A couple of things that might not have reached your side of the pond yet. - Nibe have a "Ground Source" PV/T system, where the Solar Thermal collector can be used instead of or in addition to a ground loop with their ground source heat pumps. - A German company (Fraunhofer) is further experimenting with hybrid ground+PV/T loop installations. Which will automatically use whichever loop is warmer (e.g. PV/T during the day, and the ground loop at night) for home heating, or whichever is cooler for cooling in summer. It also has some other benefits, e.g. the ground loop can melt snow off the PV/T array in winter, so snow coverage on solar panels is no longer an issue. It can also use the Solar Thermal to warm/recharge the ground in summer ready for winter, or to allow smaller boreholes. Who knows when that level of control becomes available though.
I truly appreciate your pragmatic approach to heating and cooling. I personally think that most of us in Colorado can get by with a hybrid system and cut our nat. Gas consumption by 60+ percent and still Make a huge difference in what we burn. Only wish more contractors and HVAC specialists would offer these options and also be willing to retro an air source heat pump into existing furnaces when they are modern enough to makes sense to keep. I have a 95% Trane Furnace that’s been extremely reliable and I spoke to 3 HVAC companies who wouldn’t entertain replacing my compressor only for a heat pump. All wanted to toss the whole system.
Thanks! Glad you enjoy it. The Mitsubishi intelliheat is a good option for this. If the furnace is 20 years old that might be why they’re saying that but if it’s a newer system you should be able to find someone willing to just do the heat pump.
@@TheHVACDopeShow thank you for the reply… wasn’t expecting one. I will research this Mitsu model but I was leaning toward using my Ecobee thermostat and its dual fuel function to add a heat pump and A coil and the Ecobee will run the A coil until I reach a certain temp and then hand off to the furnace.
I am a retired HVAC professional and have installed pump and dump systems, the COP is high but doesn’t account for the well pump. IMO on a new home the money spent on making your HVAC system more efficient would be better spent on making the home more efficient. Most Geothermal systems are at least 10K more expensive and only yield a marginal increase in efficiency over today’s mini splits. I started doing heat losses when manual J was actually manual, the eye opener was how 50% of the load was air inflation. With a budget of 10K you could reduce the air inflation and energy consumption of a typical home by 75% and eliminate the cost of a ducted system with several mini splits which will also allow for zoning. This has been my observation spending my entire career in the industry.
Insulation is most important that’s for sure, we’ve reduced tonnages by 30% or more sometimes just by blowing in attic insulation, makes a huge difference. I think geo is a good option if you live off grid, where it’s super cold, and you’re choosing between expensive propane or oil bills. Besides that I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze most of the time. Cool technology but not cost effective by any means
@@TheHVACDopeShow the one invention I thought of although it’s just an adaptation of ancient technology is having the condenser fed air from an earth tube. It’s geothermal in a sense but zero complexity.
I like my pump and dump systems. My cost is less than 200 / year and my well pump is less than 50/year. I diy installed , my current one for less than 3k. Insulating the house is certainly a plus.. but if you can diy it.. it's great !
@@ronludington5393 I have installed them as well and always thought just running the water from the well directly through an H2O coil in the ducts would cool most homes without the need for a compressor.
@paulmarc-aurele5508 maybe with several coils, it might take more surface area to cool the air with just 60 degree water. The fan would have to run constantly too. Not sure where the condensation would go though.
Suggest talking about use of radiant heat and cooling with hot and cold water from the heat pump. and extremes of heat and the need for cooling in summer : air to air/air or water heat pumps are inefficient over 100 F ....
Could you run several houses or building off a single geothermal well? Could you network several houses together to provide geothermal heating and cooling to each one as a separate unit and gain some cost savings?
I don't know that you'd save money the loops have to be pretty big but you could do this for a multifamily / condo type of building and that would make sense but I'm honestly not sure about shared geothermal loops
@TheHVACDopeShow Nice video. So how does zoning work with geothermal? I like my bedroom cold but my living room warm. Or let’s say I wanted to heat my pool while I am cooling my house in the hot summer of St. George. Thanks!
