Why 'Pay to Win' can be good
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2024
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IMPORTANT: this is a devils advocate video where I argue in favour of a system i strongly disagree with, the points presented are designed to help understand the arguments p2w systems make, not to agree with those points.
I dislike pay to win in MMO games.
I feel it brings real world wealth inequality into the virtual world, which isn't fun.
However, I value fair debate and remaining objective.
So, in this video I will argue in favor of a system I subjectively disagree with and present the arguments for it, in good faith and as genuinely as I can.
also I will use my dog as emotional manipulation.
Thanks to the Patreon supporters and Twitch subs for keeping the channel going! - บันเทิง
![How the MMO became less social - [MMOPINION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EUFX50Nti9g/mqdefault.jpg)
![How the MMO became less social - [MMOPINION]](/img/tr.png)
For me the satisfying part of an MMO is the sense of progression, any game that has pay to win undermines this core pillar of the MMORPG, Even when you're at the point where you can afford to pay to win, doing so doesn't feel good, you feel like you've cheated. The fact that in Albion, Runescape, BDO and WoW you can buy gold via the cash shop completely ruins the whole money making side of those games for me because I think to myself, why spend 30 hours grinding gold when I can work for 1 hour? Whereas if p2w isn't an option everything you do gives you a sense of progression, it doesn't make sense to design MMOs around people who don't have time to play MMOs because it ruins the game for the people who do have time.
Absolutely agree with you.
Which is why, for me, runescape ironman is the only way to play it
@thelazypeon isn't this a you problem then instead of an us problem? If you would rather work for 1 hour to not grind 30 hours, then that's your choice. But it's also your choice to grind 30 hours instead of working 1 hour. YOu don't have to p2w. You can still grind. Why would it ruin it for you if someone can boost to lvl 80 that took you 3 months? Why would it devalue the fun you've had in those 3 months? Your amount of fun should not be dependent on someone elses misery
@@TideasOfficial because that is a slippery slope to catering to those players and designing flaws to sell the solution.
There is a middle ground where the p2w is more of a pay to save time such as XP boosts with a level cap. When it comes to gold purchases it is a bit unfair, but players will eventually create their own black market.
We broke Josh. We made him review isekai waifu and now he's saying pay to win is good.
Most accurate comment here
Y'know maybe we shouldn't have...
**Can** be good if made properly
CAN be good
Dangit, where did we put that Josh Strife Hayes manual? I told you all we should have taken the extend warranty but noooooooooo, you just had to save money didn't you?
The thing is, a lot of the time it's not "rich guy wins, poor guy loses", it's "guy with no self-control wins, guy with lots of self-control loses", these systems are too predatory to ever be a positive. When you have people taking out loans and stealing from family just to feed the habit, it's just terrible.
@Nabellion It's winning in their eyes
yea, F2P cash shops pray on people who have the same type of addiction as gamblers.
Sounds like the guy with lots of self-control wins because he can sleep soundly without crushing dept lol
@@skarjj1 I mean, it literally is gambling. Except even worse, since you don't actually get anything of monetary value.
Those are extreme cases and there are ways that can be preventative. For example, WoW tokens have a purchase limit per month. This likely due to Blizzard not wanting people to crash the economy (further than it already is), but regardless. Limits can be set.
I would be more than happy to see an age restriction to these games monetization, but otherwise I don't see this as a compelling argument to get rid of them all together.
I like that the first argument boiled down to, "The most efficient way to play a game is to not play it and get a job instead."
What if, because of the world we live in, you already have a job you have to spend X hours doing? That's when the argument makes more sense.
runescape in a nutshell...
This argument makes no sense, because time and money aren’t traded equally for everyone. Some people make $10 an hour, and some people hardly work and make $10k a day
More like: "The most efficient way to get to the point where your friends are and have fun in the game is to spend a little of the money you made working all day". The world is not as simple as your mind wants it to be.
The "emotional manipulation segment" was pure gold.
and also very incorrect, as the solution isn't to "pay to catch up", is making developers balance the game around free players... which they would never do, because then there is no reason to pay.
@@billionai4871 That completely misses the point though? If it was made possible for him to catch up with half the time, then why would anybody go the long route? Like he said, people put efficiency on the highest pedestal, they're not going to waste time when they could achieve the same results in far less time. Like, what the hell type of solution do you have? How will he NOT pay while still getting everything the people who put in far more time do- is he just being given everything for free. If he isn't, then why wouldn't every one else do the same thing? What your saying literally makes no sense, no matter how you look at it, less time means less reward, there should be no way for him to get more without putting in as much time as his friends because that'd be unbalanced all on its own.
I don't like pay to win very much either, but you've completely missed the point and countered with something that makes absolutely no sense.
@@billionai4871 Welcome to missing the point.
As a wise man once said "create the problem, sell the solution"
That man was Steve Jobs right before his ghost announced the iPhone 6
Democrats have been doing that since forever
It's literally 90% of the video: create the problem, sell the solution. The reality is, if YOU can buy a boost to catch up with your friends, SO CAN THEY. They've already paid to skip all the boring content you want to also skip. You will NEVER catch up, unless you can literally pay to win.
But like... The line is really blurred then it comes to "creating" problems. Is grinding a "created" problem, or is it the nature of mmos? Obviously it can be excessive, like in BDO, but not always right. Its very individual.
@@Adol666 What a weird comment. You sure you're not stuck in some kind of strange in-game world, mate?
Counter point: This also causes some players to reach a condition where they feel compelled to both spend AND grind countless hours just to stay competitive. In reality instead of a choice between spending time OR money, it becomes a requirement to spend both.
Hey I was looking for your comment, someone else had to have thought of this before me :P
That's been the state of Perfect World International for the past 5 years.
Every point he brought had its counterpoints. And the summary he did at the end left out lot of the BS he throwed around during the vid.
The entire speil about free players being worthless was stupid. Nonpaying players are creating large population for your game. That allows for waiting times to be low. For matchmaking able to find players more balanced towards your level etc. Without them paying players would leave as was shown again and again and again because low playerbase is deathsentence for multiplayer games.
Same thing with hobby shops where you can play games. If you would allow only players who spend money there to play there, those paying players would stop visiting that shop pretty quickly. Without their friends and without lot of other random people to play around with, they would simply stop coming. If you would come up with rule that anyone who wants to play there must buy something, it would end with problems too. Either shop would try to make profit by increasing their prices to take advantage of their own rule, or they would decrease the quality of their products, again to make profit. Because any shop that would come up with such rule would have this kind of mentality. Also on other note these hobby shops (at least where I live) can easily reach the criteria of social center and get subsidies from goverment.
Or the argument about paying for week of intensive training - Firstly that has huge ties to social disparsity. Poor guy (assuming he has equal skill) will not be able to learn playing on instrument better then rich guy who can throw truckloads of money on best equipment and instruments. Real life is pay to win as heck. That was really bad example from him. Other thing is, that I personaly would really be unhappy if some guy who had no time to train tried to play his instrument in my presence. Had neighbour who trained once a week for hour. With open window. On trumpet. It was misserable for all around.
And the idea of devs giving you oportunity between paying or grinding goes to toilet the moment you remember all those games where devs intentionaly created game mechanics to push you as much into paying as possible. Where by adding pay to win features, they also added features that throw obstacles on players who tried to play without spending any money. To make free part of the game as much joyless as they could to convince you to either pay or stop playing.
The true p2w games have no upper limit to how much you can spend
@@falloutboyisitachi 5? more like 15.
The "do you want to spend 10 Dollars or spend 10 hours" question is completely disregarding the core problem with many of these games. The question you need to be asking is "Why does it take 10 hours" and the answer will often be "Because the developers don't want you to actually do that, they just want your 10 dollars." When you have a p2w cash shop, as a developer, you automatically have an incentive to create problems only to sell solutions, instead of making a game actually worth playing.
I know what you mean. When microtransactions get added, they tend to alter the balance of the game to push players to purchase them. For instance, experience gain gets nerfed to incentivize buying the items to level up faster. Instead of being a convenience for people short on time, its twisting people's arms to pay up.
