I've never understood it when people say, "I hate the *fill in the blank* trope." Really? You've decided in advance that every time you come across that trope, you're going to dislike the story because of it? Tropes are tools and, as such, elements of storytelling. They exist for a reason, and they can be used well or not well. But hating one wholesale is, to me, much like saying, "I hate settings." Or, "I hate characters." Or, "I hate symbols." LPQ would be my exhibit A of a love triangle that adds significantly to the story. Great video, Johanna!
I love this comment so much, Philip! Couldn't agree more. I'm just kicking myself for not including a triangle variation from Age of Madness, which perfectly complements the rise of industrialism, revolution, and Abercrombie's brilliant humor! Happy Valentine's Day!
I concur. I'm not wild about the Chosen One trope, but I've also liked stories where that either played a role in the traditional sense and I've loved it deconstructed and subverted.
Completely agree! I like love triangles when they don't dominate the 'A Plot' or the 'B Plot' but simmer in the background. It presents a great opportunity for character development and can be used to explore themes, particularly morality (The Arthurian Tales does this fantastically)
Thank you! I didn’t even think about Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot! That’s such a great example that’s influenced the Arthurian-inspired tales in fantasy.
I'm reading Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove and there's a love square going on as well as 2 love triangles have been made clear to have happened in the past and yes, there are at least 1 recurring character in these scenarios and its so fascinating and entertaining.
I am about 70% done with Tigana, my first Guy book, and I have to say I admire his character work very much. Guy has a keen eye for different personality traits that he is able to infuse into his characters. I am a fan of this. It comes as no surprise to me that he would handle love triangles well. Now I know which my second Gavriel Kay book is going to be. I don't particularly hate love triangles, but the kind of writer that knows how to employ them organically and realistically is not very common. I feel like most of them use love triangles for the scandal factor. A "feature" they build the book around so it gets more attention. And the fact that most of these situations are handled in an adolescent manner by the characters tends to get tedious for me. I believe it was in the 10 Disturbing Books video that you got me interested in the Prince of Nothing trilogy. I'll just be reading them sooner after this!
I'm so glad you're enjoying Tigana! I'll be reading that book in April. While I've only read two Guy Gavriel Kay books, I think tropes don't feel like tropes when I read them in his books. Like you said, he is so good at infusing each character with personality traits. I hope you find Prince of Nothing fascinating ("enjoy" always feels like the wrong word for that series 😅).
Great video! I try not to generalize any hate or love for tropes. I have my favorites and ones I'm wary of...such as love triangles. Yet It all comes down to how it impacts the overall story and enjoyment...and glad you mention LPQ because that is a great example of the love triangle done well. Looking forward to Guns of the Dawn and of course Lions of Al-Rassan.
Thank you, Christopher! I'm so glad we agree about LPQ, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts on Guns and Lions when you get to them. Happy Valentine's Day to you and yours!
The first time I read Lions of Al-Rassan I had to put the book down during an event late in the story, because I was crying so much I couldn't see the text anymore...
I personally actually love a good love triangle. As you said, I think it can be a really good representation of a character choosing between two paths or two parts of themselves, particularly in YA when characters are still very much learning about themselves. I also think it can just be fun for readers to argue about, like I think back to arguing with my friends about Gale vs. Peeta when THG was first out. It was just fun to talk about
My favorite love triangle in the lions of all~rassan is done so well!!! I’m actually surprised you didn’t pick up on it right away, to me it was so obvious ! Just like the friendship between Rodrigo and Ammar…. And between the king and hisvezierI have raved about this book to everyone, even secondary characters are terrific.
Oh I love this video, Johanna!! So well articulated, as always. I have never been a love triangle hater, and I even enjoy the messy and angsty ones in YA hahah. Sometimes you just want that type of melodrama and tension, you know? Definitely agree that the way these books execute them is just absolute perfection though, especially for LPQ and Guns of the Dawn! 🤩
Thank you, Esmay! I've enjoyed some of the messy YA love triangles most adult fantasy readers hate! I understand why people hate those kinds of love triangles, but I can't understand the love triangle hate coming from any fan of the books I talked about in this video. 😄
I just finished The Darkness That Comes Before and the “love triangle” part of the Esmi’s story felt very organic. So I appreciate that stuff when the author integrates it seamlessly. ❤
@@Johanna_reads you were right. I also did not recognize the love triangle trope while reading the book because it wasn't in-your-face. It was so cleverly written. The only thing that puzzled me up to now is Serwë's unexplained fascination of Kellhus. I better read tWP soon :D
A very interesting take honestly! I honestly haven't thought about subtlety as a key element--generally I avoid the trope like the plague because I find it predictable, so when you mentioned subtlety and proximity I had (as you said) a lightbulb moment. Used well, it can add a lot to a story if done well. Thank you for sharing Johanna, I always love your meta-topic videos! Great food for thought!