Hello, thank you for your explanation, several countries in the world seasonal air temperature and water are above 35 degrees we can use this condition to produce electricity and fresh water other products that I mentioned my profile.
This might be a ridiculous question but why not build a giant box around your heat source heat pump condenser during the winter months? Aren't you fighting efficiency because the air is so cold?
I'm also curious about this. I have 2 solariums attached to my house. Is there any reason I shouldn't install my heat pumps inside of these rooms. I'm in central Ontario.
If you put a box around an air source heat pump you are effectively creating a refrigerator, and the air inside that box/room will become colder than the outside air while trying to heat the home.
Correct it’s pulling heat out of the air, so the box will essentially not replenish the unit with any heat to transfer and essentially get so cold inside the box it stops working… if you put your hand over the air of a condenser in heat pump mode in the winter you’ll see it’s actually blowing cool air outside so it’s just reversing the cycle we enjoy in the summer that cools down our house.
There is technically heat even in subzero temps all the way down to 0 K (zero kelvin) which is a theoretical number at will all electrons and matter ceases movement and there is no heat left. In Fahrenheit it’s the equivalent of -459.67 F… COOOOOLD
Why would efficiency improve? Technically yes, heat pumps are more efficient with a higher delta T, but they also have to do more work. Even though the work is done more efficiently, it's still more. Air source is nearly always fighting delta T, warm air outside and you want cold air inside, or cold air outside and you want warm air inside. Ground is more often than not a lower delta T between what you want and the ground temp.
Yeah I agree efficiency would probably decrease. Ground source has substantially higher COP’s year round and doesn’t drop that much when it’s subzero and gets really cold. There was another commenter that posted about a system I wasn’t aware of that uses solar loops and ties into geothermal heat pump ground loops so your ground loop can melt snow off the panels, and also the heat from the panels can augment the ground loops. That seems like a very smart design. Older solar water / hydronic loops had a reputation of breaking down / leaking but hopefully the newer ones are more reliable.
You didn't mention the type of soil ........... Is Colorado mountain rock is good for Geo Wells? How about sandstone or lime stone? What is the best deep soil material for a GEO well?
Softer soils are better than hard / rocky granite etc obviously as that affects the drilling cost but that varies widely. I don't have any experience with drilling, hoping to have the drilling contractor we know on the show as a guest to give more insight.
I have well water being pumped through my geo. 😮 I bought this house and it's a very high end model. Seems to maintain pressure and has a decent COP as per the gauges which are all digital.
Solar. Anyway, I think he was meaning that you're too far out to run gas lines but you can run electrical lines much further, so you can still be on the electrical grid but not have access to gas
I live in town. I have 10,080 watts of solar. Grid tied net metering. Have had zero bills since solar started up. 7 + years now. Am currently buying more panels 30 390watt canadian solar. For $112 apiece. Brand new delivered. 71.5 kwh worth of 5 powerpro wall batteries $16,885 delivered. Am going to be able to just go off grid. 3400sqft of all electric house. Won't have to worry about load levelling. (Not running my 2stage compressor when I'm welding) If my utilitie company ever gets rid of net metering. They are trying all the time. Until they do I will be building up a much bigger credit. They have to pay me out. When I go off grid. Plus those prices are before the 30% tax credit. So yah if you are way off grid. You could have a mansion and not sacrifice on anything. Geothermal helps reduce the size of solar needed dramatically.
Also off grid (or still connected to grid but middle of nowhere out in the boonies with no gas lines) you’re choices for fuel are propane / oil which is expensive to heat with. A geo gives you plenty of capacity and cost savings vs. propane and oil normally makes it feasible financially
@@danmccoy6164 I am going to go solar soon. The crappy house I am in has 2x4s holding up the roof. I pay a guy who weighs 110 pounds to clean it off periodically, and it really shakes when he is up there. I think adding solar would kill it. I am going to get some shipping containers soon and add solar to the top. Also this house is a stepping stone and I don't want to invest too much money into it that others would not value when I move on. For the batteries I am going to get my own lifepo4 battery cells from alibaba. They currently cost about $70 each, and 1kwh each. mb30 is the new chemistry for 10,000 cycle long life. The eg4 powerpro are nice.
