Fun fact: meaties in Third Strike don't work they way they "should". Makoto's st.MP has 10 active frames, but hitting on the last possible frame only gives you like +2 or +3 extra frames, not the +9 that you would predict. So unlike SF4, hitboxes later in their active frames would actually do less hitstun. Very odd, but it also allowed 3s designers to allow moves to be SUPER easy to meaty, without it giving massive frame advantage.
A bit unrelated but that reminds me of when I was researching Dudley’s frame data and found how his crouching hit advantage can sometimes be the same as standing hit advantage, or even worse. Like his f.MP and f.HP being negative on crouch hit compared to stand hit. Made me think if it was just a quirk of the engine or if they intentionally designed each move that way. Then it made me wonder what the possible reasoning was if that was the case.
this is something i think about when i theorycraft my own fighting game concept. meaties are something i love, but the impact they can have on move safety and especially combo routes can be ... dramatic, to say the least. especially when you compare single hit meaties to multihit meaties, because unless you're in an engine that has consistency issues with multihits, the latter will rarely see a major variation in frame advantage outside of weird cases where the final hit is basically a single hit meaty anyway. besides, the ramifications of hitstun being consistent throughout the entirety of a move affect moves that are kinda just skin and bone, too - a poke that's supposed to fairly safe on hit but not particularly good at claiming momentum can turn into a noncommittal yet monstrous combo starter just by your opponent walking or hitbox shifting into it on the third active frame 'course, it's interesting to think about how this doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing, anyway. a meaty could easily have the same hitstun over the first few frames, then kick into scaling hitstun for the rest so that it _does_ open some extra combo routes upon hitting meaty without worrying about a -2 move suddenly becoming +7
@@hi-i-am-atan Smash Bros is a game that sees a fair amount of this kind of effect, due to how many slides and other meaty moves shift to a "sour" hitbox after a short moment, which have worse damage/knockback/hitstun values, alongside hit range and such being an influence
@@syrelian while technically true, because hitstun is not set on the hitbox but is instead calculated based on the knockback force which itself is based on the target's percentage, the damage dealt, and the move's knockback values, and there are a _lot_ sour sports where the difference is only like 1% less damage at most ... it's significant to far fewer moves than you might think in fact, i'm pretty sure the vast majority of sweetspots are beneficial due to having more lenient and disjointed hitboxes, with the high payoff ones like falcon's knee and marth's tipper being the exceptions
I love it when people whiff normals as a means to help time things like meaties, I think it's genuinely cute and smart. It's effectively a mnemonic device and I think that's cool as hell.
Not really a mnemonic device though, that's to remember stuff, frame kills are a setup, just a thing that will get you the same result every time if you did it right.
I feel like it is a missed opportunity to not bring up landing a meaty hit during a combo, which is one of the coolest ideas in fighting games for me. Figuring out how to extend a combo by getting a move to hit much later in the middle of it has to involve a bonkers amount of trial and error, understanding of the game and characters, and creativity. Sako's Evil Ryu bnb on Rufus is one such example if we're to stay on SF4. Tech like this is always impressive because it is once again pushing the game even further and gets people to see what else is possible.
@@TheoryFighter and some other good examples of this in SF4 (if you want some more examples) are: Dudley Vs Fei Long. After f.MK s.MP hits 1 frame late so on Fei Long Dudley can do f.MK, s.MP, f.MP, c.LP, s.HK Makoto Vs Viper. After dash punch fadc you can cause Makoto’s jab to hit meaty. s.HPxxDash punch FADC, s.LP, s.MP, s.LP (hits late), s.HP Alternatively you can link Makoto’s U1 after the jab if you want, here’s the Makoto ones (sorry about the bad quality): th-cam.com/video/2bwFrYwlV8k/w-d-xo.html
Yun's overhead is a very 3s design. What I mean by this is that in that game many overheads are safe, + on block/hit or comboable depending on how meaty they are and if the opponent is actually crouching. Thing is, the more meaty they are, the more frames you are giving to your opponent to be able to react, potentially with a parry. You can even use this to bait parries. Hugo's claps are incredibly + on block and key to his pressure game, with his super 1 you can cancel the clap on parry to his 720 which catches the opponent within the parry freeze and they can't escape. With other characters you can do something similar with obvious hit to be parried, cancelled into something invincible to bait a counterattack.
@@GinkgoPete they should've made Genei Jin the biggest bar in third strike. Maybe fill the entire length of the screen. And drain just as fast as usual.
there is though. Donkey kick can be spaced to hit on its later active frames and make it safe between the slightly better frame advange and distance. extremely hard to pull of in a real match but its still there. There is a meaty in footsies
Rose slides lol. There's alot of moves that when spaced can end up with plus frames. Not talking about being safe from pushback/spacing. Even in some combos u can make attacks meaty to create some crazy links.
When you mentioned moves that are intended to be good as meaties, my very first thought was Potemkin's Garuda Impact in Strive. I love that move because it's a perfect example of a move that looks completely useless when you're a total beginner, but once you start getting a little better at the game you realize just how insane it actually is.
being +29 with a 28 frame startup move is wild in the context of a modern game, especially with that chip. you get a true block string that does the damage of one garuda on hit and leaves you +19 anyway
Meaty is by far one of the best fighting game mechanics. Even sub-genres of fighting games like 3D fighters and platform fighters have variations of it. You can meaty a tech up by simply using a move with tracking and enough active frames in 3D fighters. In platform ones, weaker attacks force your fighter to stand up. This allows for any follow up.
Indeed! But to me, the core of a meaty is the ability to hit an intangible opponent on their first vulnerable frame. I wouldn't really consider jab resets to be a meaty variation, it's more akin to OTGs What I call "strict meaties" do not usually exist in platform fighters, because they typically have vulnerability before actionability, rather than at the same time. This difference is subtle, it would be unbelievably broken in traditional 2D fighters. Additionally, gaining bonus frames from a meaty in a platform fighter tends not to be as advantageous, due to knockback physics. Nonetheless, moves with high active frames can make for extremely easy/safe ways to meaty someone's defensive option. Developers could even use this knowledge in ways that are unique to platform fighters. For example, ledge attacks could be vulnerable the frame before the attack comes out so they lose to meaties. That sort of idea could be an integral part of a game's ledge options
@@NinjaLobsterStudios A better analogy would have been using meaties against air dodges. Those function just like wake ups and are punished in almost the same way.
Soul Calibur is nasty with this kind of tech, given the range of mobility and offense options you have on wakeup. You can roll to the left or right (or back or whatever) and risk getting spanked by something seriously heavy. Sometimes it resorted to just holding Guard and possibly eating the throw setup. Those games are so dense.
What came to my mind was how in Smash Melee you can use weak hits of aerials to avoid ASDI down (ie using a low knockback move ends up having more hitstun) of to extend combos (both because of less knockback and because of less endlag). But yeah, I guess meaties don't exist in platform fighters really; actionability and vulnerability are kind of separated.
I love that, from a person who isn't neck deep in fighting games, I can just throw on any of your videos to learn something, or experience your passion for a specific topic. Furthermore, there's a consistent energy across your videos that just never gets old, I'm not exactly sure what it is but I'd hazard a guess that it's the doom metal and tone of voice that makes the videos feel like a genuine pocket of personal intrigue. I'm always excited to see your videos in my notifications or even in the recommended tab, you've made my casual enjoyment for fighting games all the better and given me plenty of factoids of knowledge I wouldn't have journeyed to find myself.
