Oh this is going to be SO helpful. I was involved with someone who admitted to having Quiet BPD, but who over time, felt & acted like he had vulnerable/covert NPD. And after reading Mark Ettensohn & Craig Malkin's books...I can't imagine he isn't at least both, if not misdiagnosed. No matter what, it was a brutal lesson into my own codependent tendencies and deepest layers of childhood wounds which I'd never had access to until he pulled that out of me, and thus forced me to rebuild myself in a way I am profoundly grateful for. Sometimes our greatest teachers show up in the most unexpected (or unpleasant) ways and letting those lessons be a benefit rather than just another wound, can be life changing.
NPDs are more hollow/fake feeling and often mostly cares about superficial things and how they are seen. Borderlines usually does not care too much about those things unless they are related to abandonment. Could be a combo as you said.
Agree and congrats to you for finding a positive within such a negative situation. When I first discovered BPD & 4types & different traits of each, the psychologist explained someone can have many traits from each of the 4 type with a total possible combination of 256 characteristics. Also it’s quite common for cluster B personality disorders to have other disorders on top of BPD. Having been exposed to this for the last 7yrs I too am about embark upon the “codependency” road.
Once you realize you have manipulative traits (no matter the diagnosis) and you work on changing them, you feel so much better & like your actually growing up emotionally. A lot of us have so much trauma we dont even know whats normal anymore, and we honestly dont consciously realize we are manipulating. I thought I was just getting my needs met the same way I saw my mom do it. When youre walking around not present, a lot of things slip by unnoticed. Not everyone who manipulates is doing it consciously or with the understanding its not normal. I am finding a lot of healing by working on these traits.
It's truly inspiring to hear about your journey towards healing and self-awareness! Recognizing those traits is a significant first step, and it sounds like you're making great progress.
Dr. Danny you read us like a book! I have both quiet BPD (diagnosed) and vulnerable NPD and I love the compassion you speak with about both BPD and NPD. Your videos have calmed me from horrible spiraling, I feel like I have a therapist in my pocket. I just started with 3 therapists 2 months ago but your videos are the bridge of calm in between crisis states. The compassion in your speech for NPD and BPD has taken me out of self destructive crisis moments. I feel much more calm, informed and understood. And I am embracing improvement with every step along the way. At Barnes and noble I got your borderline PD workbook and it feels so grounding. I appreciate you! ✨
@@nyedueldiew1907 What makes you think that? Of course you can. It’s called “co-morbidity”. “As many as 40% of people with BPD have NPD as well. When BPD and NPD co-occur, someone is likely to have a specific subtype of NPD known as covert, or vulnerable, narcissism” - by NIH article called “Comorbidity borderline-narcissistic personality disorder” and another article by talkspace. I dang stopped eating my bomb ass lays with chili to write this dang paragraph for you lmao
@@ss3032-d9g My fiancé and my mom urged me to. It’s still hard but improvement is possible. At first I didn’t want to change, but now I’m starting to get a better perception of life with more sessions. Starting to accept improvement
As someone with quiet BPD I second this. I have never been in a genuine fight yet, but all I did was look at this girl who was making a scene and take a few steps toward her and she ran off.
It happened a few times at work (fast food, gas station). In my case it looked like a seizure: suddenly I lost it and my body did a few spazms on its' own. No one got hurt. Still it was pretty awful to completely lost control over your body... Thanks to therapy I recognize irritation long before it evolves into explosion of rage and I don't experience it like that anymore
You will heal in your 50’s. All of this tremendously difficult and unnecessary chaos of others will be locked out by firm boundaries. Find independence and income. Isolate in safety so no one gets unnecessarily hurt and blameful. Life is , and has to be manageable , HAPPY, EASY, SIMPLE. Blessings.
I'm glad to hear about quiet Bpd. I tend to exhibit quite a bit of the "quiet" symptoms. I think that's why I received my diagnosis very late in life. There is one thing I don't quite understand. I'm not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but are you able to do for others? What you can't do for yourself? I attend school for psych, and I work in the mental health field. I work with many individuals who suffer from chronic or severe mental illness. Mostly schizophrenia and at work I do so well. I am able to lead groups, give meds, help others manage their emotions, and work through traumas, but I can't seem to do it for myself. It's like something in my brain is not clicking. I am patient, calm, efficient, and I sure know my stuff at work but when it comes to myself I'm lost. What is this? Lol. Why can I not transfer this knowledge over? And manage my personal life as well as I do my work life. I take nothing personal at work so maybe that's the difference. Does anyone else experience something similar? Would love to hear general thoughts on this.
There's something to be said about the frame when it comes to being a mental health worker. There are rules & guidelines that are clear generally which can help with the anxiety around being 'perfect'. You may also know how to regulate for others but may struggle to regulate for yourself. Having BPD doesn't mean you're heartless, on the contrary you may have an immense amount of empathy for others but may struggle to have it for yourself. A book I can recommend is: Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors. It's extremely interesting and posits that we're all made up of parts & so you're 'working self' may be extremely capable and regulated where as maybe you're day to day self or your inner-child may need some care. Hope that clarifies a few things (I'm not a psychotherapist but a clinical counselor/art therapist & I work with clients that struggle with BPD, ADHD, ASD)
@@DrDanielFox I think OP might've actually been memeing, making a little tongue-in-cheek joke? Specifically with their last sentence. Admitting to having qBPD, while engaging in a manner instead consistent with cNPD. I could be wrong, and often am, but it's giving "inside joke" energy.
I was BPD and my sister is covert narc. I often envy her to be able to share her pain so easily and think so highly about herself, without realizing her insecurity. She drains me a lot. Gosh. I didnt realized we look similar on the outside to people.
To Dr Fox: An Unsung Hero Sir you are doing an efficient job at removing the stigma that not only surrounds BPD but Cluster B in general. We truly need more therapists and educators like you, your perspective is enlightening to the ones suffering in the sense that it gives new life to the individual - one that is free of guilt and shame and only filled with compassion for oneself whereas to their loved ones it is a blanket of reassurence and illuminating insight into the pain of personality disorders and mental illnesses. As a Borderline in remission today, I feel deeply obliged and will never be able to thank you enough for all your support through your YT, IG pages and other free content available as well as your books and card decks. In a world that once felt like quicksand with loopholes waiting for my downfall to a world of dreams and oppurtunities a melting pot for humanity, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Lots of Love, blessings and good wishes from India. May you be well always. Amen.
My daughter has BPD and I’m trying to learn everything I can about it and ways to “help” her since she is 28 and will be living together for life at this point. Thank you for putting this video out there.
As someone with BPD whose parents never pursued deeper understanding I commend you and am so glad your daughter has a mom who is willing to learn. Best advice I can give is to avoid the temptation to take things personally, there are many ways a BPD sufferer has different needs than someone without and just because something is received badly or triggers an unwanted response it doesn't mean you did anything wrong, just means they need "special" treatment sometimes to be able to feel and receive the love and support and guidance you're trying to give. It is the most treatable personality disorder, and many of the things holding her back can be healed past and learned around with diligent support 🤗
@@timweedon2785Stop generalizing. Just because you had a bad experience with someone it doesn't mean everyone with the disorder is the same. How do you even know the person who hurt you had BPD? Are you a doctor trained to diagnose? Lastly, even if the person you knew has BPD, that person may also have comorbid disorders that heighten or worsen their behaviors/symptoms. This is why it's so important not to generalize.
Your message delivery style captures audience attention and conveys you’re not just an industry leader but have true compassion and passion for the people you help and others. Compare this to a 5 year old video on your channel. Good job. Free ego inflation that’s well deserved.
I'm having to watch it a couple time to make sure I'm grasping ... butni feel it's because I'm being to black and white about things lol ty for making this video I've been needing one like this for a min so really ty for the insight .... it's hard because truly I see alot of the bpd connection but when you bring up talking about how broken they are I have tk admit I go there once I've stuffed for to long and finally snap on my fp .. or other person I might have been overly enmeshed with.... I also have a tendency to talk about my medical issues alot from.my perspective for awareness as I don't really like poor baby or let me fix thay for you makes me feel unsafe or I'm unsure of the motive or how long they will be there to help.... when I was younger I'd be ok with letting them help but as I age I feel it's more of a chance for abandonment or rejection so I try to avoid asking for help .... and I do avoid alot .... it's been one of the bigger issues as I age and get sicker ..... I guess the hardest part to separate is even if I do get interaction about my struggles I never become overt .... I don't want the attention though I can't deny it is comforting to have others show they are invested for long term understanding of my life ..... inguess that's why so meny have had a eazy time connecting me to narssasisum though I'm not ..... as a male bordelrine I guess I might have some similar tactics ..... when I feel my partner or really close connections arnt being understanding along with me putting my things aside and adapting to make sure the other peole feel happy and loved so I can feel secure in not losing them or them disapproving of who I am ..... I just struggle to feel I can trust how they say they feel about me and that lack of trust make me worry they will leave me and like you said the emptiness I struggle with will get louder.... cuz I don't fully get rid of the emptiness I'm jusy good at making it and seeming secure .... why inhave to avoid makes it so I'm less likely to build up internal tension ..... it'd also hard because when i do snap it's very destructive... braking things yelling loud about how they dint care or arnt listening to my side or hurting myself .... but most the time I used to do drugs or have sex ..... non of this is by choice I'm just self aware.... I learned this cuz I figured out ifni can't do my dbt skills and separate before I snap and come back latter to discuss and meta communicate with said perosn I'm less likely to go to a extreme form of destruction and petulance..... I'm just not a person who seeks adoration or someone to take care of me .... but I do need peoke to prove they will be there for me in the hardest of times ..... been a hard road.... ageb grate video I'll have tk keep watching it to make sure it sticks .... I also think I'm gonna try and minimize the amout of time I talk about my illness.... mabye that will help prevent peole from reading it as fishing for adoration..... ty for the insight as allways Dr fox
Oof... I was recently diagnosed with BPD and I am definitely the Quiet BPD type. And figuring out that my ex was a covert narcissist is shocking, but also explains so much. What a terrible mismatched pair. So enlightening.
I see a lot of “I am self aware” comments here. I would gently remind people that being self aware here doesn’t equate to change. Knowing a thing doesn’t magically create affective empathy or the desire to change. That is the mistake that people who act in empathy and live it get fooled by. “They understand how they are harming people so that automatically means they will change, because that is what I would do.” You are stuck in a projection trap.
@@ShivaSolentei This is really true. I was stuck in my head for a while and dissociated, so actually taking steps toward healing and getting into my body (which was required to do so) was utterly terrifying. A lot of us tend to feel as though we can think our way out of a problem 😂 If only it were that easy.
thank you for educating us about many types of PDs without demonizing any of them. people see behavior of NPD, BPD, and most Cluster A and B PDs and just don't see what's behind it, and they just assume they must be a horrible toxic person who is in some fixed villainous mind that is just purely bad. as always, harmful behavior isn't excused for anyone, but i just appreciate how much you and others are destigmatizing diagnoses that for too long have just been seen as "this means you're some deranged inhuman evil that is entirely separate from any mormal person". human minds are so complicated and we're learning new things every day, and i believe i've never met someone who has no reason behind their behavior, or that it's an organized, calculated, intentional choice. i think most of us are kind of stumbling in the dark a lot and aren't very mindful of our actions or what drives them. plenty of people don't have a great grasp or control on their behavior and why, and it's admittedly hard to always be conscious of what's going on inside us. learning and understanding is everything, and i appreciate you and everyone who makes such an effort to explain and educate people, and even more, find a way to help people who don't share the diagnosis to understand and empathize.
This helped so much untangle my family system. The term Covert narcissist is being thrown around and not used properly, these comparative examples make sense. I've been trying to understand the difference between a parent who is either Covert narcissist or dismissive avoidance attachment style and I have my own skewed perception of people's behavior and intentions. Secrets...weird indirect communication, I'm seeing it more now and couldn't pinpoint what it meant and got extremely frightened when reading about Covert narcissists and wondering if that was the problem. But now with thud video I see it's coming from someone else..grandmother, the daughter to granddaughter. The middle is emotionally closed off. Talk about patterns!
I relate to both at the same time 😅 About the manipulation part, I usually realize I've been overdramatizing the moment that people show me emotional support, because then my needs get met, my mood stabilizes, and then I get a more clear sight of myself and realize, I'm not that lonely (e.g.). So no, it's not my conscious intention, I do believe that stuff in the moment.
PERFECT. Covert Narc here. Just adding that the maladaptive behaviour is not conscious. I didn’t know I behaved that way not untill I became self aware.
