Attaching a player's "worth" to a rank is definitely not great on a psychological level. Under SBMM, the motivation to get better is not linked to the inherent satisfaction that comes from personal improvement, it's now linked to a colorful badge that can be awarded and taken away by a system that is mostly just prioritizing queue times. I tend to agree with the opinion that SBMM is ruining a lot of games because it's making a lot of people disregard the actual gameplay elements of a video game. Instead, they're just focused on trying to grind their rank. THAT is the game now: "make rating number go up." Love-hate relationships with video games is at an all-time high as a result.
Rating numbers for general SBMM in COD are invisible, no? Which is where most people who are complaining seem to be having a problem. In games like league, csgo, val, visible ranks are awarded because those games have specific game modes that are intended to be competitive.
Yeah and It also applies outside of video games for me at least Like I tried to learn drawing and eventually the will to learn and the grind to the top stop being in sync for me and nowadays, it's hard for me to learn new things because I don't feel like grinding can give me the satisfaction I need at the moment.
Variety is almost always a good thing. Back in the day we used server browsers to find games and picked the one with the lowest ping. This resulted in a brilliant, unpredictable experience. Being manipulated into nothing but ultra competitive matches is unpleasant.
The worst part is when one guy in your friend group is significantly better than everyone else. The better friend can have a decent game, but everyone else gets rolled and has a bad time.
@@jakeman52 That still happens. Often times your friend might be good enough to stomp and get kills but the enemies are good enough to stomp you so both teams are still having a bad experience
I remember getting into TF2 as a kid and getting absolutely destroyed for weeks until I crept my way into being the pubstomper and it felt great, the “I wanna destroy the top fragger” feeling was a huge motivation tbh
i also enjoy that TF2 has a lot of different pools to s2im in per warowls metaphor. you got casual, you got all the different flavors of community servers, you got mvm, even community mvm and i think the game also profits from the higher per server playercount
Well in 2015-2016 Meet your Match killed TF2 for a while. And personally it was in fault by Tryhards and Competitive players forcing Valve to make a competitive mode.
As someone who's been playing CoD since I was a little kid, it hurts to play multiplayer now. I'll have a match where I destroy, and I feel like a good player, and then I get destroyed for 10 games in a row before getting a '"good" game again. It's an absolutely awful way to play. I can't even enjoy those '"good" matches, because I know exactly what's coming next. I hope there's a solution for this in the future but I won't hold my breath on it.
Same, my buddy and I stopped MW2 a few days after it came out because of this sensation. I had a match with him where I dropped a 30 kill match but he was still getting creamed. I realised that he would never have fun in games like this playing with me as I am probably in that reall small part of the skill curve right before you get into the really good players (like I'm above average, not great.) It really ruins our time together because I want to just grab a game and go blow up some tanks in War Thunder with him or go run a lobby in COD like the old days but these games are now engineered maliciously to make sure you play as long as possible.
@@Rexhunterj If your buddy sucks at the game he won’t do well in random matches either tho. Although I do think that the algorithm should match in between the skill level of the party
I don't know much about this, are you saying the Competitive mode isn't that great? If so, a great way to fix the problem would be to make a good competitive mode so the sweaty tryhards go play that instead of farming noobs.
@@TheWarOwl the competitive/ranked in cod games are notoriously under supported and are basically after thoughts. That’s a reason I stopped playing years ago
@@TheWarOwl Let's just say this. The last time CoD had a genuinely good competitive/ranked mode was Black Ops 2. It's been awful or nonexistent since then.
you've been on a roll lately. you make great arguments and i really like the csgo experiments too. if you told me in 2013 i would one day not miss a video from the "stop scope flick fire guy" i wouldn't believe you. i don't even play csgo anymore but you might be my favorite gaming youtuber overall at this point
can anyone explain to he why "stop scope flick fire" is bad advice? if even is bad advise. i know it's something warowl said in of of his guide video, but never understood what's with the meme
@@pudimo it's mostly cause the stop, scope, and flick all happen simultaneously, it's only the fire that comes right after. It might be okay advice to a beginner but to anyone trying to get higher than silver it can be a bit misleading
Documents have been leaked that SBMM is not used to deliver balanced matches but, ironically, unbalanced ones. They (EA and probably others) studied psychology and found that cycles of losses followed by a win creates an addictive loop that actually keeps players on longer. We can all feel when a match feels rigged against us, and now it's been documented that they are.
It was very obvious in Halo Infinite. One game you're on top of the scoreboard and your team is insane. The next game it feels like you just got matched against an actual pro team while everyone on your team are avid glue enjoyers.
Additionallly, when they prime you for a loss, they specifically match you up with an opponent that has some paid gear that might encourage you to impulse buy. That's why everyone's gear is clearly highlighted in games with micro transactions.
I think another issue with sbmm is more of team balancing than similarly skilled players being grouped. It’s generally not fun as both a high ranked player and lower ranked player to end up trying to average out the teams by pairing someone in the top 1% with five other newbies vs a team of generally skilled players, especially in teamwork-based games. It usually just devolves into “can my sweaty player carry us” rather than “can we work together to win”, which rarely happens, and usually results in a one-sided match.
You remind me of a round of smite (a MOBA) where there was this one guy that was much better than us but often didn't bother waiting for the team. I can't remember if we ended up winning but I definitely remember thinking he was great mechanically and the we could have won much sooner if he was more patient and tried to coordinate with the rest of the team better.
Half of the comments here complain that the problem is SBMM is too tight and people won't ever improve because they never see anyone better than them, and the other half complains that it's too loose and the problem is when you're much better than the other people playing. I gotta conclude that you're all just being silly and that it's actually fine.
@@hirotrum6810 when I used to play I'd generally wouldn't get terrible mismatches, I'd mostly play casual so that probably has something to do with it (along with me being a pretty average player)
Its also that game lobbies and servers are so atomized, used to be you would join a server and play with a community or join a lobby and play for hours, make friends with random but now its just you get one match and thats it.
I'm going to be honest, I've been falling off my own journey mentally for a while. Berating myself for not meeting my own demands, my own deadlines or what have you, on a daily basis. What you said towards the end about looking at how you treat yourself mentally really resonated with me. I don't know what pushed me into this path this time, but I just thought you should know you planted something helpful in my psyche tonight.
I'm glad my video resonated with you, just know that when I figure something out like that it's coming from a very personal place. Right now I'm trying to re-imagine my TH-cam channel and branch out into new content (just quit streaming on Twitch after 9 years of it), and I'm really stressed out about the Ls I'm taking lately with the algorithm and numbers. I'm trying to remember that this is just part of the process, and that I should focus on the work instead of judging myself... so yeah my words at the end came from something I'm dealing with too.
find you're own path that make you happy, have dreams and visions.... otherwise you will lose you're magic. eat good sleep well look after yourself physically and mentally. You got it bro.....
My main problem with SBMM is that is forced into casual games even when that game already has a ranked mode which makes you feel like you can never just relax and enjoy the game and instead have to sweat every game for no reward of a rank up or anything like that
I am generally quite a bad player of dota 2, and lately due to my age showing, my reaction times and decisionmaking has severely diminished over time, AND YET... im an advocate for sbmm, because otherwise, id just get matched up against players who are just TOO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD, resulting in stomps. Sbmm at least alleviates some of that even in the casual turbo mode.
@@Puppetmaster2005 sbmm is good for competitive games like dota and should stay. Cod is a casual game. No need for sbmm to be tuned this high. Every single game is different and sbmm should be tuned appropriately to that specific game.
Casual lobbies and Ranked Lobbies. Casual lobbies don’t count towards one’s K/D or other stats, whereas Ranked does. Casual doesn’t have SBMM; Ranked does. *Casual yields half the XP to encourage people to play Ranked. Ranked has visible brackets. -Rewards for higher tiers -tourney invites for top tier -Cash reward for a tourney -Make players want to push for higher tiers. Problems solved. It’s so easy a cave a man could do it.
The biggest problem with SBMM is that you never FEEL like you're getting better. The only real feedback you get for actually improving at the game, is seeing your "rank" go up. In the olden days you knew you were getting better because you weren't getting stomped. You started moving up the leaderboards. You could help your team more. These days; the SBMM algo literally optimizes for you having a 50/50 win/loss ratio -- so even if you do get DRASTICALLY better at the game, you'll still be winning and losing 50% of your matches. You won't feel that improvement, your games stay the same difficulty the entire time.
Yeah COD’s match making is horrendous because it goes beyond just put you against equally skilled players. It’s always trying to keep you in a equally 50/50 so even when you do win a match it’s totally unrewarding because you just assume the MM decided it was your time to get one. You never truly earn the win, or anything for that matter, it’s just given too you.
The thing is sbmm is there for people who want to know exactly how good they are... And they want to keep getting better or have some sort of acknowledgment for their ability in a game.. If you want so play for fun.. you can anytime.. queue for casual lobbies in most game.. unfortunately few games still use your hidden mmr to match you in casual games as well which maybe should be removed but I don't really think it matters that much.. because I don't think the lack of enjoyment comes from going easy.. it mainly stems from being forced to play every game seriously coz of the ranks of other players being also dependent.. so in casual modes you can play however the fuck you want without being screamed at.. But the problem with people who hate sbmm is that they don't want to play casual mode i dont even know why.. if you really just wanna have fun then go play unranked games.. i do this all the time.. At this point i don't even get what the fuss is about.. I think the feeling improvement part can ezly be solved by making sure that the unrated game modes have very broad skill levels for matchmaking or none but i think no sbmm will ruin the barrier for entry for new players so there should stay some little amount of protection for them.
@@d4nkdesu How about just Stop putting your fingers in the pie? I know it's hard to believe and it's really hard for people to cope with the fact that they need to leave things alone, but it's easy; just don't use an algorithm. The issue is that this solution is counterproductive to the company's goal on having a larger player base. Here we explore the concept of quality over quantity. In a normal game with no algorithm, individuals who cannot overcome the learning curve and become good at a game tend find different games that they win more in. Unfortunately, the company's statistics show that algorithms are the optimal strategy to get the highest player base and the most Revenue out of them. So no, it's not just ranked matches that have SBMM it's every single game mode lol. It's delusional to think that they would even tell the truth when the ROI is much higher when they manipulate games.
@@d4nkdesu You completely missed the point of the video. The problem is having SBMM in CASUAL game modes, not a ranked game mode. A ranked game mode wouldn't be ranked without SBMM lol. "Few games still use your hidden mmr to match you in casual games," Few?? Nearly every popular new release is using a hidden rating system in casual, that's why so many people are up in arms about it.
If you take out SBMM, you eliminate smurfing entirely. You can't get on a low level account and stomp. You have to hope the Game God gives you a bunch of noobs randomly. You throw a random set of people into a lobby, then split the teams off based off the stats. Even if a .01% player gets in with noobs, they'll most likely be on his team to balance it out. And I don't understand the point of SBMM in public lobbies when there is RANKED. That is literally what Ranked and Comp modes were made for. Climb and play amongst people your own level. Then go to pubs where it's nonexistent and you can have real fun and not sweat. Now how would that kill a player base?
It’s simple. SBMM ruins casual gaming. You play casually , ideally get better and therefore get better results. SBMM works to directly counter that. If operated optimally you can never improve your results as you will always be paired with players of identical skill lvl as when you started. Only good reason for SBMM is protecting new players
The thing I hate about SBMM is that I can't play with my friends. I'm a 3+ KD player in COD and my friends are all 0.8-1.4 KD players. They go from playing alone and getting 20 kills a match to playing with me and getting 3 kills. I don't blame them for not wanting to play in those lobbies, but it really sucks to be unable to play together and have no rank or anything to show for it.
@@treeskers I work 60 hours a week as a medical lab scientist. I'm a full time student on top of that. I play games a few times a week. I'm just naturally great at almost all games. Nice try though!
Same issue in OW2, even in Quickplay there's SBMM. When I play with my buddies who are either new to the game or just not that good, I can stomp the enemies in every single game but the homies are struggling because my hidden rank boosts the enemy team's rank and makes the games too hard and quite often unenjoyable for them. Very annoying.
@@santasbrother3590 Ya I've had the same issue with Overwatch 2. Played one game where I was at 21,000 damage and my friend as the other DPS was struggling at 5k 😫
@@santasbrother3590 yep. im pretty good at overwatch compared to most of my friends and thus have fun whenever we play together, usually win every game as long as im playing tank, but then we queue with our god gamer friend and even though i can keep up the rest of my friends are having a terrible time. i get that sbmm is kind of required in a game like overwatch, even on qp, but i wish there was some sort of system to account for varied groups
I remember playing the OG MW2 and getting wrecked going 2-20. Did that make me quit? No, I just got better with time and COD remained my #1 FPS for years. Until MW2019/WZ changed everything about COD MP and turned it into a miserable manipulative experience. I still haven't picked up MWii as of writing and have no urge to, despite all the hype and praise...probably the honeymoon phase talking again.
War owl i know you consider yourself mainly a csgo youtuber but these deep dives and gaming journalism type vids are really entertaining and well made! You should definitely make some more of these
This is a pretty good summary of what I've experienced with the Cod launch, wanting to play with friends and chill but my SBMM is so much higher than theirs that they don't even want to play with me anymore. I like the solution of expanding the SBMM, but I also think adding a competitive mode can help weed out the "tryhards" to modes where people are actually wanting something more challenging instead of forcing my friends to play with people way above their skill level and ruining their experience.
THIS. Pros dont play casual matches anyway when a good Ranked mode exists. But CoD doesnt have a strong competitive scene. Like I know the pro-scene exists, but it does not have the same appeal to CoD players as say the LoL or CSGO pro scene have to their player base. A really really good CoD player will still prefer to pub-stomb instead of playing in a mode that would tell him he's Diamond II but leaves him with a 0.88 KD. The culture itself kind of has to change. I hate it lol
Problem with creating a competitive mode is the casual queues die because people see it as a waste of time to play matches that don’t reward them with skill points 😂
So this doesnt really work, apex has both casual and ranked but the casual aspect is just as sweaty as ranked only difference is you dont get a show rating in casual, thats it the only difference between the two game modes you have to completely change how sbmm works fundamentally or abolish it altogether, you cant take half measures where full measures are needed. Also saying "tryhards wont play casual" just isnt true there will always be tryhards who are to bad to climb in a ranked setting but tryhard enough to sweat in casuals so they can in some way call themselves good.
@@brendondavid7349 nah not in CoD, its usually the opposite. they don't make ranked play in CoD that often because people don't play it, they just play casual.
