Nice video. I am currently looking for an effects loop switcher. Not sure which to buy yet as I just started looking...Good info...All suggestions welcome. Thanks. Phil
I'd recommend these or the Harley Benton alternatives as long as you're not wanting to switch pedal orders etc as with these the order is what it is...but if like me you're fine with that then it's no issue
@@marcusdluxe I appreciate the info. I didn't know that Harley Benton made an effects loop switcher. I will need to research that. I'd have to order from Thomann's I would guess like I did when I bought a Harley Benton LP Gold Top guitar..(Sent to the US)... Thanks! Phil NYC / Jersey Shore Area
No I'm afraid not. The loops cascade into one another. I suppose potentially you could put a delay in one of the first 4 loops (front of amp) then another into the second 4 (effects loop, if you chose to use it that way)? Thanks for watching
This might be a dumb question but how to you hook up pedals that arn’t going through the looper? For example the is wah pedal going into another pedal or hooked up through the switcher somehow?
Hey I have an EVH 5150 with clean, crunch, and overdrive channels and an effects loop. It has a standard 1/4" jack on the amp for the included footswitch. Can I use the PXL PRO to change the channels and effects loop on the amp?
Novyar ok, I doubt it would work. Simply because the lead goes in to one trigger input on the joyo with one function- on/off, so I don't know how it would chose which of the three channels you want!? Sorry I can't help more.
Really nice board you got, i have plx8 and am running 8 pedals with mxr dc brick power and it sounds not right, could you tell me what the problem is ?
Jon G Palsson thankyou, boards got a couple of extra pedals back on it now too if you look at any of my newer videos. I'm not sure what the issue may be, sorry. I use two cheap caline power cp-05 units- cheap as chips and had no issues. Sorry I couldn't help. Are your pedals noisy without the pxl? Thanks for watching
Yes and no. You potentially could I think if you used two loop outs to feed the individual amps. But you won't have full usability of the switcher as it only has one main output
Hi, I just got same switch looper. I have a Blackstart HT DUAL distortion which has 2 channels (1 crunch and 1 lead). How can I programm this switch looper to take in consideration channel 1 with other loops and in another patch, Channel 2 ? I mean, when I press patch A for instance in bank 1, i need channel 1 of this blackstar pedal and when I press patch B for example, I would need channel 2...Hop you got my point and if you could help, it would be great !! thanks !
@Andy Staynor I don't think its possible to configure wrong; Guitar into input then loop2 out to amp automatically engages it in normal 8-channel mode. If you have any channel loops switched on that have no pedal attached then it will block all the signal going through. Take an output from output 1 and it automatically runs in dual-4-channel mode. If in doubt run 8 small patch leads from in to out of each of the 8 channels and see if you're getting a signal through. I had an issue a few months ago trying to get a signal through before I realised I forgot to turn my amp on. Really, 20 mins of head scratching. Lol.
@Andy Staynor I no longer have my unit but if i understand correctly the 2 x 4 or 1 x 8 modes are automatically selected when the jacks for output 1 or 2 are inserted, I'm not sure if it s a setting in the hardware programming. However, if this was 100% correct then you should be getting output from out2. Did you try making 8 patch cable loops for all the 8 channels to test signal path?
Hi there, I have a few questions. 1. Let's say if I am using a Strymon Flint, how do I programme the channels let's say if I want channel 1A to be just Reverb and channel 1B to be Reverb and Tremolo? 2. On your video, I noticed that you programmed channel 7A using your modulation pedal. If you were to programme channel 7A using for example preset 2 of your modulation pedal and you programme channel 7B using preset 3 of your modulation pedal. Let's say now you are playing using channel 7A and you change to channel 7B , will the presets on the modulation pedal change accordingly?
Neil D. Davies hi, in short - No, I'm afraid not. Not unless you have a pedal with a remote out- say for example my strymon el Cap, that has an external favourite switch which you can (apparently) operate using the trigger outs of the joyo...but strymon use a stereo lead for some reason & therefore it would have to use two of the mono trigger outs into one stereo jack for the strymon. If that makes sense!? But the pxl pro does have 4 trigger outs so that's not a problem. They do a pxl live which is midi controllable if using the bigger digi delays & reverbs.
