The fire shelters the Granite Mountain Hotshots were 98-100% de-laminated from direct flames of a 2,000 degree fire. That's just to show extreme the conditions were.
But that is the problem with all fires. They are unpredictable. The idea of the shelter should only be considered as a last resort. My concern with watching some of these wild fire videos is that the whole science and mind-set is wrong. I can appreciate that if a town is in the direct path of a fire that YOU are going to want to do everything to put out that fire. Unfortunately, flames are not little creatures with arms and legs that say 'goofy' things. But they do have a mind of their own and they should be treated as the devils own brood. Abandoning the area shouldn't be a last resort. Safety should be the first. a) Know your plan of escape... b) Consider alternative plans of escape in case your first choice becomes blocked. c) study the topography of the area that is on fire... d) consider wind speed and wind direction. Even in this training video we saw how the wind can swirl those flames from one direction to another. It is indeed like watching crazy imps dancing. e) Consider the possible path the fire will take and how you plan to escape. f) all firefighters have a duty of care to their own well-being which takes priority over the need to be a hero. g) all firefighters have a duty of care to their fellow fire-team and each team needs to keep in constant contact with one another at all times. h) at all times the entire lay of the fire should be monitored and from the air. Any movement in direction, speed and height needs to be taken into account.
@@KebabMusicLtd they had all that covered pretty much. And these guys where very seasoned veterans knew what they where doing. This video th-cam.com/video/cSxSqjRmxIE/w-d-xo.html has great info on this and shows how the wind speed up the flames quicker then expected and remember they have like 60-80 lbs or more of gear moving quickly over rocky terrain is not even feasible. This is just a tragic event that shows how dangerous that job is.
There were many lessons to be learnt from all these tragic fires, lookouts are vital, don't get yourself in a position that impossible to get quickly out of, speak up if your concerned, always have a blackened out, dry earth or wet spot in mind if you can't run to safety, drop you pack & carry only your tool and shelter, be spatially aware its easy to loose sight of the monster barrelling up behind you when you so focused on the task, leave early its bush, its grows back leaving to late is when things go wrong quickly ...
Moral of the test: Make sure you always have good situational awarness, lookouts, know where the safety zone is, good communication and a escape route. So, you won't have to deploy your shelter.
@beccaboard That is the kind that they crawl in and cover themselves with. A tent would take a while longer to set up. And not just Hotshots crews are trained to deploy that fast. All woodland firefighters are.
Yarnell Hill Fire ? They had the new shelters and 19 People in the shelters died... We have to learn more about heat and fire defense, to protect our heros while they are trying to Help us. We should work out a new fire shelter, Which is 100% surviveble... I hope u english guys understand what i mean ... Lets start working. Always remeber our 19 dead Heros, Who gave their life for us...
I think that case was unique due to wind and fuel conditions. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on a flimsy aluminum silica sheet. If the heat doesn’t get you suffocation may.
With the guy said there at the end is totally different than what was taught to me when I was in training. We were led to believe that our shelters would protect us from just about anything and the only reason we would ever need them is if we screwed up doing our job. Personally I think the way they trained us was to get rid of the fear. Basically they said as long as you do your job correctly everything will be fine but in case you do screw up or if something never before seen happens your shelter will protect you. There were guys on my crew that truly believed nothing could happen to them because of the shelter. I don't know that I agree with this kind of training where I can understand it will suppress the natural fear of Fire it also makes you lose the respect for it that keeps you safe and that's when bad decisions are made and good men die
So you are a firefighter and get surrounded by flames, you are to broil to death in one of these as a last ditch effort? How long are you supposed to stay hunkered down?
+Diabolik771 You may not broil to death if you do it right, these things save lives. The more nomex you got the better off you'll be inside, everyone tells me that you'll most likely come out with burns. You stay hunkered down until someone tells you you're safe, whether its by radio or someone come finds you, and they will everyone will be looking for you. When in doubt wait it out. Firefighters have died because they got out of the shelter too early and a second flame front kills em.