I'm pretty sure that in an old patch of Tough Love Arena, meaties didn't give extra frame advantage because of how the game is programmed (moves have onHit values instead of hitstun values), but that was long patched
Wasn't expecting someone else to point that one out lol. Was a very strange bit of design, glad it's gone because even if TLA is meant to be the easiest possible thing to pick up and play and not have any confusing mechanics, I feel like the absence of meaties just makes a fighting game more confusing.
@@layarteBdnAevoL why would it make fighting games more confusing? When I just scratch an enemy with an attack its weaker in real live as well. Also why would it be less confusing when yiu sometimes can combo of an ability and sometimes you cant?
@@tigriscallidus4477 Well, if you put it like that I can see where meaties are a confusing concept, but TLA is supposed to be a sort of intro to fighting games in general and meaties are a pretty big part of just about any fighting game out there. The way it used to work was going in complete opposition to other fighters so it would be teaching you the wrong things if you branched out. I do agree that perhaps in a realistic perspective meaties don't make too much sense but in a game feel perspective they do, they reward good timing and deeper knowledge of the game itself. I feel there are some moves that make a little bit of visual sense to use meaty as well, like a shoulder tackle where you'd want to hit some distance after your character launched themselves to gain momentum rather than point-blank. In TLA in particular, I was a little confused as to why if I hit the shoulder tackle follow-up from pork's heavy punch from a further distance and then cancelled it, I'd be at less advantage than if I did it point blank. But yeah, what I said before is opinionated and just comes from experience with how frame data and all that jazz works in fighting games from them being my favorite genre. Haven't really thought about how silly meaties are conceptually most of the time so thanks for that.
@@layarteBdnAevoL for me meaties is judt one of the many, comoletly arcane things which makes fighting games annoying to start for people who do not plan to read stuff up on the web. Even if tutorials nowadays get better so many things are unlogical if you dont know them and only hardcore people doing research on the internet will know them. Also i dont think an introfuction fighting game needs to have every mechanic. Especially not all people want to get into the competitive scene with ither fighting games. I mean I can see how all these things bring depth! But its also from my poibt of view just a huge gate keeper. (However, i get how one is annoyed when the favorite genre or game gets "dumbed down" ) Its just hard to both carry the heavy burden of the past and making it easy to get into for new players. Just to give you my perspective: I bought about 6 fighting games in my life and even liked to watch videos about fighting games (like this video) from time to time, but today was the first time I heard about this concept. I have also a ftiend eho looved dead or alive and was really good and he also foes not know about this, since well he just learned it playing by itself, never watching such videos or online tournaments.
@@tigriscallidus4477 Well, if your game has frame data (every single fighting game does for the most part, it's how typical fighting games function) it's hard to not have meaties be a part of it unless all of your attacks have one active frame (which would feel bad, every move would feel like they need to be pinpoint timed and whiff all the time in casual play). The way that TLA had it before made it feel different from every other fighting game by reversing how it works in opposition to just leaving a mechanic out. I feel like meaties could also just be one of those things that you've made use of without even realizing it's a thing. Ever stuck out a move because you noticed that it tends to tag your opponent for sticking out their own moves? Might have alot of active frames so it hits meaty quite a bit of the time. Ever use a move that has a horizontal arc in a 3d fighter because it will catch if your opponent stays still or sidesteps? Well, if they sidestep that move's technically going to hit "meaty". Ever try to strike or throw a fireball at an opponent as they are trying to wake up from a knockdown? You're attempting a meaty right there. I honestly don't feel like they're that much of a gatekeep-y thing on their own, they're just kind of how fighters tend to work in the first place. It's kind of the fault of the fighter's developers for not having said tutorials that are good enough to explain these concepts that you've probably already used and how to more effectively make use of them in the game. Now of course, you did bring up a good point earlier. I can dig a game that makes meaties more obvious of a concept by introducing a "glancing blow" system to discourage going for meaties by reducing their damage and impact and make the fighting game feel a little more grounded in reality. 'Cause yeah, a punch should probably be the most effective when it's intended to impact your opponent instead of a few frames after the punch reaches it's climax.
I used to love doing Abels infinite on for example Chun Li in USF4. Where you st jab hit meaty enough through a cetain string so fMK could be linked. It was a bunch of one frame links but really satisfying to land.
Would have loved to see you bring up GBVS at the end of the video, a game that is very much built with safejab meaties in mind by the developers. Good shit.
Good to see some fellow Axl meaty 6H enthusiasts 🤝 I unfortunately only have enough brain cells to pull it off in Strive but I totally understand the high (heh get it) nevertheless
They're pretty similar moves across both games. I'm sure they've moved the numbers around in subsequent patches, but I remember checking the frame data and (for the most part) most characters kept their frame data almost intact. The active frames for 6HS are the same in both games; Xrd Axl has +1 on block and has around 4 frames faster startup. Strive Axl has longer startup and recovery. 6HS is overall a shittier move in Strive. Don't know why they nerfed oit. Axl has never been a top tier character, and 6H was never a power button that raped. It was always a cheeky move that you could easily react to. I guess with the elimination of almost every universal defensive mechanic they decided that they needed to gut it a little.
@@WHATISUTUBE in general they nerfed most grounded overheads, both directly and in the context of characters kits, may 6k went from +1 to -2 which was a direct nerf. But by removing hoop and changing beach ball they removed the main ways to combo off it meterless, which is a contextual nerf.
Damn I played fighters for like 5 years now and I never even thought about using meaties as a way to gain extra frames, this video made me learn something really interesting!
@@Just.Kidding I remember when I made that comment back then, I was mid gold I learned a lot and still have a long road ahead . It's been fun learning the game and others as well
Curiously enough, in platform fighters there is tech chases, which are if OTG were together with meaties. It is really cool because you either have to react to the option(watch wizzrobe) read the option or cover most of them
In season 2 of GBVS they actually slowed down all the fastest frame 7 reversals to hit on frame 9 instead. Since meterless reversals are very prevalent and easily accessible in that game, the developers made sure that lights could safe meaty them across almost the entire cast.
When did you turn into Leon Massey? Like I almost feel like I'm watching his video right now. I WAS JOKING ABOUT YOU TWO BEING THE SAME PERSON BUT TIME TRAVELLED
When I first started talking to FGC members outside of my locals I had a hard time understanding meatys because within my group the term was more or less a combo connector rather than a oki setup (example: Sol c.S was consider a meaty since you could combo off of it)
For me personally, anytime I’m motivated to play a fighting game I’m always trying to explore what is possible and push my own personal skill further and further. For an example when Goldlewis came out in guilty gear strive I had labbed out the combo into oki situation that every Goldlewis uses now in the first week(not to say that I invented it or whatever just saying I naturally found it on my own with a reason and purpose and it turned out to be the thing everyone uses now) Being a “tech monster” or “lab rat” just comes with being a student of fighting games with a passion for learning
Study and execution practice, while being a lab rat doesn't necessarily require practical experience(though it helps a lot to know what stuff is even useful vs Just Cool As Fuck), it does require good execution, and then a lot of it is reading and practicing with frame data, cancels, and just seeing if A connects to B, and if C can be a good okizeme tool(the primary place meaties see their value) Sometimes this means trying stuff that sounds dogshit stupid, like using EX Kicks multiple times in one combo like Oro's newer combos do, and realizing it works In the end its about a drive to learn, an open mind to what moves can do, and the skill to test your hypothesis, its a science to make a combo, its an art to use it
It used to be that people would just experiment with characters and then show off the tech at locals or regional tourneys. Or at the arcades. Whichever way you did it, the tech got out there and people either asked you after the match, or realized it during. Nowadays people still lab the tech, but it gets out into the public much quicker via the internet. People post vids on twitter, and given that twitter has a large userbase in Japan (second largest FGC market), it really helps to bring the tech out much sooner. But even without twitter there are mssage boards and the like.
