I was expecting more fights like the strider, where you get more complex platforming and more interesting ways to take the armsforts down, but it never happened again...
@@SilverGlint I have a feeling AC6+/AC7 is gonna use this sort of mission more. From always makes the expansion a superior version of the first, building on the previous installments. The next game is gonna be so fucking sick.
That strider fight also reminds me of the Sol Dios Arms Forts from AC fourth gen. Kinda like a throwback except bigger and mounted instead of magically floating balls
Y'know this kind of thing just makes me more excited for the future of Armored Core. AC6 was such a solid return to grace, but I also think it was a testing platform to see what worked, what didn't work, and how they could improve. As long as they're open to feedback and have paid attention at all to the positive reactions to the Strider, future AC DLC, expansions, and sequels are sure to include more of it. AC6 already felt like they took the best elements from all five previous generations. I'm so excited to see them take the best elements from Fires of Rubicon and keep evolving the series.
Nice. Now this is a detailed look into good and bad of boss fights in armored core. As you say some boss fights are just that right balance, they are not too long and they give this great spectacle for players to enjoy and feel like holy cow i just took that thing down.(For me this would be the answerer and Phantasma) But oh nepenthes it is as you say a great concept, the lore and why its like this is beautiful. But the falling, the waiting all to just end up down there and for it to end with just a few shots. Not one of my favourite moments. I honestly was waiting for an ambush the first time i went down. I was expect some balam deserters to be honest, but nothing. Still nice work as always silver glint.
18:43 Those red lines were likely to prevent the glitchyness of standing on moving setpieces. They're typically very annoying to program and bugtest, so this was likely a design liberty the devs were willing to make to save a lot of time. If you want a good example of buggy setpieces, just look at half of the payload maps in Team Fortress 2
Another interesting video that provides food for thought! Remembering all the way back in AC1 spectacle fights were a thing, where in one mission after a grueling escape from an ambush you were made to fight a giant MT which dwarfs your AC. So fights with things bigger than your AC have been eatablished even back then. Anyone that played AC3 can recall the mission whrre you not only fight a giant MT but one that can split in half which mustve been a very gotcha moment for any first time player, though admittedly nome of them come close to spirit of motherwill in terms of scope. I cant say for certain why AC6 has only 2 big fights with things that dwarf your AC, but i suspect it mightve been restraint to make sure those fights atand out in the midsts of more mundane missions. If i do have a wish list, i hope that next titles will have it so that a spectacle fight coincidence with a personal one, say a rival or a once ally takes control of a oversized boss ala spirit of mother will, with the climax of that fight ending with the character fighting you ac on ac as a true gauntlet of skill. One could only dream..
Thank you so much for watching! Yeah you're right I didn't even mention how these fights are basically there since AC1 in one way or the other. I feel like they've always wanted to try something like the Strider ever since the first game but just could not come up with a way to execute the idea to their standards, either because of Hardware or budget limitations. That being said even the Strider is far from being the best possible fight using this concept, there's a lot to improve and everything points towards that being the Team's intentions going forward, they're slowly getting there!
@@SilverGlint they certainly have a bigger budget than the previous ACs XD probably because as a company they're doing better than ever financially and in the game space. So not surprising they want to try and top their previous big fights with the strider, which is likely the biggest fight in terms of scale yet, though because the mobility of the 6th Gen ACs you are made to feel that scale since you don't have the near infinite flight of 4th Gen ACs. And yes, I do hope they top the strider with their next entry/dlc, I like the ideas you present for what works and what didn't so hopefully they'll take those to heart
my one issue with the strider is that once you get ON the damn thing there is basically nothing attacking you other then the eye. plus it needs more HP, allow it to properly get swings in.