Think of the fire shelter as a personal flotation device used while boating. It is an inconvenient, uncomfortable, last resort safety tool that you are better off having and using if needed, than not. And it is used as long as necessary.
It's mostly protection from heat. Heat in wildfires can be really high close to the flames (not inside them) and most of deaths occur because of breathing hot air. These things are not really designed to withstand the direct flames. If you end up in a situation like that, you can kiss your ass goodbye.
you wait until you are found. when I was trained with shelters the instructor talked about a guy who had to deploy one. The urge to just pull the shelter up and run is strong, but if you lift that flap and the superheated air gets in there your lungs cook. It reminds me of the gom jabbar test in Frank Herbert's "Dune". The pain must be unbearable, but the alternative is certain death.
They NEED Aerogel in these. Then it'll be damn near 99% survivable. Aerogel is the lightest solid in the world and one can have it on your hand and have a blow torch directly on it without burning you. Hopefully it comes down in price soon enough.
They should supply a jar of the fire gel human torch stunts are done with. If the Firefighters knew shelter deployment was inevitable and there was time, they could spread the gel on vulnerable areas.
Aerogel is inflexible and brittle. The liquid gel takes time to apply, and would need to be on the outside of the shelter to be effective. The liquid gel is just, water gel.
This brings the question... why use them? The tactics need to be changed and fire shelters need to be scrapped. Other places, like Canada, don’t use fire shelters and their fire fatality rate is far lower than the United States’ fire fatality rate. It’s because they use different tactics that don’t put them in danger. They also couldn’t deploy because of the foliage. It’s been well known for awhile now that giving forest fire fighters extra protective gear dulls the person’s senses and increases the chance of the firefighter putting themselves into harms way. Knowing you have a fire shelter will make you perform riskier actions than knowing you don’t have one. Only different is that having one needs to be deployed perfectly in order for it to work.
Why use them!? Have you listened to how many people have survived because of them??? Good Lord, you'd give up. Glad you're not a hot spot crew member. Use them, they have a better rate of survivors than fatalities. People can't make Granite Mountain incident the norm. That was the worst situation, in the worst location, with the worst fire circumstances possible. I'd rather my loved one have one and use it than just say, "oh why use it, I'm just going to die anyway." Geez... some people...
570: most likely not survivable 569: most likely survivable I do not know why he says “most likely” if it should be straight up not survivable around those temps
Because Strange things can happen ! Most single Bullet wounds are very Dangerous to your survival yet there are people that survived 10 + Bullet wounds and dozens of shrapnel wounds.
The Fire Shelter is designed to be as light as possible and as a last ditch effort to give firefighters the best chance to survive the oncoming flame-front. Fire Retardand is water based, and would add a lot of weight to the kit required to be packed around by the firefighter.
I think that if I saw a fire coming at me my adrenaline would be pumping hard enough that I could beat Usein Bolt. I don’t think I could stay inside a shelter designed for only 500* when the fire coming is throwing plumes 30,000 feet in the air. Why aren’t they built better?
These things need to be made better so what happened to Granite Mountain IHC never happens again. Those poor guys cooked alive you can only pray the super heated gases killed them before the fire did
I have been reading about that day and individual autopsies and they really did cook, and they were conscious thru enough of it to have suffered a great deal. While I was researching I prayed that I would find they were quickly unconscious and sadly, that was not the case. RIP, heroes.
@Rasta Xde so something that has been used at 17,500 mph burning for 20 minutes that never had a problem until its last flight with missing black tile is safer than a foil blanket that been burning and killing more hotshots in a day than all the astronauts in 50 years. Thanks for your input. You be that person calling for a lifeguard for a house fire.
Results from experimental shelters? Tiles from space shuttles can they not be made thin enough and lightweight to protect life? Wildland firefighters get paid crap wages and have to work ot to make a liveable wage. No life is worth land. Land, structure can be rebuilt re forested human life cannot. You all know this. Money is the driving factor along with administration of these entities in control managing wildfires. Thank you to all wildland fighters that risk everything every time you respond. Respect n honor to you.
