Dockside is essential for color balance in CEDH, if you take it out red is dead. Another important point is that this is a card that makes players who play last in the round recover this disadvantage in relation to their opponents, which is very important in a multiplayer game.
I disagree, I don't think it's necessarily dead. It still has breach which is part of a super popular win con. Obviously losing dockside would neuter red pretty hard but I don't think it would be completely dead.
@@erikswanson4022 you are partially correct. I have a CEDH Thrasios/Drago deck and I can say that the choice of Dargo as a partner is almost 90% due to the dockside. Of course, you could argue that just replacing with a peregrine drake would have a similar effect, except that due to this replacement it would be more profitable to switch partners to Tymna and end the game with more options on black, in addition to having access to better tutors . In other words, in the end, almost any deck that chooses to incorporate red will likely give up in the absence of the dockside. The breach, Freeze, LED is just one combo finisher as any other in CEDH.
red has jeska will, underworld breach, storm kiln artist and a whole lot of strong game ending bombs. Dockside warps the format, it IS bannable, the same way thoracle is.
@@AdaWongMistress There is a bigger problem to be analyzed. Treasure was a lazy mechanic, wizards decided that the payoff of some cards was to give X lotus petals and that actually warps the format, just like the initiative broke legacy because of lack of testing I think the design team dont know the impact in competitive/multiplayer senarios. CEDH/EDH have a lot of infinite/answer now cards and this is ok, in the long run just like graveyard strategys was OP in the past they fixed this by giving more graveyard hate options over the years, insted of banning dockside they should give more hateful artifact stuff to all colors.
This video is 100% correct. Dockside only scales with the power level of the playgroup/pod. Therefore, if you're playing in cEDH/ high power it's expected to play the most powerful cards in the format. Making "Ban dockside" a nothingburger, I for one as well as alot of cEDH players are very happy with the current state of the metagame. Running x3 clones to copy Dockside and the one ring is very fun IMHO.
Haha this didn't age too well. My casual liberator deck plus the board always gave the dockside player 4 treasures minimum on turn 2-4. Too low risk for such a huge reward totally deserves the hammer. They did the same for hullbreacher which is so similar they called it an unfinished cycle lol.
I always say that dockside punishes players for being to greedy in cedh i will say it isnt balanced in lower power play so i just dont play it in casual. The issue isnt with the power of the card its an issue with rule 0 discussions not happening and players overtuning for the pods they play in.
@Servbot40 Yes, yes and yes again, ban 2 card combos. Fast mana in general makes edh boring and imo should be left for cedh(which should be its own format with its own legality list)
You should only see cedh decks when playing cedh lmfao, every time I’ve seen someone complain about one of the pods decks being cedh, it hasn’t been in the last 10 years of Playing this game, except once, where the guy said he just had the one deck and wanted a game at my lgs, he didn’t even win since two players had a counter spell and he got goon squaded. Think main grief people have with cedh is people putting their very high power combos into their 1-7 power lvl decks. Kinda of a classic “my deck is a 7” moment getting hermit Druid combo’d by a power 7 gitrog deck
I don’t think your argument encapsulated the true floor and ceiling of Dockside. Its floor is never 0, just because that is theoretically possible doesn’t mean that it will actually happen. On the flip side the ceiling is rarely 6 in casual games. In the late stages of the game is can easily be twice that much. I don’t think a 2 mana card on a cards that is good at most stages of the game should also be a counter this or lose in the late game. Yes the game should end and yes casual should be about big plays but this is way to cheap to come out of nowhere and win the game. It lines up with other powerful cards that causal tables self select out but doesn’t get selected out at the same rate. If players didn’t play Dockside inappropriately I would say fine, but they don’t so i think for the health of the format its bannable.