@@brendondavid7349 it's only regarded as a waste of time because SBMM exists in casual playlists. Why try hard in casual playlists where you do not get any rewards like "magic number go up or down" for playing well? Just play ranked, and then you can get that. The dichotomy should be this: try hard in ranked where the meta matters, and you'll be tested by other, equally talented players. Then, if you're looking to mess around and have fun, or hell to test out a new build that you wanna use for ranked, go to a casual playlist where things like "meta weapons/ perks" do not matter as much.
dude, that closing statement.. I needed that. I struggle with enjoying matchmaking exactly because I judge myself all the time. hearing you say it don't matter, it's just a tool. that really took a burden off of my shoulders.
Yeah why is it even called SBMM still when your “skill” is only used to match you with players either so much higher that your weapon choice is only cosmetic, or so much lower that racking up kills isn’t even satisfying? Its real name in newer games is EOMM now.
The solution is to do what TF2 does. Instead of putting together a lobby where everyone is the same rating, it puts together teams with similar average ratings. That way the overall match is balanced allowing new players to still be winning games, while also allowing individually skilled players to experience their skill compared to players of all skill levels. I thinks it’s a big reason so many people talk about how rewarding it is to improve at TF2. Every match is a display of different skill levels that allow you to experience how far you have come.
I mean thats just how it worked back when you only had community servers. You just hop on a server thats the closest to what you want to play right now, and the players naturally follow a normal distribution. Sure sometimes its unbalanced but thats what the good old scramble teams was for.
You have to keep in mind that TF2 is a 12v12 game. COD and most other shooters are either 5v5 or 6v6, which makes this approach much harder to implement
Getting dumped on by your friends is so different than getting dumped on by strangers. People should get encouraged too play in smaller communities in MW2 to get around SBM.
I'll say this the story you told about being a competitive gamer who still wants to get good after getting crushed by the better players being a healthy mindset just got yourself as subscriber buddy
Good points. I do wonder how many COD people want non-SBMM for the smurfing aspect rather than the "I can play with non meta guns" aspect though. I suspect there's plenty of people who want to use the meta guns to take over lobbies assuming there's no SBMM. Especially since COD culture is so built upon huge killstreaks and "fragging the noobs". Definitely agree with the take that casual modes in games could do with a wider variance in MMR.
COD culture is built around unlocking gun camos. Which requires you to use crappy guns and complete stupid challenges. If you are a CS guy try this. Try to kill 100 enemies by shooting them in the foot with the pistol while playing ranked CS. And then when you inevitably want to kill yourself because trying to complete challenges that require you to handicap yourself when everyone is the same skill as you is impossible, you will understand. Everyone wants to use off meta weapons because in order to unlock the best camos you have to complete every challenge with every weapon. That is what COD games have been about, they were basically chatrooms where people grinded out challenges for gun skins. The only time you bothered putting on your meta loadout and actually trying hard was if someone on the other team was talking trash. COD has never been about fragging the noobs and getting huge killstreaks. Thats why the term "tryhard" is an insult in the COD community. Because playing like that was generally frowned upon.
OW2 for example, Unranked is just a clusterfuck. I'm a new player (had ow1, didnt play it a lot). The games are so random all the time. One game you'll get the absolute newbie playing soldier76, he gets rekt, less than 1000 dmg at the end of the match. Then, you also get the god Genji who does the triple shuriken headshot dash blowjob melee combo and just deletes you from existence. The games are almost always a stomp with very few games feeling like they're balanced. Competitive is just competitive and honestly, it's fun. But whatever you do do NOT play open queue, worst mistake of my life. 4 tanks and youll understand why role queue is a thing.
Another problem with SBMM is that it has no way whatsoever to compensate for consistency. On my best days, I play far, far better than on my worst days, and I'm not at all consistent here. Skill based matchmaking actively works against me here. This also means I can only ever choose to play one way on an account- casually, or competitively. Once you're set in a skill bracket, you're stuck with what you picked first, unless you're willing to suffer through ten to twenty matches that are not balanced to that. The biggest problem here is what ranked matchmaking actually achieves: it pushes players to play the game competitively at all times, which is a horribly unhealthy mindset. Now, the obvious solution here is to let players turn off SBMM. There's no follow-up: this is just a solution.
This reminds me of those big 16v16 Dust 2 24/7 servers on 1.6. All the noobs would rush in and die first and the higher skilled players would clean up and duke it out in the final moments of the round. The server would auto balance teams to make it even. I don't think SBMM is required for casual mode, but maybe since COD doesn't have a round based system, then it doesn't apply (aside from S&D, but doesn't last as long as a cs match)
SBMM drove me from all the online games I played. Like I don't mind the whole "you will only face other players of similar skill" thing where you rank up. What I do mind is things like balancing teams based on skill where the better you get the worse your teammates get to compensate.
Yeah this is definitely a problem for overwatch 2, so I deleted it. Gonna do the same to MW2 soon cos it just bores me, even when I do good I can’t enjoy it
play planetside, where there is no matchmaking at all. everyone is on the same map and among the 20-200 (depends on how many show up) players in the fight can be of any rank.
I purposely don’t go for objectives in cod games because I know I will just get punished for winning. I have seriously considered reverse boosting just to have fun in a game I play completely casually…
Usually when I hear this come up, all I hear is "I just want to play against worse players to stroke my ego", but it occurred to me that most of my matchmaking happens in fighting games, where I don't have to worry about teammates flaming me for missing a punish, which I could definitely see as a bad part of SBMM
Well that is a part of it, but also the fact that many people miss the feeling of hopping on cod to just run around and shoot other players without having to concentrate. When every lobby turns into a league play match it negates the reason many people play cod: to have a casual shooter to just run around in.
I never got the whole “I only wanna go against worse players than me” because there’s a higher chance of getting insanely cracked players on the other team with no sbmm. One thing I really missed about bo2 was how varied the lobbies were. I could sit back and relax and play pistols only a mess around and the next match it balls to the wall. Made it so fun
The problem is it's not proportionate. If you're the best player you should win the vast majority of your games. If you're the worst player you should lose a vast majority.
WarOwl, the problem with SMBB is broader: same system can be applied not only to balance people based on their mesaured skill but also, for example, on their latest ingame purchases to create an "easy match-up scenarios" for someone who purchased skins recently to create "positive reinforcement" (i bought smth -> feels good to own with my newly bought skin) and to control "randomness" of random elements in someones favor (handicaping newcommers/payers/returning players to keep retention higher). Activision has patents for all there systems, sadly.
Perfect explanation. I’ve played Call of duty for 14 years. Bought and played every game since. I should and am better than the majority of players. I shouldn’t be penalised for this with awful connection lobbies. I should be matched with any player regardless of skill but based solely on ping so I can have the best possible experience. So what if I’m better than majority of players 14 years ago playing MW2 2009 at 8 years old I had a 0.6 kd. I had good games but mostly bad games. And I learnt by better players to be better. You wouldn’t have that if I also matched with 0.6KD player every game. Also means I can’t really play with friends without them struggling in my lobbies and not having fun. It’s a joke. Ranked it there for this reason. Public lobbies should be ping based only. it’s a shame
thank you so much for making this video man. I've been playing COD for the last ten years, and it's great to see someone with an outside perspective like you understand why above average cod players hate SBMM so much.
I am a below average COD player and I hate SBMM. You don't have to be good at the game to enjoy things like less lag, persistent lobbies, and a sense of progression. Plus if the only reason I am doing well is because the game is giving me easier opponents... that destroys any sense of accomplishment, and frankly feels a little insulting.
Yup. I played with my two best friends last year and they were new at the game. I stomped out the first few easy sbmm tilted lobbies and so it gradually raised our level and they were unable to compete because it was filling the game with players on my level as compensation. Sucks to not be able to play with friends unless you're as good as one another.
Also MM systems that discriminate against ping, I've had games where I couldn't even MM into other servers with my USA friends even though the ping is only 180-200ms which is perfectly fine for non-competitive games.
But that's where it gets hard. People will just abuse that friend system to get some W's for their fragile egos. I used to wanna be better cause duh, but now it's exhausting.
I've found two approaches to playing with friends: 1) You play your best and try to carry, you will win a lot early and then game will become too hard for your friends and you end up unable to carry because enemies are good. Also your friends most likely end up feeling useless because they will have very low impact. 2) You still play your best but on more passive positions and try help your friends learn the game, by suggesting them good positions and how to play them. So that the win condition is more dependent on your friends, instead of you. That way you most likely won't win that much early but overtime it will help your friends to gradually get better and everyone ends up having a more enjoyable time overall. This approach also has a big plus that your friends won't feel like they are useless in the matches you play together.
The first day I played valorant I went up against a lvl 60 something account and a mix from 30-45 my teams overall level averaged to about 7. We didn’t stand a chance
One of the biggest flaws in SBMM systems is that it inherently fragments the playerbase to a high degree. Of course that varies depending on how lenient the matchmaking system is when matching with ratings, but overall the playerbase is much smaller. You can play a game that has 20k players online globally, but only a couple hundred (or even a few dozen) of players playing in your rating. There are even less players that are actually ready to be placed in matches with you at the same time as a lot are probably already in matches which you can't be matched against. This leads to playing in game lobbies with the same people, playing in lobbies that aren't full of players, and/or playing in lobbies that took 10+ minutes to find a match even. Everyone's defense to SBMM is "what about the new players?", and that is a problem that can easily be solved outside of SBMM. Even if you don't cater towards them with special rules or modes, the amount of new players compared to the total amount of players is very small (hence the distribution graph). Eventually these players will move up into the "averages", but the people at the top will just keep going up as well. I think it should be fine that you have a 2% chance of playing an insane player in your match considering the most players are going to be the average players. Needing to "protect" people from really good players is just a dumb thing to have in every game mode. That is why games have ranked modes that are separate from the normal modes. Overall, I do agree with Tim that SBMM is doing more harm than good in games that A) don't need it, or B) in modes that aren't competitively ranked. Having it in games just to protect a small minority of people (the noobs) from another small minority of people (the sweats) is just insane considering you are potentially ruining the game for the literal majority of players.
@@bernardeugeniomajority of players are average skill level meaning they know how to play the game and those people who are slightly above average don’t have the most fun in the game even tho they are a part of the majority, the people who have the most fun are the noobs (low skilled players, and those who are slightly below average everyone else is not having the best time cause they always play people who are their level or above not below, slightly below average play against the same level or below which makes it more fun. The average player is not having a great time (I am an average player on Fortnite and slightly above average on cod) and when I play pubs It feels like I am playing ranked every game, which I don’t find enjoyable
Literally, every match feels like ranked, in the sense of "If I goof around and try to have fun I go negative," to bring the conclusion even further, Fortnite ranked is literally less competitive than PUB until you get in the top tier which obviously is MEANT to be sweaty...@@lHeatedl
@@lHeatedl yeah, that's how it is with phantom forces on roblox, it kinda just feels like you can't play the game at an average skill level because everyone else fucking steamrolls you. I know the "get good" idea is kinda relevant, but at a point the games are not catering to the average players that want to get good, and ultimately kinda kills games. that's the SBMM that I'd like, the part that you can CHOOSE to play or not, where you could actually play with other players that won't steamroll you, but also don't suck dick at the game.
Another problem is that not everyone plays to their own skill level all the time. Some people might have a day when they are absolutely destroying everyone and hitting every shot then the next day you can't even get one kill.
That’s called sbmm. Back in the day it was kill or get wrecked. Never knew what the lobbies were gonna be like. Now adays I know it’s gonna be shroud on the other team every time I play. I’m done playing mw2. I’m level 183 with 50 guns platinum, I’m bored to death, it’s not fun, I was grinding but I can’t do it anymore. I’m a casual player. I don’t want to feel like I’m playing like there’s 100k on the line every fucking time I play.
If you have a good day, go play some competitive playlist. If not, go to the casual game mode. If you started to sweat in the casual playlist, you're no longer playing casually and the game will balance you out.
@@RevCosmin When I wrote this comment there wasn't a competitive playlist available only casual matches. Secondly it's irrelevant as having more than one skill based matchmaking system in the same game is just stupid and pointless.
I love the comparison between games and waterparks, as of lately I've not enjoyed many online games cause as you said their removing the "water slide" and "kiddie pool" from newer titles and only making a "lap pool". I think game devs really need a way so everyone can be a part of the game not just the sweats. After all a waterpark without a slide or kiddie pool really isn't much of a waterpark.
the problem is that the people that put more hours and money in the game are tryhards, so devs are targeting a very small niche of people that can invest a ton of money to get skins and all of that, that same people play for more than 2 hrs a day all the week, bcs is more easy to trust that kind of people that trust casuals that maybe just buy the main game and thats it, the business model changed when microtransactions boomed, so unless a new group of devs think a different and even better way to balance and earn money, this is base line
@@therokku7393 Well it's ultimately up to the actual company. I forget where I heard this, but it goes something like this "When the marketing team starts to outweigh the engineering team that's where a company starts to decline." I believe that this is an issue with managers and execs are wanting to push with what their marketing department is developing on. Ever since AAA games have become more corporate it has become much much less consumer friendly. For reference look at the indie market and some double A games right now, for the way that consumers are treated.
"git gud" is it terrible response to skill-based matchmaking because until you become literally the best in the world the SBMM will just continue to raise no matter how good you get and you'll be in the same situation
yup, and there is no way to get better if you keep dying before you even know what is happening. Which is why even matches are the best to improve. Against opponents that are just slightly better than you, so that you have to do your best, but have a chance.
@@ELGUAPOIV I want to have fun, with a side of competition. When competition is the only mode of existence fun isnt available. Turns out this is a hobby not a job. If I was getting paid for this I wouldnt complain as much lmao
Thats not true. Even in the video showing, if you are better than average, the most player you will be playing against and with are gonna be worse than you. Its just shifting the radius of players you can be queued. As a better than average Player, you have always more player behind your Rank as infront of you nearby. So, as a good player you can be constantly winning and have a good time, because you also doenst get boosted straight in your skill rank after a good game or even series. You have to be good for a long period, to be rank up in the skill rank.
Anyone born after 99 is what's ruining gaming. These kids have no interest in the experience or beauty of games. They only want to consume and move to the next game. It's only about the flex for them it will never be about the game.
