2:14 - Origin and History of the Term 4:13 - Definitions; Common Effects on Victims 10:15 - Six-Item Checklist for Identifying It; List of Six Other Things It Could Be 12:28 - Example: Is This Gaslighting? (Christine Collins/"Changeling") 19:08 - Synonyms and Related Concepts 34:52 - Unrelated Concepts Listener-Submitted Examples: Is This Gaslighting? (apologies in advance if I butchered any names; no disrespect intended) 51:31 - LE: Anonymous from Hawaii 59:39 - LE: Oxana 1:04:43 - LE: Subdi from India 1:08:14 - LE: Nicole from Massachusetts 1:12:27 - LE: Natasha from California 1:27:14 - LE: Michelle from Yorkshire 1:36:16 - LE: Unnamed Listener 1:42:33 - How to Protect Yourself
As I was growing up, my stepfather would take items from me that were significant and I would always be looking for them or I would be punished by my mother for losing them. Additionally, he would take less special items for a week or two, like one shoe, then replace it in a very obvious place. When I was 12, I found a hole cut into the ceiling of the basement where he had hidden these special objects from my entire life. The first thing I bought with my first money, many retainers I had been punished for losing, letters from friends that I had never received, pictures of me torn up, hairbrushes........ I never doubted myself but my mother only believed me after we found the hole
A changeling in folklore is a child who takes the place of your child who was taken by the faeries. This was a coping mechanism because usually it was their child was ill and a parent could believe their child was alive living with the faeries and the changeling was the child that was severely ill or dying.
I minimized my own experience by calling what was done to me tricks. It took me well into adulthood to realize what occurred was serious and significant.
Thanks for your discussion on this topic. I'm a victim of actual gaslighting not unlike the film, from a stalker who breaks in and enters, swaps and steals. The gaslighter not only tries to get the victim to question their own judgement but to get others to question the judgement of the victim too. At least that iss how it has been in my case. It has been a horrific experience to be gaslighted and the perp is totally immoral to the core. It has nearly ruined my life that before the gaslighting was normal and happy.
Another factor with the medical issue is that sometimes doctors just don't have the answers for what's happening. I'm reminded of a recent medical mystery I had. A few years ago, I was experiencing abdominal pain so excruciating that I could barely speak. Some friends brought me to a walk-in clinic and the doctor examined me, ran some tests, and told me that he couldn't find anything and his best guess was just that I was depressed. I continued to have intense pain and over the next couple of days, my body swelled to the point where I was unable to walk, bright red from head to toe, and most of my clothing and shoes did not fit me. I was taken to the ER, they ran a bunch of tests of me, and everything came back normal. The ER doctors said they were incredibly confused about what was happening and they'd never seen something like this before. Eventually, I was discharged and over time I recovered. I have no idea what happened, bodies are strange and complex. There have been so many incredible medical discoveries lately, but there's certainly a lot that we still have yet to understand. I don't resent the doctors, it was a bit annoying to have the one dismiss it as depression, but they're human, and if the information about what was happening doesn't exist, I can't fault them for not providing it to me.
What if the term gaslighting (at least the new meaning) actually lies in the response/outcome more than intent? If someone questions their sanity and reality due to an ongoing dishonest, deceptive effort by another person, whether that is the intention or not, that could be gaslighting. After all if the gaslighter isn't successful then no one was gaslit, does that render the person attempting to gaslight not a gaslighter? Shame lying, motivated reasoning, etc, when ongoing can all result in the victim being gaslit and doubting their reality and experience, for years.
My husband hid a serious porn addiction from me, which affected his ability to cope with emotions, our communication, sex life (and all other forms of physical intimacy), his sleep, his work and many others aspects of life. It got worse over the years and he lied to me and multiple (sex) therapists. My husband pretended to be working on himself, but there really wasn't much change. He pretended there was change though. He watched porn and webcamgirls at work, or when I was asleep. He denied and misconstrued a lot of information over the years. Intuitively I knew something was wrong, but I started to question myself often. The manipulation was 98% related to the addiction, but it was so pervasive (and continued on for 17 years) that I suspect that I've been gaslit. We are both healing from this at the moment and I've gotten better at spotting manipulation in general.
I'm so glad to hear you are both healing! Such a difficult situation. Modern internet porn can be such a trap for people, i somehow doubt many people got addicted to those old magazines or Victorian sexy drawings. I wonder if gaslighting is inevitable in addiction? How do you be honest with the people you love when you are lying to yourself? And then when they see the truth, you panic and hide it from them and tell them they can't trust their own eyes, because you don't want it to be true.
I am so sorry - all addiction is hard, but the additional shame of sex addiction makes it harder for the victims to reach out and find a sense of community. @therabbitrhat, I think that both denial and gaslighting are common in addiction. The denial is “this is not so bad” “this is not an addiction” “everybody watches porn/drinks/whatever”. While gaslighting is not required by an addict, it is a common tool that is used to be able to keep feeding the addiction without interference.
My ex did most of these things to me. The "Don't air our dirty laundry," was definitely a thing. He hated it when I would talk about him to my friends or family, he called it "telling his business." I just thought he valued his privacy. But eventually, I couldn't talk to anyone about anything because he was involved in most aspects of my life at the time. He thought therapy was a scam, too, and when I lost my therapist, he convinced me not to get another one. I was going to look for one anyway, but then I lost my health insurance, and he definitely wasn't helping me get it back. Needless to say, I'm glad I'm out of there. Dodged a snipe shot.
Thank you for introducing us to the idea of creeping normality or landscape amnesia. I experienced this during my two years homeless on the street and observed its effects on other homeless people who had been in a worse situation for longer. House people wonder why we behave in certain ways and it's either because we're completely unaccustomed and freshly homeless and don't know how to survive out here or it's because we've been at it for so long competing with other homeless people for the same resources defending ourselves against other homeless people who are the ones who steal for most of the most it's interesting you just get used to being surrounded by people like that all the time when you don't have anywhere else to go.