The super metroid speedrun has a meaty at the start of the Ridley boss fight. You build up a charge shot, jump above where Ridley spawns in, release it so that the charge shot hits him as his hurtbox becomes active and you can start charging your next shot sooner.
The definition at the start of the video is wrong tho. Meaties are attacks that don’t hit on the first active frame possible. You can space something to be a meaty (like UOH in 3S for instance), it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with getting up.
You are right, the original definition of meaty was just any move hitting later in it's active frames. But now it generally means moves hitting on wakeup since that is the most common way to have a normal hit meaty and the definition has kinda shifted.
You could give every move only one frame of active frames, and this mechanic would still technically exist; a frame perfect meaty would beat any reversal normal.
Tough Love Arena actually did NOT have meaty normals in it's early stages. They would recover on the same frame no matter what frame you hit the normal on. It was a very strange thing to meaty someone in that game, they blocked and you were still like -2 even though you hit them on the 5th active frame or whatever.
8:10 There is at least one way you could remove this strategy. If a move lost a frame of hit/blockstun for every frame that it stays out before hitting, then its frame advantage would always be the same. You'll also always get the same frame advantage if you trigger the recovery animation the moment the move hits, so that the attacker and defender are both locked in an animation for a fixed amount of time. That's how Blanka Balls work, I think.
Well... a fighting game designer that REALLY wanted to eliminate meaty could potentially do so... but only viably in a 3D fighting game. Basically, it would involve the game examining how a hit happens, rather than simply being Howie Mandel hosting Hit or No Hit. A scrape on getup would be different than a side roll causing the hit to go straight into the body. Scrape might do a little hitstun, and otherwise almost look like a whiff. But the bad roll might instead crumple or launch for a combo opportunity. It's also safe to assume that such a game would have different animations for hit and miss: like in real life, a kick that goes into the center of the opponent is likely not going to continue as if no resistance. Not unless it's a launcher that sends the victim pretty far in some direction. As such, meaty hits would rarely result in anything better than chip and return to neutral. Unless you're doing top-tier predictions, you'd actually want to hit with earlier active frames, into the main body and with full force. Note: I'm not saying that this would make for a good fighting game. But I'm also not saying that it wouldn't. We can't know until someone does the concept well. (And unfortunately, in the modern gaming industry, such an experiment would be considered far too risky to ever try.)
I think something that's cool is that whiffing attacks to time a meaty kinda exists in other non-FGs and in speedrunning. Of course they're not getting the timing for deadlier oki, but you might see something like someone doing a full jump twice after a certain action to get the timing to do something else immediately. I really wish I had a better, speedrunning related example for this, but I'll use a sort of weird one of my own. In Sonic Advance, the final has you fight Dr. Eggman in one of his machine. He can't be damaged until he pops out of his machine to attack you, giving you a chance to strike back, but the timing is kinda weird. I was struggling with the boss until I remembered this and tried doing a sorta meaty set-up. I did three or four full jumps in front of him from when he went invincible in his pod, and if I jump on him at the one after, it should damage him as he'll emerge the moment I'd make contact. It didn't really work out too well cause I think he has variable wake-up times, but still it worked a few times which was super cool to me. I'm gonna update this with a cool speedrunning example if I can remember it, because I know for a fact this exists in speedrunning but I can't think of an example atm.
in mike tyson's punchout for the nes and punchout will, speedruners often use buffering where, you whif specific attacks to perfectly time counter punch the opponents move
i learned how to do this from soul calibur 2 lol. i switched games and realized i couldnt hit people OTG in the same way so i looked for ways to hit people on get up cause "if i keep hitting them they cant fight back". needless to say i wasnt well liked among my friends. i guess cackling while i oki'd them all day didnt help. =p
8:18 what about in 3D fighting games? Where because moves only got 1 active frame (for the most part) and they have freeform wake-up timings meaties are not a thing there
Meaties are a thing in 3D fighting games, 3D games still have moves with multiple active frames and wakeups still have I-frames. They’re just rare as most moves only have one active frame and they get superseded by other mechanics, if you know someone’s going to tech roll why go for a meaty when you can go for a tech trap instead. Not to mention, a lot of the useful meaties in games like Tekken don’t do anything special on hit, they’re almost exclusively used for better frame data on block (like Lee doing a spaced slide to make it safe on block in Tekken 8).
is robobobr still active? cuz as an xrd axl with a burning love for that Yahoo life i wanna see his setups, like what rensen distances he converts into that meaty.
"..but *my* exception is meaty normals." Bruv. This is such good writing I had to stop and comment but I can't even comment on it because it's such an immaculate thesis statement. Talk about meaty stuffing the wakeup. Now that's what I call filmmaking.
0:54 "Any technique that limits your opponents options is obviously a strong thing to do" OR you could be DNF Duel and reward the opponent by meatying them, giving them access to white life/baroque cancel, AND increasing their max meter if you pass a certain health gate. Since all your mixups tools suck, the only way you're doing anything good is if the meaty can lead to a guard break, which you need a lot of meter for. What a mechanical mess lmao.
It's only MS moves which give white health on block, others are from being hit, which is not too different to games giving some opponent meter when they're hit. It's a kind of Under Night idea of rewarding good defense by granting you the ability to use Conversion, it's a cool defense reward. However, your good offense is rewarded to, as MS moves hitting will drain their white health. Sounds more like you weren't too good if you're asking for this to be "fixed." Or you're simply judging before even playing much, but mechanically, it's way more sound compared to some other popular anime games. Being rewarded for good defense as well as being rewarded for good offense is fun.
@@Wiziliz Yeah I think that’s what they were going for. tbh I think if they remove the block button they can definitely get closer. I found that, despite being bad at defence in other games, I never got opened up on pressure because I could just hold the block button and react to throws. I think if they remove the block button, a lot of characters could do what they were seemingly intended to do. Poor Ghostblade and his left/right mix, it feels like he’s in the wrong game right now. If there’s no block button, characters will actually be able to use their several seconds of plus frames to do stuff, and you would actually be rewarded for good offence while keeping the reward for good defence. From there it’s just a matter of cleaning up some stuff like Critical/Brutal hits, status effects, and awakening, and they might have something really fun in the long term on their hands.
In sf alpha3 i found something pretty busted. As Ryu or Ken (akuma dosen't count on this one), take your oponnent to the corner and shoryuken, then shoryuken a second time and a third time. Because of when you recover with the second DP when you do the third you'll get a late hit, giving you the possibilitiy to combo into another DP for massive meterless damage Observations: the three DPs HAVE to be light, strong and medium won't work. Akuma dosen't count because he can naturaly combo his light dp into any other version, without using meaty shoryu
After playing MBAACC for a while I kind of thought about the purpose of input buffers, since the game has 0 for most cases, maybe that's worth a video?
an interesting mechanic are moves with fixed frame advantage, am I the only that really doesnt like that most of the time ? I feel it limits a moves' potential to be good while making it easier to no be as bad if done too close or they keep being bad no matter the range which is imo the worse kind. I think one moves like that is good is gustav buster from az and I feel he needs it, it's a +1 forward moving special that moves him forward a lot but you can Instant Block it to scare him away or punish his autopilot, however most fighting games dont have a IB mechanic so you dont have that kind of interaction
If you go by the definition that a meaty is a a move that connects on the first frame a character is actionable after their wake-up than not really, (at the very least they’re not worth going for) but by the original definition (which is a move that connects after the first active frame) Tekken absolutely has meaties, they’re just not very useful or common. Almost every character in Tekken has a generic WR+3 that can hit meaty, going from +5 to +9 , or for a more extreme example, Paul’s Trooper Roll which goes from +2 to +9.
