I think the last interaction between Arthur and his therapist is real because she’s probably losing her job… she doesn’t have a reason not to be real for a second
i will never forget watching joker in the cinema with my family, and specifically watching joaquin phoenix’s performance, and thinking to myself over and over again, “why does he remind me of onision?” idk what that adds to this conversation but i’ve needed to get this off my chest for five fucking years and it’s been driving me crazy
It's crazy trying to remember the concerns we had, societally, in 2019 when this movie came out. There were significant numbers of people that avoided seeing this film on its opening weekend because they were worried about a potential _Dark Knight Rises_ event (to put it in euphemistic terms). Also crazy to remember that 2019 was half a decade ago.
I was one of those people, in fact I actually went and saw it opening night, and had never experienced so much anxiety beforehand like that for my actual life, at least when watching a movie, this multiplied the tension in the movie for me by so much ESPECIALLY when the DeNiro scene came on.
I think the world leaders all saw Joker.in 2019 and , felt sympathy for him and went a bit nuts the next 5 years. 2024 is certainly a darker place than it was in 2019.
If I remember correctly one of the new Frozen movies came out alongside Joker and an incident occured where a guy tried to kill someone with a blade, kind of ironic if you think about it
I agree with Scorsese. If you're a grown ass man or woman who needs someone to tell you that harming others for pleasure or spite is wrong, you were just looking for an excuse to be validated, and someone telling you it's wrong isn't going to convince you. That's why "Cuties" is so flawed. They exploited real children to morally convict child exploitation. But anyone who needs to be told child exploitation is wrong isn't going to watch the movie for its lesson, they're going to watch it to relish in the very act the movie is apparently trying to convict. But Joker, Wolf of Wall Street, Scarface, etc. doesn't actually commit the very acts it depicts, so it's entirely different. If Joker depicted actual murders, the point is tries to make would be invalid. But the murders it depicts are entirely fictionalized, so the points it makes can be safely explored.
19:19 It's the same issue with films like Fight Club and American Psycho. There are millions of men who completely miss the point and idolize these characters that you are absolutely not supposed to root for.
I had an interview with Bank of America and the guy interviewing me literally asked me to sell him his pen. I guess it makes sense that management at an international bank would miss the point.
To be fair, that's actually not too uncommon of a question in the sales world for interviews. It's going to show how you interact with the customer, with the "right" answer being to ask the customer questions to properly qualify the pen as being an object of need so that you can express it to them and make them want it. That being said I don't know that I would attribute the best of intentions to BoA haha. *Just realized this was a 3 month old comment once I finished typing this out, so you probably don't care, but I figured I'd rather add this at the end than delete what I wrote haha
Just 6 mins in and already and already in awe of the emaculate high quality production.. You really poured everything into this one.. You need more attention!!
Something can be cathartic for the character and the audience without the media actually endorsing the character or the catharsis. I never felt like the movie was telling me the Joker was right or that his twisted view is something we should agree with. It's more just that it's understandable. Humanising villains isn't endorsing them. And endorsing them isn't humanising them _ahem_ Cruella, Wicked, Maleficent.
I think the movie DOES want us to agree with the things Arthur is ranting about, while not necessarily believing that what he does next represents the "right" way to combat those issues. Rather, it's the inevitable consequence of living in a world where these issues are allowed to run rampant. Allow cops to brutalize unarmed black citizens with impunity? Sooner or later you get riots and cities burning to the ground. Allow angry dudes with nowhere constructive to put that anger, and no meaningful method of improving their lot in life, to stew in their anger until eventually something's gotta give (and combine that with a culture that provides easy access to firearms and romanticizes gun violence)? You get suicides and mass shootings.
I did stop “rooting” for him at some point in the film, yes. But I never stopped feeling empathetic remorse for his life and what brought him to that point. People speak of “choice” so nonchalantly and decisively. As if they know for certain when it begins and when it ends. When it applies and doesn’t apply. I won’t go on about that in depth or else this comment would become a book, but I don’t see Arthur’s end as a choice. Life’s cruelty and unfairness changed him, in spite of his great effort to fight the rage and pain effectively. His transformation was something that simply HAPPENED to him. It manifested, it wasn’t chosen. In that way, I found myself incapable of blaming him, but simultaneously wished he could become better without becoming a villain.. but I also didn’t want to see him incarcerated. Oh boy, whadaya do?
A deeply interesting subject and analysis. Still the most slept on TH-cam channel out there. Absolute top quality. Well edited, researched and thought out. Just... *chef's kiss*
Thank you for this incredibly interesting and insightful video essay. I'm probably a similar age to you, 27, right between millenial and gen z and I'm just now coming to terms with allowing nuance to exist... it's really fascinating how hard we crave for boxes to put things in and how frustrated we get when they don't neatly fit, I think it puts us into a kind of cognitive dissonance, that we don't know how to resolve. And it's really interesting to re-evaluate things while allowing for nuance to exist, because often when we do so, we can have a lot more fascinating discussions, in my opinion, so thank you very much for this discussion!
AHX is still horribly misunderstood and under-appreciated film. I met more than one white supremacist growing up who cited that movie for inspiration! Like…did we watch the same movie?! Its excellent though. Maybe just ahead of it’s time.
Ohhhh Fight Club! I’ve watched that movie literally 10 times. I felt quite satisfied when in 2004, after reading the book, I said to my bf at the time that.. dare I say.. for the very first time ever the movie adaptation was better than the novel. He said “WHAAAAAT?? Nooooo!” Then, years later, Chuck Palahniuk himself said he thought the movie portrayed the characters and intent better than his book did. I grinned from ear to ear. Told ya so!