@ZacerysTheFirst they didn't say anything to blame shift. I'm sure that person is aware enough to know that they're not making excuses for anything, and do not need to be shamed by a stranger for simply chiming in to confirm a video's accuracy and lend some insight into the firsthand experience of it.
Dear dr. Fox I really enjoy your youtube channel. And I would like to ask you a question. I have read that bpd symptoms might diminish over time. Yet I often see stories online about older people that still suffer from bpd and are still violent. What I would like to know - what are the chances of symptom reduction due to aging?
Thank you very much for this video 🙏 I've been studying narcissism for few years but I haven't heard about Silent Borderline Narcissistic Disorder. It helps me a lot! Now, I can understand why a person I know seems to have narcissistic traits, but shows real empathy. She realizes often that she's under a strong and destructive influence of her narcissistic mother, but when you try helping her, showing her books, videos and articles to understand narcissism and how to help oneself, she gives up! You're right a BPSD person wants that "reward" - love bombing of the narcissistic mother and keeping her in the victim's scenario. Now I understand this meccanism! Thank you!!! ❤
@saskiavanlieshoud390 Before you critisize, it's nice to write a polite comment first... you know? I am an educated person, still a human being. I ment borderline, of course. I'm referring in my comment to doctor's video. It's just a mistake I made as I was writing. I haven't noticed it. Sure, bipolar symptom is different. I've just corrected my mistake. Have a good day.
It is like being on a Waltzer ride.....and the guy comes and spins you and spins and spins you....and your screaming STOP STOP STOP...but he does not STOP....Just like the crap that goes around in my head!...just around. around I go......I just learnt I am Quiet BPD....Thank you Dr Fox
Hi Doc, I wanted to thank you for your content here on YT. I've absorbed a lot of material regarding narcissism, being the now 49 year old son of a narcissistic father. But so far, your content is the one I find the most relevant and useful to what I've been through and am going through. As I can't and don't want to separate him from my life for a series of reasons, I'm forced to develop strategies to deal with the difficulty that is dealing with him, while at the same time rebuilding myself from the ground zero state he left my ego into, since it's only recently that I've realized and started to understand how he functions. So again, thank you.
The click bait made me nervous, but you've never steered me wrong....glad I watched. As someone with BPD who has been caught in toxic narcissistic relationships pretty much from birth I appreciate any and all related content, and would like to see more about how some of us are incredibly vulnerable to narcissism (especially covert) and can become caught in a cycle where our core content makes us stick around for the ride regardless of how damaging we know it to be. Love all content and am here for wherever we go next.
I've just received your workbook. The BPD workbook. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed by it but working through it step by step is something I'm going to try to do.
You always talk about insight is key Dr. Fox, truth is I find myself learning from your videos about other people and myself. I hope you know that you are providing people with a lot of insight and grace. The way you speak about these disorders is very compassionate and helps me be a bit less quick to judge. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and love.
This is me. Rather I'm shedding that "me" and trying to learn about my maladaptive behaviours and core beliefs in order to overcome and change. I only got to know myself a couple of years back after a real tragedy happened. Thank you Dr Fox for your priceless effort and work you do. Just from watching your vidoes which are so empathetic and insightful plus digging the web on the topic of ACEs & attachment therory I was able to make sense of how I messed up most of my last 30 years or so. I'm also doing a course on mindfulness which helped me to slow down and connect with myself and the world of emotions. I still got work to do - the hardest one being that I am worthy and able to achieve (struggling with eating issues). One of your vidoes which made me hit rock bottom and absolutely left me stripped of everything (dont know if this is a right way to express, english not being my first language) was "Parenting with BPD". I broke down in tears after watching it cos finally, finally after struggling so many years with my kids I found an answer as to why parenting was such a difficult thing for me. Again thank you and may God give you the best in this life and the next. Edit: Still slowly watching and processing the clip and wondering - can someone being raised by an overt narcissistic parent become themselves a quiet BPD?? So much of what you're saying fits mum and me
Hi Dr. Fox! Thank you so much for this explanation and for all your videos. This explained the differences between my mom and I honestly. I identify deeply Quiet BPD. I tend to take a few steps forward and then fall back with treatment. When people give me suggestions for help I am like “yes please anything” and look externally for answers because I was taught not to trust myself. - I get burnt out with taking the steps and can be quite lazy, I admit. I have learned helplessness. It’s also interesting being autistic because I lack cognitive empathy but feel emotional and affective empathy intensely. I’m super awkward at showing affection in neurotypical ways. When it comes to “attention” I crave it for safety / abandonment in my close relationships as you said. When that’s triggered I implode and feel cold. Then I feel deep shame. Aside from that I am rather uncomfortable and tend to not feel anything when I have accomplishments.
Short term reward/long term consequences. So what I experience. Except I don’t have the guts to move on, so I’ve been with the long term consequence for about 20 years because I am terrified of being on my own. @Dr Fox, what do I do? 😢
The inner child part of me who was abused by rageful borderline father and dismissive super perfectionistic mother wants to scream everytime my pain is pathologised, but I get it. I was diagnosed with BPD, Autism, ADD and I believe I have vulnerable narc traits as well. A lot of OCD loops as well. Not saying this to get attention or sympathy, just getting my thoughts out in a matter of fact way. I want to get out of my own head and just be normal. I'm seeing a therapist, I do my own work at home too. Still, it's hard not to feel sometimes like no matter what I do, no matter how many positive changes I make It'll never be good enough because in the end I'll still be a "broken" cluster B who's inherently less valuable and less "human" than a neurotypical healthy person. How can I ever know if what I'm saying is correct? If I'm bothering people? How can I trust my own judgement on anything if it's true that my brain is broken? So all I do is default to others, because I think "they must know better than me, because I have a mental illness, so I'll do whatever they say". And then if it backfires or that person ends up abusing me, I still blame myself because "well it's because of my disorder that I didn't see that coming!" I drive myself insane and mostly avoid people so they dont have to deal with my weird energy. I keep it all to myself thougy irl, other than a brief description. I don't like to show any emotion at all unless I have to
So the best thing for anyone who has been hurt or is in an emotional distress is to get the hell away from them and recognize that they are damaged goods and to save yourself. People with challenges are difficult and undeserving of building relationships because they have been abused or abandoned. Got it.
@ I was referring to myself. I at times needed safe people because I myself am an adult survivor of abuse and abandonment. And I’ve lived through a childhood of violence and gas lighting. I have had people say they love me when I’m ding great and winning at life. However when ever I’ve been in need of emotional supports and even just a hug at times I’ve been shamed for it. So I told people at fully love and desire to be close with that I at times needed saftey and stability and I actually desired feeling connected and accepted, and that went over like a flying brick. So I learned that is emotional distress is happening best to breath into a paper bag and handle your shit. You’re born alone, you die alone. No need bringing anyone else into anything deeper than a good time. Show up when needed sure, but don’t expect people to care or understand where you may need or desire connection. That’s what dogs are for. Men should not need emotional connection. Like I stated, people with emotional pain are damaged goods and are undeserving of building relationships because they have been abandoned or abused. If it were not for complex trauma, we really wouldn’t have anyone to be concerned about staying away from at all. Sorry to come off like a jerk, but that’s the jist of it. Casual is cool. Actually getting to the heart of the matter is scary and can be emotional or even painful for people who are empathetic. Healing is a solo journey.
So what if my inner content is shame, guilt AND fear of abandonment? I constantly worry I am not good enough for my friends and they will lose interest in me, also I feel ashamed for not being as interesting or 'alive' and I feel guilty for it because I cannot contribute as much to the friendship as the other person. I worry my partner/date will leave me, because I am a bad person, also I feel ashamed for being like this, and I feel guilty all the time. Its very much linked.
I was in a 6 1/2 yr relationship with one of these personality disorders -the love o my life. I’m 63 now he’s 59. We’ve had a blast and it’s been loving and fun, until he ‘splits’ So when this happens he discards me. 3 x in the last 3 yrs. June 1 he moved me to a lake cottage to be closer to his horse farm. Aug 3 he splits/discards me. Ghosts me. On.the.same.day: He picks up an acquaintance of mine - she is now living my sweet and wonderful life. I now live in his tiny town and don’t want to go anywhere out here because I’ll run into them together 💔 …I know but she doesn’t know but I’ve learned that he has a few on the side Waiting further answer to prayer on what/where to go in life next.
Yes I’ve seen all of this 1st hand. The telling of the suffering and how i don’t understand the extent exactly howmDr Fox described. I’ve also seen this person internalize & push everything down. Of the 9 qualifiers for BPD they have at least 8 if not all 9 and many characteristics of at least 3 of the subtypes. When i 1st discovered what BPD was i then started realizing this person also had “narcissistic patterns or traits” also. Been learning more lately on Narcissism and feeling like they are more of the Covert narcissist .. and the manipulation and lies are rampant. The Plot .. often when they’re planning on doing something they don’t want me to know about, a plot or story begins to get laid out earlier in the day .. then they go m.i.a. out doing whatever and if i choose to suggest even in the calmest non confrontational way possibly known to man that they’re not being honest with me .. all heck breaks loose .. or when they need/want something from me the honey starts getting poured, usually 1st thing in the morning. The ask comes later that day.
I've been people pleasing for about two decades. Now that I'm putting down some boundaries and standing up for myself, I feel like a narcissist, lol. Just goes to show how conditioned you can be.
Could you make a video about relationships between these two personalities? I have BPD and my ex was a covert vulnerable and malignant narcissist, I’m just getting out of a two year relationship with this person and it was hell. Originally I went into the relationship thinking he had BPD but then after all the lies, gaslighting, cheating and manipulation I discovered he was actually a covert narcissist. The perpetual victim who cried about all the pain but never wanted solutions or to do any treatment to get better.
Great video! Summarizes both very well 👍🏻 One question - have you observed in your praxis whether narcissistic parents produce more often borderline children? Especially this combination - covert narcissistic parent putting all his anger, contempt and negativity about life on his child and the child has no other choice but to stuff it inside and hence internalizes the chaos, anger and shame of his parent, which turns the child into quit borderline, could it be? 🤷
@@kimlarso very interesting point! 😯 Could you please explain in what way does the borderline fail to reach narcissism? Which points are missing and why does this happen…🤔
I met a girl and I think she is a covert-narcissist. She is very pretty and the whole world has to come and comfort her because she is suffering from some pain. The crazy thing is, it's a bit that character flaw to attracts me to her. And it's the challenge to deal with that!
It's interesting how some character traits can draw us in, even if they come with challenges. Just remember to take care of yourself while navigating that dynamic!
@@DrDanielFox my response comes from having awoken from a 7 year relationship with a covert narcissist. Finally reaching a place of empathy and authentic self without being at all affected by her shenanigans. And I have used your videos today to find immense growth. Realizing it’s been narc abuse my whole life.
@@DrDanielFox It is how it is with the narcicissts.. however that girl has helped to make better music videos, train better in the gym, eat healthier, and I cannot share anything of that with her, that's bitter! -- The crazy things is SHE helped me, not her false self. But to get through to her is like punching your fists against the concrete of her false self.
I have found in life there are two kinds of people, and I wonder if narcissism is what is the dividing line, so if anyone knows the answer, please let me know. The two kinds of people are "This specific bad thing happened to me so it aught to happen to everyone or its not fair" vs "this specific bad thing happened to me, so I'm going to do whatever I can to keep it from happening to others." I'm sure it could be caused by a variety of conditions, but from what I've seen, it's almost always a narcissist with the first statement.
How many children / adukt chikdren with narcassistic parents attempt suicide or commit suicide every year? I know someone with 2 narcassistic parents and he commited suicide. Itn his suicide letter he said that he now was no n longer a reason for any future harm to his parents employment and overall life. How common is this? He made sure there was no saving him. He was always quiet and never complained about anything. It was a shock to get his suicide letter in the mail from another country. He had me deliver the letter to his parebts since his parents asked him why he could not be like me. INwas far from perfect and still have a long way to go. It is very heartbreaking.
I'm beginning to understand that all of these disorders are essentially bred from the same core things. They are just....branches of the same disordered pattern of attachment formed in childhood. It's a spectrum. With some people manifesting more "borderline" traits and others more "narcissistic" traits but it's all the same fucking thing. Took me 3 years to figure this out but I'm convinced this is the case. People want neatly defined boxes and labels to fit people into and that's not how mental illness works. Even people with the same mood disorder can vary wildly. All cluster b's overlap and are at their core the same "illness". They are all grappling with the same issues. Sincerely - a doomed cluster b member .
