I so loved the co-commentary of Rich Kruse (if I remember correctly) as expert on this tournament... Absolutely brilliant how he brings (actual) expertise and insights to the commentary!
[Description]: The Rio to Tokyo Olympic Cycle period saw USA as the most dominant team on the circuit. While Team USA were not able to win neither Rio nor Tokyo Olympic Games nor two of the three World Championships in that period, they made up for it by winning almost every World Cup in that cycle. Now it's Italy's turn. As normal for the season after the Olympics, every team have lost big hitters to retirement or a break. France lost Le Pechoux, while Mertine and Pauty seem to be on a break. For Team USA, Imboden is taking a break from competitions, while Meinhardt is probably easing off a little this season. The entirety of Team Russia is taking a break because their country invaded Ukraine. Japan hasn't lost anyone but Saito sucks and Matsuyama is mid again. Korea lost Lee. And Hong Kong is still operating on a two good fencers per competition basis. Meanwhile Italy has gone through big changes. First of all, Cerioni is head coach again. Now I don't know if Cerioni would have returned regardless, but maybe Cipressa's inability to bring back a mens team foil Olympic medal or choosing his daughter to go to the Olympics when there were two higher ranked Italian fencers (not counting DiFrancesca) at the time had something to do with that... Secondly, Italy has finally lost every member of the 2012 Olympic Team. The previous generation of - let's just hold out until Cassara saves us - has ended (though Cassara does want to go for Paris 2024). Avola has been pushed off the team too. And who replaced them - crazy frog and *vomits*... So Bianchi, I like watching Bianchi (sometimes), even though I think he's currently the weakest member of the four by far. But Marini, I really don't like watching Marini. Not saying that he's a bad fencer - in fact he's the current World No. 1 - but I just don't find being long an enjoyable style to watch. Regardless, if the Italians manage to fix Cassara or if Bianchi improves so more, it seems like Italy will be the most dominant player in this Olympic Season. Previous Match-ups - Italy beating USA at World Champs Finals is just a classic at this point: 2012 London Olympics Semifinal - Italy blows up USA in the semis - as to be expected, USA were young and Italy were the favorites 2013 Budapest WCH Final - USA has a huge comeback in the semis against France, but the team was young and half its members were injured, so losing against Italy in the Final is honestly a pretty good result 2015 Moscow WCH Semifinal - Garozzo's first year on the team. USA put up a really good fight, but Cassara retakes the lead in the seventh, Garozzo 5-0 Miles in the 8th, and Baldini closed it out in the 9th. 2016 Rio Olympics Bronze - USA finally beats Italy at a major!!! 2017 Leipzig WCH Final - USA won most of the medals in the season. Italy dropped Baldini for Foconi, and this was Garozzo's first year as anchor. Italy still wins 2018 Wuxi World WCH Final - USA won every world cup of that season. However, this time it wasn't even close - Italy wins again 2019 Budapest WCH - USA wins its first ever WCH, but it didn't face Italy along the way 2021 Tokyo Olympics - USA wins Bronze, while Italy lost to Japan in the quarterfinal 2022 - Italy wins every (if not almost every - I don't remember the result for Cairo World Cup) event, but can USA stop them?
*Vomits* indeed. Can't express how glad I was to see Lefort defend his championship from him. Marini is a fencer with great distance control (is one way of putting it, every time his point goes behind his head during a close march and he goes unpunished kills me a little bit inside) but I'd be surprised if his game stays relevant for super long. It seems like it takes a lot of youth and flexibility, not to mention the fact that Marini's actions seem less varied than Chamley-Watson's at his very absolute worst... That out of the way, thanks for the video and the great description!
@@TulliverS You're welcome! I think how long Marini will stay relevant depends on more factors than his style of fencing. Marini and Miles come from very different systems, where being a good fencer is a legitimate career choice, whereas after winning individual and world championships, an Olympic medal, and a bunch of team medals, there really isn't much for Miles left to do in fencing, especially since he doesn't earn money based on his results. Then again, not all Italian fencers want to fence forever either. Coaching in Italy is a great way to go - if you can get in - and if Marini wins some Olympics/World Championships medals and wants to get into coaching or just something else, that's also possible. In terms of style, more varied doesn't always mean better. It's smarter for someone that tall to just fence a long game the entire time. I even think that Miles would be a lot more consistent if he fenced that kind of distance game instead of going for close range or tricks, but since he would earn more from sponsorships, that makes sense for him to do
@@TulliverSweird comment. Ev'ry fencing lover has his own taste ( I always found awful Imboden, f.i.), but misunderstanding true facts is a different matter. "His point going behind his head" in a close action/contact is called FLICK , it's typical of Italian fencing school, and not only it's upon the rules (so the fencer will ever go unpunished) but it's reputed the most spectacular & technically difficult move of fencing sport. You should follow the example of Dancingtuna , who's very well informed and aknowledged about fencing....
