Beethoven's 2 Hardest Measures?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Have you played them? What do you think, are these the most difficult measures in all of Beethoven? Comment below!
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Chapters:
00:00 - Are these the hardest 2 bars?
03:20 - Why?
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There's really no excuse for wussing out here. Nice catch on the Schiff performance!
That cheat by Andras Schiff is astounding. Goes to show what monstrous techniques Arrau and Pollini had, both of whose videos were recorded in live performances. Arrau in particular has utter tonal presence. Nothing is missing. The harmonies are fully realized, even at his crazy tempo. What must it have cost him to get to that level of pianistic perfection?
I agree! This passage from Arrau is so confident, bold, secure, and perfectly musical... it's astonishing!
I'm not surprised with Schiff tho. He's is notorious for simplifying passages if they are too technically difficult. That's what happens when you only practice Bach instead of technical exercises.
@nishantmodak4744 😂 I'm not sure who should be more offended, Schiff, or Bach! But you have me rolling on the floor laughing lol!
@@PianistAcademy1 Ah, life is good! A lighthearted discussion among piano nerds - I love it!
@@Numberonesorabjifan True! I think it was Busoni or Heinrich Neuhaus who said that diligent study of Bach AND Chopin AND Liszt makes Beethoven possible. As you correctly point out, Schiff has neglected the latter two, so he simply doesn't have the necessary equipment to play Beethoven at the highest levels. Unlike Arrau, Richter, Rubinstein, Pollini, Backhaus, and so on. Even Kempff, with his notably more modest technical gifts, had made a serious study of Chopin and Liszt. And While he had to slow down some difficult passages in Beethoven, there's an overall command of Beethoven's music that I feel Schiff never had.
There's something about the fugue in the development section of the 4th movement of Op. 101 that makes it incredibly hard to learn. I had to work an extraordinary amount of time on that to feel comfortable with it. It's not just the difficulty of keeping track of 4 voices that are often far apart on the piano, but also that the structure of the fugue takes a long time to make sense of. I watched a live recording of Barenboim performing it, and in my opinion, he barely holds it together.
Completely agree. I would go as far as saying that op. 101 is the hardest Beethoven sonata, harder even than op. 106 because 101 is way more exposed. The fugue and the 4th movement as a whole has some of the most awkward passages I have ever seen in any piece by any composer. It is surely on the top 3 hardest sonatas by Bonn’s genius
The second movement of op. 101 is also extremely hard, one must be in absolute control of one’s emotions to not miss a single note haha
4th movement of op. 101. It’s one of those that doesn’t look hard, doesn’t sound flashy, but that was a beast for me to learn.
Haha, as soon as you said which sonata it was, I immediately knew which bars you're talking about. I also find it so difficult, because we're coming from something rather technically easy but very expressive....so the start of the Allegro feels like a cold start.
Then, I also think, that if you're not careful, you somehow start to rush, because every resolution chord is also the first chord of a new beginning (for example the Gmajor 6th chord at the beginning of the second bar), so you never really have a rest in the phrasing.
Last but not least: We've twice had the scale c, bflat, aflat, g, f before but only in thirds AND (crucially) starting on downbeat. That means, already the beginning of this part feels rushed (by design), and it's not easy to not add insult to injury and rush even more, and in doing so already starting this whole figure unprepared and "on your back foot."
Practise tips:
First of all: As much as possible with the metronome, so that you immediately realise, when you're rushing. I know, that a little going forward makes sense in here, but it has to be well calculated and done purposely, not "stumbled" into it.
Also: I was forced to practise this sonata for my closing exam at university, while having pretty much pain in my lower arms and elbows (especially the right one). So my only chance of being able to practise for longer was to practise most of the time in exteremely slow tempo, really letting go even the tiniest tensions in my arms. This way of practising was extremely tiring and time-consuming, BUT I spend a lot of time unconsciously analyzing even my smallest movements and therefore I was able to remain relaxed even at higher tempos. So actually, the first movement of the Sonata got picked at the exam (I didn't know beforehand, what I needed to play), and this part went well!
Also, one little remark on the Tempo: Czerny writes a Tempo of 112. So, his metronome marks being the closest source that we have to Beethoven (check here: vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/7/76/IMSLP317672-PMLP513421-Czerny_Pschule4.pdf, page 63), I believe, we can make life a little easier and don't have to play THAT super-fast. I actually also like a little bit slower tempo (around 112-120) better, because I believe, it suits more this "passionate goodbye"-mood of the Allegro.
These are fantastic tips which I couldn’t agree with more! In my personal Henle edition of this, I have backwards arrows penciled in over these two bars to remind me not to rush through them! It’s a bit of a balancing act here because, to maintain the emotion we can’t pull back, but equally important that it doesn’t run away from us both for technical and musical reasons.
Thanks for linking the Czerny text! I agree with your tempo of between 112 and 120 as well. Faster tempi sound too quick… I almost visualize suitcases unlocking and clothing flying out of the back of a carriage 😂 instead of the excited bustle of leaving home. But on the slower side (near 110) we also need to be sure the playing doesn’t get too heavy. For example, I didn’t play much of Barenboim’s performance here in this video, but I find the opening of his Allegro to be almost “pesante,” which I also dislike.
