Quick comment, I KNOW that lists and difficulties are subjective so some choices might be a surprise, still the point of this video was also to give people a list of pieces to chose from in any category so pls keep that in mind and enjoy the vid!
I agree. Technically the Hammerklavier is the most difficult, but interpretation on Opus 111 is mind altering and perhaps the most challenging in all of the piano repeteur.
@@Pamela-dv7gb Part of it is the length. Almost an hour. Sheer endurance and sustained concentration come into play. Also, it's non-stop 1/16 notes. Cramping can happen. Lots of challenges.
The first time I ever heard opus 111 I felt like I was being taken on a musical journey to a place I had never been before. I had a score to follow along with and was astonished at what I was seeing. An experience never to be forgotten.
The first Beethoven sonata I ever learned was the Pathétique, when I was 19 years old. I needed six months to play it all at full speed. I memorized it segment by segment. The second Beethoven sonata I learned was the Appassionata. I started by slowly sightreading until I could read through the whole sonata, and then gradually increasing the frequency until I could play it at full speed without difficulty. The difference between the two methods of learning produced two different results: even after decades without practice, I was able to rememorize the Pathétique quickly, and play it without the score, while I could never play the Appassionata without the score before my eyes.
Interesting observation. I have come to believe one should memorize a piece first, at a slow tempo. Most of the music moves into the faster tempo by the time one is memorized, with a few exceptions that can be practiced separately. The process starts more slowly but one "owns" the piece in this way.
I'm surprised Op 2/2 is in the painless category. It is considered an off-range piece by many teachers. It doesn't rank against the top tier but is a decent Demanding tier.
yeah, it's definitely misplaced in painless. I can see how one could consider it easy on the grounds that it is musically straightforward, but executing it well is such a big step-up compared to the other painless sonatas
A few observations from someone who has performed the entire Hammerklavier on several occasions and studied the op. 111: 1. I don't think you can truly understand the mental difficulty of performing it once you've actually performed it. If you've had a bad day, are a little tired, or have under-prepared even by just a little, disaster can and will start to happen, especially in the fugue. 2. It's not too challenging to give a "decent, listenable" interpretation of it, but an excellent one? That's a different story. The first movement needs to be voiced well and kept under control, the third movement needs razor-sharp focus throughout, else it will start to sound boring about halfway through and the audience will fall asleep. And you will have a memory lapse. If the fugue is just "rattled" through with perfect technique, it will sound pointless. And there are parts of it that are almost unplayable (given, of course, that you play it at a good tempo.) Of course, I understand that different people find different things difficult or not so difficult, but in my experience, the more I practiced Hammerklavier and the more I got close to giving my first performance, the more difficult it became. Op. 111 made my scratch my head (I was close to giving a performance of it, so I had it almost memorized and pretty fluent after a couple months), but Hammerklavier, after half a year of working on it, made me cry and feel absolutely stupid. I also had one performance of it which was an absolute, unmitigated disaster. Several memory lapses and full stops - something that has never happened before. I thought I was ready, but apparently, I was underprepared, hadn't slept and so, several parts of the 1st movement and the fugue left my memory as I was sweating like a pig. This piece requires immense preparation, fingers like lightning, unbreakable concentration and a deep musical understanding to make any sense of the 3rd or 4th movement. Perhaps sometime in the near future, I will return to it again and try to do it more justice. It's just a massive technical and emotional puzzle that I haven't quite solved yet.
Interesting! Your level of playing is beyond mine. My paternal Grandmother was a fine pianist. She’d play Op. 27 No. 1. I still have a special liking for this sonata.
I was attended a concert given by Richter at the Royal Festival Hall in the 70's. He played the Hammerklavier in the second half. His encore was the entire final movement all over again. I suspect he was recording his performance and wasn't happy with the fugue the first time around.
Wow. I appreciate your honesty. If you're going to crash on a Beethoven sonata, what better than to do so with No. 29! I once observed a DMA student fall apart on the Tempest. I think I have to agree with you. I played the Op.111 for a doctoral seminar in classicism, and would never have thought to do select The Hammerklavier. (It sounds so imposing in German, unless you speak German: the "Piano" piano sonata.)
I don't see how Op. 101 isn't in the elite, the fugue gets almost as difficult as in Op. 106 I understand your points for placing Op. 111 above Op. 106, but I don't really agree as the third movement of Op. 106 also has immense musical difficulties, almost on par with the Op. 111 arietta, but technically the whole sonata is on a different planet Nevertheless, a nice video, and I'm looking forward to the future videos!
Lovely summary, and I happen to agree totally with Op. 111 harder than Hammerklavier because of the second movement, one of the greatest excursions to heaven and back in the history of Western music.
I have been working on the Op. 111 Arietta for months. It's far beyond my grasp, but every now and then, I play something and it actually sounds like the music is echoing back at me and it just sends shivers up my spine. Like I'm getting a glimpse of it. I love it.
Also, if you are a beginner/intermediate pianist, Beethoven also wrote some Sonatinas that are not too difficult, most similar level to the Painless sonatas.
The slow movement of the Hammerklavier is just as much of a challenge as the slow movement of op. 111, and it one of four movements, whereas op. 111 is a two-movement sonata. The Hammerklavier is a symphony for piano solo and ends with a fugue that just barely playable by ten fingers. It has no rival.
It is true that op. 106 and op. 111 are in the most difficult category, but there is another that belongs in this group: op. 101. In fact, many pianists, including myself, consider op. 101 the most challenging of them all. It’s just as technically demanding and “risky” as op. 106, but it requires even more sensitivity, and its character is more elusive.
Having played both op.101 and op.111 I would consider op.101 to be more technically demanding while op.111 being more musically demanding and requiring greater memory.
@@morganmartinez8420 yeah, that's probably right. Getting the sky-full-of-stars sound in the Arietta, and bringing out the incredible surge of energy in Variation 3 (the "ragtime" variation) sounds like a real challenge.
To those who thinks op111 is more difficult than op106, I would love to see your video recordings of you playing the entire Hammerklavier on stage or record this piece in 1 take. Ppl were like:”oh 111 is more difficult in interpretation” Well ,what about the third movement of 106, and what about the following fugal movement that is considered as the hardest passage Beethoven wrote , both in mental and technique way. The challenge for 111 is the interpretation, the challenge for 106 is try not collapse on the stage XD
He addressed that in his video, watch it again if need be Also, the word “interpretation” far surpasses “technically difficult” by any metric. I might be able to play op. 111 the whole way through and technically speaking it wouldn’t be as demanding as op. 106, however that particular sonata reaches a point of transcendence where the player has to literally become spiritually active and almost quasi-religious to even attempt the 2nd movement. Such is not the case with the op. 106.
@@vincentrubio2859 Yes, my point is, if you haven't play op106 in a performance situation you won't understnad how challange op106 is in the "spiritual" way. People just asserted that Op106 is difficult in technique and op111 is difficult in spritual way, they never thought about that Op106 can be mentally challanging as well because they most likely haven't perform this piece under pressure. You can't just say Mozart Piano Sonata is more difficult than Rach 3rd because you think it is more difficult in spritual way, difficulty is based on performer's feeling , not audience or classical music lover's.
He said those are very close to another. I think Hammerklavier is harder but the step between 106 and 111 is a lot smaller than the step between 111 and Appassionata
Though not a player, I was happy to see that you picked Opus 101 in 4th place. It's my personal favourite, along with Opus 7, which IS underrated. Critics tore Beethoven apart over it, but was transformative for him.
Waldstein was much more difficult for me than the Appassionata. the third movement in the Waldstein is so much harder to make sound clean than the other. It requires a much more sophisticated pedal and clear voicing
For me the third movement pedalling of the Waldstein became really straightforward, once I changed the balance of the sound of right and left hand, I could use Beethoven's very long pedals without problems ! And then the interjected trio parts in the 3rd are also playable with very little pedal. Basically either very long or short pedals. Could do a video on Waldstein some time!
@@PianoTechSupport The trills are what really got me, especially after the first two movements. Can't imagine how much worse it'd be with that longer second movement. The one he went with is more like a rest for the final movement. I believe Andras Schiff said the Waldstein was his favorite.
it’s possible that schiff likes the waldstein most overall, i know he said it may be the most brilliant (i’m guessing he means bright and shining), but i also know op. 109’s finale is his favourite movement (at least based on his lecture recitals)
Acknowledging op. 7 shows that you have a good understanding of the Sonatas. A less experienced musician wouldn’t comprehend it’s difficulty. Last movement of Op 31 no 3 is another silent killer…
Thank you very much. Yes ; i played both op 7 and 31 3 and I always think where should I put 31 3? BTW! You know what I feel like is IDENTICAL to 31/3? Another sonata i played, Prokofiev sonata 2! Immense similarty.
