The Only 2 Belay Set Ups You'll Ever Need, Maybe! Ft. The Blue Ice Cuesta Adj Harness.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
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Method 1 is called a SWAMP (Shelf Without A MasterPoint) and is a brilliant method, you can sometimes join 2 bits with an alpine draw to save rope instead of going out and back twice. I also love the inline method where each piece is isolated in it's own loop with an overhand, one particular climb in Bristol has one vertical crack at belay 1, I built a belay inline with a 120 but the pair before us used a 400 (I think) out and back x3 times to a masterpoint. Incredibly gear efficient especially if you are leading every pitch and want to keep as much as possible on the harness. Doesn't give any lateral stability but that's due to the gear placements rather than the method.
Thanks for the new content. Somehow in 32 years of climbing I've never learned the first technique you showed.
Ah that's cool it's a new one for you!
👍
Nice one Jez. I suppose the key is knowing why we use a particular method in a given situation and not blindly set things up. Someone far wiser than I said: is it safe? Does it work? And can I improve it? As a mantra it ticks most boxes. We can’t get away from “it depends” though 😂😂.
Keep enjoying Spain
Cheers!
Thank you, as a UK climber I’ve used the second method (3 anchors if I can) for 30 years. It’s just been in the last 5 years that I’ve used sling belays more.
Rarely do you see anything other than sling/cord belays in online tutorials. So thank you 😊
Pleasure!
“I’m at a bouldering venue so I hope nobody turns up as I’ll look a bit odd tied into a rope bunging some trad kit in some cracks”😂 brilliant
I was genuinely worried 😂
I've only used sling anchor setups, but I've had situations where I found gear pretty far apart and the rope anchor setup would have been really helpful. Another tool in the toolbox, thanks for that!
Pleasure!
Never saw the second method. I'll need to work on it but it looks great and super easy for when you don't have a sling for whatever reason.
Another helpful video never seen the first one only been climbing a couple of years love your Chanel and absorbing knowledge you make it easy to understand thank you bud 👌
I really like the rope anchor for spread out gear, but I like a modified version. Instead of bringing the loops to clove hitches on an HMS in your rope loop, make the loops in the air without the clove hitches. then, gathering all of the strands, equalize as well as you can, then tie a BHK. You get a massive master point that allows you to belay directly off the anchor rather than your harness which is nice if the rope goes over a ledge so you don't have to catch your partner directly.
In principle, this anchor can use less rope than the alternative because you can keep the masterpoint farther away from the edge and extend yourself out from it - minimizing the back and forth to each piece. Its a neat one. The trick is to make sure you leave enough tail for the strand that goes to your harness and to capture it inside the knot.
Only thing I really dont like about these anchors is if you feel like you need to block lead a section, the changeover becomes a huge faff.
Yeah that's a good method. I've done a video in the past on those kind of methods. We just need to remember with trad climbing anchors, it's not always ideal to belay direct off the anchors. Quite rare that it isn't I guess, but certainly one to be mindful of.
Good idea teaching two radical different methods and suggesting to combine them as needed.
Cheers!
7:04 Oooh, I really like tying a simple o/h knot for the last anchor point on the rope. I usually just use another carabiner for that but this would be a great way to keep a locking 'biner free for helping the 2nd, rescues, etc.
Glad you liked it!
Hi Jez, Loving the video as usual. In the UK, especially places like the tops of quarries or grassy sea cliffs, the anchors are often distant and widely spaced so even the rope method would have ropes coming in to the HMS krab from either side (way over 90 degrees). Would you use two krabs into your rope loop in this case?
Possibly, but I'd be trying really hard to avoid over 90.
Thanks for your videos! I just would like to comment that, for the second option, I see some limitations to take into account: 1. only use it if you are switching leadership; 2. rope consuming, so do not use it if you are climbing long pitches; 3. direct belay is not always well known by everybody, so practice it before!
Pleasure!