If you take a look through my comments here with Peter below, we’ve gotten into a historical talk about tempi in Beethoven and the double beat theory… and also that the MM for “Allegro” on Beethovenian-era devices was far faster than todays MM marks… which could lend itself to a more accurate interpretation of double beat theory… ie if Beethoven’s metronome had 180 within Allegro, and we half that, we end up with 90 for the half note which, is still slow by today’s standards but can still make musical sense. Whereas taking a marking of 112 or 120, halving it, and then saying that’s the tempo Beethoven intended seems really far off the mark, to me at least.
The whole being relaxed when playing on fast tempos has always been my Achiles' heel. I have developed injuries and I absolutely prohibited myself to play at a fast tempo unless I had played it ad nauseum at a painfully slow tempo feeling like I had taken a large dose of muscle relaxants or horse tranquilizers. I'm such a neurotic person that it takes a huge amount of effort for me to relax while playing difficult and fast passages. This decision has made it feel like I've made a huge regression, since it's extremely tiring, time-consuming and I never get it to sound as fast as I did before I've made this decision, but I have faith that this is the right way and I am indeed making progress.
Glad to finally hear someone mention this sonata! I remember having to practice these two bars while walking around the grocery store just to learn this movement. It’s just a killer on the wrists!
By far it's the trills at the end of the second movement of Op.111. Nightmare inducing.
That can be brutal, yes! Those bars remind me a bit of variation 10 in Liszt's 6th Paganini Etude, but even in the etude, the trills don't last for the 2 to 4 minutes (Depending on tempo taken) that they do in 111.
Because of those trills, I limited myself to learning only the first movement.
What about all those triplets in the third movement of the Waldstein? Because of them I learned only the first movement.
@@paulkramer7844 I wouldn't be as fearful of those. They all fit very nicely in the hand, and the running passagework feels a bit Mozartian to me, which can lend itself to a more relaxed hand position throughout. I'd definitely give them a go before throwing the towel in! The final movement of Waldstein is so beautiful!
I agree, when I studied Sonata Op. 111 ... I spend 2 months in trills to the end
I'm in love with your content ❤ please continue doing what you're doing!
Absolutely, Jennifer! Thanks so much for watching!
Agree with your assessment of Les Adieux. I played it years ago when I had much more facility in my hands. For me, a close runner-up is the A Quattro bass variation of Beethoven's Eroica Variations - the (mostly) thirds in the right hand with repeated notes are difficult to play cleanly at speed, and I've heard a lot of pianists mess them up.
knew which passage it would be just from the title!
I have been working on this sonata on and off for the past 2 years (playing for my masters recital)
I find that with this passage, if I don't practice it every day I lose it, and any tension at all results in a jumble of notes
Absolutely, Jonathan! I also first learned this one for one of my Masters' recitals!
Haven't played it, but out of those that I did play, the hardest measures are in Op. 106 4th movement; there's a crazy part after that chorale section with the right hand playing both the theme and its inversion in stretto
The glissandi in octaves in the Sonata No. 21 in C major, final movement, bars 464-473 are notorious, but I don't think they're as difficult as your example. It requires a relaxed bounce to play those triads so quickly, but they have to be played with power...and how do we do both?
Great reference there in the Waldstein! I’ve seen that passage actually played gliss with LH and plain old traditional with RH, which adds a bit of clarity and crispness to it. If I were to play it, I’d probably choose the same thing there.
You’re right about the bounce in the wrist, along with some nice attack from the fingers. Very similar technique to playing octaves in Liszt… but made more difficult by all the wrist turns and rotations… once again, Beethoven ahead of his time!!!
I am currently studying this Beethoven sonata, and I didn't realize how hard this two bars were until I sped up this movement and the third one, which seemingly has a lot more technical difficulties, but still, kept messing up every single time I get to those bars in tempo. I have read it a couple of weeks ago and left it aside for some time to work on a Scriabin Sonata and some Rachmaninoff etudes. Still, the only piece, out of the ones I am studying, I am afraid I might not be able to polish well is this sonata, because of that measures. Still need to figure them out...
Which Rach etudes are you working on as well? Love those pieces too. Isn't it funny how a handful of measures can need such disproportionate practice from so much other music? Funny may not be the right word... frustrating sometimes!!
@@PianistAcademy1 Definitely frustrating! I am playing Rach etudes Op. 33 1, 2 and 3, which are definitely on the easier side of the etudes but very fun to play and listen on my opinion, and I am also working on Scriabin's second sonata which is beautiful but has a lot of hidden challenges on the first movement.
81a is the only Beethoven sonata Godowsky recorded. It was his 'go-to' sonata on the stage. I never noticed struggle but now, having seen what you mean, I'll re-listen and see how he negotiates it. I can tell you that in the allegro finale of op. 10, no.3 (D major) there's a passage of semiquavers 4 to a beat that most pianists take at quite a clip; in the middle of the passage, bar 71, he writes two sets of 5 to the beat, then reverts to 4. I've never been able to figure out how to accomplish that in a fast tempo so that it's reliable. Horowitz rescores it in 4 to a beat. I took that as permission to do the same. No one notices.
I have recently played It, and I totally agree with you!!
Measures 233-235 of the 4th movement of the Hammerklavier are also really difficult because of the jumps, trills, and tempo, but they might not be as difficult as the ones in the video.
Bars 216-220 of the 4th movement of the op.101. Very underestimated, beautiful Sonata, containing some of the most difficult passages of any of the Beethoven pieces I’ve ever played.
I'm Russian and Iknow Beethoven's sonatas by numbers 1 to 32, and I realized not too long ago that in the west people usually refer to them by opus or a name. Opus is harder to memorize than the 2 digit number!