Op 31 no 3 has a lot going for it. Notes are pretty simple, you can get through it pretty fast, but raising the speed in the second and fourth movement and my god interpreting the first one maturely is a tall order. The third movement also needs you to be expressive and so on but its smaller and more manageable..
I have been working on the Appassionata Sonata and I honestly thought it would be a bit easier, but then again, I haven’t really played that much of the Beethoven Sonatas. First sonata I learned was Moonlight, then Pathetique. Then I went through a period where nothing would sound right when I did my Beethoven practice for new pieces, so for a few years, I kind of stopped learning the Beethoven Sonatas, but kept learning other hard pieces by Schubert, Chopin, and other composers. Now I’m at the point where my new Beethoven repertoire sounds okay at least, slow, but not like very wrong sounding. Hardest part of the Appassionata Sonata for me right now and what’s slowing me down is the third movement left hand, specifically the alternating intervals passage in C minor with like the thirds and octaves, that’s quite awkward on my small hands. The ending Presto is easier on my left hand than the alternating intervals. Waldstein just seems like it would be harder because of how fast the repeated chords are, I tend to have a harder time with fast repeated notes than with fast alternations
I thought Hammerklavier was going to be the hardest, and the 32nd at fourth place, but they were all assumptions, since I've never played them, just listened. Very interesting and informative video!
Op. 111 definitely deserves this spot... Quite a challenging sonata to interpret, with the usual beethovinian grandeur but also a spiritual understanding underlying the entire piece Nice and well thought-out tier list I would say... +1 Sub
I’m preparing op. 31 no 3 (the hunt) right now for a recital and, for me, it’s one of those pieces where all the places that seem easy turn out to be really difficult, and all the spots that look hard at first are actually fairly easy lol
I just performed op. 31/3 a couple months ago. I thought parts of the first movement (that crazy 32nd note run and the upward running arpeggios) were awfully tough, and getting the light, whimsical sound in teh Scherzo wasn't easy either. The finale is very hard, but pretty pianistic--and *fun as hell* to play.
Placing Opus 7 so high and giving it more exposure made me happy as its my favourite sonata next to Opus 101. It is a huge piece and only elite players can handle its technical but also emotional challenges!
APPASSIONATA IS IN THE TOP 3!!! I love that piece! It's my favorite piece of ALL TIME!!! (I already mostly learned the 2nd and 3rd movements already, even though you categorized this sonata in Elite.)
I really like how you've explained the Hammerklavier versus Opus 111. Even Brendl stopped performing the Hammerklavier as he got older because of its sheer physical demands. But 111 is of transcendental musical conception, so just mastering the notes is hardly sufficient. Bravo. I do think these final two should be in a category by themselves as well. Earlier in the list, I found some of the "easiest" to be difficult, in the manner of Mozart, in that they require a very light touch that is difficult (for me at least) to master. Also, Beethoven mixed and matched the difficulty in his early and middle periods -- the Moonlight finale, for example, is at least a magnitude more difficult than the first two movements. The Pathetique's first movement is much more difficult than the other two, although the second movement requires a high level of musicality that can be lost if all one does is read the notes. Thanks for this and your other videos. They show a lot of serious thought and are very enjoyable.
@@PianoTechSupport btw I find Lebeswohl to be among the most difficult, more difficult for me than the Appassionata. Can't get the legato it needs in the first movement, and just can't play the finale :-)
I’ve taught 111 a couple of times in my career, but never had the pleasure of teaching hammerklavier…..people seem more attracted to 111, though always find it a huge challenge.
I have played op.111 for 4 years now. I'm only starting to get the first movement right. But in the process i've forgotten how to play the 2nd movement.
I completely support the idea of Op. 111 being the most difficult due to the interpretational challenges that one faces amidst the technical demands of both movements. I just recently played 109, 110, and 111 on a single program and even though my love of 109 is deep, I couldn't stop my obsession with 111. I played 101 back in grad school and I have not played 106 yet, but after so many hearings of 106 I am aware enough to know that a good technical rendition of it will very likely produce a good musical rendition. I know many will disagree with me on this, but 106 isn't the most emotionally touching Sonata Beethoven wrote. Unfortunately, the focus is often on the technical demands and the grandiosity of the work as a whole, which often dictates the "difficulty" lists. This is not so with 111. There is something much more profound in 111 that if missed, will render the entire 27-28 minutes as quite empty, IMO, even if it is technically well done. For example, (and I'm not afraid to admit) that the performances of 111 by Pogorelich, Katie Mahan, and Daniil Trifonov left me in absolute tears by the end, but the performances of Brendel, Pletnev, and Pollini were like, "meh." I guess the point I'm trying to make here (which the video commentary proposes already), is that there can be good and not-so-good performances of 106, but it is going to be technical in nature and probably won't have such a wide range of effect on the listener emotionally. However, with 111, the technical ability necessary to transmit the profound emotional and spiritual effect on an interpretational level is what makes this not only one of the greatest works in the repertoire, but also a substantial test on the performer as one of the most difficult tasks we try to achieve on stage. Order and peace from the chaos and mayhem. The victory of bliss and acceptance over pain and the negativities in life. To me, it is just simply astounding that Beethoven would end 111 the way he did and then walk away from the genre. I don't know how to put into words what that means... Sorry, I kind of lost myself there for a moment, but I must also say that I am super happy to see Op. 7 in the "Elite" category. That Sonata is almost impossible. However, I do disagree with the placement of 101. I think the 2nd and 4th movements place that Sonata ahead of 110 for sure, at least technically, and deserves to be in the Elite category for that reason. Honestly, the only movement in 110 that makes it difficult is the treacherous dance. The B-section is so difficult to finger properly that it is almost a miracle to play it accurately. 101 has many more places where things can go wrongly. Having learned and performed all in the elite category (other than 106), I would revise the order to be Opp. 7, 110, 109, 53, 57, 101, 106 and finally 111.
The second movement to me sounds like a retrospective of his own life with humble beginings peroiods of joy, exhileration and sorrow and finally a quiet uncerimonius departure; a calm acceptance of his end.
For me, the third movement of the Waldstein was also one of those pieces that just never freaking ends! It's hard enough to do those trills and scale in the left hand properly 🥵
As I remember it and it’s been a long time since I last played it the coda of the third movement is very very hard to play well. It has octaves that need to glide as fast as single note scales. Given that it also needs to be played at a presto tempo very few pianists can manage it properly. When it was written the last 3 pages were considered unplayable. It’s a great Sonata though.
@@michaelsims1160 Artur Schnabel provided an excellent solution in his edition: one can play the glissandoes with both hands, without missing a single note. I have found this an excellent solution. I heard Rudolf Serkin playing this: he licked his fingers, and then played the octave glissandos. He said that he always checked that he could do this on the piano provided, and that if he couldn't do it, he would change the programme!
I am currently learning op. 110 (piano sonata 31). This piece is crazy. It is probably his most subtle, introverted piano sonata, and there are so many things to consider. The recitative drives me crazy because everything has to be so well thought out, but at the same time it can’t sound too rehearsed to where it feels shallow. It’s not something you can simply memorize; you have to play it consciously every time you play it.
Nice video to lean more. I love all. My father used to listen Appassionata every day like a habit. He would also listen Hammerklavier a lot. I have not decided yet which one is my favorite one.I am still very young in music compare to him...jJajaja😅😘...Thank you!!.He was fan of C. Arrau and Glenn Gould playing them.
Glad to see op.10 no.3 is up there on your list. I remember looking at some rankings when I was practicing it and it was way lower than I personally felt it should be.
Can I ask about your decision on the Op. 27 No. 1 (21st), and the Op. 90? (13th)? I'm sure I'd have other questions, but these are the only 2 sonatas I have any real experience with. I consider the Op. 27 No. 1 to be very technically AND musically demanding, whereas the Op. 90 aside from about 3 difficult passages lacks any serious technical difficulty, but is incredibly musically in depth. So I guess in my eyes they round out to about equal difficulty, so why are they as far apart as they are on the list? (With all due respect to your opinion of course. I can tell that this list is very well thought about).
I know the list is subjective, but you're clearly underestimating op 101... I've played many Sonatas, including Waldstein and Appassionata and I can assure you that 101 is waaaay harder, both technically and musically. Arguably it's even harder than 109, 110 and 111.
I have been working on The Tempest and Appasionata in recent months, and have been wondering what to learn next. I think I would like something less demanding than Appasionata next time, and you have given me some great ideas! By the way, I find it interesting that one of my cats gets in my lap every time I get to the climactic arpeggios toward the end of the first movement, making it even more difficult to play well!
In my opinion Hammer klavier n29 is the most difficoult Beethoven's sonata, but I agree with you that n32 op 111 is a more profound work, it's one of my favourite piano compositions of all times. In my experience, very dufficoult to memorize the second movement without fake notes.