I agree with all but the fact that you're doomed. (But yeah, the person I knew who checks every box on both sides of the list in this video- I witnessed the tail end of him expressing more of his quiet bpd side, who fawned/people-pleased a ton and was totally codependently enmeshed with with his very narcissistic ex til she broke up with him and he fell apart.....yet then observed him express more of his very hot to increasingly cold covert npd side with me which initially lured me out of platonic friendship & into falling for him once i was sunk into codependent caretaker mode. I will say he seemed to have an internal battle btwn bottling up his suffering & letting me know just enough to fuel my caretaking, because overall he did still try to hide his hurt. I got burned in the end after discovering a lot of deception and thus facing my misplaced emotional investment. I was the band-aid on his npd collapse after his break up & once he felt like himself again, I was discarded for a bunch of other girls. That's not a sob story, lol. I'm grateful for how much it allowed me to learn and heal about myself. I shared it as an example of the way someone can vacillate btwn cluster b traits. So even within one person, the spectrum can shift depending on who they're paired up with and what's going on in their life.)
@@imm0rtalitypassi0n exactly. I've been in relationships with "healthy" people and behaved very narcissistically. I didn't do this intentionally. It's a pattern of learned behavior and dysfunctional ways of dealing with attachments to people. And I've been in relationships with other cluster B's and was much more "borderline" in those. My fear of abandonment being triggered by their behavior and the desperate need to hold on to them. It's a deeply rooted attachment disorder that comes from unstable parenting and you're right that it manifests differently based on your partner.
@levity90 yep. I understand. I once told him during a brief, heartfelt convo about how terrified he was of being used again, that I understood he only learned two modes of relating "being used, or doing the using", as if there was no in-between..aka black & white relationship dynamics. I do wish him the best and I still have hope for all of us. As long as we're alive, we have a chance at healing the bullsh*t we went through that forged unhealthy patterns. ❤️🩹
It's mind fu*king trying to figure out whether my estranged husband ( who has finally left with his former divorce client ) is borderline ( which I always thought he was during our 25 yr toxic marriage) The more I research, the more narcissistic he seems to be. He also seems to be grandiose, a trait that's on display now more than ever on social media.
Thank you for validating to me that my mother is, in fact, a covert narcissist. I already knew that, but too much proof is never enough because she's really good at making me think I'm crazy.
That's an interesting observation! Many individuals can display traits from multiple personality disorders, and it's important to consider their unique experiences and challenges.
Restart :) Progress is not linear, there will be setbacks but you have the opportunity every day to start again. It’s hard I know, but very very possible
BPD with narcissistic traits is the most dangerous combo. They have no empathy and usually it is these BPDs that are the most cruel, and is capable of discarding people at will. Without narcissistic traits, BPDs would at least feel guilt and recover and could even apologize.
Don't forget all of the psychodrama where they project their issues onto others in order to work out their own. And then if you finally respond to all of their misattributions, they feel validated and react, for them justifiably, to the validation of your issues. "I knew it, you were always the problem," and they then take their drama to the next relationship and effectively destroy that too, leaving waves of psychological damage in their wake.
Could you please do a video on how to tolerate intense negative emotions effectively e.g sadness that last fot hours on end? Feeling sadness is exhausting and suffocating, and can make us feel 'stuck' and as such suicid^×l. I try to remind myself of the notion of acceptance and change, but is difficult and all I think about is how to basically unalive myself, and how much I hate feeling things and being alive.
Certain breathing exercises can be really helpful. They won't fix the root problem, but they can get you through the hardest minutes and hours. Look into how to do the "physiological sigh", and "box breathing". Super simple excercises that really work to help regulate the nervous system during intense times. ❤️🩹
@ArchAngel435 that may be true for some people, but maybe hard to access or find? And regular yoga might be unhelpful for some, as severe trauma and suid*d@l ideations are contraindicated when it comes to "feeling the emotions" as people on the edge of unaliving are experiencing extreme emotional overload. Any meditative practices that are meant to draw someone inward into their own mind and body. Meaning...sometimes that stillness and targeted feeling of emotion is literally dangerous for people on the edge of unaliving themselves. It's much more recommended that they use more active movement and breathing techniques that help get someone OUT of their head, rather than in it. Things like dancing around- even in silly ways. Literally shaking out the energy. Walking or jogging outdoors is a big one. And being around people...even if you don't have healthy friends to be around...go walk around a supermarket or sit in a restaurant if need be, but ideally join a free activity group or something where you can interact with safe people...even without the therapy or psychology factor involved. Isolation creates tachykinin in the brain...a chemical that causes extremely negative feelings and thoughts that can make self-harm feelings much worse.
I was just suddenly dumped by my girlfriend and always knew she might have bpd but there was never outward rage. But the way she broke up with me and her behavior the weeks leading up to it and moments of extreme selfishness and other things over the months, wow...i'm realizing she might actually have covert narcissism AND quiet bpd. Is it possible for both to co-occur? Do these people ever heal? I feel like my world was turned up side down from this person and find myself blaming myself for the dissolution of the relationship though I know that's not true. I feel like I've been brainwashed and devalued and discarded. I felt like no matter what I did (which was give her all of my love and attention and care) it was never good enough. I feel like I failed all these "tests" and found myself often shocked by things she would say to me in these multiple hour discussions that were excruciating. Will I ever recover from this? What does this say about me that I got involved with and stayed with and imagined marrying this person? my self esteem feels shattered on one hand, on the other I feel like I'm finally back to myself and out of this confusing haze, and the other I still love and miss this person and believe all people deserve love and care regardless of diagnoses. Where do I go from here? This video was incredibly helpful in beginning to make sense of things.
It sounds like you’ve been through a really tough experience, and it's completely normal to feel confused and hurt. Remember that healing takes time, and reaching out for support can be incredibly helpful. You’re not alone in this.
By the way, I like very much your video editing! It's really helpful for people who learn things in a visual way 👏 Vero good! Just one favour, please keep long description for few seconds more so that we can read it in time and remember easily. Thank you!
That's an interesting question! There's definitely a growing awareness around mental health issues like BPD in Gen Z, and many factors could contribute to underdiagnosis. It's crucial to continue conversations about mental health to ensure everyone gets the support they need.
I dont think they intentionally hurt. But intent does not negate pain. If I run over your foot by accident, I’m sure it still hurts even though I didn’t intend to hurt you, so I will apologize. Yet they will not, this is what is very difficult. They need a lot of love and they need to have a willingness to confront their demons. If they don’t, they’ll drive away everyone that cares about them simply out of fear. That’s sad. I used to see her as ruthless, but I’ve come to recognize she’s simply the little girl that never got the love she needed. I hope she finds love and peace. Shit hurts not being able to take away pain from someone you love, even when they’re hurting you.
Thank you very much for sharing your insights and knowledge filled videos and streams !! Intelligent and professional !! Outstanding !! Greetings from California … I wish you and folks good health , success and happiness !! Much Love ✌️😎💕
See... there is no winning. If I was neglected as a child at home and ruthlessly bullied everyday in school. Then bullied and routinely dismissed and disrespected as an adult for having a disability, according to this I'm not supposed to talk about the micro aggressions and disrespect I face on a daily basis whenever I interact with people, I'm supposed to tell myself that "this is my life and I can't change it. Just get used to the verbal abuse. Let it roll off your back and love everyone like you're not broken inside". And then. I'm labeled as a narcissist because society is Ableist and it's normal and acceptable to talk condescendingly and dismissively to disabled people, and choose for us and deny us opportunities and resources, then gaslight us by telling us we're not trying hard enough. HOW TF and I'm supposed to have self esteem and confidence in a world that refuses to allow me to excel at anything. If I know I'm capable but denied a respectable place in society because others perceive me as incompetent because of my disability, of course it's going to look like narcissism. How am I not supposed to feel bitter snd resentful after a long lifetime of being ignored, shunned, overlooked, dismissed, never rewarded, and never getting my needs met. Claiming that my suffering is no different than what others go through is total BS gaslighting. We can acknowledge that others in our circumstances experience the same kind of emotional abuse from others, and yet it does not remove our suffering. The fact that others suffer is in no way a comfort. All you do is prove that the mote should be wider, keep people further away, avoid vulnerability, be extremely self-reliant because no one cares and no one ever will. We are unlovable and the world would prefer we just crawled off and died alone.
Is there any crossover between qBPD and Dysthymia (PDD)? I was diagnosed with Dysthymia about 15 years ago and then 4 years ago my diagnosis was changed to qBPD. Could dysthymia lead to or cause qBPD?
It's definitely a complex topic! There can be overlapping symptoms between qBPD and Dysthymia, and it's great that you're seeking to understand how they relate. Consulting with a mental health professional can provide more clarity on your specific situation.
I’m not an expert like Dr. Fox, but a lot of my relatives have CPTSD and some very likely BPD and workaholism is def a thing. It’s a family culture thing, but also definitely used an escape for deep abandonment pain / striving for perfectionism along with alcohol. For me it’s been love addiction and binge eating - I’ve rejected workaholism because of the family culture. I’ve watched videos where people with BPD have defined themselves through their job due to lack of identity outside. Honestly, although one thing should probably not entirely define you, that seems healthier than letting a partner do that.
Hello dr. Fox. First of all I dearly thank you for your content, I find that it is one of a few channels who talks not in a judgemental way about these issues. My question is, is it possible that one can „switch“ between a quite type of bpd to a different type of bpd? Also the more I watch these type of videos the more I see certain traits in people around me, and also myself, that I need to be careful not to judge everyone as „ this or that“, if that makes sense. Is it possible that a borderline also tends to „overcomplain“ about their suffer , maybe from abuse that still went on, but really tries to get out of the „ I hate my life „ mindset ? Thank you and keep up the great work, it helps many to be more honest , in a gentle leading way, to oneself.
Can you talk about false hope with BPD? Struggling to move on/heal after I chose to break up with my favorite person last year. Racing thoughts, negativity, self harm. Not sure what to do to overcome the lingering feelings that I belong with her
@@vanessap8717 I haven’t ever been more manic in my life, I do not want to be in that situation again. I am still unhealthy and relationships are for healthy people.
Would future faking be on the NPD side or BPD? My ex definitely fit the quietBPD variety. But she also did a lot of future faking. Is future faking part of idealization? She seemed to even do it near the end very close to the discard. And so does not seem part of idealization... so maybe NPD + BPD together?
As someone who is working toward recovery with Quiet BPD / BPD traits, typically in the idealization phase when untreated is intense infatuation and it doesn’t feel fake for the PWBPD. There can definitely be love bombing but it’s not done with underlying intent. It’s a childlike infatuation. This is not to say it doesn’t impact the other party negatively. PWBPD including myself tend to have Fearful Avoidant Attachment which is more flip floppy. There’s a lot of guilt when it comes to the push pull. There is a desire yet fear for love and closeness. People with NPD are more prone to lying and intentional manipulation because of grandiosity. They crave attention and think they deserve it as us PWbpders are like lost abandoned children looking for a parent. When NPD devalue / split there likely isn’t rumination and guilt after. I know for me when I have split (and my splits happen quietly) - even for “good” reasons at time - I feel so much guilt. My brain has protected me from any form of abandonment or flashback from my past . This does not make it healthy or okay, but it shines light on the difference. People with BPD can be manipulative sometimes even subconsciously because of their core fears and engage in either subtle or loud attention seeking behaviors depending on subtype. I would ask yourself as to whether how she showed emotion and whether or not she showed genuine shame or guilt during or after. I cannot speak for everyone with Quiet BPD, but when devaluation/deactivation occurs there’s sometimes devaluation of our self as well. I know for me I have pushed away stable partners because of the unfamiliarity and because I didn’t feel “butterflies”. I hope you’re doing okay after your relationship and find the answers you need.