This is why I'm okay with systems like the one found in Planetside 2. The only thing mechanically you can really pay for is an increase in XP gain. You can also pay to unlock weapons, but PS2's weapons are specifically designed such that there are no unlockable "upgrades," only sidegrades. All of the weapons are more-or-less equal, just balanced towards a different playstyle, and most of the community agrees that the default weapons are all totally serviceable, and in fact a lot of the veterans still use them even though they've unlocked other weapons. Plus, once you get higher in rank and get better at the game, it usually only takes a few hours of playtime to earn enough certs to unlock most of the cheaper weapons anyway, and even the most expensive ones can be had with a good day's worth of just playing a FPS.
The argument you just made is the same one I make when people measure games in the amount of time they spent playing them. Just because you spent 60 hours on a game doesn't make it worth more than 10$, it depends on the enjoyment you got from the game
To some, such a grind IS fun. Why do you think older Eastern RPG's were so popular despite grinds that make modern MMO's look reasonable?
To be fair without bots it used to be spend 10 dollars or spend 5 hours.
Free-To-Play players aren't leeches, they're CONTENT for the paying players. Nobody wants to play a game with an empty server, you let in as many free players as you can to keep servers full.
Correct
Why can't they be both leeches and content?
@@JBrandonMercer123 For same reason why it would not make sense to get free lunch and then be expected to pay for it.
@@iglidor you're not expected to pay for it, "someone" is. Schools often have optional recurring fees that can be waived by poor families that are used to find extracurricular activies, like museum visits or a holiday breakfast or somesuch. This meant that everyone could participate, regardless of their family's wealth, and made equality in school ever so slightly better.
@@JBrandonMercer123 Because the game is free. You can't just give something out for free then call them leeches.
Never thought I would feel mug envy, but here we are
Honestly though.
I feel mug envy w I watch his channel a lot l
([POW] right in the kisser
What about name envy?
I haven't cause if I really cared enough about fucking mugs then I would've bought one
When it comes to free to play games with money transactions it only bugs me if they badger me, annoy me, or find way to force me to pay. If they don't do that, I'm more likely to pay. Especially if I've played the game for a week and enjoyed it. I recently went back to playing Entropia Universe. After a week I bought a starter pack just for the heck of it. It gave me a vehicle, a rifle, armor, ammo, and some skill consumables.
Friendly advice: I've listened to significant audio volume differences between videos and segments within a video. It is a little bit annoying, I would suggest normalizing all the audio and maybe filtering segments if you want a different scope or sensation. Thank you so much for your amazing content!
Wtf bro, grow up, "really annoying" it's barely noticeable
@@Lrizu They're just trynna help improve the quality of videos! I think Josh took the tip cus later videos don't have this problem :)
@@misspoppyp as i said, it's not really a problem, it's barely noticeable, he's just bitching
@@Lrizu got so vexxed over someone kindly pointing out something they find bothering
@@Lrizu dude literally started with "friendly advice" and you told him to grow up xD i think you need to grow up in this situation
Me seeing the title: "you were supposed to destroy the sith, not join them!"
This video was sponsored by Amazon™
You do know that the slackers who play mmo's are the reason our society is crashing, right?
I thought "What kind of sorcery is this?!"
@@youareacoward8459 Sure buddy, it's not progressive politics, feminism, exaggerated individualism and egocentrism, multiculturalism and a desperate search for meaning in our lives, it's MMO's. Buzz off.
@@user-et8vm9cc3t That too, so you saying that 100 000 people that does not work because they want to play mmos is NOT a problem, BUZZ OFF! PUNK!
JSH was so depressed after the last video that he needed a makeover to recover.
what's wrong with the last video?
@@JRGamer-ul1mh did you watch the last video (demon something waifu?)
Far easier for you to watch than for me to explain.
@@justinwhite2725 no what happened I wouldn't get it if I watched it.
@@justinwhite2725 sigh ok
@@JRGamer-ul1mh ._. wut
Josh: Good faith argument in favour of P2W
Also Josh: Emotionally manipulates with floof ball
4:57 The argument is very flawed. If you actually enjoy playing the game. And you decide to spend the 10 hours to grind the item instead of buying it, Your actually getting more value for your time. Because your getting a good item, and your enjoying your time in game.
yea I agree, the argument feels like "time spent in game, playing the game, is wasted" at which point why even spend money on something you consider a waste of time
It’s the argument that MMO players are always optimizing the time spent vs gains, that it is actually better to just work for a real job irl, then spent the money earned in that job for the game you’re playing. He made a video explaining it (I think it’s titled “how P2W ruins gameplay experiences). The argument he had there was if a sword costs $5 irl money or 1000 gold in-game currency; you can just grind two hours for 1000 gold, or you can go and work an irl job for an hour and get $5 of irl wages (which you then spend to get said sword) and then use the remaining one hour to go grind something else. You just saved yourself an hour of playtime there, that you can use for anything else other than the sword.
Now, the argument here in this video is for people that just doesn’t have time to play the game, and this just had to resort to P2W just to catch up with their friends. You can’t tell a guy to just keep grinding hours upon hours per day while still telling him to stop neglecting his partner, family, job or other commitments in life, it’s one or the other. In this situation, the only way the guy can still play with his hardcore “grind all day” friends is to P2W his way into their ranks again.
my issue with p2w is that developers and publishers are not shy of tweaking game mechanics to make artifical inconveniences to get you to buy stuff.
I have no issue supporting devs I like but theres a difference between supporting a game that I enjoy playing and between the game strong-arming me to buy stuff or else my experience will be unbearable.
And thats why P2W sucks, because more often than not, it means building the game around a predatory/ abusive business model and not the business model around the game.
Its the equivalent of breaking football players leg before a match and graciously offering the remedy for what they caused themselves, at the right price of course.
Also no offence but saying that buying IAP helps finding development feels woefully naive, considering how CEO-s such as Bobby Stick end up with multimillion bonuses and they essentially moved all their ressources to work on Call of Duty, which includes the F2P Warzone.
Maybe in an ideal world, the revenue would serve to be tossed back into the development of the game but unless you believe in fairy tales...
p2w is fine in rpg's and mmo's in my opinion, if the devs dont do it, the black market takes over, every mmo has one where you can buy max level characters, weapons, armor, items, gold, even in games like Albion Online you can pay to win the season. P2W is always going to exist, it just needs to be managed so its not broken, i.e. specific op weapons and armor from marketplace only, but if you want to just buy your stuff i don't see a problem as long as you dont get an advantage over a player that has farmed the item. I think once black markets are completely removed then devs should stop, but while it goes on then the dev's should take full advantage.
@@shroomiestshroom3655 Two wrongs dont make one right though, thats the thing.
@@Fabrysiheder I actually think he has a good point. Micro transactions came to be because in early MMOs people did pay on the black market. This created an imbalance where the company gets no money from this extra revenue, but the game still feels unfair and broken because people are ptw. So now the game has to shut down because the company made no money and no one is having fun playing because other players are paying for unfair advantages.
@@shroomiestshroom3655 Yes but is it okay for a company to start making the game worse just to sell you microtransactions? Because that’s pretty much the direction we are going with this. Removal of basic features that you can buy from the cash shop.
@@shroomiestshroom3655 That is a horrible argument. So instead of the devs trying to activly work against those blackmarkets they become the sellers themself instead. Would be like just because some peoples do heroin irl then goverments should make it legal and let legit companies advertise and sell it as a good thing for society. And it is not like the blackmarkets will go away because the peoples in charge makes it legal and start selling it themself. Quite the opposit they will just push their prices down to get customers and the problem gets worse than it was before. Since now you have the actual peoples in charge also advertising for the goldsellers. And the game become pointless to play without paying because prices are so low and the general knowledge of said activity is pushed in your face everytime you loggin with advertisement. Devs shot themself in the foot.
Appeal to Puppy. Best new fallacy. I approve.
Argumentum ad doggo 🐶
One thing missed is that for many games, free players do keep the lights on. Shareholders and investors provide money often based on user counts, which is a big metric indicating the size of the player base which can actively be marketed to. So just playing the game in any way does provide income for the company running the game in a pretty direct fashion.
