Telling the Difference Between Covert Narcissism and Quiet BPD
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- Both Quiet Borderline Personality Disorder (qBPD) and covert narcissism share underlying emotional instability and difficulties in maintaining stable relationships. Both individuals often struggle with feelings of insecurity and may resort to manipulative behaviors. Additionally, they may both engage in masking behaviors to conceal their vulnerabilities, though through different means. However, key differences emerge in their expression of narcissistic traits, focus of concern, self-image, interpersonal patterns, and response to criticism. While covert narcissists subtly exhibit traits like superiority and a need for admiration, qBPD individuals typically lack overt narcissism, focusing instead on emotional dysregulation and fear of abandonment. Furthermore, qBPD individuals grapple with fluctuating self-images and intense, unstable relationships, while covert narcissists may maintain a more stable self-image and superficial connections to garner admiration. Critically, qBPD individuals tend to react emotionally to criticism, whereas covert narcissists respond defensively to protect their fragile self-esteem.
Daniel J. Fox, Ph.D., is a licensed psychologist in Texas, international speaker, and a multi-award-winning author. He has been specializing in the treatment and assessment of individuals with personality disorders for over 20 years in the state and federal prison system, universities, and in private practice. His specialty areas include personality disorders, ethics, burnout prevention, and emotional intelligence.
He has published several articles and books in these areas and is the author of:
The BPD Card Deck: 50 Ways to Balance Emotions and Live Well with Borderline Personality Disorder. Available at: www.shorturl.at/jBHJV
Complex Borderline Personality Disorder: How Coexisting Conditions Affect Your BPD and How You Can Gain Emotional Balance. Available at:
rb.gy/hdyqyy
Antisocial, Narcissistic, and Borderline Personality Disorders: A New Conceptualization of Development, Reinforcement, Expression, and Treatment. Available at: tinyurl.com/2anv8dww
The Borderline Personality Disorder Workbook: An Integrative Program to Understand and Manage Your BPD. Available at: goo.gl/LQEgy1
Antisocial, Borderline, Narcissistic and Histrionic Workbook: Treatment Strategies for Cluster B Personality Disorders (IPBA Benjamin Franklin Gold Award Winner): goo.gl/BLRkFy
Narcissistic Personality Disorder Toolbox: 55 Practical Treatment Techniques for Clients, Their Parents & Their Children (IPBA Benjamin Franklin Silver Award Winner):: goo.gl/sZYhym
Dr. Fox has given numerous workshops and seminars on ethics and personality disorders, personality disorders and crime, treatment solutions for treating clients along the antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality spectrum, emotional intelligence, managing mental health within the prison system, and others. Dr. Fox maintains a website of various treatment interventions focused on working with and attenuating the symptomatology related to individuals along the antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality spectrum (www.drdfox.com).
TH-cam: / @drdanielfox
Dr. Fox’s website: www.drdfox.com/
Dr. Fox’s Blog: www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...
Facebook: / appliedpsychservices
Twitter: / drdanieljfox1
LinkedIn: / drdfox
Instagram: / drdfox
Amazon Author’s Page: amazon.com/author/drfox
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00:00 Introduction
00:34 Emotional instability
02:55 Interpersonal challenges
04:05 Sense of insecurity
04:56 Narcissistic ego
07:32 Potential for manipulation
09:13 Overt and covert narcissism
12:13 Masking behaviors
14:27 Expression of narcissistic traits
15:44 Focus of Concern
16:44 Self-image
19:31 Interpersonal patterns
20:59 Response to criticism
22:58 What’s a narcissistic wound?
The outburst rage of quiet BPD is one of the most dangerous things to be around when it happens
Yup, lived around it for 26 years before finally moving out. BPD mother with narcissistic traits; made life a living hell every day.
Same here, I'm fucked up from it.
My ex partner is a covert (sometimes more overt) narcissist and I have CPTSD / Borderline traits (and I’m an autistic woman). Our relationship was soul shattering but pushed me to finally address my shadow and heal from my childhood trauma. He bought ALL of my deepest wounds to the surface, and for that I am thankful. Our relationship was the perfect storm. I didn’t deserve to be psychologically abused, but I am now also more enlightened. I now acknowledge that narcissism is also a response to emotional neglect / praise but no emotional connection - I feel sorry for him now.
Oh this is going to be SO helpful. I was involved with someone who admitted to having Quiet BPD, but who over time, felt & acted like he had vulnerable/covert NPD. And after reading Mark Ettensohn & Craig Malkin's books...I can't imagine he isn't at least both, if not misdiagnosed. No matter what, it was a brutal lesson into my own codependent tendencies and deepest layers of childhood wounds which I'd never had access to until he pulled that out of me, and thus forced me to rebuild myself in a way I am profoundly grateful for. Sometimes our greatest teachers show up in the most unexpected (or unpleasant) ways and letting those lessons be a benefit rather than just another wound, can be life changing.
NPDs are more hollow/fake feeling and often mostly cares about superficial things and how they are seen.
