I find it interesting that centuries later, we're asking if Anne of Cleves was too ugly for Henry VIII, but in fact, maybe the reason she gave into the annulment so easily, is that HE was too ugly for her.
Yes! This is what I have always thought! Since she seemed to have no idea about sex either she was probably like yeah I am happy to be alone. I can’t imagine how badly his wound smelled?!?! She has become my favorite wife!
I agree. I would have been so happy not to sleep with this fat smelly self-centered man again. She had it all without having to sleep and be intimate with his awful body.
Not only that he was ugly, his mood changes were extreme and dangerous, if he didn't get what he wanted, you were death or at least in jail. The only thing that she lost in that divorce was a public face, but she gained freedom, riches, self respect and control over her life
She was the luckiest. The pressure of being Henry’s wife: living in fear of displeasing him, dealing with his toxic temper and bad hygiene but not being able to complain , the pressure of having to produce a male baby (which she has no control over), and potentially dying in childbirth...instead she got a comfortable, wealthy life. Good for her!
@n/a explaining the fact that you’re so insecure in your beliefs and opinions that you have to resort to name calling for anyone who doesn’t agree with you? Is that what you want me to explain? 😂
@n/a luck means you have no control over the situation. Anne of Cleves could’ve fought things like Catherine of Aragon did. You wanna talk lucky, talk Jane Seymour. She died before she could piss him off.
In the whole sorry Tudor saga it was Anne of Cleves who emerged the clear winner. Surrounded by comfort, for the rest of her life she was free to live as she chose... a very smart woman indeed.
Well, except that Edward-- or rather his regents-- turfed her out of Bletchingly Castle after Henry's death. She got on better with Mary, especially since Anne was willing to convert to Catholicism. Anne was good at adapting to changed circumstances.
Fortune smiled on her. Didn’t have to sleep with him, got land, titles, position and money out of it. Also something much more elusive for woman back then; independence and freedom to be her own person (as much as anyone could then).
She made that fortune by not being the ninny the English ladies were. She was an intelligent and practical Germanic woman and turned her lemon into delicious lemonade.
That's how I think it went down. An older, fat man in disguise tried to flirt with her, she didn't know the court custom and was like 'eww' and he got salty.
She loved her life post-Henry, and he was so relieved that she didn’t fight the annulment that he gave her properties, an income, access to court, and the freedom to live her life as she pleased. She outlived Henry himself, as well as all his last wife, Kathryn Parr. A life well lived!
What we hear of history and what actually happened may be more than two different things. Being the narcissist that he was, he may have realized she had a mind of her own, and he wouldn’t be able to direct her life like he wanted to. His way of getting out of a challenging marriage was to put the blame of several things on her, making her the “bad guy.” He felt guilty, thus offering her so much to make up for his actions and making him look like the very generous guy. Now everyone would think well of him and he could hold his head up high. Now he could marry again to someone he could have more influence over in that marriage. In actuality, he lost the person who may have helped him become the great King he aspired to be. History could have been different!!!!
lol if Henry were alive today, he be diagnosed with CTE after his jousting incident and been medicated so he would never have left Catherine in the first place lol
Bingo. She didn't follow the script in his head and he felt slighted, or even embarrassed. I don't think she was ignorant of how babies happen either. I think this was a canny woman. As soon as she was offered an annulment, she took it, and she was set for life.
He was also pretty gross by this point. I really don't blame her. Not a great track record with his wives or children terrible personality and very likely to behead you. Not exactly medieval Fabio.
She also was from abroad, not a born english woman, which might have contributed to her staying alive. And she immediately agreed to Henry`s demands, which might also have contributed to her keeping her head.
She wasn't only clever and probably beautiful, she also had a very pleasant character. She was on good terms with all of Henry's children, especially the princesses Mary and Elizabeth, and in her will she not only thought of friends and family, but also provided for all her servants.
She seems attractive and of all the wives quite clever. She let the little temper tantrum child go, agreed with his demands and lived to tell the tale and even thrived. So good on her.
It was customary in England, according to Erasmus, for women to greet and be greeted by kissing on the mouth, considered a shocking practice by the rest of Europe. The only foreign woman Henry knew well was Catherine of Aragon, who had been in England for a decade when they married. And EVERY English woman at court knew that no matter how old, fat, and smelly the King got, you always pretended like you were swooning with desire, and NEVER admitted you recognized him when he went in disguise. The thing I dont understand is why no one gave Anne a heads up? Surely they could have sent someone who spoke German to tell her how to behave when she met him? Or maybe, like Henry, they were so used to how things were at court that they didnt think of it either. I also wonder if the "foul smells" he said came off of her were his own wound smells heightened and released from the exertion of trying that first night.
I don't think anybody had ever told Henry that the good looks he had as a youth had faded and that he really was just a fat old man with a never healing festering wound. He probably was deluded enough to believe she would be pleased. Also English traditions that basically had a thing about lovers coming in disguise to woo. I guess Henry figured she would recognise him instantly as her love and give in, despite never having seen the king before.
I don’t think Henry ever loved anyone, he was a selfish, monstrous man. No man would happily murder 2 women in cold blood. I think Anne of Cleves had a lucky escape.
Before his (probable) TBI and subsequent personality change, he had a good relationship with his first wife in their early marriage, many male friends, and a court that considered him generous and good-natured. He was capable of affection, though perhaps not other-focussed enough to be a true and healthy love. In his later years, he was, as you say, selfish and monstrous. I think the scary part of it all is that he changed; good king Hal became the Tyrant Henry, and the implications of such a mutable self are sobering.
K R he simply could not comprehend what the word “no” meant. He had been an absolute ruler with nobody to check him since he was a teenager. His mindset was not one that we can even imagine.
He banned his first wife (Katherine of Aragon) from the court, she died alone without her own daughter and almost in poverty. He murdered his second wife and destroyed her and her family reputation without sufficient evidence. I'm not sure about this, but I've read he threatened Jane saying to her "remember what happened to Anne for meddling in my affairs". He rejected and humiliated Anne of cleves saying she was 'ugly', 'fat' and 'old'. He murdered Katherine Howard. He threatened and almost Imprisoned Katherine Parr for her religious beliefs, if she hadn't apologized and 'changed' her mind, he would have executed her and probably married her friend (another woman called Katherine, I don't remember her last name) He was a selfish beast, I think he didn't love any of his wives
Imagine how shocked & scared she must have been at their first meeting... she was on her way to marry a guy she never meets before, in a foreign country with a foreign language... and then an elderly, sickly, random man is kissing her...
As an artist I can only imagine how dangerous it would have been for Holbein to produce anything less than an entirely accurate portrait of Anne of Cleves from the beginning. He was an immensely talented artist and I feel her portrait is accurate. Having Henry as a patron would have been a nightmare! I think she was pretty. She and Katherine Parr were very fortunate women because they were able to work with a desperate and dangerous man and survive.
Katherine Parr had to back down and intercede to stop herself being arrested for heresy - she and Anne of Cleeves both read the room and did the best thing they could in their situations which is why they survived. Anne survived them all as she didn't fall for a waster like Thomas Seymour.
@@LadyCoyKoi Had the same thought while I was watching! Except I thought it might have been Boris Johnson... talking the talk without being able to walk the walk, and being too much of a shit to own up to his own faults.
She was definitely the most intelligent of all his wives. She knew how to survive in a world ruled by a misogynistic narcissist. And she never had to sleep with him. She has always been my favourite.
Well that lacks some needed info: The one I call "martyr" Queen Catherine Howard is my favourite. The tyrant rat was in his 50s and bc of an accident (plus poor hygiene back then) henry couldn't get it hard anymore; Howard (age 18) waited for him to have erections a whole year but nothing happened. She ran into Culpeper and they were spotted making out in the shadows, witness went to henry with the gossip trying to get compensation from him and he invented a bs crime "treason" which even Howard's uncle approved (!!!) So Queen Howard, who was Queen boleyn's cousin and still in her teens, would be murdered as the other lady was. Few months in the dungeon (traitor's gate if you know the castle) and a cold morning of February she offered her neck to the bloody hit man Queen Howard is my favourite and I hope henry VIII got what he deserved bc henry claimed to be the representative of God on earth, but if he was even a little familiar with the Bible he would have done what King Xerxes did to get Queen Esther (another late teens woman) as wife and in bed with him. This king did not kill any females and got his lady to love him
Can't really say she was the most intelligent but possibly the most fortunate. The choices and fates of the others doesn't come down to intelligence. As for not sleeping with him, she actually did but just didn't have to go very far in terms of intimacy
He may have divorced me but I outlived him and all his wives, I gave into the annulment so easily cause I didn’t want to marry him in the first place, he was pretty fat and ugly. Also, up here in heaven I can’t seem to find him... 🤭
Whenever I think of Anne I think of Joss Stone, so in my mind, she’s beautiful. Anne was my favorite of Henry’s wives, she turned lemons to lemonade and that’s not nothing!
It was also said that Anna had a rivalry with Catherine Parr due to religious disagreements and Anna was probably jealous of how close Parr to Elizabeth.
Yall are crazy henry was a horn dog and treated his women terrible. Men actually control whether a child is a man. Henry was a terrible person and a terrible king. I don't understand how you can support him.
Elizabeth Frantes Katherine had many children and one survived to adulthood. She also marshalled the English army as regent to defeat the invading Scots while Henry was busy losing jousts to Frances 1. After she refused to agree to have her marriage declared invalid and her daughter a bastard, Henry locked her away and kept her half starved. She and her daughter did not see one another ever again. Her daughter, the Princess Mary, was forced to be servant to Anne Boleyn’s child and Anne herself, put in writing that she should be beaten if she did not act with ‘enough servility’. If she was turned into the harridan you say she was, it wasn’t her mother who did it to her.
@@susanc4622 , a Cardinal from Rome begged Katherine of Aragon to divorce Henry to become a nun. That way, the marriage would have not been declared invalid nor Mary a bastard. Katherine refused, saying she was meant to be a wife. She was too stubborn. Henry was determined to replace her with another wife to give him that son he longed for. She was Mary's mother. Had she done her duty by her daughter, she would have agreed to enter a convent after she was sure her daughter was properly married. Too bad someone with a good insight into genetics reminded her how sickly the Tudor men were and that, even though Henry was relatively healthy, he was an anomaly and any son would not live long enough to reproduce. Not only did Prince Edward die young and childless, so did his bastard son, Henry Fitzroy (by Bessie Blount). Mary and her issue would have ascended the throne of a united, Catholic England. Katherine by her stubbornness and short-sightedness, kept her own daughter from what Mary yearned for; children and a Catholic country. What a pity!