@@purplefinch29 thank you so much for sharing your perspective. The behavior that my ex showed me sounds a lot like what you describe. I think she means more towards the BPD than NPD. Right now I'm stuck in the place where I've been pushed away. I guess it's because I had to leave town and it hurt her. Definitely when I left town each time (This was the second time I had to do it) She would begin to have negative thoughts. Yesterday I discovered that she had posted on a hookup site asking for masochistic sex. She did this in the interim between my first and second visits unbeknownst to me. But amazingly after that she somehow came back to me. I have no idea what she's been up to for the past 3 months but I suppose more of that. I've read and I understand that those actions are self-harm. But also they are a way for her to regulate her emotions. And for her to feel like she has somehow more control which is hard to understand. But I guess that's what is supposed to happen for.her. But I've read also that what happens after a partner starts to feel this shame and guilt is that they will take the shame and guilt and then project it back onto their ex. So all of the bad things that she did she may be blaming me for. And that explains why she does not want to see me. Before I discovered about the masochistic sex yesterday, I was looking forward to meeting her again and working with her to help her and give her a stable place where she could continue her treatment from. But it seems like she's really hooked on some drugs + some very self-harming behavior. I would still reach out at this point and I will, but I imagine there must be a big wall up against me if she is going to project those things to me. The first time I left every time I would try to contact her. She would not really be happy about it so this time I didn't contact her. Now I realize that might have been a mistake because that means it's been 3 months since she's heard from me. She told me she doesn't want to see me and she thinks will never be back together. But then she left me unblocked that day. So it's a strange push-pull dynamic still strangely. She's a very sweet person and a lot of fun to be with. Sure she likes sex but also she's quite clever and creative. She has a special sort of energy. She is Portuguese and she's been really good. Introducing me to things. Any tips on how I might try to reach out? I read that when someone with BPD pushes you away often they want you to fight to get them back. After my first absence, we reconnected quite strongly and she made an effort to re-idualize me. Now I realize that you don't actually want to be re-idualized and better to just try to keep it steady.
@@surfreadjumpsleep You are very welcome. This sounds like a really difficult situation and I’m sorry! I don’t want to judge or speculate too much, but she sounds like she could have a different subtype of BPD? When you left town did you say you’d be back? That likely triggered feelings of abandonment, but I’m curious how that went down! I’ve never personally dealt with addiction aside from codependency and love addiction of course. Addiction on top of untreated BPD can definitely complicate things and it make it difficult for someone to be in a functional relationship. It sounds like you care a lot about her and are able to see her good qualities which is really beautiful. It’s also very kind of you to offer her a place to land / a place of stability. However, as someone who has parentified partners unknowingly before, IMHO she has to learn to become at least relatively stable before engaging in a romantic relationship. I’ve had to cut myself off from dating to get in touch with the wounded parts of myself. As long as she runs from those parts of herself and doing the hard work, she won’t make a whole lot of progress. Healing isn’t linear, of course, but yeah. I’ve realistically told myself I have years to go. The reality of BPD is it is rooted in attachment wounding and in my opinion a disorder of traumatic attachment, which makes romantic relationships extremely difficult. This doesn’t mean her or I don’t have good qualities. It sounds like you’ve shared some good times. Based on the various ruptures you’ve had so far, it seems like she isn’t in a place where she’s willing to commit to you or her recovery. I’m a believer that to recover from BPD we need to do deep inner child work which can take years. We feel deep sense of self loathing and sorrow which makes us almost entirely reliant on our partners for validation and reassurance which is never healthy. I wish both of you peace.
@@surfreadjumpsleep I also want to add - the idealization and devaluation (splitting) is actually a defense mechanism. I’ve learned after self reflection we do it because our brains don’t want to accept the potential of the person hurting us in any big way. “He’s perfect! He would never hurt me!” I said about my past partner, who betrayed me in big ways. It’s not done from a bad place - people stigmatize splitting when it’s a trauma response. To heal we need to be okay with the potential of loss. Loss is always painful, but it may or may not happen. That requires *deep* healing. The unhealed parts of me still don’t wanna accept that.
Dr Fox - another great explanation from you. I have watched many of your videos and appreciate the effort and the warmth that you put into them. I have a question I'd love you to answer. I completely understand about diagnostic criteria (being a qualified counsellor in the UK), but I'd appreciate your take on this: I know someone who is frequently vacillating between both being a narcissist AND a borderline - so is she (a) one or the other with a co-occurence of the other, or (b) does she have both? I note that Otto Kernberg, Sam Vaknin et al are moving towards conjoining Narcissism with Borderline - what is your view of this please?
I’m a former army Ranger and I have BPD. My girlfriend is small, soft and… just, I don’t… I don’t know how to tell her how I feel, I don’t know how to hold it in, and I don’t want to hurt her. I’ve never touched her and I don’t want to. She lives with a werewolf and I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to lose her
I just subscribed. I love someone diagnosed with BPD, multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar, and anxiety and I am SURE… covert narcissism. Rejection sensitivity causes me to have a breakdown! The fear of abandonment is hijacking this person's soul!Not to mention crack and fentanyl addiction!. Guess what? Im fkd too! Not going to be part of this relationship any longer! My cat and God are ENOUGH!
I display traits of both quiet BPD and covert NPD and regarding the manipulation being intentional, I personally do not realize that I’m being manipulative in the moment but after my wife explains it to me I have to admit that my behavior sounds very manipulative.
I limit my acting out to making patterns with cigarettes on my arm. it totally removes you from that overwhelming emotional immersion. I abuse drugs too i guess. I don't like destroying my relationships, even the bad ones where you could find some justification in getting a bit rowdy, live in dignity or die in despair. but idk, I'm sure I'm as blind as the most grandiose of npds. I just want to know my negative maladaptive toxic unhealthy patterns. the pathology interrupts being who you really are, and I hate when people don't know me but meet a sub personality or not even someone I am at all, and that is their contention
But isn’t shame a big o pop art of BPD as well? I still find it hard to distinguish between the two and do not know where to put myself 🙈 I am definitely seeking validation and help, but isn’t that a normal human need as well to some extent? I am so afraid to take advantage of others at the same I need help because I am really struggling every day. I do not want to hurt others or make them feel used by me!
This was really interesting. I’d like to learn more about quiet BPD. I’m wondering what an activated,”explosive” event would look like, and what might trigger it.
It can look like a tantrum, it can be self harm or substance abuse, some run away, some dissociate. I did all of those as a teenager. As an adult, mine often comes out as psychosomatic symptoms - neurologists were looking for MS for 3 years before deciding it was stress/trauma. One time I had a complete psychotic break and called the cops on myself (which is how I got the BPD diagnosis) and then I struggled with hallucinations and dissociation for months afterward. Most of my triggers are sound related. It took me a long time to figure that out. 😅
I’m so lost. I’m diagnosed with BPD, but I relate to a lot of the covert narcissism traits. But mostly to BPD traits. But I don’t fear abandonment. But I am terrified of people not admiring me. My core wound is a very fragile self esteem. Not abandonment. I would rather be admired than loved which I know is more narcissism
Dr. Fox, I had to pause this video as soon as I heard you make the point to ask - I'm an adult child (clinically diagnosed) with BPD who is the child of someone (undiagnosed, but as textbook as they come) with NPD... I've been working my butt off in individual therapy, using your work book, etc, to define and implement boundaries.... My one overtly struggling relationship has always been that with my NPD father. Now, as a mother myself, I have a newly protective nature that begs new input - are my boundaries enough? To protect me as an adult (though they couldn't protect me as a child)? To protect my kids? Could you possibly make a video outing these challenges, as so many of us with BPD grew up with at least one BPD parent?
Im a 3 time diagnosed bpd. I just got out of an abusive relationship with who I suspect to be a covert narcissist. Im still so confused over it all, and i question if i was mid diagnosed and I was actually the problem, and he abused me to retaliate against my abuse. Im so afraid to be a narcissist, and research isn’t very helpful bc there is so much overlap. Youre video went into why and the thinking. And I really appreciate this clarity… id rather have bpd than narcissism
I hope you can reach out to Zoraya Ter Beek to let her know there is hope for people who have BPD. It's so unfortunate to hear that she feels there's no other choice. Thank you for all that you do Mr Fox!
People are just sharing their personal experiences with the disorders they have been diagnosed with. This can be beneficial to others for educational reasons or to simply feel less alone.
@@TempestTempos Nah, I see it more as what Sam Vaknin talks as reaction to shock. - Nightmare is meaningless, senseless and that's why it is frightening. Nightmare has no meaning. There's no rules, there's no structure. A doesn't lead to B, and yet B happens. When our reality receives a massive shock, we enter a condition of existence similar to nightmare and we react the same way. We react surrealistically. There are 4 reactions. 4 malignancies. Malignant individualism - become self centered, think only of your own shock. Narcissism. � � Prof. Sam Vaknin, Your Life Meaningless? Choose Nothingness! (ENGLISH from 02:01)
I've seen people with covert-vulnerable traits flip to overt-grandiose. It's not a pretty sight. I have a feeling a person with overt-grandiose traits could flip to the other side during a narcissistic injury or a full on collapse.
Dr Fox. Can someone with quiet bpd who is working on their mental health health, and getting professional support be a mental health counselor and be effective?
Well, I'll tell you that I have "quiet" borderline personality disorder and I want to work in the mental health field. I am working really hard in therapy, and hoping that I'll get there. It is possible! We just need some hope and patience…which can definitely be difficult to have at times, but it's worth trying.
Is it normal for people with quiet BPD to seek reassurance from other closer relationships about a certain situation concerning their favourite person? Like sharing what happened to other parties but internalize the issue in front of the actual person the issue concerns.
I think it can be easy to say "they meant to do that" and blame them, as a means of justifying any felt insults to being used. It's easier to feel victimized sometimes than to take responsibility for any level of sustaining unhealthy cycles, because of that tendency to assign fault rather than just understand context.
Oh this is going to be SO helpful. I was involved with someone who admitted to having Quiet BPD, but who over time, felt & acted like he had vulnerable/covert NPD. And after reading Mark Ettensohn & Craig Malkin's books...I can't imagine he isn't at least both, if not misdiagnosed. No matter what, it was a brutal lesson into my own codependent tendencies and deepest layers of childhood wounds which I'd never had access to until he pulled that out of me, and thus forced me to rebuild myself in a way I am profoundly grateful for. Sometimes our greatest teachers show up in the most unexpected (or unpleasant) ways and letting those lessons be a benefit rather than just another wound, can be life changing.
NPDs are more hollow/fake feeling and often mostly cares about superficial things and how they are seen.
Borderlines usually does not care too much about those things unless they are related to abandonment.
Could be a combo as you said.
Agree and congrats to you for finding a positive within such a negative situation. When I first discovered BPD & 4types & different traits of each, the psychologist explained someone can have many traits from each of the 4 type with a total possible combination of 256 characteristics. Also it’s quite common for cluster B personality disorders to have other disorders on top of BPD. Having been exposed to this for the last 7yrs I too am about embark upon the “codependency” road.
Well said! Thank you!
Wow, beautifully said.
Thank you this is exactly my experience & how I look at it.
Once you realize you have manipulative traits (no matter the diagnosis) and you work on changing them, you feel so much better & like your actually growing up emotionally. A lot of us have so much trauma we dont even know whats normal anymore, and we honestly dont consciously realize we are manipulating. I thought I was just getting my needs met the same way I saw my mom do it. When youre walking around not present, a lot of things slip by unnoticed. Not everyone who manipulates is doing it consciously or with the understanding its not normal. I am finding a lot of healing by working on these traits.
It's truly inspiring to hear about your journey towards healing and self-awareness! Recognizing those traits is a significant first step, and it sounds like you're making great progress.
This makes sense finally. I was confused about my lack of emotionality until I can't hold back the crazy anymore.
Lmao got that right
Dr. Danny you read us like a book! I have both quiet BPD (diagnosed) and vulnerable NPD and I love the compassion you speak with about both BPD and NPD. Your videos have calmed me from horrible spiraling, I feel like I have a therapist in my pocket. I just started with 3 therapists 2 months ago but your videos are the bridge of calm in between crisis states. The compassion in your speech for NPD and BPD has taken me out of self destructive crisis moments. I feel much more calm, informed and understood. And I am embracing improvement with every step along the way. At Barnes and noble I got your borderline PD workbook and it feels so grounding. I appreciate you! ✨
Can I ask, what lead you to therapy?
Girl respectfully I don’t think you can have both bpd and npd
@@nyedueldiew1907 What makes you think that? Of course you can. It’s called “co-morbidity”. “As many as 40% of people with BPD have NPD as well. When BPD and NPD co-occur, someone is likely to have a specific subtype of NPD known as covert, or vulnerable, narcissism” - by NIH article called “Comorbidity borderline-narcissistic personality disorder” and another article by talkspace. I dang stopped eating my bomb ass lays with chili to write this dang paragraph for you lmao
@@ss3032-d9g My fiancé and my mom urged me to. It’s still hard but improvement is possible. At first I didn’t want to change, but now I’m starting to get a better perception of life with more sessions. Starting to accept improvement
@@nyedueldiew1907 Yes you can. It's one of the most likely comorbidities.
Idk where everyone gets there information from to believe this 😭
The outburst rage of quiet BPD is one of the most dangerous things to be around when it happens
Yup, lived around it for 26 years before finally moving out. BPD mother with narcissistic traits; made life a living hell every day.