@@TheHVACDopeShow Often times in the country they use wood for heat in the winter with a boiler shed that can take whole logs in 4 foot segments. Burning that much wood is usually not allowed in cities. In the country on larger lots trees laying on the ground (that you did not cut down or pay to cut down) are free and plentiful.
Three years ago, we bought a house with geothermal Heat and Air Conditioning. The geo system was put in in 2004. It's now 2024 and we're told we need to replace the unit. Is it worth it to put replace the geo or put in electric or gas instead? It's been hard to find geothermal repair people and we finally found one that is in his 70's. He want $18,000 to buy and install the system. Also, we have no idea the shape of the tubes going out to our pond. If that needs replacement, I'm guessing it'll be another $20,000. He says it's under warranty for 10 years, but will he be around??? I asked a general contractor and he said that geos are obsolete because regular systems are just as efficient these days. Is that true? What would you do? Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Geo systems are definitely more efficient than air source heat pump but if your loop is in good shape (sounds like you have an open loop that circulates through a pond) then you’ll have better efficiency with with a Geo system. So just depends how long you plan on living in the home and your regional temps. But the COP of new GEO systems is 4-5 or more even when it’s -20F outside (very cold for a heat pump) but an air source heat pump will be running on backup heat at that temp at that point. So I’d say switching to gas / air source inverter is probably the same replacement cost. And I’ve heard of people getting 50 years on the loop so it really depends on your climate. If it’s -20F for months on end, I’d stick with Geo if you’ve been happy with it, but if it rarely gets below 10F than an air source heat pump with furnace backup is probably fine. But geo is def more efficient
@@TheHVACDopeShow Thank you so much. So appreciated. So I’m hearing since we live in in an area that never gets below 20, we should go with a regular system.
Lots and lots of words. Heat pump/air conditioner either works off outside air or from ground. When 100° outside the ground is cooler, the deeper the cooler. When 10° outside, the ground is warmer. This is how geothermal is more *economical* (which is related to but not the same as efficiency).
In my opinion for Virginia probably not because if it doesn't get below 30F then an air source heat pump is basically the same or close efficiency as a geothermal system. Geo makes the most sense when you're very cold (northern Canada, months of 0F and colder) and are also off grid with expensive propane / oil as your heating choices. It depends based on your cost analysis and labor costs in your area but in Colorado we have high labor costs so for us the most common installs are in the mountains where people would be heating with propane, and want radiant in floor heating and have solar in lieu, and want to cash in on a tax credit. Otherwise for us the labor costs are very high it just doesn't make sense out here on a cost comparison / savings basis unless the heating alternatives are disproportionately more expensive. Like natural gas in CO is historically cheap
When if ever are you coming to Indianapolis? Most of the companies here are not knowledgeable about heat pumps and make a lot more money pushing furnaces etc
We want to go as many places as possible at some point! I don’t have an answer for Indianapolis, current plan is expanding to a few markets in Texas through 2025, after that Midwest is definitely an option!
For those that are space rich....Can you speak to using coiled hdpe loops that are buried 10 feet down but run laterally? Are these systems cheaper to install?
www.geothermalsolutions.net/slinky-loop-geothermal-slinky-ground-water-loop.html You may have to copy and paste this link since TH-cam doesn’t like links in comments sometimes but this article explains it well. Depending on your region it will vary. In Colorado I’ve heard of mostly vertical loops being drilled because the “slinky” style of horizontal loops can have capacity issues if not designed properly. I’m not a drilling contractor so I’m not as familiar with this aspect (we only recently started doing geothermal) but from what I’ve learned thus far the majority of geothermal problems come from poor loop design that result in finished capacity / freezing ground etc. They will probably be cheaper to install than drilling but you still have to excavate a 10’ deep 5-6’ wide trench in order to put in a horizontal loop like that.
If you do install one of those, make sure to pressurize it to test, then keep it pressurized during back fill and compaction. You don't want the pipe collapsing after it is buried.