@Elizabeth Frantes Ahem... "turned her daughter" "her one job was to have children, and she didn't do her job." The only problem was, that she didn't get a son. But really, she was the daughter of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castille and aunt to King Charles (Emperor Charles V). Like Anne of Cleves, she was not originally a subject of Henry's. So, the annulment alone was already putting a strain on Anglo-Spanish relations...
As her portrait reveals, Anne was actually attractive. Hans Holbein, one of the most talented and realistic painters ever, had no reason to depict her other than she really looked, and besides, he would never have dared to deceive Henry. Henry was simply angered by Anne's less than enthusiastic reception when SHE actually met HIM, and his ego was bruised. Moreover, Anne was not really Henry's type. She was tall, well built and blonde, and Henry preferred petite brunettes and redheads. (Her portrait concealed all these attributes). Anne spoke only German, which Henry did not understand, and her only talent was sewing. Henry's women were well educated, and were able to dance, sing, and play instruments. Finally, when it was announced that Henry was marrying Catherine Parr, many people were surprised, saying that she was not as pretty as was Anne.
I think if contemporaries were just commenting on how beautiful they were this might have been true. But what we are really think about is sexually attractive which is not the same thing. Anne of Cleaves seems to have been innocent and not attracted to Henry meaning she wasn’t able to attract him. Meanwhile Cathrine Parr was sexual, experienced and, let’s face it, banged like a shithouse door in a gale.
Far from being the dumped ugly duckling as history would have us believe, Anne was indeed a true survivor. Had Henry have been so repulsed by her, he would undoubtedly have had her banished far from court. It is impossible to imagine that a man so utterly ruthless would have felt the least bit guilty for so doing. I believe her that it was her undoubted displeasure at the manner of her first meeting with Henry that sealed her fate. Henry was a proud man, his ego as large as his waistline would have been crushed by Anne’s disdain at being manhandled by an unknown and slightly repulsive older man. Her ability, indeed the brilliance she showed in turning this into the life she would come to enjoy proves that she was a woman of very many talents. To have survived Henry was a major achievement, for him to bestow her with the title of “sister to the King,” demonstrates that she was far from being “not to his liking.”
Yeah it’s very rare, specially from my experience. I wish it was this way with the girl I love, if she’s not gonna love me back then I wish I had never had feelings for her to begin with, and had something more like this instead.
Weird he would have kissed her first and then exclaimed be doesn't like her? I think when he saw repulsion on her face he had to do something to save his face
Re Hans Holbein, what really established his reputation as a painter was that his portraits were known to be very accurate and that he didn't like to flatter his subjects - not to mention that he didn't suffer any consequences for not providing Henry VIII with an accurate depiction. So I think this portrait of Anne of Cleves is probably accurate to what she looked like.
One of his sketches of a nobleman Holbein apparently didn’t care for has a margin note “The eyes, a bit yellow” and depicts a very unpleasant looking man. I think Holbein had a way of being honest.
In an art history class I had many decades ago, it was pointed out how dazzling the clothing is that Anne is wearing. It is what draws you in more than her actual face. I don't agree that her appearance was "beautiful" but I think she had an average looking face. I did not know that she was tall and big boned for a woman of that period. I imagine those aspects were not appealing to Henry. However, I have always felt she was by far the most fortunate of his wives. She survived, prospered, and apparently was popular at court.
@@makeittrue I read that she was totally the oposite of what he liked: tall, big breasted, not an English rose. Also, there is that small little detail of Ann failing to recognize the King and him been unable to heal his wounded baby ego
@@makeittrue She has a lovely face. Her nose is a bit longish, but could be compared to actress Cate Blanchett today. Tall, a bit raw-boned, strong face, not a classic beauty but definitely a striking woman whose intelligence makes her face glow.
If it were “overly kind” he would have given her a paler complexion, thinner brows, thinner/ paler lips, slimmer/ paler hands, etc etc etc. She was not the perfect example of what was considered beautiful back then but if she were uglier than that picture than he would have done the things I’d listed above. She was a tall, beautiful woman with boundaries and that just seems to not be the taste of self important tyrannical men 🤷♂️
James ooohh was she not sufficiently shorter than Harry?problem there? The fashion of Anne’s home country were much different to England’s, so she wasn’t presented in a manner to tittilate a fat, old man. Impotence!
@Nenethegreat W Oh, those eyebrows these days... What is wrong with these women? As if they're trying to look like the missing link between us and Neanderthals
Anne was actually considered pretty by most people. Not as beautiful as her sister. Henry and Anne ironically grew close after the annulment. He clearly developed a fancy for her and rumours of an affair sparked. Heer portrait was said to have been mostly accurate except for a few smallpox scars on her face. So Anne was regarded as attractive for the time. His ego was hurt by her, he rejected her as a defence mechanism. Projecting his insecurity onto her.
When I was much younger and learned Henry had 6 wives, I looked up their portraits. When I saw Anne of Cleves, I remember thinking how beautiful, young and healthy she looked. I starrd at that portrait for so long trying to understand why anyone would think she was ugly, much less have the audacity to say it. Henry's royal ego was bruised and he had to make himself feel better about being rejected but even he knew she had done no harm or else he'd have cut her head off too and just been done with her.
@@nobodysbaby5048yep. She looks like Sophie Turner. Only Henry described her as unattractive. Others always said she was attractive but not as much as her sister. Apparently the portrait did look like her but it didn't show Anne's facial scars from disease. Their beauty standards were different. I never saw a portrait of Henry that I thought he was handsome in, even in his youth. He always looked slightly below average in the face to me. Katherine of Aragon was considered gorgeous for the time. But all her portraits look like different women to me and I don't see an exceptionally beautiful woman in any. Anne of Cleves was the most attractive based on her portrait and would likely be considered the most attractive in todays society. In reality Henry rejected Anne because she was not impressed with his looks at all. When he diguised himself as soneone else to greet her, she wasn't impressed. That is the main reason he 'rejected her, a bruised ego. He became close to her after the annulment and appeared to find her attractive. So much so it was rumoured they were lovers and that he might remarry her.
I’ve been reading and researching English royalty for many years and the Tudor dynasty is the most fascinating to me. After enjoying hundreds of books on the subject of his wives, I think that she was intelligent, personable, kind, and smart enough to foresee her future if she didn’t cooperate. And what did she have to lose by acquiescing to the annulment-absolutely nothing? At worst she continued to survive, even if it was away from court. In reality, she had a comfortable and respectable life where she was included as part of the Tudor family. I believe she was the luckiest wife of all. Far better to be Henry’s beloved “sister” than a wife. I’m a new subscriber from NJ, USA and am so glad to have found your channel.
Henry invited her to many court events and referred to her as a beloved sister. She was so intelligent to take the money and run. She had enough income and a household of her own for the rest of her life.
I still think she was the one that wasn't impressed with Henry and Henry called her ugly in order to protect his own pride 💁 I hardly think she was ugly, I think she was just too much for Henry's pride to deal with!
@@jerrycohencohen8901 He wasn't with her in the bed in the first place, though... I wouldn't be surprised if she found him unattractive too, he had a festering, nasty smelling wound and was *very* overweight
Big yikes, in modern standards a random guy or person kissing you out of nowhere would freak out anyone. This would be an equivalent to an r/niceguy situation.
Cleves is my favorite out of the six wives simply because she seems like such a normal, nice person, and it's honestly kind of gratifying to see someone like that come out "on top" in such a strange and ridiculous situation.
@@andreawaibel3584 no - he is much more efficient. Ignore Corona and let people fend for themselves and die. How many dead in the states my dear? Henry didnt kill that many people.
She lived her best life after the annulment. No strict controlling parents, no strict controlling husband. Just an easy life in the countryside with plenty of money.
This was so informative. Anne boleyn usually gets all the attention from academics and scholars. Ann of cleaves must have been mentally strong and capable to manoeuvre her way round the english court and king.
I agree, her portrait is the most attractive (and well done) of all the portraits of his wives. I don’t feel Hans Holbein did make her look better than she did in life. Out of all the portraits of Henry’s wives, Anne of Cleaves is the only one I can imagine how she looked in person. Can’t quite do that with the others.
Agreed. Funny how that portrait, despite this portrait being dismissed as a 16th century 'catfish', is probably the most accurate depiction of what one of Henry's wives looked like we have.
No way Queen Howard was recently reconstructed by computer and she bears a resemblance to Taylor Swift when she looks cute Plus she was 19 so natural splendour
Thank you so much for this video! I’m actually an interpreter who lives in Cleves and I can assure you: no one here has ever forgotten her! Her portrait by Holbein is all over the place.
I'm from the U.S and American school kids are often taught that Henry was disappointed with Anne of Cleves because he thought she was ugly. But if that famous portrait of Anne is accurate, I think she's actually quite pretty and would be even more so in modern hair and make up.
I always think of Anne of Cleves as the "one who got away". She was very pragmatic; she realised that nothing could be gained by going against the King but much could be gained by giving him his way. The portrait is wonderful, she looks, if not beautiful, then full of quiet charm. I think she was not showy enough for the King; he wanted a pretty, giggling fool who would adore him unquestioningly.
I love how you defended Anne! So wonderful! Can you imagine her thoughts if she were to have known people would be more fascinated with her for centuries as the mysterious lady who evaded being the Queen of a King you couldn't trust!?
Obviously, Anne of Cleves couldn’t be too bad looking or the initial discussions for the marriage with Henry VIII would have never gotten off the ground.
I remember being 9 and seeing the wives of Henry in a book designed to look like the diary of Elizabeth I . I thought she was easily the most beautiful out of all them from her dress to her pleasant composure. To find out that he thought she was ugly was laughable it was then that I knew he was a nut.
Is this the Royal Diaries series?? I absolutely loved that book and read it so many times and memorized all of Henry's 6 wives as a kid and I've always been so interested in the Tudor era ever since haha
lol how would you know what she looks like. Its said Hans portrait was not accurate as he was told to make her look better. Henry got catfished, thats why he was pissed. his ministers made her sound like a supermodel and she was plain. had it not been for high expectations of her looks, he would not have cared. if he were a nut, he wouldve had her killed like Anne and katherine 2
@@ChieftainHawke There's no definitive proof that Holbein the younger painted her in a more favorable light to the extent that she was not reminiscent to her portrait. Throughout his career he was known to create the likenesses of his clients very accurately. Of course certain liberties could be taken as one could see with his portrait of Henry which is clearly giving an air of propaganda just by the sheer size of the painting. However, during this time of Henry's search for his next wife , Hans had painted a few portraits of potentials,none of the other works have come under scrutiny as being deceitful or a misrepresentation. Lastly, given Henry's attitude at this time and his penchant for killing people on whims its fair to say that Hans as the official court painter (employed by Henry and a large contributor to not only painting people at court but also adding to the architecture and designs for jewelry) would not jeopardize his livelihood nor his life just to paint a women beyond recognition who had no control over his future. The motive simply isn't there and his resume speaks otherwise. Frankly, to even consider that she could have been "ugly" is ridiculous 🙄
I always figured that Holbein's other portraits were always vividly accurate, and I never saw any reason why Anne of Cleves' should be any different. So yes, I agree with what you've said here. Thank you for doing these videos.