Thank you, Livia! My mindset has flipped so much since identifying these love triangles in adult fantasy. I love it when that happens. Can't thank you enough for your positive feedback on this type of video. They're always so much fun to make but also take a bit more time and courage. 😅
This was such a thoughtful video! The hatred for love triangles is so common it's well worth diving into 'why' we don't like them. I haven't read any of the books you mentioned but they present great food for thought. My theory on why love triangles don't often work is that they are often used to keep character relationships static. Instead of the characters growing and changing, the author falls back on the 'will they or won't they' tension of the love triangle for the entire book (or multiple books!) and it prevents the relationships between the characters from changing in any meaningful way. Great video!
Completely agree! I think many YA books I’ve read and Asian dramas I watched wore me down of love triangles because they were often part of or interrupting the main plots. But I do really like when love triangles are in the background and support the plot or show how the character’s perspective and life has changed through the course of the book. I haven’t read any of the books you mentioned but I now have new books to add to my TBR! Haha
Long price quartet and guns of the dawn are among my most favorite reads. I’m a fan of love triangles done right - bumping up lions of al-rassan on my list. Thanks for the great vid!!
I absolutely LOVE triangles. Since I’ve started to read more Adult fantasy I’ve noticed that this trope is super hated on and not found very often. I just assumed like “Vampires” or “Trials” the love triangle trope had just run its course as a trend and would maybe surface again in time. But still, I have been craving a really good love triangle in my adult Fantasy 😩🙌🏽 So this video was exactly what I needed. Thank you!
Hooray for love triangles! They're often more hidden in fantasy (at least to me), but I was surprised by how many I found. There were several I didn't even include in this video. Thanks!
Very interesting video! I would say I agree with you and I believe that it all boils down to how well it is written and presented to the reader. As with most tropes, it is not actually the idea behind the trope but the poor/sloppy implementation of it that makes readers hate them.
I've not read the GGK book so I don' t know how the characters feel, but both in LPQ and Second Apocalypse I think one thing that really drives home that the triangles work is that there is, especially in LPQ, a significant relationship between the 2 males. I don't tend to care for love triangles, but maybe that's something that I need to not be annoyed by them, the 2 men being connected in a deeper way than just both caring for the woman. I did enjoy Guns of the Dawn as well where the 2 men going after Emily don't have any relationship between them, but maybe Tchaikovsky is just that good of a writer. Maybe this trope just needs extremely skilled authors to make it not be executed poorly.
I did bring attention to how LPQ zoomed in on the dynamic between the two male characters, and that’s a really good point about Prince of Nothing adding that dimension as well! Guns of the Dawn was so well handled as well! Hope you enjoy GGK if you get to his books!
You said it well. Any trope can be done well and I will enjoy it even the dreaded love triangle lol. Great examples as well even though I have not read them.
When i used to read a lot of contemporary romance, i got to the point of really not liking love triangles AT ALL. Now, i totally agree with you that when they are done right, they can be marvelous (e.g. LPQ, Guns of the Dawn). I just read George Eliot's The Mill on the Floss last month and there is one in there that is so well done! I think i didn't like them in Contemporary romance as being the focus of the book but I'm finding in classic romance (and some fantasy), I'm not minding them as much
I know what you mean! I’ve read some contemporary romance books, and I got a bit tired of that trope because I saw it so frequently used without much variation. Fantasy has made me realize new possibilities! I’ll have to look up The Mill on the Floss!
Great video! I never considered The Prince of Nothing a love triangle, but you’re right. And they really are the best when they are thematic. A Dance with Dragons has another that’s pretty good.
Feel free to share one from A Dance with Dragons! I was later thinking there could be a case for Jamie-Cersei-Brienne. Wish I had thought to include that one!
@@Johanna_reads He was the means to peace and represented her distaste toward peace. But maybe that undermined the "love" aspect of the triangle, haha.
Wow, great job! I haven't read any of those books....yet, but they are on my long, long list to get to, and this video makes me even more eager to get there.
Great video! You always make me very intrigued by The Long Price Quartet when you talk about it. Is it a simple enough told story to listen in audio format? I don't think I'll have room for it on my traditional read tbr anytime soon. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on The Aspects-Emperor series where Bakker gets really messy with his relationships.
Thanks, Andrew! I did double up with the audiobook, and while I thought it was okay, I can imagine it not appealing to many readers. The voices of certain characters sounded a little cartoony. I’m looking forward to Aspect-Emperor whenever Philip is ready!
I agree too. Any ’trope' can be developed in a meaningful way, or completely messed up. It is a pity that there are just too many examples of this one being bungled up, often as you say in romance and/or YA. I’ve only read Guns of the Dawn of the titles you mentioned and the choices Tchaikovsky made made perfect sense. Can’t wait to read LPQ and Lions, especially for featuring older protagonists. Right - other examples. Not that easy - thinking of major choices impersonated by a character... Maybe Translation State by Ann Leckie, which tackles gender and identity too. Since you liked Stoner, you may like these:The Return of the Soldier by Rebecca West, and Cheerful Weather for the Wedding by Julia Strachley.
