Why the Sparta you know Never Existed
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 พ.ค. 2024
- Classical Sparta was very different from the austere hyper-militarized society of popular myth…
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Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
1:31 The notoriety of Sparta
2:17 Spartan education
2:49 Life of a Spartan citizen
4:56 Spartan women
5:46 Helots
7:06 The Spartan Mirage
7:43 Life in Sparta was not spartan
9:00 Spartan armies were not invincible
10:10 Sparta was not the antithesis of Athens
11:34 Plutarch's Sparta
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I wonder as an historian if you have ever come across a artifact or writings contemporary that mention the spartans as gay lovers.....I have only come across one....and that was from their enemies in a time of war....did the spartans make gay statues......did Xenophon who had his children enrolled in spartan training and wrote about the spartans....did xenophon say they were gay......
I heard that the myth of Spartan Supremacy was mostly the result of aristocrats from other city states like Athens. Who felt that democracy was making their societies weak and decadent and giving lower classes too much power. So these aristocrats who wrote most of the history created this mythology as a way to idealize what society should be like.
Is there truth to this theory?
I also always had a problem with the mythology of Sparta because it has been used to promote very awful beliefs and actions. For example Hitler spoke fondly of the Spartans for there society because it subjected those who were "weak"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia#Nazi_Laconophilia
Long story short: most things that we know about Sparta are lies or exaggerated facts?
@@samburdge9948 I have a feeling that the political agenda of the modern western civilization is contributing to this gay stuff propaganda
Just about the only service sending you an axe to cleave your enemy's head. 😂
“The Spartans always lived in the shadows of their own myths.”
So succinctly summarized.
Repent and believe the gospel. Jesus will judge
@@camilosanchez831 brother in christ what are you doing 💀💀💀
@@camilosanchez831 literally the last straw. I am deconverting because of this obnoxious comment
@@camilosanchez831 Jesus is only a man albeit a blessed prophet but still a man
@@abdirahmanhassan1848 Jesus is the Word, and he will return, to judge the living and the dead.
Nobody tell Joe Rogan his entire worldview would crumble
He'll always have his chimps
For the last month Joes been bringing up ancient history a lot and Jesus Christ he has no idea what he’s talking about.
Spartans did DMT?
@@johnladuke6475 Dying Mad at Thermopolis yep checks out
You just let him live in your head rent-free don't you?
Spartan general once famously wrote a letter back home that said and I quote exactly "Ships sank what do"
Big brain spartan moment
‘what do ships sink?’ sounds more logical
My two friends whose entire knowledge base of Ancient Greece & Sparta that was derived from the movie '300' will be devastated by this. Shame on you, Garrett.
Hollywood is a brain washing machine for propaganda purposes.
If you have to tell them, at least soften the blow by sharing those hardcore quotes at the beginning of the video.
@@toldinstone lol
Wait untill you tell him about the .. Ancient Greeks .. were actually Hypobrorean .. theory. So the story goes that the descriptions in the Odyssey and Illiad don't match up to modern day grace and turkey , that if you go back and reread the chapters describing the Agean sea..it matches .. match for match the Baltic. The Ancient Greeks were really from the Baltic region and then migrated to what is now greece and mixed in with population and retold stories of their ancestors and the descendants retold those stories of hercules and zeus in their modern geograhical understanding. .. It's possible that the infamous SEA PEOPLE mentioned by the Egyptians were the TROJANS.
@I never look at replies lol also please tell your friends that Spartan males were bi-sexual, that’ll really get’em!
Honestly these guys just sound like barbarians with a good PR department.
I know right. Drinking halls and shit. Ultimately all humans share the same basic interests.
It’s ironic you used the word barbarian seeing as it comes from the word bárbaros which was used to describe non Greek speaking people, but yes you’re right , they were basically savages that had enough wit to appear as a sophisticated SWAT team in the history books.
They sound like Nazis.
Exactly. I have a baseline respect for the badassery but Spartan society really sucked, on balance. Plenty of other cultures were also militaristic and successful, without being so parochial and stubbornly obsessed with physical prowess (and keeping down a massive slave class).
that's why they are so perfect
future is for the strong
The way you described them, the Spartans were in many ways a forerunner of a medieval feudal state; A spear point of hardcore infantry economically supported by a shaft of second-class citizens and serfs.
they remind me a lot of the Southern States of America (especially before the civil war).
Because that never happened anywhere else, or at any point in history... Clearly.
This was the standard of the time. Athens also had a similar system, though it was less embedded in their culture and was never mythologised like the Spartans.
@@trillionbones89 Yeah me too. The Confederacy with a better army.
The same than in the democratic Athens.
My boyfriend: "So '300' is basically Roman fan fiction."
With Eva Green.
Not exactly. Romans looked down on Spartans as a very anachronistic culture from an older era, so they might have emphasized some of the aspects of Spartan culture they found odd. Spartans were so obsessed with tradition that they handicapped themselves and paved the way for their fall. They refused to allow outsiders to become Spartan, which runs counter to how Romans viewed identity. Rome was successful because any man could become Roman by adopting the culture. Sparta withered and died because nobody could become Spartan, they had to be born Spartan. So they always remained a small elitist population incapable of expansion and constantly living in fear of their slaves rising up.
Fascist fan fiction yeah
Nah, it’s an accurate account of how the Spartans viewed themselves
The 300 was real it just didn’t play out like the movie, there were other Greeks but the part where they stayed behind is true. Thermopylae was a real battle.
loved you on BBC History Extra! such a surprise hearing you there after turning off your videos and going to sleep to a podcast… YOU CANNOT BE ESCAPED
On BBC History Extra? I wasn't aware of that, thanks for telling, I will search for it.