I would have used Cabracan as a counter example tbh as Gigabase was an early mission that was never meant to have much in the way of gravitas. Cabracan you simply immobilize it and then its only answer is to throw out a bunch of drones that end up not being very threatening. Cabracan is also the direct contrast from a game progression standpoint as Motherwill and Cabracan are two forks in the road and you must go after one or the other. You are also not taking into account the Hard variations of your choices, as losing the VOB early against Gigabase and having to travel much farther on your own power than you did originally does help paint a more convincing picture of how Gigabase could be a threat. Even if smacking its thigh with Moonlight a couple of times makes the whole think crinkle up. Gigabase at least doesn't feel totally canned. Its destruction is very flexible. You can deal with it however you wish. But Cabracan is as much of a slog as Nepenthes was.
You have a fair point! Maybe I could have used better examples - though I think when it comes to what difficulty/version of the bosses we use to examplify it should be looked at from a generalists lens, I think hard mode isn't probably what most people will play or even get to playing - especially after seeing how lackluster it can be the first time around in normal difficulty. Anyway thanks for the input Raven 🐦⬛
To be honest... I don't think the turret in Depth 1 being extremely vulnerable once you reach it in itself is an issue, especially not with being the first among 6 boss fight encounters in a row across that entire line of missions... And it wasn't advertised as being anything more than a stationary defensive gun either. The actual journey to reach it alone being more engaging was all it really needed, like actual dodging and weaving as you make a rush towards it as opposed to just... clinging to the elevator rails as you pray you don't get hit during the plummet.
I think, as with all things For Answer, the experience of Arms Forts is vastly improved in hard mode. On its own, Giga Base isn't fun at all, but when your VOB suddenly falls apart (common Interior Union L) and you're forced to make the rest of the way to Giga Based on foot, through the entire fleet protecting it, it's a far better experience (even though the Arms Fort itself is still Giga Bad). It doesn't excuse the normal mode experience being lackluster, but I feel this trend of hard mode being a better experience tracks for most missions in the game (and story). Nepenthes is just unforgivable, though. The only fun in that boss is pretending you're playing Touhou and dropping straight down, trying to dodge all the missiles and lasers.
Yeah I definitely agree with hard mode changing a lot of the experience but I wanted to keep it fair because most people will only run through normal mode!
@@SilverGlint Cook you did! I didn't expect a response, but, since you're here - I assume you haven't sunk that much time into PVP, but the problem with the stagger system is much worse than you think. Every single build boils down to filling up a bar - whether it be the stagger bar or the electric stun from the stun guns. It really fucking sucks. Ask in the AC discord what a sandaldance build is. Lightweights are entirely gimped by the fact that, as you've noticed, you can't shoot while boosting, meaning that the whole thing of outmaneuvering your opponent is really superficial, and just allows you to close distance faster and... that's about it.
@@dechanski You're completely right I have not sunk any time in PvP whatsoever, mostly because I think I understood from the get go that AC6 does not work that well for me due to a lot of the reasons you just mentioned. Quite a shame honestly.
Funny enough it was the other way around for me; I like the nepenthes but not the strider. It's the change of phase with the nepenthes that sells it for me every run; it's fresh as you have to think differently in movement (more like bullet hell) and there is no other boss like it. Clearing it repeatedly isn't much of an issue considering the mission's length. The strider on the other hand was somewhat of a drag. If you fall off, it sucks real bad to get back onto it (measuring depth in games is hard for me). It takes too long from the start of the mission to get to the main fight. Most non-AC bosses in AC6 feel a bit cheap to me, the fights themselves don't add much to the sense of scale or feel unfair as you can't obtain their parts, as well as lack of variety in movesets or reaction to a player's kit. Most of them feel same-ish. Spirit of motherwill and answerer fights in ACFA were really enjoyable to me however as they sell the sense of scale. I fully agree that 1 vs 1 (or 2/3/4/5) AC fights are the best part of the game and a real test of skill, like the last fight in ACFA route 3. At last, where's abii? I miss the sassy AI!