Kinda running in parallel with Philip’s excellent comment: I forget which essay(s) it’s in, but Le Guin talked about how her writing was about discovering who a character was and recording their story. Her point was that she did not sit down and think “I will write a story that does X” or “the goal is to arrive at Y.” Instead she recorded the cause-and-effect of the characters’ natural and rational choices. As a result, relationships, whatever shape they take, or character arcs, or any other narrative building blocks manifest in a way that can make them instantly emotionally engaging and not wear on the reader’s patience. I suspect that if you asked other top-tier authors (GGK, Sean Stewart, Susanna Clarke, Octavia Butler, etc.) they would probably agree with this. Tropes seem to agitate readers when the trope itself is in the driver’s seat, forcing choices upon the narrative rather than the characters naturally making those choices. A fine example of this is The Once and Future King (simply because I’m in the end stages of reading it currently). TH White is somewhat constrained by his determination to follow Mallory’s narrative trajectory, but Arthur, Lancelot, Guenevere, Gawain, and the rest don’t feel like they’re acting because the story needs them to - their established psychologies drive them to make choice predetermined by tradition, but I keep forgetting that because I am persuaded by the characters themselves. Le Guin’s Ged follows a narrative route that’s obvious to anyone who’s heard of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung (or really, even if you haven’t - I hadn’t when I was 12 but I instantly recognized the narrative trajectory of the book), but because it was written from the perspective of “What would Ged do? Why would he? What’s the point to it?” the book’s arc arrives at an inevitable end, but it’s powerfully compelling because Ged “chose” his path rather than having it forced on him by Le Guin. Put another way, in the 2020(?) documentary on Le Guin, it opens with her giving a talk to aspiring writers at Powell’s Books and she begins by saying something like “There is no set of rules for how to write books. Each book has its own rules that must be followed in order to write it, and the task of writing it is the task of discovering those rules and then following them correctly. Then you must discover the rules for the next book you want to write.”
I love this! I'll have to locate that Le Guin essay. I have a few of them in my Earthsea bind-up. It reminds me of something Merphy, Bookborn and I touched on in our discussion (on Merphy Napier Books) when we said that sometimes authors aren't intentionally writing about a certain theme. Ideas can arise organically while writing. In Le Guin's case, she seemed actively engaged in building cohesion congruent with what she was already inspired to write.
@@Johanna_reads I’m told that Library of America has plans to put out a volume of Le Guin’s non-fiction in the next few years. In the meantime, Language of the Night and Dancing on the Edge of the World are both magnificent essay collections. And there are many interviews available on TH-cam where she often touched upon these principles. I’ve watched dozens of many of them that I can’t keep straight which is which, I just know it’s her ideas in general :)
I don't think I ever really considered that the "Love Triangle" trope doesn't even have to be about the romantic element, but rather the conflict between friends/enemies/etc. When I see it coming in a book I usually groan and think it will be about abs and stuff. But then it rarely becomes that. That is interesting to think about.
I always say I hate love triangles, not because I hate the stories that have them but because they give me anxiety haha. I get really invested in romance and always have strong feelings of who I want the character to end up with, so I get super anxious throughout the whole book until I know. Which is why, usually, I can handle them more in fantasy where it's not the center of the plot. If it's a romance book I will NOT read it, but for a fantasy I agree that it can be done in a beautiful way. (The Lions of Al Rassan being a perfect example). The Curse of Chalion by Louis McMaster Bujold kinda sorta has a teensy bit of a love triangle. Kinda. But I don't want to explain more so as not to spoil haha. I love that book! I read it last year and am currently rereading it. (I'm not a big rereader usually, but 2024 seems to be the year for them).
Sounds like love triangles might cause more anxious-torture than hopeful-longing in your case! Haha! The Lions one couldn't be more perfect, right? Someday I'll get to Curse of Chalion! Thank you!
I think love triangles got a bad wrap particular from Twilight. Since that was so successful I think there was a lot of “copy paste” to duplicate the success. You’re right though, tropes can be done right. I hate false an accusation tropes, and yet Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite book. If I reflect on why, it’s because I hate the “nobody believes me” trapped feeling. But the author can also leverage that to make a good story.
I agree! Twilight and The Hunger Games, but I also wonder if those series would've been as popular without the triangle. Funny how it can cause longing or eye-rolling, depending on the reader! 😂
There are love triangles and there are luuuv triangles. I think the issue readers have is when authors try to write romance, and just shouldn't. It when they focus on relationships that they make it work. Am really curious on your reaction to Emse's arc in Aspect Emperor. I think a lot of people are just turned off by the story and don't appreciate her character. Agreed on Lions. I think it works because her choice is never a main plot point. It just is. You don't have 'I love Peeta but I also love Gale, oh whatever shall I do?' every 50 pages.
I agree with you it depends on the execution of the writer. When i say i hate love triangles mean i hate when it's used to cause drama (usually together with miscommunication) and books aren't the worst offender there. I've seen that more often in movies and tv series. 😂 For adult fantasy, best example of a love triangle done poorly, in my opinion, is Wheel of Time. Really did not like Jordan's execution with the love triangle with Rand even though i liked the individual characters.
All bumped up my list. Now I'm thinking about this literary tool and I realize the my main WIP is un intentionally headed this way. Though it's erotica paranormal fantasy, The Black Dagger Brotherhood has Vishus/Jane/Butch. The lines are clearly drawn but the impact is gripping.