It's admirable to play devil's advocate. Huge respect for this video.
"A game should make me WANT to waste my time, and not just WASTE my time" - Asmongold, 2021
Ah Asmongold...the guy that plays WoW and refuses to play anything else because "its not the same dood".
@@mrlionX Some day he will play FF14. He keeps watching all these videos on it, saying how good it looks, then his chat acts up and he starts calling it weeb shit.
Didn't Josh say this first?
@@PubstarHero I actually almost pity him. He's so clearly standing outside of the proverbial window, desperately wanting to go in, but every time he tries, his fanbase starts reeeing and throwing a temper tantrum, and he backs off.
But he cultivated that fanbase, and values their money over his self respect.
@@TheDapperDragon Well eventually he is going to die with WoW.
Shame. He could probably come over and do some good colab with some FF14 streamers - I mean even Zepla is offering to play with him.
But you're right, the toxic fanbase is his own.
it's so hard not to go "but that's a problem the game devs made to sell you the solution" but i think it's something you know better than most since it's a very mmorpg thing
There's something free players give to the game, and it is their presence in the world to make it look more lively to the paying customers
As well as being the backbone of the in-game economy.
freeloaders aren't a great presence anywhere.
@@konev13thebeast they aren't freeloaders, they are just playing their limited free version of the game. Take EVE Online for example, there's several communities catered specifically to free accounts.
On top of that, if the game allows for it, free players might actually be able to get the paid version of the game for in-game money which they farm, and sell to paying players
@@naurbrannon and in what way do those help contribute to the server resources they're using?
I feel like this video aged very well with Lost Ark being such a hot topic at the moment. I guess what I value most about games like old school runescape is that, even though the OSRS bond system is fundamentally pay to win, there are so many achievements that are earned in game that cannot simply be bought. The fire or quest cape is a great example of this. You need to dedicate the time and effort/skill to achieve these things and everyone in the game instantly knows and respects what these items symbolize. Whereas with Lost Ark or BDO, it just feels like you can cheaply buy your way to the top. That being said, to defeat certain bosses in Lost Ark - especially with the release of legion commander raids coming soon to NA/EU release - it still takes an incredible amount of game knowledge and skill. Yes you can overgear by whaling but it will only take you so far. You will still lose if you don't have skill, no matter how much you whale.
Wail*
Josh trying to rationalize the $700 total to plus +20 all your gear via jewels for sale in RoM rn 😂😂😂
dude that's nothing i spend more then that on other games, my life time of pay to win i don't even want think about it. Plus other response why should you care how much he or she spends its not your money, its their money
@@kyotheman69 @kyotheman69 lmao I totally understand the "I don't want to think about it" sentiment as someone who spends money from time to time but refuses to do the math on how much I spent total. But I'm not sure what you mean by why I should care, I do not care what other people do with their money. I was making a joke that Josh is trying to make that amount make sense (because it doesn't, that's the cost of 4 years subscription to WoW at the most expensive subscription option.) Did you buy those jewels and are feeling upset about my joke because I laid out the actual dollar amount? 😜
@@eveemcghee4454 lmao
RoM is still alive?
@@jovee6155 as alive as it's gonna get, I think lol based on the likes of this comment, at least 117 ppl still play across, what, 10 servers? Lmao
Honestly as someone with terrible ADHD I don't mind dropping a small amount of cash for some items, what bothers me is when games demand so much money out of you just to be FUN, not efficient, FUN.
You must love BDO then 💀
Didn't you hear point one though? It's a choice! You can either choose to play the game and not have fun, or PAY the game and have fun. It's all about player choice! Choice choice choice choice choice. Choice.
@@NotCharAznable BDO started to feel like a second job to me after a while could be fun as a traveling merchant sim. Loved the world. But God the grind to be competent and the upgrade system that'd make a casino blush.
Efficient and fun overlap a lot. It doesnt feel fun to grind in-game currency knowing there's a more efficient method called a job. Even though a lot of players enjoy grinding currency.
Where this argument falls apart is the analogy with doing a week-long course in martial arts or something else. That takes effort. That's the point, you're going there to spend time to improve at something. There's no skip involved. Paying to win requires nothing but cash. Paying to win is the skip.
This. It's not someone who trained for a long time vs. someone who trained more efficiently for less time - it's someone who trained for a long time vs. someone who paid off the referee.
@@IsomerMashups Exactly. I'm surprised JHS couldn't see this.
Well, you can also argue that getting the cash requires effort as well.
Exactly what Gareth said... Earning cash takes effort, sometimes A LOT of effort.
Cause having a job to get money doesn't require effort apparently.
Many people will misunderstand what you tried to do with this video. For me, it was interesting and reminded me why I stopped spending my time playing mmos. I think the problem lies on the design itself. Mmos are by design meant to suck your time. Everything takes time (and nowadays also good rng), meanwhile other genres can give you fun almost immediately. I believe that, in the future, mmos will change their core design if they want to survive. Maybe grinding will continue to be a thing, but it will be implemented in a way that you won't be able to perceive it as a grind.
I love how he just keeps flexing his mugs on us lol
i now want to by myself a silly mug. He could get some great sponsor if it make it his brand
I'm really jealous of of this pow mug
that's the pay to win aspect
I saw the first video of him today, and two or three more, and I now believe that he aims to show different mugs on every single video XD
@@nigoulenoblehiboux9812 pay to win a mug
I love how these points are the exact reasons why we are having the most predatory monetization schemes in the MMORPG scene. It’s a hard sell trying to defend these points, so mad props for that!
Loot boxes aren't pay2win. They're "commit financial and possibly social seppuku"
@@pronounjow its basically gambling some of them. example csgo. trying to get that ultra rare knife you could resell.
There are ways to have Pay to Win work in a way that isn't obcene.
Like Warframe is a great example, ESPECALLY with PvE games in general. That way you're not getting screwed, you're BENEFITTING from "I just spent $100 on this game".
Though the worst is with PvP and games in general where the amount of advantage you can get super early is just INSANELY high. Like getting Darth Vader during STar Wars Battlefront 2 from Lootboxes.
One of the issues with mmo monetization is that the core mmo game loop is grind. Which makes a perfect place for devs to add payment advantages. Games that arent about the grind, like fortnite, mobas, ect make infinite money with things that dont effect gameplay.
@@TheAyanamiReiSure if you design a game around it, like the horizontal progression of warframe. It’s impossible to have p2w if there is no winning. So in Warframes case it’s truly just pay to progress faster.
Those arguments are dangerous:
1) Skipp or boost speed. Well, MOST P2W games introduce purpose frustration in some game mechanics and give you the possibility to skip. As a developer, YOU are introducing the problem and give the possibility to pay for the solution. There plenty of example in any MMO or similar stuff. So no, totally disagree is a positive aspect. Your example of the 10 hours is perfect. You as a developer are making this choice for introducing a problem. So is not your choice, is a developer choice.
2) Same as one. If you are introducing more content you need to rework the previous one to give the possibility to catch up. You are giving the possibility to skip YOUR content. This is totally a scam. The example for real-life catchup is not comparable because the martial teacher is not introducing the problem for purpose instead they offer the possibility on ANOTHER day stopping other people. Also, the amount of hour will be THE SAME. So you are not getting a real advantage you simply move the time in another window and this cost because it is extra time condensated on a festivity (Sunday).
3) this is partially true but the perspective is wrong. Because you are considering only F2P / P2W but this is not the only genre. There is a front cost with P2W and many others. So I agree with the leaching part IF there is a SERVICE behind the game (even with a front cost, for example, Sea of Thieves) but those rewards should NOT be gain an advantage over you. I can pay for people there are not capable of (kids, etc), but I will not pay WoW for a P2W to level boost my character. I already pay a subscription that should deliver me all the content.