Dude i dont know how to start here, so let's start from beginning: Any card which by self filters 1R to any color, meanwhile making 2 tokens and 2 sac, plus a 1/2 body is doing A LOT, for one card (korvold i'm looking at you), and this is for just 2 treasures made, which is impossible. EVERYONE in commander uses sol ring at least, followed by arcane signet, other signets and talismans (which you never even mentioned, LOL), plus an infinite of tech/protection artifacts like lightning graves, herald's horn, ecc. It's very possible than that dockside generates 4+ treasures, that means that is giving 2x the mana it requires to cast it almost EVERY TIME. There is a powerful artifact in MTG that makes 3 mana of any color compared to this cost, you know, that's called BLACK LOTUS, and you have to sack it in one time, generating the mana all in one time, not be able to chose later and without making a body in play, PLUS black lotus goes in your graveyard, and it's way harder to bring back on the battlefield, uh and it's ofc BANNED in commander. Speaking of casual commander, wild growth, utopia sprawl, are already superpopular choices, with sol ring and signets/ talismans being in the top picked cards all along. Also all cards you mentioned are there to counter artifacts, but in a very inefficient way: culling ritual just makes you pay 4 to get no mana, cause of sac and float, and the remaining six are just too slow, with ouphie being the only choice, maybe along with manglehorn, (not even mentioned). The fun part is that you claim u're running 7 on 99 cards just to counter artifacts that u're saying are not played, just ridicoulous. Concluding, dockside is THE most broken card in cedh and edh right now. It's the best mana engine, the best 2 drop and just makes your t2 gigantic for no reason. PS: if you think that primieval titan is better than dockside, just because can bring in a gaea's cradle, dude u're so wrong, it's just thousands time worse, i mean, it fkin cost 6.
Dockside will never generate 0 treasures. No one is going to play it on a board without artifacts and enchantments, and even at precon level gameplay, virtually every deck comes with a 8-10 mana rock package in addition to non-mana producing artifacts. Between artifacts and enchantments, I would say the average number is 20-30, usually increasing for non-precons--a full fifth of a deck, times 3 for each opponent. The format is faster now precisely because of the amount of artifact fast-mana going around, and the exact reasons primeval titan was banned apply to dockside, except dockside is many degrees more problematic. Each subsequent dockside, either cloned/blinked/reanimated nets you literally exponentially increasing amounts of treasure. All at 1/3 the price of the titan and all enter untapped unlike the titan's lands. Primeval titan at another level? That's pretty laughable. Really, the only advantage it has over dockside is utility. Dockside makes much more mana, immediately, for far less mana. And if you've ever played against dockside, you know that there is never only one trigger.
The only game I've felt an opponent's Dockside was justified, was when I had 80 artifacts solider creature tokens in my Myrel, Shield of Argive deck hahaha.
Lol fr. “Dockside isn’t a problem,” then proceeds to pull out a red (wubrg) cEDH deck that easily combos with dockside. Play a non red (non-blue so you can’t copy dockside) deck in cEDH against a pod of dockside najeelas and seriously tell me it isn’t a problem. Maybe it would be fair if mana crypt and soul ring weren’t the best cards in all of commander, and it wasn’t formatted to also count enchantments and just artifacts
Just be honest with yourself. You don't want the card to be banned because it would not be financially viable for yourself ;). With everybody playing mana rocks early game, saying that this does not generate a reliable mana advantage even early game is simply being selectively blind. If hullbreacher was banned, this must be banned.
Your arguments are stupid. The card enables 5 color blue soup decks way too easily, it's a ritual, a "stax" piece and invalidates land hate like blood moon, back to basics, winter orb and it's a combo piece on a stick. The card is meta warping you don't see blood moon played anymore thanks entirely to dockside, dockside ensures that no one plays cards like blood moon and that the person playing it is never ever punished for playing 5 color blue soups. Pure artifact hate cards like collector ouphe are fine because they're only hate pieces they don't double up as combo piece, mana rituals while making a whole subset of cards to be almost unplayable. cEDH cannot handle dockside and it must be banned for cEDH health.
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Ironic
i'm sorry Vex i disagree with you on this one, nobody will convince me Dockside isn't a bannable card
@Servbot40 dude how is making 15 mana of any color not a problem? Do you even know Sisay, Najeela, Magda or Korvold? And that is just the top 4.
Dockside is essential for color balance in CEDH, if you take it out red is dead. Another important point is that this is a card that makes players who play last in the round recover this disadvantage in relation to their opponents, which is very important in a multiplayer game.
I disagree, I don't think it's necessarily dead. It still has breach which is part of a super popular win con. Obviously losing dockside would neuter red pretty hard but I don't think it would be completely dead.