I was in a state of pain I didn't even realize I was in when I saw this movie and had this asshole boss abusing me daily to such an extreme extent that I'd begun to hate myself and believe his gaslighting and found myself pathetic and sick from doing so. Couldn't catch a single break, every mistake I made was always a failing of myself I took so deeply it discouraged me from even living. Same as Arthur. I still can feel it. This growing frustration with the world which just kicks unrelenting with no remorse or sympathy or care for My struggles or failings due to no fault of my own. I felt this movie SO cathartically and viscerally that by the end of the movie, I wished it was me firing that shot. I was SO hyped by the end I wanted to start a revolution. I felt the shot in my soul. I've since quit that Jon and moved across the country to gain new perspective and a new life and never feel that way again and now instead of letting the world kick me I stand up for myself
I think it's really important that we learn how to empathize with people whose actions we would never endorse. There are some contexts where anyone would agree and say it's obvious - like addicts, alcoholics, etc. But when it comes to something like murderers or rapists, it's not so easy. If someone commits a violent crime, especially against kids, we all feel completely justified in calling them a monster, and dreaming up all kinds of poetically horrifying punishments for them. But those retributive instincts are poison, and we should never indulge them. I'm not the slightest bit religious, but even the Bible touches on this at some points. (Unfortunately contradicts it at other points... and that's why it's more of a Rorschach test than a moral guide.) But anyway, this is something I've thought about a lot as I've gotten older, trying to understand some of the horrible things people do to each other. Instead of feeling/expressing hatred and disgust for people that commit those crimes, we should realize that they are sick and try to exercise empathy. If not for their sake, then for our own. We may never be able to "cure" them... but at the very least, we should try not to let their sickness infect us. Retribution is the easy path, empathy is hard.
So many people confuse empathy with sympathy/compassion. Empathizing is like walking through someone's brain & analyzing them on an extremely deep level. It comes naturally, for me. I've had a lot of trouble trying to explain to people how I can understand someone's perspective and actions fully.. even if it's not my own. It's why I find serial killers or anyone cruel so fascinating. People think it means that I understand because I MUST feel the same which is a total misunderstanding of empathy. They see "understanding" as feeling bad for them or agreeing with them or making excuses. I think it makes people uncomfortable to believe that they could connect with a monster.. not realizing that you don't have to be a monster yourself. Two quotes from from Hannibal that I love: "It's hard and ugly to know somebody can understand you without even liking you.” "Extreme acts of cruelty require a high level of empathy."
There are no contradictions in The Holy Bible at all. Just others not understanding it. PLEASE, if you haven't already, embrace God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Jesus IS coming. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Factually there is only One God and He is YHWH the One and Only True Jehovah God and One Jesus Christ and One Holy Spirit. I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died. God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, and that God raised Him from the dead, repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart and you will be saved. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him. Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible.
Love the moment where you edit out the on-the-nose empathizing dialogue between Arthur and the therapist because that’s really interesting what you said in the follow up! The nuance…Maybe Joker is kind of good (but more the individual parts rather than the sum).
I find your point about Wolf of wall street very clearly being a critique of greed, when the film itself was apparently marred in a malaysian money laundering scheme controversy, and the fact that the film has the freaking con man Belfort himself make a cameo.
Kinda funny to talk about how people can't differentiate between depiction and endorsement, while TH-cam doesn't think there's a difference between *mentioning* something and endorsing it. You can't even say what a movie from over a century ago is about without fear of them demonetizing your video. A TH-camr couldn't even say in their video, "slavery is bad" without getting a "hate speech" strike.
This was exactly my jam!! The Honey Boy connection was excellent, as was basically every other moment. I hope you're proud of this one! I experienced a moment of perhaps unintentional dark humor at the end when you're groovin in full Joker mode and then we see 'Makeup and script editing by my beloved partner who asked to remain unnamed'. I fully believe this btw, and they also contributed some lovely touches to this piece! It just hits a darkly funny place for me given the nature of the Joker's own relationship in this movie, like I could see him talking about his 'partner' that way in universe. Greatly anticipating whatever you're cookin up next!
On a totally non sequitur note - meeptop, you have given me incredibly thought provoking analyses that keep engaged while doing my never - ending chores on the farm 🙏🏽
I love how there are so many moments in the movie that are clearly Arthur's mind. The therapist scene is just one of many great examples of things that likely didn't play out how they're depicted in the film. The therapist in that scene is Arthur's thoughts, and I love it
This. This video is a masterpiece itself. Amazing editing, fantastic visuals, but most importantly, complete arguments with cause and consequence! My man made me watch almost 2h of content without even flinching. I can tell the effort and time it took to be made. Thank you for this movie disguised as TH-cam content!!
Just found your channel and wanted to say your content is awesome. It's clear you put a lot of effort into everything and I really love to see that. Hope your channel really starts to flourish!
About your point on outrage. Anyone can fall into it left or right it’s just easier for the right because a big part of their ideology is appealing to “common sense” which is usually just reactionary outrage.
@@benblades8465that’s cute. It’s really not. The right absolutely does this more than the left. Not the say the left doesn’t. But there is a very clear bias to the right if you’re paying attention
@@Sm0k3turt I think people on the right would think the same thing in reverse. Social media keeps you in a bubble where you see dumbasses from the side you disagree with so most people have a slight (or huge) bias as someone who's views are pretty balanced for the most part
i’ve been a “silent viewer” for a while now, i’ve always loved the way you critique and just understand. this video was so awesome and i loved it so much and you just really get it!! make more like this!!