For sure the rope method has some "problems", but it solves some too :)
Thanks
My thought on your sling setup is weather your preferred knot is actually redundant. If it's the gear ripping that's the main concern, then it totally is. But if it's the sling tearing, then I suspect it'd break in the knot and un-ravel. With the on-a-bite, you're increasing the angle and the force on the placements. But if it breaks in the knot, you've then got a knots-worth of extra "tail" to un-ravel. And a bigger knot has a larger radius and is often stronger. It's probably a judgement call as to which is more likely to happen, though. Gear give, break in knot, sling cut elsewhere? Both options are probably good enough if your placement is good and not too far apart, and your sling is in fair condition.
It would require way more force than is realistic in climbing for a sling to break in the knot
If there is a risk your slings breaking in the knot, you need to use newer slings, more slings. avoid knots or a different belay system to avoid the forces becoming so high.
The reason for redundancy (in my mind) is that a sling might be cut by the rock, and mostly a piece of pro blowing out, not because I think the sling would break purely from the force on it.
JB! do you consider method 1 self equalising? from what I can see it looks like it works stright up and down for the belay, ive never actually seen that. love your vids!
Brill video Jez, definitely two techniques I'd use and are useful to learn.
A small sidenote on another advantage of clipping into the rope loop rather than belay loop (have watched your 2020 video on it as well) is that often the belay loop is pulled to the opposite side of the harness hard points to the anchor 8, which causes the figure 8 and belay loop to dig into the bar tack stitching which obviously isn't ideal. Will DM you a photo on insta of what I mean.
Also I noticed in this video you're using the Yosemite 8 finish to get the free end of the 8 out of the way -- it's what I use for sport as well and definitely helps with undoing after whips! However, I recently learnt it can cause the knot to collapse at under 2.5kN when ring/cross-loaded so it's probably best to avoid tucking when using it's ring as an anchor point!
Tests/failure here: th-cam.com/video/jSms2k2eV3Y/w-d-xo.html
Glad you liked it.
Re. the Yosemite finish and that video, none of those variations are the same as what I've used and that's important. I've done a video on how I tie it, somewhere on the channel. I've had someone kindly test my version and whilst I can't remember the figures, it was more than strong enough when ring loaded.👊
@@JBMountainSkills Incredible that an extra wrap can increase the strength by a factor of 10!! Apologies for not spotting it initially, glad to see some numbers on it!
For reference to everyone else, JB's video on the knot is here: th-cam.com/video/-ciyu7D-DwU/w-d-xo.html and the pull test is here: fb.watch/iy1NfaV7ie/
Brilliant as ever Jez 👏
Cheers!
Great videos. Thank you 🙏
In the second method, why would you not just do the clove hitch on the carabiner of the right piece instead of bringing it back down to the HMS?
You 100% can. As I say in the video though, just trying to show one method of each.
Follow up videos coming soon 😊
If the anchor points are out of reach then having the clove hitch on the hms means you can adjust your stance slightly too
Thank you
Hope this doesn’t come across as a silly question as I’m just getting into this climbing malarkey. So approx 7mins in to the vid, you are setting the belay with rope and clove hitches. Is this to simulate a multi pitch route where you would then be belaying your partner from above to get up to your level? Thanks to anyone who gives their input 👍
I like the idea of self-equalising methods.
Some of them are good for sure. Just worth being mindful of any extension possibilities if any gear fails, and the potential consequences.
Are you ever worried about using too much rope for the clove hitch setup on multis?
Interesting. As someone from the US, I have never used or seen either of those. That second one seems like it would be a mess if I ever had to escape the anchor?
Thanks for all the vids
It is definitely trickier to escape, but sometimes it's the best method.
Keeping things realistic, how often do we really need to escape the system?
It doesn't take as long as you think it would if you know you're prusiks..
How tight will the knot become on the first method, would you put a carabiner through the knot to help with undoing it once done?
This was my first thought 🤔.
Definitely a simple way of setting up.
It's an overhand, so for sure can be a bit tight if really loaded, but honestly, I use this a ton and it's never an issue in practice.
In certain applications I do put a clip through it, for example a multi user top rope setup.
