I have to completely disagree with a person that said how useless the video was with you guys on top of the mountain. My nephew is getting married next week in Colorado and I was able to show the video live to my father who’s bedridden. Very near where it’s going to take happen and give him a clear picture of what it’s like. He was so immensely happy that I was able to do that through you guys. Now it’s just chance, that it happened to be when it did, even though yes, I know you’ve been up there a bunch times. He was appreciative and so am I. So thank you very much for showcasing that.
@@TFLtalkseriously! That was one of my most favorite videos to date. There’s literally 1000s of videos talking about vehicles. What’s better than my (and many others) favorite TH-cam car journalists explore these beautiful sites many of us can not?! Keep it up TFL ❤
I don’t know what comments you are referencing, but I do know that the videos where it is just Roman and a camera typically are not the highest quality. They are usually just POV videos.
I just picked up my 24 Everglades in July and I love it much more then my Rubicon. The table is actually rated for 600LBS and will lock fully extended to stop from moving.
It’s funny how Roman is so confident in his comments on raised air intakes. In Australia when driving in the mines in the Pilbara (with the ultra fine red/orange dust) all the light vehicles have raised intakes to minimize dust ingestion. It’s not always about fording water capabilities.
Starting to see new GX on the road, just saw my first LC today. The new GX front end is 1000% better than before but the LC looks sharp. The local Ineos dealer is dealin’
I have a GX550 Overtrail. I love it. My husband does plan on making some mods to it. We probably won't take it off-roading until it's paid off in a couple of years.
Truly funny how realistically most people who buy the off road versions of anything will never actually test or use it's capability and just get it to look cool. But honestly that's ok. Imagine driving around with everyone driving off roaders and soft roaders!
I PERSONALLY ENJOY WATCHING YOU GUYS OUTDOORS OUT ON THE TRAIL AS WELL AS THE BEAUTIFUL COLORADO ROCKIES. MORE SO THAN SITTING IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA TALKING FOR AN HOUR OR SO. TO EACH HIS OWN BUT YOU GOT BOTH COVERED SO JUST IGNORE THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS. IM GOING TO WATCH THE OTHER VIDEO NOW. THANK YOU.
I love all your videos. I have been enjoying the different trails that Roman has been doing lately. I love the off-road and truck channels the best but watch them all…even the EV.
Hey TFL, Did you all ever figure out how to get the brake controller to work in the Land Cruiser? I'm one of those people that watched that towing comparison with the Tacoma because I am interested in purchasing a Land Cruiser. The brake controller information would be really helpful. Thank you all for the great videos!
Sorry Roman but you are actually wrong about the “desert air intake” being useless. A lot of guys do add snorkels just for keep from as much dust getting in the air box. When you are following someone down a trail, the grill is consistently getting hammered by dust, where the roofline isn’t as bad.
@@TFLtalk towing someone down a trail, true, however I was talking about going down trails with a group, as I’m sure plenty of us do. If you’re not the leader, then you are most likely driving thru a dust cloud. Either way, it is definitely mostly personal preference. Regardless, love the content as always. 👍
@@TFLtalkalso, I would argue it counts as a snorkel on the Everglades because the Everglades does have deeper water fording capabilities than any other Bronco (including Badlands)
I love the video Roman and Andre did on Kingston Peak. Please disregard the offensive comment who I think is in the minority. Roman may be the boss but I think he's the best and most enthusiastic team member of TFL. And the Drives up Deer Creek etc are awesome videos. Au
My Overtrail+ is slated to be delivered in the next 3 weeks. All in OTD it's 91k. After getting the lower and side panels PPF'd, I'm doing everything but rock climbing and jumping it. Everything. And I will do it in comfort and playing my Spotify soundtrack. Battle scars on it will be just that. Nori green with the black roof.
@@UporaFilmsFord still has all these ticky tacky problems on the Bronco that’s soon going onto its 4th year of production. GX might have engine issues after the Tundra thing but after that’s fixed there probably won’t be too many issues going forward. Lol.
@@MaddNomad1015 I hope to God you're right, not only that but along with the LC and the 6th gen 4Runner. I'm looking into getting my first Toyota with a LC and have always heard about their reliability in the past up until the last few years and am worried that I'm missed out experiencing reliability. (Also coming from a Defender *knock on wood it hasn't failed me yet*).