@@erikswanson4022 you are partially correct. I have a CEDH Thrasios/Drago deck and I can say that the choice of Dargo as a partner is almost 90% due to the dockside. Of course, you could argue that just replacing with a peregrine drake would have a similar effect, except that due to this replacement it would be more profitable to switch partners to Tymna and end the game with more options on black, in addition to having access to better tutors . In other words, in the end, almost any deck that chooses to incorporate red will likely give up in the absence of the dockside. The breach, Freeze, LED is just one combo finisher as any other in CEDH.
red has jeska will, underworld breach, storm kiln artist and a whole lot of strong game ending bombs. Dockside warps the format, it IS bannable, the same way thoracle is.
@@AdaWongMistress There is a bigger problem to be analyzed. Treasure was a lazy mechanic, wizards decided that the payoff of some cards was to give X lotus petals and that actually warps the format, just like the initiative broke legacy because of
lack of testing I think the design team dont know the impact in competitive/multiplayer senarios. CEDH/EDH have a lot of infinite/answer now cards and this is ok, in the long run just like graveyard strategys was OP in the past they fixed this by giving more graveyard hate options over the years, insted of banning dockside they should give more hateful artifact stuff to all colors.
Usually when you play a dockside, you win. Abusing it’s etb triggers or cloning it ,etc.
aged like milk
This video is 100% correct. Dockside only scales with the power level of the playgroup/pod. Therefore, if you're playing in cEDH/ high power it's expected to play the most powerful cards in the format. Making "Ban dockside" a nothingburger, I for one as well as alot of cEDH players are very happy with the current state of the metagame. Running x3 clones to copy Dockside and the one ring is very fun IMHO.
Haha this didn't age too well. My casual liberator deck plus the board always gave the dockside player 4 treasures minimum on turn 2-4. Too low risk for such a huge reward totally deserves the hammer. They did the same for hullbreacher which is so similar they called it an unfinished cycle lol.
This is poetic 😂
I always say that dockside punishes players for being to greedy in cedh i will say it isnt balanced in lower power play so i just dont play it in casual. The issue isnt with the power of the card its an issue with rule 0 discussions not happening and players overtuning for the pods they play in.
It goes infinate too easy, thats why it should be banned. Btw why the hell is CEDH isn't yet a separate format?
because its still EDH. its up to your playgroup to decide how you want to play so you can use it or not
@Servbot40 Yes, yes and yes again, ban 2 card combos. Fast mana in general makes edh boring and imo should be left for cedh(which should be its own format with its own legality list)
You should only see cedh decks when playing cedh lmfao, every time I’ve seen someone complain about one of the pods decks being cedh, it hasn’t been in the last 10 years of
Playing this game, except once, where the guy said he just had the one deck and wanted a game at my lgs, he didn’t even win since two players had a counter spell and he got goon squaded. Think main grief people have with cedh is people putting their very high power combos into their 1-7 power lvl decks. Kinda of a classic “my deck is a 7” moment getting hermit Druid combo’d by a power 7 gitrog deck
Bro is replying to any comment that says dockside is a ban worthy card he definitely has a couple that he doesn’t want the price going down on 😂
where did you get this play mat !!
can't convince me primeval titan should be banned lmao. I'd rather see dockside and thassa banned
I don’t think your argument encapsulated the true floor and ceiling of Dockside. Its floor is never 0, just because that is theoretically possible doesn’t mean that it will actually happen. On the flip side the ceiling is rarely 6 in casual games. In the late stages of the game is can easily be twice that much. I don’t think a 2 mana card on a cards that is good at most stages of the game should also be a counter this or lose in the late game. Yes the game should end and yes casual should be about big plays but this is way to cheap to come out of nowhere and win the game. It lines up with other powerful cards that causal tables self select out but doesn’t get selected out at the same rate. If players didn’t play Dockside inappropriately I would say fine, but they don’t so i think for the health of the format its bannable.
This didn't age well
Dude i dont know how to start here, so let's start from beginning:
Any card which by self filters 1R to any color, meanwhile making 2 tokens and 2 sac, plus a 1/2 body is doing A LOT, for one card (korvold i'm looking at you), and this is for just 2 treasures made, which is impossible. EVERYONE in commander uses sol ring at least, followed by arcane signet, other signets and talismans (which you never even mentioned, LOL), plus an infinite of tech/protection artifacts like lightning graves, herald's horn, ecc.
It's very possible than that dockside generates 4+ treasures, that means that is giving 2x the mana it requires to cast it almost EVERY TIME.