I liked your point regarding the difficulty being in "the understanding of op.111". In the late sonatas as well as in the late quartets (and arguably more so in those) it's as if Beethoven has gone over to the other side - as in that dimension that we otherwise associate with death. For me, no one gets as close to conveying that as Maurizio Pollini (despite his coolness toward - and even disdain for - personal interpretation), while this "other side" aspect is the reason, I think, for why the late sonatas are the greatest - and therein the most difficult - to properly do justice too etc.
Only 2 movements in op.111. If you decide difficulty based on length of middle movement (like in Waldstein), then op.111 is so easy we are born able to play it!
Great video, as someone who's played all the sonatas I have to respectfully disagree with your last two choices, both are difficult but the philosophical and spiritual nature is very personal, and in my impossibly unbiased opinion the hammerklavier is technically more difficult and conceptually more difficult to put together. When I used to teach 20 years ago I found that students also had the same challenges and I would send them to another musician friend to get second opinions of these great works, 95% of the time most pianists had the same opinion, thank you for your work and putting us together and hopefully my very biased opinion adds to your success.
In the middle of preparing all 32 for a festival in Mexico next month. Here for all its worth is my very different rankings from easiest to most difficult. Surely the second movement of op.111 is such incredibly great music that it virtually plays itself and doesn't need 'interpretation' (as long as you can master those dreadful trills!). Everything is difficult to do well though and I admire someone who can play the 49s with Mozartian grace and elegance. 1 - Op.49/2 2 - Op.49/1, 3 - Op.14/2, 4 - Op.14/1, 5 - Op.79, 6 - Op.2/1, 7 - Op.10/1, 8 - Op.79, 9 - Op.26, 10 - Op.13, 11 - Op.27/2, 12 - Op.10/3, 13 - Op.2/2, 14 - Op.22 15 - Op.31/2, 16 - Op.28, 17 - Op.27/1, 18 - Op.54, 19 - Op.10/2, 20 - Op.78, 21 - Op.31/3, 22 - Op.2/3, 23 - Op.110 24 - Op.31/1, 25 - Op.7, 26 - Op.81, 27 - Op.109, 28 - Op.53, 29 - Op.57, 30 - Op.111, 31 - Op.101, 32 - Op.106
Very interesting, and I think I pretty much agree with your categorization. I think it would be even more interesting to break it further into movements, since some of the sonatas have both easy and very hard movements.
As someone who can play all 32 of them, I think it's a pretty good list. However, I think there are few changes I can make. Op. 26 should swap with Op. 27 No. 1, as it doesn’t contain any major technical or musical challenges. Only the 4th movement can be a bit annoying to learn. Op. 27 No. 1 on the other hand has a very technically challenging finale and the on-off beat segment in the second movement is no easy feat too as you have to play slurs with one hand and staccato with the other. It is not easy to pull off at all especially at high speed. Also there is no way in heck Op. 2 No. 2 is in the painless category. It is quite the opposite. The first movement alone already makes that piece demanding at the very least, with its incredibly fast triplets, broken octaves and don't even get me started on the dev. Not to mention the incredibly high clarity requirement in this movement. The 4th movement is also no walk in the park as there are several difficult spots like fast scales, fast arpeggios, jumps over a tenth in the LH and an awkward triplet run in the last page. I'd say this piece, along with Op. 2 No. 3 and Op. 7 are the 3 hardest sonatas in his early period. In addition, I would also swap the place for Op. 31 No. 3 and Op. 31 No. 1 as the latter is a lot more demanding technically, especially in the finale as it's full of difficult counterpoints while playing at a decently fast tempo. I would also swap Op. 101 with Op. 110. Yes, Op. 110 is harder to interpret, but Op. 101 is way more difficult technically as both the second and fourth movements require insane counterpoint/fugal techniques. And lastly, Op. 106 will always be at the top. It's no less harder to interpret than Op. 111 and combine that with the sheer technical challenges it's not hard to see why it's one of the most difficult pieces written for the piano ever.
I agree with you most of the time (I haven't played all 32 sonatas, only 12 of them, and of the difficult ones just op. 53 and 57). But at least for me the op. 27 n1 is harder than the Tempest, I would switch them.
Bold take to rank anything over the Hammerklavier/op. 106. My disagreements: Ranked too difficult: op. 31/3 (easiest of the op. 31 sonatas in my opinion although they're all roughly comparable in difficulty; I think 31/1 is the hardest of the three) op. 110, easiest of the last five, and much easier than the Waldstein. Also I think it's the easiest of the last five to interpret. op. 26, one of the easier ones except for the finale and Variation 5 of the opener. Ranked too easy: op. 2/2 in the easiest?? Much harder than op. 2/1. op. 2/3 is nearly as hard as op. 7 and a lot harder than op 10/3. op. 101 should be right behind the Hammerklavier and op. 111, and maybe even above the op. 111. My top 5 would be op. 106, op. 101, op. 111, op. 53, op. 109 (Appassionata and op. 7 would be the next two). I've performed individual movements from many but I've performed all of op. 2/1, op. 14/1, op. 10/3, op. 31/3 and op. 110.
A young Daniel Baremboim was once given a 0/10 for his seemingly good performance of Beethoven's Op.111 at an International Competition by Arturo Benedetti-Michelangeli, one of the members of the Jury, because he felt the choice of the Piece was wrong: in the Italian Maestro's own words, a young, debutante concert pianist doesn't know what to do with that Music. And I feel like he maybe was too harsh, but got some points.
I'm with you that the 7th is under rated. Personally one of my favourites. It a secret pleasure other people ignore. Now you've let the cat out of the bag!
The great thing about music is it's not a Universal truth that everybody needs to agree upon. Everybody has their own thoughts on it. For me the argument of the sheer spiritual level of understanding needed for Opus 111 could equally apply to the Adagio 3rd movement of The Hammerklavier, for me one of the greatest and most profound movements in all music, a monumental and epic journey. The sheer level of concentration and focus required to play this movement is immense In Beethoven's own words he describes this movement as this, "Through penance and purification to the pure fountain." And the only possible release from all this suffering, longing and contemplation of nearly 20 minutes is the final triumph of the immense fugue of the final movement. Those two final chords of the movement mark the end of the epic struggle from darkness to light. The Hammerklavier is both the most difficult interpretively and technically so for this reason i place The Hammerklavier as the most difficult.
Oh, so you are saying that my absolute favorite sonata is harder than Hammerklavier? I think I understand your point. It is extremely hard to interpret Op.111 2nd movement, with all its borderline spiritual/transcendental nuances, and the Op.106 sounds impressive even if you are just playing the notes without much thought about the musical aspects. I knew that the Op.111 was among the most challenging sonatas, but I still had the illusion that I would work on it someday. Now I am struggling with the 1st movement of Pathetique, so I guess there is no chance I would ever be able to do a decent performance of that piece. But there is no harm in trying, right? Maybe in the next decade 😅
Very interesting and informative, especially for a dumb klutz like myself. I look forward to listening to the Beethoven sonatas in the order presented.
La dificultad de las sonatas de el maestro, es que no es solamente a nivel interpretativo, sino que también hubo consecuencias del momento (el instrumento que se interpretó) y que debe sonar a Beethoven, sin que suene a Mozart, Haydn o Salieri.
No worries! I mean that's why my list is really a subjective opinion 😁 it shouldn't be regarded as "right or wrong" because there's no sense in ranking things like this anyways, it's just for entertainment. for me personally Op 90 requires one to be more subtle, more refined pianist. I feel like it would be easier to make an OK sounding pathetique compared to a Op. 90. But I also appreciate your view!
I would have preferred to hear the rationale behind the classification, or even segments of the music that caused them to be in certain rankings rather than just the opening handful of bars.
I might be doing that some time when I have two hours of time for a video! Btw, I played the opening bars to remind listeners of what the sonata sounds like, my rating did not depend on the first couple of bars if you're thinking that.
Compared to a list I drew up earlier, many of the positions are similar. The biggest discrepancy is Op.78 (No.24) which you rank sixteenth whereas my list has it ranked twenty-sixth.
@@PianoTechSupport I'm an amateur pianist haha, I just figured out that the quality of the performance matters at an early stage (mainly after an embarrassing period of playing difficult pieces in horrible quality lol)
Why do you feel worthless? The first Beethoven Sonata I was given in college was Op. 14 No. 1 (I had played Pathetique quite poorly for my audition). I grew to love it. It's a truly beautiful work. Now that my technique has been fixed, partly because of that sonata (the 3rd movement teaches a lot about scale playing), I can play whichever of the sonatas I feel like practicing. Everybody has to start somewhere. Sounds like your teacher knows what they are doing, which you should be happy about.