Schrader said he got calls and letters for years from young men saying, 'How did you know about me?' as in, they identified so heavily with Travis that some (on the fringe) thought Schrader had written their story. So, in borrowing the Taxi Driver aesthetic and a few plot points, Philips gets a lot of reflected significance from the powerful urban decay/loner/outsider theme. But Travis sublimates his libidinal energy, lying himself into empty savior gestures that will end in death. When he's a 'hero', it's a sick tabloid fluke, and he looks crazy in the newspaper photo, with an ending shot that implies no redemption for him. It's not an 'up' ending. Philips ignores what makes Travis so tragic and cracked but not heroic and solders it onto a Joker character that has such an intense cultural energy as an anti-hero, with a performance from a wonderfully dedicated actor who is doing his job. Then, for good measure, adds on a bunch of shibboleths about mental health and inequality and abuse that feel false and silly because the film doesn't take them seriously (and rubs the nose of the audience into the filth of his mother and him, when, nb, Travis had zero backstory. None. We never even see his apartment building, or learn of his service record beyond time in-country.) So Philips pretends to make a profound statement, gets to be kind of smug in interviews, though all heavy lifting is done by Schrader/Scorsese/ Phoenix/crass appeals to pity on the audience's part. Plus it's a Joker movie, from the Batman Cinematic Universe. All to what end? Make it okay to root for this guy to kill a lot of people and start an insane death spasm, because it's a superhero movie, and Joker is, here, the hero. So, therefore, the film seems to say, 'Hey check it out! Arthur is socking it to The Man!' when he runs in blood at the end. It's hacky work and very deliberated, because it's a big-budget Batman franchise movie. I think. Your videos are good; I apologize for this essay.
I just finished the video! I liked it, and the quality was very high! Its such a interesting question to discuss and i think you brought so much to make it good and nuanced. Im not very good with words but i can make an attempt. This video kinda feels like when i discuss with mysellf for hours, but instead of me being weird its a human on the other side and the human does a very good job of bringing new info and thoughts into the discussion.
Mental illness is a major theme right? You either empathize or not, and I wish it spoke about it more, but in a sense it shows doesn't tell. Hopefully the joker 2 shows just how corrupt the mental health system actually is, and how outdated society is with treating mental illness, with drugs that cause parkonism to treat schizophrenia for example? Its all bullshit, theres no chemical imbalance? Mention these details to get an even more discussion in a social commentary.. Everyone in society with a mental disability gets treated like a lepar, and all the abuse & bullying will tick someone off. He's character is purposely targeted because he represents the outcasted misfit, with misanthropic themes. I grew up, very much similar to Flecks story, so I 100% understand and have sympathy & total empathy. Its Falling down.. absolutely cracking sanity against the absolute harshness of how horrible humanity is. And I think especially after 2020, there's plenty of fleck around..
So I wanna know what you think of the dark knight rises incident. I’m pretty close to the end here and you haven’t brought it up once, when I feel like it’s important context for the moral panic surrounding Joker.
Watching this now, thinking "the world is on fire... remember when the world wasn't on fire and we cared that a movie seemed to endorse this kind of intent? I wonder what I'll worry about 4 months from now..."
Hot damn man! Great work. Thank you for an entertaining and thought provoking video. I wish there was more of this calibre of content on TH-cam and grateful the algorithm hooked us up. Subscribe button SMASHED.
Say what you want about the ills of the internet, but God, I'm thankfull for the magnificent conetent created by insanely devoded and talented indivuduals for our enjoyment. This is the sort of thing you can happily watch through at least twice and still find new things to think about. Good freaking job! May your channel prosper and may it serve you whichever way you hope for.
I think the most heartbreaking thing when it comes to any kind of popular media these days is the death of nuance. People want the morals and themes of their media to be spoon fed to them so they can easily position themselves on the “good side” of the message. It seems no one wants to think critically anymore.
I was starving myself bc of anorexia during 2019, so when I watched this movie I understood how arthur acted in the movie bc I was miserable and angry all the time too
I think the director saying "He is the villain we deserve" for being not empathetic enough, for not caring about others enough etc kind of shows a form of endorsement. Hes not saying what Joker does is good. But he is saying we would deserve it, if it happened. I have met people who i believe could have ended up very violent if they made a different turn at some point in their lifes. And if i imagine them hearing the director say this, i can very clearly understand that they would interpret it as "Yes, i have been treated without care, without empathy. This is what all these people truly deserve". So it is endorsement in that way. But i think its impossible to make any movie about anything remotely "problematic" without some people viewing it as a positive example or as something to strive for. We are all so vastly different and in reality there are people like Arthur, i met some. They have not had a single positive thing happen to them in years, their whole world view is built upon the belief that people are horrible and that they will never have anything good in their life. They are filled with hatred and with feeling like they dont have any control or power. And I know people that have had fantasies like that movie. They didnt do anything violent but they did kind of want to be Arthur in a way. Finally getting "payback". I think movie discussions often feel so separate from reality and with people talking about "oh no, this movie endorses xyz" it just makes it seem so black and white. Either it endorses it or it doesnt. But thats impossible. Every single movie ever made does both at the same time. To me the discussion should be about "do we accept that movies about problematic topics are neccessarily an endorsement?" And if not, what is the consequence?
"Not one thing can go well in Arthur's life" Well actually negativity can be self fulfilling in some people's lives. they attract darkness, create it even with their expectations. Its a real thing. I have seen it in action.
An excellent recent example of this phenomenon is Poor Things. Many audience members felt that the movie was sending mixed messages regarding the sexuality of the character, a character who is a grown woman with the mind of a child for much of the movie. It's very very uncomfortable and camps can not seem to agree whether the movie is endorsing certain ideas, or critiquing them. Especially since typically good and evil characters both take advantage of her.
Bro I was so relieved when you said ‘Martin Scorsese’ right after the ‘but first we have to talk about’ 💀 I was like damn I have to find my phone so I can scrub past the ad read. You da best. Loved the video. Great video.
I think characters need to be complicated bc people are complicated. If we aren't supposed to be entertained at the very least and have a new thing to ponder after the film at the very most, then we wouldn't have media. No stories. I don't understand why people need their hand held to be told "this person is bad okay" like okay? Anyways? Idk, it's getting frustrating. I want to watch different worlds from different eyes.