Having worked on Nos. 7, 8, 14, 22, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, I totally agree that these two bars are outstanding in terms of difficulty. But the fugue in 29 is harder on my ears...
I couldn't tell you any Beethoven Sonata by number only haha. Chalk it up to a difference in the educational systems around the world :-). Whatever works for you is great! I'll have to ask some of my Russian friends if they go by Opus or number and see what they say!
Great video! Lol at the Schiff recording
Surprised Arrau took such a rapid tempo. Funny, the moment I recognized Op 81A I knew which measures you would mention! I personally didnt struggle with them, but I can recall a former teacher botching the second measure in a live performance once.
Nice, Erika! I would love to know what it's like to feel confident in these bars!
Arrau's performance of this sonata is incredible. I'm pretty sure you can find it here on TH-cam. I was lucky enough to hear him live with LvB's 4th back in 1984. He was 80 at the time and to this day I've never forgotten his performance that night.
@@PianistAcademy1 It's been awhile to be honest! I've been plagued by carpal tunnel and tendonitis issues and haven't played in a long time.
@@kennywood6434 My introduction to the Arrau was a cassette of the famous Big 4 - Op 13, Op 27 No 2, Op 53, Op 57. He set the standard for the tempi of those pieces, and was I ever shocked when I heard others perform them later, particularly the first movement of the Appassionata. He didn't hesitate with the intro or those evil two measures in Les Adieux however!
@@erika6651 I'm so sorry to hear that, Erik!! Are you working with any physical therapy or something similar to work through it?
One bit in beethoven's sonatas that is deceptively difficult and gave me a lot of pain when I was a student was the first movement of Grand sonata op.7. The combination of the constant change in motifs from scales, tremolo octaves and the tremolo chords at the end of the exposition, it's carpal tunnel material.
very nice video!
Thank you!
Yeah, those two measures were a MAJOR pain in the ass when I was studying this sonata. I think I nailed them perfectly just once during a performance; all the other times, something always happened.
Like many I have spent almost a lifetime fingering these measures. If I may I would like to pass on my solutions.
Exposition, from the second beat. In the right hand there are 7 alterations from the fingering as displayed in your video.
Right hand. 5/1, 5/2, 4/1, (5/2,4/1,3/2,)
3/1, 4/2, 5/3, 4/2, (5/2,4/2,3/2,4/2 finishing on 4/2.)
Left hand. There are 5 changes in the left hand.
Last 4 notes of previous measure (3,2,1,2) 1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1/3, finishing on 1/3
Recapitulation Right hand 4 changes (5/1,5/2,4/1,3/2) 3/1, 4/2, 5/3,
(4/2,5/2,4/2,3/2,4/2) 5/2, finishing on 4/2.
Left hand 6 changes
Last 4 notes of previous measure (3,2,1,4)
From first beat.
3,1,3or2, (1,2,3,4,2,1,2,3,)1,2,3,1/3,1/3, finishing with 2/3
Pity I can’t upload a couple of photos!!
More about Beethoven please! 😊
I'll be diving into some Chopin for a few upcoming videos, but I'm sure Beethoven will be back soon!
you're 100% right!
I haven't played this sonata, so my suggestion may be completely wrong, but is it possible to give some of the right hand notes to the left hand, and if so does that make a difference?
The left hand is between 1 and nearly 3 octaves away, so any redistribution of notes would be physically impossible, but it’s a great thought!
Marvelous presentation! Well done sir! I personally find "Chopsticks" quite challenging on the piano! LOL!
Thank you and LOL!
Good practice can overcome mechanical challenges in 81a. If not op 111, the 2 hardest bars have got to be the octave glissando in Waldstein 3rd movt. At least on the modern grand piano.
Maybe I'll suggest an alternative fingering system for the eighth notes in the 2nd bar in the above passage, which I found to be superior when playing this many years ago, and which you may find helpful.
13 - 124 - 135 - 124 - 125 - 135 - 124 - 125.
This results in different fingering for the repeated chords (the DGB and, possibly, the GCE), not unlike how you would sometimes use different fingers on repeated single notes.
I'll have to look more closely, but I might already be using this fingering myself! (I don't use the editor's fingering in the score I show on screen).
And about the Waldstein, what about taking the gliss only with LH and having RH play just a C scale downward? I've seen many tackle those bars just that way, and while I haven't played Waldstein myself, that's probably also what I'd choose.
Unexpectedly good video! Schiff did it the right way haha!
Cheers!
Thanks!!
You've only got a look at the passage ad think oh christ that's looks difficult!
It's one of he's best, most joyous sonatas!
I worked at this movement many years ago, without really mastering it. Yes the second time is significantly easier. I did find it quite 'hit and miss'. Occasionally it was possible to shake out those chords, but certainly not for me reliably; the pattern is more accommodating in the recapitulation.
Opus 111's triple trill and extended 4/5 trill (3/4 is just a possibility) while the thumb and first finger play the melody must be amongst the most difficult passages.
Ive played N.6 in F major, N.9 in E major, N.18 in E flat Major, and currently learning n21 in C major, the Waldstein sonata. The hardest part, not sugarcoating it, is in the third movement, with the glissandi octaves which torture my small hands as my teacher FORBIDS me from playing simple scales... The whole thing is hard, but not like this.