Dumb question. Is this why Ryu had to have patches for linking c.mk +fb. It was 0 on block and slowed downed fb from previous game or sum? Just seems so weird there was this initial difference between installments.
....can you even Meaty in Hajime No Ippo? Because it's a boxing style fighting game, it obeys the Dempsey Rule, where fighters will restart in their corners after each knockdown. I guess you could after a badly timed dodge then.
I'm not familiar with the game. But technically, if there are moves with more than 1 active frame, then yes, there are most likely meaties. TheoryFighter is using a more modern and narrow definition of meaty, which is that they only exist in knockdown situations. This is a common mistake because knockdown situations are the most common scenario where they're found. But the broader definition of meaty is just a situation in which an attack doesn't connect with its first active frames, but with its last, which has the effect of basically speeding up the recovery. If a neutral poke has a lot of active frames and also moves your character forward, it's often said that you can "space it to make it safe/neutral/plus on hit/block". That is an instance of meaty, as you're hitting your opponent with the latter part of the move's active frames.
@@chazaqiel2319 So dodges make characters intangible for a set amount of frames. The fastest characters can keep their i frames during even the fastest spammy attacks. However, combos are set- the only thing you can cancel into is a super attack and you can do that on any frame of a normal attack, making meaties as a concept silly.
You can indeed throw meaties! Characters will become stunned if they take too many heavy punches in a row. Of course, you already know this is hard to trigger, because usually, fighters will be knocked down when they take that many punches in a row, and being stunned means they can't use their special defenses like "stay standing". But there's one fighter who can trigger stuns at will- Eiji Date. This stun state works as a worse than knocked down state, because the character is vulnerable the entire duration of the stun. It's like a traditional stun meter at that point. And I don't think you can mash out of it either. There's something else that makes meaty attacks a bit silly- they have to do something other than just pure damage to be worth doing, or at least, they need to do so much damage that they knock down on hit, because yellow damage recovers at all times. But Date doesn't have anything quite like that. The two fighters that do, Ippo and Shigeta, well, Ippo knocks down with his Dempsey Roll special, and Shigeta steals spirit with his taunt. But they can't stun the opponent on cue, either! Both of them have to work for it. Simply put, I don't think this game was made for meaties.
i will say though that its possible for a game to make moves so that making them meaty will give the same frame advantage regardless of how late you hit in the active frames. Older melty blood games had Shiki's slide(214X) have a fixed recovery at any point the move hits so it would always have the same frame advange no matter how much meaty its done Though it was only that move that got that weird property Some game would have to go out of their way and implement a similar thing in every single move to make it so meaties arent a thing....
Slide attacks usually don't work as meaty in many games because of starting recovery on hit, yeah, though that decision is usually so that hitting them super early doesn't cause you to forfeit your license to life
"Maybe you eat fish if you're in another country" Bitch I eat fish 'cuz I live on an island. Now I'm not gonna share my fish with you. Wait, are fish 50/50s in that metaphor?
Uhh... this definition of meaty is wrong? It doesn't have to be a normal, and it doesn't have to be a wake up attack. A meaty attack is an attack that connects at the last possible active frame, so you get more frame advantage. Meaty attacks often happen during wake up situations because it's easier to time and space them on your opponent's wake up, but there is no causation between wake ups and meaty attacks.
It means doing it without any sort of setup that'd make it easier. For example at 3:57 when he was talking about whiffing moves to waste time in SF4, that was a setup to make the timing of the meaty easier - whiffing those two moves after a knockdown always takes the exact same number of frames, resulting in the meaty attack at the end always hitting on the same frame every single time he does the setup. But doing a setup like that isn't _required_ to hit the meaty - he can also just time the button press to hit at the exact right time. This is generally more effective if you can pull it off since it gives your opponent less to react to, but is also generally harder because that often requires extremely precise timing.
Given the trajectory of fighting games I wouldn't be surprised if SF6 adjusts frame data so moves always have the "correct" amount of advantage afterwards. I hope that doesn't happen.
"You can't really remove this strategy, it's always going to exist in some form or another" You could actually remove meaties fairly easily if you scale how much hitstun/blockstun is inflicted relative to how long the hitbox has been out. Or by canceling a move into another animation of fixed duration on hit.
Wait by “meaties” being the only exception to your diet you mean you wake up like an idiot and consistently eat meaties? Sheesh, hope your alrite mate.
Fun fact: meaties in Third Strike don't work they way they "should". Makoto's st.MP has 10 active frames, but hitting on the last possible frame only gives you like +2 or +3 extra frames, not the +9 that you would predict. So unlike SF4, hitboxes later in their active frames would actually do less hitstun. Very odd, but it also allowed 3s designers to allow moves to be SUPER easy to meaty, without it giving massive frame advantage.
A bit unrelated but that reminds me of when I was researching Dudley’s frame data and found how his crouching hit advantage can sometimes be the same as standing hit advantage, or even worse. Like his f.MP and f.HP being negative on crouch hit compared to stand hit. Made me think if it was just a quirk of the engine or if they intentionally designed each move that way. Then it made me wonder what the possible reasoning was if that was the case.
@@Soriphen please publish your dudley research on your youtubechannel 🙏
this is something i think about when i theorycraft my own fighting game concept. meaties are something i love, but the impact they can have on move safety and especially combo routes can be ... dramatic, to say the least. especially when you compare single hit meaties to multihit meaties, because unless you're in an engine that has consistency issues with multihits, the latter will rarely see a major variation in frame advantage outside of weird cases where the final hit is basically a single hit meaty anyway. besides, the ramifications of hitstun being consistent throughout the entirety of a move affect moves that are kinda just skin and bone, too - a poke that's supposed to fairly safe on hit but not particularly good at claiming momentum can turn into a noncommittal yet monstrous combo starter just by your opponent walking or hitbox shifting into it on the third active frame
'course, it's interesting to think about how this doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing, anyway. a meaty could easily have the same hitstun over the first few frames, then kick into scaling hitstun for the rest so that it _does_ open some extra combo routes upon hitting meaty without worrying about a -2 move suddenly becoming +7
@@hi-i-am-atan Smash Bros is a game that sees a fair amount of this kind of effect, due to how many slides and other meaty moves shift to a "sour" hitbox after a short moment, which have worse damage/knockback/hitstun values, alongside hit range and such being an influence
@@syrelian while technically true, because hitstun is not set on the hitbox but is instead calculated based on the knockback force which itself is based on the target's percentage, the damage dealt, and the move's knockback values, and there are a _lot_ sour sports where the difference is only like 1% less damage at most ... it's significant to far fewer moves than you might think
in fact, i'm pretty sure the vast majority of sweetspots are beneficial due to having more lenient and disjointed hitboxes, with the high payoff ones like falcon's knee and marth's tipper being the exceptions
I love it when people whiff normals as a means to help time things like meaties, I think it's genuinely cute and smart. It's effectively a mnemonic device and I think that's cool as hell.
Not really a mnemonic device though, that's to remember stuff, frame kills are a setup, just a thing that will get you the same result every time if you did it right.
@@cryosen yeah it's not a perfect analogy by any means. I appreciate you pointing this out!
frame kills are indeed goated
reminds me of the botw speed run where you gotta do two attacks before jumping off the tower in order to time it perfectly
I think whiffing moves to build meter or time oki looks lame. But its very cool how everyone can enjoy different things for different reasons.
