River razors are amazing. One day I will get one, at least in my dreams lol. I have no idea what they cost, so saving for one is kind of difficult. As always, thank you for your knowledge.
Wonderful video Greg , your explanations are invaluable and incisive. Wish I'd have known more when i started, biggest mistake i made was overhoning on the very finest stones , i one put 0ne hundred laps on a 20k Suehiro, the edge was so fatigued it chipped almost instantly . Lesson learned , go down from course and medium , but never use high grit stones to remove steel . The apex is everything. The bevel polish im not bothered with .
Nice vid. Good talk. Some thoughts: 1) Shapton recommendations for a more limited progression are somewhat negated by the common practices of jointing or compound beveling using tape. Individuals with a desire to have a high polish bevel angle could apply either and have less chance of an over-honed condition. 2) I did not like diamond abrasives (paste or emulsion) compared to cBN. I tested quite a few to mitigate higher cost and limited availability of cBN, an keep returning to cBN 3) I have one nanocloth on glass that I loaded with 0.1µ cBN and have not seen it perform as well on the edge compared to balsa, but I think it does polish the full bevel better. Best regards.
_Shapton recommendations for a more limited progression are somewhat negated by the common practices of jointing or compound beveling using tape._ The Shapton recommendations come from one sentence in a FAQ. Personally, I give them no credence, but thought it would be interesting to discuss abrasion rate from that perspective. _I tested quite a few to mitigate higher cost and limited availability of cBN_ How did you test? What did you measure? _I have one nanocloth on glass that I loaded with 0.1µ cBN and have not seen it perform as well on the edge compared to balsa_ How are you comparing performance? Shave test? Humans, apparently have tactile feel down to 10nm, but this is determined under very controlled conditions and was a statistical result.
@@greggallant5058 On cBN vs. diamond, it would be a subjective opinion. I worked on identical balsa strops with abrasives at the same given publicized particle sizes. My conclusion was that most would never know the difference, and if the cBN supply dries up for me, I could get by with diamond. There was no visual difference by the best magnification on hand. It did seem cBN worked faster and gave me a smoother shave feel. It is one of those things where either hits the bullseye, but which one is closest to center. On nanocloth vs balsa, same razors, same abrasive. Again, an uncalibrated opinion of the amount of force needed to penetrate packing peanuts. I used to go from 0.1µ balsa to 0.1 cBN as a matter of accepting general thoughts that nanocloth on glass was the ideal substrate on which to apply stropping abrasives. It was not until I found packing peanuts preferable to grapes or tomatoes as incremental evaluations that I started seeing a lower performance from nanocloth. I actually never tried the shave test on this one, but now you have me thinking that maybe I am jumping to a conclusion and that I should do that physical evaluation. Might be another, how close to center of the bullseye.
Thanks for recognizing that my questions were not stated with a challenging tone. I'm genuinely interested in your point of view. As you know CBN is man made, and has a crystalline structure very close to diamond. The major difference between CBN and diamond is hardness but that difference is not significant for our application. The only other difference is that CBN can be used in very high temperature grinding and tolerates that better than diamond. Other than that, if they are applied to the same type of surface with the same particle density and same binding material, they _should_ work identically as abrasives. Almost all of my nanocloth is from Ken Schwartz. As you may know, he liked long phone conversations. We talked about nanocloth and very fine grained sub-micron emulsions quite a bit. He was a big fan of them. I was not then, and am still not now. But I loved Ken's enthusiasm for these things and bought them so I could speak with him from a position of experience. My position on nanocloth is that it operates more like a slurry than a strop. The material gives as you move through it and there isn't enough compliance to the glass (or plastic in the case of Jende) to help micro-convex the apex [ ever wonder why I have this insane microscope? 😁]. Edges stropped on materials like balsa and leather get the benefit of a micro-convexed apex. For me, the micro-convexed apex feels smoother - less harsh - and still cuts extraordinarily well. So, my own, _biased,_ opinion is that strop materials like balsa or leather produce more comfortable shaving edges.
@@greggallant5058 I actually cannot be sure if I am micro-convexing or not on balsa since mine all contain the typical crowning of the Jarrod invention. I stropped on flattened balsa till well after I started my pursuits with shaped stones. I did a few strops with the crowning, liked it and went from there. One could equate the use of multiple curves in the hollowing of the bevel as being much the same as micro-beveling. I probably would not disagree since both target abrasion energy to a smaller portion near the edge. I read much from Ken Schwartz (RIP), and would certainly agree on his passion for this kind of stuff. I believe a number of the things I continue to use were his introductions at CKTG. cBN and Roo strops being primary. I wish I could get a nice sized piece of that same Roo. Got a piece of roo hide, but it wasn’t to my liking. We are close enough in distance, one day we should share a lunch together and enjoy ourselves yakking away over sharpening stuff. Best regards.
@@billm.2677 The material in the strops you use (even balsa) has some "give". I think you are probably getting some micro-beveling due to this. And I agree that using multiple curves will have a multi-grind effect at the bevel. _one day we should share a lunch together_ At some point, I'll join TSC and we can set this up. Sounds fun to me!
@@PeterEndelt Yes, definitely. Boris is an excellent sharpener in addition to being a superb razor maker. His edge was very sharp. That is my preference.
@@PeterEndelt That’s great! You won’t regret it. There is a very vintage feel to Boris’ razors. That’s not an accident. He is very careful with his choice of steel, its temper, and its grind. If his edge happens to be too sharp for you, you can do stropping passes on linen and leather until it becomes more comfortable.
This guy knows his stuff 100%
River razors are amazing. One day I will get one, at least in my dreams lol. I have no idea what they cost, so saving for one is kind of difficult.
As always, thank you for your knowledge.