Mine was installed on my 1 acre lot on one end 4 loops for 4 tons. Here in wisconsin 6'-7' down is sufficient. Mine were installed 8'-9. He charged me $5,000. Came back and flushed and filled system with ethanol and water. When I got it all hooked up. Been running 7+ years no problems no maintenance. I have checked the water temperature comming out of the loops. Is actually 2 degrees warmer now than when it started. So the loops are sized correctly. For my system. In wisconsin heating is way bigger than cooling. 3400sqft all electric house. Heated and cooled at all times to whatever temperature I want. 10,080 watt net metering solar. Zero bills
If you have enough ground it's a nobrainer and stupidly cheap. 400m/1300 feet per loop. One loop is good up to an 8kw pump. After that resitance becomes to great and you need mulltiple loops. I rented just a 3ton digger for a weekend (2 days) since the ground is just clay where I live and laid down 400m single loop, not a single rock or stone came in my way on the hole loop 😂. Only thing is avoid laying it on your lawn as much as possible since it will settle some over time. Especially if you have real winters.
The hottest water a geothermal heat pump is going to make is 120f. Even at that temp the heat pump is not running efficiently. If you have a hydronic system using radiators that require 180f water temperatures. A heat pump is not going to work.
Infloor heating usually around 108f is what you want. I tried turning mine up to see what it would do in my in floor heat. I got it up to the 128°f that I had set it. Temperature taken from probe in boiler buddy. Without any problem. In a short period of time. I right away descided it was too high. And dropped it back down. Didn't try anything higher.
I'm building a house in Southern Wyoming and am looking to install a geothermal closed loop slinky style system with radiant floor heating. I'm having trouble finding a contractor who can help me design the system so I get the right amount of loops in the field as well as the tonnage for the system itself. Do you guys service Southern Wyoming? If not, do you know of someone who does? Thanks! Great video!
I don’t but I can recommend a manufacturer rep that can get you some information and point you in the right direction. Geosource Distributors out of Loveland, CO. Shad or Brian should be able to help you find a referral in Southern, Wyoming. If they can’t help lmk I’ll ask around and see what I can come up with.
You don't need geothermal in California it's a waste of money. Your ambient temperatures are fine for air source heat pumps the juice isn't worth the squeeze you'll spend 100k to get a slightly more efficient system. Geo is for cold climates because it's -30F outside and a geothermal setup will run at a COP of 4 or 5 still. Especially off grid when your options are propane etc. I'd get a good heat pump like a Daikin fit and a good solar / battery setup so when they have grid issues in the summer you are in good shape
So, my question is this, I am designing a high efficiency Residential Structure at the moment. I am evaluating several options but in general, is looks as if my wall R-Value will be in the R-23 range and the Roof Deck R-Value will be an R-40. Both of these values reflect a 99% full thermal break, so no penalty for that scenario. As a result, I am evaluating a multi-zone mini-split, ducted system on each floor of the home. It's a two story structure. Our climate here is hot and humid, predominantly, SW Georgia. The site I am looking at is 3.7 acres so no issues as to space. Is there a Mini-Split Inverter System that will work with geo-thermal? Thanks.