@@jasongallagher631 well people tell me that I should be glad that I’m skilled enough to play Beethoven sonatas. I guess they’re right, but I have such high standards….
There are some difficult left hand passages in op.57 but I wouldn't rank it that high. I think Waldstein and Hunt have both more techniques and measures
Hmm I get your point, but I don't remember many tricky bars in 31/3 and I played it quite often in public. Most I can think of is 2nd movement (which doesn't have to be at lightning speed, that already makes it manageable) and then last movement has a simple structure but somewhere towards the end there's a passage or two that I think needed a lot of practice till it worked.
@@PianoTechSupport I agree with you over 32/3 - I'm a decent but not professional pianist and I always found it a real pleasure to play: very satisfying and not really hard. I have quite small hands.
The op. 49 are sonatinas, not intended to be published as sonatas. Beet left them at home but one of his brothers had them published against Beethoven’s intention . For money probably. Op. 110 and op. 111 are indeed philosophical or just heavenly..
Zero chance 111 is harder than 106 sorry I know we like to fellate the late Beethoven’s but to say that 111 is harder because it’s unique/hard to understand is borderline missing the point. If you can do the 106 justice you can do the 111 easy, the 106 stands as not only a beast of technique but musicality as well, testing your entire arsenal as a pianist to make a sensible interpretation. 106 probably stood for a good few decades as the hardest piano piece is the standard repertoire. A 15 min slow movement, a chromatic fugue of blazing speeds that cover the entire range of the keyboard, an opening movement that is erratic and bombastic. The amount of musical difficulties in the 106 exceed the 111, which I have performed on a few occasions. In particular, most of the musical difficulties lie in the final few variations after the “boogie woogie”, where there’s an idea of reaching into the heavens, free of earthly burdens. Still, it is fairly consistent within this spiritual framework and the first movement is not that musically difficult. The Hammerklavier contains the struggle of everything, from the deepest depths of the soul, the triumph, the confusion and then to the transcendent as well in the fugue.
Thanks for your comment! As someone who played both 106 and 111, I take the freedom to come to my conclusion that Op. 111 is harder for me. Seriously, I like all these comments I'm getting, but you guys just need to make your own video and rank them (no disrespect meant!!). To say I'm "missing a point" would suggest that there is a "right" way to rank difficulty of sonatas, which is ultimately a subjective matter
I can agree with a lot of these. However, just wondering why is op 14 no1 , op 14 no 2, op 2 no1, op 10 no1 and op 10 no 2 in Painless. I would actually put these in the Same category with Pathetique and Moonlight in Advanced. You do realise that Op 49 no 2 is like Grade 6 Level. Op 79 is like Grade 8 level. And then all those I mentioned above are ARSM Level and found in the Associate Diplomas like Pathetique and Moonlight. So these ones I mentioned in particular are significantly harder than op 49 no1, no 2 and op 79 so I hope you understand why I think those should be in the second Category. I also think Les Adieux should be in the last category, In ABRSM this is both LRSM and FRSM.
😂😂😂 it's like those movies where you think "ah okay they're gonna get married at the end" and then an hour before the wedding someone gets their head chopped off
Great video! All in all I agree with the order, but if you compare a few "easy" ranked sonatas with harder ones, sometimes it's not quite right. For example, I think No. 9 is much harder than No. 27. There are some difficult passages in the first movement of No. 27, but I find them much easier than the last movement of No. 9. Also I think for example No. 30 is easier than some of the earlier ones like No 11. But still, the late sonatas are harder to play on an emotional basis than on a technical basis.
@@PianoTechSupport yes, totally! One can't even define wether "difficulty" is just technique, or making it sound well, or understanding the piece. There are many definitions
I am really not sure about that. We have movements in the "Painless" category, that are far more difficult than in the "Elite" category. For example the third movement of op. 10/2 is certainly a much greater challenge than the second movement of the Waldstein Sonata and so one. The solution is simple, we should rank every single movement.
No matter why Henle have a 'Beethoven - five famous Piano Sonatas' edition. It includes Op 13, 26, 27-2,28, 31-2 that's all in your advanced cataloge. I have this book, I was hoping to buy this for a lighter bundle (I really don't want to buy them in seperate edition but this 5 bundle are already almost 2/3 of thickness of full edition of book 1 or 2.
Great video! My own experience shuffles few of them around, but it’s subjective as you said. Would you consider a future video that digs deeper into specific passages for each of them?
Quick comment, I KNOW that lists and difficulties are subjective so some choices might be a surprise, still the point of this video was also to give people a list of pieces to chose from in any category so pls keep that in mind and enjoy the vid!
Interesting take. I appreciate how you move beyond technical difficulty to consider the musical dimensions when deciding on level of difficulty.
Thanks Alan! I can understand that not everyone's going to agree 😂
Yes, that was an Einsteinian move for sure!
(Painless)
1:33 op.49/2 (20)
1:41 op.49/1 (19)
2:04 op.79 (25, "Cuckoo")
2:08 op.14/2 (10)
2:12 op.14/1 (9)
2:23 op.2/1 (1)
2:26 op.2/2 (2)
2:28 op.10/1 (5)
2:31 op.10/2 (6)
(Advanced)
2:54 op.13 (8, "Pathétique")
3:06 op.27/2 (14, "Moonlight")
3:16 op.27/1 (13)
3:27 op.28 (15, "Pastoral")
3:33 op.54 (22)
3:44 op.22 (11)
(Demanding)
3:49 op.78 (24, "A Thérèse")
3:55 op.26 (12)
4:02 op.31/1 (16)
4:09 op.31/2 (17, "Tempest")
4:42 op.90 (27)
4:48 op.10/3 (7)
4:54 op.2/3 (3)
4:57 op.31/3 (18, "The Hunt")
5:04 op.81a (26, "Les Adieux/Das Lebewohl")
5:20 op.101 (28)
(Elite)
5:43 op.7 (4)
6:17 op.109 (30)
6:26 op.53 (21, "Waldstein")
7:22 op.110 (31)
7:57 op.57 (23, "Appassionata")
9:15 op.106 (29, "Hammerklavier")
9:23 op.111 (32)
op 2/1 fourth movement is not quite painless !
Anyone who has played both opus 101 and 110 would all agree that 101 is by far technically more challenging than 110
Thanks for doing this!
@@pianisthenics Agree!
@@STEPHANM0ELLER said the you, who performed all 32!!! I know your name, the maestro from Wien?
I agree. Technically the Hammerklavier is the most difficult, but interpretation on Opus 111 is mind altering and perhaps the most challenging in all of the piano repeteur.
“That will give them something to think about”. Comment by Beethoven after finishing writing the Hammerklavier.
What you say about 111 is also true for 106.
Opus 111 is the most profound and philosophical amongst all of the 32 sonatas.
I can’t understand why hammerklavier is supposed be insanely difficulte technically, waldstein harder no?
@@Pamela-dv7gb Part of it is the length. Almost an hour. Sheer endurance and sustained concentration come into play. Also, it's non-stop 1/16 notes. Cramping can happen. Lots of challenges.
The first time I ever heard opus 111 I felt like I was being taken on a musical journey to a place I had never been before. I had a score to follow along with and was astonished at what I was seeing. An experience never to be forgotten.
The first Beethoven sonata I ever learned was the Pathétique, when I was 19 years old. I needed six months to play it all at full speed. I memorized it segment by segment. The second Beethoven sonata I learned was the Appassionata. I started by slowly sightreading until I could read through the whole sonata, and then gradually increasing the frequency until I could play it at full speed without difficulty. The difference between the two methods of learning produced two different results: even after decades without practice, I was able to rememorize the Pathétique quickly, and play it without the score, while I could never play the Appassionata without the score before my eyes.
Interesting observation. I have come to believe one should memorize a piece first, at a slow tempo. Most of the music moves into the faster tempo by the time one is memorized, with a few exceptions that can be practiced separately. The process starts more slowly but one "owns" the piece in this way.
I memorized it without even looking
Try learning to play never gonna give you up with 2 hands only
Also old Town road in cut time makes beethoven look like an idiot
Haha my experience is exactly the same
It's nice to know that at least some people, people with greater abilities than my own, can find any Beethoven sonata "painless" !
I'm surprised Op 2/2 is in the painless category. It is considered an off-range piece by many teachers. It doesn't rank against the top tier but is a decent Demanding tier.
yeah, it's definitely misplaced in painless. I can see how one could consider it easy on the grounds that it is musically straightforward, but executing it well is such a big step-up compared to the other painless sonatas
I completely agree.
It’s not even in painless lol
Look at the vid
@@villanfn1935 It was glossed over quickly but it's there
For a recital I actually played the Waldstein with the Andante Favori as the second movement. It was definitely no joke.
