Appalling quality Lewmar portlight/windows crumbling on Leopard Catamarans

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 65

  • @GregLuckBrisbane
    @GregLuckBrisbane หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Hi, I have a Bavaria. Last year I pulled out all of my corroded Lewmar windows, talk them back to bare metal with paint remover, primed them and then used a 2 pack paint. There was a lot of corrosion caused by the stainless bolts. I applied tefgel and new bolts. So far so good. The black painted Lewmar windows do not last. Make sure you use Tefgel or Duralac on your bolts when you get your replacements.

  • @Boody523
    @Boody523 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you for doing this, and fighting the good fight. 2023 L42

  • @worddunlap
    @worddunlap หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    It's also the particular alloy of aluminum. Entire hulls are made from AL That is a crappy grade on that Leopard.

    • @graemerichardson4825
      @graemerichardson4825 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Thats not accurate. Hulls are made from rolled sheet or plate most common!y in a 5000 series grade (not able to be cosmetically anodised). The port lights are made from extruded aluminium (6000 series alloy) more suited to cosmetic anodising like your window frames at home.

  • @ianlowe4846
    @ianlowe4846 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The key difference between powder-coating and anodizing is that Powder-coating is a surface finish and anodizing is a penetrating finish. Powder-coating ideally should be between 60 and 100 microns thick. Anodizing would be 15 microns for inland and 30 microns penetrative thickness for coastal regions. Being a professional in the field of metal finishing specializing in aluminium finishing I would comfortably state that Powder-coating if done correctly would be far far superior for a coastal application than anodizing. Emphasis on "if done correctly".
    At this point I apologize for the novel to follow but the answer is not short because there are many many process's that have to be followed to successfully powder-coat aluminium, especially in a coastal environment.
    The standard to follow for Powder-coating is the European "Qualicoat" mark for powder-coating. The powder-coating factories that I have owned, run or designed all carried this mark which was accompanied year 15-year guarantee from the powder suppliers.
    There are two critical areas when powder-coating, that being the preparation of the surface and the baking of the powder in an oven. Get either wrong and you will have a failure.
    Surface Preparation - Aluminium goes through a 9 or 7 stage chemical bath process depending on whether you have a combined de-grease etch bath or separate baths, I prefer separate. De-grease, Etch, rinse, Nitric Acid, Chromate, rinse and de-mineralising. All these tanks have a temperature range, dosing range, Ph range, Micro-seaman range to name a few issues for them to operate properly. EG de-grease must be 60 degreas +-5 or micro-seaman's in last tank of less than 120, drinking water is 360. To manage this you require a full laboratory with a technician doing samples and tests hourly. The lab also does quality control, as an example every batch through the pre-treatment baths is accompanied by a test panel, all is recorded. That panel gets baked with its batch and then the panel is subjected to tests before any finished goods leave the factory. In addition random panels are sent to Qualicoat for testing, one being a 1500 hour acetic acid spray test, this simulates 15 years in real time. A cross is inscribed into the panel. exposing the aluminium, if after the test the corrosion exceeds 1mm either side of the scratch, its a failure.
    Similarly the baking process is critical, for an exterior powder, 15mins @ 200 deg c, every batch in the oven is accompanied by a oven recorder with probes attached to the goods at different heights and places in the oven, even temperature throught-out being critical.
    Before I get onto the possible reasons for these failures I will give you an example, I have powder-coated the aluminium windows on a hotel that is built on a peer over the sea. I did this contract almost 30 years ago and the powder-coating has not corroded.
    What you see on these windows is a complete failure of both the surface finish and the powder-coating or there has been Bi-Metalic corrosion between the Aluminium and the fixing screws/bolts. In my learned experience what you seeing here is a combination of both these scenarios because all the corrosion seams to be concentrated around fixings.
    1. If the Surface preparation had been done correctly the corrosion should not creep further than 1mm. It is the accepted norm to drill aluminium after powder-coating. In my example, all the windows on this hotel were cut, drilled and assembled after powder-coating, yet there is no corrosion.
    2. The corrosion shown here is extreme and points to Bi-Metalic corrosion exacerbated by poor surface treatment or visa-vesa.