Same here, I'm fucked up from it.
As someone with quiet BPD I second this. I have never been in a genuine fight yet, but all I did was look at this girl who was making a scene and take a few steps toward her and she ran off.
It happened a few times at work (fast food, gas station). In my case it looked like a seizure: suddenly I lost it and my body did a few spazms on its' own. No one got hurt. Still it was pretty awful to completely lost control over your body... Thanks to therapy I recognize irritation long before it evolves into explosion of rage and I don't experience it like that anymore
You will heal in your 50’s. All of this tremendously difficult and unnecessary chaos of others will be locked out by firm boundaries. Find independence and income. Isolate in safety so no one gets unnecessarily hurt and blameful. Life is , and has to be manageable , HAPPY, EASY, SIMPLE. Blessings.
I'm glad to hear about quiet Bpd. I tend to exhibit quite a bit of the "quiet" symptoms. I think that's why I received my diagnosis very late in life. There is one thing I don't quite understand. I'm not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but are you able to do for others? What you can't do for yourself? I attend school for psych, and I work in the mental health field. I work with many individuals who suffer from chronic or severe mental illness. Mostly schizophrenia and at work I do so well. I am able to lead groups, give meds, help others manage their emotions, and work through traumas, but I can't seem to do it for myself. It's like something in my brain is not clicking. I am patient, calm, efficient, and I sure know my stuff at work but when it comes to myself I'm lost. What is this? Lol. Why can I not transfer this knowledge over? And manage my personal life as well as I do my work life. I take nothing personal at work so maybe that's the difference. Does anyone else experience something similar? Would love to hear general thoughts on this.
There's something to be said about the frame when it comes to being a mental health worker. There are rules & guidelines that are clear generally which can help with the anxiety around being 'perfect'. You may also know how to regulate for others but may struggle to regulate for yourself. Having BPD doesn't mean you're heartless, on the contrary you may have an immense amount of empathy for others but may struggle to have it for yourself.
A book I can recommend is: Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors. It's extremely interesting and posits that we're all made up of parts & so you're 'working self' may be extremely capable and regulated where as maybe you're day to day self or your inner-child may need some care.
Hope that clarifies a few things
(I'm not a psychotherapist but a clinical counselor/art therapist & I work with clients that struggle with BPD, ADHD, ASD)
I'm a long time sufferer of Quiet BPD. You're very insightful and helpful. The amount of suffering I go through silently is horrendous
I appreciate your kind words and I'm glad you found my content insightful and helpful. Remember, you're not alone in your struggles.
@@DrDanielFox I think OP might've actually been memeing, making a little tongue-in-cheek joke?
Specifically with their last sentence.
Admitting to having qBPD, while engaging in a manner instead consistent with cNPD.
I could be wrong, and often am, but it's giving "inside joke" energy.
I was BPD and my sister is covert narc. I often envy her to be able to share her pain so easily and think so highly about herself, without realizing her insecurity. She drains me a lot. Gosh. I didnt realized we look similar on the outside to people.
Was BPD? You will always be afflicted with BPD. You can move into remission.
To Dr Fox: An Unsung Hero
Sir you are doing an efficient job at removing the stigma that not only surrounds BPD but Cluster B in general. We truly need more therapists and educators like you, your perspective is enlightening to the ones suffering in the sense that it gives new life to the individual - one that is free of guilt and shame and only filled with compassion for oneself whereas to their loved ones it is a blanket of reassurence and illuminating insight into the pain of personality disorders and mental illnesses.
As a Borderline in remission today, I feel deeply obliged and will never be able to thank you enough for all your support through your YT, IG pages and other free content available as well as your books and card decks. In a world that once felt like quicksand with loopholes waiting for my downfall to a world of dreams and oppurtunities a melting pot for humanity, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Lots of Love, blessings and good wishes from India. May you be well always. Amen.
Your gratitude fills my heart with joy. I'm so glad my content has been helpful to you. Thank you for your support!
I could listen to you all day. Your skill for educating in such an engaging way is amazing and valued.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
My daughter has BPD and I’m trying to learn everything I can about it and ways to “help” her since she is 28 and will be living together for life at this point. Thank you for putting this video out there.
As someone with BPD whose parents never pursued deeper understanding I commend you and am so glad your daughter has a mom who is willing to learn. Best advice I can give is to avoid the temptation to take things personally, there are many ways a BPD sufferer has different needs than someone without and just because something is received badly or triggers an unwanted response it doesn't mean you did anything wrong, just means they need "special" treatment sometimes to be able to feel and receive the love and support and guidance you're trying to give. It is the most treatable personality disorder, and many of the things holding her back can be healed past and learned around with diligent support 🤗
Run! I just tried to help a Borderline with Dr fox's book. She was also in therapy. Run! You do not want to be around a borderline for any reason.
@@timweedon2785Stop generalizing. Just because you had a bad experience with someone it doesn't mean everyone with the disorder is the same. How do you even know the person who hurt you had BPD? Are you a doctor trained to diagnose? Lastly, even if the person you knew has BPD, that person may also have comorbid disorders that heighten or worsen their behaviors/symptoms. This is why it's so important not to generalize.
@@Valreea typical BPD gaslighting bs right there you just did. Run from borderlines. Theyre horrible insane people without actual empathy
@@timweedon2785dr. fox's channel is a safe space for people with bpd and he advocates against this stigma, don't bring your negativity here
Your message delivery style captures audience attention and conveys you’re not just an industry leader but have true compassion and passion for the people you help and others. Compare this to a 5 year old video on your channel. Good job. Free ego inflation that’s well deserved.
I'm having to watch it a couple time to make sure I'm grasping ... butni feel it's because I'm being to black and white about things lol ty for making this video I've been needing one like this for a min so really ty for the insight .... it's hard because truly I see alot of the bpd connection but when you bring up talking about how broken they are I have tk admit I go there once I've stuffed for to long and finally snap on my fp .. or other person I might have been overly enmeshed with.... I also have a tendency to talk about my medical issues alot from.my perspective for awareness as I don't really like poor baby or let me fix thay for you makes me feel unsafe or I'm unsure of the motive or how long they will be there to help.... when I was younger I'd be ok with letting them help but as I age I feel it's more of a chance for abandonment or rejection so I try to avoid asking for help .... and I do avoid alot .... it's been one of the bigger issues as I age and get sicker ..... I guess the hardest part to separate is even if I do get interaction about my struggles I never become overt .... I don't want the attention though I can't deny it is comforting to have others show they are invested for long term understanding of my life ..... inguess that's why so meny have had a eazy time connecting me to narssasisum though I'm not ..... as a male bordelrine I guess I might have some similar tactics ..... when I feel my partner or really close connections arnt being understanding along with me putting my things aside and adapting to make sure the other peole feel happy and loved so I can feel secure in not losing them or them disapproving of who I am ..... I just struggle to feel I can trust how they say they feel about me and that lack of trust make me worry they will leave me and like you said the emptiness I struggle with will get louder.... cuz I don't fully get rid of the emptiness I'm jusy good at making it and seeming secure .... why inhave to avoid makes it so I'm less likely to build up internal tension ..... it'd also hard because when i do snap it's very destructive... braking things yelling loud about how they dint care or arnt listening to my side or hurting myself .... but most the time I used to do drugs or have sex ..... non of this is by choice I'm just self aware.... I learned this cuz I figured out ifni can't do my dbt skills and separate before I snap and come back latter to discuss and meta communicate with said perosn I'm less likely to go to a extreme form of destruction and petulance..... I'm just not a person who seeks adoration or someone to take care of me .... but I do need peoke to prove they will be there for me in the hardest of times ..... been a hard road.... ageb grate video I'll have tk keep watching it to make sure it sticks .... I also think I'm gonna try and minimize the amout of time I talk about my illness.... mabye that will help prevent peole from reading it as fishing for adoration..... ty for the insight as allways Dr fox
You CANNOT help someone who does not want help.
Oof... I was recently diagnosed with BPD and I am definitely the Quiet BPD type. And figuring out that my ex was a covert narcissist is shocking, but also explains so much. What a terrible mismatched pair. So enlightening.
😂 I keep finding people as fkd as me too!!!
I see a lot of “I am self aware” comments here. I would gently remind people that being self aware here doesn’t equate to change. Knowing a thing doesn’t magically create affective empathy or the desire to change. That is the mistake that people who act in empathy and live it get fooled by. “They understand how they are harming people so that automatically means they will change, because that is what I would do.” You are stuck in a projection trap.
You're absolutely right! Awareness is just the first step; actual change requires action and effort. It's a journey, not a destination!
@@ShivaSolentei This is really true. I was stuck in my head for a while and dissociated, so actually taking steps toward healing and getting into my body (which was required to do so) was utterly terrifying. A lot of us tend to feel as though we can think our way out of a problem 😂 If only it were that easy.
Yes!! So please stop telling me I've accomplished something by being self aware! 😂😂😂
thank you for educating us about many types of PDs without demonizing any of them. people see behavior of NPD, BPD, and most Cluster A and B PDs and just don't see what's behind it, and they just assume they must be a horrible toxic person who is in some fixed villainous mind that is just purely bad. as always, harmful behavior isn't excused for anyone, but i just appreciate how much you and others are destigmatizing diagnoses that for too long have just been seen as "this means you're some deranged inhuman evil that is entirely separate from any mormal person".
human minds are so complicated and we're learning new things every day, and i believe i've never met someone who has no reason behind their behavior, or that it's an organized, calculated, intentional choice. i think most of us are kind of stumbling in the dark a lot and aren't very mindful of our actions or what drives them. plenty of people don't have a great grasp or control on their behavior and why, and it's admittedly hard to always be conscious of what's going on inside us. learning and understanding is everything, and i appreciate you and everyone who makes such an effort to explain and educate people, and even more, find a way to help people who don't share the diagnosis to understand and empathize.
A humanistic, emotionally intelligent, compassionate opinion and response. Thank you 😊
thank you dr fox. im really trying to overcome these issues.
This helped so much untangle my family system. The term Covert narcissist is being thrown around and not used properly, these comparative examples make sense.
I've been trying to understand the difference between a parent who is either Covert narcissist or dismissive avoidance attachment style and I have my own skewed perception of people's behavior and intentions.
Secrets...weird indirect communication, I'm seeing it more now and couldn't pinpoint what it meant and got extremely frightened when reading about Covert narcissists and wondering if that was the problem.
But now with thud video I see it's coming from someone else..grandmother, the daughter to granddaughter.
The middle is emotionally closed off.
Talk about patterns!
I’m glad you found the video helpful and I wish you all the best
This video has answered a lot of questions for me. Thank you.
I relate to both at the same time 😅
About the manipulation part, I usually realize I've been overdramatizing the moment that people show me emotional support, because then my needs get met, my mood stabilizes, and then I get a more clear sight of myself and realize, I'm not that lonely (e.g.).
So no, it's not my conscious intention, I do believe that stuff in the moment.
Same
same
PERFECT. Covert Narc here. Just adding that the maladaptive behaviour is not conscious. I didn’t know I behaved that way not untill I became self aware.
Does it matter to the person who received the behavior?
How did you become self aware??
How does one become self aware
It's good you became self aware. I hope you have been training to have healthier coping mechanisms
@ZacerysTheFirst they didn't say anything to blame shift. I'm sure that person is aware enough to know that they're not making excuses for anything, and do not need to be shamed by a stranger for simply chiming in to confirm a video's accuracy and lend some insight into the firsthand experience of it.
my mom has a mix of both, my dad is just pure covert Narcissist, so yea…. i’m in therapy 💃🤦♀️
Dear dr. Fox
I really enjoy your youtube channel. And I would like to ask you a question.
I have read that bpd symptoms might diminish over time. Yet I often see stories online about older people that still suffer from bpd and are still violent.
What I would like to know - what are the chances of symptom reduction due to aging?
Thank you very much for this video 🙏 I've been studying narcissism for few years but I haven't heard about Silent Borderline Narcissistic Disorder. It helps me a lot! Now, I can understand why a person I know seems to have narcissistic traits, but shows real empathy. She realizes often that she's under a strong and destructive influence of her narcissistic mother, but when you try helping her, showing her books, videos and articles to understand narcissism and how to help oneself, she gives up! You're right a BPSD person wants that "reward" - love bombing of the narcissistic mother and keeping her in the victim's scenario. Now I understand this meccanism! Thank you!!! ❤
What? It's called borderline personality disorder, bipolar has nothing to do with it. Maybe educate yourself bipolar is not bpd.