The closest thing to this which Im also currently learning is Prokofiev's Toccata, which in a certain part has like 2 measures of the right hand playing ascending , 3 note chromatic chords, while the left hand descends in chromatic octaves. You have the same ''sometimes its in a black key and you rotate the hand a lot in an extreme area of the piano'' and the left hand is also pretty easy like in this sonata. It doesnt go as fast, quarter notes is 104 and those chords are sixteenth notes, sure Argerich or Yuja go much faster but I can never reach their speed, Im currently stuck at 90 and its already fast enough...
i like the dynamics of keyboard he is playing -)
Learning this right now haha
Have fun! You'll have to let me know if you agree, or if you find the opening of the 3rd movement more challenging!
I choked my water as soon as I heard the first note of this sonata.. so relatable I got depressed practicing those 2 bars!!
My teacher came up with a solution that worked for me (disclaimer: I’m only an amateur who has attempted this sonata but never performed it).
Beginning from the 2nd beat of the 1st measure in question, the RH fingerings I used were: 15, 24, 13, 25, 14, 23
I found the 2nd measure comparatively easier than the 1st: 14, 135, 124, 124, 125, 135, 124, 125
Still required careful practice, but I got it right enough times that a bigger problem for me was pulling off a satisfactory crescendo. Note that I can stretch a 10th so maybe this fingering wouldn’t work as well for other spans.
The 3rd movement is still one of the hardest things I’ve ever attempted.
Agree 100% on that super treacherous passage in Les Adieux.
But the Finale is also devilishly difficult as a whole.
It is!
i knew the measures before i even clicked on the video. my professor calls it "the thing" and every time he heard it he would talk about it. so rewarding once you get it the way you want it though!
"The Thing" I love it haha!
Great observation. Would be nice if late 19c piano makers hadn't standardized wider keys than Beethoven ever played.
Was the reason because the bulkier hammers and actions of the increasingly louder, steel framed pianos necessitated that a finger have a larger key surface to have sufficient leverage? (as in: the keys got too heavy if they remained the same small size? That's my best guess)
I'd say both key size as well as the much lighter action on Beethoven's pianos would have made these bars easier... not to mention the entire discussion about tempo in Beethoven's era vs today... for example the MM that "Allegro" meant may well have been different and in fact slower.
@@PianistAcademy1 Smaller keys require even more accuracy and the action of period instruments were bad at repeating notes fast. They don't let you get away with banging light speed fortissimo either, as their sound really starts to suffer. If a passage is practically impossible to play with a modern instrument at speed, it surely was that with period ones as well, and that leads us into the discussion of tempo, indeed.
@@lemonemmi Great observations!
These are difficult bars, no doubt, but I'd argue that different pianists will find different bits of Beethoven more difficult. I have small hands, so trilling with fingers 1 & 2 while pinging out the theme with finger 5 (as in the finale of Op109) is hard for me.
But you're right that second time around these bars (slightly different as they are) usually come much more easily. One thing I find is that this is a such an exciting part of the sonata that most pianists - me included! - push the tempo, which Beethoven doesn't ask for. I'd be interested to hear some practical solutions for this section, now that we're all agreed it's hard. 😁
I agree completely with your assessment of technique in Beethoven! Different bits will “fit” different pianists more easily.
About stopping the push forward through these bars, I use a backwards arrow in my score to remind me, not to ritard, but just to very consciously feel the tempo pushing back against me. I also “enjoy” achieving tempi in practice (for any difficult passage) that’s something like 5 to 10 bpm faster than I want in performance. Then when it comes time to truly play the passage, I feel much more in control of it at the tempo I’ve chosen for musical reasons.
I have relatively large hands and the trills in the finale of 109 were still extremely awkward. It’s just so difficult to keep them even but not overpowering, while still maintaining good phrasing.
Very much agree with these two ever-thorny measures. Other possible vote entries (admittedly still a bit under this one, which does take the cake) might be measures 103-109 in the op.111, just because of the cruel contrary/parallel hand contortions he puts you through there; 167-175 in the op.101 finale (you can hear Richter missing like half the notes here in his live Prague series); and measures 12-15 in the fugue variation of the op.109 (fellow music nerds reading this likely know the story of Gould saying what a terror that moment was and that he got 'unblocked' on it by practicing while listening to a vacuum cleaner... ha, of course). Anyway, really lovely video; thank you.
As someone learning the op109 sonata at the moment... that moment is an absolute stinker to play!!
Oh Gould... what an interesting guy!
For some reason, I find that in his op.27 sonata, the second movement with the section in Ab was impossible for me to sight read at performance speed without repeating a few bars.
Never tackled #26. I've done #1, #3 [or whicher the "frog" one was], #8, #23. The passage you've cited seems quite brutal.
However, I found the twin third-interval turns of the right hand, while the left hand is chromatically descending in triplets [oh, forgot: R.H. melody *not* in triplets] in the 1rst movement of the Emperor Concerto at least as difficult. But you're considering only the Sonatas.
I also thought the 3rd movement of Sonata #23 [Apassioanata] was very difficult.
I actually didn't like the Hammerlavier, so I never leanred it. I much prefer Mendelssohn's Bb Sonata, which has this really cool "Steeplechase" Scherzo 2nd mvmt.
I didn't know Beethoven had a "frog" sonata.
I find that the trills in the 30th and 32nd measur3es of the 3rd movement of the Moonlight are difficult. The one in measure 30 is OK but the other in measure 32 has the 4th finger starts a turn on G followed by the 4th on G# then an E# . It's easier if one does not play the octave but sounds weak.