    3. The way you show the pieces and "dust" of powder-coating points to 2 things. the first being the baking process. Under-baked powder-coating breaks like this. The common mistake non-qualicoat powder-coater's make is the difference between air temperature and metal temperature in the oven. Most have probes measuring air temperature when you need 200 Deg c metal temperature to cure correctly.
    The second possibilty requires a paragraph of its own. The type of powder used is also critical. You get two types of powder, Epoxy Polyester powder which is not UV stable and only suitable for interior use and Polyester Powders for exterior use. Epoxy polyesters will crumble in time when exposed to UV. Polyester powders come in 2 form, those that are guaranteed and those that are not.
    I notice the dull white hazy film on the powder, this indicates its not a guaranteed powder. This fading and dulling would not exceed 10 % over 15 years if a guaranteed powder was used.
    The last possibility for this would only influence the Surface preparation. The type of aluminium is critical to the pre-treatment. Are these frames cast aluminium or extruded aluminium. Cast aluminium is not as pure as extruded aluminium and contains high concentrations of other metals primarily zinc in the case of aluminium castings. You cannot successfully powdercoat aluminium castings because the Etch process draws the zinc to the surface and the chrome does not adhere to it successfully. The way the flake looks and the way the windows paint looks point in this direction, without closer inspection. I am familiar with alumiunium bending as well and it is difficult to bend an complex aluminium profile through 90 deg successfully without distorting the profile shape. It is possible to do with very complex bending process's and madrials but I doubt scale of economies would warrant that expenditure for a limited market.
    Lastly in respect of powder-coating and example to tie all the above together to make your own conclusion on what you see. In the beginning I stated that both surface preparation and baking where important, well they can operate independently of each other. The pre-treatment tanks do 2 things (1) treat the aluminium from corrosion and (2) create a key for the powdercoating to stick to.
    You can heat up a bottle to 150 deg c and melt powder straight onto the bottle, then bake it properly and the powder will cure properly. But here is the key, there is no pre-treatment to the glass. You can now drop a stone into the bottle and shake it around till you break up the glass. Now pour the broken glass out and if you cured it properly you will have the shape of the bottle but the glass is gone.
    1. No pre-treatment then the powder just cures on the glass but does not bond to it.
    2. The powder was cured properly so it retained the shape of the bottle and did not fall apart. Powder-coating will cure on anything but whether it bonds or not depends on the pre-treatment.
    After that novel and the last example the source of the problem should be clear on closer inspection.
    Finally in respect of anodizing and to save you another novel, go ask any anodizer if they will guarantee their finish for 15-years, you will be wasting your time, you will find none, they know the limits of their product.
    Ps. Your light fittings are cast, they would not be anodized, castings similarly cannot be anodized for the same reason as powder-coating. If you took a sharp knife and scracthed one you would see its a surface finish. There are other baking process's other than powder-coatong.

  • @SoniaBalfour
    @SoniaBalfour หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Aluminium boat owner here, the best solution would be to use titanium set screws in powder coated frames,failing that always coat stainless threads with Duralac/zinc chromate and use a nylon washer to separate the metals,even with countersunk set screws .use white spirit for clean up after.
    The problem is galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals,even anodised metals will corrode if not treated in the way i described

    • @graemerichardson4825
      @graemerichardson4825 หลายเดือนก่อน

      The Lewmar screws are correctly isolated from factory assembly

    • @SoniaBalfour
      @SoniaBalfour หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@graemerichardson4825 re watched the video,although corrosion is evident around the screw holes inside,the outer frames should not have corroded so rapidly.
      I would guess that a very poor quality alloy has been used and the alloy has not been etched correctly before coating,resulting in a surface that was already oxidising when powder coating was applied.
      best bet is to replace with Gebo or the lewmar ocean series of quality anodised ports ,use a router with a bearing on the bit and a jig to guide the cutter bearing for cutting the new apertures if replacing insitu.
      alternatvely fabricate the frames in lazer cut stainless profiles sandwich together and reuse hinges ,clamps and portlight.