Well if that didn't make your blood run cold with fear nothing would, Ive experience several hundred degree temps in kevlar PPE as a structural fire fighter, damm its hot couldn't imagine being in just pants and a shirt under one of those...why aren't they designing fire retardant shirts and make hoods and shrouds mandatory gear...I have a hood with me at all times, its saved me from life threatening burns so many times and just purchased welders kevlar arm guards ... better designs are needed that ratio isn't good and it doesn't include those that survived with burns, that statistic would be interesting
It is almost certain, yes. A larger safety zone would have limited the ability of the flame front to make direct contact with their shelters. How large it would have needed to be for it to have saved them is definitely up for debate. It is worth mentioning that I have seen a couple videos by amatuer meteorologists who put forward a theory that the wind conditions caused by the boundary layer of the storm that took place not only caused the fire to run toward them, but also caused the fire, once it was on top of them, to flare up worse then has ever been seen before in a deployment scenario. I will try to find the video that shows this and link it in an edit. Video Link: th-cam.com/video/IP_2wWqTisU/w-d-xo.html
Being inside one is like being inside an oven filled with smoke. It doesn’t take many testimonials to learn that it’s an incredibly uncomfortable experience. Also, chances are really good you’ll get some type of burn.
It's crazy to me that these aren't standard for Australian homes/cars. They seem as important as a hose. I've never heard of them, yet I live in a bushfire prone area. I don't think our fires are more intense than other countries.
after watching for 7 minutes you realized the us forest service bungled the whole test. they tested if metal frames would survive inside a shelter that a gubment cheese suckilin' civil servant set up with no regard to leaving giant flame sized gaps under the edge of the shelter in this keeping out flames test
The fire shelters the Granite Mountain Hotshots were 98-100% de-laminated from direct flames of a 2,000 degree fire. That's just to show extreme the conditions were.
But that is the problem with all fires. They are unpredictable. The idea of the shelter should only be considered as a last resort. My concern with watching some of these wild fire videos is that the whole science and mind-set is wrong. I can appreciate that if a town is in the direct path of a fire that YOU are going to want to do everything to put out that fire. Unfortunately, flames are not little creatures with arms and legs that say 'goofy' things. But they do have a mind of their own and they should be treated as the devils own brood. Abandoning the area shouldn't be a last resort. Safety should be the first.
a) Know your plan of escape...
b) Consider alternative plans of escape in case your first choice becomes blocked.
c) study the topography of the area that is on fire...
d) consider wind speed and wind direction. Even in this training video we saw how the wind can swirl those flames from one direction to another. It is indeed like watching crazy imps dancing.
e) Consider the possible path the fire will take and how you plan to escape.
f) all firefighters have a duty of care to their own well-being which takes priority over the need to be a hero.
g) all firefighters have a duty of care to their fellow fire-team and each team needs to keep in constant contact with one another at all times.
h) at all times the entire lay of the fire should be monitored and from the air. Any movement in direction, speed and height needs to be taken into account.
Another possibility is that the poor fellas got too hot and once they couldnt hold the shelter down everything was cremated
@@Hyper_4ever 2200
@@KebabMusicLtd they had all that covered pretty much. And these guys where very seasoned veterans knew what they where doing. This video
th-cam.com/video/cSxSqjRmxIE/w-d-xo.html
has great info on this and shows how the wind speed up the flames quicker then expected and remember they have like 60-80 lbs or more of gear moving quickly over rocky terrain is not even feasible. This is just a tragic event that shows how dangerous that job is.
There were many lessons to be learnt from all these tragic fires, lookouts are vital, don't get yourself in a position that impossible to get quickly out of, speak up if your concerned, always have a blackened out, dry earth or wet spot in mind if you can't run to safety, drop you pack & carry only your tool and shelter, be spatially aware its easy to loose sight of the monster barrelling up behind you when you so focused on the task, leave early its bush, its grows back leaving to late is when things go wrong quickly ...
Moral of the test: Make sure you always have good situational awarness, lookouts, know where the safety zone is, good communication and a escape route. So, you won't have to deploy your shelter.
We can put people in space ..we can design affordable 100% survivable shelters.