As per the Angelina Jolie movie, she thought *maybe* he had grown a lot and been abused. She also thought, “Well I need to care for this boy -either way -for the night before I can prove he isn’t my son.” So she gave him a bath. She also wanted to look for moles, etc during the bath. During the bath (the same day she picked him up from the train station)! The kicker, the boy wasn’t circumcised and her son WAS! She even presented medical records to prove it. She presented that fact, and medical records. and was still told she was wrong and in denial! They even ignored her when it came to medicine (also he didn’t have cavities her son had had)! And they STILL sent her to a psychiatric hospital!!! The police Chief/ Sheriff wanted to get a “W” in “finding” him because of other boys were also missing (a whole other part of the story) so he/they -cops-wouldn’t look bad! So they made her look crazy using Gaslighting tactics...but she prevailed b/ motherhood and feminism etc. ...
A classic example of gaslighting is in “Amelie” movie. Where she punishes the owner of a veggie store who poorly treats his handicapped employee. Gets a key to his apartment and switches door handles to a different type, replaces his slippers with smaller size, changes quick dial numbers, etc.
I have a stalker, and he is doing things like this to me breaks in non forced entry, changes and swaps, then steals. It is classic gaslighting. And it has ruined my life which was normal and happy before the stalking.
This is just one of my many many experiences being Gaslit by my mother who I truly believe to be a covert narcissist. Like she ticks ALL the boxes. But yeah, I was in a dance company throughout high school and I am proud cause it was a pretty exciting thing in my past and I loved it. My daughter who is now starting to dance loves to hear about performances I did during that time and I love telling her. My mother over heard my story one day a few months back while outside talking to my neighbor and she accused me of lying about being in the dance company and my neighbor believed her and my daughter was obviously confused... I was really upset; I actually cried about it cause it was hurtful and embarrassing. She told my father I was lying and everything. I ended up ordering my transcripts from high school which shows proof that yes I was in this dance company al 4 years of high school and when they arrived I waited till my neighbor was over talking to my parents and presented my transcripts and proof of this dance company and basically was able to prove that my mom was either lying to hurt and embarrassed me or she just didn't remember cause she never attended any shows or took any interest in me but her look on her face I assume that it was done maliciously. I mean like I said I have many experiences being Gaslit by her this wasn'the first time. But I honestly thought that maybe I made it up and I wasn't in that company while waiting the 8weeks for my transcripts to arrive. She actually had me questioning if I had imagined that huge part of my life. it was a very disorienting feeling to question my own memories and sanity. But transcripts dont lie.
It's called "Changeling" because it used to be believed in folklore that there were fairies that stole babies and replaced them with fairies or "changelings". I thought it was a pretty good name for the film actually.
I’ve had a similar experience with doctors. I’ve had a terrible time with fatigue, and swollen glands, and my immune system is a mess. I’m always told it’s nothing, and it’s blamed on my depression diagnosis. It’s been frustrating because the fatigue can be really debilitating.
Yes, I feel you on this. One thing that might be worth looking into: Andy Cutler Chelation books and Facebook group. Depression & Fatigue are two common symptoms of mercury toxicity. I was surprised to find out I was mercury toxic. I never would have imagined. I had amalgam (silver) fillings and thought they were harmless. I also was surprised to realize that my kids health problems were the result of being exposed to mercury in-utero from MY fillings (they never had any of their own). My daughter had ADHD, anxiety and gut issues but after some chelation, she has been able to get off of her ADHD meds and feels so much healthier. There are copycat groups on facebook, so find the one that has almost 70k members. It's called "Andy Cutler Chelation: Safe Mercury and Heavy Metal Detox". Finding the group was life-changing for me after years of depression meds that didn't really help. I'm not mad at the Doctors, the Dentists and the Psychiatrist because they're just following their training, but there seems to be a HUGE information gap in the medical / dental world about this topic. There's so much misinformation out there, but Dr. Cutler (Princeton Chemistry PhD / Engineering undergrad degree, medicine as a hobby) sorted through it when he was trying to solve his own elusive health issues. He found a path for restoring health that works for Autism, Depression, OCD, MS, Chronic Fatigue, Adrenal issues, thyroid issues, etc. etc. etc.
I have lupus. I can handle the pain, even when pretty severe, far better than the overwhelming fatigue. It is the worst. It took over a decade of doctors telling me that nonsense before the final test showed positive. They really need to believe patients know their bodies. (Speaking of glands and fatigue, did you have mono? It's possible you're dealing with chronic EBV which can lead to lupus.)
@@gus9663 yeah, I wonder why... /s (btw symptoms are different and there's a lot of sexism in medicine overall - men being seen as default and whatnot)
@@al.the. I only mentioned that statistic because it gives some extra data regarding female heart attacks. I'm sure there are plenty of terrible health care workers who turn away women who need care, but I know there's more going on than that. If it makes you feel any better, there is a lot of work being done to eliminate that disparity. A lot more effort is going into educating women about heart disease and more awareness in general is being spread. That increased awareness is especially being taught in health care, so know that work is being done to help women.
@@al.the. @al the al Also, as a male nurse I somewhat take offense to the idea that female clients are always being turned away and told they're just anxious. This doesn't apply to most competent health care workers and it's certainly not the main reason why women are more likely to die from a heart attack. I'm sure that plays a part, but it's a bit more complicated than that.
@@gus9663 You're actually saying the same thing. You say women are uninformed about heart attack symptoms, and they're saying women are uninformed about heart attack symptoms because currently we only promote the male symptoms of heart attacks as the only "real" symptoms. I'm sure you're good at your job, but there are certainly a lot of health care workers who are still working with old definitions and only consider the male symptoms "real". So you're saying the same thing, but the other user gave a reason as to WHY women are so uninformed about female symptoms for heart attacks. I've seen this happen firsthand to a female family member who was told she just had IBS and anxiety when in reality she had suffered two heart attacks in three weeks.
I think the movie is called changeling because of its association with the Irish "changeling" stories, where a baby is taken in the night by the fae and replaced with a changeling baby.