@saskiavanlieshoud390 Before you critisize, it's nice to write a polite comment first... you know? I am an educated person, still a human being. I ment borderline, of course. I'm referring in my comment to doctor's video. It's just a mistake I made as I was writing. I haven't noticed it.
Sure, bipolar symptom is different.
I've just corrected my mistake.
Have a good day.
It is like being on a Waltzer ride.....and the guy comes and spins you and spins and spins you....and your screaming STOP STOP STOP...but he does not STOP....Just like the crap that goes around in my head!...just around. around I go......I just learnt I am Quiet BPD....Thank you Dr Fox
Hi Doc, I wanted to thank you for your content here on YT. I've absorbed a lot of material regarding narcissism, being the now 49 year old son of a narcissistic father. But so far, your content is the one I find the most relevant and useful to what I've been through and am going through. As I can't and don't want to separate him from my life for a series of reasons, I'm forced to develop strategies to deal with the difficulty that is dealing with him, while at the same time rebuilding myself from the ground zero state he left my ego into, since it's only recently that I've realized and started to understand how he functions. So again, thank you.
Needed this and it came at the perfect time. Thank you so much Dr,
The click bait made me nervous, but you've never steered me wrong....glad I watched. As someone with BPD who has been caught in toxic narcissistic relationships pretty much from birth I appreciate any and all related content, and would like to see more about how some of us are incredibly vulnerable to narcissism (especially covert) and can become caught in a cycle where our core content makes us stick around for the ride regardless of how damaging we know it to be. Love all content and am here for wherever we go next.
I've just received your workbook. The BPD workbook. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed by it but working through it step by step is something I'm going to try to do.
Good for you! One day at time!
Take it one step at a time, you got this!
You always talk about insight is key Dr. Fox, truth is I find myself learning from your videos about other people and myself. I hope you know that you are providing people with a lot of insight and grace. The way you speak about these disorders is very compassionate and helps me be a bit less quick to judge. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and love.
You’re very welcome.
This is me.
Rather I'm shedding that "me" and trying to learn about my maladaptive behaviours and core beliefs in order to overcome and change.
I only got to know myself a couple of years back after a real tragedy happened.
Thank you Dr Fox for your priceless effort and work you do.
Just from watching your vidoes which are so empathetic and insightful plus digging the web on the topic of ACEs & attachment therory I was able to make sense of how I messed up most of my last 30 years or so.
I'm also doing a course on mindfulness which helped me to slow down and connect with myself and the world of emotions.
I still got work to do - the hardest one being that I am worthy and able to achieve (struggling with eating issues).
One of your vidoes which made me hit rock bottom and absolutely left me stripped of everything (dont know if this is a right way to express, english not being my first language) was "Parenting with BPD".
I broke down in tears after watching it cos finally, finally after struggling so many years with my kids I found an answer as to why parenting was such a difficult thing for me.
Again thank you and may God give you the best in this life and the next.
Edit:
Still slowly watching and processing the clip and wondering - can someone being raised by an overt narcissistic parent become themselves a quiet BPD??
So much of what you're saying fits mum and me
Yes, a BPD is what happens when one fails to become NPD-A borderline is a failed Narcissist
Hi Dr. Fox! Thank you so much for this explanation and for all your videos. This explained the differences between my mom and I honestly.
I identify deeply Quiet BPD. I tend to take a few steps forward and then fall back with treatment. When people give me suggestions for help I am like “yes please anything” and look externally for answers because I was taught not to trust myself. -
I get burnt out with taking the steps and can be quite lazy, I admit. I have learned helplessness. It’s also interesting being autistic because I lack cognitive empathy but feel emotional and affective empathy intensely. I’m super awkward at showing affection in neurotypical ways.
When it comes to “attention” I crave it for safety / abandonment in my close relationships as you said. When that’s triggered I implode and feel cold. Then I feel deep shame. Aside from that I am rather uncomfortable and tend to not feel anything when I have accomplishments.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
Short term reward/long term consequences. So what I experience. Except I don’t have the guts to move on, so I’ve been with the long term consequence for about 20 years because I am terrified of being on my own. @Dr Fox, what do I do? 😢
That’s too bad bc you’re holding the key to your own prison 👉being on your own is fkn Fantastic!
🦋
The inner child part of me who was abused by rageful borderline father and dismissive super perfectionistic mother wants to scream everytime my pain is pathologised, but I get it. I was diagnosed with BPD, Autism, ADD and I believe I have vulnerable narc traits as well. A lot of OCD loops as well. Not saying this to get attention or sympathy, just getting my thoughts out in a matter of fact way. I want to get out of my own head and just be normal. I'm seeing a therapist, I do my own work at home too. Still, it's hard not to feel sometimes like no matter what I do, no matter how many positive changes I make It'll never be good enough because in the end I'll still be a "broken" cluster B who's inherently less valuable and less "human" than a neurotypical healthy person. How can I ever know if what I'm saying is correct? If I'm bothering people? How can I trust my own judgement on anything if it's true that my brain is broken? So all I do is default to others, because I think "they must know better than me, because I have a mental illness, so I'll do whatever they say". And then if it backfires or that person ends up abusing me, I still blame myself because "well it's because of my disorder that I didn't see that coming!"
I drive myself insane and mostly avoid people so they dont have to deal with my weird energy. I keep it all to myself thougy irl, other than a brief description. I don't like to show any emotion at all unless I have to
This was super helpful. I'm quiet BPD raised in a narcissistic household.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
I'm diagnosed with AVPD and BPD but differently see myself in the covert NPD.
So the best thing for anyone who has been hurt or is in an emotional distress is to get the hell away from them and recognize that they are damaged goods and to save yourself. People with challenges are difficult and undeserving of building relationships because they have been abused or abandoned. Got it.
It sounds like you've really resonated with the message. Prioritizing your own well-being is crucial when dealing with emotional distress.
@ I was referring to myself. I at times needed safe people because I myself am an adult survivor of abuse and abandonment. And I’ve lived through a childhood of violence and gas lighting. I have had people say they love me when I’m ding great and winning at life. However when ever I’ve been in need of emotional supports and even just a hug at times I’ve been shamed for it. So I told people at fully love and desire to be close with that I at times needed saftey and stability and I actually desired feeling connected and accepted, and that went over like a flying brick. So I learned that is emotional distress is happening best to breath into a paper bag and handle your shit. You’re born alone, you die alone. No need bringing anyone else into anything deeper than a good time. Show up when needed sure, but don’t expect people to care or understand where you may need or desire connection. That’s what dogs are for. Men should not need emotional connection. Like I stated, people with emotional pain are damaged goods and are undeserving of building relationships because they have been abandoned or abused. If it were not for complex trauma, we really wouldn’t have anyone to be concerned about staying away from at all. Sorry to come off like a jerk, but that’s the jist of it. Casual is cool. Actually getting to the heart of the matter is scary and can be emotional or even painful for people who are empathetic. Healing is a solo journey.
I'm diagnosed with quiet bpd and i don't think I've ever heard it summarized so respectfully. I really appreciate the empathy you have for others. 😊
So what if my inner content is shame, guilt AND fear of abandonment? I constantly worry I am not good enough for my friends and they will lose interest in me, also I feel ashamed for not being as interesting or 'alive' and I feel guilty for it because I cannot contribute as much to the friendship as the other person. I worry my partner/date will leave me, because I am a bad person, also I feel ashamed for being like this, and I feel guilty all the time. Its very much linked.
It's brave of you to share your feelings and struggles. Remember, you are worthy of love and belonging just as you are.
Thanks for such a detailed analysis. Very helpful. I believe in my extended family (in-laws) I've seen both bpd and covert npd.
Glad it was helpful!
I was in a 6 1/2 yr relationship with one of these personality disorders -the love o my life. I’m 63 now he’s 59. We’ve had a blast
and it’s been loving and fun, until he ‘splits’
So when this happens he discards me. 3 x in the last 3 yrs.
June 1 he moved me to a lake cottage to be closer to his horse farm. Aug 3 he splits/discards me. Ghosts me.
On.the.same.day:
He picks up an acquaintance of mine
- she is now living my sweet and wonderful life.
I now live in his tiny town and don’t want to go anywhere out here because I’ll run into them together 💔
…I know but she doesn’t know but I’ve learned that he has a few on the side
Waiting further answer to prayer on what/where to go in life next.
Yes I’ve seen all of this 1st hand.
The telling of the suffering and how i don’t understand the extent exactly howmDr Fox described.
I’ve also seen this person internalize & push everything down.
Of the 9 qualifiers for BPD they have at least 8 if not all 9 and many characteristics of at least 3 of the subtypes.
When i 1st discovered what BPD was i then started realizing this person also had “narcissistic patterns or traits” also.
Been learning more lately on Narcissism and feeling like they are more of the Covert narcissist ..
and the manipulation and lies are rampant. The Plot .. often when they’re planning on doing something they don’t want me to know about, a plot or story begins to get laid out earlier in the day ..
then they go m.i.a. out doing whatever and if i choose to suggest even in the calmest non confrontational way possibly known to man that they’re not being honest with me .. all heck breaks loose ..
or when they need/want something from me the honey starts getting poured, usually 1st thing in the morning. The ask comes later that day.
Npd and BPD suffers do have intent and plan and other times they are impulsive and impaired, it is both
I've been people pleasing for about two decades. Now that I'm putting down some boundaries and standing up for myself, I feel like a narcissist, lol. Just goes to show how conditioned you can be.
Could you make a video about relationships between these two personalities?
I have BPD and my ex was a covert vulnerable and malignant narcissist, I’m just getting out of a two year relationship with this person and it was hell. Originally I went into the relationship thinking he had BPD but then after all the lies, gaslighting, cheating and manipulation I discovered he was actually a covert narcissist. The perpetual victim who cried about all the pain but never wanted solutions or to do any treatment to get better.
Great video, thanks!
Great video! Summarizes both very well 👍🏻
One question - have you observed in your praxis whether narcissistic parents produce more often borderline children?
Especially this combination - covert narcissistic parent putting all his anger, contempt and negativity about life on his child and the child has no other choice but to stuff it inside and hence internalizes the chaos, anger and shame of his parent, which turns the child into quit borderline, could it be? 🤷
A borderline is a failed Narcissist so yes
@@kimlarso very interesting point! 😯
Could you please explain in what way does the borderline fail to reach narcissism?
Which points are missing and why does this happen…🤔
My own personal experience supports this theory lol.
My whole life has never made sense like this it's insane
I met a girl and I think she is a covert-narcissist. She is very pretty and the whole world has to come and comfort her because she is suffering from some pain. The crazy thing is, it's a bit that character flaw to attracts me to her. And it's the challenge to deal with that!
Leave her at once
@@kshas3 why?
It's interesting how some character traits can draw us in, even if they come with challenges. Just remember to take care of yourself while navigating that dynamic!
@@DrDanielFox my response comes from having awoken from a 7 year relationship with a covert narcissist. Finally reaching a place of empathy and authentic self without being at all affected by her shenanigans.
And I have used your videos today to find immense growth. Realizing it’s been narc abuse my whole life.
@@DrDanielFox It is how it is with the narcicissts.. however that girl has helped to make better music videos, train better in the gym, eat healthier, and I cannot share anything of that with her, that's bitter! -- The crazy things is SHE helped me, not her false self. But to get through to her is like punching your fists against the concrete of her false self.
I have found in life there are two kinds of people, and I wonder if narcissism is what is the dividing line, so if anyone knows the answer, please let me know. The two kinds of people are "This specific bad thing happened to me so it aught to happen to everyone or its not fair" vs "this specific bad thing happened to me, so I'm going to do whatever I can to keep it from happening to others." I'm sure it could be caused by a variety of conditions, but from what I've seen, it's almost always a narcissist with the first statement.
How many children / adukt chikdren with narcassistic parents attempt suicide or commit suicide every year? I know someone with 2 narcassistic parents and he commited suicide. Itn his suicide letter he said that he now was no n longer a reason for any future harm to his parents employment and overall life. How common is this? He made sure there was no saving him. He was always quiet and never complained about anything. It was a shock to get his suicide letter in the mail from another country. He had me deliver the letter to his parebts since his parents asked him why he could not be like me. INwas far from perfect and still have a long way to go. It is very heartbreaking.
I'm beginning to understand that all of these disorders are essentially bred from the same core things. They are just....branches of the same disordered pattern of attachment formed in childhood. It's a spectrum. With some people manifesting more "borderline" traits and others more "narcissistic" traits but it's all the same fucking thing. Took me 3 years to figure this out but I'm convinced this is the case. People want neatly defined boxes and labels to fit people into and that's not how mental illness works. Even people with the same mood disorder can vary wildly. All cluster b's overlap and are at their core the same "illness". They are all grappling with the same issues. Sincerely - a doomed cluster b member .