A few observations from someone who has performed the entire Hammerklavier on several occasions and studied the op. 111:
1. I don't think you can truly understand the mental difficulty of performing it once you've actually performed it. If you've had a bad day, are a little tired, or have under-prepared even by just a little, disaster can and will start to happen, especially in the fugue.
2. It's not too challenging to give a "decent, listenable" interpretation of it, but an excellent one? That's a different story. The first movement needs to be voiced well and kept under control, the third movement needs razor-sharp focus throughout, else it will start to sound boring about halfway through and the audience will fall asleep. And you will have a memory lapse. If the fugue is just "rattled" through with perfect technique, it will sound pointless. And there are parts of it that are almost unplayable (given, of course, that you play it at a good tempo.)
Of course, I understand that different people find different things difficult or not so difficult, but in my experience, the more I practiced Hammerklavier and the more I got close to giving my first performance, the more difficult it became. Op. 111 made my scratch my head (I was close to giving a performance of it, so I had it almost memorized and pretty fluent after a couple months), but Hammerklavier, after half a year of working on it, made me cry and feel absolutely stupid.
I also had one performance of it which was an absolute, unmitigated disaster. Several memory lapses and full stops - something that has never happened before. I thought I was ready, but apparently, I was underprepared, hadn't slept and so, several parts of the 1st movement and the fugue left my memory as I was sweating like a pig.
This piece requires immense preparation, fingers like lightning, unbreakable concentration and a deep musical understanding to make any sense of the 3rd or 4th movement.
Perhaps sometime in the near future, I will return to it again and try to do it more justice. It's just a massive technical and emotional puzzle that I haven't quite solved yet.
Interesting! Your level of playing is beyond mine. My paternal Grandmother was a fine pianist. She’d play Op. 27 No. 1. I still have a special liking for this sonata.
Great discussion and analysis brother. Best wishes.
I was attended a concert given by Richter at the Royal Festival Hall in the 70's. He played the Hammerklavier in the second half. His encore was the entire final movement all over again. I suspect he was recording his performance and wasn't happy with the fugue the first time around.
Wow. I appreciate your honesty. If you're going to crash on a Beethoven sonata, what better than to do so with No. 29! I once observed a DMA student fall apart on the Tempest. I think I have to agree with you. I played the Op.111 for a doctoral seminar in classicism, and would never have thought to do select The Hammerklavier. (It sounds so imposing in German, unless you speak German: the "Piano" piano sonata.)
I don't see how Op. 101 isn't in the elite, the fugue gets almost as difficult as in Op. 106
I understand your points for placing Op. 111 above Op. 106, but I don't really agree as the third movement of Op. 106 also has immense musical difficulties, almost on par with the Op. 111 arietta, but technically the whole sonata is on a different planet
Nevertheless, a nice video, and I'm looking forward to the future videos!
Wow! Someone asked for just the hardest sonatas, but you gave them all of them ranked! Nice work.
haha yes, since i figured that would be the best thing to do :P
Lovely summary, and I happen to agree totally with Op. 111 harder than Hammerklavier because of the second movement, one of the greatest excursions to heaven and back in the history of Western music.
Thank you!! Yes, that is exactly my point.
I have been working on the Op. 111 Arietta for months. It's far beyond my grasp, but every now and then, I play something and it actually sounds like the music is echoing back at me and it just sends shivers up my spine. Like I'm getting a glimpse of it. I love it.
Also, if you are a beginner/intermediate pianist, Beethoven also wrote some Sonatinas that are not too difficult, most similar level to the Painless sonatas.
The slow movement of the Hammerklavier is just as much of a challenge as the slow movement of op. 111, and it one of four movements, whereas op. 111 is a two-movement sonata. The Hammerklavier is a symphony for piano solo and ends with a fugue that just barely playable by ten fingers. It has no rival.
a simphony is a sonata for orchestra
This is a fantastic take. Op. 111 is very underrated. I agree with almost all the selections you made in the top 5!
It is true that op. 106 and op. 111 are in the most difficult category, but there is another that belongs in this group: op. 101. In fact, many pianists, including myself, consider op. 101 the most challenging of them all. It’s just as technically demanding and “risky” as op. 106, but it requires even more sensitivity, and its character is more elusive.
yeah, I thought op. 101 was too low.
Having played both op.101 and op.111 I would consider op.101 to be more technically demanding while op.111 being more musically demanding and requiring greater memory.
@@morganmartinez8420 yeah, that's probably right. Getting the sky-full-of-stars sound in the Arietta, and bringing out the incredible surge of energy in Variation 3 (the "ragtime" variation) sounds like a real challenge.
@@timward276 yeah, op.111 is one of the most mentally taxing pieces of music I've ever tackled, after going through it you literally feel fatigued
Too much talk, not enough piano
To those who thinks op111 is more difficult than op106, I would love to see your video recordings of you playing the entire Hammerklavier on stage or record this piece in 1 take.
Ppl were like:”oh 111 is more difficult in interpretation”
Well ,what about the third movement of 106, and what about the following fugal movement that is considered as the hardest passage Beethoven wrote , both in mental and technique way.
The challenge for 111 is the interpretation, the challenge for 106 is try not collapse on the stage XD
You don't even play piano lol
He addressed that in his video, watch it again if need be
Also, the word “interpretation” far surpasses “technically difficult” by any metric. I might be able to play op. 111 the whole way through and technically speaking it wouldn’t be as demanding as op. 106, however that particular sonata reaches a point of transcendence where the player has to literally become spiritually active and almost quasi-religious to even attempt the 2nd movement. Such is not the case with the op. 106.
@@zomb7138 I do my friend, I also recorded the entire op106 in one take. The dificculty is just different level.
@@vincentrubio2859 Yes, my point is, if you haven't play op106 in a performance situation you won't understnad how challange op106 is in the "spiritual" way. People just asserted that Op106 is difficult in technique and op111 is difficult in spritual way, they never thought about that Op106 can be mentally challanging as well because they most likely haven't perform this piece under pressure. You can't just say Mozart Piano Sonata is more difficult than Rach 3rd because you think it is more difficult in spritual way, difficulty is based on performer's feeling , not audience or classical music lover's.
He said those are very close to another. I think Hammerklavier is harder but the step between 106 and 111 is a lot smaller than the step between 111 and Appassionata
Though not a player, I was happy to see that you picked Opus 101 in 4th place. It's my personal favourite, along with Opus 7, which IS underrated. Critics tore Beethoven apart over it, but was transformative for him.
You convinced me to listening to Beethoven's sonatas again. So beautiful they are
Waldstein was much more difficult for me than the Appassionata. the third movement in the Waldstein is so much harder to make sound clean than the other. It requires a much more sophisticated pedal and clear voicing
For me the third movement pedalling of the Waldstein became really straightforward, once I changed the balance of the sound of right and left hand, I could use Beethoven's very long pedals without problems ! And then the interjected trio parts in the 3rd are also playable with very little pedal. Basically either very long or short pedals. Could do a video on Waldstein some time!
@@PianoTechSupport The trills are what really got me, especially after the first two movements. Can't imagine how much worse it'd be with that longer second movement. The one he went with is more like a rest for the final movement. I believe Andras Schiff said the Waldstein was his favorite.
Played both and…yes, you’re right 😂👍
it’s possible that schiff likes the waldstein most overall, i know he said it may be the most brilliant (i’m guessing he means bright and shining), but i also know op. 109’s finale is his favourite movement (at least based on his lecture recitals)
@@benlizon He mentioned it in his lectures actually. Granted, he may say this about multiple pieces. I haven't watched them all.
I totally agree about opus 111. A wonderful yet spiritual sonata. Also, the magnificent opus 7 is truly marvellous.
Acknowledging op. 7 shows that you have a good understanding of the Sonatas. A less experienced musician wouldn’t comprehend it’s difficulty. Last movement of Op 31 no 3 is another silent killer…
Thank you very much. Yes ; i played both op 7 and 31 3 and I always think where should I put 31 3? BTW! You know what I feel like is IDENTICAL to 31/3? Another sonata i played, Prokofiev sonata 2! Immense similarty.
Op 31 no 3 has a lot going for it. Notes are pretty simple, you can get through it pretty fast, but raising the speed in the second and fourth movement and my god interpreting the first one maturely is a tall order. The third movement also needs you to be expressive and so on but its smaller and more manageable..
I have been working on the Appassionata Sonata and I honestly thought it would be a bit easier, but then again, I haven’t really played that much of the Beethoven Sonatas. First sonata I learned was Moonlight, then Pathetique. Then I went through a period where nothing would sound right when I did my Beethoven practice for new pieces, so for a few years, I kind of stopped learning the Beethoven Sonatas, but kept learning other hard pieces by Schubert, Chopin, and other composers. Now I’m at the point where my new Beethoven repertoire sounds okay at least, slow, but not like very wrong sounding. Hardest part of the Appassionata Sonata for me right now and what’s slowing me down is the third movement left hand, specifically the alternating intervals passage in C minor with like the thirds and octaves, that’s quite awkward on my small hands. The ending Presto is easier on my left hand than the alternating intervals.