Can you give us the link?
yeah! please give us a link! i need it
@toldinstone how you ain’t told us you were on BBC bruh
@@starcapture3040 its on spotify, probably everywhere else too
According to Hollywood, Spartans had British accents.
@@MrFirefox But Spartans did have British accents though.
Scottish accents
Uhhh no, no way, spartans are from greece, they didnt have a british accent
they have a pinoy accent
And the historian whom wrote Spartan history was named Frank Miller
😅
@@WesterlyWilderness Scotland is technically in Britain.
So many popular history channels put entertainment above accuracy. It's always nice to see a new upload from toldinstone: the events themselves are interesting enough, you don't need to treat the viewer like a child that has to be lured to learn to the point where only the most spectacular sources are consulted, usually superficially This video i the exact opposite of that. Good work, keep it coming!
My exact sentiment.
Agreed.
Did you even watch the video...? It confirmed just about every popular idea is accurate, as far as we know.
@@vanivanov9571I was thinking about the same thing
@@OzzieTheHead Good to find another thinking human being.
Xenophon's Lakedaimonion Politeia describes the Lycyrgus's constitution and how the Spartans weren't following all of it's laws. Opposite of Herodotus and Plutarch, Xenophon lived years with Spartans in campaign and some years in Sparta. He clearly admired the Lacedaemonians but is somehow honest about their flaws. Aristotle many years later also describes Lacedaemonia as a falling state.
It was by Aristotle's time, yes. By then, the days of the Agoge and Lycurgan law were long gone.
I haven't read Herodotus, but Plutarch's accounts admit that the Spartans had moved away from their traditional laws. His biographies of Agis and Cleomenes describe their attempts to return to the laws of Lycurgus.
Aristotle was biased, he was Macedonian.
The last class I took for my bachelors was a topic class on Sparta. Truly interesting to realize how little we know for sure. It's a shame the Spartans didn't write more down (or at least that more of what was written isn't still extent) so we could get more about their society from their own perspective.
Im sure they wrote stuff since they have their own upper class and middle class but many of them already destroyed. It was the middle ground between Europe and Asia soit was a contested ground between various power from Rome to Ottoman.
most history is cloudy.. even if we go back to 1940s (80 years) you still have debates as to who was what...and you know.. JFK magic bullet, Did Lyndon do it, etc? . We go back to 1805 (125 years) during Napoleon we still have thousands of books written on Napoleon and the Coalition and its cloudy.. but most of us have not even read 1 or 2 books about this ourselves but just take into account of what our TEXTBOOKS told us or now ...youtube video sourcing compilations of other books.
now going back 1000 years and its all mixed up and 1 or 2 books are the ones we know because the rest just got mixed up or got compiled into one book which are the ones we know. Then comes the question of ntionalism, burnings, lost knowledge and revisionsim - not in our time but from 100,200,300 years ago.. and things get even more cloudier.
Then you have hollywood that says' forget all that.. no , they were out there in speedos with red capes yelling Aroo, oh and Xerxes was some Liberacci dude with gold chains everywhere
So, not Lacedaemonians? Calling them Spartans makes as much sense as calling all English people Londoners. I mean, we get the term laconic from their direct and to the point manner of speaking. Why aren't we using a term like Spartic? You know, because they were Spartans, apparently...
@@theressomelovelyfilthdownh4329 ok dude
@@theressomelovelyfilthdownh4329 Too common, you need to be specific when talking about a country ruled by two kings 28 senate and 5 ephors. Sparta as a city also survive into medieval age, only destroyed when Mehmed pull the plug on the last Roman Empire. Burning and looting it to the ground and probably the main reason why we hardly find any remains of old Sparta.
Imagine a movie from the perspective of a helot whose family suffered greatly under the helot wars, and then is drafted for the Corinthian War. During the conflict he learns a fatal flaw of the Spartan phalanx, and when an opportunity to fake his death and escape presents itself he takes it. He then runs to Thebes, tricks his way into an audience with the king and proposes a daring strategy for the battle of Leuctra.
Did you at any point stop to think how ludicrous that sounds?
@@derrickstorm6976As a movie plot? Not the worst thing. As a historical event? This kind of thing almost certainly would've happened.
I recommend the graphic novel "Three" which deals with Helot runaways facing off against their Spartan masters.
Lol america is so sick with marxism they will romanticize any low life and a traitor because he did some harm to "the oppressors"
Will you ever understand that being oppressed, poor or simply from the lower class of society is not a virtue?
There was not a king in Thebes. At least by that time.
I think after Oedipus and Kreon, they had enough.
According to Herodotus, the "fight in the shade" line is attributed to Dienekes, the bravest soldier who died at Thermopylae. Herodotus, being the earliest source, should probably trump Plutarch and Cicero.
Herodotus being earliest doesn't necessarily mean his account is the most accurate on all things. As an example of one area where he was not, he has the size of the Persian army at Thermopylae as 2.6 million...a completely fantastical figure.
@@lycaonpictus9662 I agree that Herodotus' numbers should not be taken at face value (and ancient numbers in general should be questioned), but Herodotus was alive when the battle of Thermopylae occurred, and wrote less than fifty years later, possibly within living memory of some participants. He is better placed to know who said what. And, I should point out, that his is a major account of the events of the time.