I'd say the biggest success was Anne Boleyn, as without her there would be no Elizabeth. She was very cunning as well. But Anne of Cleves was the luckiest one, with better understanding of survival among noble men imo.
meredith mericle actually she wasn’t very good looking but she was pleasant to look at. Her sister was reported to actually be more good looking than her but Anne made up for it by being very smart and charming
@@noah0645 From every document I've heard she had a "unique" beauty. Not the type that fit the beauty standards of that time, but beautiful nonetheless.
Reading the Past he probably could have done-if she could stand both his weight on her body and the smell of his infected leg. I know he had picked up a venerial disease, but it had obviously not rendered him sterile. He was a fool not to take an obviously physically robust, sexually healthy woman to his bed. Though obviously an intelligent person, he was an idiot when it came to choosing a queen. I’m afraid that he was led by his dick. If he had thought more with his brain and less with his body, he would have been a better monarch.
@@asipattle There is a lot of people who question and dispute the STI claims for Henry VIII. I'm thinking of discussing this very topic for my next video, in fact.
Reading the Past that’s a very good idea. When you were talking about Anne of Cleves, I am surprised that you did not mention her relationships with both Mary and Elizabeth. She was popular with both and I believe Elizabeth had memorial stones erected in a couple of her houses, after Anne was dead.
@@asipattle She was certainly granted an honoured position, alongside Elizabeth at Mary's coronation. Something seems to have soured things at some point after this and Anne avoided court - was it faith? Mary's suspicion of Elizabeth? I'm not 100% sure of what I think of this, to be honest.
The very idea that Holbine's portraits were renown for their likeness and accuracy is alone enough to conclude that Anne of Cleves was not ugly. And as others have said, she knew how to thrive in her circumstances. Well done again Dr Kat!
I do believe that Holbein's painting is, at least, relatively accurate based upon a few points. 1. Holbein knows that Henry VIII has a habit of imprisoning and/or executing anyone that displeases him, be they wives, enemies, friends or members of court, so it doesn't make sense that he would deliberately incite Henry's wrath by embellishing Anne's looks, especially given the chance that Anne marries Henry and shows up in England. 2. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so it's quite possible that Holbein thought Anne to be beautiful and truly thought his painting to be a faithful rendition. 3. The very proper and almost austere upbringing Anne had at the Ducal court in Dusseldorf was quite different than court life in England, especially Henry VIII's court, where games, dancing and parties were the norm. Henry's disappointment may have stemmed more from Anne's inexperience with courtly love and flirting, as well as her inability to "play the game" as it is, than with her appearance. In the end, I think that this marriage was doomed from the start. Anne and Henry could not speak each other's language, Anne was not raised in preparation to be an English Queen and the assumed culture shock on both ends was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. Lastly, the one we see taking the fall for this supposed bungle was Thomas Cromwell, not Hans Holbein.
Her intelligence & wisdom saved the day for her. She was from the era where women had no rights over their own lives, and her scheming parents(like countless others) saw power, fame & fortune in possibility of their daughter being married off to a ruler of England. I suspect her "indifference" when presented to Henry saved her a "world of trouble"!
@@dan5660 Anne's parents weren't involved in the marriage negotiations, her brother was as he had inherited the Duchy of Cleves after their father died. Also, the main reason why Cromwell pushed a union with Protestant Cleves was to ensure that Henry did not marry a Catholic and risk England reconciling with the Pope. Anne knew Henry's reputation for discarding and executing wives so it's probably a safe bet to say that her attitude towards him was one of fear, submission and obedience rather than indifference.
Holbein would have lost his head had he been dishonest in his work of Anne. I believe it is accurate, and that she is incredibly beautiful. It is my favorite Holbein portrait from the Tudor court era. She was also a smart young woman, knowing that she had hurt Henry's pride when she didn't recognize him (because he was an idiot), and knew when to bow out. And she kept her head, and then became an incredibly wealthy woman.
She has always been my favorite queen of his. From that portrait, I've found her very pretty, with kind eyes. Overall, I feel that he was SO loud about his displeasure in her out of his own pride and insecurities, so he projected his own insecurities onto her. She was lucky to get out of it alive, truly.
She weighed in on the pros and cons of marrying Henry. Few women would still want to take a chance on marrying a very wealthy man if they new he might want them dead with in 3 years because they didnt give him a son right away. And knowing your going to bed with an obese, diseased, sociopath isn’t the best bed warming feeling i’d think for even the most gold digging woman out their.
Women are still judged these days for their looks and not their talents, sense of humour, hobbies, values etc. Lots of women may be beautiful but they are narcissistic etc inside.
Thank you for this! Your take on Anne is entirely plausible. I do believer that Holbein painted what he saw, and she looks strong and buxom. If Henry liked petite frail women, her stature would have discounted her immediately. Some years back Playboy published a coffeetable book of all the Playmates, complete with measurements. Surprisingly, just about every one of them was on the small side. Apparently Hefner was a lot like Henry.
being academic is quite different from being actually smart. one can have an excellent degree, but that doesn't mean they have much imagination and critical thinking skills. speaking about the queens, we don't really get to know them in real life, so i think this question will not ever be solved. what's the point, anyway, if all of us have our own definition of the word "smart", to start with? XD
@@sofyap3980 My point was that she was intellectually curious and thought for herself. I think these are proven facts about Catherine Parr. She could argue theology with the best of them (Henry included, which got her into trouble as she was leaning protestant while Henry, even though he separated from the Catholic church, was NOT a Protestant) and she was even put in charge as his regent when Henry was away or unable. She also directed the education of her step-children (Elizabeth, Mary, and Edward) and convinced Henry to restore the girls to the line of succession. This, to me, proves she was an intelligent woman. I believe it has also been said that she was also a big influence on Elizabeth when she was a young girl, in establishing her belief that a woman could be strong, capable ruler.
Excellent video! I love Anne of Cleves story, she wasn't a bit ugly. She was a strong, clever, woman who also established a strong relationship with Mary, Elizabeth and Edward.
@@brianrodney712 Brian, I doubt that. I think he was the problem. "A Kell positive father frequently is the cause behind the inability of his partner to bear a healthy infant after the first Kell negative pregnancy, which the authors note is precisely the circumstance experienced with women who had multiple pregnancies by Henry. The majority of individuals within the Kell blood group are Kell negative, so it is the rare Kell positive father that creates reproductive problems." www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110303153114.htm
That has certainly been suggested as an early, if not the earliest, issue they encountered. Henry was also said to have grown frustrated and impatient at the length of time it took for her to arrive in England; so perhaps the seeds of discord we being sewn even earlier?
@@ReadingthePast I was of the impression that they did not share a common language. While Henry spoke French and Latin, Anne of Cleves spoke only her native language, German with a dialect that was difficult to comprehend, even by German speakers.
I think subsequent events showed that Henry was not sexually attracted to her because he liked her as a person After the annulment she was a regular attendee at Henry's Court and they were very friendly with each other. Anne found it better to stay in England, because as her "Brother" Henry was a lot nicer brother than her real one, who would have regarded as useless for marriage alliances [used goods thinking] and probably placed her in a nunnery. Anne is unique amongst Henry's wives as being the only one he got engaged to without knowing her first.
@@ReadingthePast Anne's veneration, almost, of Catherine Howard, her former lady in waiting, indicates a shrewd mind. She knew exactly what she was doing - ugly maybe, but sensible and methinks a lovable woman.
Henry being a king and Anne of Cleve's a princess in her own right made it difficult to use and abuse her. Being from a different country would have cause a diplomatic problem, if he didn't do the right thing and set her free with a pension.
Most reasonable takes I have heard on Anne were that she was pretty but in a hardier kinda way, respectful and a loyal friend. Even Henry grew to enjoy her company. Personally I think Henry was attracted to dramatic women... High spirited, but only when it amused him. Anne's hardiness could even have been a sign she would have been better able to have children, unlike the slight, small type he preferred. Anne was the wife he needed but didn't want
I agree. I think she was too emotionally stable and mature for him. It seems like he wanted hard-to-get, flighty, fun, flirtatious women who liked playing games and making him feel like a masculine conqueror
@@monkiram in other words, easier to dominate. Anne sounds like a strong woman and we know today plenty of men who would prefer a petite woman they can physically dominate to a taller, confident woman. One of my daughters is 5'8" and beautiful. She often doesn't like her height but I think she has a physical advantage in being able to scare off men who want their women more (apparently) vulnerable.
Given King Henry's penchant for executing wives who wandered, he was purposely putting Anne of Cleves in a difficult position by pretending to be a stranger. What if she had flirted with him?
The short version : *man -hits on woman * woman - rejects man * man - “well your ugly anyway “ and throws tantrum. Well played to Anne of Cleaves for escaping her marriage to Henry while at the same time maintaining a good friendship with him , keeping her head and gaining lifelong independence, wealth and the highest ranking ladies at the Tudor court after Henry’s last two wives and his daughters. No one else in Henry’s life was able to achieve this. Even many of his close friends and advisers ended up in the tower . And certainly she fared better than any of his other wives. So well played Anne, Well played 👏
Quite possibly, the cynical part of me thinks that perhaps their later friendship (if that is what it was) had as much to do with her total capitulation to his will, rather than anything she actually offered?
@@ReadingthePast I think that's quite possible. But even if that's all it was, maybe you could say he at least appreciated her smarts in not fighting him, haha. Like another commenter said, Catherine at least could justify being difficult for her daughter's sake. Even if Ann of C had managed to prolong the marriage, if Harry wasn't sleeping with her, prolonging the marriage wouldn't necessarily mean a greater chance of her having a royal child. I think you could say that Henry at least appreciated her ability to "read the room" in a way some of his other wives couldn't.
Henry didn't ignore her. He granted her property, an annuity, and the title, My Lady, The King's Sister. Most accounts suggest they remained good friends, and often played cards together. Beauty is a subjective quality; she came from a land Henry wasn't familiar with, and from a different phenotype. Compared to his other wives, she was altogether fortunate. I think Joss Stone did great portraying her in The Tudors, btw.
Thanks for a great video, I’ve always found that there’s much more to Anne of Cleves story than what is popularity accepted. Personally, I think that Henry’s declaration of “I like her not” can be interpreted as meaning he didn’t like her as a wife or her personality after that initial meeting gone wrong instead of him not liking her looks. I think his declaration would’ve been much more emphatic and obvious if his dislike was based solely on her looks as he clearly wasn’t one for holding back any opinions, so I’d think that his first words after meeting her would’ve been more along the lines of I can’t marry someone who looks like her or she’s hideous, I won’t have her rather than the more ambiguous “I like her not.”