Always interesting to see opinions contrasting so much, that's what makes a good discussion stay alive! I can definitely get where you're coming from, and well, at the very least we both agree that AC vs AC is where it's truly at for these games. Abii is uh... on vacation. But not for long!! Thanks for Watching Raven
10:00 OR YOU CAN JUST GO LEFT AND AVOID LITERALLY EVERYTHING LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL also you have cover on the strider so it's not nearly as difficult as motherwill. the strider's captain kept yelling "defend the ship!" but there was literally no defenses on the strider itself. not even a few MTs, or even a few helicopters. you just pop in an out of cover, which you have plenty of, and take pot shots with no pressure at all. unlike motherwill.
Precisely it's conceptually great, it kinda works on a basic level if you're not a naughty player, but it's just kind of not really there yet. They need a few more iterations on this type of boss to make it actually amazing
@@SilverGlint in that regard, I think it would be - to avoid saying the word "simple" - not too hard, to model a railway to enable the eye cannon to move along the spine of the strider ship. other than that, the level really needs more enemy mobs, especially on the ship's top deck. even some stationary sentry guns (like the ones on the rear of the ship) will make more sense than there being no defenses what-so-ever for the player to deal with once we are on the ship's deck.
I was expecting more fights like the strider, where you get more complex platforming and more interesting ways to take the armsforts down, but it never happened again...
Right?? That's what I'm talking about, the potential is there but it's so underexplored
@@SilverGlint I have a feeling AC6+/AC7 is gonna use this sort of mission more. From always makes the expansion a superior version of the first, building on the previous installments. The next game is gonna be so fucking sick.
@@PonchoANS7 I am hoping for it to absolutely be the case!
@enternamehere3759 A shame that didn't make it through the final product
Honestly i had this thought process as well because I was like surely Rubicon has some crazy stuff always hidden around the corner
That strider fight also reminds me of the Sol Dios Arms Forts from AC fourth gen. Kinda like a throwback except bigger and mounted instead of magically floating balls
There is an unused Strider with three Sol Dios orbit cannons as well.
Honestly I just miss when Armored Core missions were literal SUICIDE MISSIONS back when.
You mean the fact that pre-4th gen ACs lacked an eject button?
Y'know this kind of thing just makes me more excited for the future of Armored Core. AC6 was such a solid return to grace, but I also think it was a testing platform to see what worked, what didn't work, and how they could improve. As long as they're open to feedback and have paid attention at all to the positive reactions to the Strider, future AC DLC, expansions, and sequels are sure to include more of it.
AC6 already felt like they took the best elements from all five previous generations. I'm so excited to see them take the best elements from Fires of Rubicon and keep evolving the series.
Same, im thinking it'll only go up from here
Nice. Now this is a detailed look into good and bad of boss fights in armored core. As you say some boss fights are just that right balance, they are not too long and they give this great spectacle for players to enjoy and feel like holy cow i just took that thing down.(For me this would be the answerer and Phantasma) But oh nepenthes it is as you say a great concept, the lore and why its like this is beautiful. But the falling, the waiting all to just end up down there and for it to end with just a few shots. Not one of my favourite moments. I honestly was waiting for an ambush the first time i went down.
I was expect some balam deserters to be honest, but nothing. Still nice work as always silver glint.
Yeah I also love Phantasma!
About Nepenthes...right?? The concept is so unique but the whole thing is just... underwhelming, it needed more to do
@@SilverGlint It did. I think having g6 here would have been neat. Just to give it more of a bite.
18:43
Those red lines were likely to prevent the glitchyness of standing on moving setpieces. They're typically very annoying to program and bugtest, so this was likely a design liberty the devs were willing to make to save a lot of time. If you want a good example of buggy setpieces, just look at half of the payload maps in Team Fortress 2
Might definitely be the case, but it still feels very off putting even if it's a development necessity
Another interesting video that provides food for thought!
Remembering all the way back in AC1 spectacle fights were a thing, where in one mission after a grueling escape from an ambush you were made to fight a giant MT which dwarfs your AC. So fights with things bigger than your AC have been eatablished even back then.