It is also possible that he made up the quote, since it was entertaining, and later writers simply glommed the quote onto the more famous Leonidas. Ancient writers are infamous for putting words into the mouths of famous persons.
@@heatround102 Exactly. To quote in my source (Penguin Classics)"It is said that before battle, he was told by a native of Trachis, that, when the Persians shot their arrows, there were so many of them that they hid the Sun. [Said] Dieneces, ... 'This is pleasant news that the stranger from Trachis brings us: if the Persians hide the Sun, we shall have our battle in the shade.' "
Herodotus, the Histories, p. 519.
@@lycaonpictus9662 No one (absolutley no one)Truly knows, the number could have been 1 million, could have been 100000, decimal points are rascally like that, as is the passage of time.
@@yoremothra9838 Not to mention: we don't even have accurate specific numbers about modern war casualties, let alone historic ones from so long ago, so any numbers we are given should always be taken with the expectation of a fairly wide margin of error.
Helping me get through my long shift at work tonight. Thank you for blessing my break 🙏
Just got your book. It's the perfect toilet/bath book. Small chapters - easy to read while sitting or reclining for a while. Enjoying it so far. Exactly the kind of historical info I was hoping for, and I like the way that you place each question into its broader historical context.
I'm very glad you enjoy it!
@@toldinstone Indeed. Good job sir. Looove this period of history - so easy to empathise with theire values, yet so different as a society!
If you added some fiber to your diet you could read in a nice leather armchair. XD
@@Psychol-Snooper 😂😂
@@toldinstone I think I would have mixed feelings knowing that my book was admired for its ability to be read while shitting.
"It was considered acceptable for a spartan to ask a man whose strength he admired to sleep with his wife to produce a better son"
Who would've thought, Will Smith would have made a great spartan!
Or a viking! In viking culture it was more honourable to raise a child than to be their biological parent, so if a man went out raiding and returned to a pregnant wife, he was rarely angry and was more likely to view it as a blessing from Odin lol
@@Jane-oz7pp I seriously doubt that most Norsemen were so emasculated. What is your source for such a claim?
@@Jane-oz7pp In all honesty, a true Norseman would probably exile her cheating wife from the society in those cases.
@@Juubelimies Dude you’re applying your narrow view of the world to this. What makes you think they had the idea of a cuck back then? The word likely didn’t even exist yet. What is and isn’t masculine has changed over the years to a big degree. High heels used to be a working class mans shoe, for butchers. Now it’s a high-class woman shoe.
@@Juubelimies None.
Thank you so much for this unique ancient content! I thouroughly enjoy every video.
Very funny your self-made advertising. That convincing grin while showing a somewhat awkward-looking handbag, priceless!
That segment took me a few takes - the handbag kept catching on the edge of my desk
@@toldinstone I am being humble when I am telling you that I am the most powerful strongest coolest smartest most famous greatest funniest Y*uTub3r of all time! That's the reason I have multiple girlfriends and I show them off all the time! Bye bye tol
This is the Sparta I knew existed.
It was truly a unique society and worthy of study. Their refusal to change anything stifled their growth and eventually their elite ruling class became too small to maintain itself and the system collapsed. Even so, the fact that they ever became anything more than a rural farming village adept at defending itself from raiders is noteworthy - but they were a mighty and feared regional power for a couple of centuries!
I think there are certain parallels with other successful warrior societies like the Mongols, Comanche, or Zulu. But the Spartans achieved renown with the defense at Thermopylae in service to the Greek world, even if they also did it for themselves.
I think, in many ways, Sparta was an example of the more classical and provincial city state in Ancient Greece... the fact of their fighting spirit, whilst somewhat defining in certain periods, was largely paired with their more old fashioned, less resource abundant society, maybe, somewhat closer to the pre-Olympic Greece common of the Homeric period in nature. in a situation where demonstrative consumption is impossible for the higher classes, it is only natural they would try to define themselves either through religious association or through appearance of physical poweress... with mythology and war arts becoming center stage in the hierarchy
Resulting, we see a slightly different spread of power... i.e. if temples and the top nobility had a measure of wealth the social order was much more defined by the mass of lower nobles, who, unlike in richer cities, would live more communal & comparatively austere lives. some close to the top could have a material culture, but it was to small to become a factor..
in many ways, I think, like Macedonia, Spartans just did not build up the layer of softer pursuits and high-society many others did, and, realizing that as their one trait, used it over time to give themselves a defining edge.
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 It interesting to think the Romans avoided this by essentially making their own "Helots" a part of government (Plebians)... (however i am vastly ignorant of Spartan history.. so maybe they tried it..?. somehow I doubt it)
@kelvyquayo no, whilst the Plebeians might have had similar roles in terms of
there economic role, their social role was nothing like it...
the Helots, though they maybe used for labor, were primary a ritually accepted prey and sacrifice, something, more akin to the role of gladiators in Rome
accepting Helots into the government was like accepting a horse into the ranks of the Roman senate.... oh wait, that actually happened😶...
You should look at the history of Kleomenes III. Sparta almost rebuilt itself as a reformed empire.
And despite there being 10,000 other fighters at Thermophylae besides the Spartan Hoplites... 3000 spartan light infantry (periokoi IIRC) and 7000 thessalians...
The reason why there were only 300 Spartan Hoplites there is also noteworthy: they were busy with a local religious festival and didn't dare to break it off to go to war, so only one of their two kings went with a minimal number of soldiers to put up a roadblock allowing a more sturdy defense after the festival.
