Very interesting. The math says you're right but I'm going to have to be from Missouri on this one at least once. Thinking CZ here -- I'm skeeeered of that window of vulnerability opened wide with the reboot/repair. On one hand, stronger so less likely to go down in the first place but if they do go down just how far from the action do I have to run to find a safe place to reboot/repair? Also, I'm in the habit of finishing the CZ then turning right around and going back in. With bi-weaves any time needed to loiter around before jumping back in is fairly short. But your reasoning is sound so I'll have to give it a try.
A fellow CZ pilot! Heya! So first, I don't think you'll have any problems keeping prismatics up for the entire duration of the CZ. Especially if you're running med ships or larger. If you can do an entire CZ without taking 50% Prismatics, your Prismatics will last you forever. Perfect time to do this is when all the ships jump out (assuming you won of course) If you're finishing a CZ with less than 50% Prismatic shield, you can just Reboot / Repair to get back up to 50%. Alternatively, you can do it before you engage in the CZ itself when you're still like 10-7k out from the combat. You don't need to worry about doing it in combat. But let's go ahead and address the combat situation too. I get that the hull damage is pretty scary if your shields go down in combat. But the thing is if your Prismatics go down, your Bi-Weaves went down forever ago. As noted, if you decide to keep flying and fighting with your Bi-weaves recharging, you're going to spend 10 or more seconds (I'm working on a follow-up vid that takes these into consideration) taking additional damage compared to just rebooting and repairing to get your shields back. I would be more afraid of taking damage from flying around without shields for 10 or more additional seconds than I would be from damage taken for sitting still for ~13-15 seconds. The more shield boosters you run on your build (And I'm pretty sure you're using shield boosters) the more value the reboot / repair has compared to waiting longer and longer for broken regen rate to get to 50%
@@im-the-zam Thanks very much for that discussion. I seldom lose the bi-weaves but as you note when I do it's a lot of run away! run away! while I get to the edge of the action so they can recharge and usually taking a good dent in the hull while doing it as they all pile on. Thing is, though, they are back up to full strength when I turn around and dive in for round two. But, frankly, I've never even considered reboot/repair as a shortcut to regen... definite oversight on my part. What engineering do you use on your prismatics?
I typically run CZs in my FDL and it's optimized for thermal resistances. This is because most enemies in the game seem to run thermal weaponry. The prismos have Thermal Resist / Hi-Cap and then the 0A Shield Boosters are either Heavy Duty / Super Cap or Thermal Resist / Super Cap. I find that you have the most Thermal Resist at 50/50 with those for larger ships. The other option for the Prismos is Reinforced / High Cap if you're finding enemies launching too many cannon shells at you (I don't). You'll lose 2000 thermal resist but gain 4000 kinetic resist. Something you can consider.
@@im-the-zam Excellent. Thanks for that. Running the bi-weaves I was ('natch) going with thermal and fast charge but given your discussion fast charge wouldn't be the choice with a switch back to normal shields or to prismatics.
Glad I could help you out. Yeah I've been running the numbers on engineered shields all day and the amount of damage you have to regen to break even once we consider engineering and shield boosters is insane. The passive regen is really low, so unless you're sitting for minutes at a time, you probably want a different shield.
Needs better presentation mate, but idea is clear. Bi-weaves sure dont really benefit a big ship in a PVP fight, only outside combat, but take more or less any combat worthy medium or smaller ship and shields will be regening a lot due to better evasion...still it's a thing that a better pilot will manage. for PVE bi-weaves a re a wonderful addition due to this regen where the little amount of damage you soak up doesnt compound and require you to stop and reboot repair.
not to mention, constantly having to reboot leaves you around 50% on prismatics, which for most ships is a lot less meat than a fully charged beefweave
The thing is, if you are trying to be efficient in PvE, say doing pirate massacre and assassination missions, your shields will never regen enough to offset combat damage. And if you're sitting waiting for your shields to regen after just blowing up 4 pirate anacondas, you're wasting tons of time that could be spent blowing up more pirates.
@@Griuqs IDK mate... being efficient in PVE also means KILLING the target quickly..sometimes quickly enough so that you dont get ANY damage... and that's where it counts
@@TheYamiks If you're not taking damage then why do you care about regen? And I'd LOVE to see you kill even a pirate anaconda or corvette without taking damage.
It's really up to you. I'd have to see the build before making a full assessment. If you send me a edsy.org link I'll take a look. But I can make some general comments. Generally smaller ships can get away with using bi-weaves since the superiority of other shields really only manifests once engineering and Shield Boosters get involved. Since I know how much of a pain engineering is and I don't know your situation, I'd say just chill on that Bi-Weaves and just get a proper shield when you class up to a medium and engineer that.