And just so it isn't said I have no sympathy for Marini, the pull into attack-into-prep at 20:40 was pretty nice. Chase Emmer losing the next touch because of the pure awfulness of Kruse's pun... not so nice
The best countries in fencing take World Cup as pure training and a way of testing physical preparation and body work looking forward to much, much more important world championships and olympics.Check back the greatest fencers ever : once on a while they were winning any competition of the many stages of the world cup, but they never took this last as main goal of their season. Occurently they won some titles in the W Cup tourmament, but that was against their intentions.
Yep, refereeing is so inconsistent. It seems so backward that a committee doesn't meet to decide on the rules. It's becoming like figure skating in that what constitutes an attack depends on the ref at the time.
The hit at 5:52 and replay at 6:11 I would have called it simul too They probably called it that way because while they both advance lunge off the line, when they make the hit at 6:15 Marini's arm was straight while Massialas' was bent. While I agree that straight arm into bent arm in the middle should be attack from straight arm, I think most refs would have still called this simul because it was so close, especially without video
Simul, or I could see a case for it being attack left. You can pretty clearly see Marini pull his hand back at 6:14 before the final extension. His elbow ends up bending and his point pointing at the ceiling while Alexander is making a straight extension without his point moving back at all. Just my opinion though. It explains to me why Alexander and Greg were both so incredulous though.
@@Dancingtuna I think it should be a simultaneous. Basing whether one fencer starts a few milliseconds earlier is absurd especially when the average human reaction speed is .25 seconds. Awarding a point simply becomes a matter of luck then. Fencing is enjoyable to play and watch when there is actual tactic. As a result, any attacks that start within .25 seconds of each other should be called a simul.
![Wuxi 2018 Fencing World Championships [FINAL] Italy v USA | Men's Foil Team Fencing](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MGg9t8Hcxz4/mqdefault.jpg)
![Wuxi 2018 Fencing World Championships [FINAL] Italy v USA | Men's Foil Team Fencing](/img/tr.png)
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I so loved the co-commentary of Rich Kruse (if I remember correctly) as expert on this tournament... Absolutely brilliant how he brings (actual) expertise and insights to the commentary!
agreed, i think he would make an excellent commentator after retirement especially
these two teams always give a great show
thanks for uploading this video!
[Description]:
The Rio to Tokyo Olympic Cycle period saw USA as the most dominant team on the circuit. While Team USA were not able to win neither Rio nor Tokyo Olympic Games nor two of the three World Championships in that period, they made up for it by winning almost every World Cup in that cycle.
Now it's Italy's turn. As normal for the season after the Olympics, every team have lost big hitters to retirement or a break. France lost Le Pechoux, while Mertine and Pauty seem to be on a break. For Team USA, Imboden is taking a break from competitions, while Meinhardt is probably easing off a little this season. The entirety of Team Russia is taking a break because their country invaded Ukraine. Japan hasn't lost anyone but Saito sucks and Matsuyama is mid again. Korea lost Lee. And Hong Kong is still operating on a two good fencers per competition basis.
Meanwhile Italy has gone through big changes. First of all, Cerioni is head coach again. Now I don't know if Cerioni would have returned regardless, but maybe Cipressa's inability to bring back a mens team foil Olympic medal or choosing his daughter to go to the Olympics when there were two higher ranked Italian fencers (not counting DiFrancesca) at the time had something to do with that...
Secondly, Italy has finally lost every member of the 2012 Olympic Team. The previous generation of - let's just hold out until Cassara saves us - has ended (though Cassara does want to go for Paris 2024). Avola has been pushed off the team too. And who replaced them - crazy frog and *vomits*... So Bianchi, I like watching Bianchi (sometimes), even though I think he's currently the weakest member of the four by far. But Marini, I really don't like watching Marini. Not saying that he's a bad fencer - in fact he's the current World No. 1 - but I just don't find being long an enjoyable style to watch. Regardless, if the Italians manage to fix Cassara or if Bianchi improves so more, it seems like Italy will be the most dominant player in this Olympic Season.
Previous Match-ups - Italy beating USA at World Champs Finals is just a classic at this point:
2012 London Olympics Semifinal - Italy blows up USA in the semis - as to be expected, USA were young and Italy were the favorites
2013 Budapest WCH Final - USA has a huge comeback in the semis against France, but the team was young and half its members were injured, so losing against Italy in the Final is honestly a pretty good result
2015 Moscow WCH Semifinal - Garozzo's first year on the team. USA put up a really good fight, but Cassara retakes the lead in the seventh, Garozzo 5-0 Miles in the 8th, and Baldini closed it out in the 9th.