There is a powerful artifact in MTG that makes 3 mana of any color compared to this cost, you know, that's called BLACK LOTUS, and you have to sack it in one time, generating the mana all in one time, not be able to chose later and without making a body in play, PLUS black lotus goes in your graveyard, and it's way harder to bring back on the battlefield, uh and it's ofc BANNED in commander.
Speaking of casual commander, wild growth, utopia sprawl, are already superpopular choices, with sol ring and signets/ talismans being in the top picked cards all along. Also all cards you mentioned are there to counter artifacts, but in a very inefficient way: culling ritual just makes you pay 4 to get no mana, cause of sac and float, and the remaining six are just too slow, with ouphie being the only choice, maybe along with manglehorn, (not even mentioned).
The fun part is that you claim u're running 7 on 99 cards just to counter artifacts that u're saying are not played, just ridicoulous.
Concluding, dockside is THE most broken card in cedh and edh right now. It's the best mana engine, the best 2 drop and just makes your t2 gigantic for no reason.
PS: if you think that primieval titan is better than dockside, just because can bring in a gaea's cradle, dude u're so wrong, it's just thousands time worse, i mean, it fkin cost 6.
Dockside will never generate 0 treasures. No one is going to play it on a board without artifacts and enchantments, and even at precon level gameplay, virtually every deck comes with a 8-10 mana rock package in addition to non-mana producing artifacts. Between artifacts and enchantments, I would say the average number is 20-30, usually increasing for non-precons--a full fifth of a deck, times 3 for each opponent.
The format is faster now precisely because of the amount of artifact fast-mana going around, and the exact reasons primeval titan was banned apply to dockside, except dockside is many degrees more problematic. Each subsequent dockside, either cloned/blinked/reanimated nets you literally exponentially increasing amounts of treasure. All at 1/3 the price of the titan and all enter untapped unlike the titan's lands.
Primeval titan at another level? That's pretty laughable. Really, the only advantage it has over dockside is utility. Dockside makes much more mana, immediately, for far less mana. And if you've ever played against dockside, you know that there is never only one trigger.
Wow! Well done! This was very insightful and put things into perspective.
Thanks for your great work!
As someone whos been playing since ice age a 2 mana 1/2 is on curve 😂
I'm not about banning cards but dockside has to be the #1 or #2 card in red
Wouldn't ban anything🤷♂️
Of course.
The only game I've felt an opponent's Dockside was justified, was when I had 80 artifacts solider creature tokens in my Myrel, Shield of Argive deck hahaha.
dont think dockside should be banned. I'd be fine with thassas oracle. Been wish Rhystic Study would be banned from any and all formats since 2000.
Aged like milk
Bla bla bla, i only listen "i like dockside please no ban", dockside is a problem, only ban it.
totally agree, all tho i only hear " bla bla bla, please no ban as i will lose money"
Lol fr. “Dockside isn’t a problem,” then proceeds to pull out a red (wubrg) cEDH deck that easily combos with dockside. Play a non red (non-blue so you can’t copy dockside) deck in cEDH against a pod of dockside najeelas and seriously tell me it isn’t a problem. Maybe it would be fair if mana crypt and soul ring weren’t the best cards in all of commander, and it wasn’t formatted to also count enchantments and just artifacts
Ladies and Gentlemen... we got him
Keep making them
Just be honest with yourself. You don't want the card to be banned because it would not be financially viable for yourself ;). With everybody playing mana rocks early game, saying that this does not generate a reliable mana advantage even early game is simply being selectively blind. If hullbreacher was banned, this must be banned.
Well this didn't age well 😅
wellllll....
Worst analysis
Lol
Your arguments are stupid.
The card enables 5 color blue soup decks way too easily, it's a ritual, a "stax" piece and invalidates land hate like blood moon, back to basics, winter orb and it's a combo piece on a stick. The card is meta warping you don't see blood moon played anymore thanks entirely to dockside, dockside ensures that no one plays cards like blood moon and that the person playing it is never ever punished for playing 5 color blue soups. Pure artifact hate cards like collector ouphe are fine because they're only hate pieces they don't double up as combo piece, mana rituals while making a whole subset of cards to be almost unplayable.
cEDH cannot handle dockside and it must be banned for cEDH health.
wrong
Or right?
@@vex_mtg Nope wrong
My friend trying to explain that is not that broken while he has a Korvold (cost 5) and 9 draws and 9 mana turn 2
Then Saw in half dockside ☠️☠️☠️
Lol