I was thinking on this exact passage last week listen to various sonatas to choose repertoire. I think also the hammerklavier fugue on the difficult I think last stretto and maybe double trills on waldstein and sonata 30 and 32 one of the hardest passagges . I also think that appassionata are easier than waldstein, what do you think on that topic
Personally, I don’t have any intention on learning the Hammerklavier. It’s a great work, definitely, but it doesn’t speak to me musically the way other of Beethoven’s works have, and I just can’t justify the immense amount of time to learn such a piece when there’s so much other rep that I personally enjoy more.
I’ve played Appassionata but not Waldstein, so I can’t comment from personal experience with both, but for me the spots that most people find difficult in Appassionata I just love playing and don’t find them too hard (coda of 3rd mvt for example).
I have played this sonata. I think you're absolutely right. This first movement is where the majority of the difficulty of this sonata is, I found. However, for my taste, I think this is a weird case where for me, the convincing tempo range for this Allegro section of this movement is at a very narrow half note = 108-112. I think any faster or slower than this range is not convincing.
No, not weird! I actually agree! Czerny's MM recommendation is 112 as well. I, personally feel like I lean a bit toward 115, but to me 120 and definitely over 130 sound too chaotic and rushed.
I've always loved this sonata even though on the whole it's difficult (as is Beethoven, in general). I once played it for Perahia in a masterclass and missed a few of the notes in the passage you're singling out and he knew EXACTLY which notes I'd omitted LOL! I don't know, if I agree that these bars are the most difficult in all of Beethoven, but they're, certainly, near the top.
What a fantastic experience, playing for Perahia! Unforgettable, I'm sure!
@@PianistAcademy1 It was, yes. I played twice for him, actually. Second time was with Mozart 333. I've played for many others, too, but he's always stood out for me, since he's one of my all time favorite pianists. I've heard him several times over the years and met him after his recitals and he's always remembered me. He's a very nice guy.
@kennywood6434 I have a handful of masterclass memories... from being told "play like your fingers are sausages" to "why waste your time learning such stupid music" ... both with quite famous pianists who shall go unnamed 😂. Never had a chance to play for Perahia!
@@PianistAcademy1 Seriously... "why waste your time learning such stupid music"??? Wow. Now THAT is a mouthful! You've got my wheels spinning now trying to think of who that could have been 😂
@@PianistAcademy1 Maybe we could get the name of the piece that evoked the second comment? That is definitely some passionate language being used!!
YES YES YES YES YES! Finally someone to say it. I practiced that passage LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF TIMES and never managed to play it properly.
I was at the RAM waiting on the corridor for a consultation lesson and was practicing that passage on my lap. There was a girl just across who saw me and said: “Les Adieux?”
Couldn’t agree more with absolutely everything you said.
I'm glad we can both find comfort in each others' struggles with this passage 😂
I guessed it. I really did. It’s true. These two measures simply do not fit the hand. It’s one of very many examples where Beethoven hears a motif and could care less whether the hands can play it.
And I have played this sonata. And I love it. Reminds me a lot of the Emperor piano concerto.
For me, the hardest is actually the first movement of no 2 particularly the triplet runs in the left hand of the first movement but there are other sections.
Beethoven managed to give Franz Liszt a challenge. I am sure Beethoven mentioned these measures as Liszt entered the afterlife with a gotcha tone (and then probably played faux follets while making sleeping gestures along with some insane variations). (They probably are besties but also flip out at each other now)
Love this! Lol
The short double thirds figure at the beginning of op2 no3 are frustratingly difficult for as simple as they look. And I have a personal grudge against them
Sweated blood over these two bars (a little less in the development, as you say). Even at the slightly broader allegro tempo that I prefer for this movement, the chords left out by Schiff are terribly hard, for the reasons you mention. I don't know why he didn't at least play the notes for the thumb. I take it that to qualify for this competition, an entry has to be specifically fiendish in some way, rather than just part of a hard piece, or requiring mastery of some standard virtuoso trick. On this basis, I nominate the Scherzo of Op 101 (bar 25) which is in 4-part counterpoint, with really tricky syncopations. I find I can practise it as much as I can stand, without being sure it will work next time. Also bars 209-12 of the first movement of Op 106 which you wouldn't say are anywhere near the hardest to play in this proverbially impossible piece, but have their own sort of impossibility - how many pianists actually play the triplets all the way to the bitter end?
Thanks for watching, and yes great nominations here as well. One of interesting things (that I knew but that's been reinforced by many comments here) is that "difficulty" can be different depending on how an individual's technique has been honed... or what they might naturally excel at. There are some comments here saying that these bars are quite easy (LOL) but... for my own hands I'd go as far as saying the octave passages in the Liszt Sonata (beginning and end) are easier for me than these 2 bars!
@@PianistAcademy1 I also don't find those octave passages nearly as hard as these two bars, though Liszt interlocking octaves defeat me. I suspect that larger hands than mine might find the constant change from white to black notes in the right hand chords easier to accommodate. Anyhow, it is clearly very idiosyncratic and personal.
Hah! Guessed it! The same passage! And just as you suggest, I picked the darn the Sonata because I thought it was a sort of *light* version of the Hammerklavier and the Emperor Concerto combined 🙄 Thanks to your video here, I don’t feel like as much of a fool.