@@UporaFilmsthe 4 banger hasn’t had issue yet funny enough. Throttle house bashed the whole front end, had leaks but had not issues with it. Only issue the Tacomas were having were transmission stuff.
Its not a fair comparison. We need to stop discounting quality. Lexus has not lost its way. It continues to monopolize the top spots in the JD power. Highway driving, better engine, better towing, better infotainment, massage seats, better seats, better off road wheel articulation, better sound insulation, better service (pickup and free delivery with a loaner), Lexus Safety Sense....there are just too many things to just say 58k vs 84k
Toyota did not recall the hybrid V6. Two reasons for that: 1. It is a different engine. Similar to the gas engine, but it is a different part number and there are physical differences such as the gas has a head mounted vacuum pump and the hybrid does not. 2. If the gas engine on the hybrid fails the vehicle can continue to move to a safe place so it is not the same safety concern you have if the engine fails in the gas version. That second one is the main reason Toyota chose to recall all the effected vehicles. There is no way to determine if the engine is actually contaminated and the severity of the failure could be catastrophic.
I like the look of the defender and the higher ground clearance but I don't trust the reliability of the defender and would select the GX over it. I like the look of the bronco too but I won't purchase a Ford due to reliability issues that seem more systemic than Toyota and Land Rover vehicles.
I purchased a 23 GX460 for 69k 9 months ago! I 💙the V8 engine! I love the redesign of the GX550!! These vehicles are pricey, I don’t think you will see a lot of them on the road.
GX IMO…if you can find for 70k. The money just goes into better quality and more practicality. Such a better daily driver. If you’re truly doing lots of off roading then bronco as a side vehicle for sure.
Honestly, they should've called the Sasquatch the Skunk Ape for the Everglades because it's only appropriate for those of us living in Florida. If you didn't, now you know.
If you build an Everglades Bronco with some options it is not hard to get it over $70k. Good luck getting a brand new one for $58k. A Bronco Raptor starts at $90k with no options.
GX550 still has nore ground clearance than the Land Cruiser. A decently equipped Land Cruiser costs almost as much as GX Overtrail, with less space, less HP, less luxury, less towing capacity, less ground clearance, no rock rail, and similar off road capability.
I thought Tundras built through mid-February or the end of February 2024 were recalled. Double check that but I'm pretty sure TRD John reported this on his YT channel as did others
toyota only recalled (safety recall) NON-hybrid V6 power trains because of the loss of power/motive energy. The V6 hybrid vehicles have exactly the same engine problem, but because the hybrid will take over when the engine fails there is no safety recall for them. The V6 in them is still faulty. Toyota has a lot more work to do.
Im a bit frustrated with you guys. You make a huge deal about the $85 K price for that totally loaded ringer model you got from Toyota when I just bought an overtrail with everything you need for under $70K out the door. There is no comparison to the rattle trap bronco with this thing and on top of everything im pleasantly surprised to be getting 26mpg running 75 on the highway. Yes I agree that things are getting stupid price wise but you can get better deals if you are smart about it.
Seems they are not comparing to the Lexus but their anti Bronco and other vechicles not thete to compare it to? I thought they were doing a comparison. On its surface this was not a good comparison due to how different the vechles are and there intended usage.
If you don't mind being broken down frequently, buy the Ford. I drove by a Ford dealer today and can't believe all the Broncos for sale up front....at least 20. Try to buy a new GX 550. The market says you are wrong on your choice.
To be fair there are more broncos on the lot because they've been out for a few years now. Inventory has been able to accumulate now so that dealers have stock and options available. However, prior to this year it's been few to none on the lots. In addition, the GX550 is new and coming from Japan. It takes time to ramp up production as the workers learn the process they get better and faster which will help improve production rate.
The problem is you don’t understand markets. Go to Automotive News or other sources and get the monthly sales volume of each. Anybody who thinks looking at dealer lots equates to sales doesn’t know how to use data to draw conclusions. Bronco sold 8,091 units in June 2024. The GX sold 1,668. Availability is only partially related to sales. The GX is unlikely to ever sale at Bronco levels.
The known issue with the GX is that it’s riddled with plastic, and the “luxury” of Lexus (vs the 460 era) is gone. It’s a step up from the 4Runner, but for that much money I’d buy a Defender. Heck, I bought a used LR4 for less than half the cost of an every level 550 and love it.