When Titanfall 2 was on its last legs before the NS client I used to get into lobbies with some of the highest ranked players in the world who had been there since day one simply through casual que and just play the game. The game did not have SBMM and it has spawned some of the best memories I have ever had in gaming, any time I managed to kill one of them it felt like a genuine accomplishment and I felt that I was getting better at the game as a result. Keeping people at a 50% win rate just stifles their drive to improve at anything as no matter how much they improve there will always be someone better than them and they never feel as though they are improving. I'm not a fan of ranked modes, but at least the little medals and titles give you something to fight for, SBMM has just turned casual into a second ranked playlist that you cant see people's ranks in, a mode that instead of rewarding you with a higher spot on the scoreboard through mechanical and strategic development just psychologically beats you over the head with a feeling of unworthiness as you cannot even defeat people who are supposed to be at the same skill level as you. In a lobby that is completely random sure you may run into pros but you can easily shake a loss from this as just bad luck, but if you are told that these people are just as good as you and you can't beat them the game goes from a form of escapism to an addictive method of psychologically torturing yourself. The problems with SBMM are worsened exponentially in a team game like CS or Overwatch as your success rests just as much on your team as it does on you even though this often does not feel the case when playing, leading to a multiplicative effect on how badly you feel after a loss.
i feel this. i remember playing tribes a few years ago on the last server left with maybe 5-10 people on, all excellent players and every kill i got would feel 10x better than a kill in a sbmm game like cod or apex
We would win 3 out of 4 games all the time in halo 3 ranked. You would constantly see level 47+ players get waffle stomped by equal ranked opponents. Playing top tier players at all times is strenuous. I can’t imagine implementing that method in casual
@@SavingSoulsMinistries The top their payers thing was more of an anecdote about how resigning myself to failure initially then lead to a much more enjoyable experience once I gave up the notion that winning mattered. However SBMM prevents this from happening in any game it is implemented as you always feel that you have a chance at victory which gives it some meaning only to be let down when you inevitably lose any match you don't sweat your balls off, and when you do sweat your balls off and win/get a good K/D the next game you get put into a higher bracket without your knowledge or consent and then immediately curbstomped.
That's the problem with CoD, us that it's trying to be with the big boys of Esports but the game requires little skill to do well and degenerative strategies form (brecchi, claymores, camping, etc). Rocket jumping in TF2 may take you a few days or weeks to understand and months and years to master. Slide canceling in the last 3 CoDs will take you about a few hours to understand and can be mastered in a day or less. Casuals are hating CoD for being too sweaty and stressful while ACTUAL competitive players from other FPS games find CoD to be disappointing and boring as there is nothing to hone and get good at. Sure sniping requires good aim but it's not original or unique to CoD, and you can argue that snipers in other games require more skill than CoD.
The hard truth is, I just don't have time to get super good at games anymore. That's why I've basically stopped playing competitive multiplayer games. You're either the guy getting pubstomped or the guy doing the pubstomping. There doesn't seem to be much in between. Battlefield used to be a game where you could contribute greatly to your team's success and have a great time without having to be an amazing FPS player, but that franchise is basically dead after Battlefield 2042.
I tried siege for this reason. I only did support roles basically. Droned in my teammates or was on cams to call enemy locations out. Or was making plans and IGLing. Roles that could greatly increase success - which they did :D Honestly, it's the only reason I had fun in the game
TH-cam notifs tell me you replied to me, but I can't see your comment. Regarding monster hunter which honestly never occurred to me. On the outside looking in it always seemed like a game to "grind out". Most RPG-like games tend to be. Either you grind it out to stand a chance or you will always be super weak / miss out on seasonal stuff that's just flat out better then everything else. But after the way you described it, I'll have to give it a try 😂
The thing I hate about this sbmm conversation is that everyone has different conflicting reasons for why they don’t like sbmm. Your reason is that sbmm makes you care about skill too much but other people say they don’t get to see their skill enough. On top of that the takes I see get most upvoted are in reference to how sbmm makes you play against “sweats” every time and therefore you can’t have fun which I feel is just a completely nonsensical take since you could just try to have fun until your rank equalizes out. The whole discussion is so pointless and confusing.
Thing is, SBMM is fair and square, especially for low skilled players. People crave for casual but don't look for these less skill players. My own problem is that SBMM takes your time to match with people that is the same as you, and that CAN TAKE A LONG TIME. I just want to hop on a game quick. Another is that, while SBMM matches you with people in your level, they tend to not put you in the sane connection lobby. So instead you're getting stomped because the other guy (which the skill is equal to you) just has a better connection to the match. Skill is not the problem in SBMM, it's the time and connection aspect.
Haven't enjoyed online games since like 2010 for this reason tbh. I just wanna chill and goof around. Not play against tryhards 24/7 who never touch grass.
i think something you couldve touched on was the impact of always playing competitively and how it bleeds over into other gamemodes and whatnot. i only play csgo in community servers and when scrimmage first came out i was pretty eager to try it but every single time i played it it was more intense than actual competitive. and even in the community servers it feels every week it just gets more and more serious to the point that the regular competitive gamemode is a more laidback time. the experience i have had with multiplayer games has had fun steadily drained out and replaced with sweat and tears. whats the point of even playing a game on specifically the unranked and casual servers if it will be the exact same on competitive servers? whats the point of playing your hardest and trying to win as much as you can if its in a completely meaningless gamemode when you can queue for a match and atleast try to get a rankup or at the very least play against people that are also playing the same way? when someone has doxed me so far two times in a csgo community server because instead of staring at a corner for a minute and then executing a site i ran through 2 mollies and running hs them right before i die i think maybe its beginning to be too far gone.
I think this is why battlefield bc2, 3 and 4 were my jam. Find a server, play with super elites and major noobs all in one server. Now it’s like you join an instance and are matched with people exactly at your skills level, and it doesn’t feel organic.
thats how it is now still, take warzone for example. you get high level youtubers spectating other people in their games (after crying SBMM makes everyone in their game a pro), and these people cant even climb ladders or have the most garbage loadouts and strategies. SBMM is just a way for people now to cry they cant stomp noobs in cod
I used to play on the Objective Pushers hard-core server on BF4. I got dogwalked for awhile. Then I got good and learned certain players' play styles and dominated. I play for Ws, not KDRs. These skill whores are pathetic.
SBMM will allways hurt CASUAL games. Why the hell do you want skill based gameplay in casual mods? It makes no sense playerwise. The best solution for casual gameplay are servers. So you can pick the skill level you want. Playing against better players? Nice. You can learn from them. Playing against terrible players? Nice. They can learn from you. And at everytime you and they can leave and search a new server. Players can organize themself if you let them. It worked for ages and is by far the better solution.
Dude I feel like a monster TBH now that look back on my BF3-4 days. Dude when that Atack chopper wins the air duel with the other chopper its over for people on the ground. Sure you get some try-hards that try to kill you but when you have an amazing chopper team it's over. I'm a mass murderer...
Casual is too hard. I need SBMM to work correctly, and I've never found a game where it did. I seem to ALWAYS get put against people with perfect aim and instant reaction times. That isn't me and I will only ever get slower as I age. It's really frustrating.
The other problem with SBMM on cod specifically is that it doesn’t actually work how people think it does. A lot of people complain about it being over reactive to you skill level, where you’ll have 1 good game and then get stomped, but really that’s intended. The game throws you in easy lobbies intentionally every once in a while so that you can have some fun, but then it forces you to give other players their fun by putting you in a match with people whom you have no hope of competing with.
I think its the sense of progress that is completely missing in sbmm, its not the wanting to dumpster players, its the fact that you could load up into your first cod game and have the exact same kd as you get in your 1000th game.
Highest quality content as usual from you. I just talked about this with my Overwatch friend group when OW2 released. I have not enjoyed competitive OW for a long while now. But I simply changed my attitude by playing competitive as I do quickplay. I just simply play the heroes I want, and switch to heroes I want to counter the other team. And I dont let pressure or my teammates get to myself. I havent seen any change in rank or anything. Just that I have enjoyed competitive more than ever.
Cod is supposed to be the most casual shooter yet it had some of the most strict matchmaking I’ve ever felt. Especially in mw2 it’s so bad that when I do good I don’t feel anything positive. I know the game just gave me that lobby because they think it’ll make me more addicted but it actively pushed me away and I know it’s like that for most people
I think the stronger opinions against SBMM from seasoned CoD players stem from experiences in the past games as well. MW2019 and to a lesser extent 2020s Black Ops CW (and I can't speak for Vanguard since I didn't play it) had this type of issue, where the skill rating would jump incredible amounts from a single match. You could go up in rating very quickly but coming back down wasn't as fast. If you played a particularly good game, you would be catapulted to games where you had no business being in. To illustrate this I can use CSGO ranks for this. Average player around MG1 would play an exceptional game and immediately be placed around LEM rank players for around 2-5 games, getting their face sufficiently smashed in, before getting lowered back down to where they started at around GNM to MG2. The system in these games seemed to have a very limited scope of games where it took your average skill form, so huge changes from one game like explained previously would have a profound effect on this invisible ranking. When I played, I had to actively keep this in mind and limit myself from doing too well in a game, just to have a good time in my skill group.
There's definitely some interesting takes on skill based matchmaking. Slippi's matchmaking system for Melee makes it so only beginner players have SBMM, they'll all get to play each other and as they get better the system gets significantly more lenient. Obviously the cultural difference of playing to improve rather than stomp is a major factor, but it's still an interesting system to consider.
Hold up a minute. You're telling me I can playing Smash Bros. Melee online? I need to look into this. I'll probably just get dumpstered by players who know how to wavedash and L-cancel, but it sounds cool (assuming Nintendo doesn't Thanos snap it like they always do with cool fan projects).
@@qu1253 Yeah you can, and it's actually pretty easy to do. It also has better rollback netcode than the vast majority of fighting games. It helped bring lots of newer people into the game a couple years ago, some of which are already very good, so don't be too intimidated!
But SBMM is not problem at high ranking. Worst part of SBMM is above average players downranking purposefully to take a hot steaming dump on lemmings while on their little ego trip. How could anyone seriously complain about SBMM at the upper end - I'm living the dream in top25%, I wish every game with matchmaking had SBMM so my games are only populated with like-minded players... Fuck, when I was still playing War Thunder half a decade ago I would willingly to pay monthly subscription to not get matches that were one-sided stomping grounds... It's not fun on either end of the spectrum.
@@qu1253 yup! Slippi/dolphin has great netcode too :) I highly recommend it. It also saves all replays of your games. I just plugin a GameCube controller and go.
Haven’t seen your videos in a long time but glad to have returned and see TWH is still a voice of reason, respectful, and a great voice in the dialogue of gaming. Big props.
This was explained so well. I knew these things but the graph really put it into perspective.There are less Tim's than lower skilled players. It makes sense to cater to the earlier end to the middle of the pack players.
@Guy Whose opinions will offend youIndeed, I am at a point also in my life where I would probably benefit from sbmm cause my skills aren’t what they used to be. I know it doesn’t matter that much, I just found it interesting because my adolescent self would not have appreciated this break down as much as I do now. I also can see where these companies are coming from because again, it is a business.
Higher skilled players, I would think, would be less likely to engage with the store. If you have the skill to level up quick, to unlock characters, to grind "cool" camos, to level up characters/weapons... why spend money on anything? It makes sense to me, that the lower end of the skill curve would be the ones buying x2 XP, DLC camos, DLC weapons, etc
Your mention on sports is what I have said for a very long time. Many players of a competitive game have never played sports in their lives and never learned how to function inside that competitive arena. In physical sports you know real fast if someone else is just better than you. You cant blame your teammates for everything. Of course it can still happen to a degree but far less than competitive gaming. A coach and teammates will force you to see your pitfalls and study game film to get better.
Also, if you pop off to a teammate while playing sports, the consequences can be felt instantly: you can get smack'ed, lose friends, get a tell off by your coach, get benched, etc etc. I think irl sport teach a lot to a person when later playing team based videogames.
I'm so happy I grew up a competitive gamer watching professional gaming events. Like I know when to actually blame a team mate for losing (respectfully) and when I'm just a cheap bad player that moment.
My issue is that every match feels so similar and the fact that I can’t really play with my group as the skill range varies from relatively low to on the pretty high end of normal
"They have a point" -> They want to smack little kids. And dont matchup with players of equal level of playtime/skill at the game. They just want to stomp Andy, 8
I personally don't care too much about SBMM, but I see why it's a bad thing. Once you've reached a certain skill group you won't be able to just casually play and just have fun with goofy loadouts or something like that, because everyone in your lobby will only play with the mindset to win. In those skill groups "play for fun" turns into "play to win". I can understand why not everyone likes that, and I don't understand why developers don't simply create comp and casual game modes to give people the choice what they wanna play. That said, of course there are also plenty of people who hate SBMM, simply because now they can't farm noobs to look good in front of their 100 Twitch viewers.
No, they want everyone to have games that are fun instead of every player always having a 1.00 kd never feeling like they improve and never having a satisfying multiplayer experience. The entire point of pvp games is to want to beat other players and have good games. that is the entire draw. SBMM punishes 99% of players. There are no casual games where you can just lay back and have a good game. You will always be playing against people just as good as yourself. This means if you wanna play well you will have to try your ass off.
@@ADadasadasdadw Thats why they should have two things: SBMM and Dedicated Servers for whenever you want to feel like a god stomping on Timmy 11 on his dell computer from 2008.
I played competitive tf2, once. I thought I'd be matched up with people of my own low-skill level. Did not think at all about the fact that due to competitive costing money, only sweats play it. Despite not getting flamed at all, I still feel like shit for genuinely bottom fragging so hard the couple of matches I played. I don't think I got a single kill, and died veryy quickly after reaching a control point. Nothing I tried helped me do better at all, so I couldn't stop thinking of how much I was ruining my teammates' game :(
I agree. SBMM really killed the fun. It used to be a healthy mix of skill. There was always 1-4 outliers at the top and everyone else was part of a range of skill and i usually was average with the occasional toping of the LB. However once SBMM came into play in games i consistently ended up at the bottom getting killed by people so fast i didn't even understand what was happening. I'm not a sweat and i just can't compete with that nor will i work an 8-5 job trying to beat them. I just don't play SBMM games anymore. I don't want both the enemy team and my team filled with what is essentially = to or better than the top 4 players in a normal game because when that happens your just shut out unless you have serious reflexes, play a very specific way (like they are doing), and in my case i had to play tactically to offset my poor reflexes. I don't ever remember winning a straight up fight with one of those players except in cases of sheer luck. It was almost always i out positioned them and had them at a serious disadvantage, and even then they won roughly 50% of the time because they were so good that they could still hit me even when i was very well positioned. Shots that I personally could NEVER reliably get and they got it very consistently. Leave SBMM for competative gaming. Leave casual gaming TF alone. I'm willing to bet that Meta builds are a direct result of SBMM forcing people to optimize gameplay when their skill reached a ceiling like mine did. Meta also kills games because it ruins variety and creativity. I had a spell where i did perform well in COD BO2 for example but i didn't enjoy it. It did it with 2 'meta' loadouts that focused on insane three-attatchment primaries. One was a sidearm, though i don't remember which one, and the other was a shotgun. Both setups increased damage and reduced hipfire spread so much you could get as good as or better than ADS accuracy while in a full sprint. Obviously, that actually worked well, but it got old so fast. it's not fun when you play meta and that meta is so obviously superior that you smash the opposition. It also taints your win because you know that artificial factors like using a meta build were key to your victory. For casual gametypes they really need to reintroduce the exceptionally wide range of player skill, but only slightly limit it to make sure that skilled players are dispersed fairly and no more than maybe 3 per team. The real meat of the game needs to be the mid and low skill players who actually have the manpower to win the game, while the high skill players can basically give a constant pressure to keep the game intense. This also allows a bit of learning to occur. You can't drop in a low 10% player in a full lobby of top 10% players and expect them to get any better. They will get mopped way to fast and often to really understand why they got killed. You need to seamlessly weave just a couple high skill players per game so that people can work with them, learn, and improve. Special exceptions for high skill players should be made in some games like battlefield 4 where a single high skill player can easily get 100+ kills in a helicopter in just a few minutes. in the cases where a high skill player can single handedly carry a game if not significantly threatened then there should be something done about it. Those are rare and battlefield 4 is probably one of the only ones i know of like that right offhand.
