll check it at the txv.
Let us know if you solved the problem ... I'd say you did !!! Thx ...
The screen didn't look so good. Kinda cold there, eh? That thing got any head pressure controls?
30* f that day. It has a headmaster valve and a fan cycle switch.
What do you mean by not fast enough for analog vs digital for pressure switches?
It takes time for a transducer to translate that pressure to digital reading and a lot of times they don't want to show you a rapidly moving display so they'll usually use a thing called sampling rate. That means they'll show you an updated reading every so many microseconds to potentially 2 to 5 seconds so that it seems like everything is nice and steady. A good example of this is your digital thermometer. When you grab a hold of it generally it takes quite a while for it to drop or rise in temperature. But if you get a thermistor a lot of times it'll be really fast. Another example is a analog meter versus a digital meter. And analog meter is going to respond instantly because it's directly inputting the signal right to a electromagnet that controls the needle. That's why fluke and several other manufacturers added an analog graph at the bottom of the digital display.
Thanks a lot Rick. I had no idea. Could’ve ran into some issues down the line. This is what I tell guys. There’s always something you pick up on a video. Keep them coming.
@@Attest411 I find out most of what I know from mistakes I've made 😁
wrong freon for the oil in the system ?
No I doubt it, it's R-404a and we've been working with this place for a long time. We've been lucky to have a group of technicians.
What is the price of Inficon there?
After the 8% discount it's still $1148. Got to thank that good-old inflation caused from printing more money. Spend spend spend
@@HVACRSurvival Thanks, I'm dealing with refrigeration business in Turkey.
Yeah you may not have the exact same problem as us but most governments tend to print more than they have so it makes everything more expensive. I guess either way the dollar goes down in value the price goes up and it still screws you because it's coming from here.
@@HVACRSurvival Yes, unfortunately there is an economic crisis around the world, but we have an inflation gap that is twice the total of Europe.
Adjust superheat at evaporators.and check the next day.sometimes the solutions are easy.
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