I really like the Defender, especially that interior, but I won't buy it over the GX. I can't depend on it for the long term - and I'm a buy and hold guy. The interior in the GX is meant to be easily cleaned, not impress with luxury like the LX. I like it simply because there's no significant piano black.
@@ktpinnacle - the new GX is a good vehicle (engine has question marks due to Tundra issues). It’s just cheaper overall than the 460…which isn’t bad, but if that’s the bar then it’s a notch down. Coming from a 4Runner it’s better. So, perspective plays a part. Looks great! If I’m going to hold it for awhile, I’d give it a few years to work out the kinks. We might buy one, but I’m waiting to see what happens with the engine.
for the money, I'd take the Bronco Everglades. Looks like around my area you can maybe get one around $55k. The GX550, which we've test driven, is really great. Loved it. However, it would be 8-10 months before you could get one. We were just considering a Premium for a daily driver. What would @TFLtalk choose between Bronco Everglades (55k) vs Toyota 4Runner Pro ($60k)??
The LX has always been a luxury-fied version of the very capable, intentional, off-roader the Toyota Land Cruiser (and current gen LX is the only version of the LC300 sold in the U.S. right now). Similarly, the GX was always a more luxury version of what was sold outside of the U.S. as the Land Cruiser Prado- also a very capable off-roader. It wasn’t sold with an off-road trim, with larger front and rear clearances and off-road tires, by Lexus but people would do that aftermarket so Lexus decided to cash in on that themselves
Neither has solid Axles or a manual transmission with a V8 engine and doesn’t tow 17 thousands pounds while driving over Moab., so in the lazy. Sloth ridden meaningless words of Millennialism “ I’m out “ / Hard pass “..,
![ค้างคืนโรงเก็บกระสวยอวกาศร้างกลางทะเลทราย [Around The World Ep. 3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E5bWZQhABJE/mqdefault.jpg)
I have to completely disagree with a person that said how useless the video was with you guys on top of the mountain. My nephew is getting married next week in Colorado and I was able to show the video live to my father who’s bedridden. Very near where it’s going to take happen and give him a clear picture of what it’s like. He was so immensely happy that I was able to do that through you guys. Now it’s just chance, that it happened to be when it did, even though yes, I know you’ve been up there a bunch times. He was appreciative and so am I. So thank you very much for showcasing that.
Thanks
@@TFLtalkseriously! That was one of my most favorite videos to date. There’s literally 1000s of videos talking about vehicles. What’s better than my (and many others) favorite TH-cam car journalists explore these beautiful sites many of us can not?!
Keep it up TFL ❤
People make such useless comments. People souls instead start their own car review channel and do it their way.
I love that you actually test the vehicles in real world situations.
I don’t know what comments you are referencing, but I do know that the videos where it is just Roman and a camera typically are not the highest quality. They are usually just POV videos.
I just picked up my 24 Everglades in July and I love it much more then my Rubicon. The table is actually rated for 600LBS and will lock fully extended to stop from moving.
It’s funny how Roman is so confident in his comments on raised air intakes. In Australia when driving in the mines in the Pilbara (with the ultra fine red/orange dust) all the light vehicles have raised intakes to minimize dust ingestion. It’s not always about fording water capabilities.
Starting to see new GX on the road, just saw my first LC today. The new GX front end is 1000% better than before but the LC looks sharp.
The local Ineos dealer is dealin’
I have a GX550 Overtrail. I love it. My husband does plan on making some mods to it. We probably won't take it off-roading until it's paid off in a couple of years.
Great video as usual guys! I don’t know what my TH-cam experience would be without y’all’s perspective!
Every suv made from this point forward should have that rear slide out thing to sit on like the bronco. Pretty sweet idea 🤙
You have to get a Land Rover Defender 11p to test next to the Lexus GX Overtrail
Truly funny how realistically most people who buy the off road versions of anything will never actually test or use it's capability and just get it to look cool. But honestly that's ok. Imagine driving around with everyone driving off roaders and soft roaders!