I think people are not as media literate anymore, meaning we end up with people wanting to be like characters in fight club or wanting to be like Christian bale
Amazing video, I've subbed. I agreed when you were talking about Arthurs depiction being cartoonishly sad, pulling you away from the intended realism of the film. I eventually came to see this as the unreliable narrators bias and given that Arthur is most likely a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist, it's incredibly common for those types of people to always play the victim, regardless of how villainous they may be and manipulate others into feeling sympathy/empathy for them. If the final scene is anything to go by and we have just been told Arthurs depiction of events, then I feel this extreme and kind of one note depiction would actually be a more likely story we would hear from someone like that than a more balanced, fair and realistic depiction of the events of the story
This has to be one of the most profound analyses of the film I've seen... Well, ever! One that doesn't deify it as the next best thing since sliced bread. While, at the same time, doesn't simplify the nuance that's actually there. Consider me subscribed!
Whether or not Scorsese displays the actions in a movie like The Wolf of Wall Street as horrible actions or not, he is still attributing to the conversation that these actions are 'normalized' to a degree, and are a method of life which people find 'success' living. This can absolutely steer the direction which young minds, (adolescent to teens) tend to go. I had a close friend I met in highschool, who ended up depressed, and possibly suicidal. But before I even met him, I could tell he wanted to be blunt, wanted to be a leader, and wanted to be rich. The guy even traded stocks during study hall. Due to this, I had a presupposition for who he was. During our first conversation we had, I told him jokingly, 'you remind me of someone whos favorite movie is the wolf of wall street' and he said something like 'yea gotta be one of my favorite movies'. Throughout our years in highschool together he remained that way, and his personality never really changed from the outside. A couple years later, highschool ended, we were still good friends, though based on what I knew of him, I had an inclination that I did not want to go with him into adulthood, as I strongly believed he would now have more access to drugs and a new circle of unhealthy friends that I wanted no part of. Very soon after, not even 2 months after graduation, he came to me and vented as to how he hates himself, hates who he has developed himself to be, and wants to come find a new healthy lifestyle and mindset. This is where he became depressed, and uncomfortable with himself. There are clearly deeper issues at hand with his situation. But he was undoubtedly aestheticising the unhealthy lifestyle displayed in certain movies, and he never was shown how the non-drug ridden lifestyle could be a better way to live until he found out the hard way. 17 years old is the rating for which people can watch an R movie in theaters. Some people that age can take a rated R movie very well, and possibly even walk out enlightened to some capacity. But many people at that age are lost knowing who they are, and are still searching to find a group of people they can identify with. These people are very susceptible to the crowd and media surrounding them, the things they are around forms who they wish to become, wether they like it or not. The Wolf of Wall Street is rated R, 17 and up. The truth is, we are going to have people who get hurt (in fairly direct ways) from consuming art like The Wolf of Wall Street, especially at younger ages, but this is also entirely dependent on how the individual consuming it takes it. How do we restrict the wrong people from watching art pieces like this? Should this problem be solved elsewhere and not by restriction? Good questions!
When the movie ended opening night I started clapping and you felt the tension rise Then everyone slowly…. Reluctantly started clapping with me Hahahahahahahahhahah
I love it when the algorithm finally recognises that I crave long form video essay analysis. Thank you for feeding my addiction
I agree, i love the movie length video essays as long as the person is passionate topic hardly matters
I've compiled 800+ of them into a playlist. Feel free to dig in.
I do not click on a video under 40 minutes unless it’s about a cute dog lol
I love them because all I have to do is put one on and go to work and not worry about looking through my phone for the next video for a while
I don’t I hate them but this one’s really good I watched it all the way through
I think the last interaction between Arthur and his therapist is real because she’s probably losing her job… she doesn’t have a reason not to be real for a second
And that convo felt like real life. Like if that situation were in reality, it would’ve gone just like that.
i will never forget watching joker in the cinema with my family, and specifically watching joaquin phoenix’s performance, and thinking to myself over and over again, “why does he remind me of onision?”
idk what that adds to this conversation but i’ve needed to get this off my chest for five fucking years and it’s been driving me crazy
I love a 2-hour video essay where they admit in the intro that they can’t answer the question
Also love immediately including Scorsese saying his own name, to prove you’re pronouncing it rigjt
It's crazy trying to remember the concerns we had, societally, in 2019 when this movie came out. There were significant numbers of people that avoided seeing this film on its opening weekend because they were worried about a potential _Dark Knight Rises_ event (to put it in euphemistic terms).
Also crazy to remember that 2019 was half a decade ago.
Several media outlets, NYT and the Daily Beast come to mind, were practically manifesting one
I was one of those people, in fact I actually went and saw it opening night, and had never experienced so much anxiety beforehand like that for my actual life, at least when watching a movie, this multiplied the tension in the movie for me by so much ESPECIALLY when the DeNiro scene came on.
I think the world leaders all saw Joker.in 2019 and , felt sympathy for him and went a bit nuts the next 5 years.
2024 is certainly a darker place than it was in 2019.
@@ChubbyChecker182 or we could blame that on Covid and the massive wealth/power grab that happened as a result
If I remember correctly one of the new Frozen movies came out alongside Joker and an incident occured where a guy tried to kill someone with a blade, kind of ironic if you think about it
I agree with Scorsese. If you're a grown ass man or woman who needs someone to tell you that harming others for pleasure or spite is wrong, you were just looking for an excuse to be validated, and someone telling you it's wrong isn't going to convince you. That's why "Cuties" is so flawed. They exploited real children to morally convict child exploitation. But anyone who needs to be told child exploitation is wrong isn't going to watch the movie for its lesson, they're going to watch it to relish in the very act the movie is apparently trying to convict.
But Joker, Wolf of Wall Street, Scarface, etc. doesn't actually commit the very acts it depicts, so it's entirely different. If Joker depicted actual murders, the point is tries to make would be invalid. But the murders it depicts are entirely fictionalized, so the points it makes can be safely explored.