They never got around to send the full army out though and Persia had pretty free reign of anything north of Boiotia for that year, only going home when their fleet had a weather based accident, cutting their main supply line.
the year after (or maybe 2 years later, don't remember precisely), at Plataia the Spartans were ironically late AGAIN due to another festical having to be finished before marching out...
But that ended the Persian Wars, Greece stayed free and could a generation later start its own internal war between the allies of sparta and Athens. After that Sparta was never again a major power in the region, going down first when Alexander united Greece and then in the mid 3rd cventury when Rome finally came calling... that was the end of mythical Spartan invincibility.
The irony here is that spartans were a totalitatarian opressive society which viewed the persians as opressors, it was the opposite
Oddly enough that is an extremely accurate statement. The Spartans never even considered themselves Greek. And their divine mission was to subjugate the whole peninsula. The Persian empire was a lot like the later Roman Empire. Pay your taxes, dont start trouble and you largely got left alone.
Spartans were not an oppressive society. Every citizen was honoured bound to participate in society. Are you referring to how they dealt with their enemies?
I just ordered your book, thank you for all the valuable education you have provided during during my free time!
Garret, your speaking voice is exquisite. Thank you.
I think you mentioned an upcoming video on Roman mosaics. I'm really looking forward to that if it's in the works!
@@rottingravensblood9106 Hello, Bald & Bankrupt.
great video, so informative! The treatment of the Helot; I never knew.
Anyone interested in further puncturing of the Spartan Myth should seek out the blog "A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry" by History Professor Bret Devereaux, specifically his series "This. Isn't. Sparta." From his perspective the only real longterm successes of Spartan society was perpetuating itself by casting out anyone who threatened their famed stability, even as wealth and political power consolidated and the population of citizens (not the population of the region, just Spartiates) atrophied.
Your book was superb, and thanks for the videos.
Hi Garrett,
Fascinating channel. Just ordered the book. Wanted to know, do you ever do library events in the Chicagoland area like a short class and:or book signing?
Best!
Tom
I first had my suspicion when Athens asked for Sparta's help during the Persian invasion, and the excuse of Sparta not helping was that Sparta had some festival.
Well to be fair, that wouldn't really be any good evidence against the traditional legendary view of Sparta. People in the ancient world took their religious rites and superstitions much more strongly than we really can conceive of today.
If the Spartans had refused to come because of the festival it wasn't so much "Well, we are having a party that we don't want to miss" and more "This is an important religious event and if we violate the prescriptions or commit some kind of sacrilege the gods may literally destroy our city". In other words, Festival was much less of a Modern Renaissance Fair and more like Sunday Catholic Mass with the Eucharist.
The Romans, hardly known as a sentimental people, stopped or delayed entire wars because the omens were wrong.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug Well said.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug I disagree,the Spartans have a history of tactical delays due to "festivals",battle of Marathon was a prime example
Plutarch (for what little he's worth) actually said this story from Herodotus (also for what little he's worth) is false. According to Plutarch the Spartans sent help right when asked. They just didn't arrive to the battle in time.
Considering that the standard pace of march for a pre-modern army on foot on active campaign was 20~25km a day pretty much world-wide and throughout history, and a completely mounted contingent could make 40~60km a day, and Herodotus seem to suggest the Spartans made 70~80km a day over 3 days (though depending on how you interpret what Herodotus wrote it could be 4 days and as low as 40~50km a day), and there's no reliable record of Spartans or any pre-modern army on foot making this fast a march ever again, for this I am inclined to think Plutarch's version is more likely to be the truth. Rather than the Spartans waited 6 days and then marched for 3 (or 4) days, most likely they gathered their troops and set out as fast as they could and marched as fast as they could for about 10 days to 2 weeks, and missed the Battle of Marathon by a day or two.
@@milesy343 did they frequently move their festivals around to random times during the year? If not, and if the calendar was publicly known then I don't really think you can call this "tactical", since it is not something that they would have planned for
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte. This is especially true if Hollywood is involved.
TiS with that 'aircraft safety briefing' energy in the sponsor section hahaha! Great video as always
I'm loving the creative censorship with the text box ;)
5:47
I thought about trying to draw a fig leaf, but the text box seemed more elegant.
Great video on the controversial subject of Sparta. One little note: Indeed what we know of them comes from outsiders. Which is to be expected as Spartans themselves were secretive as it prevented others from copying their practices and further enhanced the myth around their name. One exception, however, might be Xenophon. He was a Spartan admirer, contemporary and personal friend of Agesilaus II and lived out his last years in Laconia. His works Hellenica and especially Agesilaus can be considered more accurate than those of later writers. In any case, congrats for the video.
Spartan practices weren't all that secret, as noble families frequently sent their sons to be raised by Sparta.
because of all the people to be the most truthful about themselves we should expect it to be the society that believed it's own hype too much
I remember hearing two spartan quotes both are by women. A son was complaining to his mother his sword was not long enough, and she said, “take one step forward, and now it is.” Another, a son was telling his mother he didn’t want to fight in war, she pulls up her skirt and says, “come and hide here, I’ll protect you.” I’m like those are some tough women! Never knew it was so romanticized. Still those are some cool quotes. 😂
Plutarch has a whole treatise on the "Sayings of Spartan Women." Great stuff.
@@toldinstone I still believe Spartan women were way tougher than me. 😂
It's like hearing Chuck Norris joke today😂
Cowardly boy.
'Come back with your shield or on top of it' is the one I remember.
Garret, your advertisement is the ONLY time I will happily watch an advertisement . I enjoyed it a lot . O yes, and your posting as well .
