Nice to see this comparison. However, not really a fair comparison because one of them was reserving 64K for the EMS page frame, while the other wasn't. You might want to revisit this in the future, and include even more memory managers, such as QEMM and 386MAX.
Hi, Mike, I always used QUEMM, and always tough it was some kind of black magic! Sorry about the unrelated question I don't remember the last time I saw a Gateway 2000 case in person, the gateway logo look embossed to me and shiny gold plated/painted but that G6-180 is a sticker the kind of stickers used on the letters of some keyboards or water transfer decals like the one used on plastic scale model?
No worries! So, the Gateway 2000 is a raised emboss on the case face. Not glued on, but part of the mold. The G6-180 is an inset plastic "decal" and very well done. They tried hard back in those days!
Looks like a great utility, I'll have to try it on my 486 as it might save the hassle of unloading certain drivers to get enough space for those few games that need it.
Thanks for bringing back a lot of memories! I'd never heard of Netroom until today, but back in the day I used to mess around a lot with Memmaker and QEMM.
Well, I'm sure we now know where Microsoft licensed MemMaker from. Just like they licensed ScanDisk from Symantec (it's a simplified version of Norton Disk Doctor). Most of the utilities in MS-DOS 5 and 6 were third party licensed products. It would not surprise me if MemMaker was based on an older version - the way these Microsoft licensing deals work, they usually want full control with full source code, so I'm sure it's an older version of the software.
Memmaker is a licensed version of the Helix software. Don't remember if you mentioned that in you video, but they definitely looks the same and done by the same company. As MS removed Memmaker in DOS7 included in windows 95 and Helix 3.0 is W95 compatible, I suppose, it's more efficient later version. Or they intentionally disabled some optimizations in Memmaker to not compete with themselves.
I forgot all about this- I was a QEMM guy myself but always wanted Netroom. Back in those days I was on a "living with my parents budget" and if a serial could not be found browsing bulletin board sytstems (BBSs) I moved on. I am a little surprised you painted your Gateway. Have you not seen videos on how to use hydrogen peroxide with UV light? Personally, I like the yellowing patina and leave it for character unless if an old crooked sticker comes off and leaves a crooked bright white square.
Hey! So, painting the Gateway was a hard decision but what I couldn't show was the brittleness of the plastic front and it would have dissolved in solution. Also the case sides were metal and in good condition.
I seem to remember Ultima 8 wanting an absolute ton of free conventional memory. I was playing it on my friend's 486, and had previously installed Doublespace to get more space on his hard disk which had filled up, and there just wasn't enough DOS memory left afterwards to play U8. Maybe with careful use of Memmaker or Netroom it would have been possible. I was thinking maybe a couple of options could have allowed Memmaker to free up even more memory -- for example, allowing it to remap monochrome graphics memory for programs, since you're probably not using that mode.
This was fascinating! Never hear of Netroom and would love to know more about how it works now. Maybe I can find a copy someplace. Memmaker performed really badly!
One of the things I don't miss about the MS-DOS era... :) I played a lot of flight simulators, and many of them were tough on base memory. I used QEMM back in the day.
Memmaker had reserved 64k for EMS pagefile but it seems that Netroom didn't. I think you may have been able to get slightly better performance from Memmaker if you turned EMS off
I want to some time, but my thought is darn few retro gamers nowadays bother? I had seen those headaches in person back in my young adult days in the service.
For a very short period of time, a previous business telecoms company that I worked for here in the UK had an MS-DOS based voice call messaging system that was designed to answer incoming calls to call centres - this is going back to the middle of the 1990's. It also had a TCP/IP networking stack on it that allowed it to be controlled externally. For about a month, we had guys on site (on a rotation) at a postal / courier company call centre who spent their entire day sat next to this voice messaging box and just hitting a reboot button on it whenever it fell over, which was about once every thirty minutes or so - the only good thing about it was it recovered itself in about 20 seconds. I only ever saw one of these boxes in a production environment of ours, and the one we "nursemaided" for that four weeks was soon ripped out and replaced with something else.