Hi. Great demo. What kind/type of cable do you use to do the amp channel switching? I just got one of these and need to incorporate that feature into my setup.
The cable for amp switching is a straight forward mono/mono lead on my amps. But others differ depending on what your amp switch incorporates. If your amp switches channel & reverb you may need a stereo to mono lead.
How come you have so many overdrives pedals if you have a second Chanel in your amp? Is the amps gain channel not good? I have the ht club 40 I notice that some times it gets muddy or muffled but not always, the thing is that I don't know if it's the multi effects unit, or the amp. Do you have the same issues? I'm changing to pedals I just got them yesterday I'm building a pedalboard I might get the joyo pal pro also. Are you happy with you're amp and the pedals? Any suggestions?
emiliano echeverria hi, I have a couple of more recent videos with a slightly tweaked pedalboard. In this video I'm using a HT5R head & 1x12 cab. In the new videos I use HT Studio 20 with a zilla 2x12 cab. I like the sound of the Blackstar's and don't have any issues that you've mentioned. The pxl is a good unit as your signal isn't running thru all the pedals unless you're using them/those loops thus making a cleaner signal chain. I'm mainly a rhythm player & like using gain but I like different overdrive sounds! I love the amp overdrive but sometimes I simply want a different tone. Hope that helps- have a look at my two latest pedalboard videos & feel free to ask/talk any time.
What is the chain position order (signal flow) so I can understand pedal positions within signal chain? i.e. Is it right to left (Low DCBA, then High DCBA) or is it (Low ABCD, then Hi ABCD)? Other? Thanks!
BluesLicks101 hi, I'll try to remember, this video was a while back. It's odd in a way in a way as I have it ascending, in A is 1, B is 2 etc. So in this video I have... A Bears Blare B JHS Soul Food C Earthquaker Black Eye into the Rothwell Tornado. D TC Nova Modulator Then the 2nd four are thru the fx loop. TC Flashback Strymon El Capistan. Thanks for watching, feel free to ask me anything else.
I'm a weird musician and I like to play with my effects. Like the reverb pedal having it in front or behind the dirt section of the board. Is there a way to do that with just using one reverb pedal in the joyo pxl pro with just a flip of a switch?
ThatBeardedGuy hi, I'm afraid not. The order of the loops/pedals are as they're numbered, 1234 etc, so 1 in to 2 and so on. The only way potentially you could do it would be to have an overdrive in 1 & 3, then a reverb in 2 so you could play OD in to reverb or reverb in to OD. Or have overdrive (1) into reverb (2) then/or not use the OD pedal but use the amp OD thus have the reverb going in to the amps OD!?
My Guitar Stuff alright. Makes sense. Or I could have another reverb pedal. Have both reverb pedals on each end of the dirt section. Thanks alot! Love your videos!
ThatBeardedGuy yeah, you could totally do that. Even run one one reverb through the effects loop using the option of the second 4 loops being routed that way.
Hi again. Just wondered if you can have other pedals running outside of the loops? that you can just switch on and off whenever? If you know what I mean? Also where would I get a compressor into the equation? I want a compressor to be on all the time. Can I run that outside of the loop? Same with a boss rc3 looper. Thanks
WhiteLionParade hi, any pedals you wanted to add out of the extra to the loop would have to either on your signal path in to or out of the joyo- so things like a compressor that you may want on all the time you could have before the joyos input. Hope that makes sense!?
Yeah that is what I thought you can do. I have seen another demo where the guy had pedals connected to his trigger inputs.. but that confused me! lol I am starting to understand the pedal now though. One last question I swear... once your playing your guitar with a few pedals on in a loop you've banked can you switch on another pedal in the other loops at anytime?
