Thank you very much for building the Kaly42. I am really glad that the idea of making it as straight forward as possible to buy, build and use was reflected in your experience too! Many decisions were taken to reduce effort in building the Kaly42, such as reducing the cost or only using through hole soldering and no diodes (the Corne, for example, has 42 surface mount diodes! Those are harder to solder!) and I am really happy too see it reflected in someone's experience. I am pretty overjoyed that the Kaly42 even showed up in a video that isn't my own! That was indeed a big surprise and it made my day! I just had to tell my friends and family :D I plan on making a hot-swap version in the future, making more videos on how to extract the full potential of the Kaly42 (I use 8 layers, with typing, navigation, mouse and gaming included!) and also finally pushing the Vial branch of the firmware into the vial repository. Making the Kaly42 was a Journey, from the tendinitis that started it, to the connections that I made, to the excellent community of keyboard makers, to learning circuits to make my own and finally building it and sharing it with others, and I'd like to thank you for being part of this journey too!
I just built a skeletyl. The switches were 13€, the controllers 15€, keycaps 29€, TRRS cable and jacks 10€. The rest was 3D printed by myself and I handwired it so I would guess about € extra in diodes, wires and filament. So about 75€ but the keycaps and cable are reusable and I have some switches/jacks left. Took me about a week worth of evenings as an absolute beginner. Ofc course you need a 3D printer and a soldering iron. I initially went with 3D printed caps but the smoothnes and the sound of the pom keycaps was worth it.
Aye, BastardKBs are great. Some of them offer integrated pointing devices, such as trackball or touch pad. My fav is the Skeletyl's sibling: the Charybdis.
I got my first splitkb from watching your review on the Glove80, I got it for myself and after a month of learning it, I'm lovin' it. It's crazy how these are not the norm but the exceptions. They're so comfortable!
I built my corne classic v.2 for around 40$ 11$ for 5 pcbs plus shipping (I live in SEA) that will be 2.5 pairs of corne. 3$ for 3mm Acrylic for top and bottom plates 9$ for 2 nrf52840 supermini mcu 2$ for 2 of 180mAh battery 6$ for 42 gateron milky yellow switches 10$ for xda keycaps 1$ for 1N4148 diodes sockets,pins, 3D printed case, laser cutting are considered free for me. I also sold a leftover pair of PCB for 10$ and still have a half left in case anything broke.
That shopping spree is exactly how I do my deep dive into a new hobby buying up 'best practices' things upfront and most of the time the investment is worth it but sometimes it's extra junk lying around my home which I feel guilty about whenever I look at those things again. I relate with that feeling so much.
I'm really glad that you like the kaly! I use mine everyday for programming and I love it to bits! I cut out base plates for each half from 2mm thick sheet steel, and stuck them under each pcb with double sided tape. It gives some welcome rigidity and stability, especially when using it tented. For tenting I use laptop legs from ali express. They work wonders! Please release the files for the case! It looks absolutely fantastic!
I get paid by the page , and my kinesis advantage has paid itself off in four months . rough first two months , but cooking with gas now . also not taking my wrists to a physio , started with extra pads top of the extra wrist wrests , my reach to letter P was so compromised . worth every penny
On the bit about pre-builts being "too-expensive", I think the problem isn't just the absolute price. Its also also the fact that for many people a split, non-row-staggered keyboard is a form factor entirely foreign to them. Where I'm from, a Moonlander or Voyager comes to over $500 after currency conversions. For enthusiasts, adventurers or people who's health problems are severe enough this can be justified. But for a lot of people, dropping $400, $500, $600+ on a form factor that they've never used, that looks completely weird to them, and that they don't even know if they're going to like is a biiiiiiig ask. Even for me the only reason I'm spending $550 on a moonlander is because I've seen enough people say it's helped their pain, and I'm desperate enough to take the risk of it not working out. Not sure what the solution to this problem is though.
I would spend anything on a keyboard that improves my work life. Magic Keyboard (5 years) > HHKB (4 years) > ZSA Voyager (current, due to wrist pain, already resolved since it arrived months ago). Money can always be made. On the other hand, health and time...
I love the Defy boards concept since who thought putting useful tools 34 feet from all the other buttons inventory an maps should not be so far hehe also having a mouse not close to my chest has ruined my shoulder a bit XD
I built the corne recently with a pretty cheap soldering iron from taobao, the tip that came with it seemed good enough. I just used a slab of cheap MDF instead of buying a dedicated mat. you can also just use a sponge or even wet kitchen towels instead of brass wool. The fume extractor is a bit OTT too, it's about a day of soldering per open source keyboard if you're a newb like me, it's not really worth it unless you're doing soldering every day, just remember to breathe out. I remember having to do soldering in high school and it was a public school, didn't have much fancy equipment either. Another thing is, you can make the microcontroller and OLED screen hotswappable, which means that you can reuse those as well as the keyswitches/caps for other PCB designs. It's a bit disingenuous to compare the corne kit with LEDs, tenting, wireless (which adds more components and a more expensive microcontroller), when those features aren't features included in the Kaly42.