I agree that Holbein's portrait was most likely accurate. And, luckily for Anne of Cleves, I think she was not at all Henry's 'type'. She does have rather strong features and was reportedly tall for a woman. Henry's vanity was such that if he didn't top her by 6 inches or more, I doubt he'd admire her inches because he was used to being the tall person in the room. I think she might be described as Juno-esque. Her willingness to go along with what Henry wanted was not what he looked for in a potential wife--he loved the chase--but that same calm pliability was quite welcome for a sister.
Thank you for this fascinating deep dive into this "mystery woman." I do think her portrait shows a humble woman with attractive looks...not so flashy but very warm and kind looking. Your analysis of the various events which shaped her life bring this unfortunate woman to life. I say unfortunate in that she was placed in the position of marrying the Beast but she was also lucky in that she played her part to ensure her future and survival. Most informative! Children would love History as a topic if more history teachers were as invested and entertaining as you.
Whoop! Cleves is my second favourite of Henry's wives, I love her story! And I've always hated Starkey's sexist thesis that she was snubbed and abandoned, when in fact she was a survivor, and lived peacefully, single in style #goals. This was a cracking video Kat.
Thank you, I'm so glad you enjoyed. Anne of Cleves is ace as far as I'm concerned. I also take issue with Starkey's assessment of women's history (not to mention female historians); his misogyny is infuriating!
Reading the Past haha and I thought I was the only one who thought that! Misogyny went out along time ago. He needs to get with the times! On a serious note: In the movie series “The Tudors”, Henry visited Anne of Cleves whilst married to Catherine Howard and even slept with her (in the series). Do you think they eventually “got down to business” so to speak or just remained “brother/Sister” and just friends??? I hear another video idea 💡 “Did Henry VIII sleep with Anne of Cleves after they were divorced?”
Of all his wives, I would have loved to have met Katharine of Aragon and Anne. Anne survived and thrived! Her records show she loved fine food and games, was loved by her servants...she sounds fun!
First: absolutely love the way you explain history, like telling stories. You are fabulous! Second: i'm curious about the history of Anne of Cleves from a Cleves point of view? Was she a failure to them since she was divorced? Was she a hero as she got out of the marriage alive? Or was she sent to England and immediately forgotten?
Maybe Henry couldn't perform anymore and blamed Anne in his shame. He had no kids after Edward and had health issues. No kids with Katherine Howard or Katherine Parr. Katherine Parr had a child with her husband soon after Henry.
Funnily enough Catherine Parr was considered to be barren when she married Henry having already had two husbands without children, so Henry had given up hopes of more children by then.
Katherine Howard should have been very fertile, and he adored her. They were married long enough that she should have conceived easily if he was still fertile.
Your reference about Anne is on the money. There is no way the portrait would be too dissimilar to the actual Anne as Hans would lose his head as many ministers of Henry did. The term “she’s a horse” may reflect her physical size which is not shown in the portrait. He may have been intimidated by a large woman from Germany personally and sexually.
Large he was 6'3 and over 200lbs, I know Germanic women can be slightly taller than your average Western European especially the French but a horse. He was embarrassed, it is typical narcissist behvaiour todemean someone who does not agree with you.
I didn't know she'd had a place of prominence at court, even after Henry's death. That is an amazing testimony to her. Also, how did she manage her feelings toward Katherine Howard? She must have been an emotional genius.
I think she was not emotionally attached to him & counted herself blessed. A wise woman not to get caught up in precedence & court politics. Maybe she felt sorry for the girl, knowing what she was in for.
Well done. I've always been fascinated with Anne of Cleves, and agree that there's no way Henry would have forgiven Holbein (or let him live, frankly) if his portrait of her had been inaccurate. I also can't help but think that Henry must have regretted casting her aside for poor, empty-headed Katherine Howard. Anne's easy-going manner and ability to adapt saved her life, for sure.
I don't know if I would have considered Katherine Howard empty headed as just being very girlishly young,she was only 16 and her education would have been limited to what a normal noble woman would need,her cousin Anne Bolyen was fortunate to be educated in France a more worldly country at the time and more liberal in how noble woman were educated.
I find it interesting that centuries later, we're asking if Anne of Cleves was too ugly for Henry VIII, but in fact, maybe the reason she gave into the annulment so easily, is that HE was too ugly for her.
he did have a festering wound at that point if I remember correctly .. so I wouldn't be surprised if she was put off by him
I'm sure she was quite relieved to be rid of him.
Yes! This is what I have always thought! Since she seemed to have no idea about sex either she was probably like yeah I am happy to be alone. I can’t imagine how badly his wound smelled?!?! She has become my favorite wife!
I agree. I would have been so happy not to sleep with this fat smelly self-centered man again. She had it all without having to sleep and be intimate with his awful body.
Not only that he was ugly, his mood changes were extreme and dangerous, if he didn't get what he wanted, you were death or at least in jail. The only thing that she lost in that divorce was a public face, but she gained freedom, riches, self respect and control over her life
She got houses and money and independence at a time when that was not an option. She no longer had to cater to that mess of a man. She WON.
Amen..lol
I love her!! She was smart as a whip and got everything she wanted plus her freedom!!!
@@jwkittles 10
Henry had nerve he was 400 pounds with a leg sore of puss that smelled 🤮
Bingo
She was the luckiest. The pressure of being Henry’s wife: living in fear of displeasing him, dealing with his toxic temper and bad hygiene but not being able to complain , the pressure of having to produce a male baby (which she has no control over), and potentially dying in childbirth...instead she got a comfortable, wealthy life. Good for her!
Not the luckiest, just the smartest. She knew how to quit when she was ahead.
@n/a explaining the fact that you’re so insecure in your beliefs and opinions that you have to resort to name calling for anyone who doesn’t agree with you? Is that what you want me to explain? 😂
@n/a Dang, ya got me. 😂
@n/a luck means you have no control over the situation. Anne of Cleves could’ve fought things like Catherine of Aragon did. You wanna talk lucky, talk Jane Seymour. She died before she could piss him off.
True!!
In the whole sorry Tudor saga it was Anne of Cleves who emerged the clear winner. Surrounded by comfort, for the rest of her life she was free to live as she chose... a very smart woman indeed.
Well, except that Edward-- or rather his regents-- turfed her out of Bletchingly Castle after Henry's death. She got on better with Mary, especially since Anne was willing to convert to Catholicism. Anne was good at adapting to changed circumstances.
I hope she secretly had a lover.
@@nancyprawdzik8348 While watching "The Tudors", I was hoping she'd become involved with Charles Brandon (Henry Cavill)
Edward's reign was bankrupt, so she didn't get the allowance Henry decreed for her and was forced to live in less than ideal conditions.
Good post, very true. She was the survivor.
i feel like that situation was the 16th century version of a guy hitting on a girl, then when they’re rejected saying that she “was ugly anyway”.
Sour grapes I think.
Good one.
To quote the former guy: « She was not my type anyway. »
More like assaulting! Can you imagine being grabbed and kissed by a random stranger? Ugh!
Her face is not unattractive but what Holbein cleverly did was hide the rest of her body beneath the voluminous sleeves of the gown.
A tale as old as time.
Henry, "Aye baby, lemme get them digits."
Anne, "Ew."
Henry, "YOU UGLY ANYWAY!"
😂😂😂yes!
Fortune smiled on her. Didn’t have to sleep with him, got land, titles, position and money out of it. Also something much more elusive for woman back then; independence and freedom to be her own person (as much as anyone could then).
Madalynn knapp video
And she got to keep her head!
@@karisuzanne4382 the BEST part! LOL!
MaryAnne Astor AND! Her head got to stay on her neck! She seems to have made out the best of all of them right??
She made that fortune by not being the ninny the English ladies were. She was an intelligent and practical Germanic woman and turned her lemon into delicious lemonade.
She likely found him unattractive, but in proper insecure male fashion, he turned things around and made it sound as if she was the unattractive one.
Laurie L history repeats itself 😂 a man is still a man no matter the era 😂
Bingo
That's how I think it went down. An older, fat man in disguise tried to flirt with her, she didn't know the court custom and was like 'eww' and he got salty.
I think the same. Henry was hardly the most gorgeous looking by then
@@kathleen5237 Henry was fat and middle-aged. He wasn't the best looking
Love the shade - 'there was someone smelly, fat and not a virgin in the bed but it wasn't Anne.' LOL!
👍👍👍
Ooooooohhhhh!!!!!!1 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Muffled Laughter.
She loved her life post-Henry, and he was so relieved that she didn’t fight the annulment that he gave her properties, an income, access to court, and the freedom to live her life as she pleased. She outlived Henry himself, as well as all his last wife, Kathryn Parr.
A life well lived!
What we hear of history and what actually happened may be more than two different things. Being the narcissist that he was, he may have realized she had a mind of her own, and he wouldn’t be able to direct her life like he wanted to. His way of getting out of a challenging marriage was to put the blame of several things on her, making her the “bad guy.” He felt guilty, thus offering her so much to make up for his actions and making him look like the very generous guy. Now everyone would think well of him and he could hold his head up high. Now he could marry again to someone he could have more influence over in that marriage. In actuality, he lost the person who may have helped him become the great King he aspired to be. History could have been different!!!!
@@dolorespetersen2869
Ditto!
Henry was possibly very relieved Anne didn't give him away, if he could not consumate the marriage.
@@dolorespetersen2869 Hey, stop talking about El Presidente like that! ;-)
@@bargainbassist so sorry if I offended anyone!
If Henry VIII was alive today, he’d be sliding into random women’s DM’s and telling them they’re ugly, after haplessly hitting on them, to no avail.
LOL. Your projection is almost painful to see.
lol if Henry were alive today, he be diagnosed with CTE after his jousting incident and been medicated so he would never have left Catherine in the first place lol
😂😂 you are so right! That made me spit coke out of my nose!
@@ChieftainHawke didn't the accident happen when he was married to Anne Boleyn?
Ha! So true.
Whenever I see the picture of Anne of Cleves I never understand how he could think she was so ugly. I think she looks quite beautiful.
The issue is he chose her because she looked beautiful in the painting. Then he claimed to be the first instagram filter victim.
I agree beautiful inside and oit6
@@usagi18 I wonder if Holbein got into trouble over this 'innacurate' painting.
@@a.t.c.3862 He didn't. He continued being in Henry's court.
@@fannishfanning160 That's so intriguing.... as Dr Kat says, it could be a combination of reasons, either way Cleves played her hand well.
She rejected him at first sight. He was embarrassed so then rejected her.
Anne of Cleves: The Lucky One.
Anne of Cleves: GUYS I HAVE THE PLAGUE.