WhiteLionParade hi, no worries about the questions, happy to try & help. I've seen a video where a guy uses a carl Martin external Reverb tank- he uses triggers to turn it on & switch between the two reverb settings- that's what that reverb is kind of designed for- being a spring reverb it's designed to be out of the way (so not knocked and get that awful sound you get when a spring Reverb is knocked) and operated via a footswitch. There pedals that have external foot switch capabilities- my strymon for example had a "favourite" switch so that potentially could be switched by the trigger out- but it's a stereo jack so that gets confusing as I'd need to have a stereo in to the strymons switch socket then split it to two monos for the triggers!!?? As for the question- In what way? If your saved bank uses say loop 1 2 & 4 and you wanted to turn on a pedal in loop 3 you'd either have to have loop 3 activated in that bank (so actually 1 2 3 & 4) but have the pedal in 3 off then turn turn on the actual pedal when you want to add it in or simply have another saved bank- so have a bank with 1 2 & 4 then a bank with 1 2 3 & 4. I have a couple of loops where I have multiple pedals in one loop and I turn on/off the actual pedals to suit the track I'm playing- i.e. In this video the earthquakes black eye & rothwell tornado are in one loop & I flick on the black eye when I want a boost. I hope that helps!? Hahha
WhiteLionParade the answer for all your doubts is yes, you can use a pedal out of the loops in the moment that you want. Specially when the joyo are in bypass mode. Hope help you, and sorry for my bad English I'm from Colombia 🇨🇴
Sebastian Fox no worries, glad it was understandable haha. Unfortunately there is no stereo option with this switcher. Other that running a wet and dry set up using the tuner out as a feed for a second amp....but that would have no effects other than any you chose to put after said tuner out. Hope that makes sense. I've done a couple of videos showing this. I think "my dual amp set up" and even the "LongAmp Ultra Distortion" video both highlight it. Thanks for watching, feel free to ask.
Jake Mann hi, yes, you would use a standard mono guitar cable from one of the trigger outs into the amps footswitch input. It starts getting a little more complicated if you're running an amp switches more than just amp channel. Ie the amp channel and reverb. Thanks for watching
Scott Hornsey an in could you have it phase 90>flashback then switch it flashback>phase 90? If so no- it goes in order, loop 1>2>3>4-1>2>3>4 (second four with the ability to be through the fx loop) Of course if you had phase in 1 & flashback in 2 it would run phase in to flashback.
emiliano echeverria hi, this is through a HT5R but now I have a HT20. The joyo is sufficient for my needs and I haven't noticed any degradation in sound.
emiliano echeverria I put the wah I'm the first loop after the LongAmp Bears Blare. I've another, more recent pedalboard video that will show that better. You could put the wah in any of them but wahs are usually early in a signal chain.
Can anyone think of a way that I could combine some of loop 1's effects loops with loop 2's effects loop? Basically, I only have a couple of pedals to go in the amp's effects loop, and I'd like to use loop 2's other send/return units for in front of the amp. There must be some way of doing this. (Hope this comment makes sense)
Seth Husband from what I know from using mine it's not possible to split the second four loops and chose which go where. You can have all your pedals go in the front of the amp. Or unfortunately it's four and four. Of course you can have more than one pedal in a loop. So you could put two/three pedals in any of the first four loops and manually chose them pre song.
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Nice video. I am currently looking for an effects loop switcher. Not sure which to buy yet as I just started looking...Good info...All suggestions welcome. Thanks.
Phil
I'd recommend these or the Harley Benton alternatives as long as you're not wanting to switch pedal orders etc as with these the order is what it is...but if like me you're fine with that then it's no issue
@@marcusdluxe I appreciate the info.
I didn't know that Harley Benton made an effects loop switcher. I will need to research that.
I'd have to order from Thomann's I would guess like I did when I bought a Harley Benton LP Gold Top guitar..(Sent to the US)... Thanks!
Phil
NYC / Jersey Shore Area
U have a nice looking set up there. 👍❤️
Thanks
Hola tengo dos dudas no se puede usar en un equipo que no tenga loop no?
y la otra como lo enchufaria a una consola si uso un pedal preamp?
Hi Man, What is your pedal board dimension brand and model name pls?
Thanks for the nice video
I'm afraid this video was made a few years ago so I don't know the dimensions
Hi. Can I run separate delays in separate loops. So they will be parallel and NOT repeat each other? Thanks
No I'm afraid not. The loops cascade into one another. I suppose potentially you could put a delay in one of the first 4 loops (front of amp) then another into the second 4 (effects loop, if you chose to use it that way)?
Thanks for watching
My Guitar Stuff Thanks for the reply, I bought one and Im also using a line selector for parallel delays in one of the loops 👍🏼
nice set up, I have a pxl pro bloody good fun.
I have the same Blackstar head, do you have any issues regarding the connection to switch the amp's channels, maybe some latency or any other thing?