@@im-the-zam I have a cobra 3 and a vulture non of them engineered. New to the game and have been doing alot of bounty hunting. I have bi weaves on both. Was wondering what I shld be running either a bi weave or A grade shields.
@@Johnjohnson-zg4ek Again, the differences between Bi-Weaves and other shields really only become what I'd consider a real issue as the shields get larger and engineered. The point of this video is that the regen in Bi-Weaves shouldn't be the selling point. If you're just starting out with small ships, the Bi-Weaves are fine. And if you're running a vulture without engineering I'd say that's probably your best shot for a shielded build. Vultures without engineering tend to be strapped for power and the Bi-Weaves can be a nice means around that due to their lower power draw When you hit medium ships like the FDL that's when I'd say definitely swap over to the Class A Shields or get prismatics if you can. Especially if you have engineering by then. A lot of the arguable benefits of Bi-Weaves go away when engineering is considered.
- if you take damage or are moving during reboot repair the shields won't regen. - some ships have very fast regen rates that can be utilized in a hull tank to deliver high effective shield values in a duel. - I frequently end a undermining drop with more shields than I started with on my biweave. - needing to reboot and repair is inefficient and slow for undermining - aside from the hull tank biweave build like on alliance ships, I agree for pvp you don't want biweaves
1. With regards to RnR, obviously. But the issue with that argument is if your shields on a Prismatic went down forcing an RnR, your shields on a Bi-Weave went down forcing an RnR a long time ago. Shield break in general is the point at which the fight has been decided. 2. Regen rates are tied to shield, not to ship. Talking about hull tanks in a shield discussion is off-topic imo. 3. Your bi-weave anecdote is whatever but doesn't negate the point that the regen value is low and not useful for in-combat states. 4. You're also talking about an activity which is ripe for PvP which means if you want to be prepared during undermining you should be using a Prismatic anyway I mentioned this in the video, you can like Bi-Weaves and that's fine. The regen value is just too low to justify using them on the basis of "I regen combat to combat" unless you're spending extensive periods of time between combat. Though I'd also wonder how you're undermining. For solo UMOP, the most efficient method is to aggro several wings at once. You can easily wind up fighting 5-6 wings at once and for that you do not want Bi-Weaves and if you did happen to be using Bi-Weaves at the time they would've broken.
@@im-the-zam sorry yes I meant to say some ships have fast rebuild rates and thus can rebuild their biweaves multiple times during a fight (1v1 - in a wing fight you take damage too fast when focused) and thus effectively get equal or higher shield value as a prismatic but without the power or weight drawbacks. I undermine solo in an anaconda and I'm super efficient in my biweave so I'd say I'm doing just fine
Rebuild time is based on broken regen rate and max shield. If you can regen your shield multiple times in a fight, it's a hallmark that your max shield value is super low. I've actually done the math on regen times and you have to be severely underclassing your shields to regen like that. Not to mention you get to enjoy taking all of that free module damage for no reason. You're probably not as efficient as you could be if you find yourself fighting 1v1 often. Again, the most efficient way to UMOP is to take on several wings at once.
What do you mean you can beat FDLs 1v1.Mate, you can beat 1v1 FDLs all day and night when it's PvE. If you're talking about PvP then that FDL wasn't using a very good build because even some of the better Bi-Weave'd Anacondas lose shields within 20 volleys of a meta-de-lance with TC. I once calculated the DPS of the meta-de-lance and don't quote me on the numbers atm but iirc it was something like 360 DPS with of course about 200 of that being absolute. The Anaconda will crumple within minutes even with SCBs. Then we have the fragmamba which is a low IQ build that is really effective at making Bi-Weave shield tanks sad if you can get a stick on. Of course, your anecdotes really don't matter because you've already ceded the point that in-combat regen isn't a factor and I can mathematically prove that in-combat rebuild times are stupid slow in comparison to reboot and repair. I've also provided a tool in the spreadsheet which actually calculates the rebuild time for a given shield and it's really not a thing in a post-engineering E:D society. We don't have to agree, you haven't presented a case against the thesis of the video.
Not even gonna finish watching this but I can already tell you it depends on what you are doing, for bounty hunting its a mixed bag, for conflict zones it sucks balls, for 1v1 pvp, if your opponent is using the plasma accelerators, it's a godsend. At that p9int you are jousting, and if you know how to trick the aim guide for them, then yes biweave is nearly top tier, just avoid getting hit for 2 or 3 passes and you already regen more damage than you took. I went up against a vulture that had bi weave like me and we knew what we were doing, we called it a draw bc we would've been there all day until we ran out of ammo
Thanks for saying you didn't watch the video because I actually describe the cases in which biweaves are useful. Your anecdote just tells me you and your pvp partner suck at combat.