Lol... people with your mindset are insufferable
NASA doesn't know or doesn't care ?
Independent Realist 2,000 degrees what do you suggest?
@@petelebu NASA knows, they're testing new ones out in Alberta.
@@tarheelblue63nc25 There is no reasonable defense other than not being there.
5:52 can you imagine if that was the last thing you saw?
You don't see that, they bury their face in the ground
The camera fireproof box is even better than the 1st gen fire shelter 😅
Only The Brave
I’m sitting here thinking what could be done to have a higher survival rate and I can’t think of nothing, bless whoever has to go thru this
My respects to all firefighters 🚒
Here Here.
under the fire shelter use a fire blanket if you want to raise your chance of survival
Put up that tent like shelter, and then deploy a modern one around your body inside the tent shelter. That should be highly survivable.
Michael Caplin not enought time to do that
No.
@@mariaanne4717 The Hotshots train to have their shelters on in down on the ground in 30 secs.
@beccaboard That is the kind that they crawl in and cover themselves with. A tent would take a while longer to set up. And not just Hotshots crews are trained to deploy that fast. All woodland firefighters are.
Yarnell Hill Fire ? They had the new shelters and 19 People in the shelters died... We have to learn more about heat and fire defense, to protect our heros while they are trying to Help us. We should work out a new fire shelter, Which is 100% surviveble... I hope u english guys understand what i mean ... Lets start working. Always remeber our 19 dead Heros, Who gave their life for us...
@@cbot375 sad
I think that case was unique due to wind and fuel conditions. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on a flimsy aluminum silica sheet. If the heat doesn’t get you suffocation may.
The reason they died is due to the fact the fire was hotter than what the shelters could stand
With the guy said there at the end is totally different than what was taught to me when I was in training. We were led to believe that our shelters would protect us from just about anything and the only reason we would ever need them is if we screwed up doing our job. Personally I think the way they trained us was to get rid of the fear. Basically they said as long as you do your job correctly everything will be fine but in case you do screw up or if something never before seen happens your shelter will protect you. There were guys on my crew that truly believed nothing could happen to them because of the shelter. I don't know that I agree with this kind of training where I can understand it will suppress the natural fear of Fire it also makes you lose the respect for it that keeps you safe and that's when bad decisions are made and good men die
So you are a firefighter and get surrounded by flames, you are to broil to death in one of these as a last ditch effort? How long are you supposed to stay hunkered down?
+Diabolik771
You may not broil to death if you do it right, these things save lives. The more nomex you got the better off you'll be inside, everyone tells me that you'll most likely come out with burns. You stay hunkered down until someone tells you you're safe, whether its by radio or someone come finds you, and they will everyone will be looking for you. When in doubt wait it out. Firefighters have died because they got out of the shelter too early and a second flame front kills em.
You prefer going without?
Think of the fire shelter as a personal flotation device used while boating. It is an inconvenient, uncomfortable, last resort safety tool that you are better off having and using if needed, than not. And it is used as long as necessary.
It's mostly protection from heat. Heat in wildfires can be really high close to the flames (not inside them) and most of deaths occur because of breathing hot air. These things are not really designed to withstand the direct flames. If you end up in a situation like that, you can kiss your ass goodbye.
you wait until you are found. when I was trained with shelters the instructor talked about a guy who had to deploy one. The urge to just pull the shelter up and run is strong, but if you lift that flap and the superheated air gets in there your lungs cook. It reminds me of the gom jabbar test in Frank Herbert's "Dune". The pain must be unbearable, but the alternative is certain death.
They NEED Aerogel in these. Then it'll be damn near 99% survivable. Aerogel is the lightest solid in the world and one can have it on your hand and have a blow torch directly on it without burning you.
Hopefully it comes down in price soon enough.
They should supply a jar of the fire gel human torch stunts are done with. If the Firefighters knew shelter deployment was inevitable and there was time, they could spread the gel on vulnerable areas.
Aerogel is inflexible and brittle. The liquid gel takes time to apply, and would need to be on the outside of the shelter to be effective. The liquid gel is just, water gel.
Aerogel would be too bulky.