I feel like it is a missed opportunity to not bring up landing a meaty hit during a combo, which is one of the coolest ideas in fighting games for me. Figuring out how to extend a combo by getting a move to hit much later in the middle of it has to involve a bonkers amount of trial and error, understanding of the game and characters, and creativity. Sako's Evil Ryu bnb on Rufus is one such example if we're to stay on SF4. Tech like this is always impressive because it is once again pushing the game even further and gets people to see what else is possible.
You're totally right, it might be something i cover separately at some point
@@TheoryFighter and some other good examples of this in SF4 (if you want some more examples) are:
Dudley Vs Fei Long. After f.MK s.MP hits 1 frame late so on Fei Long Dudley can do f.MK, s.MP, f.MP, c.LP, s.HK
Makoto Vs Viper. After dash punch fadc you can cause Makoto’s jab to hit meaty. s.HPxxDash punch FADC, s.LP, s.MP, s.LP (hits late), s.HP
Alternatively you can link Makoto’s U1 after the jab if you want, here’s the Makoto ones (sorry about the bad quality): th-cam.com/video/2bwFrYwlV8k/w-d-xo.html
Just wanted to shout-out another comment further down on this video mentioning how Amaterasu’s glaive (sword) BnBs rely on this. Credit to PochoBoto.
O
@@deadfr0g arf arf arf ARF
Yun's overhead is a very 3s design. What I mean by this is that in that game many overheads are safe, + on block/hit or comboable depending on how meaty they are and if the opponent is actually crouching. Thing is, the more meaty they are, the more frames you are giving to your opponent to be able to react, potentially with a parry. You can even use this to bait parries. Hugo's claps are incredibly + on block and key to his pressure game, with his super 1 you can cancel the clap on parry to his 720 which catches the opponent within the parry freeze and they can't escape. With other characters you can do something similar with obvious hit to be parried, cancelled into something invincible to bait a counterattack.
Imagine if they added Yun with all his 3rd strike strengths into a game without parr... oh no oh god
@@GinkgoPete they should've made Genei Jin the biggest bar in third strike. Maybe fill the entire length of the screen. And drain just as fast as usual.
Ye
terrible opening joke.
keep doing it
THE gold one tech found in ALL fighting games is Jumping HighKick into Crounch High Kick 🙏
There isnt meaty in Footsies, this is clickbait.
there is though. Donkey kick can be spaced to hit on its later active frames and make it safe between the slightly better frame advange and distance.
extremely hard to pull of in a real match but its still there.
There is a meaty in footsies
Rose slides lol. There's alot of moves that when spaced can end up with plus frames. Not talking about being safe from pushback/spacing.
Even in some combos u can make attacks meaty to create some crazy links.
@@MokonaModokiES right
@@MokonaModokiES oh fuck, I posted misinformation on the internet. im a fraud
@@philiphunt-bull5817 Speaking of fraud detection: Virtually every hit in Divekick is a meaty with 0 frame advantage.
When you mentioned moves that are intended to be good as meaties, my very first thought was Potemkin's Garuda Impact in Strive. I love that move because it's a perfect example of a move that looks completely useless when you're a total beginner, but once you start getting a little better at the game you realize just how insane it actually is.
being +29 with a 28 frame startup move is wild in the context of a modern game, especially with that chip. you get a true block string that does the damage of one garuda on hit and leaves you +19 anyway
Man, I miss Makoto, hope she's in the next one
Meaty is by far one of the best fighting game mechanics. Even sub-genres of fighting games like 3D fighters and platform fighters have variations of it. You can meaty a tech up by simply using a move with tracking and enough active frames in 3D fighters. In platform ones, weaker attacks force your fighter to stand up. This allows for any follow up.
Indeed! But to me, the core of a meaty is the ability to hit an intangible opponent on their first vulnerable frame. I wouldn't really consider jab resets to be a meaty variation, it's more akin to OTGs
What I call "strict meaties" do not usually exist in platform fighters, because they typically have vulnerability before actionability, rather than at the same time. This difference is subtle, it would be unbelievably broken in traditional 2D fighters. Additionally, gaining bonus frames from a meaty in a platform fighter tends not to be as advantageous, due to knockback physics. Nonetheless, moves with high active frames can make for extremely easy/safe ways to meaty someone's defensive option. Developers could even use this knowledge in ways that are unique to platform fighters.
For example, ledge attacks could be vulnerable the frame before the attack comes out so they lose to meaties. That sort of idea could be an integral part of a game's ledge options
@@NinjaLobsterStudios A better analogy would have been using meaties against air dodges. Those function just like wake ups and are punished in almost the same way.
Soul Calibur is nasty with this kind of tech, given the range of mobility and offense options you have on wakeup. You can roll to the left or right (or back or whatever) and risk getting spanked by something seriously heavy. Sometimes it resorted to just holding Guard and possibly eating the throw setup. Those games are so dense.
@@NinjaLobsterStudios Very true, but you still see meaty style callouts as a form of tech chase and read
What came to my mind was how in Smash Melee you can use weak hits of aerials to avoid ASDI down (ie using a low knockback move ends up having more hitstun) of to extend combos (both because of less knockback and because of less endlag).
But yeah, I guess meaties don't exist in platform fighters really; actionability and vulnerability are kind of separated.
Well get that roll cancel video one day
One day
Nothing will ever beat doing meaty IK as Ky in missing link.
As a 48 year old meaties and just blocking helped keep my broke _____ on the sticks in the arcade era.
I was binging your video just 2 days ago
So this now even more welcome than usual.
This is an exceptional video for anyone getting into fighting games. I love it!
I love that, from a person who isn't neck deep in fighting games, I can just throw on any of your videos to learn something, or experience your passion for a specific topic. Furthermore, there's a consistent energy across your videos that just never gets old, I'm not exactly sure what it is but I'd hazard a guess that it's the doom metal and tone of voice that makes the videos feel like a genuine pocket of personal intrigue.
I'm always excited to see your videos in my notifications or even in the recommended tab, you've made my casual enjoyment for fighting games all the better and given me plenty of factoids of knowledge I wouldn't have journeyed to find myself.
Love your channel! Been watching sfv for a while and just bought champion edition and started playing. Your explanations are great. Keep it up
I'm pretty sure that in an old patch of Tough Love Arena, meaties didn't give extra frame advantage because of how the game is programmed (moves have onHit values instead of hitstun values), but that was long patched
Wasn't expecting someone else to point that one out lol. Was a very strange bit of design, glad it's gone because even if TLA is meant to be the easiest possible thing to pick up and play and not have any confusing mechanics, I feel like the absence of meaties just makes a fighting game more confusing.
@@layarteBdnAevoL why would it make fighting games more confusing? When I just scratch an enemy with an attack its weaker in real live as well.
Also why would it be less confusing when yiu sometimes can combo of an ability and sometimes you cant?
@@tigriscallidus4477 Well, if you put it like that I can see where meaties are a confusing concept, but TLA is supposed to be a sort of intro to fighting games in general and meaties are a pretty big part of just about any fighting game out there. The way it used to work was going in complete opposition to other fighters so it would be teaching you the wrong things if you branched out.
I do agree that perhaps in a realistic perspective meaties don't make too much sense but in a game feel perspective they do, they reward good timing and deeper knowledge of the game itself. I feel there are some moves that make a little bit of visual sense to use meaty as well, like a shoulder tackle where you'd want to hit some distance after your character launched themselves to gain momentum rather than point-blank. In TLA in particular, I was a little confused as to why if I hit the shoulder tackle follow-up from pork's heavy punch from a further distance and then cancelled it, I'd be at less advantage than if I did it point blank.