Lol, just kidding. My life's _AMAZING._
@@TheCaliMack im surprised not to find more six fans in this comment section lol 😂
👍
and SMART...
She was very smart...maybe that was also an issue with His Vanity-ness.
Henry got offended when Anne rejected his advances as he was in disguise and his little ego couldn't handle it.
Bingo. She didn't follow the script in his head and he felt slighted, or even embarrassed.
I don't think she was ignorant of how babies happen either. I think this was a canny woman. As soon as she was offered an annulment, she took it, and she was set for life.
And the fact what Henry did was an English folktale, when she was German, meaning she may have not known what his advances meant
He was also pretty gross by this point. I really don't blame her. Not a great track record with his wives or children terrible personality and very likely to behead you. Not exactly medieval Fabio.
Yep that’s all it was. Embarrassment that made him say hideous things to save his ego.
He looked liked Java the HUT at that point and smelled like puss. . You wonder why any woman would want to sleep with him.
She was lovely, she got lucky to get away
No kidding she was a luckiest of the bunch. She didn't have to sleep with that pig and worry about getting killed
She was likely very shrewd/wise.
She also was from abroad, not a born english woman, which might have contributed to her staying alive.
And she immediately agreed to Henry`s demands, which might also have contributed to her keeping her head.
True.
@?,?, yes, but in comfort and peace, away from Henry. Going home would gave been a humiliation.
She wasn't only clever and probably beautiful, she also had a very pleasant character.
She was on good terms with all of Henry's children, especially the princesses Mary and Elizabeth, and in her will she not only thought of friends and family, but also provided for all her servants.
wow! unheard of. she rocks.
She seems attractive and of all the wives quite clever. She let the little temper tantrum child go, agreed with his demands and lived to tell the tale and even thrived. So good on her.
So he disguised himself and kissed her. Wouldn't anyone feel uncomfortable being kissed like that by a stranger?
Specially since he was a 300+ pound bald ass
I wouldn't be keen!
It was customary in England, according to Erasmus, for women to greet and be greeted by kissing on the mouth, considered a shocking practice by the rest of Europe. The only foreign woman Henry knew well was Catherine of Aragon, who had been in England for a decade when they married. And EVERY English woman at court knew that no matter how old, fat, and smelly the King got, you always pretended like you were swooning with desire, and NEVER admitted you recognized him when he went in disguise. The thing I dont understand is why no one gave Anne a heads up? Surely they could have sent someone who spoke German to tell her how to behave when she met him? Or maybe, like Henry, they were so used to how things were at court that they didnt think of it either. I also wonder if the "foul smells" he said came off of her were his own wound smells heightened and released from the exertion of trying that first night.
I don't think anybody had ever told Henry that the good looks he had as a youth had faded and that he really was just a fat old man with a never healing festering wound. He probably was deluded enough to believe she would be pleased. Also English traditions that basically had a thing about lovers coming in disguise to woo. I guess Henry figured she would recognise him instantly as her love and give in, despite never having seen the king before.
@@MissCaraMint Nobody would have dared. We say "heads will roll" today, but in those days they meant it.
I don’t think Henry ever loved anyone, he was a selfish, monstrous man. No man would happily murder 2 women in cold blood. I think Anne of Cleves had a lucky escape.
Before his (probable) TBI and subsequent personality change, he had a good relationship with his first wife in their early marriage, many male friends, and a court that considered him generous and good-natured. He was capable of affection, though perhaps not other-focussed enough to be a true and healthy love. In his later years, he was, as you say, selfish and monstrous. I think the scary part of it all is that he changed; good king Hal became the Tyrant Henry, and the implications of such a mutable self are sobering.
K R he simply could not comprehend what the word “no” meant. He had been an absolute ruler with nobody to check him since he was a teenager. His mindset was not one that we can even imagine.
Only Jane Seymour and probably only because she died before he could kill her.
He banned his first wife (Katherine of Aragon) from the court, she died alone without her own daughter and almost in poverty.
He murdered his second wife and destroyed her and her family reputation without sufficient evidence.
I'm not sure about this, but I've read he threatened Jane saying to her "remember what happened to Anne for meddling in my affairs".
He rejected and humiliated Anne of cleves saying she was 'ugly', 'fat' and 'old'.
He murdered Katherine Howard.
He threatened and almost Imprisoned Katherine Parr for her religious beliefs, if she hadn't apologized and 'changed' her mind, he would have executed her and probably married her friend (another woman called Katherine, I don't remember her last name)
He was a selfish beast, I think he didn't love any of his wives
Head injuries tend to change personalities.
I think it was after his jousting accident, that he became that horrid, murderess King.
Imagine how shocked & scared she must have been at their first meeting... she was on her way to marry a guy she never meets before, in a foreign country with a foreign language... and then an elderly, sickly, random man is kissing her...
As an artist I can only imagine how dangerous it would have been for Holbein to produce anything less than an entirely accurate portrait of Anne of Cleves from the beginning. He was an immensely talented artist and I feel her portrait is accurate. Having Henry as a patron would have been a nightmare! I think she was pretty. She and Katherine Parr were very fortunate women because they were able to work with a desperate and dangerous man and survive.
@Blue Skies OMG! I was thinking just that. Trump and Henry the 8th would've and could've been brothers.
Katherine Parr had to back down and intercede to stop herself being arrested for heresy - she and Anne of Cleeves both read the room and did the best thing they could in their situations which is why they survived. Anne survived them all as she didn't fall for a waster like Thomas Seymour.
@@LadyCoyKoi Had the same thought while I was watching! Except I thought it might have been Boris Johnson... talking the talk without being able to walk the walk, and being too much of a shit to own up to his own faults.
@Blue Skies oh for lords sakes. MAGA 2020
The only thing he didn't portray was her scars. She was regarded as attractive by everyone else.
She was definitely the most intelligent of all his wives. She knew how to survive in a world ruled by a misogynistic narcissist. And she never had to sleep with him. She has always been my favourite.
Well that lacks some needed info:
The one I call "martyr" Queen Catherine Howard is my favourite. The tyrant rat was in his 50s and bc of an accident (plus poor hygiene back then) henry couldn't get it hard anymore; Howard (age 18) waited for him to have erections a whole year but nothing happened. She ran into Culpeper and they were spotted making out in the shadows, witness went to henry with the gossip trying to get compensation from him and he invented a bs crime "treason" which even Howard's uncle approved (!!!) So Queen Howard, who was Queen boleyn's cousin and still in her teens, would be murdered as the other lady was. Few months in the dungeon (traitor's gate if you know the castle) and a cold morning of February she offered her neck to the bloody hit man
Queen Howard is my favourite and I hope henry VIII got what he deserved bc henry claimed to be the representative of God on earth, but if he was even a little familiar with the Bible he would have done what King Xerxes did to get Queen Esther (another late teens woman) as wife and in bed with him. This king did not kill any females and got his lady to love him
The last one (Catherine Parr) was quite clever as well.
Can't really say she was the most intelligent but possibly the most fortunate. The choices and fates of the others doesn't come down to intelligence.
As for not sleeping with him, she actually did but just didn't have to go very far in terms of intimacy
@@Shane-Flanagan exactly!! Very well said.
He may have divorced me but I outlived him and all his wives, I gave into the annulment so easily cause I didn’t want to marry him in the first place, he was pretty fat and ugly. Also, up here in heaven I can’t seem to find him... 🤭
Thanks for clearing that up Anne.🤗♥️
woah woah TH-cam in heaven count me in!
LOL!!!!
Whenever I think of Anne I think of Joss Stone, so in my mind, she’s beautiful. Anne was my favorite of Henry’s wives, she turned lemons to lemonade and that’s not nothing!
Love this take!
Yes, she lucked out better than all the rest, if you ask me. I admire her!
Oh, I love Joss Stone as Anne, she was brilliant.
Andi you said Joss Stone! Boing!
I do too!
Henry wasn’t very attractive himself. Anne was lucky he wasn’t interested in her. A blessing in disguise.
Henry was attractive . The sources describe him as a very handsome prince (before he gained weight).
@@millag93 He'd lost his looks by the time he met Anne of Cleves, though
She was revolted by him and he consequently was intimidated
@@millag93 That was before he fell on his head during a tournament
By the time they met, he was positively gross.
I mean Holbin must of been honest enough considering that Henry kept him around with no punishment.
If the painting didn't look like her, how did he know who to kiss
It would've been incredibly obvious who was the Princess.
erm someone told him who she was?
Also, after seeing her and noticing how 'ugly' she was, why did he insist on kissing her? Why not abort mission?
You make a valid point
@@joyadero8590 abort mission? what on earth are you talking about? It wasn't the space age you idiot.
Finally, someone who looks at Anne of Cleves with a clear eye!
Exactly
Perhaps Elizabeth learned a thing or two from Anne's intelligent decisions.
It was also said that Anna had a rivalry with Catherine Parr due to religious disagreements and Anna was probably jealous of how close Parr to Elizabeth.
With how badly Katherine and Anne were treated, Anne of Cleves knew she was better off just agreeing to the annulment.
Yall are crazy henry was a horn dog and treated his women terrible. Men actually control whether a child is a man. Henry was a terrible person and a terrible king. I don't understand how you can support him.
@Elizabeth Frantesyou should try harder to hide your hideous temperament?
Elizabeth Frantes Katherine had many children and one survived to adulthood. She also marshalled the English army as regent to defeat the invading Scots while Henry was busy losing jousts to Frances 1. After she refused to agree to have her marriage declared invalid and her daughter a bastard, Henry locked her away and kept her half starved. She and her daughter did not see one another ever again. Her daughter, the Princess Mary, was forced to be servant to Anne Boleyn’s child and Anne herself, put in writing that she should be beaten if she did not act with ‘enough servility’. If she was turned into the harridan you say she was, it wasn’t her mother who did it to her.
@@susanc4622 , a Cardinal from Rome begged Katherine of Aragon to divorce Henry to become a nun. That way, the marriage would have not been declared invalid nor Mary a bastard. Katherine refused, saying she was meant to be a wife. She was too stubborn. Henry was determined to replace her with another wife to give him that son he longed for. She was Mary's mother. Had she done her duty by her daughter, she would have agreed to enter a convent after she was sure her daughter was properly married. Too bad someone with a good insight into genetics reminded her how sickly the Tudor men were and that, even though Henry was relatively healthy, he was an anomaly and any son would not live long enough to reproduce. Not only did Prince Edward die young and childless, so did his bastard son, Henry Fitzroy (by Bessie Blount). Mary and her issue would have ascended the throne of a united, Catholic England. Katherine by her stubbornness and short-sightedness, kept her own daughter from what Mary yearned for; children and a Catholic country. What a pity!