This was actually more or less what i was expecting. Informative video. Always appreciate objectively told history. Thank you sir
I'm in greece right now on a study trip, but how could i forget to watch your videos in the evening! You make awesome content Sir
Enjoy Greece! Been living here a few years now and loving every minute. Mind me asking which areas you've been to?
@@christiansky942 you're making me so jealous!
On this trip we visit some of the cycladic islands. We've been to Rhodes and Kos, right now we're on Samos, and after that we go to Delos, Mykonos, Paros, Naxos, Santorini and maybe Tinos.
I've also been to Athens, Delphi, Olympia and some other places on another trip 6 years ago. I love greece and love studying archaeology❤
@@muscledavis5434 haha well you're doing some pretty cool stuff which I can be jealous of. Very very cool. Samothraki is a super interesting island, with a mysterious archaeological site. The vibe on this island is 👍👍
@@christiansky942 then be both can make each other jealous somehow😂
Samothrake, is that where you live? Never been there unfortunately, but of course i have heared of it, and i saw the famous Nike of Samothrake in the Louvre
@@muscledavis5434 no, I live in Athens, and just had a chance to visit last summer.
For me, the missing link is to see the wonderful statue of Νίκη της Σαμοθράκης in the Louvre. One day!
This is some of the best history content in the world, thank you!
Really great info!
Your Bespoke Post show was quite funny, almost like the airliner security show before takeoff.
prisoners of legends of their own making- I cannot think of anything more stifling to a society.
Well done, Pard. I must also add that your segues into advertisements are the most inventive of any I have ever seen. I even watch the ads out of respect for your efforts. Thank you!
Counterpoint: far from being "prisoners", instead they had a legendary ideal that they aspired to live up for, and this motivated and inspired them.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug except it didn't. They slowly and painfully declined cutting off more and more of their society in a delusional bid to recreate a society that was never real
@@Laotzu.Goldbug While your point is valid and represents the positive aspect of such cultures, I would still somewhat side with the prisoner angle. Most citizens may be fine with living by the standards imposed by their legends, however the Spartans that for whatever reason did not enjoy or share aspirations with their traditions were most likely shunned and not free to pursue their personal goals.
You mean like Catholic doctrine that demanded obedience to papal authority to ensure upright and noble citizens trained to engage others with biblical wisdom? Or maybe puritanical dogma that constricted all deviancy for the sake of upholding honor and decency in a prescribed and unalterable manner? Or maybe like the propaganda of the Aryan race that inspired an entire nation to fall into fascistic witch hunts for the disabled and “degenerate” to forge a pure ethnic state of warrior males nobly aligned to patriotic virtue and discipline? Or maybe Aztec mythology that demanded human sacrifices to appease blood gods, outright institutionalizing mass murder without pretense simply because their culture and traditions had brainwashed them into a collective Stockholm syndrome? The list goes on and on forever. Mythology and dogma will always be nothing more than a cage you trap yourself in because seeing yourself and others plainly and as they are is too uncomfortable, and stereotypes/prejudice is far easier.
You do what you do very well, and on top of that are actually *active* on TH-cam on a regular basis. You're a living legend my guy
*Anybody:* b-but Spartans fought for freedom!
*Helots:* allow us to introduce ourselves...
They _did_ fight for freedom. For their own freedom.
This may sound dramatic but your work is very inspiring! Thank you for the insightful videos. A true master at engaging the audience into thinking about the past in new ways.
there is one other saying regarding sparta and its spartan way of talking: Phillip II of Macedon threatened Sparta saying "If I invade Laconia, I shall turn you out"... the spartans answered with a single word... "if"
Wasn't that said to the Persian envoys when they invaded Greece much earlier on ???
@@kaloarepo288 i think Plutarch refers it to Phillip
After what Alexander did to Thebes, the Spartans gave no lip. They probably had an important religious festival to observe. Maybe a whole bunch of them, that would keep them busy for years.
@@christosvoskresye Not defiance but silence.
It's called being laconic. The region Sparta lays in is Laconia. There is also a town in New Hampshire named Laconia. I presume there are other towns with rhe same name.
This is the Sparta I expected, more or less
It is not even close and is a modern mythology of sorts.
My husband bought me your book for christmas and very good it is too :-)
Best ad transition ever! :D
Please keep doing what you're doing, your videos are just something else
It is said that Philip II of Macedon (Alexander the Greats father), after putting many greek city states into submission. sent a message to the Spartans warning them "If I invade Laconia, I shall turn you out." The spartans reply was just " If " Though Phillip then proceeded to invade devestate and turn them out.
I like to think Phillip sent a follow up message of " If what?"
Great video!⚔
Super interesting take at the end… we know for sure how they wanted to be portrayed
Sparta was a much poor country compared to the other great kingdoms of the times. With quotes from greek historians like:" a land not worthy to conquer" bc of the extraordinary strength of the Spartans and the very poor economy. Also you had other facts like them being amazed at the ornaments that the Persians had.
Spartan actually became a term for something being sparse or utilitarian.
@@GabiN64 Sparta -> Sparse. Never realized it, wow.
@@fatihsaidduran Sparse doesn't actually come from Sparta, it's from a word of Latin origin, 'spargo' meaning 'to scatter'.
Laconic however does, as does obviously the word spartan.
@@GabiN64 not really, a lot of things is true about Sparta its just that some stories got hyperbolized through time. But just them going against the strongest empire at the time and also winning the Peloponesean war proves us a lot about the strong and very harsh way of life Spartans went through.