I agree with all but the fact that you're doomed.
(But yeah, the person I knew who checks every box on both sides of the list in this video- I witnessed the tail end of him expressing more of his quiet bpd side, who fawned/people-pleased a ton and was totally codependently enmeshed with with his very narcissistic ex til she broke up with him and he fell apart.....yet then observed him express more of his very hot to increasingly cold covert npd side with me which initially lured me out of platonic friendship & into falling for him once i was sunk into codependent caretaker mode. I will say he seemed to have an internal battle btwn bottling up his suffering & letting me know just enough to fuel my caretaking, because overall he did still try to hide his hurt. I got burned in the end after discovering a lot of deception and thus facing my misplaced emotional investment. I was the band-aid on his npd collapse after his break up & once he felt like himself again, I was discarded for a bunch of other girls. That's not a sob story, lol. I'm grateful for how much it allowed me to learn and heal about myself. I shared it as an example of the way someone can vacillate btwn cluster b traits. So even within one person, the spectrum can shift depending on who they're paired up with and what's going on in their life.)
@@imm0rtalitypassi0n exactly. I've been in relationships with "healthy" people and behaved very narcissistically. I didn't do this intentionally. It's a pattern of learned behavior and dysfunctional ways of dealing with attachments to people. And I've been in relationships with other cluster B's and was much more "borderline" in those. My fear of abandonment being triggered by their behavior and the desperate need to hold on to them. It's a deeply rooted attachment disorder that comes from unstable parenting and you're right that it manifests differently based on your partner.
@levity90 yep. I understand. I once told him during a brief, heartfelt convo about how terrified he was of being used again, that I understood he only learned two modes of relating "being used, or doing the using", as if there was no in-between..aka black & white relationship dynamics. I do wish him the best and I still have hope for all of us. As long as we're alive, we have a chance at healing the bullsh*t we went through that forged unhealthy patterns. ❤️🩹
It's mind fu*king trying to figure out whether my estranged husband ( who has finally left with his former divorce client ) is borderline ( which I always thought he was during our 25 yr toxic marriage) The more I research, the more narcissistic he seems to be. He also seems to be grandiose, a trait that's on display now more than ever on social media.
Yep; A borderline is simply a failed Narcissist which is at the opposite end of the same spectrum 🦋
Wondering what you think of controversies over whether quiet ZBOD and covert NpD even exist. Confusing info online
Thank you for validating to me that my mother is, in fact, a covert narcissist. I already knew that, but too much proof is never enough because she's really good at making me think I'm crazy.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
What about someone who seems to have most of the traits of both standard BPD and vulnerable NPD?
That's an interesting observation! Many individuals can display traits from multiple personality disorders, and it's important to consider their unique experiences and challenges.
I am such a failure. I hate myself. I have been on this platform for 4 YEARS! And whatever I do always fails!!!
Restart :) Progress is not linear, there will be setbacks but you have the opportunity every day to start again. It’s hard I know, but very very possible
BPD with narcissistic traits is the most dangerous combo. They have no empathy and usually it is these BPDs that are the most cruel, and is capable of discarding people at will. Without narcissistic traits, BPDs would at least feel guilt and recover and could even apologize.
Exactly! Been there, lived through that.
I think so too, and that's were most of the stigma comes from as well I think. People don't know how common comorbidity is.
Don't forget all of the psychodrama where they project their issues onto others in order to work out their own. And then if you finally respond to all of their misattributions, they feel validated and react, for them justifiably, to the validation of your issues. "I knew it, you were always the problem," and they then take their drama to the next relationship and effectively destroy that too, leaving waves of psychological damage in their wake.
Thank you for sharing your insights! It's so important to discuss these dynamics and raise awareness about the impact they have on our relationships.
Could you please do a video on how to tolerate intense negative emotions effectively e.g sadness that last fot hours on end? Feeling sadness is exhausting and suffocating, and can make us feel 'stuck' and as such suicid^×l. I try to remind myself of the notion of acceptance and change, but is difficult and all I think about is how to basically unalive myself, and how much I hate feeling things and being alive.
Certain breathing exercises can be really helpful. They won't fix the root problem, but they can get you through the hardest minutes and hours. Look into how to do the "physiological sigh", and "box breathing". Super simple excercises that really work to help regulate the nervous system during intense times. ❤️🩹
TRE, trauma informed yoga could possibly help if incorporated into your routine. Feeling the emotion is integral to inner healing.
@ArchAngel435 that may be true for some people, but maybe hard to access or find? And regular yoga might be unhelpful for some, as severe trauma and suid*d@l ideations are contraindicated when it comes to "feeling the emotions" as people on the edge of unaliving are experiencing extreme emotional overload. Any meditative practices that are meant to draw someone inward into their own mind and body. Meaning...sometimes that stillness and targeted feeling of emotion is literally dangerous for people on the edge of unaliving themselves. It's much more recommended that they use more active movement and breathing techniques that help get someone OUT of their head, rather than in it. Things like dancing around- even in silly ways. Literally shaking out the energy. Walking or jogging outdoors is a big one. And being around people...even if you don't have healthy friends to be around...go walk around a supermarket or sit in a restaurant if need be, but ideally join a free activity group or something where you can interact with safe people...even without the therapy or psychology factor involved. Isolation creates tachykinin in the brain...a chemical that causes extremely negative feelings and thoughts that can make self-harm feelings much worse.
@@imm0rtalitypassi0nthank you for this insight. Extremely helpful
@@ArchAngel435 ❤️🩹
I was just suddenly dumped by my girlfriend and always knew she might have bpd but there was never outward rage. But the way she broke up with me and her behavior the weeks leading up to it and moments of extreme selfishness and other things over the months, wow...i'm realizing she might actually have covert narcissism AND quiet bpd. Is it possible for both to co-occur? Do these people ever heal? I feel like my world was turned up side down from this person and find myself blaming myself for the dissolution of the relationship though I know that's not true. I feel like I've been brainwashed and devalued and discarded. I felt like no matter what I did (which was give her all of my love and attention and care) it was never good enough. I feel like I failed all these "tests" and found myself often shocked by things she would say to me in these multiple hour discussions that were excruciating. Will I ever recover from this? What does this say about me that I got involved with and stayed with and imagined marrying this person? my self esteem feels shattered on one hand, on the other I feel like I'm finally back to myself and out of this confusing haze, and the other I still love and miss this person and believe all people deserve love and care regardless of diagnoses. Where do I go from here? This video was incredibly helpful in beginning to make sense of things.
It sounds like you’ve been through a really tough experience, and it's completely normal to feel confused and hurt. Remember that healing takes time, and reaching out for support can be incredibly helpful. You’re not alone in this.
can someone have covert narc traits without being an abuser?
Yes, can depend upon severity and intent. Great question.
Heh! Im sooo think my ex is the covert narsissist and Im the quiet Bpd.... Daaaaamn!
By the way, I like very much your video editing! It's really helpful for people who learn things in a visual way 👏 Vero good! Just one favour, please keep long description for few seconds more so that we can read it in time and remember easily. Thank you!
Yay! Thank you! I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
Hey Dr. Fox. Do you think BPD is a lot more common in gen z than is actually diagnosed, for both men abd women?
That's an interesting question! There's definitely a growing awareness around mental health issues like BPD in Gen Z, and many factors could contribute to underdiagnosis. It's crucial to continue conversations about mental health to ensure everyone gets the support they need.
I dont think they intentionally hurt. But intent does not negate pain. If I run over your foot by accident, I’m sure it still hurts even though I didn’t intend to hurt you, so I will apologize. Yet they will not, this is what is very difficult. They need a lot of love and they need to have a willingness to confront their demons. If they don’t, they’ll drive away everyone that cares about them simply out of fear. That’s sad.
I used to see her as ruthless, but I’ve come to recognize she’s simply the little girl that never got the love she needed. I hope she finds love and peace. Shit hurts not being able to take away pain from someone you love, even when they’re hurting you.
Good insight. Be well.
Thank you very much for sharing your insights and knowledge filled videos and streams !! Intelligent and professional !! Outstanding !!
Greetings from California … I wish you and folks good health , success and happiness !! Much Love ✌️😎💕
See... there is no winning. If I was neglected as a child at home and ruthlessly bullied everyday in school. Then bullied and routinely dismissed and disrespected as an adult for having a disability, according to this I'm not supposed to talk about the micro aggressions and disrespect I face on a daily basis whenever I interact with people, I'm supposed to tell myself that "this is my life and I can't change it. Just get used to the verbal abuse. Let it roll off your back and love everyone like you're not broken inside". And then. I'm labeled as a narcissist because society is Ableist and it's normal and acceptable to talk condescendingly and dismissively to disabled people, and choose for us and deny us opportunities and resources, then gaslight us by telling us we're not trying hard enough. HOW TF and I'm supposed to have self esteem and confidence in a world that refuses to allow me to excel at anything. If I know I'm capable but denied a respectable place in society because others perceive me as incompetent because of my disability, of course it's going to look like narcissism.
How am I not supposed to feel bitter snd resentful after a long lifetime of being ignored, shunned, overlooked, dismissed, never rewarded, and never getting my needs met. Claiming that my suffering is no different than what others go through is total BS gaslighting. We can acknowledge that others in our circumstances experience the same kind of emotional abuse from others, and yet it does not remove our suffering. The fact that others suffer is in no way a comfort. All you do is prove that the mote should be wider, keep people further away, avoid vulnerability, be extremely self-reliant because no one cares and no one ever will. We are unlovable and the world would prefer we just crawled off and died alone.
Is there any crossover between qBPD and Dysthymia (PDD)? I was diagnosed with Dysthymia about 15 years ago and then 4 years ago my diagnosis was changed to qBPD. Could dysthymia lead to or cause qBPD?
It's definitely a complex topic! There can be overlapping symptoms between qBPD and Dysthymia, and it's great that you're seeking to understand how they relate. Consulting with a mental health professional can provide more clarity on your specific situation.
also a video discussing avpd vs qpbd would be super interesting
Could workaholism be one of those self destructive behaviors for quiet BPD?
Sure, could be avoidance.
I’m not an expert like Dr. Fox, but a lot of my relatives have CPTSD and some very likely BPD and workaholism is def a thing. It’s a family culture thing, but also definitely used an escape for deep abandonment pain / striving for perfectionism along with alcohol. For me it’s been love addiction and binge eating - I’ve rejected workaholism because of the family culture.
I’ve watched videos where people with BPD have defined themselves through their job due to
lack of identity outside. Honestly, although one thing should probably not entirely define you, that seems healthier than letting a partner do that.
Hello dr. Fox. First of all I dearly thank you for your content, I find that it is one of a few channels who talks not in a judgemental way about these issues. My question is, is it possible that one can „switch“ between a quite type of bpd to a different type of bpd? Also the more I watch these type of videos the more I see certain traits in people around me, and also myself, that I need to be careful not to judge everyone as „ this or that“, if that makes sense. Is it possible that a borderline also tends to „overcomplain“ about their suffer , maybe from abuse that still went on, but really tries to get out of the „ I hate my life „ mindset ? Thank you and keep up the great work, it helps many to be more honest , in a gentle leading way, to oneself.
Thank you so much for your kind words and thoughtful questions. It's great to hear that my content is helping you navigate these complex issues.
Can you talk about false hope with BPD? Struggling to move on/heal after I chose to break up with my favorite person last year. Racing thoughts, negativity, self harm. Not sure what to do to overcome the lingering feelings that I belong with her
Why did you break up? Why don’t you tell her how you feel?
@@vanessap8717 I haven’t ever been more manic in my life, I do not want to be in that situation again. I am still unhealthy and relationships are for healthy people.
Would future faking be on the NPD side or BPD? My ex definitely fit the quietBPD variety. But she also did a lot of future faking. Is future faking part of idealization? She seemed to even do it near the end very close to the discard. And so does not seem part of idealization... so maybe NPD + BPD together?
Thanks for sharing your experience and insights, it helps shed light on these complex behaviors.
As someone who is working toward recovery with Quiet BPD / BPD traits, typically in the idealization phase when untreated is intense infatuation and it doesn’t feel fake for the PWBPD. There can definitely be love bombing but it’s not done with underlying intent. It’s a childlike infatuation. This is not to say it doesn’t impact the other party negatively. PWBPD including myself tend to have Fearful Avoidant Attachment which is more flip floppy. There’s a lot of guilt when it comes to the push pull. There is a desire yet fear for love and closeness.