Agreed that it would be disingenuous if I was comparing a fully specced Corne kit with the Kaly42. Good thing I was comparing the Corne to other boards with similar features instead. And the point of the soldering equipment WAS to be over the top ;)
Hey! I just found your channel because I was looking for Glove80 reviews, but I ended up really liking your content and stayed for it. Keep it up!!! :)
It is true, although in my opinion you could say that there are several levels of DIY and depending on that, I can be expensive or not. In my case I put together one just to my liking from scratch and I think I spent no more than 70 dollars, of course hand wired.
Ferris Sweep is super cheap and don't need diodes so no need to solder small surface mount parts. I also modified mine to work with Vial which in my oppinion is one of the most powerful qmk configurators out there.
great video! I guess the difference is A) the price for tools is fixed, so your 2nd built keyboard onwards is cheaper, and B) If you intend to eventually design a keyboard making some kits seems like a good first step. but your point still stands, building a keyboard is not really a cheaper option!
The option of making your own keyboard can indeed be much cheaper! You can get a Kaly42 "keyboard kit" (sourcing the parts yourself) as low as 20$ (or 32$ for one) instead of 70$ in Keebmaker! The Corne with switches and keycaps (no assembly) comes out for 127$, while the Kaly42 comes out for 50-60$, that is half-off! You can see a detailed explanation of that in one of my top level comments in this video! Good quality soldering equipment (assuming you don't have any at home, which would make this cost 0$) can be purchased for as low as 40$, while assembly is often up to 100$. Overall that means that building it yourself is at least (possibly more!) half off if you source your parts right! Edit: it seems that my comment hasn't shown up yet...? I'll reply with the explanation here if it doesn't show up in a day.
@Dwctor good points. I maybe should have said making your own keyboard is not always cheaper! I'm about to dip my toe into this, just gathering parts to build my first board, a 'cheapino' which, as the name suggests, is quite cheap to build!
Yes, I suppose I made some unstated assumptions about the total cost being for those who are starting from scratch. And definitely, a lot of the soldering equipment I mentioned is for convenience or can be foregone completely. If I reused existing keyboard parts (keyswitches, keycaps, etc) then the Kaly42 would've only cost me ~$40. @Dwctor I'm surprised you are able to source all the parts yourself for only $20! I need to know your supplier 😆 If I were just starting with split keyboards and starting from scratch, I'd rather build one myself and buy a set of useful tools that could be used over and over, all for less than the cost of buying a prebuilt keyboard.
@@ifcodingwerenatural I'd love to share more about how I built the Kaly (including suppliers!). I did try to in a few other comments, but they were deleted... could you check your email? Many thanks!
@@ifcodingwerenatural this video really did make me feel even better about wanting the Defy an the Gameball Mouse which together is pretty beefy indeed more then one those 30 buck combo packs
I'd be curious to hear what would have to change in your workflow that would make you consider Create's high price. I'm the community moderator, I could answer any questions you have about it too. Good video all in all, it's crazy how expensive electronics can get.
I use MT3 profile keycaps on a low profile keyboard. The heights and angles of each row slightly approximate a key well. Also the cupped tops feel great to type on.
While totally agreeing with the point that prebuilt split keyboards are reasonably priced for their build quality and niche market position I don’t agree with the argumentation on the cost of building one oneself: 100 bucks for soldering gear is a great overstatement. A iron that gets the job done and leaded leaded solder should be less than 30 bucks, especially when buying used. This way you don’t need to buy flux, solder pumps are awful to use, better buy copper wick, but even that is not needed even if you make a mistake. In many cities there are also maker meetups, hacker groups or repair cafés where awesome people provide soldering gear and guide beginners, making that totally free and a great experience.
Came here to say the same thing. I got a cheap all in one soldering kit for $25 a few years ago and it works well if only doing occasional soldering. Otherwise I agree with the video.
Ergo keyboards with integrated pointing devices: Charybdis (trackball) or Dilemma (trackpad) by a Belgian dude. My comments keep disappearing, I wonder if it's because of his company's name? The Charybdis is my favorite ergo keyboard among many (almost all of yours and more).
Weird, other's have emailed me saying their comments have been disappearing too 🤔. But yeah, I'd love to have an integrated pointing device built into my keyboard. A big reason I want to get my hands on the Naya Create.
@@ifcodingwerenatural Agreed, from the commercial input devices the Naya Create is one of the most interesting, exactly because of the this attractive combination of keyboard with pointing devices (or even more specialized parts). The price is rather high, even more than the prebuilt Charybdis was - I suspect the Charybdis might be more comfortable thanks to the steep tenting and ergonomically sculpted shape, I find it more comfortable than Kinesis Advantage 1 and 360 and MoErgo Glove80. And all of those I find more comfortable than flat ergo keyboards such as ErgoDox, Moonlander, Voyager, Sofle, Truly Ergonomic, KeyboardIO and Dygma Defy. The latter I only tried once, the others I own(ed) myself. Looking forward to seeing how you do with your new 3x6 Kaly 42 keyboard. Personally I find that going to a keyboard with less than 4x6 main keys would ideally offer more thumb keys than they usually have. The Kaly's 3 thumb keys are on the minimal side IMO, but I guess it can be done. The Sofle I used also only has 3 keys that are barely comfortable enough for thumb use. The voyager's only 2 thumb keys were too few for my taste, because I wasn't ready for home row mods or other drastic changes like that to cope with the lack of more thumb keys. You seem to have no such issues with the Voyager, how did you do it? Did you share your Oryx layout somewhere?