Honestly i wouldnt say meta builds are a result of SBMM at all, contary i think they generally are something that actually becomes more prevelant in casual/rankless lobbies. As the people who struggle the most with fighting meta are the lower experience players. The prevalance of a meta will always be in any game were winning or doing well is a goal, what matters is that the meta is fun and diverse. Which is the job of the developers themselves to balance.
I think not only does SBMM make it harder to just play a nice chill game, it also makes it harder to match people together in games with smaller populations.
Great video. I definitely want it back the way it was, having entire hours sessions with near the same players in a lobby honestly learning the game as a whole. I used to get destroyed back on MW2 in 09 until I just got better. But because I was playing with the crew it all became laughing points and working it out together. They removed that aspect of the game so far with how sophisticated SBMM is now. It’s been pointed out that it existed in those earlier CoD days, but ask around and no one felt it tbh. I will point out at this juncture it’s positioning casual time and competitive time as separate things with the current design. Just not sure how I feel about it atm.
My problem with it is when they skew the teams and make me derank because of it. For example if you put me on a team of silvers vs a team of golds then you are saying that you think im gold or better right. So why does it make me derank to bronze.
I think that there should be three systems for matchmaking that is included games. I think they should have a matchmaking type a casual without sbmm like old cod. The option to have casual with SBMM if you want it. And lastly they should have an actual ranked system like Csgo or r6.
@beenguy5887 It started with br's bc its not fun to hop on fortnite and lose every single match so they'll throw you a win here and there to keep you playing and in some games I noticed they seem to intentionally match you against people who have purchased something in the in-game store before they completely steam roll your entire team to try and get you to impulse buy
I think another issue is that with COD when you start playing against people who know the game the way you're forced to play just to compete . . . isn't fun.
Last Modern Warfare I was doing alright, then I decided to give myself a challenge to only play with pistols after a few games I was topfragging with them but ofcourse the satisfaction wore off (immediately) that exact moment that I realized I had just started being placed in worse lobbies... I think a big thing about video games is to relax and also be able to feel you are getting better at something in COD unless you are at the top 1% of players you are not going to get satisfied, I am not that player anymore so I just quit. The old games where you jumped in to community servers starting to recognize other player names and learning how they played and also have them react to how you played is no more, now it is just random meaningless player every game and while that can be fun sometimes it will never be the same as before unfortunately.
Skill based match making resulted in me having the same KD as all faze members in cod😂 It also ruined the ability to flex with your diamond camo as this is not earned anymore through skill but only how much you play. Skill based match making ruined games.
Dedicated server browsers are sorely missed. Bookmarking favorite servers with particular mods, and just getting to know people, and have a community to play with, is nice. Skill level doesn't have to matter.
Finally someone who gets the point across! I absolutely agree with everything you said here, the drawing and the way you explained the issue hits the nail on the head. SBMM is of course an integral part of gaming, but the window in unranked matches is way too tight. I used to play Apex Legends a lot with my friends who were pro players in that game, while I wasn‘t as good as them, I would say I was in the ballpark of skill. At some point in the game‘s life the SBMM got so incredibly specific that the game became unplayable for me. I got put in lobbies with professional players almost half the unranked matches I played, making the casual experience for me miserable, I never wanted to play to just try my heart out, I just wanted to enjoy the game and that enjoyment was utterly shattered with the state of SBMM in that game, eventually making me quit. I just do not agree with developers constantly trying to improve the SBMM, especially in games that have a seperate ranked game mode. At one point I was forced to play ranked simply because there I wasn‘t constantly facing literal pros. I hope more creators speak out against SBMM in a similar way to you.
I like that literally killed a play style where you constantly moving while aiming down the sights. You can do it in previous game like MW3 with perk Stalker you had 80-90% movement speed with your ar/smg. Nowadays it's barely a 50-60% without attachment and each touch it in some negative way.
I think the problem is, when a game is much more gamesense-oriented, like Overwatch 2, getting stomped by veterans as a new guy is much worse than the experience you described, cause not only are you getting shut down left and right, but you can't even tell why or how to improve from it. Because I remember my first experience with TF2, and it was mostly as you described it, progressively getting better with my aim on classes like Soldier and Sniper... until I decided to tackle Spy, a mostly gamesense-oriented class, and my beginnings with him became much more painful than with the others as I just kept getting screwed over and over by what seemed like the dumbest of luck -- like getting denied an easy backstab by someone who just respawned behind me, or getting hunted down by five people cause I accidentally bumped a half-drunk player while invisible, or just eating spam the exact moment I decided to cross a chokepoint -- that's just the kind of stuff you're not going to understand what went wrong precisely because it requires thinking several seconds ahead of time in order to see the problem and avoid it, rather than "oh, I died because I just missed most of my shots while they didn't, guess I better get gud".
@@hxsjdbdjavs nah not really, is it better then team fortress? Nah but it's still good and it shows that with its player count what you said couldn't be more ignorant
Maybe, it’s just because I’m a fighting game player. A genre that is defined by long term growth over instant gratification. But I will never understand any argument for why SBMM is bad when it’s just supposed to match people with players of the same skill level. If COD has bad SBMM then that’s a COD problem, not a problem with the system.
I mean there is a problem with the system and it's in multiple AAA games. warzone 2.0, overwatch 2, apex legends. I could keep going. I went from averaging 1 loss per 2 wins to a 27 loss streak in a single day.
@@MajorStupid I'm still confused though. how is you losing the games fault? Isn't that supposed to be something that's a reflection of yourself. If you're losing, isn't the proper recourse to, ya know... Git Gud. and, if you aren't trying to get good and just want to have fun. Then why does it matter whether you win or lose?
@@Persephone_07 because losing 20 games while your grinding for a character that you're required to get wins for isn't fun, and I was already pretty good right off the bat. One guy thought I was smurfing.
This video is specifically about COD, so I'll keep it to it's system for now. It seems to be the case that you are matched with people above and below your skill level. As WarOwl stated in the video, it's likely that the players upset about SBMM are, likely, above average (or just hear it talked about negatively, and have no real concept of what it's doing). So they will be matched against those who are very good at the game. The difference between a brand new player and a below average player is not as wide as an above average player and a top 10% player. The rate of improvement from new to average is far quicker than average to top 10%. Next, take into account that unless you play Free for All, you will be matched with a team. If you are a solo queue and go against a team of people who are queuing together, you will lose 9 times out of 10. It's very difficult to accurately balance a team of solo queue players and a squad of 6. There is no good answer for that problem, at least that I can see. Since your background is in fighting games, any time you lose, you can only look to your personal performance. You're being matched with an individual, so the gap of skill is much easier to keep track of for the matchmaking system. Multiply that by 6, and now you have to (likely) deal in team average instead of individual ability, which can make a MASSIVE difference in the final outcome. I don't think SBMM is inherently bad, just an issue for team based games. I don't know any elegant solutions for that if they're going to keep the information about what skill bracket you're in hidden from the player, as it will always be impossible to tell where you are and if you're matched against equal level players.
One thing i always remember is that, if i call someone an idiot for making a mistake and the next game i make the same mistake, i will automatically think myself as an idiot. And vice versa being more forgiving on other players helps you be more forgiving on yourself. Spread the positive vibes lads
I’m just trying to chill and have fun but all the games I play have sbmm and it’s just a sweatfest all the time. Especially when I’m never using meta weapons and what not
I think people have figured out how to game the SBMM in MW2. They play objective based gamemodes and just dont ever attempt to play the objective. They treat it like team deathmatch meaning they lose most games but get to play against really bad players that focus on the objective. This lets them feel powerful and get all their fun killstreaks and stuff. It makes people who do play the objective feel like their winning but have zero gratification because they know the other team is throwing.
Yeah, i'm guilty for that. TDM lasts about the same time i can scratch my balls, pretty much spend more time loading its all over so quickly. At least with objective modes rounds last longer, so more play time. SBMM i dont think works that way, even though i hardly play objective, i still suffer with SBMM. You'll get nothing and be happy about it, as they say 👍
I’m hoping with the implementation of a ranked system which I believe they stated they will be doing that it will let them lax up the SBMM on the casual games since the people looking to really try will go there
Even when I sucked at cod more than I do now, I still had fun going up against sweaty try hards, because then it felt so much more satisfying when you killed them. And then when you lost you can just blame it on the single individual. For casual games I think the ideal matchmaking would be to just throw random lobbies together and then sort the teams by skill to make them as fair as possible. If all those years ago I only went up against other shitty people like me, I wouldn't have gotten much better, but playing with good people I learned from them and was challenged to get better and beat them
yeah i couldnt be the only one who hears "you play against people who ARENT shit" and i think "that sounds wonderful actually, my main problem with mw2019 was how easy some games were" im not a loser who needs easy cheap wins there is nothing satisfying about killing a robot or a helpless child its too easy i want to get better i want to improve but hell maybe i actually like videogames and i dont just use them to validate my ego or others impression of my "skill" some of my best games of counterstrike are games where i lost 14-16 but both teams played their heart out i get happy just thinking about those games and i didnt even win.
A lot of this comes from game companies wanting to promote and own their own competitive scene by keeping player rankings as an integrated part of the game. In a way this is good because it streamlines everything that is necessary to become a legitimate E-Sport. It's when this comes at the cost of the casual fun of the game that it becomes a real problem.
But if there is no sbmm even in casuals, what's stopping the game from matching you against top players when you might not be. And if you are a top player, you might get ranked against newbies which isn't fun for either side. I think it should be much more lenient in casuals, but not out right removed.
@@mrmeatball1478 I get the argument for it, but people just saying "get gud" doesn't help anyone. For a casual game like this it needs an open mode where SBMM isnt a thing. If CoD want to enforce SBMM, i dont get why they don't make a ranked mode, show you your ranks so you can see progession and stuff like that rather than just having levels which mean fuck all.
@@PimsPlaysGamesIn my opinion not having sbmm in more objective based team shooters is pure torture. Without it, every game turns into a "stomp the enemy, or get stomped" kinda thing (even if your playing casuals) and it's not fun. In more arena based shooters like CoD though, yeah I'll agree, it really doesn't need sbmm.
@@mrmeatball1478 There 100% should be a ranked/sbmm mode in the game. Just not basic casual games, there should be its own ranked play list away from quick play modes. Now CS on the other hand is a completely different thing.
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZbsSDRrmXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Dont let the voice in your head tell you those negative things...
Thats a job for your teammates
unless your the teammate
The virgin intrusive thoughts vs The Chad "I'm the best" mindset
oooof taht the main reason i mute everyone lol just don't need one more layer of negativity in my life lol
your teammates job is make sure everyone knows how bad you are, thus making you perform better.
and also mute the team mates when they start with that....
Attaching a player's "worth" to a rank is definitely not great on a psychological level. Under SBMM, the motivation to get better is not linked to the inherent satisfaction that comes from personal improvement, it's now linked to a colorful badge that can be awarded and taken away by a system that is mostly just prioritizing queue times. I tend to agree with the opinion that SBMM is ruining a lot of games because it's making a lot of people disregard the actual gameplay elements of a video game. Instead, they're just focused on trying to grind their rank. THAT is the game now: "make rating number go up." Love-hate relationships with video games is at an all-time high as a result.
omg uncle dane!!!
Rating numbers for general SBMM in COD are invisible, no? Which is where most people who are complaining seem to be having a problem. In games like league, csgo, val, visible ranks are awarded because those games have specific game modes that are intended to be competitive.
Yeah and It also applies outside of video games for me at least
Like I tried to learn drawing and eventually the will to learn and the grind to the top stop being in sync for me and nowadays, it's hard for me to learn new things because I don't feel like grinding can give me the satisfaction I need at the moment.
uncle dane how do i play battle engineer?
The legend has shared with us his wisdom we must listen !
Variety is almost always a good thing. Back in the day we used server browsers to find games and picked the one with the lowest ping. This resulted in a brilliant, unpredictable experience. Being manipulated into nothing but ultra competitive matches is unpleasant.
Skill issue
@@stevebrule3526=no life
@@stevebrule3526 ironically. Not having sbmm will increase your skill because you are playing with players vastly worse and better than you are
@@shelly8563, or you leave the game, if difference in skill is too high
@@shelly8563Exactly. There is no improvement when everyone is holding a corner trying to maintain a 1.0 KD 😂
The worst part is when one guy in your friend group is significantly better than everyone else. The better friend can have a decent game, but everyone else gets rolled and has a bad time.
The alternative is your friend completely stomping the hell out of the other team.
@@jakeman52 That still happens. Often times your friend might be good enough to stomp and get kills but the enemies are good enough to stomp you so both teams are still having a bad experience
This here, my friend group just quit a couple years ago because of this
@@jakeman52 so? it's better to have one player dominate than to have 6 players dominate everyone but one person.
u decide if u have a bad time or not, regardless of your skill level.
I remember getting into TF2 as a kid and getting absolutely destroyed for weeks until I crept my way into being the pubstomper and it felt great, the “I wanna destroy the top fragger” feeling was a huge motivation tbh
This. When you are casually stomping then "that guy" shows up and suddenly you have a rival, it's just *chefs kiss*
i also enjoy that TF2 has a lot of different pools to s2im in per warowls metaphor.
you got casual, you got all the different flavors of community servers, you got mvm, even community mvm
and i think the game also profits from the higher per server playercount
Stomping those Skial servers just felt different man. I used to play sniper on 275 ping just to kill the enemy top fragging sniper in a duel xD
Tf2 is the greatest multiplayer shooter ever made change my mind.
Well in 2015-2016 Meet your Match killed TF2 for a while. And personally it was in fault by Tryhards and Competitive players forcing Valve to make a competitive mode.
As someone who's been playing CoD since I was a little kid, it hurts to play multiplayer now. I'll have a match where I destroy, and I feel like a good player, and then I get destroyed for 10 games in a row before getting a '"good" game again. It's an absolutely awful way to play. I can't even enjoy those '"good" matches, because I know exactly what's coming next. I hope there's a solution for this in the future but I won't hold my breath on it.