But yeah, what I said before is opinionated and just comes from experience with how frame data and all that jazz works in fighting games from them being my favorite genre. Haven't really thought about how silly meaties are conceptually most of the time so thanks for that.
@@layarteBdnAevoL for me meaties is judt one of the many, comoletly arcane things which makes fighting games annoying to start for people who do not plan to read stuff up on the web.
Even if tutorials nowadays get better so many things are unlogical if you dont know them and only hardcore people doing research on the internet will know them.
Also i dont think an introfuction fighting game needs to have every mechanic. Especially not all people want to get into the competitive scene with ither fighting games.
I mean I can see how all these things bring depth! But its also from my poibt of view just a huge gate keeper. (However, i get how one is annoyed when the favorite genre or game gets "dumbed down" )
Its just hard to both carry the heavy burden of the past and making it easy to get into for new players.
Just to give you my perspective: I bought about 6 fighting games in my life and even liked to watch videos about fighting games (like this video) from time to time, but today was the first time I heard about this concept.
I have also a ftiend eho looved dead or alive and was really good and he also foes not know about this, since well he just learned it playing by itself, never watching such videos or online tournaments.
@@tigriscallidus4477 Well, if your game has frame data (every single fighting game does for the most part, it's how typical fighting games function) it's hard to not have meaties be a part of it unless all of your attacks have one active frame (which would feel bad, every move would feel like they need to be pinpoint timed and whiff all the time in casual play). The way that TLA had it before made it feel different from every other fighting game by reversing how it works in opposition to just leaving a mechanic out.
I feel like meaties could also just be one of those things that you've made use of without even realizing it's a thing. Ever stuck out a move because you noticed that it tends to tag your opponent for sticking out their own moves? Might have alot of active frames so it hits meaty quite a bit of the time. Ever use a move that has a horizontal arc in a 3d fighter because it will catch if your opponent stays still or sidesteps? Well, if they sidestep that move's technically going to hit "meaty". Ever try to strike or throw a fireball at an opponent as they are trying to wake up from a knockdown? You're attempting a meaty right there. I honestly don't feel like they're that much of a gatekeep-y thing on their own, they're just kind of how fighters tend to work in the first place. It's kind of the fault of the fighter's developers for not having said tutorials that are good enough to explain these concepts that you've probably already used and how to more effectively make use of them in the game.
Now of course, you did bring up a good point earlier. I can dig a game that makes meaties more obvious of a concept by introducing a "glancing blow" system to discourage going for meaties by reducing their damage and impact and make the fighting game feel a little more grounded in reality. 'Cause yeah, a punch should probably be the most effective when it's intended to impact your opponent instead of a few frames after the punch reaches it's climax.
Really great video. Liked the flow of this one.
I used to love doing Abels infinite on for example Chun Li in USF4. Where you st jab hit meaty enough through a cetain string so fMK could be linked. It was a bunch of one frame links but really satisfying to land.
Just found your channel, love it!
Nice video! Thank you for the quality content
Great video, as always. 👍
Thanks for the vid, it was filling.
big meaty normals
Now do a video about mashing on wakeup
Instant click the second I saw theory fighter uploaded
Amaterasu from Mvc3 utilizes meaties in her glaive(sword) combos. Its quite weird considering that her sword bnbs requires meaties or it won't connect
Is this the chop infinite
The “move through the opponent” is my favorite hitbox shift
Would have loved to see you bring up GBVS at the end of the video, a game that is very much built with safejab meaties in mind by the developers.
Good shit.
Good to see some fellow Axl meaty 6H enthusiasts 🤝
I unfortunately only have enough brain cells to pull it off in Strive but I totally understand the high (heh get it) nevertheless
They're pretty similar moves across both games. I'm sure they've moved the numbers around in subsequent patches, but I remember checking the frame data and (for the most part) most characters kept their frame data almost intact.
The active frames for 6HS are the same in both games; Xrd Axl has +1 on block and has around 4 frames faster startup. Strive Axl has longer startup and recovery. 6HS is overall a shittier move in Strive. Don't know why they nerfed oit. Axl has never been a top tier character, and 6H was never a power button that raped. It was always a cheeky move that you could easily react to.
I guess with the elimination of almost every universal defensive mechanic they decided that they needed to gut it a little.
@@WHATISUTUBE in general they nerfed most grounded overheads, both directly and in the context of characters kits, may 6k went from +1 to -2 which was a direct nerf. But by removing hoop and changing beach ball they removed the main ways to combo off it meterless, which is a contextual nerf.
sorry it took so long to find you. subbed as quick as I could.
Damn I played fighters for like 5 years now and I never even thought about using meaties as a way to gain extra frames, this video made me learn something really interesting!
I learned about meaties very recently and I am slowly starting to understand the concept behind it
It's really just lingering hitboxes when you get down to it.
@@Just.Kidding I remember when I made that comment back then, I was mid gold I learned a lot and still have a long road ahead . It's been fun learning the game and others as well
Curiously enough, in platform fighters there is tech chases, which are if OTG were together with meaties. It is really cool because you either have to react to the option(watch wizzrobe) read the option or cover most of them
Axl is a rushdown character, and 6H is proof.
nice content bro
In season 2 of GBVS they actually slowed down all the fastest frame 7 reversals to hit on frame 9 instead. Since meterless reversals are very prevalent and easily accessible in that game, the developers made sure that lights could safe meaty them across almost the entire cast.
That opening knocked the wind out of me.
Where do you get the stoner/doom metal for your music? Shit's dope and it sets you apart from other channels in a way that I really enjoy.
When did you turn into Leon Massey? Like I almost feel like I'm watching his video right now. I WAS JOKING ABOUT YOU TWO BEING THE SAME PERSON BUT TIME TRAVELLED
When I first started talking to FGC members outside of my locals I had a hard time understanding meatys because within my group the term was more or less a combo connector rather than a oki setup (example: Sol c.S was consider a meaty since you could combo off of it)
1st time I learned what meaty was , was in SF3 3rd Strike, with the universal overhead confirms
fun fact: Tekken 7 King has meaty setups for his armoured tackle and WS+1+2 that makes them safe on block
How do you become a tech monster, tho? Like, the people who CREATE the combos everyone uses?
For me personally, anytime I’m motivated to play a fighting game I’m always trying to explore what is possible and push my own personal skill further and further. For an example when Goldlewis came out in guilty gear strive I had labbed out the combo into oki situation that every Goldlewis uses now in the first week(not to say that I invented it or whatever just saying I naturally found it on my own with a reason and purpose and it turned out to be the thing everyone uses now)
Being a “tech monster” or “lab rat” just comes with being a student of fighting games with a passion for learning
Study and execution practice, while being a lab rat doesn't necessarily require practical experience(though it helps a lot to know what stuff is even useful vs Just Cool As Fuck), it does require good execution, and then a lot of it is reading and practicing with frame data, cancels, and just seeing if A connects to B, and if C can be a good okizeme tool(the primary place meaties see their value)
Sometimes this means trying stuff that sounds dogshit stupid, like using EX Kicks multiple times in one combo like Oro's newer combos do, and realizing it works
In the end its about a drive to learn, an open mind to what moves can do, and the skill to test your hypothesis, its a science to make a combo, its an art to use it
It used to be that people would just experiment with characters and then show off the tech at locals or regional tourneys. Or at the arcades. Whichever way you did it, the tech got out there and people either asked you after the match, or realized it during.