So no I totally disagree with every point in this video and beware that those positivities can lead to something scummy like Destiny 2 and the trasmog. Developers are taking away something we were having to monetize them, they are increasing grind time and give the cheat to us behind a paywall. This should NEVER be supported
The problem as I see it with paid convenience is that the developer then has to balance making something just annoying enough that many players will pay to avoid it while not being so annoying it pushes too many people away from the game. It creates a perverse incentive to make the gameplay less fun. Unless the grind itself feels fun and rewarding, I won't participate in it.
The video title only says "can be good"; just because a system can be abused does not mean every incarnation of the system is inherently a problem.
the opening reminded me of an epiphany i had recently about wow. my character started off as a nobody. i travelled around and did deeds not to become some hero, but to live as an adventurer. sometimes adventurers need to collect those bear asses. but ever since legion when our characters became the heroes, i've never felt part of the world. it's ironic. the my character becomes the center of attention, the more i feel like my character is ignored because everything has to fit across all races and classes.
when i was asked to collect bear asses, they didn't need me to do it because i was the best bear ass collector. i just happened to be nearby and they were willing to pay. wow's story has become like its gearing system. everyone is a hero so no one is. everyone has legendaries so they aren't special anymore. i'm not just a capable adventurer, i'm the hero with no face, name, class, or race. i'm the focal point, yet an enigma at the same time.
A month late but Jesus that's some writing.
It's interesting to read this, as I have had nearly the opposite experience. When I tried for the first time to get into wow, The character I made was on an RP Server, with the background of being a retired war veteran, not some war hero but just a retired soldier. However, as I continued to play through the game with other characters treating me as if it was the first time I had picked up an axe and seeing all the big-named badasses that were surrounding little old normal me throughout the game. It felt so hollow.
Why does everyone act like im some fresh-faced 15 year old getting sent off to war? Im a burly orc man ffs.
Why is it that no matter how many odd jobs I do, monsters I destroy, evil cults I disperse, I am still constantly "Nameless soldier 16"?
Why do all of these Living Legends give a shit whether I live or die? Answer: They don't, you are literal fodder to all of them.
No options for a background? No references to my race, gender, class, anything?
Throughout the entire game trial my character felt like a faceless shadow that meant absolutely nothing to anyone... I felt so small, powerless, and unimportant compared to the mary sue giants around me, I hated it. If I wanted that experience I'd walk outside into the real world, where im just another worker drone, and touch some grass. Fuck grass.
In current retail wow, I actually have a name, I was one of the chosen to fight a divine war, Ive fought through older battles, and have ACTUALLY BEEN FUCKING RECOGNIZED FOR IT. I even managed to play for a few months, because I was actually interested in how the world reacted to my character, instead of being a faceless void. (Still stopped for other reasons, but eh.)
Every player is a hero, as it should be. Every NPC a citizen, or a fellow warrior. Once you become a hero it is natural to feel disconnected from the rest of the world, because honestly, you are. People talk about real life celebrities being out of touch, why would legendary warriors, who are basically celebrities but with extra violence, not feel the same?
As a hero you are on a pedestal, a really high one, try not to fall off. (They need a fall from grace arc for our player character, calling it now...if WoW isn't dead within the next year.)
I still dislike WoW for other reasons now, Art Style, Combat, Writing (Gross). And prefer playing games like FF14, ESO, and Neverwinter. But atleast the way WoW treats its player character currently, as an actually somebody, is much better than it used to be.
i actually felt the opposite, like before legion you were a nobody and you had to work your way to becoming someone to the people around you, but when legion dropped it felt like you finally made it, like all these class halls and masters finally acknowledge your mastery over your class, like i've fought through dragon's lairs, elemental lords, fought the betrayer, the lich king, the literal world destroying dragon, some orc dude who committed a little too many war crimes but that's besides the point, and now when we're finally taking the fight to the burning legion, the ever-present greater power behind the demons who invaded our world everyone finally recognizes that you are the champion of azeroth that you've fought long and hard and it doesn't matter why, what matters is that you're still fighting and they wish to help you, if anything the game lost me when BFA came out and they all forgot all we achieved and what we were fighting for and decided to fight amongst themselves again and they started treating us again like some 2 bit soldier out there to fight the other faction
When i saw that title my uncle's blood pressure spiked, my neighbor went silent and most surprising of all the cat used the litter box
All of that at the same time?
Some of your points were really on point. I don't nessesarily believe in p2w, but in pve only games does it really matter if the person next to you is better bc they bought their way to the top. Do what you like and let everyone else do what they do. Thanks for the video! Great as always
I actually love the musical instrument argument you made because you actually argued against yourself. Instructor or no, the person dedicated an intensive amount of time to catch up to someone who just practices for a couple of hours a day. But in the end they both spent time, not money. The instructor is more like following a guide you bought than an exp boost.
Indeed. I domt think hes played an instrument. The only thing that matters is how long you've practiced. Since to play an instrument everything needs to be second nature/subconscious to you.
But doesn't having an intructor has the big advantage of telling you what you do wrong and giving you useful tips and advices that help you figuring out new stuff? So while the amount of time for practice is around the same, the time for figuring out your mistakes and fixing these mistakes would be reduced significantly?
@@laszlovarga6953 sure, but thats more like hiring a high level player to guide you through making max level or procuring the best gear. Buying exp boosts is like being able yo spend money and have the skill set of how to play imported into your brain like in the matrix.
@@laszlovarga6953 yes. But being instructed is a small%of your total training with an instrument. Lesrning to play an instrument is easy. Playing it well is not.
A major factor for me when determining how to support a game how well the developers balance and offer content updates. If I "feel" that the revenue generated by players actually goes back into the game, then I'm much more incentivized to support financially. If I don't "see" my purchases as an investment to better the future of the game, I likely wont pay additional money in a shop.
Exactly. And if majority of players behaved like this, it would direct the developers into ways beneficial for everybody invested in it, be it via time or money, or both.
You must have a whole bookshelf full of novelty coffee mugs
I genuinely do
Missed the ep where he commented on liking to flex his collection? I gotta say though it is a beautiful collection.
I always think about it... Is there anything in the mug!
A lot of the things you mentioned here is the way Koreans feel about their mmos.
If (South) Koreans think like that, then they are senseless, incongruous
and unreasonable.
@@Kynareth6 It's just a different culture dude. Geez.
I love how when you asked us to look your dog in his eyes he squinted all cute like. He knows whats going on. lol
i was starting to feel bad for never supporting games, but then i remembered i'm broke
Personally, I like games which allow for a player economy where the company takes a cut in a sense, rather than having the company selling power directly (including through gacha). I also think it's entirely possible to run a successful f2p game without having to sell p2w microtransactions, and there are many examples of that being a successful model, although it probably can't sustain a 3D themepark MMO unless it has a very large audience. Paradoxically, the harder games try to monetize their systems, the less likely I am to spend. I will not be pressured into spending for more power with "limited time" deals because I know the score: I'm here to play games, not to get played by publishers.
While pay to win does finance free to play games, there's arguably a tipping point. Many games sprint past that tipping point.
There's a difference between asking the equivalent of a yearly subscription price ($100-$300) to gain access to the majority/ all of a massively multiplayer game's content, and having asking prices similar to that expenditure per week/month to stay relevant with the mid-late game content.
Regarding the issue of "Leeches": I am head of an alliance in Marvel Puzzle Quest. I've spent about a tenner over 5+ years.
Some people in my alliance pay. A Lot. There's bonuses given to alliance members if someone buys the absurd, £100+ resource packs, and I see them come up every month.
If I, and the rest of the 0 or close to 0 spenders in my alliance weren't there to chat with people, discuss the tactics of new character releases, help each other with team comps, and work together for the big team up events, those whales may not have been hooked in.
I don't Directly fund the game, aside from when I actively budgeted a bit Just to try and thank them for the years of content. But when I draw in a new spender by being friendly and giving early game advice, I've helped.
Sure, there'd have been another alliance if I, Specifically, weren't there... But if Every non-whale was gone? The player base would be Dead.
Those free players make up the Majority of the world. They keep the game alive.
Pay2Win is beneficial..
For the people who Pay2Win..