I typically hate love triangles, but as I thought about it I realized that I'm the co-author on a fan fiction that technically has one, though I'm not sure it counts, as thus far the one who should be conflicted is oblivious enough they aren't aware either of the other points of the triangle are interested in them, so maybe that helps? lmao
That’s an excellent video again. But also has a missed shot. It’s true for any trope. Your video’s base (and true) statement is: “write it well (execution) and we won’t hate it”. Yep, it’s true. Looking at you Twilight 👀 And you too Cassandra Clare and Sarah J Maas. 👀😂 You too 4th Wing…👀 So we are back at the problem. It’s not executed well in the books I’m looking at. In other words: quality matters. In more other words… there is a reason why some people talk like that. Even if it’s a romance book usually the issue is the balance between plot and sub-plot (being the romance any of it). The authors fail to find that balance and so the romance writers plot is shallow and with it everything besides the love interests. But it’s so focused on that becomes obvious what’s going on and also damages the characters identity.
Thank you! The examples you shared are mostly YA fantasy or YA romantasy where love triangles are more celebrated or front-and-center. I've heard several adult fantasy readers (who don't read romantasy or YA) say they don't like love triangles but rarely acknowledge love triangles in adult fantasy. I think these adult fantasy triangles are often camouflaged because they blend with the themes, plot, etc. or support those elements. The triangle doesn't feel like an add-on - though that can happen in adult fantasy as well. I mostly stuck to positive examples!
@@Johanna_reads you are partially right but at the same time one of the reasons why a lot has this prejudice because of these books (and not just in fantasy) not to mention, usually they come in a package deal (toxic person in that relationship, instant love, misrepresenting men or abusive behavior ). Btw: nowadays it’s new adult. In my experience the problem is not with that audience. But the writers. I saw on TikTok that the few authors who took the time to write a seriously crafted piece, are very much welcomed. Btw they call it new adult nowadays. But be it as it may Hunger Games is a YA thing and it is exactly a love triangle.
@@nazimelmardi I agree that the more toxic ones in YA and New Adult are responsible for the love triangle having such a bad reputation. I think it's good to be concerned about that model of relationships, especially when books are marketed toward young readers. I probably could've unpacked that more, but I'm not well-read in YA and New Adult. It's possible that there are love triangles that work in those categories. I did read one New Adult book: Frankly in Love that addressed a fake dating love triangle. While I didn't like the direction it went in some ways, I appreciated how the author used the triangle to focus on Korean-American intersectionality (Korean-American boy fake-dating Korean girl to please Korean parents while having a secret American girlfriend). The triangle was front-and-center in that story (along with all the other tropes), but I thought it worked to illustrate conflicts between identity, culture, and romance. That might not be the best example and not my preferred type of story these days, but I share that example because I think it's possible to have less toxic love triangles in YA and New Adult. 🤷♀
@@Johanna_reads if you have the room for something really unique and both ancient and intensely personal then pick it up. The audiobook is among my favorites.
Love triangles are the woorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrst. I still love YOU though :)
Hahahaha! But what about Jamie-Cersei-Brienne? What about the one with Aragorn, Eowyn, and Arwen? And what about the brilliant, hilarious one (or variation of one) in Age of Madness?
@@Johanna_reads There is no love triangle in LOTR. Aragorn and Arwen are an item. Just because Eowyn is unaware of that fact, it doesn't mean that kindness shown towards her by Aragorn is indicative of romantic interest, even if she sees it as such.
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I've never understood it when people say, "I hate the *fill in the blank* trope." Really? You've decided in advance that every time you come across that trope, you're going to dislike the story because of it? Tropes are tools and, as such, elements of storytelling. They exist for a reason, and they can be used well or not well. But hating one wholesale is, to me, much like saying, "I hate settings." Or, "I hate characters." Or, "I hate symbols." LPQ would be my exhibit A of a love triangle that adds significantly to the story. Great video, Johanna!
I love this comment so much, Philip! Couldn't agree more. I'm just kicking myself for not including a triangle variation from Age of Madness, which perfectly complements the rise of industrialism, revolution, and Abercrombie's brilliant humor! Happy Valentine's Day!
I concur. I'm not wild about the Chosen One trope, but I've also liked stories where that either played a role in the traditional sense and I've loved it deconstructed and subverted.
I hate when an author writs himself into the story...LITERALLY, Philip.
@@thatsci-firogue Absolutely! Even subversions of a trope are still engaging with the trope.
@@mikesbookreviews Except in Song of Susannah! 😁
Completely agree! I like love triangles when they don't dominate the 'A Plot' or the 'B Plot' but simmer in the background. It presents a great opportunity for character development and can be used to explore themes, particularly morality (The Arthurian Tales does this fantastically)
Thank you! I didn’t even think about Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot! That’s such a great example that’s influenced the Arthurian-inspired tales in fantasy.
I'm reading Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove and there's a love square going on as well as 2 love triangles have been made clear to have happened in the past and yes, there are at least 1 recurring character in these scenarios and its so fascinating and entertaining.
I'm reading Lonesome Dove later this year! So excited to hear that!
I am about 70% done with Tigana, my first Guy book, and I have to say I admire his character work very much. Guy has a keen eye for different personality traits that he is able to infuse into his characters. I am a fan of this.