@Elizabeth Frantes Ahem... "turned her daughter" "her one job was to have children, and she didn't do her job." The only problem was, that she didn't get a son.
But really, she was the daughter of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castille and aunt to King Charles (Emperor Charles V). Like Anne of Cleves, she was not originally a subject of Henry's. So, the annulment alone was already putting a strain on Anglo-Spanish relations...
As her portrait reveals, Anne was actually attractive. Hans Holbein, one of the most talented and realistic painters ever, had no reason to depict her other than she really looked, and besides, he would never have dared to deceive Henry. Henry was simply angered by Anne's less than enthusiastic reception when SHE actually met HIM, and his ego was bruised. Moreover, Anne was not really Henry's type. She was tall, well built and blonde, and Henry preferred petite brunettes and redheads. (Her portrait concealed all these attributes). Anne spoke only German, which Henry did not understand, and her only talent was sewing. Henry's women were well educated, and were able to dance, sing, and play instruments. Finally, when it was announced that Henry was marrying Catherine Parr, many people were surprised, saying that she was not as pretty as was Anne.
atlantic1119 Catherine of Aragon was blonde!
Amber Wilson Catherine of Aragon was more of a strawberry blonde as red hair ran in her family
I think if contemporaries were just commenting on how beautiful they were this might have been true. But what we are really think about is sexually attractive which is not the same thing. Anne of Cleaves seems to have been innocent and not attracted to Henry meaning she wasn’t able to attract him. Meanwhile Cathrine Parr was sexual, experienced and, let’s face it, banged like a shithouse door in a gale.
@@davidwright7193 Also her mother was fanatically catholic. Anne probably never even heard about sex before.
@@davidwright7193 I do hope you mean Katherine Howard not Parr
Far from being the dumped ugly duckling as history would have us believe, Anne was indeed a true survivor. Had Henry have been so repulsed by her, he would undoubtedly have had her banished far from court. It is impossible to imagine that a man so utterly ruthless would have felt the least bit guilty for so doing. I believe her that it was her undoubted displeasure at the manner of her first meeting with Henry that sealed her fate. Henry was a proud man, his ego as large as his waistline would have been crushed by Anne’s disdain at being manhandled by an unknown and slightly repulsive older man. Her ability, indeed the brilliance she showed in turning this into the life she would come to enjoy proves that she was a woman of very many talents. To have survived Henry was a major achievement, for him to bestow her with the title of “sister to the King,” demonstrates that she was far from being “not to his liking.”
Anne was probably more relieved by the annulment than was Henry. Prime historic example of a mutually desirable separation.
I can certainly see that being the case!
Yeah it’s very rare, specially from my experience. I wish it was this way with the girl I love, if she’s not gonna love me back then I wish I had never had feelings for her to begin with, and had something more like this instead.
Weird he would have kissed her first and then exclaimed be doesn't like her? I think when he saw repulsion on her face he had to do something to save his face
The expression is "save face" not save his face, lol.
HotCrazyCatLady Me but you know what they meant so what was the point of that lol
Dresses up at a beggar, forces himself on her without permission, gets butthurt when she doesn't fall at his feet in adoration.
@@gomezk1493 Yes, God forbid you correct someone and help them improve.
@@v-town1980 when I type phrases they can be changed by auto correct easily nobody needs to clarify what we all already understand
I always thought she was the most beautiful.
Yes! She was.
Re Hans Holbein, what really established his reputation as a painter was that his portraits were known to be very accurate and that he didn't like to flatter his subjects - not to mention that he didn't suffer any consequences for not providing Henry VIII with an accurate depiction. So I think this portrait of Anne of Cleves is probably accurate to what she looked like.
I think so too.
One of his sketches of a nobleman Holbein apparently didn’t care for has a margin note “The eyes, a bit yellow” and depicts a very unpleasant looking man. I think Holbein had a way of being honest.
In an art history class I had many decades ago, it was pointed out how dazzling the clothing is that Anne is wearing. It is what draws you in more than her actual face. I don't agree that her appearance was "beautiful" but I think she had an average looking face. I did not know that she was tall and big boned for a woman of that period. I imagine those aspects were not appealing to Henry. However, I have always felt she was by far the most fortunate of his wives. She survived, prospered, and apparently was popular at court.
@@makeittrue I read that she was totally the oposite of what he liked: tall, big breasted, not an English rose. Also, there is that small little detail of Ann failing to recognize the King and him been unable to heal his wounded baby ego
@@makeittrue She has a lovely face. Her nose is a bit longish, but could be compared to actress Cate Blanchett today. Tall, a bit raw-boned, strong face, not a classic beauty but definitely a striking woman whose intelligence makes her face glow.
If it were “overly kind” he would have given her a paler complexion, thinner brows, thinner/ paler lips, slimmer/ paler hands, etc etc etc. She was not the perfect example of what was considered beautiful back then but if she were uglier than that picture than he would have done the things I’d listed above. She was a tall, beautiful woman with boundaries and that just seems to not be the taste of self important tyrannical men 🤷♂️
James ooohh was she not sufficiently shorter than Harry?problem there?
The fashion of Anne’s home country were much different to England’s, so she wasn’t presented in a manner to tittilate a fat, old man. Impotence!
@Nenethegreat W Oh, those eyebrows these days... What is wrong with these women? As if they're trying to look like the missing link between us and Neanderthals
@@jandrews6254 Henry was taller than 98% of the men of the time period at 6'2. dont let showtime fool you into thinking he was average height.
Anne was actually considered pretty by most people. Not as beautiful as her sister. Henry and Anne ironically grew close after the annulment. He clearly developed a fancy for her and rumours of an affair sparked. Heer portrait was said to have been mostly accurate except for a few smallpox scars on her face. So Anne was regarded as attractive for the time. His ego was hurt by her, he rejected her as a defence mechanism. Projecting his insecurity onto her.
Nenethegreat W sus you just sound mad you look more like Henry than a woman
When I was much younger and learned Henry had 6 wives, I looked up their portraits. When I saw Anne of Cleves, I remember thinking how beautiful, young and healthy she looked. I starrd at that portrait for so long trying to understand why anyone would think she was ugly, much less have the audacity to say it. Henry's royal ego was bruised and he had to make himself feel better about being rejected but even he knew she had done no harm or else he'd have cut her head off too and just been done with her.
I don't think she was "fashionably attractive" in the standards of the time. Today I think she would be considered very attractive.
@@nobodysbaby5048yep. She looks like Sophie Turner. Only Henry described her as unattractive. Others always said she was attractive but not as much as her sister. Apparently the portrait did look like her but it didn't show Anne's facial scars from disease. Their beauty standards were different. I never saw a portrait of Henry that I thought he was handsome in, even in his youth. He always looked slightly below average in the face to me. Katherine of Aragon was considered gorgeous for the time. But all her portraits look like different women to me and I don't see an exceptionally beautiful woman in any. Anne of Cleves was the most attractive based on her portrait and would likely be considered the most attractive in todays society. In reality Henry rejected Anne because she was not impressed with his looks at all. When he diguised himself as soneone else to greet her, she wasn't impressed. That is the main reason he 'rejected her, a bruised ego. He became close to her after the annulment and appeared to find her attractive. So much so it was rumoured they were lovers and that he might remarry her.
She was certainly not ugly. She was lucky to escape his grasp.
Yes she was.........lucky lady!
I always thought she was the prettiest and most clever of his wives. And she kept her head and lived in comfort.
I think, Anne was very pretty and charming
I’ve been reading and researching English royalty for many years and the Tudor dynasty is the most fascinating to me. After enjoying hundreds of books on the subject of his wives, I think that she was intelligent, personable, kind, and smart enough to foresee her future if she didn’t cooperate. And what did she have to lose by acquiescing to the annulment-absolutely nothing? At worst she continued to survive, even if it was away from court. In reality, she had a comfortable and respectable life where she was included as part of the Tudor family. I believe she was the luckiest wife of all. Far better to be Henry’s beloved “sister” than a wife. I’m a new subscriber from NJ, USA and am so glad to have found your channel.
It seemed Anne of Cleves was quite likeable at court and regarded with respect.
Henry invited her to many court events and referred to her as a beloved sister. She was so intelligent to take the money and run. She had enough income and a household of her own for the rest of her life.
I still think she was the one that wasn't impressed with Henry and Henry called her ugly in order to protect his own pride 💁 I hardly think she was ugly, I think she was just too much for Henry's pride to deal with!
She was not good in bed, Henry lost interest.
@@jerrycohencohen8901 He wasn't with her in the bed in the first place, though...
I wouldn't be surprised if she found him unattractive too, he had a festering, nasty smelling wound and was *very* overweight
She didn't know anything about bed no one taught her. She probably remained blissfully ignorant her whole life.
@@EmoBearRights that's a valid point...
Big yikes, in modern standards a random guy or person kissing you out of nowhere would freak out anyone. This would be an equivalent to an r/niceguy situation.
Cleves is my favorite out of the six wives simply because she seems like such a normal, nice person, and it's honestly kind of gratifying to see someone like that come out "on top" in such a strange and ridiculous situation.
Anne of Cleves clearly got the better end of the stick. Henry was a most undesirable personality by this stage. Just awful really.
Makes me think of Trump.
And smelly.
@@debm-r6318, yeah because Trump has people beheaded at the slightest whim....
@@andreawaibel3584 no - he is much more efficient. Ignore Corona and let people fend for themselves and die. How many dead in the states my dear? Henry didnt kill that many people.
Maybe not beheading, but he does have a penchant for firing all of his staff
She lived her best life after the annulment. No strict controlling parents, no strict controlling husband. Just an easy life in the countryside with plenty of money.
I think she was the luckiest of all of his wives
She got a castle of Richmond and some riches as divorce settlement so I'd say Ja 😁
This was so informative. Anne boleyn usually gets all the attention from academics and scholars. Ann of cleaves must have been mentally strong and capable to manoeuvre her way round the english court and king.
Having looked closely at the pictures of all his wives, I feel she was actually the best looking one. Even more so with her boundaries and morals.
I would have loved to meet her.
I agree, her portrait is the most attractive (and well done) of all the portraits of his wives. I don’t feel Hans Holbein did make her look better than she did in life.
Out of all the portraits of Henry’s wives, Anne of Cleaves is the only one I can imagine how she looked in person. Can’t quite do that with the others.
And Katarine of Aragon.
Agreed. Funny how that portrait, despite this portrait being dismissed as a 16th century 'catfish', is probably the most accurate depiction of what one of Henry's wives looked like we have.
No way
Queen Howard was recently reconstructed by computer and she bears a resemblance to Taylor Swift when she looks cute
Plus she was 19 so natural splendour
Thank you so much for this video! I’m actually an interpreter who lives in Cleves and I can assure you: no one here has ever forgotten her! Her portrait by Holbein is all over the place.