I haven't even begun yet but I am so keen on hearing this one
This supermarket is great. They have Wi-Fi, they give you free samples and you get to use the staff's restroom. I've lived here for months and never paid.
“Pay to win” mostly only bothers me when it takes a “free to play” game and makes it actually not really free to play because at some point you reach the wall of things you can’t really do without paying for one reason or another. Or when the paid options are dramatically better than unpaid options.
Do you think the bald man is going to react to this?
Who?
Ooooooh, I so want this to happen.
Yes, Asmon will probably react to your comment as well
@@bcpond Who?
@@KittyKatty999 they call him the mald walker
If I have been enjoying a free game for sometime I will often just find something to buy so I can show my appreciation. It's usually just some cosmetic thing like wings or a different skin for my favorite mount.
Yeah, merch, figurines, support them on patreon, watching some content they post on yt without adblock.
Cosmetics l, pets and mounts are my downfall, which is why I like ESO’s mystery crates. Every crate you get potions and whatever, but the TOP prizes are always mounts, pets and cosmetics...rarely disappointed and I support a game I’ve played daily for two years now.
same here. i enjoy paying for things i have fun with. like the mums of the people who disliked this video
The mainly dead MMO I'm playing came out with other games in the same universe, so it's an easy choice to support them to get that sweet expanded lore. Also I can always hope that me buying that premium currency is the tiny monetary push that greenlights long overdue content updates.
I only pay money in a free to play a game if it is really good and I am enjoying it greatly.
Or if I feel like I need to catch up with money. I honestly can't remember if I actually did spend money on Fire emblem heroes though, because that game was horribly predatory in the fact that power creep was literally once or twice a month your characters would become more obsolete.
The funniest thing about comparing a pay-2-win MMO with other hobbies is that no one can take away the skill you gained, but an MMO can easily take away the items you have and make them worthless. If you're paying to win, you're either doing it for the thrill or the memories.
In support of your point at 12:08, I found a sweet framed poster on the side of the road on a garbage day. I still have it, and I still enjoy it, and I still haven't paid anyone for it. Someone else bought it so I didn't have to. The downside is that I had to wait for such an opportunity to find it, as well as not desiring that specific thing at that specific time (merely being on the lookout for things like furniture while out on errands during garbage days).
In other words, someone else wanted it now and I wanted it for free. Everybody wins!
idk, but me and my friends have no issues helping a lowbie among us catch up by using our stronger characters to steamroll older content.
If you have a hard time catching up to your friends and your friends decide to not help you out at some point, then they're probably not good gaming friends.
@Mr D J Usually if you’re being corpse camped you can call in guildmates to come in back you up.
MMOs run on gang politics. Trying to tough out the world solo with no help ever is just silly.
I personally dislike relying on people to catch up just to enjoy the game. I've had games where my friends helped me speed grind, and after a few weeks of that and STILL being behind I started to wonder if I really was playing the game or having the game played for me.
@@fanges147 sure, though many MMOs like WoW and FF14 have a feature to sync your level and gear to a party member’s level.
For WoW the high level player will still be more powerful on average, but they won’t be one shotting the boss and they will die if they get no help. The lowbie will be able to meaningfully contribute while also having a somewhat easier time going through the instance.
As a counterpoint, imagine the scenario where you're catching your friends up. You've already hit the endgame, your friends haven't, and you only have 1 or 2 hours a day (max) to enjoy it. You join with your friends every day, play extremely easy content that engages neither them nor you (because you steamroll it for them), then rinse and repeat day over day until they're caught up.
At that point you're not actually enjoying the game; it's more like a chore so you can get to the fun parts. I hit this situation recently in a game with no microtransactions at all, and honestly thought the entire time
"Man, I wish I could gift these guys a few bucks for a boost or something so we can just have fun and play at the same level"
@@jpbhello Totally with you on that point. My cousin HATES leveling in any game. he just likes to do PVP but most of the time you need max level for that since that's where the most content is aimed. I gifted him a level boost in wow TBC(which is only lvl 60/70) and in 3 days with about 12 hours played he had gotten 1 single level because he spent all his time ganking alliance players in hellfire. And he was really happy with it.
U almost got me. I was ready to open my wallet because I don't have time.. but I don't have money either, so maybe it's time for a new hobby lmao
No, its time you got a job you bum!
That's fair 😂😭
Remember those days when you were like "I don't have any money to spend so guess I'm playing WoW all weekend"
The downside to this is while timmy gets to catch up with his friends the company now sees that people are willing to pay to skip content and will put less effort into the journey and only focus on the destination in hopes more people will follow timmys idea of throwing money to be there.
If you don't have time to be a cutting-edge raider then don't be one, if your friends don't want to raid with you while that sucks it's a big game and you can find others to play with at your limits/availability.
As for the few paying players allowing the game to be free if that were really the case the game is already doomed to fail as without the large free player base there to give the paying player a reason to play the company wouldn't make money anyway.
While it was neat to see the argument from the other side you do so assuming the company is doing it to help the player over trying to squeeze every bit of cash they can from someone.
Why they do it isn't relevant though, we all know why they do it and we still play their games. Games designed like this aren't going away. The system makes it so that your game isn't just people with no responsibilities playing. Also free players aren't the reason paying players play, I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
You do a crappy 12 hour 6 days a week minimum wage job and tell me if you can keep up in an MMO without any paid options AND you give up your favorite game cold turkey just cause some free players don't want you to be able to keep up without spending 6 months, 12 hours a day grinding.
Look I've been a free player when I was a kid but really this just seems spiteful toward people that pay. We're sorry we have jobs and bills to pay. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get to play our favorite MMO and no I shouldn't have to find a random group everytime cause I can't keep up with my regular friend group, that's the shittiest hand wave argument ever and anyone who advises it should practice what they preach. Go and delete your entire MMO friend list and block them all, then start over. Do it before you tell anyone else to do it.
Yet someone needs to pay. Remember little Timmy is the one paying for the Devs to create new content. He paying the wages. The other side of the coin is Timmy does not bother and spend the money which means less content. Companies do not wish to invest in new content because there simple too little return on their investment. People in the RD2 community always complain that GTA always get more content. There a simple reason why and its because GTA players spend far more in the cash shop then RD2 players. It makes sense to invest into GTA because your return is much greater. Now if RD2 turn over was equal to GTA turnover we would see a much bigger effort by the devs in new content.
@@carmattvidz4426 if we are talking about a sub to play MMO like wow/ff14 then no little Timmy isn't the one paying the devs for new content every player is. Sadly running a game like a business is what is killing games removing the fun because a company would rather make 10$ sooner then make 100$ later.
I disagree
You make really good points, my biggest issue is how preditory it can become. There certainly is a right and wrong way to do implement pay for power.
unsub
lol
thumbs down, unsub, thrown computer out the window
@@mihai2743 I feel like you missed the joke
@@mihai2743 that joke just flew right over your head
Hu3hu3 Br Br Br
I have long thought there needs to be a distinction between "Pay to Win" where someone spending money has an explicit statistical advantage over people who do not pay (IE, unique and powerful items or bonuses that cannot be otherwise obtained save by paying real money) and "Pay to Not Grind" (where you effectively just spend money to not have to grind for hours on a game just to get the same stuff). The first is despicable and shouldn't be put into games, the second; however, I personally find a lot of value in. I've never enjoyed grinding in games... I don't find doing the same repetitive dungeons over and over again, or flying circuits gathering mats, or wandering around the same area over and over killing the same enemies in the same way with the same button presses enjoyable, and not just in MMOs, any game that has a "grinding" element I tend to just toss my hands up and stop playing after a while. Add on a full time job and two children, and one quickly grows to appreciate things like level boosts and the like that allow you to get things you want and then go play the parts of a game you enjoy, rather than having to commit hours to the same repetitive Pavlovian button presses again and again hour after hour.
That said loot boxes and gatcha can go straight to hell... those are predatory beyond belief and aren't even really pay to win mechanics... they're grinding that costs you real money.