Anyone that played AC3 can recall the mission whrre you not only fight a giant MT but one that can split in half which mustve been a very gotcha moment for any first time player, though admittedly nome of them come close to spirit of motherwill in terms of scope.
I cant say for certain why AC6 has only 2 big fights with things that dwarf your AC, but i suspect it mightve been restraint to make sure those fights atand out in the midsts of more mundane missions.
If i do have a wish list, i hope that next titles will have it so that a spectacle fight coincidence with a personal one, say a rival or a once ally takes control of a oversized boss ala spirit of mother will, with the climax of that fight ending with the character fighting you ac on ac as a true gauntlet of skill. One could only dream..
Thank you so much for watching!
Yeah you're right I didn't even mention how these fights are basically there since AC1 in one way or the other.
I feel like they've always wanted to try something like the Strider ever since the first game but just could not come up with a way to execute the idea to their standards, either because of Hardware or budget limitations.
That being said even the Strider is far from being the best possible fight using this concept, there's a lot to improve and everything points towards that being the Team's intentions going forward, they're slowly getting there!
@@SilverGlint they certainly have a bigger budget than the previous ACs XD probably because as a company they're doing better than ever financially and in the game space. So not surprising they want to try and top their previous big fights with the strider, which is likely the biggest fight in terms of scale yet, though because the mobility of the 6th Gen ACs you are made to feel that scale since you don't have the near infinite flight of 4th Gen ACs.
And yes, I do hope they top the strider with their next entry/dlc, I like the ideas you present for what works and what didn't so hopefully they'll take those to heart
my one issue with the strider is that once you get ON the damn thing there is basically nothing attacking you other then the eye. plus it needs more HP, allow it to properly get swings in.
Exactly that, it needs more HP to have a back and forth with the player, otherwise it's a speedrun
The spirit of motherwill is basically the English hood on 6 lega
I would have used Cabracan as a counter example tbh as Gigabase was an early mission that was never meant to have much in the way of gravitas. Cabracan you simply immobilize it and then its only answer is to throw out a bunch of drones that end up not being very threatening. Cabracan is also the direct contrast from a game progression standpoint as Motherwill and Cabracan are two forks in the road and you must go after one or the other.
You are also not taking into account the Hard variations of your choices, as losing the VOB early against Gigabase and having to travel much farther on your own power than you did originally does help paint a more convincing picture of how Gigabase could be a threat. Even if smacking its thigh with Moonlight a couple of times makes the whole think crinkle up. Gigabase at least doesn't feel totally canned. Its destruction is very flexible. You can deal with it however you wish. But Cabracan is as much of a slog as Nepenthes was.
You have a fair point! Maybe I could have used better examples - though I think when it comes to what difficulty/version of the bosses we use to examplify it should be looked at from a generalists lens, I think hard mode isn't probably what most people will play or even get to playing - especially after seeing how lackluster it can be the first time around in normal difficulty.
Anyway thanks for the input Raven 🐦⬛
Very very good. Continue with all your efforts.🐸
I will try my best
To be honest... I don't think the turret in Depth 1 being extremely vulnerable once you reach it in itself is an issue, especially not with being the first among 6 boss fight encounters in a row across that entire line of missions... And it wasn't advertised as being anything more than a stationary defensive gun either. The actual journey to reach it alone being more engaging was all it really needed, like actual dodging and weaving as you make a rush towards it as opposed to just... clinging to the elevator rails as you pray you don't get hit during the plummet.
Big shout out to ACV with their world boss that must be played with a team! ^_^
I think, as with all things For Answer, the experience of Arms Forts is vastly improved in hard mode. On its own, Giga Base isn't fun at all, but when your VOB suddenly falls apart (common Interior Union L) and you're forced to make the rest of the way to Giga Based on foot, through the entire fleet protecting it, it's a far better experience (even though the Arms Fort itself is still Giga Bad). It doesn't excuse the normal mode experience being lackluster, but I feel this trend of hard mode being a better experience tracks for most missions in the game (and story).