I was looking into getting a nicer mechanical keyboard and now am falling down this rabbit hole of split ergo keyboards. and while the prices aren't cheap per se, considering the added complexity these aren't particularly expensive either when contrasted with a lot of other stuff in the keyboard world. the only way to get cheap is to have mass manufactured stuff that cuts corners. anything that is done in small runs is gonna be expensive and especially so if someone needs to solder and assemble it by hand.
I’d be really interested to try that Naya Create as well, but I can’t choke down that price tag. I’m pretty happy with the Advantage 360. I don’t know if you’ve completely given up on the 360 (would be understandable given the issues a lot of people have with BT connectivity and it being an absolute chonk for travel) but there are GUI configurators for it now. It still requires flashing the firmware, though, so it’s not as simple as “save it and it’s updated” like, IIRC, the ZSA configurator is.
Yeah, I've shelved the Adv360 in favor of the Glove80. The BLE issues really killed it for me on the Adv360 Pro. The GUI for the Adv360 Pro has been around from the start, but it doesn't support advanced features of ZMK (last I checked anyway), which is disappointing because customizing your ZMK config is a big reason to get the "Pro" version in the first place.
Such a shame. The non-Pro Advantage 360 is my second favorite keyboard, and I actually prefer it over the Glove80, because of its weight and robustness. I only need macros as well as double-use keys as advanced features ("double-use" such as Shift on hold and Enter on tap), both of which even the non-Pro can do well enough for my needs.
I'm really wondering what you would think about the Charybdis keyboard or the Dactyl Manuform with trackball (sometimes called Tractyl Manuform). I wonder how you would feel using it as a "mouse replacement" or at least as a supplement and how it would contribute to a more keyboard-centric workflow.
Hey, I'm new to split keyboards and didn't want to pay these prices, so I build one entitely from scratch myself. Cost for equipment beside (I borrowed the solder iron), it was a great experience. Maybe this is also a thing for you, as you are familiar with 3D-editing. As you also mentioned the different configurators, what's your opinion on QMK/VIA? :)
Naya Community Moderator here! Just wanted to point out having more pinky keys both provides more macros for power users and (critically) gives us more surface area to keep the keyboard stable when it's folded in the tented position. I'm a corne user normally, but I'm okay with the extra keys since are kind of multi-use.
Why do you ignore the option of a dactyl manuform? I know you chose kinesis advantage over moonlander due to the "curve" in the keyboard, so dactyl got you covered in this aspect, plus you can (and should) approach to desiding thumbcluster, from choosing trackball/encoder to tilt ange, key count etc. It does have it's drawbacks of harder layout customization and is a harder challenge overall, but seems the best option, taking into accout the range of customization. The only drawback i see is questionable acoustics in most default builds, as it is quite hollow, but I am sure it can be improved.
I DO think split mechanical keyboard out there are overpriced. 95% of the advantages of using a split mechanical keyboard lies on it being split, orthogonal, mechanical and programmable. You don’t need RGB backlight, you don’t need expensive keycaps, you don’t *necessarily* need any special web-based layout configuration application (read online tutorials about how to compile and flash you firmware), you don’t need special plastic pieces or comfy pads to give it some inclination, rise it from your desk or rest your wrist (build the pieces yourself with cardboard). You don't need it either to be concave like a Dactyl, although it might increase ergonomics. Besides that, you don’t need all the electronic and soldering stuffs you mentioned to build just ONE keyboard; if you have those tools, you may well use them to build twenty keyboards. I had zero experience in electronics and soldering, and I did build my Sofle keyboard buying all components on Aliexpress, except the PCBs, and reading online tutorials. If you are a computer nerd somehow, a programmer, or are just curious enough, you can do the same. Not including the tools I had to buy because it was just my first time building one keyboard, the total cost of my built was not above 100 dollars, and this included shipping from China (Aliexpress). Now that I have the tools and knowledge (except electronics), I can build almost any split mechanical keyboard just by reading online tutorials and watching TH-cam videos. Of course, I would also need the time to do so. So, yes, 300-400 bucks is overpriced in my opinion.
Please run your "overpriced" opinion through the economies of scale model. It's a niche. If you look at the mechanical keyboard market you can now get a board that used to cost $200 plus for about 60 including an aluminum frame. That's because of the hobby became popular enough to have economies of scale. I guarantee you there are no mustachioed engineers getting rich in the split mechanical keyboard market.
I am also planning to build a split keyboard myself. What I don't understand is that there are controllers with 2MB and some with 20MB. When and where does the controller with 2MB reach its limits? What can I not realize with it that is possible with the 20MB controller? I mean, it's just a keyboard.
I really wish someone made just a simple membrane split keyboard so the layout would get popular. No matter how superior the layout is, most people just won't be spending that much money on keyboards, because they probably don't even have that much to spend on a keyboard. It's a shame.
They're not expensive because of the switches. Switches for a 36 key build can easily be under 15€, even cheaper. These are expensive because they are a low volume niche product that requires a lot of labor to build, use hobbyist components and require custom fabrication. To get the price down, you need to design one for mass production.