Borderlines usually does not care too much about those things unless they are related to abandonment.
Could be a combo as you said.
Agree and congrats to you for finding a positive within such a negative situation. When I first discovered BPD & 4types & different traits of each, the psychologist explained someone can have many traits from each of the 4 type with a total possible combination of 256 characteristics. Also it’s quite common for cluster B personality disorders to have other disorders on top of BPD. Having been exposed to this for the last 7yrs I too am about embark upon the “codependency” road.
Well said! Thank you!
Wow, beautifully said.
Thank you this is exactly my experience & how I look at it.
my mom has a mix of both, my dad is just pure covert Narcissist, so yea…. i’m in therapy 💃🤦♀️
This makes sense finally. I was confused about my lack of emotionality until I can't hold back the crazy anymore.
Lmao got that right
I'm a long time sufferer of Quiet BPD. You're very insightful and helpful. The amount of suffering I go through silently is horrendous
I appreciate your kind words and I'm glad you found my content insightful and helpful. Remember, you're not alone in your struggles.
thank you for educating us about many types of PDs without demonizing any of them. people see behavior of NPD, BPD, and most Cluster A and B PDs and just don't see what's behind it, and they just assume they must be a horrible toxic person who is in some fixed villainous mind that is just purely bad. as always, harmful behavior isn't excused for anyone, but i just appreciate how much you and others are destigmatizing diagnoses that for too long have just been seen as "this means you're some deranged inhuman evil that is entirely separate from any mormal person".
human minds are so complicated and we're learning new things every day, and i believe i've never met someone who has no reason behind their behavior, or that it's an organized, calculated, intentional choice. i think most of us are kind of stumbling in the dark a lot and aren't very mindful of our actions or what drives them. plenty of people don't have a great grasp or control on their behavior and why, and it's admittedly hard to always be conscious of what's going on inside us. learning and understanding is everything, and i appreciate you and everyone who makes such an effort to explain and educate people, and even more, find a way to help people who don't share the diagnosis to understand and empathize.
Dr. Danny you read us like a book! I have both quiet BPD (diagnosed) and vulnerable NPD and I love the compassion you speak with about both BPD and NPD. Your videos have calmed me from horrible spiraling, I feel like I have a therapist in my pocket. I just started with 3 therapists 2 months ago but your videos are the bridge of calm in between crisis states. The compassion in your speech for NPD and BPD has taken me out of self destructive crisis moments. I feel much more calm, informed and understood. And I am embracing improvement with every step along the way. At Barnes and noble I got your borderline PD workbook and it feels so grounding. I appreciate you! ✨
Can I ask, what lead you to therapy?
To Dr Fox: An Unsung Hero
Sir you are doing an efficient job at removing the stigma that not only surrounds BPD but Cluster B in general. We truly need more therapists and educators like you, your perspective is enlightening to the ones suffering in the sense that it gives new life to the individual - one that is free of guilt and shame and only filled with compassion for oneself whereas to their loved ones it is a blanket of reassurence and illuminating insight into the pain of personality disorders and mental illnesses.
As a Borderline in remission today, I feel deeply obliged and will never be able to thank you enough for all your support through your YT, IG pages and other free content available as well as your books and card decks. In a world that once felt like quicksand with loopholes waiting for my downfall to a world of dreams and oppurtunities a melting pot for humanity, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Lots of Love, blessings and good wishes from India. May you be well always. Amen.
Your gratitude fills my heart with joy. I'm so glad my content has been helpful to you. Thank you for your support!
Your message delivery style captures audience attention and conveys you’re not just an industry leader but have true compassion and passion for the people you help and others. Compare this to a 5 year old video on your channel. Good job. Free ego inflation that’s well deserved.
It is like being on a Waltzer ride.....and the guy comes and spins you and spins and spins you....and your screaming STOP STOP STOP...but he does not STOP....Just like the crap that goes around in my head!...just around. around I go......I just learnt I am Quiet BPD....Thank you Dr Fox
I relate to both at the same time 😅 A little bit more to the narcicism part, but still.
About the manipulation part, I usually realize I've been overdramatizing the moment that people show me emotional support, because then my needs get met, my mood stabilizes, and then I get a more clear sight of myself and realize, I'm not that lonely (e.g.).
So no, it's not my conscious intention, I do believe that stuff in the moment.
Same
same
PERFECT. Covert Narc here. Just adding that the maladaptive behaviour is not conscious. I didn’t know I behaved that way not untill I became self aware.
Does it matter to the person who received the behavior?
How did you become self aware??
How does one become self aware
It's good you became self aware. I hope you have been training to have healthier coping mechanisms
@ZacerysTheFirst they didn't say anything to blame shift. I'm sure that person is aware enough to know that they're not making excuses for anything, and do not need to be shamed by a stranger for simply chiming in to confirm a video's accuracy and lend some insight into the firsthand experience of it.
Oof... I was recently diagnosed with BPD and I am definitely the Quiet BPD type. And figuring out that my ex was a covert narcissist is shocking, but also explains so much. What a terrible mismatched pair. So enlightening.