Hi, I don't have that amp anymore. But I can't remember any issues and I certainly haven't had any with other amps.
This might be a dumb question but how to you hook up pedals that arn’t going through the looper? For example the is wah pedal going into another pedal or hooked up through the switcher somehow?
Not dumb at all. You can have pedals before/after the switcher and you can have multiple pedals in each loop if desired.
Hi Marcus, just been wondering, what size is your pedalboard?
Hey I have an EVH 5150 with clean, crunch, and overdrive channels and an effects loop. It has a standard 1/4" jack on the amp for the included footswitch. Can I use the PXL PRO to change the channels and effects loop on the amp?
Novyar to be honest I'm not sure! Is it a mono or stereo jack? (Single or double ring?).
My Guitar Stuff I just tried a mono cable and it worked fine.
Novyar ok, I doubt it would work. Simply because the lead goes in to one trigger input on the joyo with one function- on/off, so I don't know how it would chose which of the three channels you want!?
Sorry I can't help more.
Novyar try asking "EytschPi42", he's done a lot of pxl vids & seems to be endorsing them.
Really nice board you got, i have plx8 and am running 8 pedals with mxr dc brick power and it sounds not right, could you tell me what the problem is ?
Jon G Palsson thankyou, boards got a couple of extra pedals back on it now too if you look at any of my newer videos.
I'm not sure what the issue may be, sorry. I use two cheap caline power cp-05 units- cheap as chips and had no issues.
Sorry I couldn't help. Are your pedals noisy without the pxl?
Thanks for watching
If I run a stereo pedal into upper then lower loops will that work for going out to two amps.
Yes and no. You potentially could I think if you used two loop outs to feed the individual amps. But you won't have full usability of the switcher as it only has one main output
Hi, I just got same switch looper. I have a Blackstart HT DUAL distortion which has 2 channels (1 crunch and 1 lead). How can I programm this switch looper to take in consideration channel 1 with other loops and in another patch, Channel 2 ? I mean, when I press patch A for instance in bank 1, i need channel 1 of this blackstar pedal and when I press patch B for example, I would need channel 2...Hop you got my point and if you could help, it would be great !! thanks !
Mahmoud BARK I have the same dude
Mahmoud BARK my amp has 3 modes in which one of his two channels it's a Marshall JVM
you can program up to 4 of the triggers to change amp channels for you, in exactly the same way as you assign different pedal loops to a bank
@Andy Staynor I don't think its possible to configure wrong; Guitar into input then loop2 out to amp automatically engages it in normal 8-channel mode. If you have any channel loops switched on that have no pedal attached then it will block all the signal going through. Take an output from output 1 and it automatically runs in dual-4-channel mode. If in doubt run 8 small patch leads from in to out of each of the 8 channels and see if you're getting a signal through. I had an issue a few months ago trying to get a signal through before I realised I forgot to turn my amp on. Really, 20 mins of head scratching. Lol.
@Andy Staynor I no longer have my unit but if i understand correctly the 2 x 4 or 1 x 8 modes are automatically selected when the jacks for output 1 or 2 are inserted, I'm not sure if it s a setting in the hardware programming. However, if this was 100% correct then you should be getting output from out2. Did you try making 8 patch cable loops for all the 8 channels to test signal path?
Hi there,
I have a few questions.
1. Let's say if I am using a Strymon Flint, how do I programme the channels let's say if I want channel 1A to be just Reverb and channel 1B to be Reverb and Tremolo?
2. On your video, I noticed that you programmed channel 7A using your modulation pedal. If you were to programme channel 7A using for example preset 2 of your modulation pedal and you programme channel 7B using preset 3 of your modulation pedal. Let's say now you are playing using channel 7A and you change to channel 7B , will the presets on the modulation pedal change accordingly?
Neil D. Davies hi, in short - No, I'm afraid not. Not unless you have a pedal with a remote out- say for example my strymon el Cap, that has an external favourite switch which you can (apparently) operate using the trigger outs of the joyo...but strymon use a stereo lead for some reason & therefore it would have to use two of the mono trigger outs into one stereo jack for the strymon. If that makes sense!? But the pxl pro does have 4 trigger outs so that's not a problem. They do a pxl live which is midi controllable if using the bigger digi delays & reverbs.