@@SaltyMaud That's what I'm saying, just take a 60% keyboard, split into two, and do column stagger instead of row stagger. They're a niche product because $300 keyboards are a niche product. If ergonomic mice can be bought for like $10, I can't see why you couldn't get a membrane split keyboard for like $40. (300% price increase over just a random membrane board)
@@pepavasata6790 You need to convince some keyboard manufacturer that there is enough demand for such a product to tool up for mass production then. But for the love of all that thocks, don't make a membrane keyboard in 2024, the cost of mechanical switches is trivial.
How the hell did you manage to get 20$ shipping cost from JLC? I just checked some past orders and shipping was always 5-10$ for me (Switzerland). Did you select some express option?
Does writing with 36 keys make things better for you? I never had RSI, but I would imagine having less keys should remove the need of having a concave keyboard like the kinesis.
Sure they're overpriced, but these niche products are by default overpriced since they don't benefit from economies of scale. Until someone (Keychron, likely) brings these to mainstream with mass production, I'm sticking to alice layout. Not too excited to pay 400€+ for a flimsy 3d printed DIY project.
anyone complaining about the price of something you use every single day at the sake of your health that will cost so much more if you don't take care of your hands hasn't had to deal with the struggle of losing your job output due to said issues. to get something more ergo friendly for under $1000 is insane
yup sure we can make a cheap aliexpress DIY board but something like Dygma boards have so many features to use an if the board ever starts to break someone surely will make a repair possible :3
finally a video that can shut up the group of people who go into a prebuilt ergonomic comment section an just go ahahaa pay my bills or get a keyboard with more lights ya fools you get razers useless dookie for 300 already
that is very cheap people got to stop acting like anything being 35 bucks is peak deal when that device its objectively terrible compared to a ton of stuff
For the cost of glove 80 which is good to have/nice to have, its in the price range of a new pc or a new phone which can do way more things than a 400 to 500 keyboard granted if you have wrist issues there is no price tag for health, otherwise i can see why normal people calling it expensive for something in the good to have category
look up the damn feature list on some of these dude Dygma has each key have 5 inputs including having one input do more then one action pair that with all the layout layers that feature alone Apple would make a 2000 dollar pro feature
look up the feature list mate Dygma for example every key has 5 functions an those inputs can all have more then one action when pressed that feature alone Apple would make 1000 dollar pro-line feature
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 No kidding, if Apple made and sold true split ergonomic hotswappable boards, it would cost two grand easy. But the whole concept is so non-Apple anyway that we never have to worry about that. What, let the user swap out parts? You mean they can program their own keys? Pfffft.
@@leerv. if y someone showed them projects like Alpakka controller they would blow a gasket processing it that controllers built to be modified an has full gyro control hehe
Lily58 looks very similar to other 4x6 keyboards such as the Sofle, seems like a solid pick as well. I chose to try a Sofle v1 between these two to try the extra knobs it offers. I prefer it to the Voyager because it has more thumb keys - though they could be positioned better (further away from the main keys). Sofle v2 is better in that regard. All of them are nice small keyboards, easy to transport / for on-the-go. For stationary keyboards I prefer sculpted ones (BastardKB Charybdis > Kinesis 360 non-Pro > Glove80 rev2)
Started with a Lily58 and thought i could use it and a Sofle, what i bad idea. Switched then to Sofle(s) just to have the same exakt layourt everywhere. Also i have to mention i was very happy to find out that splitkb hat prebuilt vial firmware for both (ordered my PCBs and some parts there)
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Thank you very much for building the Kaly42. I am really glad that the idea of making it as straight forward as possible to buy, build and use was reflected in your experience too! Many decisions were taken to reduce effort in building the Kaly42, such as reducing the cost or only using through hole soldering and no diodes (the Corne, for example, has 42 surface mount diodes! Those are harder to solder!) and I am really happy too see it reflected in someone's experience.
I am pretty overjoyed that the Kaly42 even showed up in a video that isn't my own! That was indeed a big surprise and it made my day! I just had to tell my friends and family :D
I plan on making a hot-swap version in the future, making more videos on how to extract the full potential of the Kaly42 (I use 8 layers, with typing, navigation, mouse and gaming included!) and also finally pushing the Vial branch of the firmware into the vial repository.
Making the Kaly42 was a Journey, from the tendinitis that started it, to the connections that I made, to the excellent community of keyboard makers, to learning circuits to make my own and finally building it and sharing it with others, and I'd like to thank you for being part of this journey too!
I just built a skeletyl. The switches were 13€, the controllers 15€, keycaps 29€, TRRS cable and jacks 10€. The rest was 3D printed by myself and I handwired it so I would guess about € extra in diodes, wires and filament. So about 75€ but the keycaps and cable are reusable and I have some switches/jacks left. Took me about a week worth of evenings as an absolute beginner. Ofc course you need a 3D printer and a soldering iron. I initially went with 3D printed caps but the smoothnes and the sound of the pom keycaps was worth it.
Aye, BastardKBs are great. Some of them offer integrated pointing devices, such as trackball or touch pad. My fav is the Skeletyl's sibling: the Charybdis.