Great video thanks Greg 😉👏
happy shaving Greg!
Super info 🙏🙏🙏
Wonderful video Greg , your explanations are invaluable and incisive. Wish I'd have known more when i started, biggest mistake i made was overhoning on the very finest stones , i one put 0ne hundred laps on a 20k Suehiro, the edge was so fatigued it chipped almost instantly . Lesson learned , go down from course and medium , but never use high grit stones to remove steel . The apex is everything. The bevel polish im not bothered with .
Nice vid. Good talk.
Some thoughts:
1) Shapton recommendations for a more limited progression are somewhat negated by the common practices of jointing or compound beveling using tape. Individuals with a desire to have a high polish bevel angle could apply either and have less chance of an over-honed condition.
2) I did not like diamond abrasives (paste or emulsion) compared to cBN. I tested quite a few to mitigate higher cost and limited availability of cBN, an keep returning to cBN
3) I have one nanocloth on glass that I loaded with 0.1µ cBN and have not seen it perform as well on the edge compared to balsa, but I think it does polish the full bevel better.
Best regards.
_Shapton recommendations for a more limited progression are somewhat negated by the common practices of jointing or compound beveling using tape._
The Shapton recommendations come from one sentence in a FAQ. Personally, I give them no credence, but thought it would be interesting to discuss abrasion rate from that perspective.
_I tested quite a few to mitigate higher cost and limited availability of cBN_
How did you test? What did you measure?
_I have one nanocloth on glass that I loaded with 0.1µ cBN and have not seen it perform as well on the edge compared to balsa_
How are you comparing performance? Shave test? Humans, apparently have tactile feel down to 10nm, but this is determined under very controlled conditions and was a statistical result.
@@greggallant5058
On cBN vs. diamond, it would be a subjective opinion. I worked on identical balsa strops with abrasives at the same given publicized particle sizes. My conclusion was that most would never know the difference, and if the cBN supply dries up for me, I could get by with diamond. There was no visual difference by the best magnification on hand. It did seem cBN worked faster and gave me a smoother shave feel. It is one of those things where either hits the bullseye, but which one is closest to center.
On nanocloth vs balsa, same razors, same abrasive. Again, an uncalibrated opinion of the amount of force needed to penetrate packing peanuts. I used to go from 0.1µ balsa to 0.1 cBN as a matter of accepting general thoughts that nanocloth on glass was the ideal substrate on which to apply stropping abrasives. It was not until I found packing peanuts preferable to grapes or tomatoes as incremental evaluations that I started seeing a lower performance from nanocloth. I actually never tried the shave test on this one, but now you have me thinking that maybe I am jumping to a conclusion and that I should do that physical evaluation. Might be another, how close to center of the bullseye.
Thanks for recognizing that my questions were not stated with a challenging tone. I'm genuinely interested in your point of view.
As you know CBN is man made, and has a crystalline structure very close to diamond. The major difference between CBN and diamond is hardness but that difference is not significant for our application. The only other difference is that CBN can be used in very high temperature grinding and tolerates that better than diamond. Other than that, if they are applied to the same type of surface with the same particle density and same binding material, they _should_ work identically as abrasives.
Almost all of my nanocloth is from Ken Schwartz. As you may know, he liked long phone conversations. We talked about nanocloth and very fine grained sub-micron emulsions quite a bit. He was a big fan of them. I was not then, and am still not now. But I loved Ken's enthusiasm for these things and bought them so I could speak with him from a position of experience.
My position on nanocloth is that it operates more like a slurry than a strop. The material gives as you move through it and there isn't enough compliance to the glass (or plastic in the case of Jende) to help micro-convex the apex [ ever wonder why I have this insane microscope? 😁]. Edges stropped on materials like balsa and leather get the benefit of a micro-convexed apex. For me, the micro-convexed apex feels smoother - less harsh - and still cuts extraordinarily well. So, my own, _biased,_ opinion is that strop materials like balsa or leather produce more comfortable shaving edges.
@@greggallant5058
I actually cannot be sure if I am micro-convexing or not on balsa since mine all contain the typical crowning of the Jarrod invention. I stropped on flattened balsa till well after I started my pursuits with shaped stones. I did a few strops with the crowning, liked it and went from there.
One could equate the use of multiple curves in the hollowing of the bevel as being much the same as micro-beveling. I probably would not disagree since both target abrasion energy to a smaller portion near the edge.
I read much from Ken Schwartz (RIP), and would certainly agree on his passion for this kind of stuff. I believe a number of the things I continue to use were his introductions at CKTG. cBN and Roo strops being primary. I wish I could get a nice sized piece of that same Roo. Got a piece of roo hide, but it wasn’t to my liking.
We are close enough in distance, one day we should share a lunch together and enjoy ourselves yakking away over sharpening stuff. Best regards.
@@billm.2677 The material in the strops you use (even balsa) has some "give". I think you are probably getting some micro-beveling due to this. And I agree that using multiple curves will have a multi-grind effect at the bevel.
_one day we should share a lunch together_
At some point, I'll join TSC and we can set this up. Sounds fun to me!
Hi Greg
Was the River razor a nice shave?
Regards from Denmark 🇩🇰
Peter
@@PeterEndelt Yes, definitely. Boris is an excellent sharpener in addition to being a superb razor maker. His edge was very sharp. That is my preference.
@@greggallant5058 Next month i will get my razor from Boris and cant wait 😄😄😄
@@PeterEndelt That’s great! You won’t regret it. There is a very vintage feel to Boris’ razors. That’s not an accident. He is very careful with his choice of steel, its temper, and its grind.
If his edge happens to be too sharp for you, you can do stropping passes on linen and leather until it becomes more comfortable.
@@greggallant5058Thanks for advice 👍