A good example of gaslighting is not to compare it to murder vs attempted murder - its more like ‘strangling’ you may intend to kill someone when you’re strangling them, but even if you don’t succeed you have definitely still been strangling them
Thank you so much for this episode, Dr Honda and Humberto. It validated my own experiences. My ex would tell me that I misremember things throughout the 9 years of our marriage. I would bring something up, like an issue, and he would say that I had imagined it because it never happened. I can't remember a specific issue but an example would be something like I'd leave my keys on the table but then find it somewhere else. I'd say that I put the keys on the table but he'd tell me I was wrong and I misremembered. Over 9 years, I questioned my sanity. It wasn't until sometime in 2016 that I told my best friend about all that's been happening that she told me that I was being "gaslit". I had never heard of that term before but when I looked up the definition and read about the movie that Dr Honda and Humberto mentioned, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was definitely gaslit for years. I was controlled and coerced for years through this. I was isolated from my friends and family (I moved to the United States and have no family here). I became highly dependent on this person and I had no way to do anything on my own. It's been 5 years since my ex had dumped me and I've been in therapy for about 4 years. I'm in a healthy relationship now and have learned so much from this experience.
My ex gaslight me big time, after I left I went to a self esteem, self assertiveness workshop. It is so damaging, really damaging. It has been 5 years since I left and have not went on a date or even thought of dating ever again, actually. Plus he and my ex married best friend and him were having an affair. Actually, I think he broke my spirit, I no longer trust men.
1:17:25 we have a word for that - patriarchy. It includes misogyny, rape culture, toxic masculinity, violence against women etc. bell hooks defined patriarchy as institutionalized sexism, and it works. Violence from the state or from a partner is all about power and control, so with Natasha's example gaslighting does take place.
the Changeling title is most likely referring to the Scottish folklore where women would take their disabled children to the forest to give them back to the fairies as they believed that their bodies had been stolen or changed by them. I believe they would return the baby in hopes the fairies would have mercy and return them to "normal" humans. According to sources it unfortunately was a real practice. Love your videos Dr. Kirk!
..."Am I losing my mind?...I feel like, I knew, once, how to judge the world and now...do I know... am I going, crazy?....did I forget that??? I swear, that's what happened??!...maybe...maybe, I'm not good at...." Dr. Kirk, just articulated the feelings and thoughts running through, my head, almost everyday - my entire life. 😑
Not a bad definition. I agree the definition changing over time. Or are confusing general lying with gaslighting. I would've thought I couldn't be gaslit. I was wrong. It takes a long time to recover and trust and you have to check in with yourself a lot.
If anybody remembers Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Connelly in "He's Not That Into You", they were a married couple and not only was he lying to her because he was cheating on her with Scarlett Johansen, he was smoking on the sly and would hide the cigarettes in the house and when she found them, he convinced her they weren't his. I would call that gaslighting.
That sounds more like Shame lying than gaslighting. He was trying to cover up not necessarily intentionally distorting her reality to cause her to go insane and be subservient to him.
I think the “Changeling” title is an allusion to the folkloric idea of a lookalike supernatural entity being substituted into a family for a human child by fairies or pixies or whatever kind of sneaky mythical creatures are local. Maybe it was a bad title for marketing, but I don’t think it’s a bad cultural reference. Isn’t the Martha Mitchell effect exactly what was done to Christine Collins, i.e. silencing a truth teller by discrediting the person as emotionally troubled?
Really interesting that you mentioned how gaslighting is almost always connected with abusive behavior and then brought up the DC snipper attacks....the "You're Wrong About" podcast did a great episode on the attacks and covered how way before them, John Allen Muhammad was EXTREMELY abusive to his wife. In fact it's suspected his entire motive was originally to murder his ex-wife, and the other shootings would make it appear she was just another random victim. It's obviously complicated, but I see Lee Boyd Malvo as much more of a victim in the whole situation.
I have been a victim of this from my daughter in law who disowned all her family and mine except I stand by my son. If not for him I would have had her charged with elder abuse years ago.
I would agree with the cheaper treatment is a focus for doctors but also less invasive treatment/ tests for the patient. Doctors are often told to utilise Occam's razor and "when you hear hoofbeats think of horses not zebras". This also slightly conflicts with the change in medical messaging to go to a doctor with early warning signs and changing perception that medicine is more about management and prevention, not just about emergencies. I get very frustrated on people's behalf hearing the medical ones- anxiety and depression are also symptoms not just causes and I think once emergency cause is ruled out they can defer treating people who may really need help- but alot of people are already at that point when they walk in the door. I think the onus is on the patient to advocate for themselves alot.
I was a medic in the Army several years ago during OIF. There were legit sexual assaults and there were also false reporting of sexual assaults too. The army's way to protect soldiers against both types was to make sure that people did not wander around alone. They encouraged all soldiers to never be alone. Even male soldiers. That way there would always be witnesses. The military took sexual assault very seriously actually. I was a female medic during wartime and I often got attached to infantry units to do certain civil affairs missions. Basically Iraqi culture made it absolutely necessary for female medics to go on these missions in order to respect the culture of Iraqi women- meaning having female medics, physicians, and guards available. I never went alone without at least another female soldier (we called them battle buddies)- Also female medics had to be returned to base. Or the Commanders of these missions almost always returned us to base- meaning we did not sleep among the infantry without proper accommodations. Adultery is illegal in the military. And fraternization is highly discouraged. Of course all fraternization can not be stopped (or adultery). But I can say there has been some cases where rape has been accused falsely when infidelity is a part of equation. The buddy system was put on ALL soldiers. I think that needed to be cleared up. This helps protect women and men equally. From sexual assault and accusations. As a female soldier I was always treated with dignity and respect, even among infantry soldiers. I never got the feeling that I was treated as a slut or that I was weak. I remained professional at all times and received the respect I deserved most of the time. The few times I did not, was always when I was sent on some missions with other female soldiers who did not remain professional, were flirtatious and forgot their military bearing. There were sine female soldiers that made the military extremely hard for other female soldiers. It was extremely terrible and this really upset me when I was in the military. I tried mentor female soldiers all the time about the importance of professionalism at all times. Also the importance that ALL soldiers utilize the buddy system. Even some doctors insist on chaperones for their own protection as well as putting their patient at ease. This was the reason for this buddy system in the military. It had nothing to do with not trusting women or men or not believing us or blaming us. Not at all.