Its sibling, the Charybdis, is the same but with a trackball on one half - my favorite ergo keyboard to date.
I got my first splitkb from watching your review on the Glove80, I got it for myself and after a month of learning it, I'm lovin' it. It's crazy how these are not the norm but the exceptions. They're so comfortable!
I could never go back to a regular keyboard.
I built my corne classic v.2 for around 40$
11$ for 5 pcbs plus shipping (I live in SEA) that will be 2.5 pairs of corne.
3$ for 3mm Acrylic for top and bottom plates
9$ for 2 nrf52840 supermini mcu
2$ for 2 of 180mAh battery
6$ for 42 gateron milky yellow switches
10$ for xda keycaps
1$ for 1N4148 diodes
sockets,pins, 3D printed case, laser cutting are considered free for me.
I also sold a leftover pair of PCB for 10$ and still have a half left in case anything broke.
I paid ~$200 for a pre-soldered Piantor from BeeKeeb!
That shopping spree is exactly how I do my deep dive into a new hobby buying up 'best practices' things upfront and most of the time the investment is worth it but sometimes it's extra junk lying around my home which I feel guilty about whenever I look at those things again. I relate with that feeling so much.
Stoked for your inevitable Svalboard build & review
I’m so tempted to get one!
Props for building the 8-bit!
I'm really glad that you like the kaly! I use mine everyday for programming and I love it to bits!
I cut out base plates for each half from 2mm thick sheet steel, and stuck them under each pcb with double sided tape. It gives some welcome rigidity and stability, especially when using it tented.
For tenting I use laptop legs from ali express. They work wonders!
Please release the files for the case! It looks absolutely fantastic!
And thank you for the suggestion! It was a great choice :)
@@ifcodingwerenatural I’ve let him know on discord about your shoutout! He was ecstatic! :D
wait, it's 9 bucks for 5 PCBs? i always thought they show the price for one PCB and i then multiplied it by 5. that makes things way cheaper!
I get paid by the page , and my kinesis advantage has paid itself off in four months . rough first two months , but cooking with gas now . also not taking my wrists to a physio , started with extra pads top of the extra wrist wrests , my reach to letter P was so compromised . worth every penny
On the bit about pre-builts being "too-expensive", I think the problem isn't just the absolute price. Its also also the fact that for many people a split, non-row-staggered keyboard is a form factor entirely foreign to them. Where I'm from, a Moonlander or Voyager comes to over $500 after currency conversions. For enthusiasts, adventurers or people who's health problems are severe enough this can be justified. But for a lot of people, dropping $400, $500, $600+ on a form factor that they've never used, that looks completely weird to them, and that they don't even know if they're going to like is a biiiiiiig ask. Even for me the only reason I'm spending $550 on a moonlander is because I've seen enough people say it's helped their pain, and I'm desperate enough to take the risk of it not working out. Not sure what the solution to this problem is though.
I would spend anything on a keyboard that improves my work life. Magic Keyboard (5 years) > HHKB (4 years) > ZSA Voyager (current, due to wrist pain, already resolved since it arrived months ago).
Money can always be made. On the other hand, health and time...
I love the Defy boards concept since who thought putting useful tools 34 feet from all the other buttons inventory an maps should not be so far hehe
also having a mouse not close to my chest has ruined my shoulder a bit XD
I built the corne recently with a pretty cheap soldering iron from taobao, the tip that came with it seemed good enough. I just used a slab of cheap MDF instead of buying a dedicated mat. you can also just use a sponge or even wet kitchen towels instead of brass wool. The fume extractor is a bit OTT too, it's about a day of soldering per open source keyboard if you're a newb like me, it's not really worth it unless you're doing soldering every day, just remember to breathe out. I remember having to do soldering in high school and it was a public school, didn't have much fancy equipment either. Another thing is, you can make the microcontroller and OLED screen hotswappable, which means that you can reuse those as well as the keyswitches/caps for other PCB designs.
It's a bit disingenuous to compare the corne kit with LEDs, tenting, wireless (which adds more components and a more expensive microcontroller), when those features aren't features included in the Kaly42.
Agreed that it would be disingenuous if I was comparing a fully specced Corne kit with the Kaly42. Good thing I was comparing the Corne to other boards with similar features instead.
And the point of the soldering equipment WAS to be over the top ;)
Hey! I just found your channel because I was looking for Glove80 reviews, but I ended up really liking your content and stayed for it. Keep it up!!! :)
It is true, although in my opinion you could say that there are several levels of DIY and depending on that, I can be expensive or not. In my case I put together one just to my liking from scratch and I think I spent no more than 70 dollars, of course hand wired.
Ferris Sweep is super cheap and don't need diodes so no need to solder small surface mount parts. I also modified mine to work with Vial which in my oppinion is one of the most powerful qmk configurators out there.
great video! I guess the difference is A) the price for tools is fixed, so your 2nd built keyboard onwards is cheaper, and B) If you intend to eventually design a keyboard making some kits seems like a good first step. but your point still stands, building a keyboard is not really a cheaper option!