19:19 It's the same issue with films like Fight Club and American Psycho. There are millions of men who completely miss the point and idolize these characters that you are absolutely not supposed to root for.
I had an interview with Bank of America and the guy interviewing me literally asked me to sell him his pen. I guess it makes sense that management at an international bank would miss the point.
To be fair, that's actually not too uncommon of a question in the sales world for interviews. It's going to show how you interact with the customer, with the "right" answer being to ask the customer questions to properly qualify the pen as being an object of need so that you can express it to them and make them want it. That being said I don't know that I would attribute the best of intentions to BoA haha.
*Just realized this was a 3 month old comment once I finished typing this out, so you probably don't care, but I figured I'd rather add this at the end than delete what I wrote haha
Just 6 mins in and already and already in awe of the emaculate high quality production.. You really poured everything into this one.. You need more attention!!
Something can be cathartic for the character and the audience without the media actually endorsing the character or the catharsis.
I never felt like the movie was telling me the Joker was right or that his twisted view is something we should agree with. It's more just that it's understandable. Humanising villains isn't endorsing them. And endorsing them isn't humanising them _ahem_ Cruella, Wicked, Maleficent.
I think the movie DOES want us to agree with the things Arthur is ranting about, while not necessarily believing that what he does next represents the "right" way to combat those issues. Rather, it's the inevitable consequence of living in a world where these issues are allowed to run rampant.
Allow cops to brutalize unarmed black citizens with impunity? Sooner or later you get riots and cities burning to the ground. Allow angry dudes with nowhere constructive to put that anger, and no meaningful method of improving their lot in life, to stew in their anger until eventually something's gotta give (and combine that with a culture that provides easy access to firearms and romanticizes gun violence)? You get suicides and mass shootings.
I did stop “rooting” for him at some point in the film, yes. But I never stopped feeling empathetic remorse for his life and what brought him to that point.
People speak of “choice” so nonchalantly and decisively. As if they know for certain when it begins and when it ends. When it applies and doesn’t apply. I won’t go on about that in depth or else this comment would become a book, but I don’t see Arthur’s end as a choice. Life’s cruelty and unfairness changed him, in spite of his great effort to fight the rage and pain effectively. His transformation was something that simply HAPPENED to him. It manifested, it wasn’t chosen. In that way, I found myself incapable of blaming him, but simultaneously wished he could become better without becoming a villain.. but I also didn’t want to see him incarcerated. Oh boy, whadaya do?
A deeply interesting subject and analysis. Still the most slept on TH-cam channel out there. Absolute top quality. Well edited, researched and thought out. Just... *chef's kiss*
Thank you for this incredibly interesting and insightful video essay. I'm probably a similar age to you, 27, right between millenial and gen z and I'm just now coming to terms with allowing nuance to exist... it's really fascinating how hard we crave for boxes to put things in and how frustrated we get when they don't neatly fit, I think it puts us into a kind of cognitive dissonance, that we don't know how to resolve. And it's really interesting to re-evaluate things while allowing for nuance to exist, because often when we do so, we can have a lot more fascinating discussions, in my opinion, so thank you very much for this discussion!
American history x needs to mentioned in this discussion. Probably fight club as well
AHX is still horribly misunderstood and under-appreciated film.
I met more than one white supremacist growing up who cited that movie for inspiration!
Like…did we watch the same movie?! Its excellent though. Maybe just ahead of it’s time.
Ohhhh Fight Club! I’ve watched that movie literally 10 times. I felt quite satisfied when in 2004, after reading the book, I said to my bf at the time that.. dare I say.. for the very first time ever the movie adaptation was better than the novel. He said “WHAAAAAT?? Nooooo!” Then, years later, Chuck Palahniuk himself said he thought the movie portrayed the characters and intent better than his book did. I grinned from ear to ear. Told ya so!
I was mentally unwell himself, and when I saw this film - it was so close to experience on vibe level, that I got sick.
Great work of art
I was in a state of pain I didn't even realize I was in when I saw this movie and had this asshole boss abusing me daily to such an extreme extent that I'd begun to hate myself and believe his gaslighting and found myself pathetic and sick from doing so. Couldn't catch a single break, every mistake I made was always a failing of myself I took so deeply it discouraged me from even living. Same as Arthur. I still can feel it. This growing frustration with the world which just kicks unrelenting with no remorse or sympathy or care for My struggles or failings due to no fault of my own. I felt this movie SO cathartically and viscerally that by the end of the movie, I wished it was me firing that shot. I was SO hyped by the end I wanted to start a revolution.
I felt the shot in my soul. I've since quit that Jon and moved across the country to gain new perspective and a new life and never feel that way again and now instead of letting the world kick me I stand up for myself
I think it's really important that we learn how to empathize with people whose actions we would never endorse. There are some contexts where anyone would agree and say it's obvious - like addicts, alcoholics, etc. But when it comes to something like murderers or rapists, it's not so easy. If someone commits a violent crime, especially against kids, we all feel completely justified in calling them a monster, and dreaming up all kinds of poetically horrifying punishments for them. But those retributive instincts are poison, and we should never indulge them. I'm not the slightest bit religious, but even the Bible touches on this at some points. (Unfortunately contradicts it at other points... and that's why it's more of a Rorschach test than a moral guide.)
But anyway, this is something I've thought about a lot as I've gotten older, trying to understand some of the horrible things people do to each other. Instead of feeling/expressing hatred and disgust for people that commit those crimes, we should realize that they are sick and try to exercise empathy. If not for their sake, then for our own. We may never be able to "cure" them... but at the very least, we should try not to let their sickness infect us. Retribution is the easy path, empathy is hard.
To empathize with a monster isn’t to justify their actions. But attempt to understand why it happened in order to prevent it from happening again.