The issue with this mentality is that pay to not grind being effective is that devs will increase the grind to incentivize more players into spending because most people do not enjoy the grind. A big example towards this mentality is how the Assassin's creed franchise is handling things. They make the grind in a singleplayer game that bad so they can sell people XP boosts and gear packs. Another big one is Shadow of war in this game they removed the cash shop entirely and the entire game had to be rebalanced to provide a decent experience within the game. You whale with either time or money now a days. But people prefer to do neither, it's why most people don't set the goals in mmorpgs to be in the 1% of raiders. They don't want to commit the amount of time for it.
They just want to have a good time but when games sell boosters etc. The developers will artifically inflate the grind to sell these "timesavers" when they can easily solve the problem but why do that when they can sell you it. it's why people are reminiscing towards games made 10 years ago because they didn't have these things involved. It's why WoW classic was such a hit on release and look at the state of TBC classic when people had access to a boost for money.
TL;DR: Cash shops that sell anything beyond cosmetics are toxic and even then I don't neccesarily approve of them but I can at the very least compromise with cosmetics.
Sorry for necro'ing.
@@Sollase I agree that a lot of games have done this really badly and made the whole "pay to not grind" aspect seem really bad. But in my experience I've been playing wow for 12 years, I have like 7-8 characters max level and each expansion i am in no fucking mood to level all of them up when i only actually want to play 2 classes and i keep the rest for their professions. But behold, i am not allowed to level that profession unless i do a specific quest that requires close to if not max level(if i remember correctly, i stopped playing shadowlands a while ago but i know it was something like this). I've never actually bought a level booster but i gotta say sometimes this shit can have merit.
My cousin plays WoW exclusively on funservers even though he has a pretty high lvl retail char and gold to pay his subscription cz all he wants to do is PvP and he hates leveling up. Doesn't give a fuck abt the story. For his birthday i bought him TBC + a booster and in 3 days he got from lvl 60 (where the booster leaves you) to 61 cz all he did was gank alliance players in hellfire and he had fun with it. The level booster is not the problem with TBC imo(or the retail version, that one just went to hell with multiple things). I leveled fairly in TBC and i can say without a doubt it was mostly a waste of time unless you really really enjoy questing and exploring. Classic and TBC leveling is just tedious and anyone who acts like it was better "back in the day" is delusional at best. It isn't hard it's just legit boring cz you need to spend 20 seconds drinking every several mobs you kill. And none of that is a recently added mechanic to make ppl buy the boost, it was like this back then too when lvl boosts weren't a thing. I personally like it but i do not blame anyone who wants to skip it and just get to endgame content
@@Arkanna96 Even then there are ways to go around the fact that a boost must be bought when WotLK released there was a big fuss around DKs starting at level 55. (Interesting that they can give a "free" level boost here) Even now I don't really see the need why they have to charge you for it. If you have completed the cycle a few times the game should either make the experience faster or allow for a non paid skip and they have it's why leveling gear exists in WoW and it helps. I don't begrudge people for not wanting to do the same cycle over and over, i understand what that's like. I begrudge the developers for making this work around a paid method. But when new players can also buy this boost it creates this problem where they don't know what they're doing at a point where they should at least have a basic grasp on what's going on.
On another note what I heavily dislike is that this mentality is seeping into singleplayer games. Because there is no ganking or pvp or anything like that and yet they make the grind longer. I'll definitely concede that there is more of an arguement in it for MMO's but more and more it's no longer becoming just an MMO problem.
@@Sollase You're right that they could just make it free, or much faster to level. But personally i don't think it takes that excessively long to level a character(on retail at least) and see no problem in just charging people who want to speed it up, it's a choice, the game doesn't punish you for choosing to level fairly either. Out of the stuff people could pay for this is one of the things I don't mind too much since i know at the end of the day companies want to turn a profit.
The idea with new players is debatable tbh. I really don't think you learn that much leveling these days. On retail it's so easy you could do it with your eyes closed and facerolling the keyboard and on Classic and TBC it's slower but not necessarily because anything is harder and forces you to learn your class that much better. Just because there's so so much wasted time travelling on foot because mounts are obtained at much higher level. Or wasted time eating and drinking because killing 3 mobs depletes your mana pool. Boosting the level wasn't a thing back when the game first came out. Leveling was just like this and people liked it (or i assume they do because they're so fucking against anyone who wants to skip the leveling part). I remember when i first started playing wow back in WOTLK i got to level 80 on my DK and was still absolute garbage at the game. It wasn't until i met some people who taught me a lot about what stats I need and how to use my skill rotation that i got better.
Besides, the boosts don't skip all the way to max level afaik, which is why i don't think they're so bad. They only take you to the max level of the previous expansion. I think 10 levels in TBC is more than enough to get caught up on what your class can do. The first 20 levels where you only have 2 spells and mostly use your wand to kill mobs are really not gonna teach you that much if you don't care about the lore of the game or for exploring the world.
As for the singleplayer games, I'm totally with you. I do not see any purpose to making systems that. I want to pay once and play my god damn game, if a single-player game has microtransactions it can fuck right off. I can sometimes understand DLC's if they actually offer good content (like witcher 3 ones).
"Pay to not grind" inevitably results in games that are designed around being as painful and unfun as possible to grind out
We now have "play to earn" with blockchain games. You can now OWN your digital assets after grinding. This is a huge new trend few people are aware of!
I can see the point you have made, and for those developers that use this system that makes sense even if I despise it.
That is why I take my hard-earned money and vote to "never play those games". I have no free time, like eight hours a week tops. That said if the game is good and I feel like I can achieve something in game, Through Time Invested, I honestly would pay up to $30 a month to play that game. As long as it was a subscription just to play the game.
All I want is a Level Playing Field and that provides it.
If you really break down subscription and p2w, it is the difference between equal opportunity and equal outcome.
Josh, clearly values time with his dog more than he values time with friends and his guild. Just a point.
Neat veiled shade throwing kid. Grow up.
And he's a good man for doing so.
What would you rather give up, online friends or your dog?
"They(ur friends) have better stats and items than you because you were at work" - Oh no. :(
Anything but that D: Quick, add an auto play feature! Now, you don't even HAVE TO PLAY hahaha.. shakes head in disgust
@@Starvona that is why i dont care much about stamina, but i prefer when you can still play but not collect rewards, because the point is for players with more time to not get too ahead, not to make then create multiple accounts so they can keep playing the game or just start playing another game when out of stamina and eventually quiting
At the end of the day, in that one big MMORPG that truly matters, you're the one ahead of them.
Yep so that person that works doesnt need to play mmorpgs games anymore. According to your logic. Sounds more like shitty friends with priority issues lmao
@@blueboi12jj Games aren't a necessity and if you can't manage your time properly then that's your own issue.
None of these arguments hold up, but I specifically dislike the one that supposes that dedicated free players are leeches.
In free to play game, free players are not clients, they are the product.
Just playing a free to play pay to win game supports the devs, because you will be there for a pay 2 win player to stomp.
A dead mmo will never attract whales, having options to keep free 2 play players engaged is a necessity for the game to actually capture people willing to spend money.
This isn't even exclusive to pay 2 win, but all f2p games. In league, a free player has equal chances of winning when compared to a paying player, no pay to win involved. However, it would be really difficult to sell dedicated players on those nice skins if there weren't enough players to play with. f2p model with cosmetics and non essential QoL options in their cash shops are pretty good for both players and developers.
p2w schemes, however, twist this. You have to grind like crazy to stand a chance in a p2w game, and someone with the same time as you but more money will always beat you. Not only do they profit from your time and effort, but they manipulate you into thinking you are getting away with not paying. If free players weren't bringing in profits, they wouldn't keep trying to catch them.
You claim the only reason you can play for free is because someone else is paying. But the truth is the only reason someone is paying is becase you are playing.
A perfect example for FTP players not being leaches is warframe. It is completly impossible to jury prime weapons and warframe (slightly stronger and more epic lookingversions of normal guns inthe game) from the game itself. Only from other players that farmed it. So they create the market to trade with the people that do spend money.
Right? How can he not see that?