The option of making your own keyboard can indeed be much cheaper! You can get a Kaly42 "keyboard kit" (sourcing the parts yourself) as low as 20$ (or 32$ for one) instead of 70$ in Keebmaker! The Corne with switches and keycaps (no assembly) comes out for 127$, while the Kaly42 comes out for 50-60$, that is half-off! You can see a detailed explanation of that in one of my top level comments in this video! Good quality soldering equipment (assuming you don't have any at home, which would make this cost 0$) can be purchased for as low as 40$, while assembly is often up to 100$. Overall that means that building it yourself is at least (possibly more!) half off if you source your parts right!
Edit: it seems that my comment hasn't shown up yet...? I'll reply with the explanation here if it doesn't show up in a day.
@Dwctor good points. I maybe should have said making your own keyboard is not always cheaper! I'm about to dip my toe into this, just gathering parts to build my first board, a 'cheapino' which, as the name suggests, is quite cheap to build!
Yes, I suppose I made some unstated assumptions about the total cost being for those who are starting from scratch. And definitely, a lot of the soldering equipment I mentioned is for convenience or can be foregone completely. If I reused existing keyboard parts (keyswitches, keycaps, etc) then the Kaly42 would've only cost me ~$40. @Dwctor I'm surprised you are able to source all the parts yourself for only $20! I need to know your supplier 😆
If I were just starting with split keyboards and starting from scratch, I'd rather build one myself and buy a set of useful tools that could be used over and over, all for less than the cost of buying a prebuilt keyboard.
@@ifcodingwerenatural I'd love to share more about how I built the Kaly (including suppliers!). I did try to in a few other comments, but they were deleted... could you check your email? Many thanks!
It’s always important to keep in mind shipping. Glove80’s price INCLUDES shipping and shipping for that thing to the US is 100 bucks alone.
True, and same for keyboards from ZSA.
@@ifcodingwerenatural this video really did make me feel even better about wanting the Defy an the Gameball Mouse which together is pretty beefy indeed more then one those 30 buck combo packs
I'd be curious to hear what would have to change in your workflow that would make you consider Create's high price. I'm the community moderator, I could answer any questions you have about it too. Good video all in all, it's crazy how expensive electronics can get.
I use MT3 profile keycaps on a low profile keyboard. The heights and angles of each row slightly approximate a key well. Also the cupped tops feel great to type on.
While totally agreeing with the point that prebuilt split keyboards are reasonably priced for their build quality and niche market position I don’t agree with the argumentation on the cost of building one oneself:
100 bucks for soldering gear is a great overstatement. A iron that gets the job done and leaded leaded solder should be less than 30 bucks, especially when buying used.
This way you don’t need to buy flux, solder pumps are awful to use, better buy copper wick, but even that is not needed even if you make a mistake.
In many cities there are also maker meetups, hacker groups or repair cafés where awesome people provide soldering gear and guide beginners, making that totally free and a great experience.
Came here to say the same thing. I got a cheap all in one soldering kit for $25 a few years ago and it works well if only doing occasional soldering. Otherwise I agree with the video.
You should make a video on that computer, looks cool af.
Might want to check out the Keebio Iris 8. You get a lot of options, even to print it yourself.
Ergo keyboards with integrated pointing devices: Charybdis (trackball) or Dilemma (trackpad) by a Belgian dude. My comments keep disappearing, I wonder if it's because of his company's name?
The Charybdis is my favorite ergo keyboard among many (almost all of yours and more).
Weird, other's have emailed me saying their comments have been disappearing too 🤔. But yeah, I'd love to have an integrated pointing device built into my keyboard. A big reason I want to get my hands on the Naya Create.
@@ifcodingwerenatural Agreed, from the commercial input devices the Naya Create is one of the most interesting, exactly because of the this attractive combination of keyboard with pointing devices (or even more specialized parts). The price is rather high, even more than the prebuilt Charybdis was - I suspect the Charybdis might be more comfortable thanks to the steep tenting and ergonomically sculpted shape, I find it more comfortable than Kinesis Advantage 1 and 360 and MoErgo Glove80. And all of those I find more comfortable than flat ergo keyboards such as ErgoDox, Moonlander, Voyager, Sofle, Truly Ergonomic, KeyboardIO and Dygma Defy. The latter I only tried once, the others I own(ed) myself.
Looking forward to seeing how you do with your new 3x6 Kaly 42 keyboard. Personally I find that going to a keyboard with less than 4x6 main keys would ideally offer more thumb keys than they usually have. The Kaly's 3 thumb keys are on the minimal side IMO, but I guess it can be done. The Sofle I used also only has 3 keys that are barely comfortable enough for thumb use. The voyager's only 2 thumb keys were too few for my taste, because I wasn't ready for home row mods or other drastic changes like that to cope with the lack of more thumb keys.
You seem to have no such issues with the Voyager, how did you do it? Did you share your Oryx layout somewhere?
Love my Pinecil soldering iron
I was looking into getting a nicer mechanical keyboard and now am falling down this rabbit hole of split ergo keyboards. and while the prices aren't cheap per se, considering the added complexity these aren't particularly expensive either when contrasted with a lot of other stuff in the keyboard world. the only way to get cheap is to have mass manufactured stuff that cuts corners. anything that is done in small runs is gonna be expensive and especially so if someone needs to solder and assemble it by hand.
I’d be really interested to try that Naya Create as well, but I can’t choke down that price tag. I’m pretty happy with the Advantage 360.