Nowadays people still lab the tech, but it gets out into the public much quicker via the internet. People post vids on twitter, and given that twitter has a large userbase in Japan (second largest FGC market), it really helps to bring the tech out much sooner. But even without twitter there are mssage boards and the like.
The super metroid speedrun has a meaty at the start of the Ridley boss fight. You build up a charge shot, jump above where Ridley spawns in, release it so that the charge shot hits him as his hurtbox becomes active and you can start charging your next shot sooner.
Loved the video. Mortal Kombat vídeo when?
Meaty Normals overlap on the last 2f not on only 1f as stated at 0.35sec.
The definition at the start of the video is wrong tho. Meaties are attacks that don’t hit on the first active frame possible. You can space something to be a meaty (like UOH in 3S for instance), it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with getting up.
You are right, the original definition of meaty was just any move hitting later in it's active frames. But now it generally means moves hitting on wakeup since that is the most common way to have a normal hit meaty and the definition has kinda shifted.
You could give every move only one frame of active frames, and this mechanic would still technically exist; a frame perfect meaty would beat any reversal normal.
Ky Kiske: Who tf cares about timing meaties, Charged Stun Edge go brrrrrrr
6 months from now someone will release a fighting game that surrounds with with an ivan ooze shield on wakeup specifically to make the title incorrect
*Sol Players:* "You guys have to jump through all those hoops just to get frame advantage?"
No meaties in Tekken, only nasty oki situations
Tough Love Arena actually did NOT have meaty normals in it's early stages. They would recover on the same frame no matter what frame you hit the normal on. It was a very strange thing to meaty someone in that game, they blocked and you were still like -2 even though you hit them on the 5th active frame or whatever.
8:10 There is at least one way you could remove this strategy. If a move lost a frame of hit/blockstun for every frame that it stays out before hitting, then its frame advantage would always be the same. You'll also always get the same frame advantage if you trigger the recovery animation the moment the move hits, so that the attacker and defender are both locked in an animation for a fixed amount of time. That's how Blanka Balls work, I think.
even in that case it would be stronger against slow invincible reversals and invincible backdashes
Well... a fighting game designer that REALLY wanted to eliminate meaty could potentially do so... but only viably in a 3D fighting game. Basically, it would involve the game examining how a hit happens, rather than simply being Howie Mandel hosting Hit or No Hit.
A scrape on getup would be different than a side roll causing the hit to go straight into the body. Scrape might do a little hitstun, and otherwise almost look like a whiff. But the bad roll might instead crumple or launch for a combo opportunity.
It's also safe to assume that such a game would have different animations for hit and miss: like in real life, a kick that goes into the center of the opponent is likely not going to continue as if no resistance. Not unless it's a launcher that sends the victim pretty far in some direction.
As such, meaty hits would rarely result in anything better than chip and return to neutral. Unless you're doing top-tier predictions, you'd actually want to hit with earlier active frames, into the main body and with full force.
Note: I'm not saying that this would make for a good fighting game. But I'm also not saying that it wouldn't. We can't know until someone does the concept well. (And unfortunately, in the modern gaming industry, such an experiment would be considered far too risky to ever try.)
I think something that's cool is that whiffing attacks to time a meaty kinda exists in other non-FGs and in speedrunning. Of course they're not getting the timing for deadlier oki, but you might see something like someone doing a full jump twice after a certain action to get the timing to do something else immediately.
I really wish I had a better, speedrunning related example for this, but I'll use a sort of weird one of my own. In Sonic Advance, the final has you fight Dr. Eggman in one of his machine. He can't be damaged until he pops out of his machine to attack you, giving you a chance to strike back, but the timing is kinda weird. I was struggling with the boss until I remembered this and tried doing a sorta meaty set-up. I did three or four full jumps in front of him from when he went invincible in his pod, and if I jump on him at the one after, it should damage him as he'll emerge the moment I'd make contact.
It didn't really work out too well cause I think he has variable wake-up times, but still it worked a few times which was super cool to me.
I'm gonna update this with a cool speedrunning example if I can remember it, because I know for a fact this exists in speedrunning but I can't think of an example atm.
in mike tyson's punchout for the nes and punchout will, speedruners often use buffering where, you whif specific attacks to perfectly time counter punch the opponents move
@@16bitdude36does the Punch Out 2-Player count as a fighting game
i learned how to do this from soul calibur 2 lol. i switched games and realized i couldnt hit people OTG in the same way so i looked for ways to hit people on get up cause "if i keep hitting them they cant fight back".
needless to say i wasnt well liked among my friends. i guess cackling while i oki'd them all day didnt help. =p
8:18 what about in 3D fighting games? Where because moves only got 1 active frame (for the most part) and they have freeform wake-up timings meaties are not a thing there
Meaties are a thing in 3D fighting games, 3D games still have moves with multiple active frames and wakeups still have I-frames. They’re just rare as most moves only have one active frame and they get superseded by other mechanics, if you know someone’s going to tech roll why go for a meaty when you can go for a tech trap instead. Not to mention, a lot of the useful meaties in games like Tekken don’t do anything special on hit, they’re almost exclusively used for better frame data on block (like Lee doing a spaced slide to make it safe on block in Tekken 8).
4:11 tryharding is fun dude don't let people put you down
is robobobr still active? cuz as an xrd axl with a burning love for that Yahoo life i wanna see his setups, like what rensen distances he converts into that meaty.
"..but *my* exception is meaty normals."
Bruv. This is such good writing I had to stop and comment but I can't even comment on it because it's such an immaculate thesis statement. Talk about meaty stuffing the wakeup. Now that's what I call filmmaking.
P.S. play some Ahab! Something off 'Call of the Wretched Sea'
0:54 "Any technique that limits your opponents options is obviously a strong thing to do" OR you could be DNF Duel and reward the opponent by meatying them, giving them access to white life/baroque cancel, AND increasing their max meter if you pass a certain health gate. Since all your mixups tools suck, the only way you're doing anything good is if the meaty can lead to a guard break, which you need a lot of meter for. What a mechanical mess lmao.
We have Roman Cancel, Baroque Cancel
When's Cubist Cancel, or Neo-realist Cancel
wait till the game comes out.
@@absoul112 yeah hopefully it’s fixed for release. They have a lot to fix but I think it’s doable.
It's only MS moves which give white health on block, others are from being hit, which is not too different to games giving some opponent meter when they're hit. It's a kind of Under Night idea of rewarding good defense by granting you the ability to use Conversion, it's a cool defense reward. However, your good offense is rewarded to, as MS moves hitting will drain their white health. Sounds more like you weren't too good if you're asking for this to be "fixed." Or you're simply judging before even playing much, but mechanically, it's way more sound compared to some other popular anime games.
Being rewarded for good defense as well as being rewarded for good offense is fun.
@@Wiziliz Yeah I think that’s what they were going for. tbh I think if they remove the block button they can definitely get closer. I found that, despite being bad at defence in other games, I never got opened up on pressure because I could just hold the block button and react to throws. I think if they remove the block button, a lot of characters could do what they were seemingly intended to do. Poor Ghostblade and his left/right mix, it feels like he’s in the wrong game right now. If there’s no block button, characters will actually be able to use their several seconds of plus frames to do stuff, and you would actually be rewarded for good offence while keeping the reward for good defence. From there it’s just a matter of cleaning up some stuff like Critical/Brutal hits, status effects, and awakening, and they might have something really fun in the long term on their hands.
ok i almost fell asleep at 3rd minute
Bro I still don’t know how to do the free style thing in alpha. Somebody mind telling me?