Thank you for sharing. I think that is wonderful.
Cool! Did her father actually have mental illness issues or did her brother make that up so he could take over?
Holbein was a great painter. He didn't need to betray.
I'm from the U.S and American school kids are often taught that Henry was disappointed with Anne of Cleves because he thought she was ugly. But if that famous portrait of Anne is accurate, I think she's actually quite pretty and would be even more so in modern hair and make up.
I always think of Anne of Cleves as the "one who got away". She was very pragmatic; she realised that nothing could be gained by going against the King but much could be gained by giving him his way. The portrait is wonderful, she looks, if not beautiful, then full of quiet charm. I think she was not showy enough for the King; he wanted a pretty, giggling fool who would adore him unquestioningly.
I love how you defended Anne! So wonderful! Can you imagine her thoughts if she were to have known people would be more fascinated with her for centuries as the mysterious lady who evaded being the Queen of a King you couldn't trust!?
Obviously, Anne of Cleves couldn’t be too bad looking or the initial discussions for the marriage with Henry VIII would have never gotten off the ground.
Cromwell also approved of it. She was in her early twenties at the time.
Well….. the issue was that only one or two people had seen her, and not Henry.
I remember being 9 and seeing the wives of Henry in a book designed to look like the diary of Elizabeth I . I thought she was easily the most beautiful out of all them from her dress to her pleasant composure. To find out that he thought she was ugly was laughable it was then that I knew he was a nut.
Is this the Royal Diaries series?? I absolutely loved that book and read it so many times and memorized all of Henry's 6 wives as a kid and I've always been so interested in the Tudor era ever since haha
lol how would you know what she looks like. Its said Hans portrait was not accurate as he was told to make her look better. Henry got catfished, thats why he was pissed. his ministers made her sound like a supermodel and she was plain. had it not been for high expectations of her looks, he would not have cared. if he were a nut, he wouldve had her killed like Anne and katherine 2
@@ChieftainHawke you must not apply your own logic to your self.
Unless your were there then by all means continue.🙃
Ashley lol thats why he killed his minister, because he lied and told Hans to make her look more beautiful than she actually was lol
@@ChieftainHawke There's no definitive proof that Holbein the younger painted her in a more favorable light to the extent that she was not reminiscent to her portrait. Throughout his career he was known to create the likenesses of his clients very accurately. Of course certain liberties could be taken as one could see with his portrait of Henry which is clearly giving an air of propaganda just by the sheer size of the painting. However, during this time of Henry's search for his next wife , Hans had painted a few portraits of potentials,none of the other works have come under scrutiny as being deceitful or a misrepresentation. Lastly, given Henry's attitude at this time and his penchant for killing people on whims its fair to say that Hans as the official court painter (employed by Henry and a large contributor to not only painting people at court but also adding to the architecture and designs for jewelry) would not jeopardize his livelihood nor his life just to paint a women beyond recognition who had no control over his future. The motive simply isn't there and his resume speaks otherwise. Frankly, to even consider that she could have been "ugly" is ridiculous 🙄
I always figured that Holbein's other portraits were always vividly accurate, and I never saw any reason why Anne of Cleves' should be any different. So yes, I agree with what you've said here. Thank you for doing these videos.
She was Henry's most successful wife and the one I admire the most. She knew to get out while the getting was good.
I'd say the biggest success was Anne Boleyn, as without her there would be no Elizabeth. She was very cunning as well.
But Anne of Cleves was the luckiest one, with better understanding of survival among noble men imo.
Jin the banana from the left but that’s not a success for Boleyn, since she never saw her daughter on the throne
Henry's ego at her initial, though unknowing, rejection of him, never recovered. What a sad little man.
Little!!!
I learned something new today because I didn’t know Anne was actually from Kleve, a city near my hometown. Thank you!
Well done!
I think Anne of Cleves is the best looking of Henry’s wives.
Based on the portraits, yes!
I completely agree based on the portraits of them.
@@becky7973 Actually it was Anne Boleyn who was the real beauty. Too bad some of that didn't rub off on her daughter.
meredith mericle actually she wasn’t very good looking but she was pleasant to look at. Her sister was reported to actually be more good looking than her but Anne made up for it by being very smart and charming
@@noah0645 From every document I've heard she had a "unique" beauty. Not the type that fit the beauty standards of that time, but beautiful nonetheless.
Given her generous build, she would probably have been the one woman who could have given him a healthy son.
If he was capable, that is!
Reading the Past he probably could have done-if she could stand both his weight on her body and the smell of his infected leg. I know he had picked up a venerial disease, but it had obviously not rendered him sterile. He was a fool not to take an obviously physically robust, sexually healthy woman to his bed. Though obviously an intelligent person, he was an idiot when it came to choosing a queen. I’m afraid that he was led by his dick. If he had thought more with his brain and less with his body, he would have been a better monarch.
@@asipattle There is a lot of people who question and dispute the STI claims for Henry VIII. I'm thinking of discussing this very topic for my next video, in fact.
Reading the Past that’s a very good idea. When you were talking about Anne of Cleves, I am surprised that you did not mention her relationships with both Mary and Elizabeth. She was popular with both and I believe Elizabeth had memorial stones erected in a couple of her houses, after Anne was dead.
@@asipattle She was certainly granted an honoured position, alongside Elizabeth at Mary's coronation. Something seems to have soured things at some point after this and Anne avoided court - was it faith? Mary's suspicion of Elizabeth? I'm not 100% sure of what I think of this, to be honest.
The very idea that Holbine's portraits were renown for their likeness and accuracy is alone enough to conclude that Anne of Cleves was not ugly. And as others have said, she knew how to thrive in her circumstances. Well done again Dr Kat!
She is my favorite wife. She played her role well and had a wonderful life, was independent, wealthy, and wise. Kudos to her.
I wish someone would make a movie featuring this particular wife of Henry VIII ... she sounds like a fascinating woman!!
I do believe that Holbein's painting is, at least, relatively accurate based upon a few points.
1. Holbein knows that Henry VIII has a habit of imprisoning and/or executing anyone that displeases him, be they wives, enemies, friends or members of court, so it doesn't make sense that he would deliberately incite Henry's wrath by embellishing Anne's looks, especially given the chance that Anne marries Henry and shows up in England.
2. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so it's quite possible that Holbein thought Anne to be beautiful and truly thought his painting to be a faithful rendition.
3. The very proper and almost austere upbringing Anne had at the Ducal court in Dusseldorf was quite different than court life in England, especially Henry VIII's court, where games, dancing and parties were the norm. Henry's disappointment may have stemmed more from Anne's inexperience with courtly love and flirting, as well as her inability to "play the game" as it is, than with her appearance.
In the end, I think that this marriage was doomed from the start. Anne and Henry could not speak each other's language, Anne was not raised in preparation to be an English Queen and the assumed culture shock on both ends was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. Lastly, the one we see taking the fall for this supposed bungle was Thomas Cromwell, not Hans Holbein.
Her intelligence & wisdom saved the day for her. She was from the era where women had no rights over their own lives, and her scheming parents(like countless others) saw power, fame & fortune in possibility of their daughter being married off to a ruler of England. I suspect her "indifference" when presented to Henry saved her a "world of trouble"!
W
Very good observations @CaraM I've read several books on Henry VIII and his wives and I would agree with you on all points.
@@dan5660 Anne's parents weren't involved in the marriage negotiations, her brother was as he had inherited the Duchy of Cleves after their father died. Also, the main reason why Cromwell pushed a union with Protestant Cleves was to ensure that Henry did not marry a Catholic and risk England reconciling with the Pope. Anne knew Henry's reputation for discarding and executing wives so it's probably a safe bet to say that her attitude towards him was one of fear, submission and obedience rather than indifference.
@@qtbrniis Thank you!
Holbein would have lost his head had he been dishonest in his work of Anne. I believe it is accurate, and that she is incredibly beautiful. It is my favorite Holbein portrait from the Tudor court era. She was also a smart young woman, knowing that she had hurt Henry's pride when she didn't recognize him (because he was an idiot), and knew when to bow out. And she kept her head, and then became an incredibly wealthy woman.
She go status as the king's sister, estates, and wealth. I'd say she did well
She has always been my favorite queen of his. From that portrait, I've found her very pretty, with kind eyes. Overall, I feel that he was SO loud about his displeasure in her out of his own pride and insecurities, so he projected his own insecurities onto her. She was lucky to get out of it alive, truly.
She weighed in on the pros and cons of marrying Henry. Few women would still want to take a chance on marrying a very wealthy man if they new he might want them dead with in 3 years because they didnt give him a son right away. And knowing your going to bed with an obese, diseased, sociopath isn’t the best bed warming feeling i’d think for even the most gold digging woman out their.
I think if he did away with her there would have been war with Germany.
@Blue Skies yes, I also thought of Trump immediately. He is well know for calling women who rejected him "ugly" and "bitches".
Women are still judged these days for their looks and not their talents, sense of humour, hobbies, values etc. Lots of women may be beautiful but they are narcissistic etc inside.
Thank you for this! Your take on Anne is entirely plausible. I do believer that Holbein painted what he saw, and she looks strong and buxom. If Henry liked petite frail women, her stature would have discounted her immediately. Some years back Playboy published a coffeetable book of all the Playmates, complete with measurements. Surprisingly, just about every one of them was on the small side. Apparently Hefner was a lot like Henry.
She was probably his smartest wife.
Catherine Parr was the most academic. she was extremely bright
KP was, by all accounts, a lifelong learner who made the most of her position as queen to educate herself. She set a great example!
@Elizabeth Frantes I may be wrong, but Im not sure Henry was that sexually active by the time he was with Parr.
being academic is quite different from being actually smart. one can have an excellent degree, but that doesn't mean they have much imagination and critical thinking skills. speaking about the queens, we don't really get to know them in real life, so i think this question will not ever be solved. what's the point, anyway, if all of us have our own definition of the word "smart", to start with? XD
@@sofyap3980 My point was that she was intellectually curious and thought for herself. I think these are proven facts about Catherine Parr. She could argue theology with the best of them (Henry included, which got her into trouble as she was leaning protestant while Henry, even though he separated from the Catholic church, was NOT a Protestant) and she was even put in charge as his regent when Henry was away or unable. She also directed the education of her step-children (Elizabeth, Mary, and Edward) and convinced Henry to restore the girls to the line of succession. This, to me, proves she was an intelligent woman. I believe it has also been said that she was also a big influence on Elizabeth when she was a young girl, in establishing her belief that a woman could be strong, capable ruler.
Personally I've always found Anne of Cleves to be the most fascinating of Henry's wives.
Anna of Kleves is my favorite wife of Henry 8th.
Her portrait makes her looked humble, conservative and ready to perform her duties.