@@im-the-zam first off, pretty sure my pvp track record would beg to differ, considering I went after the so called best pilots at the time, I made a build to counter the Fer de Lance plasma meta, one that everyone told me wouldn't work, and I NEVER lost a duel. Infact crimsongamer99 came across the same build 3 or 4 years later and it started picking up traction. You are a little late with this video explaining why bi weave shields "suck." Yes I know this was posted 3 years ago, should've posted it 8 years ago
You're saying that in your pvp vulture you and your friend are either unable to hit each other or are spending minutes out of combat. If either are true, you and your friend are bad. Without engineering on the PAs, you're still doing enough damage to require 30ish seconds out of combat for 1 hit by 1 PA (on just the absolute damage alone). You are overboosting in your jousts if you are spending that much time out of combat. You have a skill issue. And if you are not hitting your target, you are also skill issue.
@im-the-zam I didn't tell you what build I was using, nor what ship, or how exactly I fly to avoid getting hit, if you can't figure that kind of stuff out on your own, you need help. It sounds like you assume things way too much.
You told me you and your friend were jousting in your pvp vultures and you said you were tricking the lead indicator to make your friend miss with his PAs. Ignoring the fact that the "tricking the lead indicator" thing is pretty easy to hit through (your friend is definitely bad) I know you are using a bi-weave shield. And since I know how much absolute damage PAs do it's a fairly simply calculation. Even if you're running fast-charge, the regen rate for 5C bi-weaves is only 2.5. Unengineered PAs do a little more than 50 absolute damage. Factoring in the out of combat delay, it'll take you 22 seconds to regen after getting hit by one. 42 seconds to regen after getting hit by two. If you and your friend are spending minutes out of combat and / or are unable to hit each other to the point where you have to call a draw, you and your friend are just bad.
you need a degree in maths or something to follow this guys explainations, you completely lost me. Too much complicated theory, cant figure out how it applies to actual gameplay
Very interesting. The math says you're right but I'm going to have to be from Missouri on this one at least once. Thinking CZ here -- I'm skeeeered of that window of vulnerability opened wide with the reboot/repair. On one hand, stronger so less likely to go down in the first place but if they do go down just how far from the action do I have to run to find a safe place to reboot/repair? Also, I'm in the habit of finishing the CZ then turning right around and going back in. With bi-weaves any time needed to loiter around before jumping back in is fairly short. But your reasoning is sound so I'll have to give it a try.
A fellow CZ pilot! Heya! So first, I don't think you'll have any problems keeping prismatics up for the entire duration of the CZ. Especially if you're running med ships or larger. If you can do an entire CZ without taking 50% Prismatics, your Prismatics will last you forever. Perfect time to do this is when all the ships jump out (assuming you won of course) If you're finishing a CZ with less than 50% Prismatic shield, you can just Reboot / Repair to get back up to 50%. Alternatively, you can do it before you engage in the CZ itself when you're still like 10-7k out from the combat. You don't need to worry about doing it in combat.
But let's go ahead and address the combat situation too. I get that the hull damage is pretty scary if your shields go down in combat. But the thing is if your Prismatics go down, your Bi-Weaves went down forever ago. As noted, if you decide to keep flying and fighting with your Bi-weaves recharging, you're going to spend 10 or more seconds (I'm working on a follow-up vid that takes these into consideration) taking additional damage compared to just rebooting and repairing to get your shields back. I would be more afraid of taking damage from flying around without shields for 10 or more additional seconds than I would be from damage taken for sitting still for ~13-15 seconds. The more shield boosters you run on your build (And I'm pretty sure you're using shield boosters) the more value the reboot / repair has compared to waiting longer and longer for broken regen rate to get to 50%
@@im-the-zam Thanks very much for that discussion. I seldom lose the bi-weaves but as you note when I do it's a lot of run away! run away! while I get to the edge of the action so they can recharge and usually taking a good dent in the hull while doing it as they all pile on. Thing is, though, they are back up to full strength when I turn around and dive in for round two. But, frankly, I've never even considered reboot/repair as a shortcut to regen... definite oversight on my part.
What engineering do you use on your prismatics?
I typically run CZs in my FDL and it's optimized for thermal resistances. This is because most enemies in the game seem to run thermal weaponry. The prismos have Thermal Resist / Hi-Cap and then the 0A Shield Boosters are either Heavy Duty / Super Cap or Thermal Resist / Super Cap. I find that you have the most Thermal Resist at 50/50 with those for larger ships.