@@frequencyoftruth2303 He absolutely does see it, he made that exact argument in his video about whales-yesterday, in fact. This is arguing a viewpoint that he doesn't necessarily agree with, but from a purely direct financial perspective, there's also some truth to the idea that free players don't compensate the developers for the content they're playing.
Your truth is wrong. Hayes has played many MMOs where it is basically empty and there are still whales, which is why they keep the game running. If you play enough "whale-able" games you can easily see that the top 1% don't even know that the rest exist. Remember the Ultra-Whales are on a totally different level of spending. The ones "stomping" on f2p players are barely contributing to the company earnings. The Ultra-whale will pay $100 for a hat in a dead game, for who knows why. Your argument doesn't hold up because you are generalizing two types of payment systems, where there are quite a varying amount. Of course the extremes are what they are. There certainly are cash extraction models that RELY on the free player base, but there are MANY models that rely on paying clients one upping one another.
Also, free players are technically "leeches". If you say they are also part of the product, that doesn't cancel out their "leeching". They simply become both. They are being used, but the game is ALSO being used.
@@robertharris6092 I would still say they are leeches. It's not a bad thing. They are technically playing the game without directly paying, so leeching. Warframe is a very interesting cash extraction model. You can actually buy almost everything with converted money(plat). It is just usually time limited, before they are no longer on sale. Prime Access is the obvious example.
Yes P2W can help a lot catching up but a big issue is that people who do not need to catch up are paying as well and thus often increase the gap even further or make it impossible to close it
I wonder how many new ppl will stumble on this video, with this title, not knowing of Strife or seen his "Why P2W is Bad" video and be so confused lol
He did kinda explain at the beginning
600+ dislikes, people either have no clue or are just hating. He does a good job arguing for the devil
Josh : P2W is unfair and i dislike it but im gonna try to argue in good faith that
Mindless Dumb Dumbs : Hes not being being 100% against what i dont like !
I understand what he wanted to try to do but why argue for a point that has no actual good arguments? Everything he said is wrong. There wasn't any actual good arguments.
@@tehgdk224 There were some reasonable arguments thrown in there but then he mixed them with bullshit nonsense like "nonpaying players are waste and leeches and useless for business".
THing is, even if I you would take all the reasonable arguments here, it still would not make up for all the problems P2W systems bring. But that does not make those arguments invalid. It only means that when compared cons and pros that there is clearly no balance.
I try to stay quiet about it because the subject often gets fairly vitriolic, but for me in recent years it has most definitely become reason 2. I work 70-80 hours a week generally, from home, at a desk doing virtual machine work. So when I'm off work I'm mentally exhausted and the last thing I want to do is immediately go sit at another desk for a few hours. I've got to rest my eyes, rest my back, just lay down and sleep sometimes right after work.
However, I've always loved MMO's, and my friends love MMO's. I often fall behind, or can't complete content at the same pace they do, and I feel bad that they have to stop their progress to come help me play "catch up" when I do get time to join them. I know that by and large the concept of 'pay to win' is bad, but it is beneficial to me. I wish devs could find a balance where each side felt it was fair, but for now, I'll remain selfish and hope it as a practice remains. Without it, I wouldn't have as easy a time doing what I enjoy.
I know this video was meant for devils advocate practice, I know you (and the majority of your fanbase) do not like and would rather purge P2W as a concept. Even still though, it felt good to not be called a 'boot lick' for once or have my intelligence insulted because I take advantage of cash shops. I appreciate the video, even if I know it's not how you really feel. Thank you for making it.
I think a key things is whether winning the game by having lots of stuff from the cash shop and having character so powerful they can defeat raid bosses by tutting at them is needed so have a lot of the fun of the game. If I can still have most of fun without buying everything but what would qualify as an expansion pack in the 90s then a bunch of make the numbers bigger things don't bother me.
I think a bad example of that is DDO as the adventures pretty much require multiplayer and various bonuses mean it is several times more efficient to play them at instant death for those who haven't paid to win difficultly so much of the adventures consisted of standing around in the porch of the dungeon whilst uber character cleared the dungeon which you often didn't even get to see and actually trying to play the game would often get you yelled at.
Lotro's sort of in the middle as the game is lot more convenient once you've paid once.
At the other end is Sryth where after getting a mega buffed character/account I immediately started a new account with none of those things and had just as much fun and possible more as that way I could have a hundred small upgrades rather then one big one all at once.
Worst part of P2W games is the devs purposely create problems (grind, extreme gear/level gates, long travel times) then sell the solutions in the cash shop. I would much rather play a game that actually rewards me for my time instead of telling me "Wow isn't that inconvenient? Just give us $5 to make that go away!"
Honestly, this is a very thought provoking topic, especially in the way you presented it here.
As someone who has recently started a family, your second point truly did hit close to home. Time gets away and I can't dedicate as much time as I used to to my MMO of choice (FFXIV, if you were curious.) and as a result, I've fallen behind.
Pay to Win as a concept, especially in free to play games is a tough pill to swallow for many, and I think that the reason the gaming community views it so poorly is because of the way it has been implemented by developers. Let's step away from MMOs for a second here and look at EA and Battlefront 2. I'm certain we all remember the Darth Vader issue? It's things like that which make it harder and harder for players to view a cash shop with anything other than suspicion.
If you choose to use a cash shop or not. That's completely up to you. Your money, your time, your choice. Personally, I hop into a cash shop every now and then myself. But that's only after I've decided if the game is something I can see myself sticking with for a prolonged period of time, and when I do. It's only cosmetic items. I enjoy the grind of earning my high level items, and I won't rob myself of my own enjoyment just because Guildmate Timmy bought his Cool Greatsword with a +4 to Direct Hit off the cash shop. Good for him.
Free to Play developers need to keep the lights on, that is something I wholeheartedly agree with, and I hope that someday soon the community as a whole can see the cash shop for what it is from the developers side; a way to keep food on the table.
True, I like to do thing efficiently.
However!
Investing money to save time is a completely seperate thing.
To me my money is more important than the time I am willing to put in.
Cause in the end I am still buying pixels on a screen which I may abandon at some point.
Aren't all hobbies like that?
@@OverseerXIII no. Putting $25,000 into a msucle car cause you enjoy can then be turned into a net profit of $50,000 if you tire of it and decide to sell. Also. When the game you're paying into shots down you lose 100% of the money you spent and gain nothing in return.
Anything can be sold, even accounts.
I have the feeling a cash shop can very well be justified until it becomes predatory. Which, sadly, are the majority of them.
I agree, although when a cash shop is predatory is a very subjective thing.
I’m never Ganga make to the top level in mmorpg like I’m never Ganga be a NBA player….
I do not need the power boost that let me go to the pro level…
just a little boost so I can at least play with my friend and go to raid…. Not with ultra shiny armor but at least tag alone for the joyful time.
I think selling currency is good~ since if you don’t sell, other player and Chinese farmer would. Selling ultra powerful item or equipment in loot box is the worst.I love the gambling but I’ve gotten tired with the awful chance of getting what I need. I miss the time when the loot box would have a buyout cost….
This is the point of the video. The mechanic is fine when it’s implemented good, but bad when it’s implemented poorly.
You've definitely given me a new perspective on things. I don't buy membership in Old School Runescape. I buy bonds with in game GP.
The last counter point is a big one, peoples being all proud to have never spend any money.
''Ok, good for you, now the game is going to close because it can't support itself or the server''
An incredibly ballsy video by good ol JSH, I like how you're willing to touch on subjects that most other mmorpg youtubers wouldnt
I know the arguments aren't actually his beliefs, but they're still making me want to type an angry comment
I actually agree with the buy to advance part tbh, because player choice is on the table. What i can't agree on is when cash items that purposefully gives the buyers an unfair advantage in the game such as exclusive weapons and armors that is only available in the cash shop, worse if the developers implemented a "loot box™" system to get said items and even worse if the developers made it that these items are available to use on pvp battles.
There is also the issue of people with neither time nor money, people who have a low paying job, but also have to support a family.
The largest part of any given population is always going to be made up of people who dont earn a lot, so pay 2 win really only caters to a small group in the first place.