Waldstein just seems like it would be harder because of how fast the repeated chords are, I tend to have a harder time with fast repeated notes than with fast alternations
I thought Hammerklavier was going to be the hardest, and the 32nd at fourth place, but they were all assumptions, since I've never played them, just listened. Very interesting and informative video!
trust me it was very hard deciding the last 4 or 5! haha
@@PianoTechSupport i can imagine, lol
I suspect the person that made the video hasn't played them either.
@@justsomeguy7044 He's a very skilled pianist, so I think he at least studied them
@@justsomeguy7044 I have to inform you that that's not true 🤓
Op. 111 definitely deserves this spot...
Quite a challenging sonata to interpret, with the usual beethovinian grandeur but also a spiritual understanding underlying the entire piece
Nice and well thought-out tier list I would say... +1 Sub
I’m preparing op. 31 no 3 (the hunt) right now for a recital and, for me, it’s one of those pieces where all the places that seem easy turn out to be really difficult, and all the spots that look hard at first are actually fairly easy lol
Yuppp.. The slow parts of the first movement were the trickiest to me
I just performed op. 31/3 a couple months ago. I thought parts of the first movement (that crazy 32nd note run and the upward running arpeggios) were awfully tough, and getting the light, whimsical sound in teh Scherzo wasn't easy either. The finale is very hard, but pretty pianistic--and *fun as hell* to play.
yes.
How much I love the 'Hunt' Sonata in E flat major 🎼🎹❤
The finale of the Hammerklavier is technically the most demading of all.
Placing Opus 7 so high and giving it more exposure made me happy as its my favourite sonata next to Opus 101. It is a huge piece and only elite players can handle its technical but also emotional challenges!
APPASSIONATA IS IN THE TOP 3!!! I love that piece! It's my favorite piece of ALL TIME!!! (I already mostly learned the 2nd and 3rd movements already, even though you categorized this sonata in Elite.)
I really like how you've explained the Hammerklavier versus Opus 111. Even Brendl stopped performing the Hammerklavier as he got older because of its sheer physical demands. But 111 is of transcendental musical conception, so just mastering the notes is hardly sufficient. Bravo. I do think these final two should be in a category by themselves as well.
Earlier in the list, I found some of the "easiest" to be difficult, in the manner of Mozart, in that they require a very light touch that is difficult (for me at least) to master. Also, Beethoven mixed and matched the difficulty in his early and middle periods -- the Moonlight finale, for example, is at least a magnitude more difficult than the first two movements. The Pathetique's first movement is much more difficult than the other two, although the second movement requires a high level of musicality that can be lost if all one does is read the notes.
Thanks for this and your other videos. They show a lot of serious thought and are very enjoyable.
Finally, someone in the comments who gets what I'm talking about. Thank you!!
@@PianoTechSupport btw I find Lebeswohl to be among the most difficult, more difficult for me than the Appassionata. Can't get the legato it needs in the first movement, and just can't play the finale :-)
I’ve taught 111 a couple of times in my career, but never had the pleasure of teaching hammerklavier…..people seem more attracted to 111, though always find it a huge challenge.
I have played op.111 for 4 years now. I'm only starting to get the first movement right. But in the process i've forgotten how to play the 2nd movement.
Op.81a and Op.101 are harder than Appassionata and Waldstein. Hammerklavier is the hardest.
LM. I agree totally. Also the op. 31 no 1 is much technical harder than op 31 no 2 and 3 .
I completely support the idea of Op. 111 being the most difficult due to the interpretational challenges that one faces amidst the technical demands of both movements. I just recently played 109, 110, and 111 on a single program and even though my love of 109 is deep, I couldn't stop my obsession with 111. I played 101 back in grad school and I have not played 106 yet, but after so many hearings of 106 I am aware enough to know that a good technical rendition of it will very likely produce a good musical rendition. I know many will disagree with me on this, but 106 isn't the most emotionally touching Sonata Beethoven wrote. Unfortunately, the focus is often on the technical demands and the grandiosity of the work as a whole, which often dictates the "difficulty" lists. This is not so with 111. There is something much more profound in 111 that if missed, will render the entire 27-28 minutes as quite empty, IMO, even if it is technically well done. For example, (and I'm not afraid to admit) that the performances of 111 by Pogorelich, Katie Mahan, and Daniil Trifonov left me in absolute tears by the end, but the performances of Brendel, Pletnev, and Pollini were like, "meh."
I guess the point I'm trying to make here (which the video commentary proposes already), is that there can be good and not-so-good performances of 106, but it is going to be technical in nature and probably won't have such a wide range of effect on the listener emotionally. However, with 111, the technical ability necessary to transmit the profound emotional and spiritual effect on an interpretational level is what makes this not only one of the greatest works in the repertoire, but also a substantial test on the performer as one of the most difficult tasks we try to achieve on stage. Order and peace from the chaos and mayhem. The victory of bliss and acceptance over pain and the negativities in life. To me, it is just simply astounding that Beethoven would end 111 the way he did and then walk away from the genre. I don't know how to put into words what that means...
Sorry, I kind of lost myself there for a moment, but I must also say that I am super happy to see Op. 7 in the "Elite" category. That Sonata is almost impossible. However, I do disagree with the placement of 101. I think the 2nd and 4th movements place that Sonata ahead of 110 for sure, at least technically, and deserves to be in the Elite category for that reason. Honestly, the only movement in 110 that makes it difficult is the treacherous dance. The B-section is so difficult to finger properly that it is almost a miracle to play it accurately. 101 has many more places where things can go wrongly.
Having learned and performed all in the elite category (other than 106), I would revise the order to be Opp. 7, 110, 109, 53, 57, 101, 106 and finally 111.
The second movement to me sounds like a retrospective of his own life with humble beginings peroiods of joy, exhileration and sorrow and finally a quiet uncerimonius departure; a calm acceptance of his end.
For me, the third movement of the Waldstein was also one of those pieces that just never freaking ends! It's hard enough to do those trills and scale in the left hand properly 🥵
Hahaha so right, so right!
As I remember it and it’s been a long time since I last played it the coda of the third movement is very very hard to play well. It has octaves that need to glide as fast as single note scales. Given that it also needs to be played at a presto tempo very few pianists can manage it properly. When it was written the last 3 pages were considered unplayable. It’s a great Sonata though.
*octave glissando
That movement is one of the most beautiful pieces within all Beethoven 32 sonatas imo
@@michaelsims1160 Artur Schnabel provided an excellent solution in his edition: one can play the glissandoes with both hands, without missing a single note. I have found this an excellent solution. I heard Rudolf Serkin playing this: he licked his fingers, and then played the octave glissandos. He said that he always checked that he could do this on the piano provided, and that if he couldn't do it, he would change the programme!
I am currently learning op. 110 (piano sonata 31). This piece is crazy. It is probably his most subtle, introverted piano sonata, and there are so many things to consider. The recitative drives me crazy because everything has to be so well thought out, but at the same time it can’t sound too rehearsed to where it feels shallow. It’s not something you can simply memorize; you have to play it consciously every time you play it.
Nice video to lean more. I love all.
My father used to listen Appassionata every day like a habit. He would also listen Hammerklavier a lot. I have not decided yet which one is my favorite one.I am still very young in music compare to him...jJajaja😅😘...Thank you!!.He was fan of C. Arrau and Glenn Gould playing them.
Glad to see op.10 no.3 is up there on your list. I remember looking at some rankings when I was practicing it and it was way lower than I personally felt it should be.
Can I ask about your decision on the Op. 27 No. 1 (21st), and the Op. 90? (13th)? I'm sure I'd have other questions, but these are the only 2 sonatas I have any real experience with. I consider the Op. 27 No. 1 to be very technically AND musically demanding, whereas the Op. 90 aside from about 3 difficult passages lacks any serious technical difficulty, but is incredibly musically in depth. So I guess in my eyes they round out to about equal difficulty, so why are they as far apart as they are on the list? (With all due respect to your opinion of course. I can tell that this list is very well thought about).
I know the list is subjective, but you're clearly underestimating op 101... I've played many Sonatas, including Waldstein and Appassionata and I can assure you that 101 is waaaay harder, both technically and musically. Arguably it's even harder than 109, 110 and 111.
I have been working on The Tempest and Appasionata in recent months, and have been wondering what to learn next. I think I would like something less demanding than Appasionata next time, and you have given me some great ideas! By the way, I find it interesting that one of my cats gets in my lap every time I get to the climactic arpeggios toward the end of the first movement, making it even more difficult to play well!
thank you and im glad it helped :D
Op.2 number 2 is actually more difficult than you think.