It comes as no surprise to me that he would handle love triangles well. Now I know which my second Gavriel Kay book is going to be.
I don't particularly hate love triangles, but the kind of writer that knows how to employ them organically and realistically is not very common. I feel like most of them use love triangles for the scandal factor. A "feature" they build the book around so it gets more attention. And the fact that most of these situations are handled in an adolescent manner by the characters tends to get tedious for me.
I believe it was in the 10 Disturbing Books video that you got me interested in the Prince of Nothing trilogy. I'll just be reading them sooner after this!
I'm so glad you're enjoying Tigana! I'll be reading that book in April. While I've only read two Guy Gavriel Kay books, I think tropes don't feel like tropes when I read them in his books. Like you said, he is so good at infusing each character with personality traits. I hope you find Prince of Nothing fascinating ("enjoy" always feels like the wrong word for that series 😅).
Great video! I try not to generalize any hate or love for tropes. I have my favorites and ones I'm wary of...such as love triangles. Yet It all comes down to how it impacts the overall story and enjoyment...and glad you mention LPQ because that is a great example of the love triangle done well. Looking forward to Guns of the Dawn and of course Lions of Al-Rassan.
Thank you, Christopher! I'm so glad we agree about LPQ, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts on Guns and Lions when you get to them. Happy Valentine's Day to you and yours!
The first time I read Lions of Al-Rassan I had to put the book down during an event late in the story, because I was crying so much I couldn't see the text anymore...
It’s so good! 🥲
Looking forward to Prince of Nothing and Lions is my next GGK that I have picked out to get into.
You're going to love it! I can't wait to hear your thoughts and whether you'd fight for the role of Ammar Khairan!😁
I personally actually love a good love triangle. As you said, I think it can be a really good representation of a character choosing between two paths or two parts of themselves, particularly in YA when characters are still very much learning about themselves. I also think it can just be fun for readers to argue about, like I think back to arguing with my friends about Gale vs. Peeta when THG was first out. It was just fun to talk about
Nothing wrong with loving a YA love triangle! I've enjoyed some that most other readers would detest, but reading should be fun in any case! :)
My favorite love triangle in the lions of all~rassan is done so well!!!
I’m actually surprised you didn’t pick up on it right away, to me it was so obvious ! Just like the friendship between Rodrigo and Ammar…. And between the king and hisvezierI have raved about this book to everyone, even secondary characters are terrific.
You’re right that it’s obvious! I was just so immersed that I didn’t take the time to think about it in that way. It’s such a brilliant book!
@@Johanna_reads brilliant! A true rare gem❤️❤️❤️
Oh I love this video, Johanna!! So well articulated, as always. I have never been a love triangle hater, and I even enjoy the messy and angsty ones in YA hahah. Sometimes you just want that type of melodrama and tension, you know? Definitely agree that the way these books execute them is just absolute perfection though, especially for LPQ and Guns of the Dawn! 🤩
Thank you, Esmay! I've enjoyed some of the messy YA love triangles most adult fantasy readers hate! I understand why people hate those kinds of love triangles, but I can't understand the love triangle hate coming from any fan of the books I talked about in this video. 😄
I just finished The Darkness That Comes Before and the “love triangle” part of the Esmi’s story felt very organic. So I appreciate that stuff when the author integrates it seamlessly. ❤
Yay! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on The Warrior Prophet!!!
@@Johanna_reads you were right. I also did not recognize the love triangle trope while reading the book because it wasn't in-your-face. It was so cleverly written. The only thing that puzzled me up to now is Serwë's unexplained fascination of Kellhus. I better read tWP soon :D
@@dlasis it gets more and more wild! There's so much I left out in this video concerning those characters. So fascinating!
A very interesting take honestly! I honestly haven't thought about subtlety as a key element--generally I avoid the trope like the plague because I find it predictable, so when you mentioned subtlety and proximity I had (as you said) a lightbulb moment. Used well, it can add a lot to a story if done well. Thank you for sharing Johanna, I always love your meta-topic videos! Great food for thought!
Thank you, Livia! My mindset has flipped so much since identifying these love triangles in adult fantasy. I love it when that happens. Can't thank you enough for your positive feedback on this type of video. They're always so much fun to make but also take a bit more time and courage. 😅
This was such a thoughtful video! The hatred for love triangles is so common it's well worth diving into 'why' we don't like them. I haven't read any of the books you mentioned but they present great food for thought.
My theory on why love triangles don't often work is that they are often used to keep character relationships static. Instead of the characters growing and changing, the author falls back on the 'will they or won't they' tension of the love triangle for the entire book (or multiple books!) and it prevents the relationships between the characters from changing in any meaningful way.
Great video!
Thank you so much! That's a really good theory about what causes a love triangle to fall flat. Good food for thought!
Completely agree! I think many YA books I’ve read and Asian dramas I watched wore me down of love triangles because they were often part of or interrupting the main plots. But I do really like when love triangles are in the background and support the plot or show how the character’s perspective and life has changed through the course of the book. I haven’t read any of the books you mentioned but I now have new books to add to my TBR! Haha
Thank you! How funny that it frequently shows up in Asian dramas as well. I've watched a few, but it's been a while! Happy reading!