    • @simonpickering2665
      @simonpickering2665 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This is not a Leopard problem. -it is a Lewmar problem and is happening on all boats using Lewmar port lights - also the warranty is Lewmars to honor - read your contracts

    • @claverton
      @claverton หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@simonpickering2665 Strongly disagree ... it was Leopard's decision to choose and supply those particular portlights so it is Leopard's problem.

    • @graemerichardson4825
      @graemerichardson4825 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@SoniaBalfour your assumption of “very poor quality aluminium” is misguided. Poor quality 6000 series Aluminium alloys will not extrude into complex thin section shapes. Etching process issues are a more likely cause as you have correctly stated.

  • @jorgenvanseters-dz2nm
    @jorgenvanseters-dz2nm หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    The Lewmar windows are also on Lagoons. Mine is 5 years old, half the windows have that issue. I used a tungsten scraper to remove the paint flakes, then sanded the area that had issues, painted with a special alluminium paint undercoat, and had the windows plastic wrapped like a car. A year after they still look like brand new. A port hole will take about 30 min to scrape and sand, and 10 min to paint with undercoat by brush. It’s not a Leopard issue, all Lewmar windows have had this problem for as long as I had boats, 30years!

    • @spicypeteinthailand8732
      @spicypeteinthailand8732 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Who chose to use those windows and continues to choose to use those windows? Leopard! So it most certainly is a Leopard issue.

  • @bobackley451
    @bobackley451 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It's also a issue on Fountaine-Pajot catamarans, I just refinished a couple of our windows on a Lucia 40 and will have to do some work on the others, soon.

  • @capnbilll2913
    @capnbilll2913 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    How about installing biodegradable foam insulation under the decks and in the engine rooms. It turns to crumbling goo in 5 years.

    • @svthorasailing4868
      @svthorasailing4868 หลายเดือนก่อน

      lol got in one bio degradable,breaks down from the oxygen in the atmosphere.Yeet.

  • @jonunya3128
    @jonunya3128 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I'd bet thatLeopard didn't spec the windows be anodized. Lemar provided what was ordered.

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Order from Lewmar directly an this is exactly what you get - and for an abhorrent price. Do a bit of research next time… 🙄

    • @jonunya3128
      @jonunya3128 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@spaRTan3246 glad we agree!

  • @masonave4543
    @masonave4543 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    GDay Mate
    A suggestion, with the Annapolis Boat Show coming up, for that matter any boat show that show cases Leopard, get a few mates to look see and then put orders in. Then later cancel the order. When asked why, say custom service is shocking from Cape Town. Pretty certain over some time management/share holders will start asking questions.

    • @dagragnarklstad2400
      @dagragnarklstad2400 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Cancelling an order normally comes with a cost

    • @masonave4543
      @masonave4543 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@dagragnarklstad2400 Could you elaborate? Please Thanks

    • @dagragnarklstad2400
      @dagragnarklstad2400 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@masonave4543 Well, if you buy something worth usd700000, you will most of the time sign a contract. To be released from the contract normally costs you a percentage of the total value. This number tend to increase as you approach the delivery date.

  • @ToddPoppleton
    @ToddPoppleton หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    It is the same problem for the portlights and powder-coated clamp from the headlights: dissimilar metals in a corosive environment. I'd bet that there was no product such as Tef-Gel used when the stainless fasteners were installed in the aluminum frames to reduce the chances of galvanic action, so as soon as salt water was introduced corrosion began in the threads (where there is no powder coating) and the aluminum oxide propagated beneath the paint causing it to further flake off. Anodising is more resistant to this, but certainly not immune to the process. Leopard isn't going to disassemble, strip the powdercoat, prep, anodise, and reassemble stock Lewmar product because that would void any warranty from or liability of Lewmar. The catch twenty-two is that Lewmar will also deny responsibility because of Leopard's substandard installation of their product by not using a galvanic corrosion inhibitor. I wonder what their installation instructions specify?
    I'd try to deal with Lewmar directly to see if they will give you a good deal on replacement portlights and take on installing them yourself. You could then send Leopard the bill, or just be happy that you're better off with out having to deal with them.