Hi. Great demo. What kind/type of cable do you use to do the amp channel switching? I just got one of these and need to incorporate that feature into my setup.
The cable for amp switching is a straight forward mono/mono lead on my amps. But others differ depending on what your amp switch incorporates. If your amp switches channel & reverb you may need a stereo to mono lead.
Ok, thanks!
How come you have so many overdrives pedals if you have a second Chanel in your amp? Is the amps gain channel not good?
I have the ht club 40 I notice that some times it gets muddy or muffled but not always, the thing is that I don't know if it's the multi effects unit, or the amp. Do you have the same issues? I'm changing to pedals I just got them yesterday I'm building a pedalboard I might get the joyo pal pro also.
Are you happy with you're amp and the pedals?
Any suggestions?
emiliano echeverria hi, I have a couple of more recent videos with a slightly tweaked pedalboard. In this video I'm using a HT5R head & 1x12 cab.
In the new videos I use HT Studio 20 with a zilla 2x12 cab. I like the sound of the Blackstar's and don't have any issues that you've mentioned. The pxl is a good unit as your signal isn't running thru all the pedals unless you're using them/those loops thus making a cleaner signal chain.
I'm mainly a rhythm player & like using gain but I like different overdrive sounds! I love the amp overdrive but sometimes I simply want a different tone.
Hope that helps- have a look at my two latest pedalboard videos & feel free to ask/talk any time.
What is the chain position order (signal flow) so I can understand pedal positions within signal chain? i.e. Is it right to left (Low DCBA, then High DCBA) or is it (Low ABCD, then Hi ABCD)? Other? Thanks!
BluesLicks101 hi, I'll try to remember, this video was a while back. It's odd in a way in a way as I have it ascending, in A is 1, B is 2 etc.
So in this video I have...
A Bears Blare
B JHS Soul Food
C Earthquaker Black Eye into the Rothwell Tornado.
D TC Nova Modulator
Then the 2nd four are thru the fx loop.
TC Flashback
Strymon El Capistan.
Thanks for watching, feel free to ask me anything else.
Guitar stuff, when assigning each pedal, does the order you pick determine the order of the chain?
I'm a weird musician and I like to play with my effects. Like the reverb pedal having it in front or behind the dirt section of the board. Is there a way to do that with just using one reverb pedal in the joyo pxl pro with just a flip of a switch?
ThatBeardedGuy hi, I'm afraid not. The order of the loops/pedals are as they're numbered, 1234 etc, so 1 in to 2 and so on. The only way potentially you could do it would be to have an overdrive in 1 & 3, then a reverb in 2 so you could play OD in to reverb or reverb in to OD. Or have overdrive (1) into reverb (2) then/or not use the OD pedal but use the amp OD thus have the reverb going in to the amps OD!?
My Guitar Stuff alright. Makes sense. Or I could have another reverb pedal. Have both reverb pedals on each end of the dirt section. Thanks alot! Love your videos!
ThatBeardedGuy yeah, you could totally do that. Even run one one reverb through the effects loop using the option of the second 4 loops being routed that way.
Hi again. Just wondered if you can have other pedals running outside of the loops? that you can just switch on and off whenever? If you know what I mean? Also where would I get a compressor into the equation? I want a compressor to be on all the time. Can I run that outside of the loop? Same with a boss rc3 looper. Thanks
WhiteLionParade hi, any pedals you wanted to add out of the extra to the loop would have to either on your signal path in to or out of the joyo- so things like a compressor that you may want on all the time you could have before the joyos input.
Hope that makes sense!?
Yeah that is what I thought you can do. I have seen another demo where the guy had pedals connected to his trigger inputs.. but that confused me! lol I am starting to understand the pedal now though. One last question I swear... once your playing your guitar with a few pedals on in a loop you've banked can you switch on another pedal in the other loops at anytime?
WhiteLionParade hi, no worries about the questions, happy to try & help.
I've seen a video where a guy uses a carl Martin external Reverb tank- he uses triggers to turn it on & switch between the two reverb settings- that's what that reverb is kind of designed for- being a spring reverb it's designed to be out of the way (so not knocked and get that awful sound you get when a spring Reverb is knocked) and operated via a footswitch. There pedals that have external foot switch capabilities- my strymon for example had a "favourite" switch so that potentially could be switched by the trigger out- but it's a stereo jack so that gets confusing as I'd need to have a stereo in to the strymons switch socket then split it to two monos for the triggers!!??