I know that this was not the focus of this podcast and usually I to not pipe in, but I felt it was really important to explain that correctly. Like Dr. Honda said. Sexual assaults will occur, but the military does make a significant attempt to lessen it and train and educate their personnel on ways to guard against it as much as possible. I feel like half my military career was spent in such meetings and seminars. We literally had EO and Sexual Harassment and Assault Prevention training every other few weeks. Even while deployed during wartime (in theatre). I am no longer in the military. I have been out since 2011, but my son is currently serving. He mentions the training and prevention briefings are still constant. Which is as it should be. It pleases me to hear that.
For years I’ve been gaslighted even by my own parent. Still to this day I’m being gas lighted when I know the truth ! I put up with it because of the love I hav for him. I never want any harm to him but the more I accept the more I die inside! I want to die because I’m tired but I’m still here fighting because one day my day will come where I won’t have to worry because my partner is the truth
I'm sorry. It isn't okay to continue to be abused, especially when it's affecting you at a fundamental level. Sometimes people are too toxic to be in our lives. We can love them better from afar.
You might wanna look into that Stockholm syndrome's validity. I remember reading (and listening? maybe multiple times?) in whatever feminist page/yt I follow. It was revisited? and turned out it was just conclusion of a single doctor/police inspector - combo? ... how they? (who were sexist) talked _about_ her, and dismissed her when she was negating their interpretations... Lot of "?" because my memory is foggy*, I just vaguely remember anything but conclusion that it was all bs. (would *that* be gaslighting, similar to that mother/not her son police acting...?) maybe do an episode on it - if you find what I'm saying to be true. *chronic illness/fatigue brain fog, scrolling & shallow reading a lot.
Not the point of the episode but there is a pretty great 80s horror (if say its more of an exploration of grief) named The Changeling. It's definitely worth checking out
Regarding the attack of the woman and the subsequent poor response, how about calling it “systematic abuse and victim-blaming”? Those who are in the driver’s seat do not always find it comfortable or convenient to deal objectively and justly with situations where they lack appreciation, understanding, empathy for the victim. In fact, sometimes contempt for the victim is an underlying factor that inhibits, or even obstructs objectivity and justice. This is just one of many facets of the abuse of power.
I only run into this term in relationships when pointing out an issue in the other person. They'll say "you're gaslighting me" just another psychobabble term added to the lexicon to allow people to shield themselves from self improvement
If you've heard this in relationships repeatedly, and it sounds like by more than one person, then it's possible you are in fact gaslighting. You dismissing a term for something so destructive "psychobabble" is gaslighting.
@@asunnywebb funny that the most stable girlfriend I've had has never said this to me. Maybe keep your judgements to yourself *Also you're gaslighting me, see how easy that is?
I'm guessing its called changling in regards to a Celtics (I think) folklore that ferries would steal your child and switch them for a changling. When this case happened im pretty sure a people were speculating that they thought it was case of that.. not 100 percent sure on any of that though don't quote me lmao
Dr. Kirk's idea about what happened in the Catholic church is so innocent. They didn't have to decide for themselves what to do when there was a report of child rape, it was official policy. Content Warning: massive institutional child abuse: You said one of the things they wanted was to protect children, but if that were true they wouldn't have sold children. An Irish baby in the 70s was worth about 1000 dollars to the Catholic church, they sold them to families in the US who couldn't have children and who didn't know the child had been kidnapped. They kidnapped and enslaved pregnant women with the help of police, if they managed to escape the police would bring them back. So they worked for free and weren't allowed leave and then once they gave birth their babies were taken from them and often they had to continue working. These institutions also didn't take good care of the children and countless babies were buried in unmarked graves around the country. To this day people are fighting in the courts to force the Catholic church to let them look for the mass graves so that they can give the children a proper burial, but they refuse to allow it because when the mass grave in Tuam was discovered it was a massive controversy that they had killed 796 babies and then not buried them in consecrated ground. Parts of this system were still ongoing in Ireland in the 21st century, and even now in 2021 they refuse to let the adopted children know the identities of their mothers, many of whom never wanted to give them up and had them stolen from them, because if you weren't married you had no right to your own baby and would be imprisoned. Most of the women went to their graves not knowing whether their babies had grown up in orphanages where all of the children were being abused and many were being sexually abused, been adopted by a married couple, been sold to a family in America, or died and been buried in a mass grave.
2:14 - Origin and History of the Term
4:13 - Definitions; Common Effects on Victims
10:15 - Six-Item Checklist for Identifying It; List of Six Other Things It Could Be
12:28 - Example: Is This Gaslighting? (Christine Collins/"Changeling")
19:08 - Synonyms and Related Concepts
34:52 - Unrelated Concepts
Listener-Submitted Examples: Is This Gaslighting? (apologies in advance if I butchered any names; no disrespect intended)
51:31 - LE: Anonymous from Hawaii
59:39 - LE: Oxana
1:04:43 - LE: Subdi from India
1:08:14 - LE: Nicole from Massachusetts
1:12:27 - LE: Natasha from California
1:27:14 - LE: Michelle from Yorkshire
1:36:16 - LE: Unnamed Listener
1:42:33 - How to Protect Yourself
Thank you!
Thanks for doing this you're great
🙏🏽 thank you!
"unlicensed computer keyboard operator" - love it! (I might use it myself, next time any introductions take place in my life) :D :D
As I was growing up, my stepfather would take items from me that were significant and I would always be looking for them or I would be punished by my mother for losing them. Additionally, he would take less special items for a week or two, like one shoe, then replace it in a very obvious place. When I was 12, I found a hole cut into the ceiling of the basement where he had hidden these special objects from my entire life. The first thing I bought with my first money, many retainers I had been punished for losing, letters from friends that I had never received, pictures of me torn up, hairbrushes........
I never doubted myself but my mother only believed me after we found the hole
That’s shocking. What happened next?
wow that is... that is dark.