So many people confuse empathy with sympathy/compassion. Empathizing is like walking through someone's brain & analyzing them on an extremely deep level. It comes naturally, for me. I've had a lot of trouble trying to explain to people how I can understand someone's perspective and actions fully.. even if it's not my own. It's why I find serial killers or anyone cruel so fascinating. People think it means that I understand because I MUST feel the same which is a total misunderstanding of empathy. They see "understanding" as feeling bad for them or agreeing with them or making excuses. I think it makes people uncomfortable to believe that they could connect with a monster.. not realizing that you don't have to be a monster yourself.
Two quotes from from Hannibal that I love:
"It's hard and ugly to know somebody can understand you without even liking you.”
"Extreme acts of cruelty require a high level of empathy."
There are no contradictions in The Holy Bible at all. Just others not understanding it.
PLEASE, if you haven't already, embrace God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Jesus IS coming. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Factually there is only One God and He is YHWH the One and Only True Jehovah God and One Jesus Christ and One Holy Spirit.
I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died.
God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, and that God raised Him from the dead, repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart and you will be saved.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him.
Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible.
@@Sm0k3turtI 100% support his actions.
Just started and this is already art
Honestly one of my fav video essays, so well produced and obviously well thought through!!!
Love the moment where you edit out the on-the-nose empathizing dialogue between Arthur and the therapist because that’s really interesting what you said in the follow up! The nuance…Maybe Joker is kind of good (but more the individual parts rather than the sum).
I find your point about Wolf of wall street very clearly being a critique of greed, when the film itself was apparently marred in a malaysian money laundering scheme controversy, and the fact that the film has the freaking con man Belfort himself make a cameo.
Scorsese can't help himself, he always makes his protagonist a hero.
It is very ironic that film was also funded by a con man.
@@capnmnemonot in Taxi Driver.
@@GustavoEPerez-gj7qz O most definitely including Taxi Driver.
You didn’t finish your sentence. You find the point what?
Kinda funny to talk about how people can't differentiate between depiction and endorsement, while TH-cam doesn't think there's a difference between *mentioning* something and endorsing it. You can't even say what a movie from over a century ago is about without fear of them demonetizing your video. A TH-camr couldn't even say in their video, "slavery is bad" without getting a "hate speech" strike.
This was exactly my jam!! The Honey Boy connection was excellent, as was basically every other moment. I hope you're proud of this one! I experienced a moment of perhaps unintentional dark humor at the end when you're groovin in full Joker mode and then we see 'Makeup and script editing by my beloved partner who asked to remain unnamed'. I fully believe this btw, and they also contributed some lovely touches to this piece! It just hits a darkly funny place for me given the nature of the Joker's own relationship in this movie, like I could see him talking about his 'partner' that way in universe. Greatly anticipating whatever you're cookin up next!
I've been looking for an actually insightful video essay for months thank you so much I'll deep dive the rest of your videos for the rest of the week
I felt zero empathy for Travis Bickle. Joker succeeds in making us care for the villain.
exactly. Nor the character in "the king of comedy."
Because it beats the audience over the head. It didn't work on me, though. I care for none of the characters in Joker.
Gosh I love these long videos so much
On a totally non sequitur note - meeptop, you have given me incredibly thought provoking analyses that keep engaged while doing my never - ending chores on the farm 🙏🏽
I love how there are so many moments in the movie that are clearly Arthur's mind. The therapist scene is just one of many great examples of things that likely didn't play out how they're depicted in the film. The therapist in that scene is Arthur's thoughts, and I love it
How this doesn't have 100x the amount of views is beyond me. Pehnomenal work!
Wow. I did not expect such a longform examination of this movie from you. I love your stuff, keep it up, this kind of content suits you.
This. This video is a masterpiece itself. Amazing editing, fantastic visuals, but most importantly, complete arguments with cause and consequence! My man made me watch almost 2h of content without even flinching. I can tell the effort and time it took to be made. Thank you for this movie disguised as TH-cam content!!
meeptop u are going to be so famous so quickly i hope u are prepared bc ur videos are just amazing and everyones gonna see them
This was stellar! What a thoughtful and thorough analysis, really happy that this popped up in my recommended! New sub alert!!
This was such a refreshing watch, you have found a new fan with this
side note, this is one of the best thumbnails i've ever seen, stellar design
This one is way underrated. What a thoughtful and insightful video. Kudos! Keep it up, the algo will reward you soon enoug.
Just found your channel and wanted to say your content is awesome. It's clear you put a lot of effort into everything and I really love to see that. Hope your channel really starts to flourish!
wow, this is absolutely awesome and just my cup of tea. instant sub. hope this blows up even more!
About your point on outrage. Anyone can fall into it left or right it’s just easier for the right because a big part of their ideology is appealing to “common sense” which is usually just reactionary outrage.
I don't know i feel like it's pretty equal
um no
@@benblades8465that’s cute. It’s really not. The right absolutely does this more than the left. Not the say the left doesn’t. But there is a very clear bias to the right if you’re paying attention
@@Sm0k3turt I think people on the right would think the same thing in reverse. Social media keeps you in a bubble where you see dumbasses from the side you disagree with so most people have a slight (or huge) bias as someone who's views are pretty balanced for the most part
Lmao you’re joking right
AMAZING video. Seriously enjoyed this. Thank you for giving such a wonderful video to people ❤
I FOUND THE OUTRO SONG!!! It’s Something’s telling me by Niklas Grabrielsson with Martin Landstrom & His Orchestra !
i’ve been a “silent viewer” for a while now, i’ve always loved the way you critique and just understand. this video was so awesome and i loved it so much and you just really get it!! make more like this!!
wow this video popped up right when i wanted to watch something long, commenting for the algo and to keep up on the good work!!