The other option for the Prismos is Reinforced / High Cap if you're finding enemies launching too many cannon shells at you (I don't). You'll lose 2000 thermal resist but gain 4000 kinetic resist. Something you can consider.
@@im-the-zam Excellent. Thanks for that. Running the bi-weaves I was ('natch) going with thermal and fast charge but given your discussion fast charge wouldn't be the choice with a switch back to normal shields or to prismatics.
Glad I could help you out. Yeah I've been running the numbers on engineered shields all day and the amount of damage you have to regen to break even once we consider engineering and shield boosters is insane. The passive regen is really low, so unless you're sitting for minutes at a time, you probably want a different shield.
Needs better presentation mate, but idea is clear. Bi-weaves sure dont really benefit a big ship in a PVP fight, only outside combat, but take more or less any combat worthy medium or smaller ship and shields will be regening a lot due to better evasion...still it's a thing that a better pilot will manage.
for PVE bi-weaves a re a wonderful addition due to this regen where the little amount of damage you soak up doesnt compound and require you to stop and reboot repair.
not to mention, constantly having to reboot leaves you around 50% on prismatics, which for most ships is a lot less meat than a fully charged beefweave
The thing is, if you are trying to be efficient in PvE, say doing pirate massacre and assassination missions, your shields will never regen enough to offset combat damage. And if you're sitting waiting for your shields to regen after just blowing up 4 pirate anacondas, you're wasting tons of time that could be spent blowing up more pirates.
@@Griuqs IDK mate... being efficient in PVE also means KILLING the target quickly..sometimes quickly enough so that you dont get ANY damage... and that's where it counts
@@TheYamiks If you're not taking damage then why do you care about regen? And I'd LOVE to see you kill even a pirate anaconda or corvette without taking damage.
I have an engineered cobra with bi weaves. Should I be using an A grade shield generator instead?
It's really up to you. I'd have to see the build before making a full assessment. If you send me a edsy.org link I'll take a look. But I can make some general comments.
Generally smaller ships can get away with using bi-weaves since the superiority of other shields really only manifests once engineering and Shield Boosters get involved. Since I know how much of a pain engineering is and I don't know your situation, I'd say just chill on that Bi-Weaves and just get a proper shield when you class up to a medium and engineer that.
@@im-the-zam I have a cobra 3 and a vulture non of them engineered. New to the game and have been doing alot of bounty hunting. I have bi weaves on both. Was wondering what I shld be running either a bi weave or A grade shields.
@@Johnjohnson-zg4ek Again, the differences between Bi-Weaves and other shields really only become what I'd consider a real issue as the shields get larger and engineered. The point of this video is that the regen in Bi-Weaves shouldn't be the selling point.
If you're just starting out with small ships, the Bi-Weaves are fine. And if you're running a vulture without engineering I'd say that's probably your best shot for a shielded build. Vultures without engineering tend to be strapped for power and the Bi-Weaves can be a nice means around that due to their lower power draw
When you hit medium ships like the FDL that's when I'd say definitely swap over to the Class A Shields or get prismatics if you can. Especially if you have engineering by then. A lot of the arguable benefits of Bi-Weaves go away when engineering is considered.
But Elzam, this goes against years of community knowledge and the lived experiences of commanders!
- if you take damage or are moving during reboot repair the shields won't regen.
- some ships have very fast regen rates that can be utilized in a hull tank to deliver high effective shield values in a duel.
- I frequently end a undermining drop with more shields than I started with on my biweave.
- needing to reboot and repair is inefficient and slow for undermining
- aside from the hull tank biweave build like on alliance ships, I agree for pvp you don't want biweaves
1. With regards to RnR, obviously. But the issue with that argument is if your shields on a Prismatic went down forcing an RnR, your shields on a Bi-Weave went down forcing an RnR a long time ago. Shield break in general is the point at which the fight has been decided.
2. Regen rates are tied to shield, not to ship. Talking about hull tanks in a shield discussion is off-topic imo.
3. Your bi-weave anecdote is whatever but doesn't negate the point that the regen value is low and not useful for in-combat states.
4. You're also talking about an activity which is ripe for PvP which means if you want to be prepared during undermining you should be using a Prismatic anyway
I mentioned this in the video, you can like Bi-Weaves and that's fine. The regen value is just too low to justify using them on the basis of "I regen combat to combat" unless you're spending extensive periods of time between combat. Though I'd also wonder how you're undermining. For solo UMOP, the most efficient method is to aggro several wings at once. You can easily wind up fighting 5-6 wings at once and for that you do not want Bi-Weaves and if you did happen to be using Bi-Weaves at the time they would've broken.