Short answer is yes there is I’ll have to look into it more but basically the way it would work is you would likely have hydronic thermal loops going to hydronic air handlers. Truth is I’m not familiar with that application but will definitely look into and get back to you. I’m not sure if the efficiency gain will be worth it since it’s predominantly for cooling purposes but can verify and get back to you. There’s some very high efficiency mini split systems on the market that push 25+ SEER even as air source heat pumps, so avoiding geothermal would save installation costs and complexity of service in the future. Most of the geothermal applications I’m familiar with are used because heat pumps at very cold temps (think Canada) just don’t do well for extended periods below -20F for example, but geothermal efficiency doesn’t drop hardly at all even at -30/40F or colder
Sounds like my house R20 walls R65 ceilings thermal brake. 3400sqft all electric. But I live in wisconsin. Mostly heating. My cooling is handled by the geothermal system. Chilled water fan coils. Look like mini split head units. Just have cold water running through them. Geothermal unit allows down to 36°f. Could actually freeze it. But won't let it go below 36f for pipes. They do remove a lot of humidity. But down south. You're probably going to need whole house dehumidifier. Even with mini splits. Plus Im sûre you alread know this. But with a house that tight. You're going to need an ERV. Air to air heat/humidity exchanger. I have panasonics cold climate ERV. Usually have to use just HRV (heat recovery ventilation) in northern climates. I self built my house almost totally by myself. Had a contractor put up the outside. And I did everything else myself. While driving a forklift 65-70hrs a week 12hr shifts to afford it.😂
@@danmccoy6164 I'm in the process of designing a similar house, also all electric. What fan coil units are you using, and what do you think of them (noise, effectiveness, etc)? What is the size of your system (i.e. how many tons is your heatpump)? How did you incorporate your ERV into the house? My understanding is that these usually these go into the ductwork, but with a hydronic system, there usually isn't much/any ductwork. Thank you!
You don't ty it into another loop for domestic hot water. It recirculates domestic water in a water jacket on the air compressor. Making heat whether it's making heat for winter or cold water for the chilled water fan coils. For summer cooling. The geothermal heat pumps can also and do last 35 to 40 years. Because they don't work nearly as hard as air source heat pumps. And they're inside Your utilitie room. Not exposed to outside harsh environment. Most use horizontal loops. Instead of drilling. Mine uses horizontal loops. I only have 1 acre lot. With a 2 stage 3-4 ton bosch unit. 3400sqft all electric house that I heat and cool to whatever temperature I want. 10,080 watt net metering solar. Other than sewer and water I have ZERO utility bills 7 years running. Zero mantainace so far. I have to add that ph balance on any water in any looped system is important when filling the systems. You can't just use distilled water like so many "experts" will tell You. And it has to be treated for biologics too. Otherwise You will have equipment problems 4 or 5 years down the line. You can't just use tap water with some antifreeze. As a lot of installers of infloor heating will do. Of course that would give them new work. Replacing your equipment. Every 5 years or so.😂
I am in Mobile Alabama, on the gulf coast. We get both lots of heat and lots of rain. If I leave an empty 5 gallon bucket out on any given Monday during hurricane season (easter to thanksgiving) it will be overflowing by the next Monday. I have an air source heat pump. I was thinking of adding gutters to the house and running those to a cistern. I would then put a few loops of copper tubing in the bottom of cistern with some antifreeze, and add a circulation pump and a bubbler (to cool the water). Then have a liquid to liquid (high pressure) plate heat exchanger to offload refrigerant cooling after the air heat exchanger performs the initial cooling. From what I understand air heat exchangers will often drop the refrigerant temperature from 260F to 160F. If I can drop that refrigerant temperature to 130f before it gets sent back to the air handler in my house, it should significantly increase my effective seer rating.
Im not sure how that would pan out just because a lot of the refrigerants are specifically engineered to enter air handlers / coils at specific temp and pressure conditions so if that gets altered somehow the system or refrigerant might not function as intended. If you try something like that I’m curious to hear your thoughts!
@@TheHVACDopeShow With ambient temperatures in the summer of 117f and night time lows of 96f, our air conditioner gets a lot of work. The cistern water won't be cold, and the returned refrigerant will probably be warmer than the returned refrigerant if it was 80f out, so that should work.
You would have to make soooo much money, or an inheritance to get a $30,000 tax credit to apply. You have to have a tax liability to claim it. It should be made a lot more clear by these people peddling bs. I looked into one of those scam artists, sorry, solar install companies a few years ago. I live in a fairly low income neighborhood and they applied a max tax credit to their portfolio for me, assuming I somehow could apply it to my taxes on a home that was valued, publicly thru Zillow at about $100,000. My elderly neighbor on assistance, with an adult child with developmental disabilities fell for it. They have panels on the east and west of their roof... In full shade. Drives me absolutely insane.