Can that stuff be coated on your lungs ...cause that's what will kill you not the burns
Rxonmymind how exactly do they get it on their bodies?
6:23 570 Degrees Fahrenheit is defeintily not survivable not most likely not survivable.
*definitely
A person could dig into the ground and breathe cooler air and and hold their breath and thats why it may be survivable
I cook sausage like this when camping
Cooking? Right?...Nothing like Shake 'n Bake!
Tony Petrilli survived the South Canyon FIre tragedy where 14 firefirghters were killed.
This brings the question... why use them? The tactics need to be changed and fire shelters need to be scrapped. Other places, like Canada, don’t use fire shelters and their fire fatality rate is far lower than the United States’ fire fatality rate. It’s because they use different tactics that don’t put them in danger. They also couldn’t deploy because of the foliage.
It’s been well known for awhile now that giving forest fire fighters extra protective gear dulls the person’s senses and increases the chance of the firefighter putting themselves into harms way. Knowing you have a fire shelter will make you perform riskier actions than knowing you don’t have one. Only different is that having one needs to be deployed perfectly in order for it to work.
Why use them!? Have you listened to how many people have survived because of them??? Good Lord, you'd give up. Glad you're not a hot spot crew member. Use them, they have a better rate of survivors than fatalities. People can't make Granite Mountain incident the norm. That was the worst situation, in the worst location, with the worst fire circumstances possible. I'd rather my loved one have one and use it than just say, "oh why use it, I'm just going to die anyway." Geez... some people...
570: most likely not survivable
569: most likely survivable
I do not know why he says “most likely” if it should be straight up not survivable around those temps
Because Strange things can happen ! Most single Bullet wounds are very Dangerous to your survival yet there are people that survived 10 + Bullet wounds and dozens of shrapnel wounds.
Why didn't you share the results of the newer test shelters?? I already knew what the next generation shelters do verses the old.
so if they were used 1100 times and 300 firefighters lives were saved that is a 73% failure rate.
Think someone by now, build a shelter with that red stuff that comes out of those planes...
The Fire Shelter is designed to be as light as possible and as a last ditch effort to give firefighters the best chance to survive the oncoming flame-front. Fire Retardand is water based, and would add a lot of weight to the kit required to be packed around by the firefighter.
Human skin is destroyed when temperatures reach 162 degrees.
I think that if I saw a fire coming at me my adrenaline would be pumping hard enough that I could beat Usein Bolt. I don’t think I could stay inside a shelter designed for only 500* when the fire coming is throwing plumes 30,000 feet in the air. Why aren’t they built better?
These things need to be made better so what happened to Granite Mountain IHC never happens again. Those poor guys cooked alive you can only pray the super heated gases killed them before the fire did
Provocateur wtf
I have been reading about that day and individual autopsies and they really did cook, and they were conscious thru enough of it to have suffered a great deal. While I was researching I prayed that I would find they were quickly unconscious and sadly, that was not the case. RIP, heroes.
I would not be the sitting duck I would run for my life
Bcs its meant to be used as a last resort...
Why did thi not work in Arizona at the Yarnell Hill Fire??? :C
That fire was too hot, it was over 2k degrees. The shelters delaminated
What about something lightweight and fits like a bulletproof vest made of the Thinner layer of the Black Tile on the space shuttle.... plus a shelter
@Rasta Xde so something that has been used at 17,500 mph burning for 20 minutes that never had a problem until its last flight with missing black tile is safer than a foil blanket that been burning and killing more hotshots in a day than all the astronauts in 50 years. Thanks for your input. You be that person calling for a lifeguard for a house fire.
Results from experimental shelters? Tiles from space shuttles can they not be made thin enough and lightweight to protect life? Wildland firefighters get paid crap wages and have to work ot to make a liveable wage. No life is worth land. Land, structure can be rebuilt re forested human life cannot. You all know this. Money is the driving factor along with administration of these entities in control managing wildfires. Thank you to all wildland fighters that risk everything every time you respond. Respect n honor to you.
Will it save me from the fire? Is it made by foil paper ?