I don’t know if you’ve completely given up on the 360 (would be understandable given the issues a lot of people have with BT connectivity and it being an absolute chonk for travel) but there are GUI configurators for it now. It still requires flashing the firmware, though, so it’s not as simple as “save it and it’s updated” like, IIRC, the ZSA configurator is.
Yeah, I've shelved the Adv360 in favor of the Glove80. The BLE issues really killed it for me on the Adv360 Pro. The GUI for the Adv360 Pro has been around from the start, but it doesn't support advanced features of ZMK (last I checked anyway), which is disappointing because customizing your ZMK config is a big reason to get the "Pro" version in the first place.
Such a shame. The non-Pro Advantage 360 is my second favorite keyboard, and I actually prefer it over the Glove80, because of its weight and robustness. I only need macros as well as double-use keys as advanced features ("double-use" such as Shift on hold and Enter on tap), both of which even the non-Pro can do well enough for my needs.
Nice video! thanks to share. One question, what is the typing tool that you use at the end of the video? thanks
I'm really wondering what you would think about the Charybdis keyboard or the Dactyl Manuform with trackball (sometimes called Tractyl Manuform). I wonder how you would feel using it as a "mouse replacement" or at least as a supplement and how it would contribute to a more keyboard-centric workflow.
Thank you for the video 👍
Hey, I'm new to split keyboards and didn't want to pay these prices, so I build one entitely from scratch myself. Cost for equipment beside (I borrowed the solder iron), it was a great experience.
Maybe this is also a thing for you, as you are familiar with 3D-editing.
As you also mentioned the different configurators, what's your opinion on QMK/VIA? :)
Woah is that Create in the thumbnail? I'm curious to see your insight here.
Did you sandwich a layer of foam or something under the kaly42 inside the case? The cavity for the pcb is really deep
have you tried any of the 3d printable tenting mounts for the voyager?
Nice vid! Can you share your layout config for this keyboard. I've a piantor (similar) but I keep switching modifiers because I'm not fully convinced
Naya? Oh that looks curious.... omg, wait, look at all those pinky keys! Uh, nevermind! They almost had my interest there, shoot...
Naya Community Moderator here! Just wanted to point out having more pinky keys both provides more macros for power users and (critically) gives us more surface area to keep the keyboard stable when it's folded in the tented position. I'm a corne user normally, but I'm okay with the extra keys since are kind of multi-use.
Why do you ignore the option of a dactyl manuform?
I know you chose kinesis advantage over moonlander due to the "curve" in the keyboard, so dactyl got you covered in this aspect, plus you can (and should) approach to desiding thumbcluster, from choosing trackball/encoder to tilt ange, key count etc. It does have it's drawbacks of harder layout customization and is a harder challenge overall, but seems the best option, taking into accout the range of customization. The only drawback i see is questionable acoustics in most default builds, as it is quite hollow, but I am sure it can be improved.
I DO think split mechanical keyboard out there are overpriced. 95% of the advantages of using a split mechanical keyboard lies on it being split, orthogonal, mechanical and programmable. You don’t need RGB backlight, you don’t need expensive keycaps, you don’t *necessarily* need any special web-based layout configuration application (read online tutorials about how to compile and flash you firmware), you don’t need special plastic pieces or comfy pads to give it some inclination, rise it from your desk or rest your wrist (build the pieces yourself with cardboard). You don't need it either to be concave like a Dactyl, although it might increase ergonomics. Besides that, you don’t need all the electronic and soldering stuffs you mentioned to build just ONE keyboard; if you have those tools, you may well use them to build twenty keyboards. I had zero experience in electronics and soldering, and I did build my Sofle keyboard buying all components on Aliexpress, except the PCBs, and reading online tutorials. If you are a computer nerd somehow, a programmer, or are just curious enough, you can do the same. Not including the tools I had to buy because it was just my first time building one keyboard, the total cost of my built was not above 100 dollars, and this included shipping from China (Aliexpress). Now that I have the tools and knowledge (except electronics), I can build almost any split mechanical keyboard just by reading online tutorials and watching TH-cam videos. Of course, I would also need the time to do so. So, yes, 300-400 bucks is overpriced in my opinion.
Just because you dont want a feature doesn't mean the company offering it is overcharging.
it literally does
Please run your "overpriced" opinion through the economies of scale model. It's a niche. If you look at the mechanical keyboard market you can now get a board that used to cost $200 plus for about 60 including an aluminum frame. That's because of the hobby became popular enough to have economies of scale.
I guarantee you there are no mustachioed engineers getting rich in the split mechanical keyboard market.
I am also planning to build a split keyboard myself. What I don't understand is that there are controllers with 2MB and some with 20MB. When and where does the controller with 2MB reach its limits? What can I not realize with it that is possible with the 20MB controller? I mean, it's just a keyboard.
Love your videos . Please , please review the ultimate hacking keyboard V2 .
I really wish someone made just a simple membrane split keyboard so the layout would get popular. No matter how superior the layout is, most people just won't be spending that much money on keyboards, because they probably don't even have that much to spend on a keyboard. It's a shame.