Get good
Same, my buddy and I stopped MW2 a few days after it came out because of this sensation. I had a match with him where I dropped a 30 kill match but he was still getting creamed. I realised that he would never have fun in games like this playing with me as I am probably in that reall small part of the skill curve right before you get into the really good players (like I'm above average, not great.)
It really ruins our time together because I want to just grab a game and go blow up some tanks in War Thunder with him or go run a lobby in COD like the old days but these games are now engineered maliciously to make sure you play as long as possible.
That's weird, I have the same match every match. I don't have those lucky good games despite being a skilled player.
@@Rexhunterj If your buddy sucks at the game he won’t do well in random matches either tho. Although I do think that the algorithm should match in between the skill level of the party
@@Grimdarkog some of us have hobbies that are irl perishable skills and dont want to do full on training to make a video game fun.
And as a call of duty fan, the thing that sucks is that we never get a good ranked system which makes everything way worse
I don't know much about this, are you saying the Competitive mode isn't that great? If so, a great way to fix the problem would be to make a good competitive mode so the sweaty tryhards go play that instead of farming noobs.
@@TheWarOwl they usually do have a competitive mode but it's not very good
@@TheWarOwl the competitive/ranked in cod games are notoriously under supported and are basically after thoughts. That’s a reason I stopped playing years ago
@@TheWarOwl Let's just say this. The last time CoD had a genuinely good competitive/ranked mode was Black Ops 2. It's been awful or nonexistent since then.
Don't worry about it, neither does CS:GO. I have 4k hours and in 80% of the cases I get matched against people with 2-300 hrs .
you've been on a roll lately. you make great arguments and i really like the csgo experiments too. if you told me in 2013 i would one day not miss a video from the "stop scope flick fire guy" i wouldn't believe you. i don't even play csgo anymore but you might be my favorite gaming youtuber overall at this point
Stop Scope Flick Fire still funny meme, I'll embrace any meme people make of me, gotta learn to laugh at yourself.
@@TheWarOwl I like that mentality that's why I like your videos
can anyone explain to he why "stop scope flick fire" is bad advice? if even is bad advise. i know it's something warowl said in of of his guide video, but never understood what's with the meme
@@pudimo cuz flick is not smth u do like that
@@pudimo it's mostly cause the stop, scope, and flick all happen simultaneously, it's only the fire that comes right after. It might be okay advice to a beginner but to anyone trying to get higher than silver it can be a bit misleading
How do i find the best vpn servers for mw3?
Documents have been leaked that SBMM is not used to deliver balanced matches but, ironically, unbalanced ones. They (EA and probably others) studied psychology and found that cycles of losses followed by a win creates an addictive loop that actually keeps players on longer. We can all feel when a match feels rigged against us, and now it's been documented that they are.
Ooh spooky. I hardly think this is going on in csgo but very likely this is in some games
@@NubeBuster this happens in apex legends
It was very obvious in Halo Infinite. One game you're on top of the scoreboard and your team is insane. The next game it feels like you just got matched against an actual pro team while everyone on your team are avid glue enjoyers.
@@TylerMcVeigh1 What's wrong with glue :-) Playing Halo or COD most probably on a controller is ground for enjoying glue.
Additionallly, when they prime you for a loss, they specifically match you up with an opponent that has some paid gear that might encourage you to impulse buy. That's why everyone's gear is clearly highlighted in games with micro transactions.
I think another issue with sbmm is more of team balancing than similarly skilled players being grouped. It’s generally not fun as both a high ranked player and lower ranked player to end up trying to average out the teams by pairing someone in the top 1% with five other newbies vs a team of generally skilled players, especially in teamwork-based games. It usually just devolves into “can my sweaty player carry us” rather than “can we work together to win”, which rarely happens, and usually results in a one-sided match.
You remind me of a round of smite (a MOBA) where there was this one guy that was much better than us but often didn't bother waiting for the team. I can't remember if we ended up winning but I definitely remember thinking he was great mechanically and the we could have won much sooner if he was more patient and tried to coordinate with the rest of the team better.
@@Al77343 smite lacks the population to support a ladder so it gets funky
Half of the comments here complain that the problem is SBMM is too tight and people won't ever improve because they never see anyone better than them, and the other half complains that it's too loose and the problem is when you're much better than the other people playing.
I gotta conclude that you're all just being silly and that it's actually fine.
@@hirotrum6810 when I used to play I'd generally wouldn't get terrible mismatches, I'd mostly play casual so that probably has something to do with it (along with me being a pretty average player)
Exactly.
Its also that game lobbies and servers are so atomized, used to be you would join a server and play with a community or join a lobby and play for hours, make friends with random but now its just you get one match and thats it.
I'm going to be honest, I've been falling off my own journey mentally for a while. Berating myself for not meeting my own demands, my own deadlines or what have you, on a daily basis. What you said towards the end about looking at how you treat yourself mentally really resonated with me. I don't know what pushed me into this path this time, but I just thought you should know you planted something helpful in my psyche tonight.
Get back into action, King, I'm rooting for you
Finish it. Don’t leave things halfway.
you got this
I'm glad my video resonated with you, just know that when I figure something out like that it's coming from a very personal place. Right now I'm trying to re-imagine my TH-cam channel and branch out into new content (just quit streaming on Twitch after 9 years of it), and I'm really stressed out about the Ls I'm taking lately with the algorithm and numbers. I'm trying to remember that this is just part of the process, and that I should focus on the work instead of judging myself... so yeah my words at the end came from something I'm dealing with too.
find you're own path that make you happy, have dreams and visions.... otherwise you will lose you're magic.
eat good sleep well look after yourself physically and mentally.
You got it bro.....
My main problem with SBMM is that is forced into casual games even when that game already has a ranked mode which makes you feel like you can never just relax and enjoy the game and instead have to sweat every game for no reward of a rank up or anything like that
That's exactly what I'm saying
@DiglettUser bruh this man did not just say casual skill lvl 💀
I am generally quite a bad player of dota 2, and lately due to my age showing, my reaction times and decisionmaking has severely diminished over time,
AND YET... im an advocate for sbmm, because otherwise, id just get matched up against players who are just TOO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD, resulting in stomps. Sbmm at least alleviates some of that even in the casual turbo mode.
@@Puppetmaster2005 sbmm is good for competitive games like dota and should stay. Cod is a casual game. No need for sbmm to be tuned this high. Every single game is different and sbmm should be tuned appropriately to that specific game.
So by 'relax and enjoy the game' you dont mean stomp players much worse than you?
Casual lobbies and Ranked Lobbies.
Casual lobbies don’t count towards one’s K/D or other stats, whereas Ranked does.
Casual doesn’t have SBMM; Ranked does.
*Casual yields half the XP to encourage people to play Ranked.
Ranked has visible brackets.
-Rewards for higher tiers
-tourney invites for top tier
-Cash reward for a tourney
-Make players want to push for higher tiers.
Problems solved.
It’s so easy a cave a man could do it.
The biggest problem with SBMM is that you never FEEL like you're getting better. The only real feedback you get for actually improving at the game, is seeing your "rank" go up. In the olden days you knew you were getting better because you weren't getting stomped. You started moving up the leaderboards. You could help your team more. These days; the SBMM algo literally optimizes for you having a 50/50 win/loss ratio -- so even if you do get DRASTICALLY better at the game, you'll still be winning and losing 50% of your matches. You won't feel that improvement, your games stay the same difficulty the entire time.
Yeah COD’s match making is horrendous because it goes beyond just put you against equally skilled players. It’s always trying to keep you in a equally 50/50 so even when you do win a match it’s totally unrewarding because you just assume the MM decided it was your time to get one. You never truly earn the win, or anything for that matter, it’s just given too you.
The thing is sbmm is there for people who want to know exactly how good they are... And they want to keep getting better or have some sort of acknowledgment for their ability in a game..
If you want so play for fun.. you can anytime.. queue for casual lobbies in most game.. unfortunately few games still use your hidden mmr to match you in casual games as well which maybe should be removed but I don't really think it matters that much.. because I don't think the lack of enjoyment comes from going easy.. it mainly stems from being forced to play every game seriously coz of the ranks of other players being also dependent.. so in casual modes you can play however the fuck you want without being screamed at..
But the problem with people who hate sbmm is that they don't want to play casual mode i dont even know why.. if you really just wanna have fun then go play unranked games.. i do this all the time..
At this point i don't even get what the fuss is about..
I think the feeling improvement part can ezly be solved by making sure that the unrated game modes have very broad skill levels for matchmaking or none but i think no sbmm will ruin the barrier for entry for new players so there should stay some little amount of protection for them.
@@d4nkdesu How about just Stop putting your fingers in the pie? I know it's hard to believe and it's really hard for people to cope with the fact that they need to leave things alone, but it's easy; just don't use an algorithm. The issue is that this solution is counterproductive to the company's goal on having a larger player base. Here we explore the concept of quality over quantity. In a normal game with no algorithm, individuals who cannot overcome the learning curve and become good at a game tend find different games that they win more in. Unfortunately, the company's statistics show that algorithms are the optimal strategy to get the highest player base and the most Revenue out of them. So no, it's not just ranked matches that have SBMM it's every single game mode lol. It's delusional to think that they would even tell the truth when the ROI is much higher when they manipulate games.
That's exactly how I feel about Apex, very fun gaming experience.
@@d4nkdesu You completely missed the point of the video. The problem is having SBMM in CASUAL game modes, not a ranked game mode. A ranked game mode wouldn't be ranked without SBMM lol. "Few games still use your hidden mmr to match you in casual games," Few?? Nearly every popular new release is using a hidden rating system in casual, that's why so many people are up in arms about it.
If you take out SBMM, you eliminate smurfing entirely. You can't get on a low level account and stomp. You have to hope the Game God gives you a bunch of noobs randomly. You throw a random set of people into a lobby, then split the teams off based off the stats. Even if a .01% player gets in with noobs, they'll most likely be on his team to balance it out. And I don't understand the point of SBMM in public lobbies when there is RANKED. That is literally what Ranked and Comp modes were made for. Climb and play amongst people your own level. Then go to pubs where it's nonexistent and you can have real fun and not sweat. Now how would that kill a player base?
It’s simple. SBMM ruins casual gaming. You play casually , ideally get better and therefore get better results. SBMM works to directly counter that. If operated optimally you can never improve your results as you will always be paired with players of identical skill lvl as when you started. Only good reason for SBMM is protecting new players
The thing I hate about SBMM is that I can't play with my friends. I'm a 3+ KD player in COD and my friends are all 0.8-1.4 KD players. They go from playing alone and getting 20 kills a match to playing with me and getting 3 kills. I don't blame them for not wanting to play in those lobbies, but it really sucks to be unable to play together and have no rank or anything to show for it.
touch grass. play less.
@@treeskers I work 60 hours a week as a medical lab scientist. I'm a full time student on top of that. I play games a few times a week. I'm just naturally great at almost all games. Nice try though!
Same issue in OW2, even in Quickplay there's SBMM.
When I play with my buddies who are either new to the game or just not that good, I can stomp the enemies in every single game but the homies are struggling because my hidden rank boosts the enemy team's rank and makes the games too hard and quite often unenjoyable for them.
Very annoying.
@@santasbrother3590 Ya I've had the same issue with Overwatch 2. Played one game where I was at 21,000 damage and my friend as the other DPS was struggling at 5k 😫
@@santasbrother3590 yep. im pretty good at overwatch compared to most of my friends and thus have fun whenever we play together, usually win every game as long as im playing tank, but then we queue with our god gamer friend and even though i can keep up the rest of my friends are having a terrible time. i get that sbmm is kind of required in a game like overwatch, even on qp, but i wish there was some sort of system to account for varied groups
I remember playing the OG MW2 and getting wrecked going 2-20. Did that make me quit? No, I just got better with time and COD remained my #1 FPS for years. Until MW2019/WZ changed everything about COD MP and turned it into a miserable manipulative experience. I still haven't picked up MWii as of writing and have no urge to, despite all the hype and praise...probably the honeymoon phase talking again.
War owl i know you consider yourself mainly a csgo youtuber but these deep dives and gaming journalism type vids are really entertaining and well made! You should definitely make some more of these
I agree with that other comment, i dont even play csgo anymore but i still come back for more
Comment about the game next time.
very true
This is a pretty good summary of what I've experienced with the Cod launch, wanting to play with friends and chill but my SBMM is so much higher than theirs that they don't even want to play with me anymore. I like the solution of expanding the SBMM, but I also think adding a competitive mode can help weed out the "tryhards" to modes where people are actually wanting something more challenging instead of forcing my friends to play with people way above their skill level and ruining their experience.
THIS. Pros dont play casual matches anyway when a good Ranked mode exists. But CoD doesnt have a strong competitive scene. Like I know the pro-scene exists, but it does not have the same appeal to CoD players as say the LoL or CSGO pro scene have to their player base. A really really good CoD player will still prefer to pub-stomb instead of playing in a mode that would tell him he's Diamond II but leaves him with a 0.88 KD. The culture itself kind of has to change. I hate it lol
Problem with creating a competitive mode is the casual queues die because people see it as a waste of time to play matches that don’t reward them with skill points 😂
So this doesnt really work, apex has both casual and ranked but the casual aspect is just as sweaty as ranked only difference is you dont get a show rating in casual, thats it the only difference between the two game modes you have to completely change how sbmm works fundamentally or abolish it altogether, you cant take half measures where full measures are needed. Also saying "tryhards wont play casual" just isnt true there will always be tryhards who are to bad to climb in a ranked setting but tryhard enough to sweat in casuals so they can in some way call themselves good.
@@brendondavid7349 nah not in CoD, its usually the opposite. they don't make ranked play in CoD that often because people don't play it, they just play casual.
@@brendondavid7349 it's only regarded as a waste of time because SBMM exists in casual playlists. Why try hard in casual playlists where you do not get any rewards like "magic number go up or down" for playing well? Just play ranked, and then you can get that.
The dichotomy should be this: try hard in ranked where the meta matters, and you'll be tested by other, equally talented players. Then, if you're looking to mess around and have fun, or hell to test out a new build that you wanna use for ranked, go to a casual playlist where things like "meta weapons/ perks" do not matter as much.
A CS TH-camr talking about a COD Streamer’s points while mentioning Overwatch 2 with a TF2 TH-camr as the top comment.
Truly a _gaming_ video.
dude, that closing statement.. I needed that. I struggle with enjoying matchmaking exactly because I judge myself all the time. hearing you say it don't matter, it's just a tool. that really took a burden off of my shoulders.
When the "skill based matchmaking" is no longer based on skill, it can be a pain
Yeah why is it even called SBMM still when your “skill” is only used to match you with players either so much higher that your weapon choice is only cosmetic, or so much lower that racking up kills isn’t even satisfying? Its real name in newer games is EOMM now.
Just read about activisions sbmm patent, they literally change game mechanics to make you win or lose.
@@onemorescout EOMM is quite infamous with fifa community when the AI just cheats and goes dumb.