Where in a game like MBTL it’s impossible to do this
In sf alpha3 i found something pretty busted.
As Ryu or Ken (akuma dosen't count on this one), take your oponnent to the corner and shoryuken, then shoryuken a second time and a third time.
Because of when you recover with the second DP when you do the third you'll get a late hit, giving you the possibilitiy to combo into another DP for massive meterless damage
Observations: the three DPs HAVE to be light, strong and medium won't work.
Akuma dosen't count because he can naturaly combo his light dp into any other version, without using meaty shoryu
After playing MBAACC for a while I kind of thought about the purpose of input buffers, since the game has 0 for most cases, maybe that's worth a video?
an interesting mechanic are moves with fixed frame advantage, am I the only that really doesnt like that most of the time ? I feel it limits a moves' potential to be good while making it easier to no be as bad if done too close or they keep being bad no matter the range which is imo the worse kind. I think one moves like that is good is gustav buster from az and I feel he needs it, it's a +1 forward moving special that moves him forward a lot but you can Instant Block it to scare him away or punish his autopilot, however most fighting games dont have a IB mechanic so you dont have that kind of interaction
Tekken has no meaty. They just make you unable to do anything except choose to block standing or crouch blocking for some 20 frames.
If you go by the definition that a meaty is a a move that connects on the first frame a character is actionable after their wake-up than not really, (at the very least they’re not worth going for) but by the original definition (which is a move that connects after the first active frame) Tekken absolutely has meaties, they’re just not very useful or common. Almost every character in Tekken has a generic WR+3 that can hit meaty, going from +5 to +9 , or for a more extreme example, Paul’s Trooper Roll which goes from +2 to +9.
Its funny how meatys are almost built into platform fighters (late areials) but are a little more advanced in traditional fighters
@TheoryFighter what’s the bgm in this video kind sir?
Oh, ALL you say? What about Dive Kick?
Now I know meaty
Dumb question. Is this why Ryu had to have patches for linking c.mk +fb. It was 0 on block and slowed downed fb from previous game or sum? Just seems so weird there was this initial difference between installments.
Is there any way to hard punish meaties?
this channel repeatedly teaches me how VERY LITTLE i knew about XRD
#imtrash
What's that heavy doom metal in the background?
what's the background song
Wait
Meaties are Your exception?
Aren't you making Other people eat Meaties?
This voice sounds so similar to mojaxx from DJcityTV.
....can you even Meaty in Hajime No Ippo? Because it's a boxing style fighting game, it obeys the Dempsey Rule, where fighters will restart in their corners after each knockdown. I guess you could after a badly timed dodge then.
I'm not familiar with the game. But technically, if there are moves with more than 1 active frame, then yes, there are most likely meaties. TheoryFighter is using a more modern and narrow definition of meaty, which is that they only exist in knockdown situations. This is a common mistake because knockdown situations are the most common scenario where they're found. But the broader definition of meaty is just a situation in which an attack doesn't connect with its first active frames, but with its last, which has the effect of basically speeding up the recovery. If a neutral poke has a lot of active frames and also moves your character forward, it's often said that you can "space it to make it safe/neutral/plus on hit/block". That is an instance of meaty, as you're hitting your opponent with the latter part of the move's active frames.
@@chazaqiel2319 So dodges make characters intangible for a set amount of frames. The fastest characters can keep their i frames during even the fastest spammy attacks. However, combos are set- the only thing you can cancel into is a super attack and you can do that on any frame of a normal attack, making meaties as a concept silly.
You can indeed throw meaties! Characters will become stunned if they take too many heavy punches in a row. Of course, you already know this is hard to trigger, because usually, fighters will be knocked down when they take that many punches in a row, and being stunned means they can't use their special defenses like "stay standing". But there's one fighter who can trigger stuns at will- Eiji Date. This stun state works as a worse than knocked down state, because the character is vulnerable the entire duration of the stun. It's like a traditional stun meter at that point. And I don't think you can mash out of it either.
There's something else that makes meaty attacks a bit silly- they have to do something other than just pure damage to be worth doing, or at least, they need to do so much damage that they knock down on hit, because yellow damage recovers at all times. But Date doesn't have anything quite like that. The two fighters that do, Ippo and Shigeta, well, Ippo knocks down with his Dempsey Roll special, and Shigeta steals spirit with his taunt. But they can't stun the opponent on cue, either! Both of them have to work for it. Simply put, I don't think this game was made for meaties.
Using ryus C.M kick as the meaty example to C.L kick was so funny because it's such a bad combo haha
i will say though that its possible for a game to make moves so that making them meaty will give the same frame advantage regardless of how late you hit in the active frames.
Older melty blood games had Shiki's slide(214X) have a fixed recovery at any point the move hits so it would always have the same frame advange no matter how much meaty its done
Though it was only that move that got that weird property
Some game would have to go out of their way and implement a similar thing in every single move to make it so meaties arent a thing....
Slide attacks usually don't work as meaty in many games because of starting recovery on hit, yeah, though that decision is usually so that hitting them super early doesn't cause you to forfeit your license to life
@@syrelian not really some games do have slided that can be meaty amd otherd that dont i just brought up the one im familiar with.
👍
"Maybe you eat fish if you're in another country" Bitch I eat fish 'cuz I live on an island. Now I'm not gonna share my fish with you. Wait, are fish 50/50s in that metaphor?
As a casual player, i'm not afraid to admit that I didn't understand a single word of this. Everything is too technical for me.
Tekken doesn't play well with meaties as a concept as far as I'm aware
Uhh... this definition of meaty is wrong? It doesn't have to be a normal, and it doesn't have to be a wake up attack. A meaty attack is an attack that connects at the last possible active frame, so you get more frame advantage. Meaty attacks often happen during wake up situations because it's easier to time and space them on your opponent's wake up, but there is no causation between wake ups and meaty attacks.
but is it meaty or jizzy?
Ok, thats cool and all, but why is it called a meaty?
When you say players handle tech "manually" what do you mean?
It means doing it without any sort of setup that'd make it easier. For example at 3:57 when he was talking about whiffing moves to waste time in SF4, that was a setup to make the timing of the meaty easier - whiffing those two moves after a knockdown always takes the exact same number of frames, resulting in the meaty attack at the end always hitting on the same frame every single time he does the setup.
But doing a setup like that isn't _required_ to hit the meaty - he can also just time the button press to hit at the exact right time. This is generally more effective if you can pull it off since it gives your opponent less to react to, but is also generally harder because that often requires extremely precise timing.
No, every vegetarian does NOT have exceptions, and if you do, you're not a vegetarian. The fish example is pescetarianism, but not vegetarianism.
its a joke
Given the trajectory of fighting games I wouldn't be surprised if SF6 adjusts frame data so moves always have the "correct" amount of advantage afterwards. I hope that doesn't happen.
"You can't really remove this strategy, it's always going to exist in some form or another"
You could actually remove meaties fairly easily if you scale how much hitstun/blockstun is inflicted relative to how long the hitbox has been out. Or by canceling a move into another animation of fixed duration on hit.
that doesnt remove meaties, that just makes one aspect of them weaker.
I want to eat Leo from Guilty Gear's big, meaty... normals 😳
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Hope you're a girl lol
I am sorry, but dive kick does not have this tech
I mean, couldn't you remove it by having moves with one active frame?
i mean yeah, you would also make your game feel fuckin awful to play though which is why nobody does that
Wait by “meaties” being the only exception to your diet you mean you wake up like an idiot and consistently eat meaties? Sheesh, hope your alrite mate.