One thing I would point that Beethoven's piano is not the today standard for what a piano should be. In that instrument that could maybe be performed with some ease. Wouldn't count on the instrument by itself, but shallower key down, and smaller keys make most of XIX Century Repertoire more accessible to people today. And secondly, we have to stand up for performers so great that any passage could be someone's nightmare. I agree this passage is hellish to play at today's standards. But changing instrument and adjust techniques for older instruments could make it more feasible to a mere mortal.
Fantastic comment, Pedro! Completely on point, love this!
Interesting that this video got recommended to me even though I don't follow this channel. The AI clearly knows what I like. I played the Les Adieux Sonata back when I was a child (as an exam piece no less), so I know that those bars are tricky. It was touch and go every time I played it, but I wasn't that fussed about it as no one expects a 13/14 year old to play perfectly, right? A few years later, I would see similar things in Rachmaninoff's concerti, only now, it is even harder as they are octave chords with inner notes. That, for me, is the most brutal thing. Fast, double-handed octave passages are difficult enough - you need lots of stamina just to get through. I could play Liszt's double-handed octaves okay (e.g., Hungarian Rhapsody no. 15), but fill them with inner notes too, and it's just impossible..... 😞
I always love hearing about others’ experiences like this. Technique seems to be such an individual thing… some excel at certain aspects more easily than others. I’m currently learning a bit of the Rach 2nd Sonata (I specifically chose not to learn it during my degrees because *everyone* was learning it lol) and the technique just falls nicely in my hands. It’s not easy, but none of it feels scary. But no matter how much I’ve practiced these two bars of Les Adieux, they always scare me lol.
Charles Rosen spoke and wrote of Op. 81A as extremely difficult. Most pianists sound taxed and awkward in these two measures. I personally believe Beethoven wanted them to sound labored in order to convey his intended musical thought.
Interesting! Maybe that's why some pianists choose to pull back here? To add to the "labored" sound? I've always heard them as ascending excitement paired with the cresc through, followed by some anxiety in the inverted half diminished chord in the next bar.
I played the farewell in grad school. Beastly for sure.
Perhaps it was not Beethoven's intention to play his composition so quickly? We are accustomed in this day and age to fast performances by the best pianists, and tend to consider a slower performance amateurish. But a slow performance doesn't sound that crazy; the most difficult bars become playable and it is, as I said, perhaps the way Beethoven played it himself and others in his day.
No. It was exactly his intention. And please lets not start with this musical equivalent of the flat-earth theory, which is the full beat method. Pianos back then where much more quick to react to touch, it is easier to play fast on them, than on modern pianos.
@@Quotenwagnerianer Ok, but how do you know that for sure? Exactly his intention?
@@DBoudewijnAussems Metronome markings by himself and his direct pupils.
Beethoven's tempi were quick.
Oddly enough, I had actually thought about ‘Das Liebewohl’ when you suggested a couple of tough measures. Sure wish the I had figured out how much easier and faster it could just by dropping a few notes! LOL Before we get too smug, remember that Rubinstein talked about simplifying some of Albeniz’s pieces by dropping some notes. ITS ENTERTAINMENT! Play the way people like to hear it and don’t worry that the composer is turning over in their graves because you made a few things easier for yourself! BTW, They aren’t the 2 most difficult. Not sure what I would nominate, but not those.
I agree with your statement about entertainment most definitely! But isn't there a point where it's no longer what the composer wrote at all? If we leave out 50% or more of the notes in a bar... I'm pretty sure we've crossed that line... probably by a good 40% at least!
I haven't played all the sonatas, but have done this one, and yes, it's fiendish.
I was assigned 81a in college. I'm a good sight reader, but when I came to those measures all bets were off. "But they're just triads!" HA! I never mastered them and it was never clear to me why they were so difficult. OF COURSE I'm off to the piano now to attempt them once again. [I'm sort of shocked about Andras Schiff].
What about the octaves in the last movement of waldstein? Glissando always sounds off and regular playing is impossible in high tempo
I've seen many take the upper as a simple downward scale with RH and still gliss the LH, which would make this considerably easier, especially on the modern piano with its very heavy keys. But otherwise, if a true gliss is attempted it's almost stupidly difficult to accomplish with hardly any musical benefit lol!
I agree
This two measures are horribly hard of course! There's a parallel fourths passage at op. 101's 4th movement that is equally awkward for me (I've played both).
I’ve not played 101, but those bars near the end of the final movement at tempo look pretty brutal!
@@PianistAcademy1 I don't think I ever truly pulled off those upper-right-hand trills.
Nothing quite like the Alberti bass in tenths in the first movement of Op. 90.
🤣 that's definitely tough at tempo! Beethoven and Schubert both succeeded in writing some incredibly difficult Alberti bass!
Bar 181 onward part of the development of first movement in Op.2 No2 should definitely be in the running for hardest sections...
31st sonata, third movement, measure 5
Funny, I was thinking of exactly those two bars. I'm working on the piece right now, and those two bars have given me so, so much trouble, and this comes from a guy who typically plays very chord-intensive music like Messiaen.
I studied in CNSM in Paris and never seriously tried to work these 2 bars...
I always found the Finale of the Archduke trio (bars 152-184), the fugue of the cello sonata op. 102 n. 2, and the fugue of the Hammerklavier more difficult than the one in the video.
Every person is different and what’s difficult for someone might be easier for someone else.
Also the glissando octaves (op. 53, op. 1 n.1, op. 15) are pretty unforgiving on modern pianos, especially those with big heavy keys like the Bösendorfers.