@@JBMountainSkills Thank you for the reply.
If you use the second option does that mean you are locked in to swinging leads on the next pitch? Seems like you would be without a lot of messing about.
For sure it's much more suited to swinging leads. There's some faff otherwise.
In Italy we use to the first one a lot. I didn’t know the second one, nice but I don’t understand how to switch the lead on continue the route with the first leader
I think switching is ok, the problem would appear if you are not switching...
Yeah, it's not ideal if you need to block lead.
Is the blue ice cuesta adj harness comfortable for long indoor climbing sessions e.g. on an autobelay for building endurance?
It is for me :)
Is that first option redundant?
How do you escape the belay in case of troubles/need with the 2nd set up?
A bit too involved for a text reply, but I've done some escaping the system videos, they're on this channel. It's not super quick, but neither is it too tricky. Obviously not something that needs to be done very often at all though.
You would need to replace with a sling anchor
@@louisausten6348 Depends on what you're trying to achieve. You won't always want / need to replace with a sling anchor, but sometimes that'll be the right choice for sure.
@@JBMountainSkills like always.. it depends 😂. Love the video anyway I've never seen the first method, love the simplicity of it.
Ooh! I'm first! Awesome.
Noice!
I'm sorry, but I would not recommend any of these methods. The first one might be okay, however I'd never ever use dyneema with a knot in places where the forces can be really high. In addition, the SWAMP method you show has no real advantage over the girth hitch or overhand method - just load it with an FF2 fall and try to untie it.
The second one is an absolute no-go and it is only okay when you belay the second on the penultimate pitch eg. on the top of a cliff. Since the master point is you (your harness), you will be in trouble when you have to arrest a FF2 fall.
1. Knots in dyneema is not inherently bad, this is probably the worst and most widely misunderstood climbing fact.
Do you really think I’ve never loaded this setup??? It does have distinct advantages over a girth hitch set up.
2. Again, you’re completely off the mark I’m afraid. I mention in the video non UK people often have a meltdown about it, because they’re not familiar with it and how to use it.
If the master point is your harness (I.e. not you) then any force will go onto that and directly onto the anchors, only a problem if you’ve not got your belay balanced for that force. Worst case scenario is you get lifted to the first piece. Petzl have rested this and while it’s not pretty, it isn’t dangerous and actually reduces forces on the gear (particularly useful in trad situations). Also, knots I’m dyneema aren’t an issue unless you’re not very good at undoing them (unless you routinely put 3kn or greater on your belays). Finally, if you’ve just had a FF2 fall, the last thing you’ll be worried about is a welded sling
@@JBMountainSkills if 2 results in meltdowns, how I was taught would break the internet irreversibly 🤣 - similar to your 2, but minus the clove-hitches & hms crab... 🙄
Ah I love that method if I've run out of kit, a useful one to know!
JB can you clarify what the benefit of system 1 is over a girth- or clovehitch? Those are certainly faster and easier to tie and equalize, and I don’t think they use more sling?
I'm sorry but I think this video was far too vague and casual, glossing over loads of really important stuff. I know you have many other good vids going into more detail but the title kind of implies that this vid contains all you need to know. Why demo with insecure anchors? Why gloss over the importance of secure anchors when that is so critical? Why not demo adding additional pieces properly? You vaguely mentioned the 'bullet points' but not with any clarity which is fine if your target audience already knows all this stuff but that seems to be a dangerous assumption to me. It obviously wouldn't be wise or in anyway recommended, but a complete beginner could watch this one vid and be filled with the (false) confidence that they know enough to go out and keep themselves and their partners safe. I think with important stuff like this there is a minimum level of detail and clarity required to make it safe and in crossing that line it becomes dangerous dumbing down. I know there is pressure for tubers to regularly released content but I think you need to be careful diluting that content as not every user will watch every vid. Sorry for busting your balls!
I appreciate the polite feedback, and that it’s intended to be constructive, genuinely.
I do disagree though, or I wouldn’t have produced it.
One video cannot cover every bit of info and judgement needed, nor do I feel it needs to.