😂 I keep finding people as fkd as me too!!!
I could listen to you all day. Your skill for educating in such an engaging way is amazing and valued.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
My daughter has BPD and I’m trying to learn everything I can about it and ways to “help” her since she is 28 and will be living together for life at this point. Thank you for putting this video out there.
As someone with BPD whose parents never pursued deeper understanding I commend you and am so glad your daughter has a mom who is willing to learn. Best advice I can give is to avoid the temptation to take things personally, there are many ways a BPD sufferer has different needs than someone without and just because something is received badly or triggers an unwanted response it doesn't mean you did anything wrong, just means they need "special" treatment sometimes to be able to feel and receive the love and support and guidance you're trying to give. It is the most treatable personality disorder, and many of the things holding her back can be healed past and learned around with diligent support 🤗
Run! I just tried to help a Borderline with Dr fox's book. She was also in therapy. Run! You do not want to be around a borderline for any reason.
@@timweedon2785Stop generalizing. Just because you had a bad experience with someone it doesn't mean everyone with the disorder is the same. How do you even know the person who hurt you had BPD? Are you a doctor trained to diagnose? Lastly, even if the person you knew has BPD, that person may also have comorbid disorders that heighten or worsen their behaviors/symptoms. This is why it's so important not to generalize.
@@Valreea typical BPD gaslighting bs right there you just did. Run from borderlines. Theyre horrible insane people without actual empathy
@@timweedon2785dr. fox's channel is a safe space for people with bpd and he advocates against this stigma, don't bring your negativity here
This is me.
Rather I'm shedding that "me" and trying to learn about my maladaptive behaviours and core beliefs in order to overcome and change.
I only got to know myself a couple of years back after a real tragedy happened.
Thank you Dr Fox for your priceless effort and work you do.
Just from watching your vidoes which are so empathetic and insightful plus digging the web on the topic of ACEs & attachment therory I was able to make sense of how I messed up most of my last 30 years or so.
I'm also doing a course on mindfulness which helped me to slow down and connect with myself and the world of emotions.
I still got work to do - the hardest one being that I am worthy and able to achieve (struggling with eating issues).
One of your vidoes which made me hit rock bottom and absolutely left me stripped of everything (dont know if this is a right way to express, english not being my first language) was "Parenting with BPD".
I broke down in tears after watching it cos finally, finally after struggling so many years with my kids I found an answer as to why parenting was such a difficult thing for me.
Again thank you and may God give you the best in this life and the next.
Edit:
Still slowly watching and processing the clip and wondering - can someone being raised by an overt narcissistic parent become themselves a quiet BPD??
So much of what you're saying fits mum and me
Needed this and it came at the perfect time. Thank you so much Dr,
This video has answered a lot of questions for me. Thank you.
thank you dr fox. im really trying to overcome these issues.
I'm diagnosed with quiet bpd and i don't think I've ever heard it summarized so respectfully. I really appreciate the empathy you have for others. 😊
Hi Doc, I wanted to thank you for your content here on YT. I've absorbed a lot of material regarding narcissism, being the now 49 year old son of a narcissistic father. But so far, your content is the one I find the most relevant and useful to what I've been through and am going through. As I can't and don't want to separate him from my life for a series of reasons, I'm forced to develop strategies to deal with the difficulty that is dealing with him, while at the same time rebuilding myself from the ground zero state he left my ego into, since it's only recently that I've realized and started to understand how he functions. So again, thank you.
I'm glad to hear about quiet Bpd. I tend to exhibit quite a bit of the "quiet" symptoms. I think that's why I received my diagnosis very late in life. There is one thing I don't quite understand. I'm not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but are you able to do for others? What you can't do for yourself? I attend school for psych, and I work in the mental health field. I work with many individuals who suffer from chronic or severe mental illness. Mostly schizophrenia and at work I do so well. I am able to lead groups, give meds, help others manage their emotions, and work through traumas, but I can't seem to do it for myself. It's like something in my brain is not clicking. I am patient, calm, efficient, and I sure know my stuff at work but when it comes to myself I'm lost. What is this? Lol. Why can I not transfer this knowledge over? And manage my personal life as well as I do my work life. I take nothing personal at work so maybe that's the difference. Does anyone else experience something similar? Would love to hear general thoughts on this.
There's something to be said about the frame when it comes to being a mental health worker. There are rules & guidelines that are clear generally which can help with the anxiety around being 'perfect'. You may also know how to regulate for others but may struggle to regulate for yourself. Having BPD doesn't mean you're heartless, on the contrary you may have an immense amount of empathy for others but may struggle to have it for yourself.
A book I can recommend is: Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors. It's extremely interesting and posits that we're all made up of parts & so you're 'working self' may be extremely capable and regulated where as maybe you're day to day self or your inner-child may need some care.