    • @BigBadLoneWolf
      @BigBadLoneWolf หลายเดือนก่อน

      The headlight clamps had rubber between the stainless tube and the clamp, so that would isolate the clamp from any galvanic corrosion

    • @ToddPoppleton
      @ToddPoppleton หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@BigBadLoneWolf The stainless of the rail that the clamp was gripping wasn't the issue... the stainless of the cap screw that tightened it was the culprit and once corrosion starts it spreads quickly under powder coat.

  • @cle_roknn3742
    @cle_roknn3742 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Part of that may be the quality of the powder coating process with voids or cracks letting in water. But my guess is sunlight degradation that degraded the coating and the coating failed...

    • @graemerichardson4825
      @graemerichardson4825 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      The issue is fundamentally powder coatng is porous and unsuitable for most marine applications. Secondary is that the chromating has not sufficiently been cleaned prior to coating leading to poor adhesion and accelerated corrosion

  • @viviennebowden6228
    @viviennebowden6228 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I guess first prize would be to try and maintain a good relationship with Leopard because you will be needing parts ad infinitum.....will test your patience to the extreme!😮

  • @maxx9384
    @maxx9384 หลายเดือนก่อน

    To all the guys that claim Leopard Catamarans are crap. I disagree. I LOVE their layout and, in general, the build quality is fair. I say this with a Transatlantic/Equator crossing trip under the belt. It is the utterly stupid warranty department/procedures that stain the reputation. Why in the world do I have to go through a middleman (Leopard) to communicate with R&C if not to discourage owners from filing? In my opinion they should set the proper procedure up like insurance companies: have a network of approved surveyors and let them inspect warranty claims worldwide. Once they sent their reports, pay for it. Today's "procedure" is to make it complicated if not impossible to get fully reimbursed. I know, because I am still struggling to get my money back.

  • @JusticeMbera
    @JusticeMbera หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    These guys of Leopard Cape town are annoying and for me it really shows that they do not have their clients at heart with clumsy work.

  • @jean-pierredeclemy7032
    @jean-pierredeclemy7032 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Ask Lewmar to supply silver anodised aluminium windows under warranty then get them anodised black by an independent so they will last.

  • @paul-br2fs
    @paul-br2fs หลายเดือนก่อน

    There is a very good reason to replace the faulty windows with faulty windows it means after warrantee your buying faulty windows for ever its all about profit , the only way to break the cycle is strip and treat properly yourself after the cover period because its a modification so you will break cover .

  • @trentspencer7991
    @trentspencer7991 หลายเดือนก่อน

    They sent my replacement side windows without the holes cut out. They were about to cut the holes and I was like NOOOOOOOOO thank you. Anodize them, mine all corroded as well, how does this get to here? Like you say it is absurd. They cut the holes after they cut the windows. Get a different port light brand and cut a different hole or order them unfinished and in house anodize them.

  • @markloubser2433
    @markloubser2433 หลายเดือนก่อน

    you cant simply de-powdercoat a frame and then annodise it. Port light must be manufactured from anodised section and screws tefgelled during installation.

  • @R.E.HILL_
    @R.E.HILL_ หลายเดือนก่อน

    Nice one.. remember to always look at the lens not the lcd viewfinder.. makes you look blind otherwise.. besides you're supposed to be talking to your viewers and not yourself, right? 😉🙂

  • @Jeremy-mu1tj
    @Jeremy-mu1tj หลายเดือนก่อน

    Ran a 58 a few years ago, boat started to fall apart after 5000 nm, windows falling out, under gauged third world wiring... run

  • @timevans8223
    @timevans8223 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The best protection for new aluminium is anodising, then powder coating. Mild steel has no place on a boat

  • @t-hex6876
    @t-hex6876 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    The Leopard catamaran company is the worst. So many complaints from unhappy Leopard owners. Probably why I’m seeing a lot of used Leopard cats recently being put up for sale. They know their poor reputation is growing and want to dump their cat before the value drops any more.