Nepenthes is just unforgivable, though. The only fun in that boss is pretending you're playing Touhou and dropping straight down, trying to dodge all the missiles and lasers.
Yeah I definitely agree with hard mode changing a lot of the experience but I wanted to keep it fair because most people will only run through normal mode!
Another Silver Glint banger
Thank you Raven! This one took a bit to cook 🐦⬛
@@SilverGlint Cook you did! I didn't expect a response, but, since you're here - I assume you haven't sunk that much time into PVP, but the problem with the stagger system is much worse than you think. Every single build boils down to filling up a bar - whether it be the stagger bar or the electric stun from the stun guns. It really fucking sucks. Ask in the AC discord what a sandaldance build is. Lightweights are entirely gimped by the fact that, as you've noticed, you can't shoot while boosting, meaning that the whole thing of outmaneuvering your opponent is really superficial, and just allows you to close distance faster and... that's about it.
@@dechanski You're completely right I have not sunk any time in PvP whatsoever, mostly because I think I understood from the get go that AC6 does not work that well for me due to a lot of the reasons you just mentioned. Quite a shame honestly.
Getting to the arms forts themselves unfazed is part of the mission though and you get less overboost on the hard mode
Funny enough it was the other way around for me; I like the nepenthes but not the strider. It's the change of phase with the nepenthes that sells it for me every run; it's fresh as you have to think differently in movement (more like bullet hell) and there is no other boss like it. Clearing it repeatedly isn't much of an issue considering the mission's length.
The strider on the other hand was somewhat of a drag. If you fall off, it sucks real bad to get back onto it (measuring depth in games is hard for me). It takes too long from the start of the mission to get to the main fight. Most non-AC bosses in AC6 feel a bit cheap to me, the fights themselves don't add much to the sense of scale or feel unfair as you can't obtain their parts, as well as lack of variety in movesets or reaction to a player's kit. Most of them feel same-ish. Spirit of motherwill and answerer fights in ACFA were really enjoyable to me however as they sell the sense of scale.
I fully agree that 1 vs 1 (or 2/3/4/5) AC fights are the best part of the game and a real test of skill, like the last fight in ACFA route 3.
At last, where's abii? I miss the sassy AI!
Always interesting to see opinions contrasting so much, that's what makes a good discussion stay alive!
I can definitely get where you're coming from, and well, at the very least we both agree that AC vs AC is where it's truly at for these games.
Abii is uh... on vacation. But not for long!!
Thanks for Watching Raven
I have a question. what is your build?
Oh boy, let me check it once I have time to hop in the game again and I'll do a community tab post about it!
Hope you're doing well
Doing fine, what about you Raven?
@@SilverGlint hanging on
yooo. what happened to the discord?
Honestly just unfortunate shit
10:00 OR YOU CAN JUST GO LEFT AND AVOID LITERALLY EVERYTHING LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
also you have cover on the strider so it's not nearly as difficult as motherwill. the strider's captain kept yelling "defend the ship!" but there was literally no defenses on the strider itself. not even a few MTs, or even a few helicopters. you just pop in an out of cover, which you have plenty of, and take pot shots with no pressure at all. unlike motherwill.
Precisely it's conceptually great, it kinda works on a basic level if you're not a naughty player, but it's just kind of not really there yet.
They need a few more iterations on this type of boss to make it actually amazing
@@SilverGlint in that regard, I think it would be - to avoid saying the word "simple" - not too hard, to model a railway to enable the eye cannon to move along the spine of the strider ship. other than that, the level really needs more enemy mobs, especially on the ship's top deck. even some stationary sentry guns (like the ones on the rear of the ship) will make more sense than there being no defenses what-so-ever for the player to deal with once we are on the ship's deck.