@@im-the-zam sorry yes I meant to say some ships have fast rebuild rates and thus can rebuild their biweaves multiple times during a fight (1v1 - in a wing fight you take damage too fast when focused) and thus effectively get equal or higher shield value as a prismatic but without the power or weight drawbacks.
I undermine solo in an anaconda and I'm super efficient in my biweave so I'd say I'm doing just fine
Rebuild time is based on broken regen rate and max shield. If you can regen your shield multiple times in a fight, it's a hallmark that your max shield value is super low. I've actually done the math on regen times and you have to be severely underclassing your shields to regen like that. Not to mention you get to enjoy taking all of that free module damage for no reason.
You're probably not as efficient as you could be if you find yourself fighting 1v1 often. Again, the most efficient way to UMOP is to take on several wings at once.
@@im-the-zam I've beaten fdls and watched other similar builds win 1v1 vs an fdl. But anyway we'll never agree.
What do you mean you can beat FDLs 1v1.Mate, you can beat 1v1 FDLs all day and night when it's PvE. If you're talking about PvP then that FDL wasn't using a very good build because even some of the better Bi-Weave'd Anacondas lose shields within 20 volleys of a meta-de-lance with TC. I once calculated the DPS of the meta-de-lance and don't quote me on the numbers atm but iirc it was something like 360 DPS with of course about 200 of that being absolute. The Anaconda will crumple within minutes even with SCBs. Then we have the fragmamba which is a low IQ build that is really effective at making Bi-Weave shield tanks sad if you can get a stick on.
Of course, your anecdotes really don't matter because you've already ceded the point that in-combat regen isn't a factor and I can mathematically prove that in-combat rebuild times are stupid slow in comparison to reboot and repair. I've also provided a tool in the spreadsheet which actually calculates the rebuild time for a given shield and it's really not a thing in a post-engineering E:D society.
We don't have to agree, you haven't presented a case against the thesis of the video.
Not even gonna finish watching this but I can already tell you it depends on what you are doing, for bounty hunting its a mixed bag, for conflict zones it sucks balls, for 1v1 pvp, if your opponent is using the plasma accelerators, it's a godsend. At that p9int you are jousting, and if you know how to trick the aim guide for them, then yes biweave is nearly top tier, just avoid getting hit for 2 or 3 passes and you already regen more damage than you took. I went up against a vulture that had bi weave like me and we knew what we were doing, we called it a draw bc we would've been there all day until we ran out of ammo
Thanks for saying you didn't watch the video because I actually describe the cases in which biweaves are useful. Your anecdote just tells me you and your pvp partner suck at combat.
@@im-the-zam first off, pretty sure my pvp track record would beg to differ, considering I went after the so called best pilots at the time, I made a build to counter the Fer de Lance plasma meta, one that everyone told me wouldn't work, and I NEVER lost a duel. Infact crimsongamer99 came across the same build 3 or 4 years later and it started picking up traction. You are a little late with this video explaining why bi weave shields "suck." Yes I know this was posted 3 years ago, should've posted it 8 years ago
You're saying that in your pvp vulture you and your friend are either unable to hit each other or are spending minutes out of combat. If either are true, you and your friend are bad. Without engineering on the PAs, you're still doing enough damage to require 30ish seconds out of combat for 1 hit by 1 PA (on just the absolute damage alone). You are overboosting in your jousts if you are spending that much time out of combat. You have a skill issue. And if you are not hitting your target, you are also skill issue.
@im-the-zam I didn't tell you what build I was using, nor what ship, or how exactly I fly to avoid getting hit, if you can't figure that kind of stuff out on your own, you need help. It sounds like you assume things way too much.
You told me you and your friend were jousting in your pvp vultures and you said you were tricking the lead indicator to make your friend miss with his PAs. Ignoring the fact that the "tricking the lead indicator" thing is pretty easy to hit through (your friend is definitely bad) I know you are using a bi-weave shield. And since I know how much absolute damage PAs do it's a fairly simply calculation. Even if you're running fast-charge, the regen rate for 5C bi-weaves is only 2.5. Unengineered PAs do a little more than 50 absolute damage. Factoring in the out of combat delay, it'll take you 22 seconds to regen after getting hit by one. 42 seconds to regen after getting hit by two. If you and your friend are spending minutes out of combat and / or are unable to hit each other to the point where you have to call a draw, you and your friend are just bad.
you need a degree in maths or something to follow this guys explainations, you completely lost me. Too much complicated theory, cant figure out how it applies to actual gameplay
In short: There are very few reasons to run a biweave shield on your combat ship. Especially if you have utility slots for shield boosters.