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Saying you have no clue without saying you have no clue… 🤦‍♂️

  • @rickpyne
    @rickpyne หลายเดือนก่อน

    How long before these corroded Portlights become a safety problem?

    • @simonpickering2665
      @simonpickering2665 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Probably never

    • @jean-pierredeclemy7032
      @jean-pierredeclemy7032 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Why don't airplanes have square windows? Because corners hate stress. These windows are inherently unsafe.

  • @larrybuzan7687
    @larrybuzan7687 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    It comes down to money it’s cheaper to paint

  • @wayneanderson1641
    @wayneanderson1641 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I don't understand why anyone would be dumb enough to buy a new leopard😮

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Because they can and don‘t have to resort to the comments section… 🤗

  • @STRUTZKOFF
    @STRUTZKOFF หลายเดือนก่อน

    Just dont get salt water on them !

  • @chrisstephen4563
    @chrisstephen4563 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I thought Leopards were fairly good boats. Not after seeing this. What other crap have they put on them ?

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Lewmar is the de facto standard. What do you have on your boat? 🤨

  • @jimdiamond8246
    @jimdiamond8246 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    If I was in your position I would sell that lemon and those boats are worse than the lagoons. There are far better built boats out there .even hh have big issues.

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Looks like your only source of information is YT videos. Go out, sail a few boats and come back with at least a bit of knowledge. 😉

  • @janezkovac6692
    @janezkovac6692 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Buy Bering cat.......

  • @w4vp9kf
    @w4vp9kf หลายเดือนก่อน

    Are you ABSOLUTELY sure these aren't knock-off 'Lewmars'???? Never seen them not anodised and always in fantastic condition. Something is seriously wrong! Powder coating should never be used on a boat in the same way that chrome shouldn't be.

    • @jean-pierredeclemy7032
      @jean-pierredeclemy7032 หลายเดือนก่อน

      As long ago as when they made the Trimline hatches in the last century, silver was anodised, but colours were painted, it even states that in the specifications.

    • @maxx9384
      @maxx9384 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I had them on my previous Bavaria 46, too. Same shit, same corrosion. It is a Lewmar issue. BUT R&C would have the bulk buyer leverage to force to change the quality... yet, nothing.

  • @Skippernick1957
    @Skippernick1957 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What a heap of crap

  • @MarchTwentyfour-t8z
    @MarchTwentyfour-t8z หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I feel sorry leapord owners who bought a few years ago. Anyone who has bought recently did not do their homework.
    Leapards are a known disaster, stay away!

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Having sailed Leopards, Lagoons, FPs and a few more production cats I can tell you haven‘t… ☺️

    • @MarchTwentyfour-t8z
      @MarchTwentyfour-t8z หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@spaRTan3246 I think your crystal ball is past it's used by date.
      But thanks for the deep thought you put into that 😀

  • @yk10yk
    @yk10yk หลายเดือนก่อน

    Lewmar is cheap crap

    • @claverton
      @claverton หลายเดือนก่อน

      That's not actually true. Their Ocean Hatch type hatches are top shelf and they're not cheap either.

    • @spaRTan3246
      @spaRTan3246 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Nothing is cheap when choosing Lewmar - but the quality is far below expectations… 🫣

    • @claverton
      @claverton หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@spaRTan3246 sorry but that's total crap as far as their Ocean Hatches are concerned. They are a first class hatch for blue water

  • @ThePatgilbert
    @ThePatgilbert หลายเดือนก่อน

    What u expect made in britain! Only rolls royce and the older perkins engine u can trust ,the rest well we the sailors ,have spend in past a fortune on made in britain ,and failure follows up ,remember Cetrek? Autohelm,etc etc etc