I thoroughly agree! It's technically very difficult and easy to give a mediocre performance of.
Yep, that one is pretty tricky
Also op.2 no.1
agreed
Absolutely correct.
A good ranking and it is interesting to observe that the most difficult pieces are not the most beautiful.
Op.2/2 is pretty brutal
Yes! It is.
Yes, I agree. Op. 2/2 is, in my opinion, consistently unranked in terms of difficulty. But I suppose it all depends on the pianist.
Having studied and played op.111 in multiple occasions I can confirm that it is, indeed, nightmarishly difficult to memorize and interpret properly
In my opinion Hammer klavier n29 is the most difficoult Beethoven's sonata, but I agree with you that n32 op 111 is a more profound work, it's one of my favourite piano compositions of all times. In my experience, very dufficoult to memorize the second movement without fake notes.
Totally respect your opinion!! thank you!
I liked your point regarding the difficulty being in "the understanding of op.111". In the late sonatas as well as in the late quartets (and arguably more so in those) it's as if Beethoven has gone over to the other side - as in that dimension that we otherwise associate with death. For me, no one gets as close to conveying that as Maurizio Pollini (despite his coolness toward - and even disdain for - personal interpretation), while this "other side" aspect is the reason, I think, for why the late sonatas are the greatest - and therein the most difficult - to properly do justice too etc.
Only 2 movements in op.111. If you decide difficulty based on length of middle movement (like in Waldstein), then op.111 is so easy we are born able to play it!
are you including the third movement of "moonlight" in the same category as the first movement? Didn't see it in the other categories.
Great video, as someone who's played all the sonatas I have to respectfully disagree with your last two choices, both are difficult but the philosophical and spiritual nature is very personal, and in my impossibly unbiased opinion the hammerklavier is technically more difficult and conceptually more difficult to put together. When I used to teach 20 years ago I found that students also had the same challenges and I would send them to another musician friend to get second opinions of these great works, 95% of the time most pianists had the same opinion, thank you for your work and putting us together and hopefully my very biased opinion adds to your success.
In the middle of preparing all 32 for a festival in Mexico next month. Here for all its worth is my very different rankings from easiest to most difficult. Surely the second movement of op.111 is such incredibly great music that it virtually plays itself and doesn't need 'interpretation' (as long as you can master those dreadful trills!). Everything is difficult to do well though and I admire someone who can play the 49s with Mozartian grace and elegance.
1 - Op.49/2
2 - Op.49/1,
3 - Op.14/2,
4 - Op.14/1,
5 - Op.79,
6 - Op.2/1,
7 - Op.10/1,
8 - Op.79,
9 - Op.26,
10 - Op.13,
11 - Op.27/2,
12 - Op.10/3,
13 - Op.2/2,
14 - Op.22
15 - Op.31/2,
16 - Op.28,
17 - Op.27/1,
18 - Op.54,
19 - Op.10/2,
20 - Op.78,
21 - Op.31/3,
22 - Op.2/3,
23 - Op.110
24 - Op.31/1,
25 - Op.7,
26 - Op.81,
27 - Op.109,
28 - Op.53,
29 - Op.57,
30 - Op.111,
31 - Op.101,
32 - Op.106
Thanks for your input!
As someone who has played all 32, I have never wanted this sentence to not be a total lie more in my life.
Very interesting, and I think I pretty much agree with your categorization. I think it would be even more interesting to break it further into movements, since some of the sonatas have both easy and very hard movements.
As someone who can play all 32 of them, I think it's a pretty good list. However, I think there are few changes I can make. Op. 26 should swap with Op. 27 No. 1, as it doesn’t contain any major technical or musical challenges. Only the 4th movement can be a bit annoying to learn. Op. 27 No. 1 on the other hand has a very technically challenging finale and the on-off beat segment in the second movement is no easy feat too as you have to play slurs with one hand and staccato with the other. It is not easy to pull off at all especially at high speed. Also there is no way in heck Op. 2 No. 2 is in the painless category. It is quite the opposite. The first movement alone already makes that piece demanding at the very least, with its incredibly fast triplets, broken octaves and don't even get me started on the dev. Not to mention the incredibly high clarity requirement in this movement. The 4th movement is also no walk in the park as there are several difficult spots like fast scales, fast arpeggios, jumps over a tenth in the LH and an awkward triplet run in the last page. I'd say this piece, along with Op. 2 No. 3 and Op. 7 are the 3 hardest sonatas in his early period. In addition, I would also swap the place for Op. 31 No. 3 and Op. 31 No. 1 as the latter is a lot more demanding technically, especially in the finale as it's full of difficult counterpoints while playing at a decently fast tempo. I would also swap Op. 101 with Op. 110. Yes, Op. 110 is harder to interpret, but Op. 101 is way more difficult technically as both the second and fourth movements require insane counterpoint/fugal techniques. And lastly, Op. 106 will always be at the top. It's no less harder to interpret than Op. 111 and combine that with the sheer technical challenges it's not hard to see why it's one of the most difficult pieces written for the piano ever.
at least for me, the op90 and 81a ranking are ok.. i would say op90 is at the border.. but depends on how to you see things
I agree with you most of the time (I haven't played all 32 sonatas, only 12 of them, and of the difficult ones just op. 53 and 57). But at least for me the op. 27 n1 is harder than the Tempest, I would switch them.
Thanks for watching 🤩
Oh, I agree! Op. 27 No. 1 is more difficult to play well. I love this sonata!
Bold take to rank anything over the Hammerklavier/op. 106.
My disagreements:
Ranked too difficult:
op. 31/3 (easiest of the op. 31 sonatas in my opinion although they're all roughly comparable in difficulty; I think 31/1 is the hardest of the three)
op. 110, easiest of the last five, and much easier than the Waldstein. Also I think it's the easiest of the last five to interpret.
op. 26, one of the easier ones except for the finale and Variation 5 of the opener.
Ranked too easy:
op. 2/2 in the easiest?? Much harder than op. 2/1.
op. 2/3 is nearly as hard as op. 7 and a lot harder than op 10/3.
op. 101 should be right behind the Hammerklavier and op. 111, and maybe even above the op. 111.
My top 5 would be op. 106, op. 101, op. 111, op. 53, op. 109 (Appassionata and op. 7 would be the next two).
I've performed individual movements from many but I've performed all of op. 2/1, op. 14/1, op. 10/3, op. 31/3 and op. 110.
A young Daniel Baremboim was once given a 0/10 for his seemingly good performance of Beethoven's Op.111 at an International Competition by Arturo Benedetti-Michelangeli, one of the members of the Jury, because he felt the choice of the Piece was wrong: in the Italian Maestro's own words, a young, debutante concert pianist doesn't know what to do with that Music.
And I feel like he maybe was too harsh, but got some points.
It's the one piece that people should not choose for competitions especially, in my opinion...😅
I adore the 111. But Mon dieux, the trills!
I agree with most suggestions; but I would put op. 2/1 and op.27/2 behind op. 28, op. 7 as "demanding" and op. 111 behind op. 106.
I'm with you that the 7th is under rated. Personally one of my favourites. It a secret pleasure other people ignore. Now you've let the cat out of the bag!
The great thing about music is it's not a Universal truth that everybody needs to agree upon. Everybody has their own thoughts on it.
For me the argument of the sheer spiritual level of understanding needed for Opus 111 could equally apply to the Adagio 3rd movement of The Hammerklavier, for me one of the greatest and most profound movements in all music, a monumental and epic journey. The sheer level of concentration and focus required to play this movement is immense
In Beethoven's own words he describes this movement as this, "Through penance and purification to the pure fountain." And the only possible release from all this suffering, longing and contemplation of nearly 20 minutes is the final triumph of the immense fugue of the final movement. Those two final chords of the movement mark the end of the epic struggle from darkness to light.
The Hammerklavier is both the most difficult interpretively and technically so for this reason i place The Hammerklavier as the most difficult.
Oh, so you are saying that my absolute favorite sonata is harder than Hammerklavier? I think I understand your point. It is extremely hard to interpret Op.111 2nd movement, with all its borderline spiritual/transcendental nuances, and the Op.106 sounds impressive even if you are just playing the notes without much thought about the musical aspects. I knew that the Op.111 was among the most challenging sonatas, but I still had the illusion that I would work on it someday. Now I am struggling with the 1st movement of Pathetique, so I guess there is no chance I would ever be able to do a decent performance of that piece. But there is no harm in trying, right? Maybe in the next decade 😅
Very interesting and informative, especially for a dumb klutz like myself. I look forward to listening to the Beethoven sonatas in the order presented.
La dificultad de las sonatas de el maestro, es que no es solamente a nivel interpretativo, sino que también hubo consecuencias del momento (el instrumento que se interpretó) y que debe sonar a Beethoven, sin que suene a Mozart, Haydn o Salieri.