They're not expensive because of the switches. Switches for a 36 key build can easily be under 15€, even cheaper. These are expensive because they are a low volume niche product that requires a lot of labor to build, use hobbyist components and require custom fabrication. To get the price down, you need to design one for mass production.
@@SaltyMaud That's what I'm saying, just take a 60% keyboard, split into two, and do column stagger instead of row stagger. They're a niche product because $300 keyboards are a niche product. If ergonomic mice can be bought for like $10, I can't see why you couldn't get a membrane split keyboard for like $40. (300% price increase over just a random membrane board)
@@pepavasata6790 You need to convince some keyboard manufacturer that there is enough demand for such a product to tool up for mass production then. But for the love of all that thocks, don't make a membrane keyboard in 2024, the cost of mechanical switches is trivial.
When are you updating your plink neovim plugin btw ?
I would really not say that custom split keyboards are expensive, really depends on your wants. Build my keyboard for less than 100 dollars.
By splitting the keyboards can't you put a mouse functionality under both keyboards so you can have two mice?
Too many keys for me. 34 keys is my sweet spot.
Still though, that is a lovely keeb.
Also, KeebMaker 100% 👍
How the hell did you manage to get 20$ shipping cost from JLC?
I just checked some past orders and shipping was always 5-10$ for me (Switzerland).
Did you select some express option?
Does writing with 36 keys make things better for you? I never had RSI, but I would imagine having less keys should remove the need of having a concave keyboard like the kinesis.
9 dots keyb is the future
Sure they're overpriced, but these niche products are by default overpriced since they don't benefit from economies of scale. Until someone (Keychron, likely) brings these to mainstream with mass production, I'm sticking to alice layout. Not too excited to pay 400€+ for a flimsy 3d printed DIY project.
Dactyl Manuform from Wylderbuilds! Please!!!
Обожаю эргономичные клавиатуры ❤❤❤
Can you actually get the Naya Create? Could not find any reviews, except for the Naya Insights videos.
Pre-order product at the moment! We'll probably have more reviews some time around the start of next year (I'm the community moderator)
Can you share your voyager layout? 🎉
anyone complaining about the price of something you use every single day at the sake of your health that will cost so much more if you don't take care of your hands hasn't had to deal with the struggle of losing your job output due to said issues. to get something more ergo friendly for under $1000 is insane
yup sure we can make a cheap aliexpress DIY board but something like Dygma boards have so many features to use an if the board ever starts to break someone surely will make a repair possible :3
finally a video that can shut up the group of people who go into a prebuilt ergonomic comment section an just go ahahaa pay my bills or get a keyboard with more lights
ya fools you get razers useless dookie for 300 already
Yeah, 114 usd isn't cheap. But keyboard manufacturers are not buying these components from retail
that is very cheap people got to stop acting like anything being 35 bucks is peak deal when that device its objectively terrible compared to a ton of stuff
Slightly off topic, but which IDE are you using at 2:09?
I'm rocking neovim and tmux in the terminal. The terminal emulator I'm using is Wezterm.
For the cost of glove 80 which is good to have/nice to have, its in the price range of a new pc or a new phone which can do way more things than a 400 to 500 keyboard granted if you have wrist issues there is no price tag for health, otherwise i can see why normal people calling it expensive for something in the good to have category
what? you can buy a hotswappable one
you can get a sofle/ corne kit for like 30 all you need is pro micro switches and caps maybe like 60-70 max
Are you related to distrotube? You sound like him and have the same facial expressions.
Ha, not that I know of.
build myself a dactyl manuform for 80 bucks all sources from aliexpress other than my switches (40)!!!!!
Prebuilt keyboards are overpriced, my mind wasn't changed.
look up the damn feature list on some of these dude
Dygma has each key have 5 inputs including having one input do more then one action pair that with all the layout layers that feature alone Apple would make a 2000 dollar pro feature
just buy a pinecil.
The Pinecil look really neat.
Nope still seems overpriced.
look up the feature list mate
Dygma for example every key has 5 functions an those inputs can all have more then one action when pressed that feature alone Apple would make 1000 dollar pro-line feature
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 No kidding, if Apple made and sold true split ergonomic hotswappable boards, it would cost two grand easy. But the whole concept is so non-Apple anyway that we never have to worry about that. What, let the user swap out parts? You mean they can program their own keys? Pfffft.
@@leerv. if y someone showed them projects like Alpakka controller they would blow a gasket processing it
that controllers built to be modified an has full gyro control hehe
no one? really?? LiLY 58...
Lily58 looks very similar to other 4x6 keyboards such as the Sofle, seems like a solid pick as well.
I chose to try a Sofle v1 between these two to try the extra knobs it offers. I prefer it to the Voyager because it has more thumb keys - though they could be positioned better (further away from the main keys). Sofle v2 is better in that regard.
All of them are nice small keyboards, easy to transport / for on-the-go. For stationary keyboards I prefer sculpted ones (BastardKB Charybdis > Kinesis 360 non-Pro > Glove80 rev2)
Started with a Lily58 and thought i could use it and a Sofle, what i bad idea.
Switched then to Sofle(s) just to have the same exakt layourt everywhere.
Also i have to mention i was very happy to find out that splitkb hat prebuilt vial firmware for both (ordered my PCBs and some parts there)