@@UncleMikeRetro Its more hassle then it was worth. Both times I have seen it used for Imaging. One in 2001 we had a DOS boot floppy set up to where it connected to the novel shared drive on the network. We would use this to run Ghost to image PCs this way. Setting up the floppy for net network cards was a headache. Later we used PXE boot with a DOS environment to connect to a ghostcast server. After PCs stopped coming with floppies. Getting it working was a headache. I remember we had a FUN surprise when we got the first Second Gen I5/I7 chips. Intel had decided NOT to provide the A20 gate in the CPUs any longer, so that loading DOS drivers into high memory no longer functioned. We had to go back and edit the PXE boot image to not load any DOS drivers high.
I have to admit, I never used a utility to do this, I always edited my config.sys and autoexec.bat myself to free up memory. "devicehigh=" and "LH". But these utils were good for the non tech types.
I was the same - I'd let the software do the work first but then do some manual edits to config.sys and autoexec.bat to put things in a more logical order.
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Nice to see this comparison. However, not really a fair comparison because one of them was reserving 64K for the EMS page frame, while the other wasn't. You might want to revisit this in the future, and include even more memory managers, such as QEMM and 386MAX.
I actually did run QEMM after this video came out. Sitting on the results. I have to say that QEMM was nicer to use.
Hi, Mike, I always used QUEMM, and always tough it was some kind of black magic!
Sorry about the unrelated question I don't remember the last time I saw a Gateway 2000 case in person, the gateway logo look embossed to me and shiny gold plated/painted but that G6-180 is a sticker the kind of stickers used on the letters of some keyboards or water transfer decals like the one used on plastic scale model?
No worries!
So, the Gateway 2000 is a raised emboss on the case face. Not glued on, but part of the mold.
The G6-180 is an inset plastic "decal" and very well done. They tried hard back in those days!
Looks like a great utility, I'll have to try it on my 486 as it might save the hassle of unloading certain drivers to get enough space for those few games that need it.
I actually barely made it sweat! It is a life saver for those DOS programs that DEMAND a lot of the 640K
Thanks for bringing back a lot of memories! I'd never heard of Netroom until today, but back in the day I used to mess around a lot with Memmaker and QEMM.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Also, QEMM coming in a few days!
Same setup, same starting RAM available. Some surprises...
Well, I'm sure we now know where Microsoft licensed MemMaker from. Just like they licensed ScanDisk from Symantec (it's a simplified version of Norton Disk Doctor). Most of the utilities in MS-DOS 5 and 6 were third party licensed products. It would not surprise me if MemMaker was based on an older version - the way these Microsoft licensing deals work, they usually want full control with full source code, so I'm sure it's an older version of the software.
i HAVE to agree. Like Logitech getting mouse driver cloaking from Helix back then too. I do like the simplicity of MEMMAKER though
Memmaker is a licensed version of the Helix software. Don't remember if you mentioned that in you video, but they definitely looks the same and done by the same company. As MS removed Memmaker in DOS7 included in windows 95 and Helix 3.0 is W95 compatible, I suppose, it's more efficient later version. Or they intentionally disabled some optimizations in Memmaker to not compete with themselves.
Yes! they simplified it in MEMMAKER. Still the best for casual use in my opinion (plus free back then)
I forgot all about this- I was a QEMM guy myself but always wanted Netroom. Back in those days I was on a "living with my parents budget" and if a serial could not be found browsing bulletin board sytstems (BBSs) I moved on.
I am a little surprised you painted your Gateway. Have you not seen videos on how to use hydrogen peroxide with UV light?
Personally, I like the yellowing patina and leave it for character unless if an old crooked sticker comes off and leaves a crooked bright white square.
Hey! So, painting the Gateway was a hard decision but what I couldn't show was the brittleness of the plastic front and it would have dissolved in solution. Also the case sides were metal and in good condition.