I love that portrait. Its beautiful. The woman, the colors. The neckline, its just brilliant
It is indeed a beautiful portrait. Holbein is one of the best as evidenced by the family of Sir Thomas Moore.
Excellent video! I love Anne of Cleves story, she wasn't a bit ugly. She was a strong, clever, woman who also established a strong relationship with Mary, Elizabeth and Edward.
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I agree, I think she might well be Henry's most successful wife!
I have always considered that Henry missed out on someone who might have given him many healthy children .
@@brianrodney712 Brian, I doubt that. I think he was the problem. "A Kell positive father frequently is the cause behind the inability of his partner to bear a healthy infant after the first Kell negative pregnancy, which the authors note is precisely the circumstance experienced with women who had multiple pregnancies by Henry. The majority of individuals within the Kell blood group are Kell negative, so it is the rare Kell positive father that creates reproductive problems." www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110303153114.htm
@@k.schmidt2740 Lol, try telling Henry that. Oh, the poor doctor who would try... 🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂
He behaved like one of those nice guys. Reacting like a brat, when being rejected. Smh.
I'd always heard that Henry never could forgive her initial disgust toward him at their first meeting
That has certainly been suggested as an early, if not the earliest, issue they encountered. Henry was also said to have grown frustrated and impatient at the length of time it took for her to arrive in England; so perhaps the seeds of discord we being sewn even earlier?
@@ReadingthePast I was of the impression that they did not share a common language.
While Henry spoke French and Latin, Anne of Cleves spoke only her native language, German with a dialect that was difficult to comprehend, even by German speakers.
I think subsequent events showed that Henry was not sexually attracted to her because he liked her as a person After the annulment she was a regular attendee at Henry's Court and they were very friendly with each other. Anne found it better to stay in England, because as her "Brother" Henry was a lot nicer brother than her real one, who would have regarded as useless for marriage alliances [used goods thinking] and probably placed her in a nunnery. Anne is unique amongst Henry's wives as being the only one he got engaged to without knowing her first.
@@ReadingthePast Anne's veneration, almost, of Catherine Howard, her former lady in waiting, indicates a shrewd mind. She knew exactly what she was doing - ugly maybe, but sensible and methinks a lovable woman.
@@clivekemp8367 she wasn't ugly. I think, going by looks only, she was one of the most attractive of all his wives.
Henry being a king and Anne of Cleve's a princess in her own right made it difficult to use and abuse her. Being from a different country would have cause a diplomatic problem, if he didn't do the right thing and set her free with a pension.
Holbein would never have defrauded Henry. He knew his temper too well to ever dare try to hoodwink the king. I think it was a clash of personalities.
Most reasonable takes I have heard on Anne were that she was pretty but in a hardier kinda way, respectful and a loyal friend. Even Henry grew to enjoy her company.
Personally I think Henry was attracted to dramatic women... High spirited, but only when it amused him. Anne's hardiness could even have been a sign she would have been better able to have children, unlike the slight, small type he preferred.
Anne was the wife he needed but didn't want
I agree. I think she was too emotionally stable and mature for him. It seems like he wanted hard-to-get, flighty, fun, flirtatious women who liked playing games and making him feel like a masculine conqueror
@@monkiram in other words, easier to dominate. Anne sounds like a strong woman and we know today plenty of men who would prefer a petite woman they can physically dominate to a taller, confident woman. One of my daughters is 5'8" and beautiful. She often doesn't like her height but I think she has a physical advantage in being able to scare off men who want their women more (apparently) vulnerable.
Given King Henry's penchant for executing wives who wandered, he was purposely putting Anne of Cleves in a difficult position by pretending to be a stranger. What if she had flirted with him?
The short version :
*man -hits on woman
* woman - rejects man
* man - “well your ugly anyway “ and throws tantrum.
Well played to Anne of Cleaves for escaping her marriage to Henry while at the same time maintaining a good friendship with him , keeping her head and gaining lifelong independence, wealth and the highest ranking ladies at the Tudor court after Henry’s last two wives and his daughters. No one else in Henry’s life was able to achieve this. Even many of his close friends and advisers ended up in the tower . And certainly she fared better than any of his other wives. So well played Anne, Well played 👏
She was ahead of her time. She had a brain and while Henry found that off putting in bed he wanted it in a friend? Maybe.
Quite possibly, the cynical part of me thinks that perhaps their later friendship (if that is what it was) had as much to do with her total capitulation to his will, rather than anything she actually offered?
@@ReadingthePast I think that's quite possible. But even if that's all it was, maybe you could say he at least appreciated her smarts in not fighting him, haha. Like another commenter said, Catherine at least could justify being difficult for her daughter's sake. Even if Ann of C had managed to prolong the marriage, if Harry wasn't sleeping with her, prolonging the marriage wouldn't necessarily mean a greater chance of her having a royal child. I think you could say that Henry at least appreciated her ability to "read the room" in a way some of his other wives couldn't.
Henry didn't ignore her. He granted her property, an annuity, and the title, My Lady, The King's Sister. Most accounts suggest they remained good friends, and often played cards together. Beauty is a subjective quality; she came from a land Henry wasn't familiar with, and from a different phenotype. Compared to his other wives, she was altogether fortunate. I think Joss Stone did great portraying her in The Tudors, btw.
Thanks for a great video, I’ve always found that there’s much more to Anne of Cleves story than what is popularity accepted. Personally, I think that Henry’s declaration of “I like her not” can be interpreted as meaning he didn’t like her as a wife or her personality after that initial meeting gone wrong instead of him not liking her looks. I think his declaration would’ve been much more emphatic and obvious if his dislike was based solely on her looks as he clearly wasn’t one for holding back any opinions, so I’d think that his first words after meeting her would’ve been more along the lines of I can’t marry someone who looks like her or she’s hideous, I won’t have her rather than the more ambiguous “I like her not.”
Whatever her attributes or lack thereof, Anne dodged an axe and enjoyed all the good and few of the bad aspects of Henry's character ... good for her!
Anne's reaction to Henry 100% killed his groove as a man.
She took away his mojo a la Austin Powers
She was always my favourite. Hilarious that he thought rejecting her would break her heart she loved him so. A true survivor
the fact that she asked "was that not enough?"... poor thing 🥺
I agree that Holbein's portrait was most likely accurate.
And, luckily for Anne of Cleves, I think she was not at all Henry's 'type'. She does have rather strong features and was reportedly tall for a woman. Henry's vanity was such that if he didn't top her by 6 inches or more, I doubt he'd admire her inches because he was used to being the tall person in the room. I think she might be described as Juno-esque. Her willingness to go along with what Henry wanted was not what he looked for in a potential wife--he loved the chase--but that same calm pliability was quite welcome for a sister.
Thank you for this fascinating deep dive into this "mystery woman." I do think her portrait shows a humble woman with attractive looks...not so flashy but very warm and kind looking. Your analysis of the various events which shaped her life bring this unfortunate woman to life. I say unfortunate in that she was placed in the position of marrying the Beast but she was also lucky in that she played her part to ensure her future and survival. Most informative! Children would love History as a topic if more history teachers were as invested and entertaining as you.
Whoop! Cleves is my second favourite of Henry's wives, I love her story! And I've always hated Starkey's sexist thesis that she was snubbed and abandoned, when in fact she was a survivor, and lived peacefully, single in style #goals. This was a cracking video Kat.
Thank you, I'm so glad you enjoyed. Anne of Cleves is ace as far as I'm concerned.
I also take issue with Starkey's assessment of women's history (not to mention female historians); his misogyny is infuriating!
@@ReadingthePast can't wait to see Mantel's version of her, haven't got a copy of Mirror and the Light but hopefully soon!
I've just picked it up, I'm excited!
Reading the Past haha and I thought I was the only one who thought that! Misogyny went out along time ago. He needs to get with the times!
On a serious note: In the movie series “The Tudors”, Henry visited Anne of Cleves whilst married to Catherine Howard and even slept with her (in the series). Do you think they eventually “got down to business” so to speak or just remained “brother/Sister” and just friends??? I hear another video idea 💡 “Did Henry VIII sleep with Anne of Cleves after they were divorced?”
Tigers Wood what’s stupid? Surely you can’t have watched Dr Kat’s video and thought it stupid or are you commenting on a comment????
Of all his wives, I would have loved to have met Katharine of Aragon and Anne. Anne survived and thrived! Her records show she loved fine food and games, was loved by her servants...she sounds fun!
Hans Holbein was known for accurate paintings. I don't get why he would buck the trend for one occasion.
I think her initial meeting with Henry pissed him off. She was not fawning, and remained aloof to him.
She was Ann Clever
And THAT exactly is how her name is spoken in German .
Like cleve(r ) and not "cleef",
First: absolutely love the way you explain history, like telling stories. You are fabulous! Second: i'm curious about the history of Anne of Cleves from a Cleves point of view? Was she a failure to them since she was divorced? Was she a hero as she got out of the marriage alive? Or was she sent to England and immediately forgotten?
Maybe Henry couldn't perform anymore and blamed Anne in his shame. He had no kids after Edward and had health issues. No kids with Katherine Howard or Katherine Parr. Katherine Parr had a child with her husband soon after Henry.
Funnily enough Catherine Parr was considered to be barren when she married Henry having already had two husbands without children, so Henry had given up hopes of more children by then.
who knows? I see that As probable
Katherine Howard should have been very fertile, and he adored her. They were married long enough that she should have conceived easily if he was still fertile.
Your reference about Anne is on the money. There is no way the portrait would be too dissimilar to the actual Anne as Hans would lose his head as many ministers of Henry did. The term “she’s a horse” may reflect her physical size which is not shown in the portrait. He may have been intimidated by a large woman from Germany personally and sexually.
Large he was 6'3 and over 200lbs, I know Germanic women can be slightly taller than your average Western European especially the French but a horse. He was embarrassed, it is typical narcissist behvaiour todemean someone who does not agree with you.
I didn't know she'd had a place of prominence at court, even after Henry's death. That is an amazing testimony to her. Also, how did she manage her feelings toward Katherine Howard? She must have been an emotional genius.
I think she was not emotionally attached to him & counted herself blessed. A wise woman not to get caught up in precedence & court politics. Maybe she felt sorry for the girl, knowing what she was in for.
Well done. I've always been fascinated with Anne of Cleves, and agree that there's no way Henry would have forgiven Holbein (or let him live, frankly) if his portrait of her had been inaccurate. I also can't help but think that Henry must have regretted casting her aside for poor, empty-headed Katherine Howard. Anne's easy-going manner and ability to adapt saved her life, for sure.
I don't know if I would have considered Katherine Howard empty headed as just being very girlishly young,she was only 16 and her education would have been limited to what a normal noble woman would need,her cousin Anne Bolyen was fortunate to be educated in France a more worldly country at the time and more liberal in how noble woman were educated.