Some of the tax credits are refundable but that's their target market for these tax credits is people who have a tax liability. I thought the solar credits were refundable or could be carried forward... definitely doesn't make sense if you don't have a tax bill ever
You completely left out the cooling component of Geothermal (ground source heat pumps). When it's 110 xdg outside, the cooling efficiency of a Geothermal is as beneficial as the cold temp examples you keep talking about.
Can't you get many of the benefits of a geothermal system for much less money by making it two stage? first an air heat exchanger then to the water. The air first stage should significantly reduce the load on the geothermal wells. ie when cooling with 60f water. an air heat exchanger could go from 260f to 160f(in 110f air), then the geothermal 160f to 70f, wouldn't this half the number of wells you would need?
Don't waste your time. Instead of listening to 14minutes of "Yada, yada." What he's trying to say is "You won't save much money.(like anything else)" Welcome....
You are correct. If you have natural available and don’t have access to off peak electricity it’s actually cheaper to heat your home with natural gas. With the advances made in air source heat pumps I think geothermal will eventually become obsolete. I’ve been installing geothermal systems for 30 years.
Don't think so air source heat pumps can go lower in temperature but work way harder. The colder they go. I installed my system completely myself. Other than the horizontal loops because I don't have an excavator. Loops cost me $5000 4 loops 4tons on my 1 acre lot on just one end of the lot. He came back and flushed it out and filled the system with ethanol and water. After I got it all hooked up. Including all the inslab and warmboard infloor heating chilled water fan coils. For $22,000. Way less than the 2 estimates I got for conventional heating and cooling. $28,000 and $34,000. I drive a forklift for à living. Took me awhile to instal because I had never done it before. But is surprisingly simple. Running 7 + years no maintenance.
I had 3 different estimates done for geothermal. By supposedly geothermal experts. All of them had wildly different ideas for equipment. The first 2 were $45,900 $45,790. The 3rd had actually been installing geothermal for over 35 years. He had really simple ideas for equipment. I thought great I will actually be able to afford this. His estimate came back at.....$45,200. I asked the hvac guy at work to order the equipment of of the last guys estimate. He does the hvac for our 1,700,000sqft plant. He did at his cost. The estimate for my cost was just equipment. That includes warmboard subfloor upstairs and extra cost for having it installed and insulation and pex I installed myself in the slab downstairs. All the manifolds I made. The $5,000 for the loops. Everything. But my labor. All by myself. Like I said took me a long time because I drive a forklift for a living. If I actually did it for a living. I figured it would have taken me and another worker acouple of days. Maybe if we stretched it out. A week. So the installers were going to make $23,000. For Maybe a weeks worth of work. Conventional heating and cooling. Is way simpler and cheaper equipment costs. So yah add. Normal labor cost to my geothermal. And it would have been closer to the lowest conventional estimate I got.
Heat pumps are like windmills.They are both expensive to buy and have low reliability. Seldom does either system last the projected lifetimes meaning that you keep paying capital costs over and over. You make claims for lifetimes of piping and electrical components that defy actual experience. If you want to sell heat pumps offer a 30 year warranty but that would bankrupt you. Most people have trouble making decisions on these tradeoffs so you have plenty of customers who will buy and rave about their savings until the second installment of repairs comes due. Finally COP is an idealized and tempting number until you realize that you have to pay for inefficiencies in pumping the fluid and a total dependence on electrical power. Remote locations seldom have reliable power. My gas boiler may have a COP of 1-1 but its there for me when I need it.
Gas doesn’t have a cop that’s a measurement of electrical efficiency. We have a separate video that talks about calculating your break even and it involves taking this into account when comparing gas to electric.
I'm building a house in Southern Wyoming and am looking to install a geothermal closed loop slinky style system with radiant floor heating. I'm having trouble finding a contractor who can help me design the system so I get the right amount of loops in the field as well as the tonnage for the system itself. Do you guys service Southern Wyoming? If not, do you know of someone who does? Thanks! Great video!
Will ask, we don’t currently but Enertech Global is one of our Geo/Air to water suppliers and they can probably point you in the right direction with a reputable contractor in your area.