Hope that clarifies a few things
(I'm not a psychotherapist but a clinical counselor/art therapist & I work with clients that struggle with BPD, ADHD, ASD)
Thank you very much for sharing your insights and knowledge filled videos and streams !! Intelligent and professional !! Outstanding !!
Greetings from California … I wish you and folks good health , success and happiness !! Much Love ✌️😎💕
I'm having to watch it a couple time to make sure I'm grasping ... butni feel it's because I'm being to black and white about things lol ty for making this video I've been needing one like this for a min so really ty for the insight .... it's hard because truly I see alot of the bpd connection but when you bring up talking about how broken they are I have tk admit I go there once I've stuffed for to long and finally snap on my fp .. or other person I might have been overly enmeshed with.... I also have a tendency to talk about my medical issues alot from.my perspective for awareness as I don't really like poor baby or let me fix thay for you makes me feel unsafe or I'm unsure of the motive or how long they will be there to help.... when I was younger I'd be ok with letting them help but as I age I feel it's more of a chance for abandonment or rejection so I try to avoid asking for help .... and I do avoid alot .... it's been one of the bigger issues as I age and get sicker ..... I guess the hardest part to separate is even if I do get interaction about my struggles I never become overt .... I don't want the attention though I can't deny it is comforting to have others show they are invested for long term understanding of my life ..... inguess that's why so meny have had a eazy time connecting me to narssasisum though I'm not ..... as a male bordelrine I guess I might have some similar tactics ..... when I feel my partner or really close connections arnt being understanding along with me putting my things aside and adapting to make sure the other peole feel happy and loved so I can feel secure in not losing them or them disapproving of who I am ..... I just struggle to feel I can trust how they say they feel about me and that lack of trust make me worry they will leave me and like you said the emptiness I struggle with will get louder.... cuz I don't fully get rid of the emptiness I'm jusy good at making it and seeming secure .... why inhave to avoid makes it so I'm less likely to build up internal tension ..... it'd also hard because when i do snap it's very destructive... braking things yelling loud about how they dint care or arnt listening to my side or hurting myself .... but most the time I used to do drugs or have sex ..... non of this is by choice I'm just self aware.... I learned this cuz I figured out ifni can't do my dbt skills and separate before I snap and come back latter to discuss and meta communicate with said perosn I'm less likely to go to a extreme form of destruction and petulance..... I'm just not a person who seeks adoration or someone to take care of me .... but I do need peoke to prove they will be there for me in the hardest of times ..... been a hard road.... ageb grate video I'll have tk keep watching it to make sure it sticks .... I also think I'm gonna try and minimize the amout of time I talk about my illness.... mabye that will help prevent peole from reading it as fishing for adoration..... ty for the insight as allways Dr fox
You always talk about insight is key Dr. Fox, truth is I find myself learning from your videos about other people and myself. I hope you know that you are providing people with a lot of insight and grace. The way you speak about these disorders is very compassionate and helps me be a bit less quick to judge. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and love.
You’re very welcome.
I've just received your workbook. The BPD workbook. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed by it but working through it step by step is something I'm going to try to do.
Good for you! One day at time!
Take it one step at a time, you got this!
Npd and BPD suffers do have intent and plan and other times they are impulsive and impaired, it is both
Great explanations. Thank you!! 😊
You're so welcome!
Thanks for such a detailed analysis. Very helpful. I believe in my extended family (in-laws) I've seen both bpd and covert npd.
Glad it was helpful!
I’m a former army Ranger and I have BPD. My girlfriend is small, soft and… just, I don’t… I don’t know how to tell her how I feel, I don’t know how to hold it in, and I don’t want to hurt her. I’ve never touched her and I don’t want to. She lives with a werewolf and I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to lose her
*haven’t touched her in a rage. I normally am able to get away
By the way, I like very much your video editing! It's really helpful for people who learn things in a visual way 👏 Vero good! Just one favour, please keep long description for few seconds more so that we can read it in time and remember easily. Thank you!
Yay! Thank you! I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
The click bait made me nervous, but you've never steered me wrong....glad I watched. As someone with BPD who has been caught in toxic narcissistic relationships pretty much from birth I appreciate any and all related content, and would like to see more about how some of us are incredibly vulnerable to narcissism (especially covert) and can become caught in a cycle where our core content makes us stick around for the ride regardless of how damaging we know it to be. Love all content and am here for wherever we go next.
Thank you very much for this video 🙏 I've been studying narcissism for few years but I haven't heard about Silent Borderline Narcissistic Disorder. It helps me a lot! Now, I can understand why a person I know seems to have narcissistic traits, but shows real empathy. She realizes often that she's under a strong and destructive influence of her narcissistic mother, but when you try helping her, showing her books, videos and articles to understand narcissism and how to help oneself, she gives up! You're right a BPSD person wants that "reward" - love bombing of the narcissistic mother and keeping her in the victim's scenario. Now I understand this meccanism! Thank you!!! ❤
What? It's called borderline personality disorder, bipolar has nothing to do with it. Maybe educate yourself bipolar is not bpd.