Long price quartet and guns of the dawn are among my most favorite reads. I’m a fan of love triangles done right - bumping up lions of al-rassan on my list. Thanks for the great vid!!
Thank you, Kaitlyn! I hope you enjoy The Lions of Al-Rassan!
I absolutely LOVE triangles. Since I’ve started to read more Adult fantasy I’ve noticed that this trope is super hated on and not found very often. I just assumed like “Vampires” or “Trials” the love triangle trope had just run its course as a trend and would maybe surface again in time. But still, I have been craving a really good love triangle in my adult Fantasy 😩🙌🏽 So this video was exactly what I needed. Thank you!
Hooray for love triangles! They're often more hidden in fantasy (at least to me), but I was surprised by how many I found. There were several I didn't even include in this video. Thanks!
Very interesting video! I would say I agree with you and I believe that it all boils down to how well it is written and presented to the reader. As with most tropes, it is not actually the idea behind the trope but the poor/sloppy implementation of it that makes readers hate them.
Thank you, Mike! 😊
I've not read the GGK book so I don' t know how the characters feel, but both in LPQ and Second Apocalypse I think one thing that really drives home that the triangles work is that there is, especially in LPQ, a significant relationship between the 2 males. I don't tend to care for love triangles, but maybe that's something that I need to not be annoyed by them, the 2 men being connected in a deeper way than just both caring for the woman. I did enjoy Guns of the Dawn as well where the 2 men going after Emily don't have any relationship between them, but maybe Tchaikovsky is just that good of a writer. Maybe this trope just needs extremely skilled authors to make it not be executed poorly.
I did bring attention to how LPQ zoomed in on the dynamic between the two male characters, and that’s a really good point about Prince of Nothing adding that dimension as well! Guns of the Dawn was so well handled as well! Hope you enjoy GGK if you get to his books!
You said it well. Any trope can be done well and I will enjoy it even the dreaded love triangle lol. Great examples as well even though I have not read them.
After filming I thought of ones I could've added from First Law, ASOIAF, and maybe LotR. Thank you so much!
When i used to read a lot of contemporary romance, i got to the point of really not liking love triangles AT ALL. Now, i totally agree with you that when they are done right, they can be marvelous (e.g. LPQ, Guns of the Dawn). I just read George Eliot's The Mill on the Floss last month and there is one in there that is so well done! I think i didn't like them in Contemporary romance as being the focus of the book but I'm finding in classic romance (and some fantasy), I'm not minding them as much
I know what you mean! I’ve read some contemporary romance books, and I got a bit tired of that trope because I saw it so frequently used without much variation. Fantasy has made me realize new possibilities! I’ll have to look up The Mill on the Floss!
@@Johanna_reads It's George Eliot
Great video! I never considered The Prince of Nothing a love triangle, but you’re right. And they really are the best when they are thematic. A Dance with Dragons has another that’s pretty good.
Feel free to share one from A Dance with Dragons! I was later thinking there could be a case for Jamie-Cersei-Brienne. Wish I had thought to include that one!
@@Johanna_reads I was thinking the Dany one with Hizdahr and Daario. They represented the two sides of Dany, the peaceful and the violent.
@@leehunts4327 I wouldn't describe Hizdahr as peaceful-he was super creepy and they had no chemistry. It was a conflict for her though!
@@Johanna_reads He was the means to peace and represented her distaste toward peace. But maybe that undermined the "love" aspect of the triangle, haha.
@@leehunts4327 oh I see what you mean! Haha!
Wow, great job! I haven't read any of those books....yet, but they are on my long, long list to get to, and this video makes me even more eager to get there.
I cannot imagine a universe in which you don't love Guy Gavriel Kay's Lions of Al-Rassan or A Song for Arbonne!
Great video! You always make me very intrigued by The Long Price Quartet when you talk about it. Is it a simple enough told story to listen in audio format? I don't think I'll have room for it on my traditional read tbr anytime soon.
I can't wait to hear your thoughts on The Aspects-Emperor series where Bakker gets really messy with his relationships.
Thanks, Andrew! I did double up with the audiobook, and while I thought it was okay, I can imagine it not appealing to many readers. The voices of certain characters sounded a little cartoony.
I’m looking forward to Aspect-Emperor whenever Philip is ready!
I agree too. Any ’trope' can be developed in a meaningful way, or completely messed up. It is a pity that there are just too many examples of this one being bungled up, often as you say in romance and/or YA.
I’ve only read Guns of the Dawn of the titles you mentioned and the choices Tchaikovsky made made perfect sense. Can’t wait to read LPQ and Lions, especially for featuring older protagonists.
Right - other examples. Not that easy - thinking of major choices impersonated by a character... Maybe Translation State by Ann Leckie, which tackles gender and identity too. Since you liked Stoner, you may like these:The Return of the Soldier by Rebecca West, and Cheerful Weather for the Wedding by Julia Strachley.
Hooray! I hope you enjoy LPQ and Lions. I'd love to hear your thoughts on both. Thanks for the recommendations!