Yes, I definitely agree that different pianists' techniques make certain passages easier for some and more difficult for others. Simply the stamina needed to play the entire Hammerklavier makes it incredibly challenging. Very much like performing the Liszt Sonata, in my opinion.
I generally think that "Les Adieux" is a (more or less) hidden champion in terms of technical difficulty among the Beethoven Sonata. See also the third movement...
I'd agree with you here. The third movement is so fun and has some of my personal favorite bars in Beethoven.
What is the piece playing in the background of your introduction? It’s absolutely killing me 😂
It's Beethoven's Sonata No 30, Op. 109!
Coda from final movement of the pastorale sonata.
Badura-Skoda was so great -it says Pollini and I thought it was paulBadura-S..Im on youtube all day everyday and Ive never seen film of Arrau play op.73 .Pollini came to Florida played 5 Sonatas in one recital and Lebeswohl was the only one I remember . Barenboim may be the most sensible in these Sonatas. Russel Sherman fascinates in some of these Sonatas .Wish I had had the talent to study with him!Why would Schiff take the heroic effort out of the music . Beethoven is about LifeEffort. Schnabel said the end of 2mov. op 90 wasthe most difficult for him . If you hear his op.73,57,111,106 op.2no.2 you realize he forgot himself ! Bruce Hungerford was he a great Betthoven player? Annie has become better known now so many decades after her death .
I jusr finished op 81a, just seeing the thumbnail blur i knew whta passage was that ahag. Though I truly don't think that they're the 2 most difficult bars of beethoven s music.
Even op 109 first few bars are so much more complex in my opinion , musically of course.
But I agree, technically speaking it's probably one of the trickiest one. .
I can play this sonata. For me getting through those two bars is the hardest part, no question whatsoever. For me getting through it means playing with 'bounciness' in the wrists. But that's no easy ask.
Arrau was really great here.
Right? Just astounding!
Couldn't agree more, it's very awkward, with a stretchy beginning, for the second group I used fingers 5 2 instead of 4 2, and practiced anticipating every next group a lot, still I hit it right 1 of every 5 times... Life is too short to play those measures right 😂😂😂
🤣 With so much of the "big" rep, it seems there's always just a few bars that take just about the same amount of time to perfect as the ENTIRE rest of the piece lol.
this was actually the FIRST Beethoven sonata I learned :| It was ROUGH. I'll take Chopin's 1st any day (an overlooked gem imo)
although tbf, if I recall, I don't think it ever reached performance speed. For my college admissions I did a mozart sonata, so that wasn't it... hm. Never learned the rest of that sonata, either, it was just the first movement, and I had to quit lessons before I memorized it because I developed a chronic illness x_x
Wow, this was the first one?! That's an undertaking!! My first was Op. 10 No. 1 followed by Pathetique and then Moonlight.
Sorry to hear about needing to stop lessons! Are you still able to play for fun?
Well, at 5:27, I think you pulled off a very persuasive, even impressive, execution of this run. Was this all a "Billy the Kid at the Keyboard"-type ambush to dazzle the deputies? 😏
My confounding curiosity is this: having been disappointed with recordings of Stravinsky, Bernstein, Rachmaninoff and others playing or conducting their own works, I often wonder if titans like Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Chopin, Liszt and Brahms--all considered formidable pianists--were as incandescently capable as today's virtuosi. It's an effort to imagine the Emperor dispatched by Beethoven better than the likes of Argerich, or Rachmaninoff improving on Bronfman's Rach 3. Yuja Wang may easily match or mash Ravel, and Lang Lang probably out-propels Prokofiev. Anyone disagree?
For most-difficult piano stretches, I'm more easily stumped by cross-rhythmic tricks than finger licks. Barber's Excursion #3, Allegretto, is my Barbarian at the Gate, my Faustian Bargain, my Godzilla From Odd/Even Hella. The 7 over 8, played with precision and lyricism, both, is rare. I imagine Barber himself pulled it off, given his personal discipline and compositional integrity. Adam Mayon wins my admiration here--
th-cam.com/video/m6Mc5QiDTOc/w-d-xo.html
You need to keep in mind that Beethoven used different instruments that we do today. Modern pianos a designed in a way to have high volume output, which also means heavier keys and longer key action (so you need to press down the key further to trigger a note). This passage in question is probably much easier on an early fortepiano or harpsichord. I mean, look how effortless this look with Brautigam: th-cam.com/video/1bMG6TP2D2E/w-d-xo.html
@@TheVoitel Thank you for that link. Those forte instruments were pretty dreadful, to my modernity-addicted ear. His Bösendorfer was like absinthe to apple cider!
@@prototropo 'tis not a Bösendorfer.
Haha, thank you prototropo! The way I accel into the passage here isn't how I'd wish to perform it, but I'm decently happy with it after only an hour of practice before filming... previous time I pulled this piece out to practice was more than 10 years ago!
Speaking of composers playing their own works, have you heard Rachmaninoff playing all of his concerti? There's one recording I'm aware of that's real (not a piano roll) of all 4 concerti played by the composer himself. The quality makes it a little more difficult to decipher the subtlest musical details, but we gain a great glimpse into the pianism of Rachmaninoff from listening.
Such a fantastic performance on a great period instrument! Thanks for sharing! And yes, it would likely require less "virtuosic" technique on that lighter action with narrower keys than on the modern piano. I've never had a chance to play any early fortepianos, so I can't comment with first hand experience! But it appears just a bit of a shake of the wrist accomplishes most of the passage, which would never produce a forte dynamic on the modern piano, let alone a cresc through the passage.