@saskiavanlieshoud390 Before you critisize, it's nice to write a polite comment first... you know? I am an educated person, still a human being. I ment borderline, of course. I'm referring in my comment to doctor's video. It's just a mistake I made as I was writing. I haven't noticed it.
Sure, bipolar symptom is different.
I've just corrected my mistake.
Have a good day.
Great video! Summarizes both very well 👍🏻
One question - have you observed in your praxis whether narcissistic parents produce more often borderline children?
Especially this combination - covert narcissistic parent putting all his anger, contempt and negativity about life on his child and the child has no other choice but to stuff it inside and hence internalizes the chaos, anger and shame of his parent, which turns the child into quit borderline, could it be? 🤷
also a video discussing avpd vs qpbd would be super interesting
I display traits of both quiet BPD and covert NPD and regarding the manipulation being intentional, I personally do not realize that I’m being manipulative in the moment but after my wife explains it to me I have to admit that my behavior sounds very manipulative.
Dr. Fox, I had to pause this video as soon as I heard you make the point to ask - I'm an adult child (clinically diagnosed) with BPD who is the child of someone (undiagnosed, but as textbook as they come) with NPD... I've been working my butt off in individual therapy, using your work book, etc, to define and implement boundaries.... My one overtly struggling relationship has always been that with my NPD father. Now, as a mother myself, I have a newly protective nature that begs new input - are my boundaries enough? To protect me as an adult (though they couldn't protect me as a child)? To protect my kids?
Could you possibly make a video outing these challenges, as so many of us with BPD grew up with at least one BPD parent?
Dear dr. Fox
I really enjoy your youtube channel. And I would like to ask you a question.
I have read that bpd symptoms might diminish over time. Yet I often see stories online about older people that still suffer from bpd and are still violent.
What I would like to know - what are the chances of symptom reduction due to aging?
I hope you can reach out to Zoraya Ter Beek to let her know there is hope for people who have BPD. It's so unfortunate to hear that she feels there's no other choice.
Thank you for all that you do Mr Fox!
It's important to spread hope and awareness for mental health challenges. Thank you for your support!
I wish my ex husband would watch this. It make so much sense especially the last few interactions we had. It makes the whole relationship make sense.
Quiet, Hi, I think the manipulation is brought on ourself when we feel taken advantage of, we expect a partner to be a mind reader... when we do something it's our vocalization of what we want.
I give, amd when it's not reciprocated, then resentment builds, because screaming inside as to why the partner isn't doing something similar in return... we don't k ow how to express needs without that fear of
This was really interesting. I’d like to learn more about quiet BPD. I’m wondering what an activated,”explosive” event would look like, and what might trigger it.
BPD with narcissistic traits is the most dangerous combo. They have no empathy and usually it is these BPDs that are the most cruel, and is capable of discarding people at will. Without narcissistic traits, BPDs would at least feel guilt and recover and could even apologize.
I like Dr. Fox :D He's nice and warm.
Thank you so much for your kind words. I wish you well.
Im a 3 time diagnosed bpd. I just got out of an abusive relationship with who I suspect to be a covert narcissist. Im still so confused over it all, and i question if i was mid diagnosed and I was actually the problem, and he abused me to retaliate against my abuse. Im so afraid to be a narcissist, and research isn’t very helpful bc there is so much overlap. Youre video went into why and the thinking. And I really appreciate this clarity… id rather have bpd than narcissism
Food for thought, you're not BPD, you have BPD. You're more than a mental illness.
I am such a failure. I hate myself. I have been on this platform for 4 YEARS! And whatever I do always fails!!!
Restart :) Progress is not linear, there will be setbacks but you have the opportunity every day to start again. It’s hard I know, but very very possible
Could you please do a video on how to tolerate intense negative emotions effectively e.g sadness that last fot hours on end? Feeling sadness is exhausting and suffocating, and can make us feel 'stuck' and as such suicid^×l. I try to remind myself of the notion of acceptance and change, but is difficult and all I think about is how to basically unalive myself, and how much I hate feeling things and being alive.
Certain breathing exercises can be really helpful. They won't fix the root problem, but they can get you through the hardest minutes and hours. Look into how to do the "physiological sigh", and "box breathing". Super simple excercises that really work to help regulate the nervous system during intense times. ❤️🩹
TRE, trauma informed yoga could possibly help if incorporated into your routine. Feeling the emotion is integral to inner healing.
@ArchAngel435 that may be true for some people, but maybe hard to access or find? And regular yoga might be unhelpful for some, as severe trauma and suid*d@l ideations are contraindicated when it comes to "feeling the emotions" as people on the edge of unaliving are experiencing extreme emotional overload. Any meditative practices that are meant to draw someone inward into their own mind and body. Meaning...sometimes that stillness and targeted feeling of emotion is literally dangerous for people on the edge of unaliving themselves. It's much more recommended that they use more active movement and breathing techniques that help get someone OUT of their head, rather than in it. Things like dancing around- even in silly ways. Literally shaking out the energy. Walking or jogging outdoors is a big one. And being around people...even if you don't have healthy friends to be around...go walk around a supermarket or sit in a restaurant if need be, but ideally join a free activity group or something where you can interact with safe people...even without the therapy or psychology factor involved. Isolation creates tachykinin in the brain...a chemical that causes extremely negative feelings and thoughts that can make self-harm feelings much worse.