That is chilling. I hope this sick man is out of your life now.
Wow. That's horrible. I'm so sorry.
Your childhood in my childhood sound similar. I'm sorry
A changeling in folklore is a child who takes the place of your child who was taken by the faeries. This was a coping mechanism because usually it was their child was ill and a parent could believe their child was alive living with the faeries and the changeling was the child that was severely ill or dying.
Yes, also a way to explain autism before we understood what was up
That makes complete sense now.
Came here to say this. Thank you!
As a survivor, I find it annoying that words are used differently bc what happened to me was severe and it was abuse and now it's been washed down.
I minimized my own experience by calling what was done to me tricks. It took me well into adulthood to realize what occurred was serious and significant.
Thanks for your discussion on this topic. I'm a victim of actual gaslighting not unlike the film, from a stalker who breaks in and enters, swaps and steals. The gaslighter not only tries to get the victim to question their own judgement but to get others to question the judgement of the victim too. At least that iss how it has been in my case. It has been a horrific experience to be gaslighted and the perp is totally immoral to the core. It has nearly ruined my life that before the gaslighting was normal and happy.
Another factor with the medical issue is that sometimes doctors just don't have the answers for what's happening. I'm reminded of a recent medical mystery I had. A few years ago, I was experiencing abdominal pain so excruciating that I could barely speak. Some friends brought me to a walk-in clinic and the doctor examined me, ran some tests, and told me that he couldn't find anything and his best guess was just that I was depressed. I continued to have intense pain and over the next couple of days, my body swelled to the point where I was unable to walk, bright red from head to toe, and most of my clothing and shoes did not fit me. I was taken to the ER, they ran a bunch of tests of me, and everything came back normal. The ER doctors said they were incredibly confused about what was happening and they'd never seen something like this before. Eventually, I was discharged and over time I recovered. I have no idea what happened, bodies are strange and complex. There have been so many incredible medical discoveries lately, but there's certainly a lot that we still have yet to understand. I don't resent the doctors, it was a bit annoying to have the one dismiss it as depression, but they're human, and if the information about what was happening doesn't exist, I can't fault them for not providing it to me.
What if the term gaslighting (at least the new meaning) actually lies in the response/outcome more than intent? If someone questions their sanity and reality due to an ongoing dishonest, deceptive effort by another person, whether that is the intention or not, that could be gaslighting. After all if the gaslighter isn't successful then no one was gaslit, does that render the person attempting to gaslight not a gaslighter? Shame lying, motivated reasoning, etc, when ongoing can all result in the victim being gaslit and doubting their reality and experience, for years.
Nope- that’s just lying. There must be intention to cause the person to question their own perceptions of reality.
My husband hid a serious porn addiction from me, which affected his ability to cope with emotions, our communication, sex life (and all other forms of physical intimacy), his sleep, his work and many others aspects of life. It got worse over the years and he lied to me and multiple (sex) therapists. My husband pretended to be working on himself, but there really wasn't much change. He pretended there was change though. He watched porn and webcamgirls at work, or when I was asleep. He denied and misconstrued a lot of information over the years. Intuitively I knew something was wrong, but I started to question myself often. The manipulation was 98% related to the addiction, but it was so pervasive (and continued on for 17 years) that I suspect that I've been gaslit. We are both healing from this at the moment and I've gotten better at spotting manipulation in general.
I'm so glad to hear you are both healing! Such a difficult situation.
Modern internet porn can be such a trap for people, i somehow doubt many people got addicted to those old magazines or Victorian sexy drawings.
I wonder if gaslighting is inevitable in addiction? How do you be honest with the people you love when you are lying to yourself? And then when they see the truth, you panic and hide it from them and tell them they can't trust their own eyes, because you don't want it to be true.
I am so sorry - all addiction is hard, but the additional shame of sex addiction makes it harder for the victims to reach out and find a sense of community.
@therabbitrhat, I think that both denial and gaslighting are common in addiction. The denial is “this is not so bad” “this is not an addiction” “everybody watches porn/drinks/whatever”. While gaslighting is not required by an addict, it is a common tool that is used to be able to keep feeding the addiction without interference.
My ex did most of these things to me. The "Don't air our dirty laundry," was definitely a thing. He hated it when I would talk about him to my friends or family, he called it "telling his business." I just thought he valued his privacy. But eventually, I couldn't talk to anyone about anything because he was involved in most aspects of my life at the time. He thought therapy was a scam, too, and when I lost my therapist, he convinced me not to get another one. I was going to look for one anyway, but then I lost my health insurance, and he definitely wasn't helping me get it back. Needless to say, I'm glad I'm out of there. Dodged a snipe shot.
Thank you for introducing us to the idea of creeping normality or landscape amnesia. I experienced this during my two years homeless on the street and observed its effects on other homeless people who had been in a worse situation for longer. House people wonder why we behave in certain ways and it's either because we're completely unaccustomed and freshly homeless and don't know how to survive out here or it's because we've been at it for so long competing with other homeless people for the same resources defending ourselves against other homeless people who are the ones who steal for most of the most it's interesting you just get used to being surrounded by people like that all the time when you don't have anywhere else to go.
And post-release prisoner behavior is also another example sometimes
As per the Angelina Jolie movie, she thought *maybe* he had grown a lot and been abused. She also thought, “Well I need to care for this boy -either way -for the night before I can prove he isn’t my son.” So she gave him a bath. She also wanted to look for moles, etc during the bath. During the bath (the same day she picked him up from the train station)! The kicker, the boy wasn’t circumcised and her son WAS! She even presented medical records to prove it. She presented that fact, and medical records. and was still told she was wrong and in denial! They even ignored her when it came to medicine (also he didn’t have cavities her son had had)! And they STILL sent her to a psychiatric hospital!!! The police Chief/ Sheriff wanted to get a “W” in “finding” him because of other boys were also missing (a whole other part of the story) so he/they -cops-wouldn’t look bad! So they made her look crazy using Gaslighting tactics...but she prevailed b/ motherhood and feminism etc. ...