I PERSONALLY ENJOY WATCHING YOU GUYS OUTDOORS OUT ON THE TRAIL AS WELL AS THE BEAUTIFUL COLORADO ROCKIES. MORE SO THAN SITTING IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA TALKING FOR AN HOUR OR SO. TO EACH HIS OWN BUT YOU GOT BOTH COVERED SO JUST IGNORE THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS. IM GOING TO WATCH THE OTHER VIDEO NOW. THANK YOU.
I thought the videos showing the trails in the mountains were great! Keep doing them 👍🏻
I love all your videos. I have been enjoying the different trails that Roman has been doing lately. I love the off-road and truck channels the best but watch them all…even the EV.
Kinda wanted to hear comparisons on the suspensions also
Hey TFL, Did you all ever figure out how to get the brake controller to work in the Land Cruiser? I'm one of those people that watched that towing comparison with the Tacoma because I am interested in purchasing a Land Cruiser. The brake controller information would be really helpful. Thank you all for the great videos!
Do the ike! Im interested in the 550 and have a camper. Im wondering if it can handle it.
There is enough interest in the GX that it might get more views than your typical SUV on the Ike.
Same here, I've been waiting to see an Overtrail towing a camping trailer. I wonder how the short wheelbase will handle it.
Sorry Roman but you are actually wrong about the “desert air intake” being useless. A lot of guys do add snorkels just for keep from as much dust getting in the air box. When you are following someone down a trail, the grill is consistently getting hammered by dust, where the roofline isn’t as bad.
Roman says agreed but let’s be real. Towing someone down a dusty trail in a new Bronco is not a daily occurrence for most owners. 😉
@@TFLtalk towing someone down a trail, true, however I was talking about going down trails with a group, as I’m sure plenty of us do. If you’re not the leader, then you are most likely driving thru a dust cloud. Either way, it is definitely mostly personal preference. Regardless, love the content as always. 👍
@@TFLtalkalso, I would argue it counts as a snorkel on the Everglades because the Everglades does have deeper water fording capabilities than any other Bronco (including Badlands)
I really enjoyed the video you two made the other week going up the mountain and chatting about the two vehicles ! Too bad for Bill....
I love the video Roman and Andre did on Kingston Peak. Please disregard the offensive comment who I think is in the minority. Roman may be the boss but I think he's the best and most enthusiastic team member of TFL. And the Drives up Deer Creek etc are awesome videos. Au
My Overtrail+ is slated to be delivered in the next 3 weeks. All in OTD it's 91k. After getting the lower and side panels PPF'd, I'm doing everything but rock climbing and jumping it. Everything. And I will do it in comfort and playing my Spotify soundtrack. Battle scars on it will be just that. Nori green with the black roof.
GX hasn’t been recalled
I’d never choose a ford over a Toyota or Lexus
Yeah but what about a new Toyota? Answer that in a year or two. 🤞🏼🤞🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
@@UporaFilmsFord still has all these ticky tacky problems on the Bronco that’s soon going onto its 4th year of production. GX might have engine issues after the Tundra thing but after that’s fixed there probably won’t be too many issues going forward. Lol.
@@MaddNomad1015 I hope to God you're right, not only that but along with the LC and the 6th gen 4Runner. I'm looking into getting my first Toyota with a LC and have always heard about their reliability in the past up until the last few years and am worried that I'm missed out experiencing reliability. (Also coming from a Defender *knock on wood it hasn't failed me yet*).
@@UporaFilmsthe 4 banger hasn’t had issue yet funny enough. Throttle house bashed the whole front end, had leaks but had not issues with it. Only issue the Tacomas were having were transmission stuff.
@@MaddNomad1015 Throttle house eh, I'll have to check that out!
Edit: Just watched it, the Land Cruiser did, the Land Cruiser thing.. WOW!
I thought the overtrail had the higher payload and towing
Correct, premium and luxury are 7800 to 8000. Overtrail is 9,096 and OT+ is 9,069.
Its not a fair comparison. We need to stop discounting quality. Lexus has not lost its way. It continues to monopolize the top spots in the JD power.
Highway driving, better engine, better towing, better infotainment, massage seats, better seats, better off road wheel articulation, better sound insulation, better service (pickup and free delivery with a loaner), Lexus Safety Sense....there are just too many things to just say 58k vs 84k
No no we don't. Toyota has had a bad year for quality. They need to be held to the same standards as every other manufacturer.