I’m surprised you ranked the Pathetique quite a bit below Op 90. I personally found it wayyyy easier than the Pathetique.
No worries! I mean that's why my list is really a subjective opinion 😁 it shouldn't be regarded as "right or wrong" because there's no sense in ranking things like this anyways, it's just for entertainment. for me personally Op 90 requires one to be more subtle, more refined pianist. I feel like it would be easier to make an OK sounding pathetique compared to a Op. 90. But I also appreciate your view!
I wouldn’t call op. 2/1 4th movement “painless”. It’s short but quite technically difficult
I would have preferred to hear the rationale behind the classification, or even segments of the music that caused them to be in certain rankings rather than just the opening handful of bars.
I might be doing that some time when I have two hours of time for a video! Btw, I played the opening bars to remind listeners of what the sonata sounds like, my rating did not depend on the first couple of bars if you're thinking that.
Compared to a list I drew up earlier, many of the positions are similar. The biggest discrepancy is Op.78 (No.24) which you rank sixteenth whereas my list has it ranked twenty-sixth.
Sono d'accordo sul fatto che la sonata opera 111 sia difficilissima dal punto di vista interpretativo, e specialmente il secondo tempo. 👍
you know its an actually accurate tier list when he cares about how difficult it is to play it well instead of just being able to play it
Yorkzie, you're a scholar !! Thank you haha someone who understands
@@PianoTechSupport I'm an amateur pianist haha, I just figured out that the quality of the performance matters at an early stage (mainly after an embarrassing period of playing difficult pieces in horrible quality lol)
Op.14 no.2, my first Beethoven sonata! I felt so worthless when I saw its rating. The section with triplets and sixteenth notes were pretty easy…
Why do you feel worthless? The first Beethoven Sonata I was given in college was Op. 14 No. 1 (I had played Pathetique quite poorly for my audition). I grew to love it. It's a truly beautiful work. Now that my technique has been fixed, partly because of that sonata (the 3rd movement teaches a lot about scale playing), I can play whichever of the sonatas I feel like practicing. Everybody has to start somewhere. Sounds like your teacher knows what they are doing, which you should be happy about.
@@jasongallagher631 well people tell me that I should be glad that I’m skilled enough to play Beethoven sonatas. I guess they’re right, but I have such high standards….
Video is poppin off
Let's say that Op. 111 and Op. 106 are on the same level of difficulty with the latter requiring more physical and mental efforts.
Couldn't agree more!!!
There are some difficult left hand passages in op.57 but I wouldn't rank it that high. I think Waldstein and Hunt have both more techniques and measures
Hmm I get your point, but I don't remember many tricky bars in 31/3 and I played it quite often in public. Most I can think of is 2nd movement (which doesn't have to be at lightning speed, that already makes it manageable) and then last movement has a simple structure but somewhere towards the end there's a passage or two that I think needed a lot of practice till it worked.
About op 57., don't forget of those tr~~~~~ on weak fingers with sustained notes below and p or pp in the first movement... That's the hardest for me.
@@PianoTechSupport I agree with you over 32/3 - I'm a decent but not professional pianist and I always found it a real pleasure to play: very satisfying and not really hard. I have quite small hands.
The op. 49 are sonatinas, not intended to be published as sonatas. Beet left them at home but one of his brothers had them published against Beethoven’s intention . For money probably. Op. 110 and op. 111 are indeed philosophical or just heavenly..
Zero chance 111 is harder than 106 sorry I know we like to fellate the late Beethoven’s but to say that 111 is harder because it’s unique/hard to understand is borderline missing the point. If you can do the 106 justice you can do the 111 easy, the 106 stands as not only a beast of technique but musicality as well, testing your entire arsenal as a pianist to make a sensible interpretation. 106 probably stood for a good few decades as the hardest piano piece is the standard repertoire.
A 15 min slow movement, a chromatic fugue of blazing speeds that cover the entire range of the keyboard, an opening movement that is erratic and bombastic. The amount of musical difficulties in the 106 exceed the 111, which I have performed on a few occasions. In particular, most of the musical difficulties lie in the final few variations after the “boogie woogie”, where there’s an idea of reaching into the heavens, free of earthly burdens. Still, it is fairly consistent within this spiritual framework and the first movement is not that musically difficult.
The Hammerklavier contains the struggle of everything, from the deepest depths of the soul, the triumph, the confusion and then to the transcendent as well in the fugue.
Thanks for your comment! As someone who played both 106 and 111, I take the freedom to come to my conclusion that Op. 111 is harder for me. Seriously, I like all these comments I'm getting, but you guys just need to make your own video and rank them (no disrespect meant!!). To say I'm "missing a point" would suggest that there is a "right" way to rank difficulty of sonatas, which is ultimately a subjective matter
They are all pretty hard for me ;-) nice list with a good twist at the end.
Personal favorite beethoven sonata op.111
Thank you for op.111.
I can agree with a lot of these. However, just wondering why is op 14 no1 , op 14 no 2, op 2 no1, op 10 no1 and op 10 no 2 in Painless. I would actually put these in the Same category with Pathetique and Moonlight in Advanced.
You do realise that Op 49 no 2 is like Grade 6 Level. Op 79 is like Grade 8 level. And then all those I mentioned above are ARSM Level and found in the Associate Diplomas like Pathetique and Moonlight. So these ones I mentioned in particular are significantly harder than op 49 no1, no 2 and op 79 so I hope you understand why I think those should be in the second Category.
I also think Les Adieux should be in the last category, In ABRSM this is both LRSM and FRSM.
I think they belong in that category it's just that I wouldn't describe the category as "painless".
I know by memory the easiest one and when I opened the video I was just hoping it wasn't the easiest!
for the entire video i was thinking "imagine if the hammerklavier isn't #1 there's no way" and sure enough there was a way
😂😂😂 it's like those movies where you think "ah okay they're gonna get married at the end" and then an hour before the wedding someone gets their head chopped off
Great video! All in all I agree with the order, but if you compare a few "easy" ranked sonatas with harder ones, sometimes it's not quite right. For example, I think No. 9 is much harder than No. 27. There are some difficult passages in the first movement of No. 27, but I find them much easier than the last movement of No. 9. Also I think for example No. 30 is easier than some of the earlier ones like No 11. But still, the late sonatas are harder to play on an emotional basis than on a technical basis.
Absolutely fair to disagree!! I know that difficulty is a very subjective topic
@@PianoTechSupport yes, totally! One can't even define wether "difficulty" is just technique, or making it sound well, or understanding the piece. There are many definitions
easiest：19，20
easy：1，9，25
relative easy：11，12
easy-medium：5，7，8，10，13，15，24
medium：2，3，6，16，17，18，22，27
relative difficult：4
difficult：14，30，31
very difficult：28，32
extreme difficult：21，23，26
insane：29
No way no.12 is easier than no.10
Concertos next?
Good idea 🤩
101 should for sure be in the elite category but otherwise I don’t have many issues with this list
that was probably the most surprising selection, aside from maybe op. 27/1
I am really not sure about that. We have movements in the "Painless" category, that are far more difficult than in the "Elite" category. For example the third movement of op. 10/2 is certainly a much greater challenge than the second movement of the Waldstein Sonata and so one. The solution is simple, we should rank every single movement.
I have the Bosworth Edition No 176 of the complete sonata's edited by Franz Liszt. These are ranked by difficulty. Op49 No2, Op49 No1, Op79, Op14 No2, Op14 No1, Op2 No1, Op10 No1, Op10 No2, Op2 No3, Op10 No3, Op13, Op22, Op28, Op7, Op78, Op26,Op31 No3, Op31 No1, Op90, Op27 No1, Op27 No2, Op54, Op 31 No2, Op53, Op81a, Op57, Op101, Op110, Op109, Op111, Op106.
I found waldstein was easier to learn than les adieux just because of the latter's third movement.
No matter why Henle have a 'Beethoven - five famous Piano Sonatas' edition. It includes Op 13, 26, 27-2,28, 31-2 that's all in your advanced cataloge. I have this book, I was hoping to buy this for a lighter bundle (I really don't want to buy them in seperate edition but this 5 bundle are already almost 2/3 of thickness of full edition of book 1 or 2.
Op.111 is my favourite Beethoven sonata
Great video! My own experience shuffles few of them around, but it’s subjective as you said. Would you consider a future video that digs deeper into specific passages for each of them?
yes I think I could do a 2 hour video on this!!
The first movement of Op 79 is more difficult than the rest of the sonata : I wouldn't put it in the 1st difficulty degree
Funnily enough I tried playing the Op.111 last year. I want to play at some point.
I agree with your point: the #111 is dificulte tô me tô even anderstand.