Love the StarCraft 2 music in the background when talking about OW2
The solution is to do what TF2 does. Instead of putting together a lobby where everyone is the same rating, it puts together teams with similar average ratings. That way the overall match is balanced allowing new players to still be winning games, while also allowing individually skilled players to experience their skill compared to players of all skill levels. I thinks it’s a big reason so many people talk about how rewarding it is to improve at TF2. Every match is a display of different skill levels that allow you to experience how far you have come.
Any video game problem can look at tf2 for inspiration on how to solve that issue. it just works
honestly tf2 kinda doesnt work in that sense, but it's still somehow better than those systems
I mean thats just how it worked back when you only had community servers. You just hop on a server thats the closest to what you want to play right now, and the players naturally follow a normal distribution. Sure sometimes its unbalanced but thats what the good old scramble teams was for.
You have to keep in mind that TF2 is a 12v12 game. COD and most other shooters are either 5v5 or 6v6, which makes this approach much harder to implement
it should be simpler to grab 10 players & stick them in teams with ~ the same average rating than to grab 10 players who have ~ the same rating, no?
Getting dumped on by your friends is so different than getting dumped on by strangers.
People should get encouraged too play in smaller communities in MW2 to get around SBM.
I'll say this the story you told about being a competitive gamer who still wants to get good after getting crushed by the better players being a healthy mindset just got yourself as subscriber buddy
Good points. I do wonder how many COD people want non-SBMM for the smurfing aspect rather than the "I can play with non meta guns" aspect though. I suspect there's plenty of people who want to use the meta guns to take over lobbies assuming there's no SBMM. Especially since COD culture is so built upon huge killstreaks and "fragging the noobs". Definitely agree with the take that casual modes in games could do with a wider variance in MMR.
COD culture is built around unlocking gun camos. Which requires you to use crappy guns and complete stupid challenges. If you are a CS guy try this. Try to kill 100 enemies by shooting them in the foot with the pistol while playing ranked CS. And then when you inevitably want to kill yourself because trying to complete challenges that require you to handicap yourself when everyone is the same skill as you is impossible, you will understand.
Everyone wants to use off meta weapons because in order to unlock the best camos you have to complete every challenge with every weapon. That is what COD games have been about, they were basically chatrooms where people grinded out challenges for gun skins. The only time you bothered putting on your meta loadout and actually trying hard was if someone on the other team was talking trash. COD has never been about fragging the noobs and getting huge killstreaks. Thats why the term "tryhard" is an insult in the COD community. Because playing like that was generally frowned upon.
OW2 for example, Unranked is just a clusterfuck. I'm a new player (had ow1, didnt play it a lot). The games are so random all the time.
One game you'll get the absolute newbie playing soldier76, he gets rekt, less than 1000 dmg at the end of the match.
Then, you also get the god Genji who does the triple shuriken headshot dash blowjob melee combo and just deletes you from existence.
The games are almost always a stomp with very few games feeling like they're balanced.
Competitive is just competitive and honestly, it's fun.
But whatever you do do NOT play open queue, worst mistake of my life. 4 tanks and youll understand why role queue is a thing.
In drop zone sbmm seems to be off, I usually can have fun and ay with a knife and drop 25 kills
Another problem with SBMM is that it has no way whatsoever to compensate for consistency. On my best days, I play far, far better than on my worst days, and I'm not at all consistent here. Skill based matchmaking actively works against me here. This also means I can only ever choose to play one way on an account- casually, or competitively. Once you're set in a skill bracket, you're stuck with what you picked first, unless you're willing to suffer through ten to twenty matches that are not balanced to that. The biggest problem here is what ranked matchmaking actually achieves: it pushes players to play the game competitively at all times, which is a horribly unhealthy mindset.
Now, the obvious solution here is to let players turn off SBMM. There's no follow-up: this is just a solution.
This reminds me of those big 16v16 Dust 2 24/7 servers on 1.6. All the noobs would rush in and die first and the higher skilled players would clean up and duke it out in the final moments of the round. The server would auto balance teams to make it even. I don't think SBMM is required for casual mode, but maybe since COD doesn't have a round based system, then it doesn't apply (aside from S&D, but doesn't last as long as a cs match)
thing is, CoD is playing to have a competitive game mode, which makes this feel even worse.
SBMM drove me from all the online games I played.
Like I don't mind the whole "you will only face other players of similar skill" thing where you rank up.
What I do mind is things like balancing teams based on skill where the better you get the worse your teammates get to compensate.
Yeah this is definitely a problem for overwatch 2, so I deleted it. Gonna do the same to MW2 soon cos it just bores me, even when I do good I can’t enjoy it
Play ffa
play planetside, where there is no matchmaking at all. everyone is on the same map and among the 20-200 (depends on how many show up) players in the fight can be of any rank.
@@HappyBeezerStudios think I used to play that and forgot the name - was actually wondering what it was called recently 😆 thanks for that
this is a huge problem in fortnite, I literally get players with a 1.0 K/D while i try to fight full sweat squads who are all in discord together.
I purposely don’t go for objectives in cod games because I know I will just get punished for winning. I have seriously considered reverse boosting just to have fun in a game I play completely casually…
Usually when I hear this come up, all I hear is "I just want to play against worse players to stroke my ego", but it occurred to me that most of my matchmaking happens in fighting games, where I don't have to worry about teammates flaming me for missing a punish, which I could definitely see as a bad part of SBMM
Yup and fighting games are only one game. COD is 15+ different games in one package.
Well that is a part of it, but also the fact that many people miss the feeling of hopping on cod to just run around and shoot other players without having to concentrate. When every lobby turns into a league play match it negates the reason many people play cod: to have a casual shooter to just run around in.
I never got the whole “I only wanna go against worse players than me” because there’s a higher chance of getting insanely cracked players on the other team with no sbmm. One thing I really missed about bo2 was how varied the lobbies were. I could sit back and relax and play pistols only a mess around and the next match it balls to the wall. Made it so fun
The problem is it's not proportionate. If you're the best player you should win the vast majority of your games. If you're the worst player you should lose a vast majority.
WarOwl, the problem with SMBB is broader: same system can be applied not only to balance people based on their mesaured skill but also, for example, on their latest ingame purchases to create an "easy match-up scenarios" for someone who purchased skins recently to create "positive reinforcement" (i bought smth -> feels good to own with my newly bought skin) and to control "randomness" of random elements in someones favor (handicaping newcommers/payers/returning players to keep retention higher). Activision has patents for all there systems, sadly.
Perfect explanation. I’ve played Call of duty for 14 years. Bought and played every game since. I should and am better than the majority of players. I shouldn’t be penalised for this with awful connection lobbies. I should be matched with any player regardless of skill but based solely on ping so I can have the best possible experience. So what if I’m better than majority of players 14 years ago playing MW2 2009 at 8 years old I had a 0.6 kd. I had good games but mostly bad games. And I learnt by better players to be better. You wouldn’t have that if I also matched with 0.6KD player every game. Also means I can’t really play with friends without them struggling in my lobbies and not having fun. It’s a joke. Ranked it there for this reason. Public lobbies should be ping based only. it’s a shame
thank you so much for making this video man. I've been playing COD for the last ten years, and it's great to see someone with an outside perspective like you understand why above average cod players hate SBMM so much.
I am a below average COD player and I hate SBMM. You don't have to be good at the game to enjoy things like less lag, persistent lobbies, and a sense of progression.
Plus if the only reason I am doing well is because the game is giving me easier opponents... that destroys any sense of accomplishment, and frankly feels a little insulting.
Yup. I played with my two best friends last year and they were new at the game. I stomped out the first few easy sbmm tilted lobbies and so it gradually raised our level and they were unable to compete because it was filling the game with players on my level as compensation. Sucks to not be able to play with friends unless you're as good as one another.
Also MM systems that discriminate against ping, I've had games where I couldn't even MM into other servers with my USA friends even though the ping is only 180-200ms which is perfectly fine for non-competitive games.
@@Rexhunterj 200 ms is borderline unplayable in most games, what are you on about?
But that's where it gets hard. People will just abuse that friend system to get some W's for their fragile egos. I used to wanna be better cause duh, but now it's exhausting.
@@Rexhunterj 200ms is horrible
I've found two approaches to playing with friends:
1) You play your best and try to carry, you will win a lot early and then game will become too hard for your friends and you end up unable to carry because enemies are good. Also your friends most likely end up feeling useless because they will have very low impact.
2) You still play your best but on more passive positions and try help your friends learn the game, by suggesting them good positions and how to play them. So that the win condition is more dependent on your friends, instead of you. That way you most likely won't win that much early but overtime it will help your friends to gradually get better and everyone ends up having a more enjoyable time overall. This approach also has a big plus that your friends won't feel like they are useless in the matches you play together.
The first day I played valorant I went up against a lvl 60 something account and a mix from 30-45 my teams overall level averaged to about 7. We didn’t stand a chance
One of the biggest flaws in SBMM systems is that it inherently fragments the playerbase to a high degree. Of course that varies depending on how lenient the matchmaking system is when matching with ratings, but overall the playerbase is much smaller. You can play a game that has 20k players online globally, but only a couple hundred (or even a few dozen) of players playing in your rating. There are even less players that are actually ready to be placed in matches with you at the same time as a lot are probably already in matches which you can't be matched against. This leads to playing in game lobbies with the same people, playing in lobbies that aren't full of players, and/or playing in lobbies that took 10+ minutes to find a match even.
Everyone's defense to SBMM is "what about the new players?", and that is a problem that can easily be solved outside of SBMM. Even if you don't cater towards them with special rules or modes, the amount of new players compared to the total amount of players is very small (hence the distribution graph). Eventually these players will move up into the "averages", but the people at the top will just keep going up as well. I think it should be fine that you have a 2% chance of playing an insane player in your match considering the most players are going to be the average players. Needing to "protect" people from really good players is just a dumb thing to have in every game mode. That is why games have ranked modes that are separate from the normal modes.
Overall, I do agree with Tim that SBMM is doing more harm than good in games that A) don't need it, or B) in modes that aren't competitively ranked. Having it in games just to protect a small minority of people (the noobs) from another small minority of people (the sweats) is just insane considering you are potentially ruining the game for the literal majority of players.
low skill players are the majority of players
Have you really ever waited 10 minutes for a match to load in MW2?
@@bernardeugeniomajority of players are average skill level meaning they know how to play the game and those people who are slightly above average don’t have the most fun in the game even tho they are a part of the majority, the people who have the most fun are the noobs (low skilled players, and those who are slightly below average everyone else is not having the best time cause they always play people who are their level or above not below, slightly below average play against the same level or below which makes it more fun. The average player is not having a great time (I am an average player on Fortnite and slightly above average on cod) and when I play pubs It feels like I am playing ranked every game, which I don’t find enjoyable
Literally, every match feels like ranked, in the sense of "If I goof around and try to have fun I go negative," to bring the conclusion even further, Fortnite ranked is literally less competitive than PUB until you get in the top tier which obviously is MEANT to be sweaty...@@lHeatedl
@@lHeatedl yeah, that's how it is with phantom forces on roblox, it kinda just feels like you can't play the game at an average skill level because everyone else fucking steamrolls you. I know the "get good" idea is kinda relevant, but at a point the games are not catering to the average players that want to get good, and ultimately kinda kills games. that's the SBMM that I'd like, the part that you can CHOOSE to play or not, where you could actually play with other players that won't steamroll you, but also don't suck dick at the game.
Another problem is that not everyone plays to their own skill level all the time. Some people might have a day when they are absolutely destroying everyone and hitting every shot then the next day you can't even get one kill.
100% this is one of the biggest problems in my opinion, by doing really well every once in a while you're punishing your future self
That’s called sbmm. Back in the day it was kill or get wrecked. Never knew what the lobbies were gonna be like. Now adays I know it’s gonna be shroud on the other team every time I play. I’m done playing mw2. I’m level 183 with 50 guns platinum, I’m bored to death, it’s not fun, I was grinding but I can’t do it anymore. I’m a casual player. I don’t want to feel like I’m playing like there’s 100k on the line every fucking time I play.
If you have a good day, go play some competitive playlist. If not, go to the casual game mode.
If you started to sweat in the casual playlist, you're no longer playing casually and the game will balance you out.
@@RevCosmin When I wrote this comment there wasn't a competitive playlist available only casual matches. Secondly it's irrelevant as having more than one skill based matchmaking system in the same game is just stupid and pointless.
@@situatedillnessmaybe get better?
I remember having kids stay in the lobby to. Try and counter me and beat me or them just rage quitting. Miss those times.
I love the comparison between games and waterparks, as of lately I've not enjoyed many online games cause as you said their removing the "water slide" and "kiddie pool" from newer titles and only making a "lap pool". I think game devs really need a way so everyone can be a part of the game not just the sweats. After all a waterpark without a slide or kiddie pool really isn't much of a waterpark.
100%
the problem is that the people that put more hours and money in the game are tryhards, so devs are targeting a very small niche of people that can invest a ton of money to get skins and all of that, that same people play for more than 2 hrs a day all the week, bcs is more easy to trust that kind of people that trust casuals that maybe just buy the main game and thats it, the business model changed when microtransactions boomed, so unless a new group of devs think a different and even better way to balance and earn money, this is base line
@@therokku7393 Well it's ultimately up to the actual company. I forget where I heard this, but it goes something like this "When the marketing team starts to outweigh the engineering team that's where a company starts to decline." I believe that this is an issue with managers and execs are wanting to push with what their marketing department is developing on. Ever since AAA games have become more corporate it has become much much less consumer friendly. For reference look at the indie market and some double A games right now, for the way that consumers are treated.
Kiddie pools are full of piss
@@p4nnus Then stop peeing in them my guy, I thought you should've known this lol
"git gud" is it terrible response to skill-based matchmaking because until you become literally the best in the world the SBMM will just continue to raise no matter how good you get and you'll be in the same situation
yup, and there is no way to get better if you keep dying before you even know what is happening. Which is why even matches are the best to improve. Against opponents that are just slightly better than you, so that you have to do your best, but have a chance.
Just git best
So you want to stay bad? Makes sense.
@@ELGUAPOIV I want to have fun, with a side of competition. When competition is the only mode of existence fun isnt available. Turns out this is a hobby not a job. If I was getting paid for this I wouldnt complain as much lmao
Thats not true. Even in the video showing, if you are better than average, the most player you will be playing against and with are gonna be worse than you. Its just shifting the radius of players you can be queued. As a better than average Player, you have always more player behind your Rank as infront of you nearby. So, as a good player you can be constantly winning and have a good time, because you also doenst get boosted straight in your skill rank after a good game or even series. You have to be good for a long period, to be rank up in the skill rank.
Anyone born after 99 is what's ruining gaming. These kids have no interest in the experience or beauty of games. They only want to consume and move to the next game. It's only about the flex for them it will never be about the game.