A classic example of gaslighting is in “Amelie” movie. Where she punishes the owner of a veggie store who poorly treats his handicapped employee. Gets a key to his apartment and switches door handles to a different type, replaces his slippers with smaller size, changes quick dial numbers, etc.
That would be the classic sense, yes.
I have a stalker, and he is doing things like this to me breaks in non forced entry, changes and swaps, then steals. It is classic gaslighting. And it has ruined my life which was normal and happy before the stalking.
@@debrajanzen6661 I’m so sorry you are going through this. Hopefully, you can find help and protection in your area.
This is just one of my many many experiences being Gaslit by my mother who I truly believe to be a covert narcissist. Like she ticks ALL the boxes. But yeah, I was in a dance company throughout high school and I am proud cause it was a pretty exciting thing in my past and I loved it. My daughter who is now starting to dance loves to hear about performances I did during that time and I love telling her. My mother over heard my story one day a few months back while outside talking to my neighbor and she accused me of lying about being in the dance company and my neighbor believed her and my daughter was obviously confused... I was really upset; I actually cried about it cause it was hurtful and embarrassing. She told my father I was lying and everything. I ended up ordering my transcripts from high school which shows proof that yes I was in this dance company al 4 years of high school and when they arrived I waited till my neighbor was over talking to my parents and presented my transcripts and proof of this dance company and basically was able to prove that my mom was either lying to hurt and embarrassed me or she just didn't remember cause she never attended any shows or took any interest in me but her look on her face I assume that it was done maliciously. I mean like I said I have many experiences being Gaslit by her this wasn'the first time. But I honestly thought that maybe I made it up and I wasn't in that company while waiting the 8weeks for my transcripts to arrive. She actually had me questioning if I had imagined that huge part of my life. it was a very disorienting feeling to question my own memories and sanity. But transcripts dont lie.
It's called "Changeling" because it used to be believed in folklore that there were fairies that stole babies and replaced them with fairies or "changelings". I thought it was a pretty good name for the film actually.
I’ve had a similar experience with doctors. I’ve had a terrible time with fatigue, and swollen glands, and my immune system is a mess. I’m always told it’s nothing, and it’s blamed on my depression diagnosis.
It’s been frustrating because the fatigue can be really debilitating.
Yes, I feel you on this. One thing that might be worth looking into: Andy Cutler Chelation books and Facebook group. Depression & Fatigue are two common symptoms of mercury toxicity. I was surprised to find out I was mercury toxic. I never would have imagined. I had amalgam (silver) fillings and thought they were harmless. I also was surprised to realize that my kids health problems were the result of being exposed to mercury in-utero from MY fillings (they never had any of their own). My daughter had ADHD, anxiety and gut issues but after some chelation, she has been able to get off of her ADHD meds and feels so much healthier.
There are copycat groups on facebook, so find the one that has almost 70k members. It's called "Andy Cutler Chelation: Safe Mercury and Heavy Metal Detox". Finding the group was life-changing for me after years of depression meds that didn't really help. I'm not mad at the Doctors, the Dentists and the Psychiatrist because they're just following their training, but there seems to be a HUGE information gap in the medical / dental world about this topic. There's so much misinformation out there, but Dr. Cutler (Princeton Chemistry PhD / Engineering undergrad degree, medicine as a hobby) sorted through it when he was trying to solve his own elusive health issues. He found a path for restoring health that works for Autism, Depression, OCD, MS, Chronic Fatigue, Adrenal issues, thyroid issues, etc. etc. etc.
I have lupus. I can handle the pain, even when pretty severe, far better than the overwhelming fatigue. It is the worst. It took over a decade of doctors telling me that nonsense before the final test showed positive. They really need to believe patients know their bodies.
(Speaking of glands and fatigue, did you have mono? It's possible you're dealing with chronic EBV which can lead to lupus.)
This is why more women die of heart attacks, we're always called anxious and sent home.
I think it's a statistical fact that women are much less likely to seek help when they are having symptoms of a heart attack
@@gus9663
yeah, I wonder why...
/s
(btw symptoms are different and there's a lot of sexism in medicine overall - men being seen as default and whatnot)
@@al.the. I only mentioned that statistic because it gives some extra data regarding female heart attacks. I'm sure there are plenty of terrible health care workers who turn away women who need care, but I know there's more going on than that. If it makes you feel any better, there is a lot of work being done to eliminate that disparity. A lot more effort is going into educating women about heart disease and more awareness in general is being spread. That increased awareness is especially being taught in health care, so know that work is being done to help women.
@@al.the. @al the al Also, as a male nurse I somewhat take offense to the idea that female clients are always being turned away and told they're just anxious. This doesn't apply to most competent health care workers and it's certainly not the main reason why women are more likely to die from a heart attack. I'm sure that plays a part, but it's a bit more complicated than that.
@@gus9663 You're actually saying the same thing. You say women are uninformed about heart attack symptoms, and they're saying women are uninformed about heart attack symptoms because currently we only promote the male symptoms of heart attacks as the only "real" symptoms. I'm sure you're good at your job, but there are certainly a lot of health care workers who are still working with old definitions and only consider the male symptoms "real".
So you're saying the same thing, but the other user gave a reason as to WHY women are so uninformed about female symptoms for heart attacks. I've seen this happen firsthand to a female family member who was told she just had IBS and anxiety when in reality she had suffered two heart attacks in three weeks.
I think the movie is called changeling because of its association with the Irish "changeling" stories, where a baby is taken in the night by the fae and replaced with a changeling baby.
A good example of gaslighting is not to compare it to murder vs attempted murder - its more like ‘strangling’ you may intend to kill someone when you’re strangling them, but even if you don’t succeed you have definitely still been strangling them
Hmmm, that is an excellent thought to consider as well. Interesting.
Damn. That's deep
Thank you so much for this episode, Dr Honda and Humberto. It validated my own experiences.