@@imm0rtalitypassi0nthank you for this insight. Extremely helpful
@@ArchAngel435 ❤️🩹
I think it can be easy to say "they meant to do that" and blame them, as a means of justifying any felt insults to being used. It's easier to feel victimized sometimes than to take responsibility for any level of sustaining unhealthy cycles, because of that tendency to assign fault rather than just understand context.
It's important to reflect on our actions and reactions in challenging situations.
The inner child part of me who was abused by rageful borderline father and dismissive super perfectionistic mother wants to scream everytime my pain is pathologised, but I get it. I was diagnosed with BPD, Autism, ADD and I believe I have vulnerable narc traits as well. A lot of OCD loops as well. Not saying this to get attention or sympathy, just getting my thoughts out in a matter of fact way. I want to get out of my own head and just be normal. I'm seeing a therapist, I do my own work at home too. Still, it's hard not to feel sometimes like no matter what I do, no matter how many positive changes I make It'll never be good enough because in the end I'll still be a "broken" cluster B who's inherently less valuable and less "human" than a neurotypical healthy person. How can I ever know if what I'm saying is correct? If I'm bothering people? How can I trust my own judgement on anything if it's true that my brain is broken? So all I do is default to others, because I think "they must know better than me, because I have a mental illness, so I'll do whatever they say". And then if it backfires or that person ends up abusing me, I still blame myself because "well it's because of my disorder that I didn't see that coming!"
I drive myself insane and mostly avoid people so they dont have to deal with my weird energy. I keep it all to myself thougy irl, other than a brief description. I don't like to show any emotion at all unless I have to
You CANNOT help someone who does not want help.
I dont know how they say someone has quiet BPD or it is the normal stuffing we tend to have given our abusive past experiences ?
it's the fear of being abandoned that is the forefront of every action. with people pleasing.
Internally feeling as if you don't please the partner, the relationship is over. even something minor, like I cooked over easy eggs and they were stiff vs runny yolks... the fear of disappointment and it would lead to being rejected...
it's not fun in the head as it's mostly just made up thoughts vs reality.
but also having it flip to having a negative perspective of the partner where... oh I cook all the time and you can't do a simple thing for me... that's the feelings of being taken advantage of... but it was never asked for the partner to do something, it was never anything except a thought that the partner should just know...
Hello dr. Fox. First of all I dearly thank you for your content, I find that it is one of a few channels who talks not in a judgemental way about these issues. My question is, is it possible that one can „switch“ between a quite type of bpd to a different type of bpd? Also the more I watch these type of videos the more I see certain traits in people around me, and also myself, that I need to be careful not to judge everyone as „ this or that“, if that makes sense. Is it possible that a borderline also tends to „overcomplain“ about their suffer , maybe from abuse that still went on, but really tries to get out of the „ I hate my life „ mindset ? Thank you and keep up the great work, it helps many to be more honest , in a gentle leading way, to oneself.
Thank you so much for your kind words and thoughtful questions. It's great to hear that my content is helping you navigate these complex issues.
Short term reward/long term consequences. So what I experience. Except I don’t have the guts to move on, so I’ve been with the long term consequence for about 20 years because I am terrified of being on my own. @Dr Fox, what do I do? 😢
Can you talk about false hope with BPD? Struggling to move on/heal after I chose to break up with my favorite person last year. Racing thoughts, negativity, self harm. Not sure what to do to overcome the lingering feelings that I belong with her
Why did you break up? Why don’t you tell her how you feel?
@@vanessap8717 I haven’t ever been more manic in my life, I do not want to be in that situation again. I am still unhealthy and relationships are for healthy people.
Will the workbook help me identify my personality problems? Where to get it?
Yes I’ve seen all of this 1st hand.
The telling of the suffering and how i don’t understand the extent exactly howmDr Fox described.
I’ve also seen this person internalize & push everything down.
Of the 9 qualifiers for BPD they have at least 8 if not all 9 and many characteristics of at least 3 of the subtypes.
When i 1st discovered what BPD was i then started realizing this person also had “narcissistic patterns or traits” also.
Been learning more lately on Narcissism and feeling like they are more of the Covert narcissist ..
and the manipulation and lies are rampant. The Plot .. often when they’re planning on doing something they don’t want me to know about, a plot or story begins to get laid out earlier in the day ..
then they go m.i.a. out doing whatever and if i choose to suggest even in the calmest non confrontational way possibly known to man that they’re not being honest with me .. all heck breaks loose ..
or when they need/want something from me the honey starts getting poured, usually 1st thing in the morning. The ask comes later that day.
I'm diagnosed with AVPD and BPD but differently see myself in the covert NPD.