Kinda running in parallel with Philip’s excellent comment:
I forget which essay(s) it’s in, but Le Guin talked about how her writing was about discovering who a character was and recording their story. Her point was that she did not sit down and think “I will write a story that does X” or “the goal is to arrive at Y.” Instead she recorded the cause-and-effect of the characters’ natural and rational choices. As a result, relationships, whatever shape they take, or character arcs, or any other narrative building blocks manifest in a way that can make them instantly emotionally engaging and not wear on the reader’s patience. I suspect that if you asked other top-tier authors (GGK, Sean Stewart, Susanna Clarke, Octavia Butler, etc.) they would probably agree with this. Tropes seem to agitate readers when the trope itself is in the driver’s seat, forcing choices upon the narrative rather than the characters naturally making those choices.
A fine example of this is The Once and Future King (simply because I’m in the end stages of reading it currently). TH White is somewhat constrained by his determination to follow Mallory’s narrative trajectory, but Arthur, Lancelot, Guenevere, Gawain, and the rest don’t feel like they’re acting because the story needs them to - their established psychologies drive them to make choice predetermined by tradition, but I keep forgetting that because I am persuaded by the characters themselves. Le Guin’s Ged follows a narrative route that’s obvious to anyone who’s heard of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung (or really, even if you haven’t - I hadn’t when I was 12 but I instantly recognized the narrative trajectory of the book), but because it was written from the perspective of “What would Ged do? Why would he? What’s the point to it?” the book’s arc arrives at an inevitable end, but it’s powerfully compelling because Ged “chose” his path rather than having it forced on him by Le Guin.
Put another way, in the 2020(?) documentary on Le Guin, it opens with her giving a talk to aspiring writers at Powell’s Books and she begins by saying something like “There is no set of rules for how to write books. Each book has its own rules that must be followed in order to write it, and the task of writing it is the task of discovering those rules and then following them correctly. Then you must discover the rules for the next book you want to write.”
I love this! I'll have to locate that Le Guin essay. I have a few of them in my Earthsea bind-up. It reminds me of something Merphy, Bookborn and I touched on in our discussion (on Merphy Napier Books) when we said that sometimes authors aren't intentionally writing about a certain theme. Ideas can arise organically while writing. In Le Guin's case, she seemed actively engaged in building cohesion congruent with what she was already inspired to write.
@@Johanna_reads I’m told that Library of America has plans to put out a volume of Le Guin’s non-fiction in the next few years. In the meantime, Language of the Night and Dancing on the Edge of the World are both magnificent essay collections. And there are many interviews available on TH-cam where she often touched upon these principles. I’ve watched dozens of many of them that I can’t keep straight which is which, I just know it’s her ideas in general :)
I don't think I ever really considered that the "Love Triangle" trope doesn't even have to be about the romantic element, but rather the conflict between friends/enemies/etc. When I see it coming in a book I usually groan and think it will be about abs and stuff. But then it rarely becomes that. That is interesting to think about.
"abs and stuff" 🤣 I love when stories open our minds to something more in human conflict. Thanks, Dan!
I always say I hate love triangles, not because I hate the stories that have them but because they give me anxiety haha. I get really invested in romance and always have strong feelings of who I want the character to end up with, so I get super anxious throughout the whole book until I know. Which is why, usually, I can handle them more in fantasy where it's not the center of the plot. If it's a romance book I will NOT read it, but for a fantasy I agree that it can be done in a beautiful way. (The Lions of Al Rassan being a perfect example). The Curse of Chalion by Louis McMaster Bujold kinda sorta has a teensy bit of a love triangle. Kinda. But I don't want to explain more so as not to spoil haha. I love that book! I read it last year and am currently rereading it. (I'm not a big rereader usually, but 2024 seems to be the year for them).
Sounds like love triangles might cause more anxious-torture than hopeful-longing in your case! Haha! The Lions one couldn't be more perfect, right? Someday I'll get to Curse of Chalion! Thank you!
@@Johanna_reads haha yes! that's exactly right! Hopeful longing?? ...I don't know her. 🤣
I enjoy the love triangle trope, but it depends on the book. I really liked the triangle in Darkness that Comes Before.
Glad to hear it, Chas!
I think love triangles got a bad wrap particular from Twilight. Since that was so successful I think there was a lot of “copy paste” to duplicate the success. You’re right though, tropes can be done right. I hate false an accusation tropes, and yet Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite book. If I reflect on why, it’s because I hate the “nobody believes me” trapped feeling. But the author can also leverage that to make a good story.
I agree! Twilight and The Hunger Games, but I also wonder if those series would've been as popular without the triangle. Funny how it can cause longing or eye-rolling, depending on the reader! 😂
There are love triangles and there are luuuv triangles.
I think the issue readers have is when authors try to write romance, and just shouldn't. It when they focus on relationships that they make it work.
Am really curious on your reaction to Emse's arc in Aspect Emperor. I think a lot of people are just turned off by the story and don't appreciate her character.
Agreed on Lions. I think it works because her choice is never a main plot point. It just is. You don't have 'I love Peeta but I also love Gale, oh whatever shall I do?' every 50 pages.
🤣 So true! I'm curious to read on with Esme in Aspect Emperor. Thanks!