@@hegemonstrategos3485 That doesn't refute what i said though about spartan being used as an adjective.
Spartan: "suggestive of the ancient Spartans; sternly disciplined and rigorously simple, frugal, or austere."
The mark of a _really_ good channel is that you're not upset to stop learning because the sponsor segment is just as good as the rest of the video. That deadpan product modeling was already pretty funny, but the little grin at the end is a real winner.
One of the only two channels where I dont skip the ads
Brilliant! Thank you.
There are so often differences between reality and romanticized versions. However, this difference doesn't diminish the beauty and validity of either version. Awesome video!
A romaticized version of war is not valid nor beautiful, it is pure madness.
There is a reason why the expression "If history doesn't terrify you it's probably fake" exists...
Valid in what way?
Beautiful in what way?
Sometimes fantasies are distractions and even traps. Sometimes they are aspirations, things we should try to be.
How would you separate the two apart?
Humiliating slaves in front of their children....
Teenage death squads....
Ah, the beauty of Sparta!
@@johnl9361 Yeah, most of these descriptions are legends of Plutarch, who lived hundreds of years after Lycurgan Sparta, and his anecdotes are either contradicted by or aren't mentioned by contemporary sources.
I thought it was the Lieutenant of Leonidas, Dionikus (spelling?) that replied: “Good, then we will have our battle in the shade.” (The battle was Thermopolye in August, being very hot).
Thanks for sharing
Ahhh I love your faces during your advertisment!
Pretty happy I didn’t skip forward over the advert
you could argue the greatest martial skill the spartans had, was talking a big game. they still have the most impressive idioms and have a type of speech named after them; laconic
Swords? Nah, around here we're masters of _marketing._
Yes, the Spartans thrived off psychological warfare, not coming to blows with their enemies. There's at least two battles where their enemies were so terrified of coming to blows with them that they trampled one another fleeing from them. They groomed themselves before battle, shined their shields, wore a uniform of crimson. They made themselves look terrifying to their enemies, seeing a slow marching, orgainzed battleline of crimson and bronze was enough to break the nerves off their enemies. But as the Thebans showed at Leuktra the Spartans weren't better fighters and if the men could stand their ground and fight they stood a fighting chance.
WoShi and Moises, y’all are both based history fans, you’re hired!
Nice vid !
I always speculating that Sparta didn't declare war on the Helots every year, or at least not originally, but the Helots simply rose up with such regularity against the Spartan BS that it felt like a regular annual war. Maybe in time Sparta did start declaring war because, eh, they're going to fight us anyway, but I highly doubt a society this oppressive was stable at all.
Some people today have a very justice orientated view of the classical world. It was a kill or be killed world in that era. There was no time for sensitive modern academia.
The name Leonidas is not a historically accurate name. Neither is the story of the 300 Spartans one hundred percent truthful. It’s an embellished version of history. Used by French kings as a way of inspiring soldiers to fight against difficult odds.
The real king Leonidas was not a king at all. He was more of a land owning statesman that married into money. His wife owned the lands he profited from.
He lost his marriage and lands because of some bad dealings. Was ordered to fight with the rest of the age worthy men in defense of the nation. Against the Persian invasion.
The story of the 300 soldiers was actually part of a much larger army. But people turned it into an old wise tale. Making it into militaristic propaganda after the war.
The comic series that Zack Snyder turned into a movie definitely doesn't help things, taking the story even further into fiction for the sake of fun. Not that we should be surprised that a Frank Miller work was just openly white supremacist propaganda.
Unfortunately your totally ignorant of Greek history
Xerxes demanded “surrender your weapons” nides said “come and take them” Xerxes proceeded to take them and took them, with nides’s head on top of them. Last time Leosomthinsomthin bluffed or was acting courageous.
great video!
So nice to see someone shed light on this. As cool as Sparta’s mythology is, it’s simply that. Mythology.
I always want to ask the people who take 300 as gospel: “If Sparta was so powerful and feared, why did they unceremoniously fade into the pages of history rather than forge an empire?”
? You're not making any point here. They were at one point a very strong city-state in themselves and they eventually started slipping from their previously radical ideas of militarization and strength. Then later on time they were taken by other Greek city-states who had eventually developed their own military prowess. And the Lacedaemonians never sought to take over foreign countries and to become a great empire. You're comparing them to the likes of Phillip or Alexander's Macedonians.
Great video again! I love that you shined a light onto Sparta's Great Lie. They weren't some ancient super duper warriors who shunned materialism. They were just like the rest of us with slightly better myth makers.
Best sales pitch EVER!
Good work
Soooo, basically a culture of ancient greek knights?
A warrior aristocracy, living lives of comparative luxury on the income from landed estates with their main duty being warfare, making them a cut above regular soldiers in training, élan and equipment.
Yep, that checks out
Some similarities to be sure, but they remind me a lot of north korea in many ways. A small, secluded and highly militarized nation where service to the state comes before all else.They were constantly at odds with the surrounding nations and even had their own secret police!
I think medieval knights may well have trained more than the Spartan homoioi. From my own lay understanding of the literature, it's not clear that the Spartans even did much serious training/drilling in peacetime, although they did drill themselves and their allies when on campaign, which is more than most of their contemporaries could manage.
@@acerld519I doubt they would have managed that 200-year dominance if they did not at least maintain SOME level of peacetime training, at least of the youths. If that training was rigorous enough, then enough discipline, cohesion and so on would be ingrained enough that a life of hunting, sports and so on would keep those habits if not sharp, then at least not too rusty, meaning that relatively little would be required to polish them back up to an adequate level.