2016 Rio Olympics Bronze - USA finally beats Italy at a major!!!
2017 Leipzig WCH Final - USA won most of the medals in the season. Italy dropped Baldini for Foconi, and this was Garozzo's first year as anchor. Italy still wins
2018 Wuxi World WCH Final - USA won every world cup of that season. However, this time it wasn't even close - Italy wins again
2019 Budapest WCH - USA wins its first ever WCH, but it didn't face Italy along the way
2021 Tokyo Olympics - USA wins Bronze, while Italy lost to Japan in the quarterfinal
2022 - Italy wins every (if not almost every - I don't remember the result for Cairo World Cup) event, but can USA stop them?
Love these descriptions
@@axelvekemans6750 Thanks! They're in most videos that I upload, but recently someone suggested to upload them as comments
*Vomits* indeed. Can't express how glad I was to see Lefort defend his championship from him. Marini is a fencer with great distance control (is one way of putting it, every time his point goes behind his head during a close march and he goes unpunished kills me a little bit inside) but I'd be surprised if his game stays relevant for super long. It seems like it takes a lot of youth and flexibility, not to mention the fact that Marini's actions seem less varied than Chamley-Watson's at his very absolute worst...
That out of the way, thanks for the video and the great description!
@@TulliverS You're welcome!
I think how long Marini will stay relevant depends on more factors than his style of fencing.
Marini and Miles come from very different systems, where being a good fencer is a legitimate career choice, whereas after winning individual and world championships, an Olympic medal, and a bunch of team medals, there really isn't much for Miles left to do in fencing, especially since he doesn't earn money based on his results.
Then again, not all Italian fencers want to fence forever either. Coaching in Italy is a great way to go - if you can get in - and if Marini wins some Olympics/World Championships medals and wants to get into coaching or just something else, that's also possible.
In terms of style, more varied doesn't always mean better. It's smarter for someone that tall to just fence a long game the entire time. I even think that Miles would be a lot more consistent if he fenced that kind of distance game instead of going for close range or tricks, but since he would earn more from sponsorships, that makes sense for him to do
@@TulliverSweird comment. Ev'ry fencing lover has his own taste ( I always found awful Imboden, f.i.), but misunderstanding true facts is a different matter. "His point going behind his head" in a close action/contact is called FLICK , it's typical of Italian fencing school, and not only it's upon the rules (so the fencer will ever go unpunished) but it's reputed the most spectacular & technically difficult move of fencing sport. You should follow the example of Dancingtuna , who's very well informed and aknowledged about fencing....
And just so it isn't said I have no sympathy for Marini, the pull into attack-into-prep at 20:40 was pretty nice.
Chase Emmer losing the next touch because of the pure awfulness of Kruse's pun... not so nice
Given how little imagination the FIE commentary team has, I'm sure that they will be using that pun for the rest of Emmer's career
The best countries in fencing take World Cup as pure training and a way of testing physical preparation and body work looking forward to much, much more important world championships and olympics.Check back the greatest fencers ever : once on a while they were winning any competition of the many stages of the world cup, but they never took this last as main goal of their season. Occurently they won some titles in the W Cup tourmament, but that was against their intentions.
The number of those hits are so questionable, and merely lands on mercy of the ref to decide if it counts or not.
Yep, refereeing is so inconsistent. It seems so backward that a committee doesn't meet to decide on the rules. It's becoming like figure skating in that what constitutes an attack depends on the ref at the time.
in the first bout, I think the last hit should me simul
The hit at 5:52 and replay at 6:11
I would have called it simul too
They probably called it that way because while they both advance lunge off the line, when they make the hit at 6:15 Marini's arm was straight while Massialas' was bent. While I agree that straight arm into bent arm in the middle should be attack from straight arm, I think most refs would have still called this simul because it was so close, especially without video
Simul, or I could see a case for it being attack left. You can pretty clearly see Marini pull his hand back at 6:14 before the final extension. His elbow ends up bending and his point pointing at the ceiling while Alexander is making a straight extension without his point moving back at all. Just my opinion though. It explains to me why Alexander and Greg were both so incredulous though.
@@TulliverS I don't think most refs would say pulling the hand back negates an attack. That would mean coupes aren't valid attacks.
@@Dancingtuna I think it should be a simultaneous. Basing whether one fencer starts a few milliseconds earlier is absurd especially when the average human reaction speed is .25 seconds. Awarding a point simply becomes a matter of luck then. Fencing is enjoyable to play and watch when there is actual tactic. As a result, any attacks that start within .25 seconds of each other should be called a simul.
Ice Cream, Ice Cream, Ice Cream !!!
SEEEE FORZA ITALIAAAAAA SIUMMM A CASA AMERICANIII
Does anyone know what shoes Daniele Garozzo wears?
Nike Vapor Courts. Nike doesn't make them anymore
@@Dancingtuna Thank you! 😃
it kind last touch was his.
When affirmative action backfires. Dont tell me the team hadn't dealt with his tantrums before. Had no right to be there.
siuuuu
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