I love the Lexus GX550 trail + the best and will get a 2025 model.
Yes the Lexus GX is lower but the wheel articulation is amazing. All about keeping wheels on the ground.
Toyota did not recall the hybrid V6. Two reasons for that: 1. It is a different engine. Similar to the gas engine, but it is a different part number and there are physical differences such as the gas has a head mounted vacuum pump and the hybrid does not. 2. If the gas engine on the hybrid fails the vehicle can continue to move to a safe place so it is not the same safety concern you have if the engine fails in the gas version.
That second one is the main reason Toyota chose to recall all the effected vehicles. There is no way to determine if the engine is actually contaminated and the severity of the failure could be catastrophic.
Curious what you folks like better, the GX or the Defender..?
I'm not really a fan of either, but if I HAD to choose. I'd go for the Bronco.
Bronco looks tough, but its Lexus for me.
Both.
I like the look of the defender and the higher ground clearance but I don't trust the reliability of the defender and would select the GX over it. I like the look of the bronco too but I won't purchase a Ford due to reliability issues that seem more systemic than Toyota and Land Rover vehicles.
I liked the video of you two coming up the mountain.
I purchased a 23 GX460 for 69k 9 months ago! I 💙the V8 engine! I love the redesign of the GX550!! These vehicles are pricey, I don’t think you will see a lot of them on the road.
" please dont sit on it " , and he sat anyways. Beautiful.
Over trail has a ground clearance if 9.22
Great video guys thank you. People forget everyone has a different opinion and preferences. Agree to disagree lol
both are great for cotsco!
These are the two vehicles I’m debating for my wife. I think there are more people than you think that would consider these two
GX IMO…if you can find for 70k. The money just goes into better quality and more practicality. Such a better daily driver. If you’re truly doing lots of off roading then bronco as a side vehicle for sure.
Honestly, they should've called the Sasquatch the Skunk Ape for the Everglades because it's only appropriate for those of us living in Florida. If you didn't, now you know.
More Honda content guys! Lol. Or more unibody content on the TFLTruck channel
If you build an Everglades Bronco with some options it is not hard to get it over $70k. Good luck getting a brand new one for $58k. A Bronco Raptor starts at $90k with no options.
Once again Roman isn’t prepared and doesn’t know anything about what he’s talking about.
About typical for this channel. Not just Roman.
GX550 still has nore ground clearance than the Land Cruiser. A decently equipped Land Cruiser costs almost as much as GX Overtrail, with less space, less HP, less luxury, less towing capacity, less ground clearance, no rock rail, and similar off road capability.
TT V6 over a T I4 any day!
Regarding recalls and there have been no 2024 recalled so it means issue fixed regarding manufacturing machine debris.
I thought Tundras built through mid-February or the end of February 2024 were recalled. Double check that but I'm pretty sure TRD John reported this on his YT channel as did others
toyota only recalled (safety recall) NON-hybrid V6 power trains because of the loss of power/motive energy. The V6 hybrid vehicles have exactly the same engine problem, but because the hybrid will take over when the engine fails there is no safety recall for them. The V6 in them is still faulty. Toyota has a lot more work to do.
What is Roman's distain for the word beige. It's just a color.
Im a bit frustrated with you guys. You make a huge deal about the $85 K price for that totally loaded ringer model you got from Toyota when I just bought an overtrail with everything you need for under $70K out the door. There is no comparison to the rattle trap bronco with this thing and on top of everything im pleasantly surprised to be getting 26mpg running 75 on the highway. Yes I agree that things are getting stupid price wise but you can get better deals if you are smart about it.
hey marc, what lexus dealer did you use to get under 70k? i would like that deal
If I was really getting an off raider I would not want that Lexus. What is the approach angle on that thing?
@@TH-camuser1aa Not as good as some competitors. Defender for instance.
26 mpg! That's great. Best I've heard so far.
The GX does not have the same engine as the Tundra and LX.
Seems they are not comparing to the Lexus but their anti Bronco and other vechicles not thete to compare it to? I thought they were doing a comparison. On its surface this was not a good comparison due to how different the vechles are and there intended usage.
GX all the times. Please stop comparing American brands with Toyota or Lexus. In all ranks American brands are at the bottom.
the gx is for overlanding the bronco is for off roading.
Not a bad distinction.