Two hour long meeptop vid hell yeah
incredible video brotha hope the algorithm gets this one
Schrader said he got calls and letters for years from young men saying, 'How did you know about me?' as in, they identified so heavily with Travis that some (on the fringe) thought Schrader had written their story. So, in borrowing the Taxi Driver aesthetic and a few plot points, Philips gets a lot of reflected significance from the powerful urban decay/loner/outsider theme. But Travis sublimates his libidinal energy, lying himself into empty savior gestures that will end in death. When he's a 'hero', it's a sick tabloid fluke, and he looks crazy in the newspaper photo, with an ending shot that implies no redemption for him. It's not an 'up' ending. Philips ignores what makes Travis so tragic and cracked but not heroic and solders it onto a Joker character that has such an intense cultural energy as an anti-hero, with a performance from a wonderfully dedicated actor who is doing his job. Then, for good measure, adds on a bunch of shibboleths about mental health and inequality and abuse that feel false and silly because the film doesn't take them seriously (and rubs the nose of the audience into the filth of his mother and him, when, nb, Travis had zero backstory. None. We never even see his apartment building, or learn of his service record beyond time in-country.) So Philips pretends to make a profound statement, gets to be kind of smug in interviews, though all heavy lifting is done by Schrader/Scorsese/ Phoenix/crass appeals to pity on the audience's part. Plus it's a Joker movie, from the Batman Cinematic Universe. All to what end? Make it okay to root for this guy to kill a lot of people and start an insane death spasm, because it's a superhero movie, and Joker is, here, the hero. So, therefore, the film seems to say, 'Hey check it out! Arthur is socking it to The Man!' when he runs in blood at the end. It's hacky work and very deliberated, because it's a big-budget Batman franchise movie. I think. Your videos are good; I apologize for this essay.
The quality on the visuals here is so seemlessly good, very cool video man great stuff
We appreciate your insights. You'll always have our support.
Just rewatched the movie, now i’m finishing the other half of this video analysis.
It’s a chilling movie
I just finished the video! I liked it, and the quality was very high! Its such a interesting question to discuss and i think you brought so much to make it good and nuanced. Im not very good with words but i can make an attempt. This video kinda feels like when i discuss with mysellf for hours, but instead of me being weird its a human on the other side and the human does a very good job of bringing new info and thoughts into the discussion.
Mental illness is a major theme right? You either empathize or not, and I wish it spoke about it more, but in a sense it shows doesn't tell. Hopefully the joker 2 shows just how corrupt the mental health system actually is, and how outdated society is with treating mental illness, with drugs that cause parkonism to treat schizophrenia for example? Its all bullshit, theres no chemical imbalance? Mention these details to get an even more discussion in a social commentary..
Everyone in society with a mental disability gets treated like a lepar, and all the abuse & bullying will tick someone off.
He's character is purposely targeted because he represents the outcasted misfit, with misanthropic themes. I grew up, very much similar to Flecks story, so I 100% understand and have sympathy & total empathy. Its Falling down.. absolutely cracking sanity against the absolute harshness of how horrible humanity is.
And I think especially after 2020, there's plenty of fleck around..
That would be great, I know the mental health system is a mess, too much corruption
A thorough and even handed video, thank you very much.
So I wanna know what you think of the dark knight rises incident. I’m pretty close to the end here and you haven’t brought it up once, when I feel like it’s important context for the moral panic surrounding Joker.
such a brilliant video, perfectly worded and researched
The last part showing the news reels is insane when you know how much the media itself does what they are accusing the movie of doing.
This movie is an all time masterpiece. Visuals, foreshadowing, interactions all handled with care
Watching this now, thinking "the world is on fire... remember when the world wasn't on fire and we cared that a movie seemed to endorse this kind of intent? I wonder what I'll worry about 4 months from now..."
Hot damn man! Great work. Thank you for an entertaining and thought provoking video. I wish there was more of this calibre of content on TH-cam and grateful the algorithm hooked us up. Subscribe button SMASHED.
This is my ultimate favourite movie. Thanks for this video.
this video is craaazy good it should have like 50x it's views honestly
23 minutes in and I'm totally hooked.
I was absolutely rooting for Arthur once Rock and Roll Pt. 2 came on.
Say what you want about the ills of the internet, but God, I'm thankfull for the magnificent conetent created by insanely devoded and talented indivuduals for our enjoyment. This is the sort of thing you can happily watch through at least twice and still find new things to think about. Good freaking job! May your channel prosper and may it serve you whichever way you hope for.
Joker: "Be nice to the mentally-ill, or they'll kill you."
I think the most heartbreaking thing when it comes to any kind of popular media these days is the death of nuance. People want the morals and themes of their media to be spoon fed to them so they can easily position themselves on the “good side” of the message. It seems no one wants to think critically anymore.
This video was so therapeutic to my own opinion of the Crown after the recent rewatch 👏 excellent work.
I was starving myself bc of anorexia during 2019, so when I watched this movie I understood how arthur acted in the movie bc I was miserable and angry all the time too
What a fantastic video! So well done. Love the Joker bit
I think the director saying "He is the villain we deserve" for being not empathetic enough, for not caring about others enough etc kind of shows a form of endorsement. Hes not saying what Joker does is good. But he is saying we would deserve it, if it happened. I have met people who i believe could have ended up very violent if they made a different turn at some point in their lifes. And if i imagine them hearing the director say this, i can very clearly understand that they would interpret it as "Yes, i have been treated without care, without empathy. This is what all these people truly deserve".
So it is endorsement in that way. But i think its impossible to make any movie about anything remotely "problematic" without some people viewing it as a positive example or as something to strive for. We are all so vastly different and in reality there are people like Arthur, i met some. They have not had a single positive thing happen to them in years, their whole world view is built upon the belief that people are horrible and that they will never have anything good in their life. They are filled with hatred and with feeling like they dont have any control or power. And I know people that have had fantasies like that movie. They didnt do anything violent but they did kind of want to be Arthur in a way. Finally getting "payback".