I guess the next video is "Defending corrupt Governments" XD
"defending the end of the universe"
Neat opinion bro. Now tell me why anyone cares.
@@dimielgo2267 well, you cared enough to comment so I guess you do care. Thank you bro. :)
i used to think that this is the case but the more i think about it, i think they also need to design the game to be more enjoyable for players who are not putting in the hours, thus less importance on paying to catch up system.
At this point I just want to play something new that can keep my attention. Where the whole community isn't max level with 50 alts.
i take it you play pvp? any mmo worth anything should scale content.
I have never seen your videos until I was searching for info on SoLO today and ran across yours. I liked your point of view then I saw this. This is genius, and I use the counter point of view in my life regularly. Although I must admit: you made me feel like one of the masses that believes anything they hear. Seriously made me question my own values.
Great arguments and great vid, Thanks I love it!
Will this make me mad?
edit: it did, kind of
nice out of date april fools joke, where's the real video
I feel like this video really highlights what I loved about GW2. I don't really play it anymore, but regardless of how much time you had, it was very easy to get to the point where you were on the same level as your guild mates. Grinding isn't really a thing, only for progressions sake, you can jump straight to the endgame and enjoy every part of it with without spending money or time. Guild Wars is a perfect game for the casual MMORPG player, and I can see that, based on the people I got to know through the game. Single moms and men with family were enjoyong the game along with no lifers who had all the legendaries.
One of my favorite aspect of content creators is being able to look at something they dislike subjectively and still pull some objective benefits from it. I think that’s what heavily defines those that actually analyze, assess, and make accurate observations that are actually knowledgeable on the subject matter as opposed to someone who just rants or rambles on endlessly with the pretense of knowledge. Big thumbs up from me and I’ll be following this channel for sure!
I only play subscription games but In free to play games if all you do is play the game you're still adding value. Games die in a week when we as a society decide the game is not trendy anymore. No one is playing an MMO without people, people are in fact the biggest sale point.
Yes. It's like Genshin and how a bunch of people aren't even playing the game. Instead, they make artworks, write fanfics, and talk about it non-stop. That still adds value to the game.
In this information era, attention is currency.
Then selling a get out of grind jail free card rubs people the wrong way. I've seen games where it takes MONTHS to get the grind going or just pick up the 50 buck = to grind armor pack. And magically, the grind zone is fucking dead because people already have the urber gear(which is way more time) or dropped the 50 bucks. I don't feel like I'm saving time, I feel like I have to pay to skip the dead zone.
EXACTLY! the examples given in this video are so bad!
And free to play games have the largest player base because they are free
@@Antiyoukai So if you write fan fiction and you get 100,000 people to join the game and they don't spend a dime. Have you really contributed to the game financially? I'd say no. The only way you would is if some of those people you got to join 'paid' into the game.
you tried the impossible, but the impossible is impossible.
One thing the time vs money argument fails to mention is those who never had the option to begin with.
For kids, they often gravitate towards f2p games since they are the only games they can play without relying on their family. This means they are forced to play EXCESSIVE amounts of game to make progress, and given f2p is likely mostly all they have access to, kids will usually cling to a game that is time consuming and grindy, even if they aren't actually having fun. As such, I think p2w actually facilitates early addiction in children.
While a more typical video game, like an RPG, has a defined story that most likely is under 100 hours unless 100%ed or a Sandbox games has no endgame but relies on the player's own creativity and curiosity to keep them satisfied, MMOs by essence tend to be able to leech infinite hours, especially if constantly expanding. The RPG has a point where an addiction is given a natural barrier, that being the completion of the game. A p2w MMO though actively seeks to keep its player base addicted, and the lack of an achievable endgame means the addiction has to stop in the middle of the game, as opposed to the end(and people tend to like following through with commitments).
I'm not against kids playing games in the slightest, but sunk cost fallacy that f2p games tend to instill in kids who know no better is tragic, as they get gaslit by these awful practices into not realizing they are being exploited in the first place.
Two things: First, Upon scrolling down to write about my second point, I notice this Video was published on my Sister's birthday. With that digression aside, my Second and more relevant point is about a great experience I had at Secondary Comprehensive School. We had a class called Religious and Social Education RSE (I went to school in the Warkishire, England a little old town called Coleshill). The class ended up being one of the most enjoyable, as we did little writing and for an hour each week we were divided into two halves and one side made to argue for a topic and the other to argue against said Topic. It was a great experience and basically, the teacher turned what on paper might have been a very boring lesson to a bunch of teenagers, into a debated class that we looked forward to. As it feels good to have a healthy debate and to see things from points of view other than your little own comfort zone. And more often than not the debate would continue after the class if we had got particularly heated. Anyway back to watching the video.
I gotta thank all the whales that sustain my gacha games
You need to get a waistcoat sponsor ASAP!
And take up snooker
Nice cover Josh! I think base problem with these are that principe you describe works only in theory. The advantages for real money are maybe in some cases used by ppl which can't spend too much time for keep the track with buddies, but there will be always majority of payers, which use these advantages only for to be at the top of all players with still playing 8+ hours per day. So this system doesn't provide the solution, because it's used for diferent reason.
Bingo.
There's really nothing at all good about pay to win.
Progression systems could be removed, which would make the playing field fair... and the game would be a lot better for it, especially for people who don't have a lot of time. And really, if a game needs a progression system to keep players hooked... then it's not really a good game, or at the very least the player does not really like the game enough to continue playing or they got bored which is fine TBH.
Selling power, is not good either. If anything is pisses off a lot of players... and leads to a more toxic community.
Lootboxes and other gambling mechanics don't improve the game either.
The way I see it, when someone plays for free on any F2P they are expiriencing the equivalent of a free trial for any service, like when Crunchyroll allows you to stream it for free but with ads and some delay with the release of the latests episodedes, and when they start paying they expirience the full version of the service (no ads and instant access to episodes in the case of Crunchyroll), it makes sense that you want to give these paying players an enhancement to the expirience, however the "premium expirience" you offer for these paying players has to be carefully chosen, and, in the best case scenario, be something that they value but at the same time does not make them strictly better that other players
i am that weird guy that likes a certain amount of grind in games.
I liked it too when I had time and played solo, it's kind of cathartic.
Slowly getting my items actually is very satisfying because it gives me a feeling of progression. If I start a new game and some veterans try to give me items or help me leveling up I would refuse vehemently.
I'm not spending my time to have someone holding my hands, I'm spending my time to play.
A certain acceptable amount.
But WoW shadowlands total anima cost is 1.2mil per character and you can grind maybe 1000-1500 a day over 1-2 hours with about an extra 1k a week plus whatever extra you get from dungeon groups (mythic+) I haven't finished my covenant and I started on it 5 months ago.
Course I'm going to tell him that because, yes, I am a monster.
Seriously though if you use a spray-paint can to rush painting Warhammer figures you're a war criminal.
Just play with them unpainted for the love of all that is holy
TH-cam Ad for this video was "AFK Arena"
Need I say more -.-
im still trying to figure out the alignment of josh's hair but im leaning towards chaotic neutral
Just chaotic neutral
Honestly love that you attempt to stand up to something you hate just to test things out. I'm sure very few people attempted this sort of thing, despite how helpful it is to being rational.
My take on this is. I don't mind paying for stuff in game... Just as long as i feel like i can do that and still be able to enjoy the game. For example. I will hate a cash shop that sells me obvious advantage over others and is predatory. Heaps of gold, the best equips, the best units, a dosage of energy and things like that but a cash shop that sells me a cool visual, a funny hat, a silly looking mount, a dlc for me to explore and allow me to get more mileage out of my game on my own. I will pay for more content to have fun. Not to virtually stomp on others because at the end of the day, what do i get out of it? Nothing.
I feel like we need a better term than “Pay To Win” for this exact scenario. If the games not really a competition, then you’re not paying to win, you’re paying to play less, or to enjoy something quicker. “Pay To Win” should be reserved for a competitive environment where monetary gains put you in an unfair advantage. Paying to get stat boosts in a MOBA, paying for better gear in PVP, things of that nature.