I agree with you it depends on the execution of the writer. When i say i hate love triangles mean i hate when it's used to cause drama (usually together with miscommunication) and books aren't the worst offender there. I've seen that more often in movies and tv series. 😂
For adult fantasy, best example of a love triangle done poorly, in my opinion, is Wheel of Time.
Really did not like Jordan's execution with the love triangle with Rand even though i liked the individual characters.
I'm sure there are several atrocious love triangles in movies and TV! 😂
All bumped up my list. Now I'm thinking about this literary tool and I realize the my main WIP is un intentionally headed this way.
Though it's erotica paranormal fantasy, The Black Dagger Brotherhood has Vishus/Jane/Butch. The lines are clearly drawn but the impact is gripping.
I hope you enjoy these if you pick them up! It’s interesting to notice how often it’s used under the radar!
Great video Johanna. Though I want to mention that the way Bakker pronounces Kellhus is similar to Dallas. It does not sound like Kel-hoos.
Oh! Thanks for letting me know!
I typically hate love triangles, but as I thought about it I realized that I'm the co-author on a fan fiction that technically has one, though I'm not sure it counts, as thus far the one who should be conflicted is oblivious enough they aren't aware either of the other points of the triangle are interested in them, so maybe that helps? lmao
There are different variations of love triangles, so I think it could count! 😄
I don’t have the same hate for love triangles others seem to…8 actually quite enjoy them!
So it’s great to see someone else stick up for them 😂
Hooray! 🙌🏼 Thank you, Taylor! ♥️
alright I'm gonna have to pick guns of dawn
Yay! I hope you enjoy it!
That’s an excellent video again. But also has a missed shot. It’s true for any trope. Your video’s base (and true) statement is: “write it well (execution) and we won’t hate it”. Yep, it’s true. Looking at you Twilight 👀 And you too Cassandra Clare and Sarah J Maas. 👀😂 You too 4th Wing…👀 So we are back at the problem. It’s not executed well in the books I’m looking at. In other words: quality matters. In more other words… there is a reason why some people talk like that. Even if it’s a romance book usually the issue is the balance between plot and sub-plot (being the romance any of it). The authors fail to find that balance and so the romance writers plot is shallow and with it everything besides the love interests. But it’s so focused on that becomes obvious what’s going on and also damages the characters identity.
Thank you! The examples you shared are mostly YA fantasy or YA romantasy where love triangles are more celebrated or front-and-center. I've heard several adult fantasy readers (who don't read romantasy or YA) say they don't like love triangles but rarely acknowledge love triangles in adult fantasy. I think these adult fantasy triangles are often camouflaged because they blend with the themes, plot, etc. or support those elements. The triangle doesn't feel like an add-on - though that can happen in adult fantasy as well. I mostly stuck to positive examples!
@@Johanna_reads you are partially right but at the same time one of the reasons why a lot has this prejudice because of these books (and not just in fantasy) not to mention, usually they come in a package deal (toxic person in that relationship, instant love, misrepresenting men or abusive behavior ). Btw: nowadays it’s new adult. In my experience the problem is not with that audience. But the writers. I saw on TikTok that the few authors who took the time to write a seriously crafted piece, are very much welcomed. Btw they call it new adult nowadays. But be it as it may Hunger Games is a YA thing and it is exactly a love triangle.
@@nazimelmardi I agree that the more toxic ones in YA and New Adult are responsible for the love triangle having such a bad reputation. I think it's good to be concerned about that model of relationships, especially when books are marketed toward young readers.
I probably could've unpacked that more, but I'm not well-read in YA and New Adult. It's possible that there are love triangles that work in those categories. I did read one New Adult book: Frankly in Love that addressed a fake dating love triangle. While I didn't like the direction it went in some ways, I appreciated how the author used the triangle to focus on Korean-American intersectionality (Korean-American boy fake-dating Korean girl to please Korean parents while having a secret American girlfriend). The triangle was front-and-center in that story (along with all the other tropes), but I thought it worked to illustrate conflicts between identity, culture, and romance.
That might not be the best example and not my preferred type of story these days, but I share that example because I think it's possible to have less toxic love triangles in YA and New Adult.
🤷♀
Hi 👋 don’t like triangle stories… happy reading to you!! 🎉
Happy reading!
Hello there hey there hey there 😊😊
Hello! :)
Now I have the excuse I need to relisten to The Golem and the Jinni. Is there a 🔺️?
I haven’t read that book, so I’m not sure 🤔
@@Johanna_reads if you have the room for something really unique and both ancient and intensely personal then pick it up. The audiobook is among my favorites.
Greedy bastards. I just want one.😉😅
😂
Love triangles are the woorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrst.
I still love YOU though :)
Hahahaha! But what about Jamie-Cersei-Brienne? What about the one with Aragorn, Eowyn, and Arwen? And what about the brilliant, hilarious one (or variation of one) in Age of Madness?
@@Johanna_reads 🤮
@@Johanna_reads There is no love triangle in LOTR. Aragorn and Arwen are an item. Just because Eowyn is unaware of that fact, it doesn't mean that kindness shown towards her by Aragorn is indicative of romantic interest, even if she sees it as such.
@@Rogue_VI That's true that Aragorn doesn't quite fit the character struggling to choose between two love interests. I felt conflicted though! 😅