My ex would tell me that I misremember things throughout the 9 years of our marriage. I would bring something up, like an issue, and he would say that I had imagined it because it never happened. I can't remember a specific issue but an example would be something like I'd leave my keys on the table but then find it somewhere else. I'd say that I put the keys on the table but he'd tell me I was wrong and I misremembered. Over 9 years, I questioned my sanity. It wasn't until sometime in 2016 that I told my best friend about all that's been happening that she told me that I was being "gaslit". I had never heard of that term before but when I looked up the definition and read about the movie that Dr Honda and Humberto mentioned, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was definitely gaslit for years. I was controlled and coerced for years through this.
I was isolated from my friends and family (I moved to the United States and have no family here). I became highly dependent on this person and I had no way to do anything on my own. It's been 5 years since my ex had dumped me and I've been in therapy for about 4 years. I'm in a healthy relationship now and have learned so much from this experience.
My ex gaslight me big time, after I left I went to a self esteem, self assertiveness workshop. It is so damaging, really damaging. It has been 5 years since I left and have not went on a date or even thought of dating ever again, actually. Plus he and my ex married best friend and him were having an affair. Actually, I think he broke my spirit, I no longer trust men.
1:17:25 we have a word for that - patriarchy. It includes misogyny, rape culture, toxic masculinity, violence against women etc. bell hooks defined patriarchy as institutionalized sexism, and it works. Violence from the state or from a partner is all about power and control, so with Natasha's example gaslighting does take place.
the Changeling title is most likely referring to the Scottish folklore where women would take their disabled children to the forest to give them back to the fairies as they believed that their bodies had been stolen or changed by them. I believe they would return the baby in hopes the fairies would have mercy and return them to "normal" humans. According to sources it unfortunately was a real practice. Love your videos Dr. Kirk!
..."Am I losing my mind?...I feel like, I knew, once, how to judge the world and now...do I know... am I going, crazy?....did I forget that??? I swear, that's what happened??!...maybe...maybe, I'm not good at...."
Dr. Kirk, just articulated the feelings and thoughts running through, my head, almost everyday - my entire life. 😑
Not a bad definition. I agree the definition changing over time. Or are confusing general lying with gaslighting.
I would've thought I couldn't be gaslit. I was wrong. It takes a long time to recover and trust and you have to check in with yourself a lot.
I like the plutonium lighting example to explain institutionalized gaslighting. We should make that term a thing.
I agree! Especially cause it mirrors so many real examples of environmental racism
If anybody remembers Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Connelly in "He's Not That Into You", they were a married couple and not only was he lying to her because he was cheating on her with Scarlett Johansen, he was smoking on the sly and would hide the cigarettes in the house and when she found them, he convinced her they weren't his. I would call that gaslighting.
Agree.
That sounds more like Shame lying than gaslighting. He was trying to cover up not necessarily intentionally distorting her reality to cause her to go insane and be subservient to him.
Thank you for doing this topic!!!! This is so important.
I think the “Changeling” title is an allusion to the folkloric idea of a lookalike supernatural entity being substituted into a family for a human child by fairies or pixies or whatever kind of sneaky mythical creatures are local. Maybe it was a bad title for marketing, but I don’t think it’s a bad cultural reference.
Isn’t the Martha Mitchell effect exactly what was done to Christine Collins, i.e. silencing a truth teller by discrediting the person as emotionally troubled?
this is true :)
Whoa. Berto could teach a master class on gaslighting.
Really interesting that you mentioned how gaslighting is almost always connected with abusive behavior and then brought up the DC snipper attacks....the "You're Wrong About" podcast did a great episode on the attacks and covered how way before them, John Allen Muhammad was EXTREMELY abusive to his wife. In fact it's suspected his entire motive was originally to murder his ex-wife, and the other shootings would make it appear she was just another random victim. It's obviously complicated, but I see Lee Boyd Malvo as much more of a victim in the whole situation.
Agree. I'm not sure it was safe to have him out in the world after his extensive brainwashing but he was also a victim.
I have been a victim of this from my daughter in law who disowned all her family and mine except I stand by my son. If not for him I would have had her charged with elder abuse years ago.
Marking 56:00 for reference cause that percentage example is extremely useful
I would agree with the cheaper treatment is a focus for doctors but also less invasive treatment/ tests for the patient.
Doctors are often told to utilise Occam's razor and "when you hear hoofbeats think of horses not zebras". This also slightly conflicts with the change in medical messaging to go to a doctor with early warning signs and changing perception that medicine is more about management and prevention, not just about emergencies.
I get very frustrated on people's behalf hearing the medical ones- anxiety and depression are also symptoms not just causes and I think once emergency cause is ruled out they can defer treating people who may really need help- but alot of people are already at that point when they walk in the door.
I think the onus is on the patient to advocate for themselves alot.
Thank you so much for making this video! Stonewalling would be another great one to discuss as well.
Not sure if you mentioned this but Hitchcock's "Dial M for Murder" is another great example of gaslighting.
Will there be an episode on the Allen v Farrow documentary?
Thank you for this!
Just wanted to make a movie tip regarding the Stockholm syndrome/bank robbery. Check out "Dog Day Afternoon" from 1975 with Al Pacino. :)
I was a medic in the Army several years ago during OIF. There were legit sexual assaults and there were also false reporting of sexual assaults too. The army's way to protect soldiers against both types was to make sure that people did not wander around alone. They encouraged all soldiers to never be alone. Even male soldiers. That way there would always be witnesses. The military took sexual assault very seriously actually. I was a female medic during wartime and I often got attached to infantry units to do certain civil affairs missions. Basically Iraqi culture made it absolutely necessary for female medics to go on these missions in order to respect the culture of Iraqi women- meaning having female medics, physicians, and guards available. I never went alone without at least another female soldier (we called them battle buddies)- Also female medics had to be returned to base. Or the Commanders of these missions almost always returned us to base- meaning we did not sleep among the infantry without proper accommodations. Adultery is illegal in the military. And fraternization is highly discouraged. Of course all fraternization can not be stopped (or adultery). But I can say there has been some cases where rape has been accused falsely when infidelity is a part of equation. The buddy system was put on ALL soldiers. I think that needed to be cleared up. This helps protect women and men equally. From sexual assault and accusations. As a female soldier I was always treated with dignity and respect, even among infantry soldiers. I never got the feeling that I was treated as a slut or that I was weak. I remained professional at all times and received the respect I deserved most of the time. The few times I did not, was always when I was sent on some missions with other female soldiers who did not remain professional, were flirtatious and forgot their military bearing. There were sine female soldiers that made the military extremely hard for other female soldiers. It was extremely terrible and this really upset me when I was in the military. I tried mentor female soldiers all the time about the importance of professionalism at all times. Also the importance that ALL soldiers utilize the buddy system. Even some doctors insist on chaperones for their own protection as well as putting their patient at ease. This was the reason for this buddy system in the military. It had nothing to do with not trusting women or men or not believing us or blaming us. Not at all.