When Titanfall 2 was on its last legs before the NS client I used to get into lobbies with some of the highest ranked players in the world who had been there since day one simply through casual que and just play the game. The game did not have SBMM and it has spawned some of the best memories I have ever had in gaming, any time I managed to kill one of them it felt like a genuine accomplishment and I felt that I was getting better at the game as a result.
Keeping people at a 50% win rate just stifles their drive to improve at anything as no matter how much they improve there will always be someone better than them and they never feel as though they are improving.
I'm not a fan of ranked modes, but at least the little medals and titles give you something to fight for, SBMM has just turned casual into a second ranked playlist that you cant see people's ranks in, a mode that instead of rewarding you with a higher spot on the scoreboard through mechanical and strategic development just psychologically beats you over the head with a feeling of unworthiness as you cannot even defeat people who are supposed to be at the same skill level as you.
In a lobby that is completely random sure you may run into pros but you can easily shake a loss from this as just bad luck, but if you are told that these people are just as good as you and you can't beat them the game goes from a form of escapism to an addictive method of psychologically torturing yourself.
The problems with SBMM are worsened exponentially in a team game like CS or Overwatch as your success rests just as much on your team as it does on you even though this often does not feel the case when playing, leading to a multiplicative effect on how badly you feel after a loss.
i feel this. i remember playing tribes a few years ago on the last server left with maybe 5-10 people on, all excellent players and every kill i got would feel 10x better than a kill in a sbmm game like cod or apex
We would win 3 out of 4 games all the time in halo 3 ranked. You would constantly see level 47+ players get waffle stomped by equal ranked opponents. Playing top tier players at all times is strenuous. I can’t imagine implementing that method in casual
@@SavingSoulsMinistries The top their payers thing was more of an anecdote about how resigning myself to failure initially then lead to a much more enjoyable experience once I gave up the notion that winning mattered.
However SBMM prevents this from happening in any game it is implemented as you always feel that you have a chance at victory which gives it some meaning only to be let down when you inevitably lose any match you don't sweat your balls off, and when you do sweat your balls off and win/get a good K/D the next game you get put into a higher bracket without your knowledge or consent and then immediately curbstomped.
That's the problem with CoD, us that it's trying to be with the big boys of Esports but the game requires little skill to do well and degenerative strategies form (brecchi, claymores, camping, etc).
Rocket jumping in TF2 may take you a few days or weeks to understand and months and years to master. Slide canceling in the last 3 CoDs will take you about a few hours to understand and can be mastered in a day or less.
Casuals are hating CoD for being too sweaty and stressful while ACTUAL competitive players from other FPS games find CoD to be disappointing and boring as there is nothing to hone and get good at. Sure sniping requires good aim but it's not original or unique to CoD, and you can argue that snipers in other games require more skill than CoD.
SBMM is 100% ruining gaming and it’s not even debatable.
The hard truth is, I just don't have time to get super good at games anymore. That's why I've basically stopped playing competitive multiplayer games. You're either the guy getting pubstomped or the guy doing the pubstomping. There doesn't seem to be much in between. Battlefield used to be a game where you could contribute greatly to your team's success and have a great time without having to be an amazing FPS player, but that franchise is basically dead after Battlefield 2042.
I tried siege for this reason. I only did support roles basically.
Droned in my teammates or was on cams to call enemy locations out. Or was making plans and IGLing.
Roles that could greatly increase success - which they did :D
Honestly, it's the only reason I had fun in the game
TH-cam notifs tell me you replied to me, but I can't see your comment. Regarding monster hunter which honestly never occurred to me. On the outside looking in it always seemed like a game to "grind out". Most RPG-like games tend to be. Either you grind it out to stand a chance or you will always be super weak / miss out on seasonal stuff that's just flat out better then everything else.
But after the way you described it, I'll have to give it a try 😂
The thing I hate about this sbmm conversation is that everyone has different conflicting reasons for why they don’t like sbmm. Your reason is that sbmm makes you care about skill too much but other people say they don’t get to see their skill enough. On top of that the takes I see get most upvoted are in reference to how sbmm makes you play against “sweats” every time and therefore you can’t have fun which I feel is just a completely nonsensical take since you could just try to have fun until your rank equalizes out. The whole discussion is so pointless and confusing.
Thing is, SBMM is fair and square, especially for low skilled players. People crave for casual but don't look for these less skill players.
My own problem is that SBMM takes your time to match with people that is the same as you, and that CAN TAKE A LONG TIME. I just want to hop on a game quick.
Another is that, while SBMM matches you with people in your level, they tend to not put you in the sane connection lobby. So instead you're getting stomped because the other guy (which the skill is equal to you) just has a better connection to the match.
Skill is not the problem in SBMM, it's the time and connection aspect.
Haven't enjoyed online games since like 2010 for this reason tbh. I just wanna chill and goof around. Not play against tryhards 24/7 who never touch grass.
i think something you couldve touched on was the impact of always playing competitively and how it bleeds over into other gamemodes and whatnot. i only play csgo in community servers and when scrimmage first came out i was pretty eager to try it but every single time i played it it was more intense than actual competitive. and even in the community servers it feels every week it just gets more and more serious to the point that the regular competitive gamemode is a more laidback time. the experience i have had with multiplayer games has had fun steadily drained out and replaced with sweat and tears. whats the point of even playing a game on specifically the unranked and casual servers if it will be the exact same on competitive servers? whats the point of playing your hardest and trying to win as much as you can if its in a completely meaningless gamemode when you can queue for a match and atleast try to get a rankup or at the very least play against people that are also playing the same way? when someone has doxed me so far two times in a csgo community server because instead of staring at a corner for a minute and then executing a site i ran through 2 mollies and running hs them right before i die i think maybe its beginning to be too far gone.
I think this is why battlefield bc2, 3 and 4 were my jam. Find a server, play with super elites and major noobs all in one server. Now it’s like you join an instance and are matched with people exactly at your skills level, and it doesn’t feel organic.
thats how it is now still, take warzone for example. you get high level youtubers spectating other people in their games (after crying SBMM makes everyone in their game a pro), and these people cant even climb ladders or have the most garbage loadouts and strategies. SBMM is just a way for people now to cry they cant stomp noobs in cod
I used to play on the Objective Pushers hard-core server on BF4.
I got dogwalked for awhile. Then I got good and learned certain players' play styles and dominated.
I play for Ws, not KDRs.
These skill whores are pathetic.
SBMM will allways hurt CASUAL games. Why the hell do you want skill based gameplay in casual mods? It makes no sense playerwise.
The best solution for casual gameplay are servers. So you can pick the skill level you want. Playing against better players? Nice. You can learn from them. Playing against terrible players? Nice. They can learn from you. And at everytime you and they can leave and search a new server.
Players can organize themself if you let them. It worked for ages and is by far the better solution.
Battlefield 2, not bad company, I will always have fond memories of playing for hours, even as commander.
Dude I feel like a monster TBH now that look back on my BF3-4 days. Dude when that Atack chopper wins the air duel with the other chopper its over for people on the ground. Sure you get some try-hards that try to kill you but when you have an amazing chopper team it's over. I'm a mass murderer...
Casual is too hard. I need SBMM to work correctly, and I've never found a game where it did. I seem to ALWAYS get put against people with perfect aim and instant reaction times. That isn't me and I will only ever get slower as I age. It's really frustrating.
2 videos in less than a month ? Is this Christmas already?
3 days between
The other problem with SBMM on cod specifically is that it doesn’t actually work how people think it does. A lot of people complain about it being over reactive to you skill level, where you’ll have 1 good game and then get stomped, but really that’s intended. The game throws you in easy lobbies intentionally every once in a while so that you can have some fun, but then it forces you to give other players their fun by putting you in a match with people whom you have no hope of competing with.
which basically means their whole system is a joke.
Idk man people upset that sbm makes them get dumpstered by better players, but want to go against bad players so they can dumpster others.
I think its the sense of progress that is completely missing in sbmm, its not the wanting to dumpster players, its the fact that you could load up into your first cod game and have the exact same kd as you get in your 1000th game.
Highest quality content as usual from you. I just talked about this with my Overwatch friend group when OW2 released. I have not enjoyed competitive OW for a long while now. But I simply changed my attitude by playing competitive as I do quickplay. I just simply play the heroes I want, and switch to heroes I want to counter the other team. And I dont let pressure or my teammates get to myself. I havent seen any change in rank or anything. Just that I have enjoyed competitive more than ever.
Mazda miata.
@@ilikechineseteaespeciallyj7262 *pops up headlights*
@@johannesberglund2070 💖
the people against SBMM don't realize we don't WANT to play with them. They do, but we don't. Play with your own sweatlords.
FR. I don't want to get DEMOLISHED by 195000000000 level aim god
They'll never understand that nobody cares if they are "gud"
erm.. that seems like a skill issue bud.
@@GamesGab-k4d who cares? only skill you need to be worried about is finding a wife and a good job.
@@WybremGaming ZING!
Cod is supposed to be the most casual shooter yet it had some of the most strict matchmaking I’ve ever felt. Especially in mw2 it’s so bad that when I do good I don’t feel anything positive. I know the game just gave me that lobby because they think it’ll make me more addicted but it actively pushed me away and I know it’s like that for most people
I think the stronger opinions against SBMM from seasoned CoD players stem from experiences in the past games as well. MW2019 and to a lesser extent 2020s Black Ops CW (and I can't speak for Vanguard since I didn't play it) had this type of issue, where the skill rating would jump incredible amounts from a single match. You could go up in rating very quickly but coming back down wasn't as fast. If you played a particularly good game, you would be catapulted to games where you had no business being in. To illustrate this I can use CSGO ranks for this. Average player around MG1 would play an exceptional game and immediately be placed around LEM rank players for around 2-5 games, getting their face sufficiently smashed in, before getting lowered back down to where they started at around GNM to MG2. The system in these games seemed to have a very limited scope of games where it took your average skill form, so huge changes from one game like explained previously would have a profound effect on this invisible ranking. When I played, I had to actively keep this in mind and limit myself from doing too well in a game, just to have a good time in my skill group.
There's definitely some interesting takes on skill based matchmaking.
Slippi's matchmaking system for Melee makes it so only beginner players have SBMM, they'll all get to play each other and as they get better the system gets significantly more lenient.
Obviously the cultural difference of playing to improve rather than stomp is a major factor, but it's still an interesting system to consider.
Hold up a minute. You're telling me I can playing Smash Bros. Melee online?
I need to look into this. I'll probably just get dumpstered by players who know how to wavedash and L-cancel, but it sounds cool (assuming Nintendo doesn't Thanos snap it like they always do with cool fan projects).
@@qu1253 Yeah you can, and it's actually pretty easy to do. It also has better rollback netcode than the vast majority of fighting games. It helped bring lots of newer people into the game a couple years ago, some of which are already very good, so don't be too intimidated!
But SBMM is not problem at high ranking. Worst part of SBMM is above average players downranking purposefully to take a hot steaming dump on lemmings while on their little ego trip. How could anyone seriously complain about SBMM at the upper end - I'm living the dream in top25%, I wish every game with matchmaking had SBMM so my games are only populated with like-minded players...
Fuck, when I was still playing War Thunder half a decade ago I would willingly to pay monthly subscription to not get matches that were one-sided stomping grounds... It's not fun on either end of the spectrum.
@@qu1253 yup! Slippi/dolphin has great netcode too :) I highly recommend it. It also saves all replays of your games. I just plugin a GameCube controller and go.
You should make a video about sbmmoff everyone is using it now.
It's really impressive how you explained everything in a single video. I really value the effort you put forth in explaining
Haven’t seen your videos in a long time but glad to have returned and see TWH is still a voice of reason, respectful, and a great voice in the dialogue of gaming. Big props.
Strange, same with me, youtube decided I NEEDED to see this. And it was right, felt this way for a long time.
This was explained so well. I knew these things but the graph really put it into perspective.There are less Tim's than lower skilled players. It makes sense to cater to the earlier end to the middle of the pack players.
@Guy Whose opinions will offend youIndeed, I am at a point also in my life where I would probably benefit from sbmm cause my skills aren’t what they used to be. I know it doesn’t matter that much, I just found it interesting because my adolescent self would not have appreciated this break down as much as I do now. I also can see where these companies are coming from because again, it is a business.
Higher skilled players, I would think, would be less likely to engage with the store.
If you have the skill to level up quick, to unlock characters, to grind "cool" camos, to level up characters/weapons... why spend money on anything?
It makes sense to me, that the lower end of the skill curve would be the ones buying x2 XP, DLC camos, DLC weapons, etc
Your mention on sports is what I have said for a very long time. Many players of a competitive game have never played sports in their lives and never learned how to function inside that competitive arena. In physical sports you know real fast if someone else is just better than you. You cant blame your teammates for everything. Of course it can still happen to a degree but far less than competitive gaming. A coach and teammates will force you to see your pitfalls and study game film to get better.
Also, if you pop off to a teammate while playing sports, the consequences can be felt instantly: you can get smack'ed, lose friends, get a tell off by your coach, get benched, etc etc.
I think irl sport teach a lot to a person when later playing team based videogames.
I'm so happy I grew up a competitive gamer watching professional gaming events. Like I know when to actually blame a team mate for losing (respectfully) and when I'm just a cheap bad player that moment.
My issue is that every match feels so similar and the fact that I can’t really play with my group as the skill range varies from relatively low to on the pretty high end of normal
"They have a point" -> They want to smack little kids. And dont matchup with players of equal level of playtime/skill at the game. They just want to stomp Andy, 8
I personally don't care too much about SBMM, but I see why it's a bad thing. Once you've reached a certain skill group you won't be able to just casually play and just have fun with goofy loadouts or something like that, because everyone in your lobby will only play with the mindset to win. In those skill groups "play for fun" turns into "play to win". I can understand why not everyone likes that, and I don't understand why developers don't simply create comp and casual game modes to give people the choice what they wanna play.
That said, of course there are also plenty of people who hate SBMM, simply because now they can't farm noobs to look good in front of their 100 Twitch viewers.
No, they want everyone to have games that are fun instead of every player always having a 1.00 kd never feeling like they improve and never having a satisfying multiplayer experience. The entire point of pvp games is to want to beat other players and have good games. that is the entire draw. SBMM punishes 99% of players. There are no casual games where you can just lay back and have a good game. You will always be playing against people just as good as yourself. This means if you wanna play well you will have to try your ass off.
@@Rageinggames1 How do you improve if you play against people who are shit at the game
@@ADadasadasdadw Thats why they should have two things: SBMM and Dedicated Servers for whenever you want to feel like a god stomping on Timmy 11 on his dell computer from 2008.
if youre mad about being matched with sweats, dont sweat yourself
I played competitive tf2, once.