Not easy for sure, but I think the points in "Hammerklavier"'s first Movement when you have to play octaves while simultaneously trilling, all with the same hand, are almost akin to s*dism...
Play every pair of “two successive chords in a row” as fast as possible while relaxing fully after the second chord. Then do every “three successive chords in a row” the same way. Then four, five, etc
Absolutely! Great practice technique not just for this passage, but for lots of rep... first time I learned to apply this was working through Rachmaninoff's Prelude in g minor.
@@PianistAcademy1 one of my favorite pieces!
I used to doubt the assertion that Beethoven wrote some passages to deliberately torment pianists. This passage dispelled all my doubts. What Schiff did serves him right.
🤣
I was going to guess one of the measures to be the one 4 bars before the end of the first movement!!! I still can't get those whole notes to crescendo as Beethoven indicates. 😂
🤣
Suddenly very proud of my being able to bang these out at tempo 😅
Nice!
@@PianistAcademy1 I mean my articulation leaves something to be desired but having taught myself that movement it’s the best I can do
Op.81a is a very difficult piece. I played it only two time on stage. I think the third movement is the “easiest”.
Of the three movements, the third isn't technically the easiest, but I think overall it just might be. My LH always causes a bit of an issue when it needs to play the rapid passagework after RH does, but other than those bars, the movement has always come together nicely for me and is a huge joy to play!
Those measures are a total bitch (slurs, staccato, speed, dynamics, shifting angle of hand, etc.) complicated by the fact that the expo and the recap start out similarly, but end up in completely different keys. As a memory issue (which version am I playing now??) it just adds another factor of difficulty.
For me these are hard but i think Appasionata opening downward arpeggi flurry is nerve-wracking
When I've performed that Sonata, it's the fact that those bars come out of nowhere that seem to make them challenging. A good amount of forearm rotation through the passage and I was always pretty comfortable in practice... but play the opening measures as sinister as possible with the adrenaline brought on by an audience, and all of a sudden that flurry downward becomes much more challenging!
It's relative to the performer. I have a huge difficulty with this, but not insurmountable. However I think I have approximately 0.00% chance of being able to play the finale of the 32nd sonata.
Others have mentioned the same about Op 111!
The tempo is indeed different as Beethoven had written his own system of tempo, which only now has been discovered. I have a different attitude on music. Music is above language and gives us utter happiness, ecstasy. Can you explain ecstasy in any language? Now, nobody can do it. So what does it matter if here and there a note has not been played ? Nothing.
maybe not in technique but i think theres quite plenty of measures that are emotionally hard to get right
I'd go so far as to say ALL music is emotionally hard to get right. I had a student who wanted to play The Tempest Sonata because it was "hard" and I spent a full year trying to convince him that playing musically, emotionally, and with artistry is what's truly difficult.
I might if I knew what was meant by a measure.
Lol people shitting on Schiff (arguably the most musically gifted and imaginative pianist of our time, not to mention with one of the biggest repetoires of anyone) over a few left out voices that ultimately arent that important. As Beethoven himself famously said "To play wrong notes is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable". Imo Schiff's recordings of the beethoven sonatas are incredible and his lecture recital series on the 32 sonatas are invaluable
Wonderful quote from Beethoven to remind us, thank you! I’ve actually been planning another video on Schiff’s interpretation of the first movement of Moonlight and use clips from one of his lectures… do you know the bit I’m talking about?
@@PianistAcademy1 I do indeed, very interesting interpretation! I personally love his recording of the third movement, he plays it like nobody else. I also recommend his masterclass he gave in RIAM London, one of the sonatas was the moonlight
Totally OK with you but to me the third of the waldstein is more intensive ...
Not to sound like a hater or anything but I feel like anyone who has learned Op 109 would never list it anywhere near the top 4 hardest Beethoven sonatas. The first and second movements are piss easy compared to other late sonata movements and only the last two variations are "hard". Of course this is my opinion, but I think the reputation of Op 109 and the late sonatas in general cause pianists to be scared of the work when they shouldn't be. Also who have you heard say the first movement of Op. 81A is easy?
Difficulty level can be a very subjective topic that sometimes includes how difficult interpretation is and sometimes is only thought of as how advanced is the technique required. I'd agree that most of 109 isn't as technically demanding as the other late sonatas, but sometimes fewer notes means much more difficult to place them all in a 'perfectly' musical way. I sure find that with Mozart... just about all of Mozart is "easy" once you've played Chopin and Liszt, but putting every note in just the right spot, making every phrase a perfect lyrical statement... boy oh boy is it hard in Mozart.
When I was putting this video together I did some searching online for what people had to say about the various sonatas. There were many people/sites that placed 81a as in the easier half of Beethoven's sonatas, nearer Pathetique or Moonlight... obviously, because of this video, I don't agree with that at all!
1:23 Lesaduce? come on man :)
It’s the best French I’ve got!! Haha. The “ce” you reference here is my beginning of “Sonata”, I definitely know it’s not Les adieuce haha
I can’t believe there were negative comments. Remember the 98% positive. You got this! :)
Thanks!
I hate these bars because they make it impossible for me to play that thing without slowing down.
It's apparently even harder to pronounce the title of the piece correctly ;-)
I thought I was pronouncing it the way pronunciation videos teach it I swear!! If it’s still not right, my apologies!