I know that this was not the focus of this podcast and usually I to not pipe in, but I felt it was really important to explain that correctly. Like Dr. Honda said. Sexual assaults will occur, but the military does make a significant attempt to lessen it and train and educate their personnel on ways to guard against it as much as possible. I feel like half my military career was spent in such meetings and seminars. We literally had EO and Sexual Harassment and Assault Prevention training every other few weeks. Even while deployed during wartime (in theatre). I am no longer in the military. I have been out since 2011, but my son is currently serving. He mentions the training and prevention briefings are still constant. Which is as it should be. It pleases me to hear that.
For years I’ve been gaslighted even by my own parent. Still to this day I’m being gas lighted when I know the truth ! I put up with it because of the love I hav for him. I never want any harm to him but the more I accept the more I die inside! I want to die because I’m tired but I’m still here fighting because one day my day will come where I won’t have to worry because my partner is the truth
What? Your partner or your parent? I m so confused after reading your comment.
I'm sorry. It isn't okay to continue to be abused, especially when it's affecting you at a fundamental level. Sometimes people are too toxic to be in our lives. We can love them better from afar.
You might wanna look into that Stockholm syndrome's validity.
I remember reading (and listening? maybe multiple times?) in whatever feminist page/yt I follow.
It was revisited?
and turned out it was just conclusion of a single doctor/police inspector - combo? ... how they? (who were sexist) talked _about_ her, and dismissed her when she was negating their interpretations...
Lot of "?" because my memory is foggy*, I just vaguely remember anything but conclusion that it was all bs.
(would *that* be gaslighting, similar to that mother/not her son police acting...?)
maybe do an episode on it - if you find what I'm saying to be true.
*chronic illness/fatigue brain fog, scrolling & shallow reading a lot.
The changeling thing is from Irish folk lore, check it out, makes way more sense in that context…
Not the point of the episode but there is a pretty great 80s horror (if say its more of an exploration of grief) named The Changeling.
It's definitely worth checking out
Ha. He started this post with that story.
So how are we supposed to know if it’s intentional?
Regarding the attack of the woman and the subsequent poor response, how about calling it “systematic abuse and victim-blaming”? Those who are in the driver’s seat do not always find it comfortable or convenient to deal objectively and justly with situations where they lack appreciation, understanding, empathy for the victim. In fact, sometimes contempt for the victim is an underlying factor that inhibits, or even obstructs objectivity and justice. This is just one of many facets of the abuse of power.
Im so annoyed when people on Reddit just use this word on every single conflict.
Even for general lying. Although when used appropriately there are also people who will tell you it's not the correct word.
I only run into this term in relationships when pointing out an issue in the other person. They'll say "you're gaslighting me" just another psychobabble term added to the lexicon to allow people to shield themselves from self improvement
If you've heard this in relationships repeatedly, and it sounds like by more than one person, then it's possible you are in fact gaslighting. You dismissing a term for something so destructive "psychobabble" is gaslighting.
Literally.
@@asunnywebb funny that the most stable girlfriend I've had has never said this to me. Maybe keep your judgements to yourself
*Also you're gaslighting me, see how easy that is?
I'm guessing its called changling in regards to a Celtics (I think) folklore that ferries would steal your child and switch them for a changling. When this case happened im pretty sure a people were speculating that they thought it was case of that.. not 100 percent sure on any of that though don't quote me lmao
I think changeling is a reference to Scottish Fairey changeling. Where fairies steal children and replace them with faries
Ended on the perfect note 😂
Dr. Kirk's idea about what happened in the Catholic church is so innocent. They didn't have to decide for themselves what to do when there was a report of child rape, it was official policy.
Content Warning: massive institutional child abuse:
You said one of the things they wanted was to protect children, but if that were true they wouldn't have sold children. An Irish baby in the 70s was worth about 1000 dollars to the Catholic church, they sold them to families in the US who couldn't have children and who didn't know the child had been kidnapped. They kidnapped and enslaved pregnant women with the help of police, if they managed to escape the police would bring them back. So they worked for free and weren't allowed leave and then once they gave birth their babies were taken from them and often they had to continue working.
These institutions also didn't take good care of the children and countless babies were buried in unmarked graves around the country. To this day people are fighting in the courts to force the Catholic church to let them look for the mass graves so that they can give the children a proper burial, but they refuse to allow it because when the mass grave in Tuam was discovered it was a massive controversy that they had killed 796 babies and then not buried them in consecrated ground.
Parts of this system were still ongoing in Ireland in the 21st century, and even now in 2021 they refuse to let the adopted children know the identities of their mothers, many of whom never wanted to give them up and had them stolen from them, because if you weren't married you had no right to your own baby and would be imprisoned. Most of the women went to their graves not knowing whether their babies had grown up in orphanages where all of the children were being abused and many were being sexually abused, been adopted by a married couple, been sold to a family in America, or died and been buried in a mass grave.
Here on the first minute! Love you guys!
Great video!!!
Evolving language; the reason irregardless is in the dictionary now... sigh
That is triggering for me. Literally. Ha.
I know what happened, Donald Trump happened.
He’s gone now thank god...
Unrelated to the video but can you react to Demi Lovato's new documentary on TH-cam?
Just saw the movie 😳 omg
If you have been subjected to Gaslighting, then it is quite easy to get out of this using different types of gaslighting spell techniques.
Third!
GameCrook is working but I don't know how.