I thought I'd be matched up with people of my own low-skill level. Did not think at all about the fact that due to competitive costing money, only sweats play it. Despite not getting flamed at all, I still feel like shit for genuinely bottom fragging so hard the couple of matches I played. I don't think I got a single kill, and died veryy quickly after reaching a control point. Nothing I tried helped me do better at all, so I couldn't stop thinking of how much I was ruining my teammates' game :(
I agree. SBMM really killed the fun. It used to be a healthy mix of skill. There was always 1-4 outliers at the top and everyone else was part of a range of skill and i usually was average with the occasional toping of the LB. However once SBMM came into play in games i consistently ended up at the bottom getting killed by people so fast i didn't even understand what was happening. I'm not a sweat and i just can't compete with that nor will i work an 8-5 job trying to beat them. I just don't play SBMM games anymore. I don't want both the enemy team and my team filled with what is essentially = to or better than the top 4 players in a normal game because when that happens your just shut out unless you have serious reflexes, play a very specific way (like they are doing), and in my case i had to play tactically to offset my poor reflexes. I don't ever remember winning a straight up fight with one of those players except in cases of sheer luck. It was almost always i out positioned them and had them at a serious disadvantage, and even then they won roughly 50% of the time because they were so good that they could still hit me even when i was very well positioned. Shots that I personally could NEVER reliably get and they got it very consistently.
Leave SBMM for competative gaming. Leave casual gaming TF alone. I'm willing to bet that Meta builds are a direct result of SBMM forcing people to optimize gameplay when their skill reached a ceiling like mine did. Meta also kills games because it ruins variety and creativity. I had a spell where i did perform well in COD BO2 for example but i didn't enjoy it. It did it with 2 'meta' loadouts that focused on insane three-attatchment primaries. One was a sidearm, though i don't remember which one, and the other was a shotgun. Both setups increased damage and reduced hipfire spread so much you could get as good as or better than ADS accuracy while in a full sprint. Obviously, that actually worked well, but it got old so fast. it's not fun when you play meta and that meta is so obviously superior that you smash the opposition. It also taints your win because you know that artificial factors like using a meta build were key to your victory.
For casual gametypes they really need to reintroduce the exceptionally wide range of player skill, but only slightly limit it to make sure that skilled players are dispersed fairly and no more than maybe 3 per team. The real meat of the game needs to be the mid and low skill players who actually have the manpower to win the game, while the high skill players can basically give a constant pressure to keep the game intense. This also allows a bit of learning to occur. You can't drop in a low 10% player in a full lobby of top 10% players and expect them to get any better. They will get mopped way to fast and often to really understand why they got killed. You need to seamlessly weave just a couple high skill players per game so that people can work with them, learn, and improve. Special exceptions for high skill players should be made in some games like battlefield 4 where a single high skill player can easily get 100+ kills in a helicopter in just a few minutes. in the cases where a high skill player can single handedly carry a game if not significantly threatened then there should be something done about it. Those are rare and battlefield 4 is probably one of the only ones i know of like that right offhand.
Honestly i wouldnt say meta builds are a result of SBMM at all, contary i think they generally are something that actually becomes more prevelant in casual/rankless lobbies. As the people who struggle the most with fighting meta are the lower experience players. The prevalance of a meta will always be in any game were winning or doing well is a goal, what matters is that the meta is fun and diverse. Which is the job of the developers themselves to balance.
Immediate Gratification...The Fucking Problem today
I think not only does SBMM make it harder to just play a nice chill game, it also makes it harder to match people together in games with smaller populations.
Great video. I definitely want it back the way it was, having entire hours sessions with near the same players in a lobby honestly learning the game as a whole.
I used to get destroyed back on MW2 in 09 until I just got better. But because I was playing with the crew it all became laughing points and working it out together.
They removed that aspect of the game so far with how sophisticated SBMM is now. It’s been pointed out that it existed in those earlier CoD days, but ask around and no one felt it tbh.
I will point out at this juncture it’s positioning casual time and competitive time as separate things with the current design. Just not sure how I feel about it atm.
yeah whoever the dev was that said that is coping. If there was SBMM it wasn't to this degree in the least.
My problem with it is when they skew the teams and make me derank because of it. For example if you put me on a team of silvers vs a team of golds then you are saying that you think im gold or better right. So why does it make me derank to bronze.
Skilled based match making doesn’t even exist anymore in CS:GO
CS has an ELO system excluded to ranked. And everyone is fine with that because the bullshit is placed in certain bullshit
I think that there should be three systems for matchmaking that is included games. I think they should have a matchmaking type a casual without sbmm like old cod. The option to have casual with SBMM if you want it. And lastly they should have an actual ranked system like Csgo or r6.
@beenguy5887 It started with br's bc its not fun to hop on fortnite and lose every single match so they'll throw you a win here and there to keep you playing and in some games I noticed they seem to intentionally match you against people who have purchased something in the in-game store before they completely steam roll your entire team to try and get you to impulse buy
How difficult can it be to have a casual game mode where ping is king and a ranked mode with SBMM?
I think another issue is that with COD when you start playing against people who know the game the way you're forced to play just to
compete . . . isn't fun.
What do you mean by play the game the way your forced to play. Every gun/load out is viable in standard MP (except maybe the jokr).
Last Modern Warfare I was doing alright, then I decided to give myself a challenge to only play with pistols after a few games I was topfragging with them but ofcourse the satisfaction wore off (immediately) that exact moment that I realized I had just started being placed in worse lobbies... I think a big thing about video games is to relax and also be able to feel you are getting better at something in COD unless you are at the top 1% of players you are not going to get satisfied, I am not that player anymore so I just quit. The old games where you jumped in to community servers starting to recognize other player names and learning how they played and also have them react to how you played is no more, now it is just random meaningless player every game and while that can be fun sometimes it will never be the same as before unfortunately.
Skill based match making resulted in me having the same KD as all faze members in cod😂 It also ruined the ability to flex with your diamond camo as this is not earned anymore through skill but only how much you play.
Skill based match making ruined games.
Dedicated server browsers are sorely missed. Bookmarking favorite servers with particular mods, and just getting to know people, and have a community to play with, is nice. Skill level doesn't have to matter.
Finally someone who gets the point across!
I absolutely agree with everything you said here, the drawing and the way you explained the issue hits the nail on the head. SBMM is of course an integral part of gaming, but the window in unranked matches is way too tight. I used to play Apex Legends a lot with my friends who were pro players in that game, while I wasn‘t as good as them, I would say I was in the ballpark of skill. At some point in the game‘s life the SBMM got so incredibly specific that the game became unplayable for me. I got put in lobbies with professional players almost half the unranked matches I played, making the casual experience for me miserable, I never wanted to play to just try my heart out, I just wanted to enjoy the game and that enjoyment was utterly shattered with the state of SBMM in that game, eventually making me quit. I just do not agree with developers constantly trying to improve the SBMM, especially in games that have a seperate ranked game mode. At one point I was forced to play ranked simply because there I wasn‘t constantly facing literal pros. I hope more creators speak out against SBMM in a similar way to you.
Is it normal that i died 173 times in Cod with only 4 kills and it was my first time and the enemy were level 850?
I like that literally killed a play style where you constantly moving while aiming down the sights. You can do it in previous game like MW3 with perk Stalker you had 80-90% movement speed with your ar/smg. Nowadays it's barely a 50-60% without attachment and each touch it in some negative way.
Doesn’t change much, now everyone just mounts on corners and camps- they just removed the movement aspect 🤷♂️
I think the problem is, when a game is much more gamesense-oriented, like Overwatch 2, getting stomped by veterans as a new guy is much worse than the experience you described, cause not only are you getting shut down left and right, but you can't even tell why or how to improve from it.
Because I remember my first experience with TF2, and it was mostly as you described it, progressively getting better with my aim on classes like Soldier and Sniper... until I decided to tackle Spy, a mostly gamesense-oriented class, and my beginnings with him became much more painful than with the others as I just kept getting screwed over and over by what seemed like the dumbest of luck -- like getting denied an easy backstab by someone who just respawned behind me, or getting hunted down by five people cause I accidentally bumped a half-drunk player while invisible, or just eating spam the exact moment I decided to cross a chokepoint -- that's just the kind of stuff you're not going to understand what went wrong precisely because it requires thinking several seconds ahead of time in order to see the problem and avoid it, rather than "oh, I died because I just missed most of my shots while they didn't, guess I better get gud".
I recently described my experience with OW2 as "An overwhelming amount of visual noise and particle effects then a kill cam of my death."
Overwatch is just a terrible game in general
@@hxsjdbdjavs nah not really, is it better then team fortress? Nah but it's still good and it shows that with its player count what you said couldn't be more ignorant
Maybe, it’s just because I’m a fighting game player. A genre that is defined by long term growth over instant gratification. But I will never understand any argument for why SBMM is bad when it’s just supposed to match people with players of the same skill level.
If COD has bad SBMM then that’s a COD problem, not a problem with the system.
I mean there is a problem with the system and it's in multiple AAA games. warzone 2.0, overwatch 2, apex legends. I could keep going. I went from averaging 1 loss per 2 wins to a 27 loss streak in a single day.
@@MajorStupid I'm still confused though. how is you losing the games fault? Isn't that supposed to be something that's a reflection of yourself. If you're losing, isn't the proper recourse to, ya know... Git Gud.
and, if you aren't trying to get good and just want to have fun. Then why does it matter whether you win or lose?
@@Persephone_07 because losing 20 games while your grinding for a character that you're required to get wins for isn't fun, and I was already pretty good right off the bat. One guy thought I was smurfing.
@@MajorStupid If it's not fun then why are you doing it?
This video is specifically about COD, so I'll keep it to it's system for now. It seems to be the case that you are matched with people above and below your skill level. As WarOwl stated in the video, it's likely that the players upset about SBMM are, likely, above average (or just hear it talked about negatively, and have no real concept of what it's doing). So they will be matched against those who are very good at the game. The difference between a brand new player and a below average player is not as wide as an above average player and a top 10% player. The rate of improvement from new to average is far quicker than average to top 10%.
Next, take into account that unless you play Free for All, you will be matched with a team. If you are a solo queue and go against a team of people who are queuing together, you will lose 9 times out of 10. It's very difficult to accurately balance a team of solo queue players and a squad of 6. There is no good answer for that problem, at least that I can see.
Since your background is in fighting games, any time you lose, you can only look to your personal performance. You're being matched with an individual, so the gap of skill is much easier to keep track of for the matchmaking system. Multiply that by 6, and now you have to (likely) deal in team average instead of individual ability, which can make a MASSIVE difference in the final outcome.
I don't think SBMM is inherently bad, just an issue for team based games. I don't know any elegant solutions for that if they're going to keep the information about what skill bracket you're in hidden from the player, as it will always be impossible to tell where you are and if you're matched against equal level players.
One thing i always remember is that, if i call someone an idiot for making a mistake and the next game i make the same mistake, i will automatically think myself as an idiot. And vice versa being more forgiving on other players helps you be more forgiving on yourself. Spread the positive vibes lads
LoL "Just don't play CoD" ...Totally agree
I’m just trying to chill and have fun but all the games I play have sbmm and it’s just a sweatfest all the time. Especially when I’m never using meta weapons and what not
I think people have figured out how to game the SBMM in MW2. They play objective based gamemodes and just dont ever attempt to play the objective. They treat it like team deathmatch meaning they lose most games but get to play against really bad players that focus on the objective. This lets them feel powerful and get all their fun killstreaks and stuff. It makes people who do play the objective feel like their winning but have zero gratification because they know the other team is throwing.
That’s what I do. I never played Dom or hard point until mw 2019
You realise it takes into account everything? How much you play objective, accuracy, movement. 😂
Yeah, i'm guilty for that. TDM lasts about the same time i can scratch my balls, pretty much spend more time loading its all over so quickly. At least with objective modes rounds last longer, so more play time. SBMM i dont think works that way, even though i hardly play objective, i still suffer with SBMM. You'll get nothing and be happy about it, as they say 👍
I’m hoping with the implementation of a ranked system which I believe they stated they will be doing that it will let them lax up the SBMM on the casual games since the people looking to really try will go there
they wont tone down SBMM in quick play.
SBMM definitely makes me not want to play video games… it’s so much better when the lobby is all over the place in skill… it’s fun. Get good.
Even when I sucked at cod more than I do now, I still had fun going up against sweaty try hards, because then it felt so much more satisfying when you killed them. And then when you lost you can just blame it on the single individual.
For casual games I think the ideal matchmaking would be to just throw random lobbies together and then sort the teams by skill to make them as fair as possible.
If all those years ago I only went up against other shitty people like me, I wouldn't have gotten much better, but playing with good people I learned from them and was challenged to get better and beat them
The most fun experiences I've had are when teams are both balanced that way
me when I can not destroy six year olds playing on their motorola phone with GeForce now
yeah i couldnt be the only one who hears "you play against people who ARENT shit" and i think "that sounds wonderful actually, my main problem with mw2019 was how easy some games were" im not a loser who needs easy cheap wins there is nothing satisfying about killing a robot or a helpless child its too easy i want to get better i want to improve but hell maybe i actually like videogames and i dont just use them to validate my ego or others impression of my "skill" some of my best games of counterstrike are games where i lost 14-16 but both teams played their heart out i get happy just thinking about those games and i didnt even win.
Skill Based Matchmaking is trash never do anything good for players. There will be no good cod until sbmm will be removed
A lot of this comes from game companies wanting to promote and own their own competitive scene by keeping player rankings as an integrated part of the game. In a way this is good because it streamlines everything that is necessary to become a legitimate E-Sport. It's when this comes at the cost of the casual fun of the game that it becomes a real problem.
The main issue is, if you want to sweat your ass off, thats fine. Go and play a ranked mode. Quick play should NOT be SBMM.
But if there is no sbmm even in casuals, what's stopping the game from matching you against top players when you might not be. And if you are a top player, you might get ranked against newbies which isn't fun for either side. I think it should be much more lenient in casuals, but not out right removed.
@@mrmeatball1478 I get the argument for it, but people just saying "get gud" doesn't help anyone. For a casual game like this it needs an open mode where SBMM isnt a thing. If CoD want to enforce SBMM, i dont get why they don't make a ranked mode, show you your ranks so you can see progession and stuff like that rather than just having levels which mean fuck all.
@@PimsPlaysGamesIn my opinion not having sbmm in more objective based team shooters is pure torture. Without it, every game turns into a "stomp the enemy, or get stomped" kinda thing (even if your playing casuals) and it's not fun. In more arena based shooters like CoD though, yeah I'll agree, it really doesn't need sbmm.
@@mrmeatball1478 There 100% should be a ranked/sbmm mode in the game. Just not basic casual games, there should be its own ranked play list away from quick play modes. Now CS on the other hand is a completely different thing.
@@PimsPlaysGames Yep I agree