I have found in life there are two kinds of people, and I wonder if narcissism is what is the dividing line, so if anyone knows the answer, please let me know. The two kinds of people are "This specific bad thing happened to me so it aught to happen to everyone or its not fair" vs "this specific bad thing happened to me, so I'm going to do whatever I can to keep it from happening to others." I'm sure it could be caused by a variety of conditions, but from what I've seen, it's almost always a narcissist with the first statement.
I have BPD and I always feel bad when I feel like I have manipulated people. I don't do it on purpose.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
Im worried i must be some sort of narcissist ! Besides my adult son told me so and ive been worried about it. Should i get a diagnosis? How?
Dr Fox. Can someone with quiet bpd who is working on their mental health health, and getting professional support be a mental health counselor and be effective?
I believe they can.
But isn’t shame a big o pop art of BPD as well?
I still find it hard to distinguish between the two and do not know where to put myself 🙈
I am definitely seeking validation and help, but isn’t that a normal human need as well to some extent?
I am so afraid to take advantage of others at the same I need help because I am really struggling every day. I do not want to hurt others or make them feel used by me!
I am diagnosed with BPD along with other stuff, everything seems to be overlapping and confusing.
Validation is a normal human need within relationships. To have your feelings validated matters.
Could you make a video about relationships between these two personalities?
I have BPD and my ex was a covert vulnerable and malignant narcissist, I’m just getting out of a two year relationship with this person and it was hell. Originally I went into the relationship thinking he had BPD but then after all the lies, gaslighting, cheating and manipulation I discovered he was actually a covert narcissist. The perpetual victim who cried about all the pain but never wanted solutions or to do any treatment to get better.
I don’t lie. Cause my grandiosity is attached to being super moral 🤷🏻♀️ and that is why I say: no Narc is like the other.
I've seen people with covert-vulnerable traits flip to overt-grandiose. It's not a pretty sight.
I have a feeling a person with overt-grandiose traits could flip to the other side during a narcissistic injury or a full on collapse.
Okay but what about the fact that quiet BPD has not been verified to be an actual disorder in literature unlike vulnerable narcissism which has been?
That's an interesting point! The distinction between quiet BPD and vulnerable narcissism in terms of literature verification is worth exploring further.
I’m so lost. I’m diagnosed with BPD, but I relate to a lot of the covert narcissism traits. But mostly to BPD traits.
But I don’t fear abandonment. But I am terrified of people not admiring me. My core wound is a very fragile self esteem. Not abandonment.
I would rather be admired than loved which I know is more narcissism
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It takes courage to open up about such personal struggles.
I sent her a Gift with a Cryptic note this morning for having played me. I now feel guilty because I found out she has BPD.
Thank you for sharing your experience and being open about your feelings. It's never easy to navigate complex emotions.
Now you know to just be kind:) it’s hard though! But in the future, try to always show up as your best even when you’re treated poorly by a partner. You don’t need to be mean, but you don’t need to put up with disrespect either. There’s some quote I read years ago “leave ppl better off then when you met them” something like that.. then no guilt;)
Scanning all the comments - and most of them start with me me me, I I I. hehe.
So narcissistic.
Can quite BPD become a covert narcissist after therapy? I
No
Why does the picture look like its from human centipede
😱 what picture? 😂
Is Covert Narcissism now called Psychopathic Narcissism?
Do they cry (from real emotions)? Isn't crying at seen as weakness unless there is an end goal e.g. getting sympathy?
I saw covert go to overt for about 6 months, then hibernate back to covert for winter! 3 years running
No, there is no clinical term "psychopathic narcissism". It may be colloquial.
@@DrDanielFox I was thinking of this I think: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism (someone who seems to enjoy inflicting pain on the partner)
I just subscribed. I love someone diagnosed with BPD, multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar, and anxiety and I am SURE… covert narcissism. Rejection sensitivity causes me to have a breakdown! The fear of abandonment is hijacking this person's soul!Not to mention crack and fentanyl addiction!. Guess what? Im fkd too! Not going to be part of this relationship any longer! My cat and God are ENOUGH!
I'm beginning to understand that all of these disorders are essentially bred from the same core things. They are just....branches of the same disordered pattern of attachment formed in childhood. It's a spectrum. With some people manifesting more "borderline" traits and others more "narcissistic" traits but it's all the same fucking thing. Took me 3 years to figure this out but I'm convinced this is the case. People want neatly defined boxes and labels to fit people into and that's not how mental illness works. Even people with the same mood disorder can vary wildly. All cluster b's overlap and are at their core the same "illness". They are all grappling with the same issues. Sincerely - a doomed cluster b member .
I agree with all but the fact that you're doomed.