I seem to remember Ultima 8 wanting an absolute ton of free conventional memory. I was playing it on my friend's 486, and had previously installed Doublespace to get more space on his hard disk which had filled up, and there just wasn't enough DOS memory left afterwards to play U8. Maybe with careful use of Memmaker or Netroom it would have been possible.
I was thinking maybe a couple of options could have allowed Memmaker to free up even more memory -- for example, allowing it to remap monochrome graphics memory for programs, since you're probably not using that mode.
I think with Netroom or QEMM it may have been possible. I agree that with doublespace and memmaker, it usually failed.
This was fascinating! Never hear of Netroom and would love to know more about how it works now. Maybe I can find a copy someplace. Memmaker performed really badly!
Thanks, pal! Netroom is available on the archives. Also, adding in QEMM in a little bit. More surprises!
Great work 👌
Greetings from north Africa (Algeria)
You are way too kind with your praise! Glad to meet you 🥰
One of the things I don't miss about the MS-DOS era... :) I played a lot of flight simulators, and many of them were tough on base memory. I used QEMM back in the day.
Nice! Update with QEMM coming in a week! MEMMAKER vs Netroom vs QEMM on the same setup.
@@UncleMikeRetro Will be tuning in for sure! Cheers!
Back at you, pal! 🥰
Memmaker had reserved 64k for EMS pagefile but it seems that Netroom didn't. I think you may have been able to get slightly better performance from Memmaker if you turned EMS off
Agreed. I did want to make this an example of a DOS boot that could run any number of games.
@@UncleMikeRetro No, then that should be another video- or change the title...
@@shaun4bigblocks993 Hard to be all things... right?
You could get that back
If my memory serves me , when you load EMM386.exe, you add "noems"
Also if you want to see a MESS, try DOS networking.. the amount of TSRs loaded will make you cry as all your memory is taken up.
I want to some time, but my thought is darn few retro gamers nowadays bother? I had seen those headaches in person back in my young adult days in the service.
For a very short period of time, a previous business telecoms company that I worked for here in the UK had an MS-DOS based voice call messaging system that was designed to answer incoming calls to call centres - this is going back to the middle of the 1990's. It also had a TCP/IP networking stack on it that allowed it to be controlled externally.
For about a month, we had guys on site (on a rotation) at a postal / courier company call centre who spent their entire day sat next to this voice messaging box and just hitting a reboot button on it whenever it fell over, which was about once every thirty minutes or so - the only good thing about it was it recovered itself in about 20 seconds.
I only ever saw one of these boxes in a production environment of ours, and the one we "nursemaided" for that four weeks was soon ripped out and replaced with something else.
@@UncleMikeRetro Its more hassle then it was worth. Both times I have seen it used for Imaging. One in 2001 we had a DOS boot floppy set up to where it connected to the novel shared drive on the network. We would use this to run Ghost to image PCs this way. Setting up the floppy for net network cards was a headache. Later we used PXE boot with a DOS environment to connect to a ghostcast server. After PCs stopped coming with floppies. Getting it working was a headache. I remember we had a FUN surprise when we got the first Second Gen I5/I7 chips. Intel had decided NOT to provide the A20 gate in the CPUs any longer, so that loading DOS drivers into high memory no longer functioned. We had to go back and edit the PXE boot image to not load any DOS drivers high.
UGH. I had a token ring network myself back then. It seemed wayyyy easier!
I have to admit, I never used a utility to do this, I always edited my config.sys and autoexec.bat myself to free up memory. "devicehigh=" and "LH". But these utils were good for the non tech types.
I like to let the software "do its thing" I am not 100% a true techy guy, but used the stuff back in that day.
I was the same - I'd let the software do the work first but then do some manual edits to config.sys and autoexec.bat to put things in a more logical order.
Ah! Every time I screwed around with mine back then, it seemed I'd hose the system. Back to format C: and all
@@UncleMikeRetro Hey, I never said that me messing about with manual editing worked all the time! I had some spectacular breakages.