I can't imagine having the cash to take a 60k to 80k vehicle to off-road areas just to abuse it
i never abuse my vehicles off road, only people who do that drive way too fast
Hi this is bills dr. Did he leave his location?
The tops
If you don't mind being broken down frequently, buy the Ford. I drove by a Ford dealer today and can't believe all the Broncos for sale up front....at least 20. Try to buy a new GX 550. The market says you are wrong on your choice.
To be fair there are more broncos on the lot because they've been out for a few years now. Inventory has been able to accumulate now so that dealers have stock and options available. However, prior to this year it's been few to none on the lots. In addition, the GX550 is new and coming from Japan. It takes time to ramp up production as the workers learn the process they get better and faster which will help improve production rate.
The problem is you don’t understand markets. Go to Automotive News or other sources and get the monthly sales volume of each. Anybody who thinks looking at dealer lots equates to sales doesn’t know how to use data to draw conclusions.
Bronco sold 8,091 units in June 2024. The GX sold 1,668. Availability is only partially related to sales. The GX is unlikely to ever sale at Bronco levels.
Luxury show vehicles to impress the neighbors, too expensive to get dirty and scratched up. Just projecting buys.
The known issue with the GX is that it’s riddled with plastic, and the “luxury” of Lexus (vs the 460 era) is gone. It’s a step up from the 4Runner, but for that much money I’d buy a Defender. Heck, I bought a used LR4 for less than half the cost of an every level 550 and love it.
I really like the Defender, especially that interior, but I won't buy it over the GX. I can't depend on it for the long term - and I'm a buy and hold guy. The interior in the GX is meant to be easily cleaned, not impress with luxury like the LX. I like it simply because there's no significant piano black.
@@ktpinnacle - the new GX is a good vehicle (engine has question marks due to Tundra issues). It’s just cheaper overall than the 460…which isn’t bad, but if that’s the bar then it’s a notch down. Coming from a 4Runner it’s better. So, perspective plays a part. Looks great! If I’m going to hold it for awhile, I’d give it a few years to work out the kinks. We might buy one, but I’m waiting to see what happens with the engine.
So the factory won't let you drive off road in the rain SMH
5:45 the recall has been discussed ad nauseum.
Please ike it!
Yeah both are breaking 😂
Have the car manufacturer given up on how it looks under the hood?
What a mess with the Ford!
Bill get a life mate, Roman did say ut was not a review but a way of showing how they get up the mountain. I rather liked it...
Thank goodness Roman doesn't do these videos by himself. He spreads so much misinformation.
He should consider retiring
for the money, I'd take the Bronco Everglades. Looks like around my area you can maybe get one around $55k. The GX550, which we've test driven, is really great. Loved it. However, it would be 8-10 months before you could get one. We were just considering a Premium for a daily driver. What would @TFLtalk choose between Bronco Everglades (55k) vs Toyota 4Runner Pro ($60k)??
GX engine turbo v6 is in LX and Tundra . So yes there has been an issue with it.
Branco doesn’t come close to gx compare gx with defender
How in the world is a Lexus SUV made for off-roading? Really? I usually associate a Lexus as just a luxury SUV.
The LX has always been a luxury-fied version of the very capable, intentional, off-roader the Toyota Land Cruiser (and current gen LX is the only version of the LC300 sold in the U.S. right now). Similarly, the GX was always a more luxury version of what was sold outside of the U.S. as the Land Cruiser Prado- also a very capable off-roader. It wasn’t sold with an off-road trim, with larger front and rear clearances and off-road tires, by Lexus but people would do that aftermarket so Lexus decided to cash in on that themselves
Get Andre a tablet.
I like the bronco it's better for offroad use. Lexus is just a grocery getter.
Plenty of videos of the Lexus in some difficult off roads situations. You should take a look before you dismiss it.
That Lexus is hideous. The front end is about as butt ugly as it gets. I would be embarrassed to be seen in that.
Nobody buys a Lexus to go offroad.
I do! I have both
Neither has solid Axles or a manual transmission with a V8 engine and doesn’t tow 17 thousands pounds while driving over Moab., so in the lazy. Sloth ridden meaningless words of Millennialism “ I’m out “ / Hard pass “..,
Damn, glad I don’t subscribe to this anymore. No real information.