As for the question- In what way? If your saved bank uses say loop 1 2 & 4 and you wanted to turn on a pedal in loop 3 you'd either have to have loop 3 activated in that bank (so actually 1 2 3 & 4) but have the pedal in 3 off then turn turn on the actual pedal when you want to add it in or simply have another saved bank- so have a bank with 1 2 & 4 then a bank with 1 2 3 & 4.
I have a couple of loops where I have multiple pedals in one loop and I turn on/off the actual pedals to suit the track I'm playing- i.e. In this video the earthquakes black eye & rothwell tornado are in one loop & I flick on the black eye when I want a boost.
I hope that helps!? Hahha
WhiteLionParade the answer for all your doubts is yes, you can use a pedal out of the loops in the moment that you want. Specially when the joyo are in bypass mode. Hope help you, and sorry for my bad English I'm from Colombia 🇨🇴
Great explanation! How do you run the pedals in stereo with this fx looper? Thanks!
Sebastian Fox no worries, glad it was understandable haha.
Unfortunately there is no stereo option with this switcher. Other that running a wet and dry set up using the tuner out as a feed for a second amp....but that would have no effects other than any you chose to put after said tuner out. Hope that makes sense.
I've done a couple of videos showing this. I think "my dual amp set up" and even the "LongAmp Ultra Distortion" video both highlight it.
Thanks for watching, feel free to ask.
Ahh..ok. Thanks for the quick response. Rock on!!
Sebastian Fox no worries! Cheers for the subscription too!
Hi, do you need to run a separate cable to the amp for switching? I’m thinking trigger out to foot switch in?
Jake Mann hi, yes, you would use a standard mono guitar cable from one of the trigger outs into the amps footswitch input. It starts getting a little more complicated if you're running an amp switches more than just amp channel. Ie the amp channel and reverb.
Thanks for watching
Can you choose what order it goes through the pedals? For example I use a phase 90 into my flashback, is there a way of doing this?
Scott Hornsey an in could you have it phase 90>flashback then switch it flashback>phase 90? If so no- it goes in order, loop 1>2>3>4-1>2>3>4 (second four with the ability to be through the fx loop)
Of course if you had phase in 1 & flashback in 2 it would run phase in to flashback.
My Guitar Stuff ahhh thank you
Scott Hornsey I hope that made sense
How happy are you with sound of the plx? What amp is that? The ht20 or the ht5?
emiliano echeverria hi, this is through a HT5R but now I have a HT20. The joyo is sufficient for my needs and I haven't noticed any degradation in sound.
Where in the switcher do you put the wah pedal?
emiliano echeverria I put the wah I'm the first loop after the LongAmp Bears Blare.
I've another, more recent pedalboard video that will show that better.
You could put the wah in any of them but wahs are usually early in a signal chain.
can the Pxl Pro switch the amp's channel?
hi, yes it can. it has four trigger outs. so as long as you amp doesn't have a complex switching system with a multi pin connector you should be fine
Can anyone think of a way that I could combine some of loop 1's effects loops with loop 2's effects loop? Basically, I only have a couple of pedals to go in the amp's effects loop, and I'd like to use loop 2's other send/return units for in front of the amp. There must be some way of doing this. (Hope this comment makes sense)
Seth Husband from what I know from using mine it's not possible to split the second four loops and chose which go where. You can have all your pedals go in the front of the amp. Or unfortunately it's four and four.
Of course you can have more than one pedal in a loop. So you could put two/three pedals in any of the first four loops and manually chose them pre song.
Which pedal board are you using?
It's one I made. I'm now actually making rustic boards to sell. I've posted some on my Instagram @marcusdluxe
Thanks for watching
what chanel amplif?
Emanuel Benitez on this video I was using a Blackstar HT5R Head & 1x12 cab.
Hi, which pedaltrain is this?
Robin B hi, its a home made board. Just some 2x1 timber
My Guitar Stuff how wide it it? I sold my huge pt pro to downsize to a novo24 and am hoping the looper will fit haha :D
Robin B it's about 650mm x 350
My Guitar Stuff awesome thanks! great pedal choices also btw