(But yeah, the person I knew who checks every box on both sides of the list in this video- I witnessed the tail end of him expressing more of his quiet bpd side, who fawned/people-pleased a ton and was totally codependently enmeshed with with his very narcissistic ex til she broke up with him and he fell apart.....yet then observed him express more of his very hot to increasingly cold covert npd side with me which initially lured me out of platonic friendship & into falling for him once i was sunk into codependent caretaker mode. I will say he seemed to have an internal battle btwn bottling up his suffering & letting me know just enough to fuel my caretaking, because overall he did still try to hide his hurt. I got burned in the end after discovering a lot of deception and thus facing my misplaced emotional investment. I was the band-aid on his npd collapse after his break up & once he felt like himself again, I was discarded for a bunch of other girls. That's not a sob story, lol. I'm grateful for how much it allowed me to learn and heal about myself. I shared it as an example of the way someone can vacillate btwn cluster b traits. So even within one person, the spectrum can shift depending on who they're paired up with and what's going on in their life.)
@@imm0rtalitypassi0n exactly. I've been in relationships with "healthy" people and behaved very narcissistically. I didn't do this intentionally. It's a pattern of learned behavior and dysfunctional ways of dealing with attachments to people. And I've been in relationships with other cluster B's and was much more "borderline" in those. My fear of abandonment being triggered by their behavior and the desperate need to hold on to them. It's a deeply rooted attachment disorder that comes from unstable parenting and you're right that it manifests differently based on your partner.
@levity90 yep. I understand. I once told him during a brief, heartfelt convo about how terrified he was of being used again, that I understood he only learned two modes of relating "being used, or doing the using", as if there was no in-between..aka black & white relationship dynamics. I do wish him the best and I still have hope for all of us. As long as we're alive, we have a chance at healing the bullsh*t we went through that forged unhealthy patterns. ❤️🩹
It's mind fu*king trying to figure out whether my estranged husband ( who has finally left with his former divorce client ) is borderline ( which I always thought he was during our 25 yr toxic marriage) The more I research, the more narcissistic he seems to be. He also seems to be grandiose, a trait that's on display now more than ever on social media.
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As I suspected...the guy I knew is most likely struggling with both. I witnessed every single point for both lists. Sigh. I hope he finds peace & healing someday.
Not liking the editing in this one. Find it hard to focus on what you're saying. It's too fast, like you're hopped up on caffeine. I tried slowing it to .75, but that's too slow. Natural talking pace is best, with natural breathing room. We are natural people. And what's with the Xena-like motion noises (whoosh)? Is somebody marketing you? You feel marketed. Also the whole premiere thing, and making us wait in anticipation before we can watch an upload. I know what that's for. I had a class on consumer education. That's subtle customer manipulation, marketing, sales, advertizing. You're making yourself into a product. I don't think you should be a product. I don't think you should use sales tactics to promote yourself as a product. Just teach. Please just be a psychologist. No whoosh.
Too many Windows Movie Maker transition effects on an untrimmed video.
@@imm0rtalitypassi0n no, it's sales tactics. He's here to make a ton of money. He's probably tired of seeing customers in person and heard about how much money you can make from a successful TH-cam channel so he's pulling out all the stops to pull that off. Authenticity be darned. No. I need people to be authentic and to be doing stuff because it's right, and if they're here to sell, then to be transparent about it. Watching videos like this will never be a substitute for having an in-person session, but they make you feel like it is. It's not about preference. I feel the wool being pulled over my eyes. And unless you're here merely for entertainment, then it's being pulled over yours as well. TH-cam has become little more than sell sell sell nowadays. Like many before him, Dr Fox is seeking fame and glory. Otherwise he'd spend his free time with his family, not making these videos.
@@brightphoebuswow😅😅 you are not judgemental, biased or imaginative huh?? 😂😂
The key is found at 17:34
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
The covert gets more overt with money. The more money 💰 🤑 💸 they crawl out of sneaking around . Pride and selfishness is run by money.
I feel(!) that this video is a bit biased towards people with bpd 🙄
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I've never seen anyone with pronounced victimhood cry as much, "Woe is me," as when they say, "All my friends have betrayed me, so I'm all alone". Collapsed covert narcissists (who have failed to receive narcissistic supply) also engage in competitive victimhood, signaling special treatment and using it as their language. The ICD includes BPD as a subcategory of emotionally unstable disorder while the DSM-5 taxonomically groups NPD, BPD, Antisocial Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder under Cluster B Disorders. They are marked by inappropriate, volatile emotionality and often unpredictable behavior (erratic and emotional).
Love those curse words Dr. Fox "doodoodoodo" 😄. But absolutely, those words are what comes to mind when feeling used and manipulated by the covert narcissist/quiet BPD and they return to grandiose behavior after their needs have been met. It's helpful to know that often the manipulation is not completely conscious, i.e. they don't know how immoral manipulation is.
Yes their trauma was often real but 1/ everyone has had pain and 2/ in the case of borderlines, they often are the cause of their continued suffering.
The key is BOUNDARIES. Problem is that when you find out you need to enforce boundaries it's too late. Unless they are psychopaths (which they can often turn into under stress) they can understand you if you explain why you need boundaries. Just like you are explaining something to a five year old, which, emotionally intelligent wise, they are.
This was super helpful. I'm quiet BPD raised in a narcissistic household.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.