Kazi Humayun Kabir looks to be a reflective metal, designed to reflect as much thermal radiation away from the interior.
What ever forest fire fighters and smoke jumpers are payed its not enough
Well if that didn't make your blood run cold with fear nothing would, Ive experience several hundred degree temps in kevlar PPE as a structural fire fighter, damm its hot couldn't imagine being in just pants and a shirt under one of those...why aren't they designing fire retardant shirts and make hoods and shrouds mandatory gear...I have a hood with me at all times, its saved me from life threatening burns so many times and just purchased welders kevlar arm guards ... better designs are needed that ratio isn't good and it doesn't include those that survived with burns, that statistic would be interesting
What space vehicles and space ships are not fire proof.
Anybody: What at higher wind speeds?
Ughhhh... now I want a baked potato....
With bacon and melted cheese, I suppose?
Weird. I’m watching this in Missoula MT lol
Would the Hotshots survived if they made a larger clearing around them?
It is almost certain, yes. A larger safety zone would have limited the ability of the flame front to make direct contact with their shelters. How large it would have needed to be for it to have saved them is definitely up for debate. It is worth mentioning that I have seen a couple videos by amatuer meteorologists who put forward a theory that the wind conditions caused by the boundary layer of the storm that took place not only caused the fire to run toward them, but also caused the fire, once it was on top of them, to flare up worse then has ever been seen before in a deployment scenario. I will try to find the video that shows this and link it in an edit.
Video Link: th-cam.com/video/IP_2wWqTisU/w-d-xo.html
These are the coolest things ever, as a guy who loves fire I want to try one so bad
Are coolest till you need to be inside one, believe you don't want to be inside one
Being inside one is like being inside an oven filled with smoke. It doesn’t take many testimonials to learn that it’s an incredibly uncomfortable experience. Also, chances are really good you’ll get some type of burn.
Thank god your not into guns
1. DIG hole in ground 2. Plate Metal hatch 3. 3M high air vent with latch ... any questions ?
What about no oxygen present? Carry a tank?
@@raymondfrye5017 oxy not an issue - JUST hot air so U need a latch on the air vent
Genius by Design how much time do they have?
@@tarheelblue63nc25 the months before next 1
You think 9 ft is enough clearance for fresh air lol. ? Are you in a grass fire or what lol
shake and bake
this does not work in a fire front. or in Australia cause our fires are 1000x more intense
Wrong, in Australia you have just about the same fuel types we have in America, doesn't mean they don't burn, in your words, "1000×" more intense.
It must be difficult for Australians to watch their 20 years of mortgage payments "go up in smoke".
It's crazy to me that these aren't standard for Australian homes/cars. They seem as important as a hose. I've never heard of them, yet I live in a bushfire prone area. I don't think our fires are more intense than other countries.
You clear out the brush and dig to gravel before you deploy, that way you are never in contact with direct flame.
didnt work for granite mountain hotshots did it.
wildfiretoday.com/2020/09/08/15-firefighters-on-dolan-fire-became-entrapped-by-the-fire-and-deployed-fire-shelters/
Do these field shelters protect you from burning falling trees
Absolutely not
The laminate would probably be punctured or torn - game over.
Not to mention that a tree just landed on you.
Yes the trees bounce off tinfoil sheet 🤣
2:15 why don't they just make the shelters out of the fire-proof camera box?
scwt89 I'm guessing it would be too heavy to carry and not mobile?
Bruh, they can't carry a whole box their size with them. It would reduce mobility
Well it didn’t help the granite mountain hot shots did it 😞
They trusted they could escape. The wind would not let them deploy. Cooked at 2000°F in 12 feet of chaparral.
Hello everyone
How and wow
Sure who wouldn’t want to burn alive in a tin foil tent ⛺️😏
Why would anyone downvote this?
Baked potato
Ever heard of BAKED POTATO?
after watching for 7 minutes you realized the us forest service bungled the whole test. they tested if metal frames would survive inside a shelter that a gubment cheese suckilin' civil servant set up with no regard to leaving giant flame sized gaps under the edge of the shelter in this keeping out flames test