People with NPD are more prone to lying and intentional manipulation because of grandiosity. They crave attention and think they deserve it as us PWbpders are like lost abandoned children looking for a parent. When NPD devalue / split there likely isn’t rumination and guilt after. I know for me when I have split (and my splits happen quietly) - even for “good” reasons at time - I feel so much guilt. My brain has protected me from any form of abandonment or flashback from my past . This does not
make it healthy or okay, but it shines light on the difference.
People with BPD can be manipulative sometimes even subconsciously because of their core fears and engage in either subtle or loud attention seeking behaviors depending on subtype.
I would ask yourself as to whether how she showed emotion and whether or not she showed genuine shame or guilt during or after.
I cannot speak for everyone with Quiet BPD, but when devaluation/deactivation occurs there’s sometimes devaluation of our self as well. I know for me I have pushed away stable partners because of the unfamiliarity and because I didn’t feel “butterflies”.
I hope you’re doing okay after your relationship and find the answers you need.
@@purplefinch29 thank you so much for sharing your perspective. The behavior that my ex showed me sounds a lot like what you describe. I think she means more towards the BPD than NPD.
Right now I'm stuck in the place where I've been pushed away. I guess it's because I had to leave town and it hurt her.
Definitely when I left town each time (This was the second time I had to do it) She would begin to have negative thoughts.
Yesterday I discovered that she had posted on a hookup site asking for masochistic sex. She did this in the interim between my first and second visits unbeknownst to me.
But amazingly after that she somehow came back to me. I have no idea what she's been up to for the past 3 months but I suppose more of that.
I've read and I understand that those actions are self-harm. But also they are a way for her to regulate her emotions. And for her to feel like she has somehow more control which is hard to understand. But I guess that's what is supposed to happen for.her.
But I've read also that what happens after a partner starts to feel this shame and guilt is that they will take the shame and guilt and then project it back onto their ex. So all of the bad things that she did she may be blaming me for. And that explains why she does not want to see me.
Before I discovered about the masochistic sex yesterday, I was looking forward to meeting her again and working with her to help her and give her a stable place where she could continue her treatment from.
But it seems like she's really hooked on some drugs + some very self-harming behavior. I would still reach out at this point and I will, but I imagine there must be a big wall up against me if she is going to project those things to me.
The first time I left every time I would try to contact her. She would not really be happy about it so this time I didn't contact her. Now I realize that might have been a mistake because that means it's been 3 months since she's heard from me.
She told me she doesn't want to see me and she thinks will never be back together. But then she left me unblocked that day. So it's a strange push-pull dynamic still strangely.
She's a very sweet person and a lot of fun to be with. Sure she likes sex but also she's quite clever and creative. She has a special sort of energy. She is Portuguese and she's been really good. Introducing me to things.
Any tips on how I might try to reach out? I read that when someone with BPD pushes you away often they want you to fight to get them back.
After my first absence, we reconnected quite strongly and she made an effort to re-idualize me. Now I realize that you don't actually want to be re-idualized and better to just try to keep it steady.
@@surfreadjumpsleep You are very welcome. This sounds like a really difficult situation and I’m sorry! I don’t want to judge or speculate too much, but she sounds like she could have a different subtype of BPD? When you left town did you say you’d be back? That likely triggered feelings of abandonment, but I’m curious how that went down!
I’ve never personally dealt with addiction aside from codependency and love addiction of course. Addiction on top of untreated BPD can definitely complicate things and it make it difficult for someone to be in a functional relationship.
It sounds like you care a lot about her and are able to see her good qualities which is really beautiful. It’s also very kind of you to offer her a place to land / a place of stability. However, as someone who has parentified partners unknowingly before, IMHO she has to learn to become at least relatively stable before engaging in a romantic relationship. I’ve had to cut myself off from dating to get in touch with the wounded parts of myself. As long as she runs from those parts of herself and doing the hard work, she won’t make a whole lot of progress. Healing isn’t linear, of course, but yeah. I’ve realistically told myself I have years to go.
The reality of BPD is it is rooted in attachment wounding and in my opinion a disorder of traumatic attachment, which makes romantic relationships extremely difficult. This doesn’t mean her or I don’t have good qualities. It sounds like you’ve shared some good times.
Based on the various ruptures you’ve had so far, it seems like she isn’t in a place where she’s willing to commit to you or her recovery. I’m a believer that to recover from BPD we need to do deep inner child work which can take years. We feel deep sense of self loathing and sorrow which makes us almost entirely reliant on our partners for validation and reassurance which is never healthy.
I wish both of you peace.
@@surfreadjumpsleep I also want to add - the idealization and devaluation (splitting) is actually a defense mechanism. I’ve learned after self reflection we do it because our brains don’t want to accept the potential of the person hurting us in any big way. “He’s perfect! He would never hurt me!” I said about my past partner, who betrayed me in big ways. It’s not done from a bad place - people stigmatize splitting when it’s a trauma response.
To heal we need to be okay with the potential of loss. Loss is always painful, but it may or may not happen. That requires *deep* healing. The unhealed parts of me still don’t wanna accept that.
Dr Fox - another great explanation from you. I have watched many of your videos and appreciate the effort and the warmth that you put into them.
I have a question I'd love you to answer.
I completely understand about diagnostic criteria (being a qualified counsellor in the UK), but I'd appreciate your take on this:
I know someone who is frequently vacillating between both being a narcissist AND a borderline - so is she (a) one or the other with a co-occurence of the other, or (b) does she have both?
I note that Otto Kernberg, Sam Vaknin et al are moving towards conjoining Narcissism with Borderline - what is your view of this please?
I’m a former army Ranger and I have BPD. My girlfriend is small, soft and… just, I don’t… I don’t know how to tell her how I feel, I don’t know how to hold it in, and I don’t want to hurt her. I’ve never touched her and I don’t want to. She lives with a werewolf and I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to lose her
*haven’t touched her in a rage. I normally am able to get away
Passenger’s song: Let her go
I just subscribed. I love someone diagnosed with BPD, multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar, and anxiety and I am SURE… covert narcissism. Rejection sensitivity causes me to have a breakdown! The fear of abandonment is hijacking this person's soul!Not to mention crack and fentanyl addiction!. Guess what? Im fkd too! Not going to be part of this relationship any longer! My cat and God are ENOUGH!
I display traits of both quiet BPD and covert NPD and regarding the manipulation being intentional, I personally do not realize that I’m being manipulative in the moment but after my wife explains it to me I have to admit that my behavior sounds very manipulative.
same here
Great content but I don't like all the dings. The sound effects are stressful.
The key is found at 17:34
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
I limit my acting out to making patterns with cigarettes on my arm. it totally removes you from that overwhelming emotional immersion. I abuse drugs too i guess. I don't like destroying my relationships, even the bad ones where you could find some justification in getting a bit rowdy, live in dignity or die in despair. but idk, I'm sure I'm as blind as the most grandiose of npds. I just want to know my negative maladaptive toxic unhealthy patterns. the pathology interrupts being who you really are, and I hate when people don't know me but meet a sub personality or not even someone I am at all, and that is their contention
It sounds like you're going through a lot. It's important to recognize and address negative patterns to work towards a healthier mindset.
But isn’t shame a big o pop art of BPD as well?
I still find it hard to distinguish between the two and do not know where to put myself 🙈
I am definitely seeking validation and help, but isn’t that a normal human need as well to some extent?
I am so afraid to take advantage of others at the same I need help because I am really struggling every day. I do not want to hurt others or make them feel used by me!
I am diagnosed with BPD along with other stuff, everything seems to be overlapping and confusing.
Validation is a normal human need within relationships. To have your feelings validated matters.
A borderline is a failed Narcissist 👉Just opposites on the same spectrum!
🦋
This was really interesting. I’d like to learn more about quiet BPD. I’m wondering what an activated,”explosive” event would look like, and what might trigger it.
It can look like a tantrum, it can be self harm or substance abuse, some run away, some dissociate. I did all of those as a teenager.
As an adult, mine often comes out as psychosomatic symptoms - neurologists were looking for MS for 3 years before deciding it was stress/trauma. One time I had a complete psychotic break and called the cops on myself (which is how I got the BPD diagnosis) and then I struggled with hallucinations and dissociation for months afterward.
Most of my triggers are sound related. It took me a long time to figure that out. 😅
I’m so lost. I’m diagnosed with BPD, but I relate to a lot of the covert narcissism traits. But mostly to BPD traits.
But I don’t fear abandonment. But I am terrified of people not admiring me. My core wound is a very fragile self esteem. Not abandonment.
I would rather be admired than loved which I know is more narcissism
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It takes courage to open up about such personal struggles.
Which star signs are most likely to be covert narcs?
Scorpio, Capricorn, Aquarius, Cancer, etc.
Dr. Fox, I had to pause this video as soon as I heard you make the point to ask - I'm an adult child (clinically diagnosed) with BPD who is the child of someone (undiagnosed, but as textbook as they come) with NPD... I've been working my butt off in individual therapy, using your work book, etc, to define and implement boundaries.... My one overtly struggling relationship has always been that with my NPD father. Now, as a mother myself, I have a newly protective nature that begs new input - are my boundaries enough? To protect me as an adult (though they couldn't protect me as a child)? To protect my kids?
Could you possibly make a video outing these challenges, as so many of us with BPD grew up with at least one BPD parent?
I don’t lie. Cause my grandiosity is attached to being super moral 🤷🏻♀️ and that is why I say: no Narc is like the other.
Im a 3 time diagnosed bpd. I just got out of an abusive relationship with who I suspect to be a covert narcissist. Im still so confused over it all, and i question if i was mid diagnosed and I was actually the problem, and he abused me to retaliate against my abuse. Im so afraid to be a narcissist, and research isn’t very helpful bc there is so much overlap. Youre video went into why and the thinking. And I really appreciate this clarity… id rather have bpd than narcissism
Food for thought, you're not BPD, you have BPD. You're more than a mental illness.
I feel and wonder all this too
I always thought he was a borderline!
Good
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
Thank you. Same to you.
I like Dr. Fox :D He's nice and warm.
Thank you so much for your kind words. I wish you well.
I hope you can reach out to Zoraya Ter Beek to let her know there is hope for people who have BPD. It's so unfortunate to hear that she feels there's no other choice.
Thank you for all that you do Mr Fox!
It's important to spread hope and awareness for mental health challenges. Thank you for your support!
Scanning all the comments - and most of them start with me me me, I I I. hehe.
So narcissistic.
People are just sharing their personal experiences with the disorders they have been diagnosed with. This can be beneficial to others for educational reasons or to simply feel less alone.
@@TempestTempos Nah,
I see it more as what Sam Vaknin talks as reaction to shock.
-
Nightmare is meaningless, senseless and that's why it is frightening. Nightmare has no meaning. There's no rules, there's no structure. A doesn't lead to B, and yet B happens. When our reality receives a massive shock, we enter a condition of existence similar to nightmare and we react the same way. We react surrealistically. There are 4 reactions. 4 malignancies. Malignant individualism - become self centered, think only of your own shock. Narcissism.
� � Prof. Sam Vaknin, Your Life Meaningless? Choose Nothingness! (ENGLISH from 02:01)
Can they be both? If not and they display all these traits, then what is a more fitting diagnosis?
I've seen people with covert-vulnerable traits flip to overt-grandiose. It's not a pretty sight.
I have a feeling a person with overt-grandiose traits could flip to the other side during a narcissistic injury or a full on collapse.
I have BPD and I always feel bad when I feel like I have manipulated people. I don't do it on purpose.
I'm so glad this video was helpful for you. I wish you well.
Dr Fox. Can someone with quiet bpd who is working on their mental health health, and getting professional support be a mental health counselor and be effective?
I believe they can.
Well, I'll tell you that I have "quiet" borderline personality disorder and I want to work in the mental health field. I am working really hard in therapy, and hoping that I'll get there. It is possible! We just need some hope and patience…which can definitely be difficult to have at times, but it's worth trying.
I know people with quiet BPD who are in the mental health field, community outreach as well. I want to become a death doula, myself.
Is it normal for people with quiet BPD to seek reassurance from other closer relationships about a certain situation concerning their favourite person? Like sharing what happened to other parties but internalize the issue in front of the actual person the issue concerns.
YEs, certainly
I think it can be easy to say "they meant to do that" and blame them, as a means of justifying any felt insults to being used. It's easier to feel victimized sometimes than to take responsibility for any level of sustaining unhealthy cycles, because of that tendency to assign fault rather than just understand context.
It's important to reflect on our actions and reactions in challenging situations.