@@acerld519 Knights actually suck at combat. Because not many of them are actually talented and inherited the title or responsibility because of inheritance law. Thats why in a fight between a knight and a mercenary, mercenary wins most of the time.
It's not really unique to Sparta by any stretch. Most of antiquity relied on slaves and/or a serf class in order to keep everything running.
98 meters seem to be the extent of sparta as it is the current world record.
This channel sustains me
well done...subbed
Boy, I wish I could live in the shadow of my own myth.
It was so weird the first time I hear it from Invicta (a YT channel), made me aware of the concept called "The Spartan Mirage" and how this fragment made me aware how much history ISN'T written by the victors but by those who wrote the version people accept. Sparta wasn't a winner in the long run yet their version of the story lived on...
Its more like the Roman version since they are the one who want to preserve them from Antiquity to the last day of Constantinople.
@@yulusleonard985 Yeah, it's all pretty nuanced. Typically historians are taught not to take sources at face value. Cross-referencing primary sources, chronological distance of the source from described events, archaeological records, known falsehoods, ancient stereotypes etc. are all taken into account.
It's not so much that ancient sources are 'written by the victor', but rather that most ancient sources didn't have the same standards, or institutions to impose them, that we do today. That is to say, they may be intentionally biased with a particular narrative in mind as part of their work; that is, they may not view their work as 'historical' in the way that we view the practice today, in spite of its contents describing real world people & events... Or they may just fill in the gaps of their knowledge with fanciful hearsay...
Or they may be 'writing for the victor', or to put it more directly, writing to appeal to an overlord; emperor, basileus, tyrant, polity, whomever. For example, often historical sources are not just written to make an entire 'victorious nation' look good, but to curry the favour of a dynasty/family/organization-- usually to the detraction of their predecessors, if those predecessor detract from their legitimacy.
"Well, such and such was evil and he liked to diddle children in the streets, many an ill-omen befell our city-- but our new guy, wow, what a stud!... and he smells great, too!"
In other instances we can see a particular bias being placed on events because it supports the author's worldview; kind of a mix of taking on an initial bias and appealing to your overlord's legitimacy. You could say the Spartan Mirage falls under this umbrella; it was probably useful to Romans to turn the Spartans into an idyllic metaphor for their own values. Another perfect example of this kind of bias would be the 'orientalism' argument pointing out the bias of European Imperial powers towards the history of Asia.
@@user-lh1wr9sr8m More about what left of them. We all know that Theban defeat Sparta but then Macedonian raze them to the ground. It just the area the Spartan used to live are battleground for various super power from Macedonian, Roman and finally Ottoman. Anything left standing already plundered or burned to the ground.
I mean they were the strongest Greek state for centuries. They lost that position to Thebes for a few decades and which then lost it to Macedon, and after another generation the rest was history.
@@yulusleonard985the Macedonians defeated them in battle, but they never razed Sparta to the ground. Neither did the Romans, though I think the Visigoths and the Slavs probably did some damage when the Roman empire was collapsing in the 5th and 6th centuries.
I'd love to see a video on the Helots, where did they come from and what happened to them?
I think the other Greeks forced the Spartans to free them because helots were still Greeks and thus shouldn’t be enslaved
They were born from tree roots, and the Spartans harvested them
Spartan citizenship was so exclusive that later in their history it my have shrunk to as few as 500 full citizens. Due to losses in war mostly.
Yeah that was one of Sparta’s big weaknesses. They wouldn’t assimilated conquered people as Spartan citizens so they could only replace war casualties by having spartan babies (and that’s a slow process)
They were actually a society that engaged in child sexual abuse as a matter of cultural practice and were a strictly caste based kingdom fighting against the pluralist Persian Empire.
Kind of like Brits today
The contradiction between the Spartans' supposed austerity and their large slave class should've made it obvious but nonetheless we are so informed on the ancient Greeks by myth. Great video.
When everyone has slaves, that guy who carries his own water jug _all the time_ is hardcore.
The Spartans did mostly live a spartan lifestyle.. The state owned most of the land and slaves and there was laws in place restricting men from a massing wealth.. Women held much of the private wealth.. Men were alloted land and slaves by the state and upon their death it was returned to the state they could aquire more for themselves but there was rules around this
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 Interesting, how did you learn this?
@@Daniel-ox1sb there's is period detailed accounts of both their political structure and their trade habits and legal principals. You can search it your self.. The world exists outside TH-cam
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 I was hoping you got it from a book which I could read. Kind of weird you can't tell me where your research comes from but that's fine.
Thanks!
Deeply appreciated!
toldinstone guy cagey af on camera love it
I'd love more Greek stuff.
Be careful what you wish for. 😂
lmaoo 😂😂
Greek city states: "the spartans are the truest of true men, they are unbeatable"
Thebes: "what we need is 200 pairs of gay lovers"
proceeds to destroy spartan hegemony for centuries
Oh god to be honest I would have hated to grow in spartan civilization. But its interesting to learn about their life.
From outdoor goods to live oysters. Now that's variety
I have often wondered why some towns in the ancient world had alternative names e.g.Sparta was also called Lacaedamon and Troy was also known as Ilion.Perhaps because of invasions when one group invaded and introduced a new name but the old one still lingered on?
Troia and Ilion (Wilion) are named after their founder Tros and his son Ilos (Wilos). Don't know about the other cities, but interesting question and hope you get a more complete answer.