I think movie discussions often feel so separate from reality and with people talking about "oh no, this movie endorses xyz" it just makes it seem so black and white. Either it endorses it or it doesnt. But thats impossible. Every single movie ever made does both at the same time. To me the discussion should be about "do we accept that movies about problematic topics are neccessarily an endorsement?" And if not, what is the consequence?
Meeptop vid critical of Joker, my day complete
Taxi Driver? Joker resembled King of Comedy quite a bit more.
This is probably my favorite movie since lord of the rings
"Not one thing can go well in Arthur's life" Well actually negativity can be self fulfilling in some people's lives. they attract darkness, create it even with their expectations. Its a real thing. I have seen it in action.
An excellent recent example of this phenomenon is Poor Things. Many audience members felt that the movie was sending mixed messages regarding the sexuality of the character, a character who is a grown woman with the mind of a child for much of the movie. It's very very uncomfortable and camps can not seem to agree whether the movie is endorsing certain ideas, or critiquing them. Especially since typically good and evil characters both take advantage of her.
Just listening to this sounds like im listening to Adam Scott ramble about a movie he likes lol
i love ur vids i wish i came across these masterpieces sooner 😭
Miss ya buddy, looking forward to the next video whenever you get it done!
This is like watching “Joker”. Thanks.
1 hour and 40 minutes in, I just realized that he was dubbing the interviews
Well, I wasn't expecting THAT costume change.
holy fkk that outro is amazing
Bro I was so relieved when you said ‘Martin Scorsese’ right after the ‘but first we have to talk about’ 💀 I was like damn I have to find my phone so I can scrub past the ad read. You da best. Loved the video. Great video.
I think you could do a solid Joker cosplay.
Ok I was not expecting that.
Very good essay!
You remind me of Matt Christmans content. You make clear points with such coherence that seem like they were inevitable.
It’s insane to me that this is your first video of this length, I can’t wait to see where you go from here
I think characters need to be complicated bc people are complicated. If we aren't supposed to be entertained at the very least and have a new thing to ponder after the film at the very most, then we wouldn't have media. No stories. I don't understand why people need their hand held to be told "this person is bad okay" like okay? Anyways? Idk, it's getting frustrating. I want to watch different worlds from different eyes.
Going for the full jokerface was a bold choice.
Comparing wolf of Wall Street to swimming pools was genius.
Don't have much to add other than I loved every second of this🙏🏻
I like how this as long as the movie you're talking about.
I think people are not as media literate anymore, meaning we end up with people wanting to be like characters in fight club or wanting to be like Christian bale
The arthur fleck cosplay is 10/10
Amazing video, I've subbed. I agreed when you were talking about Arthurs depiction being cartoonishly sad, pulling you away from the intended realism of the film. I eventually came to see this as the unreliable narrators bias and given that Arthur is most likely a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist, it's incredibly common for those types of people to always play the victim, regardless of how villainous they may be and manipulate others into feeling sympathy/empathy for them. If the final scene is anything to go by and we have just been told Arthurs depiction of events, then I feel this extreme and kind of one note depiction would actually be a more likely story we would hear from someone like that than a more balanced, fair and realistic depiction of the events of the story
the skit at the end when he dresses up as joker 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
YOU HAVE A TAPE REEL RECORDER!?! LUCKY!!😭
2 hours. just what i was looking for
This has to be one of the most profound analyses of the film I've seen... Well, ever! One that doesn't deify it as the next best thing since sliced bread. While, at the same time, doesn't simplify the nuance that's actually there. Consider me subscribed!
Whether or not Scorsese displays the actions in a movie like The Wolf of Wall Street as horrible actions or not, he is still attributing to the conversation that these actions are 'normalized' to a degree, and are a method of life which people find 'success' living. This can absolutely steer the direction which young minds, (adolescent to teens) tend to go.
I had a close friend I met in highschool, who ended up depressed, and possibly suicidal. But before I even met him, I could tell he wanted to be blunt, wanted to be a leader, and wanted to be rich. The guy even traded stocks during study hall. Due to this, I had a presupposition for who he was. During our first conversation we had, I told him jokingly, 'you remind me of someone whos favorite movie is the wolf of wall street' and he said something like 'yea gotta be one of my favorite movies'.
Throughout our years in highschool together he remained that way, and his personality never really changed from the outside. A couple years later, highschool ended, we were still good friends, though based on what I knew of him, I had an inclination that I did not want to go with him into adulthood, as I strongly believed he would now have more access to drugs and a new circle of unhealthy friends that I wanted no part of.
Very soon after, not even 2 months after graduation, he came to me and vented as to how he hates himself, hates who he has developed himself to be, and wants to come find a new healthy lifestyle and mindset. This is where he became depressed, and uncomfortable with himself.
There are clearly deeper issues at hand with his situation. But he was undoubtedly aestheticising the unhealthy lifestyle displayed in certain movies, and he never was shown how the non-drug ridden lifestyle could be a better way to live until he found out the hard way.
17 years old is the rating for which people can watch an R movie in theaters. Some people that age can take a rated R movie very well, and possibly even walk out enlightened to some capacity. But many people at that age are lost knowing who they are, and are still searching to find a group of people they can identify with. These people are very susceptible to the crowd and media surrounding them, the things they are around forms who they wish to become, wether they like it or not.
The Wolf of Wall Street is rated R, 17 and up. The truth is, we are going to have people who get hurt (in fairly direct ways) from consuming art like The Wolf of Wall Street, especially at younger ages, but this is also entirely dependent on how the individual consuming it takes it.
How do we restrict the wrong people from watching art pieces like this? Should this problem be solved elsewhere and not by restriction? Good questions!
Really amazing video, glad it was recommended! Subscribed
When the movie ended opening night
I started clapping and you felt the tension rise
Then everyone slowly…. Reluctantly started clapping with me
Hahahahahahahahhahah
why did this video never show up in my subscriptions box.
welp i found it now so ill just watch now