@@magichands135 Yes the Hittite records mention a people known as the Wilusa that occupied the area where the ruins of Troy and that probably explains the name "Ilion."
Countries to this day have different names in different places, ie Spain is España. Combine that with the effects of the passage of time.
There's a few ways for a place to have many names. Manhattan and Brooklyn aren't exactly the same thing, but they're both New York. Sometimes the change doesn't come from invaders; Persia became Iran and Burma became Myanmar basically because the people in charge said so. Translations (and the dialects that produce them) can have an effect as well - old-time Bombay is the same place as today's Mumbai.
@@johnladuke6475 Well Persia equaling all of Iran comes from a Greek misunderstanding that the province of Persis referred to the entire state
Someone fact check me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Helot class eventually revolt against the Spartans, and by allying with other city states they won and ended up building a giant wall through Laconia; which ya know is such a great insult against the people who said, 'our spears are where Sparta ends', I mean they didn't call themselves 'Spartans', but anyways I always that was really ironic. Also, I feel like you forgot to mention just how gay they were.
TH-cam will utterly annihilate any channel that dares to post a video where "being gay" is mentioned in any other way than as means to glorify someone. Not even a neutral, scientific approach will be admitted. Not to mention that they change these unwritten rules as they please and when they please, thus, staying away from the subject (or, of course, glorifying it) is the preferred course of action for most content creators. Cheers.
I think you might mean helot not hoplite btw. There was never a wall built through Sparta though. They basically just faded out of importance, having been crippled by the war with Athens. They couldn’t maintain their population, and by the time the Roman’s came they were a joke already.
Hoplites are the soldier class of Athens. And they where not gay, but they where quite homophobic.
@@georgetsapekis what did they call the slave class then? (Helots and Hoplites are very similar words) Sorry always had trouble remembering ancient Greek; also they were homophobic yes, but that doesn't mean they weren't also having gay sex, both can be true.
@@conwaytwittyer2667 The slave class was called Helotes. They are pronounced ilot-es and hoplites are pronounce oplit-es. Those words are still in use today in modern Greek. Homosexual relationships go back as far as the Human existence. However, the notion that ancient Greece was a place where homosexuality was accepted or a prominent behaviour falls quite far from the truth.
Sparta myths were popularized when it became a tourist spot for Romans.
I went to Milton Hershey School. Home of the Spartans. We learned a lot about the mythos of Sparta
Bet they didn't teach you anything about Sparta's compulsory homosexuality.
I think all the Sparta 300 fanbois have moved on to vikings on the TeeVee.
😂
The second worse thing after the realization of Santa's nonexistence
Loved the video. Thats why I want to imagine more "Legionary workouts" rather than "Spartan workout" haha
This reminds me of St. Augustine's observation in CITY OF GOD that the Roman Republic, as repeatedly defined in idealized terms by the Romans themselves, had never actually existed. I daresay the same could be said of the idealized version of any nation.
Yeah it’s pretty true I’d say. The issue with both Sparta and Rome is the issue with who’s lense we read it through. Europeans writing of Romans in the early modern period painted them to be basically the descendants of Atlantis. Sparta likewise was hyped up not only by themselves, but also by Romans who glorified them as well.
It’s kind of cringe when people paint them out to be literal super humans. They had plenty of time to train and has decent weaponry. No other nation at the time had a dedicated military, most armies were literal citizens and peasants quickly grabbed from the fields and shops, so it’s no surprise Spartans could beat them.
If the Spartans faced a Roman legion from the first century bc it likely would’ve resulted in an annihilation for them.
I really like the idea of Sparta during roman times as a kind of a Maasai village constructed for Latin tourists that come to Greece to see the "still living traditions of martial prowess" or something like that. Reality probably wasn't that far from this vision :D
*actual Spartans watch 300:
"wtf....." LOL
6:19 heard those Spartans loved their boys alittle too much...
Spartan women are a really interesting topic, because Sparta was a city-state that was very friendly to women in politics. How they would enter politics would be through ridiculous amount of cash that they would accumulate, as women in Sparta had the right to poses and inherit the money and properties of their dead relatives (husbands, sons, brothers etc.) who were in abundance due to Sparta being a warlike society. In fact women would achieve such power and wealth in Sparta that Aristotle would complain that Sparta became a "gynocracy", was practically ruled by the women who were controling their husbands. For the reasons that Sparta wasn't a patriarchal society and that women held enormous power, the rest of the Greeks of the time looked upon them as a gender deranged society. The very same Aristotle would claim that the reason why Spartan power declined so fast in the 4th century BC was because women attained too much power. So ironically, while Athens is celebrates for its democracy (for men only), Sparta would become far better place for women!
Really interesting point, women needed to be strong to have strong sons ipso facto they got to be strong👍 so since everyone values strength there’s no obvious way to disempower women - unlike the Athenians who alienated their women: didn’t educate them, married them off very young to much older men and whisked them out of their childhood homes into isolation at their husbands household where they weren’t allowed out much…. Interesting point Athenians had a very gay friendly (for men) society - while we applaud that, it is worth examining the evidence for highly stressed pregnancy experiences being correlated with increased prevalence of homosexuality in offspring. The Athenians didn’t look after their women very well - they had whole fighting units of gay guys, Spartans valued their women (to a point) and Athenians after getting their butt kicked for 200 years said the decline and fall of Sparta was due to females🤔 Right🤦
Only elite Spartie women had these privileges and no they were a patriarchy woman were not allowed to hold office become kings or speak in the apella
Women ran the Spartan economy but had no political power.