A couple of things that might not have reached your side of the pond yet.
- Nibe have a "Ground Source" PV/T system, where the Solar Thermal collector can be used instead of or in addition to a ground loop with their ground source heat pumps.
- A German company (Fraunhofer) is further experimenting with hybrid ground+PV/T loop installations. Which will automatically use whichever loop is warmer (e.g. PV/T during the day, and the ground loop at night) for home heating, or whichever is cooler for cooling in summer. It also has some other benefits, e.g. the ground loop can melt snow off the PV/T array in winter, so snow coverage on solar panels is no longer an issue. It can also use the Solar Thermal to warm/recharge the ground in summer ready for winter, or to allow smaller boreholes. Who knows when that level of control becomes available though.
Right on I’ll have to look into these more that’s very unique and I like the snowmelt tied to PV that’s pretty smart!
I truly appreciate your pragmatic approach to heating and cooling. I personally think that most of us in Colorado can get by with a hybrid system and cut our nat. Gas consumption by 60+ percent and still Make a huge difference in what we burn.
Only wish more contractors and HVAC specialists would offer these options and also be willing to retro an air source heat pump into existing furnaces when they are modern enough to makes sense to keep. I have a 95% Trane Furnace that’s been extremely reliable and I spoke to 3 HVAC companies who wouldn’t entertain replacing my compressor only for a heat pump. All wanted to toss the whole system.
Thanks! Glad you enjoy it. The Mitsubishi intelliheat is a good option for this. If the furnace is 20 years old that might be why they’re saying that but if it’s a newer system you should be able to find someone willing to just do the heat pump.
@@TheHVACDopeShow thank you for the reply… wasn’t expecting one.
I will research this Mitsu model but I was leaning toward using my Ecobee thermostat and its dual fuel function to add a heat pump and A coil and the Ecobee will run the A coil until I reach a certain temp and then hand off to the furnace.
The b-roll used for Nederland made me laugh.
Me too lol I left it instead of saying something to the editor
@@TheHVACDopeShow Thank you for doing that, it brought me a chuckle.
We love our geothermal system that was installed in 2021.
I am a retired HVAC professional and have installed pump and dump systems, the COP is high but doesn’t account for the well pump. IMO on a new home the money spent on making your HVAC system more efficient would be better spent on making the home more efficient. Most Geothermal systems are at least 10K more expensive and only yield a marginal increase in efficiency over today’s mini splits. I started doing heat losses when manual J was actually manual, the eye opener was how 50% of the load was air inflation. With a budget of 10K you could reduce the air inflation and energy consumption of a typical home by 75% and eliminate the cost of a ducted system with several mini splits which will also allow for zoning. This has been my observation spending my entire career in the industry.
Insulation is most important that’s for sure, we’ve reduced tonnages by 30% or more sometimes just by blowing in attic insulation, makes a huge difference. I think geo is a good option if you live off grid, where it’s super cold, and you’re choosing between expensive propane or oil bills. Besides that I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze most of the time. Cool technology but not cost effective by any means
@@TheHVACDopeShow the one invention I thought of although it’s just an adaptation of ancient technology is having the condenser fed air from an earth tube. It’s geothermal in a sense but zero complexity.
I like my pump and dump systems. My cost is less than 200 / year and my well pump is less than 50/year. I diy installed , my current one for less than 3k. Insulating the house is certainly a plus.. but if you can diy it.. it's great !
@@ronludington5393 I have installed them as well and always thought just running the water from the well directly through an H2O coil in the ducts would cool most homes without the need for a compressor.
@paulmarc-aurele5508 maybe with several coils, it might take more surface area to cool the air with just 60 degree water. The fan would have to run constantly too. Not sure where the condensation would go though.
Suggest talking about use of radiant heat and cooling with hot and cold water from the heat pump. and extremes of heat and the need for cooling in summer : air to air/air or water heat pumps are inefficient over 100 F ....
Could you run several houses or building off a single geothermal well? Could you network several houses together to provide geothermal heating and cooling to each one as a separate unit and gain some cost savings?
I don't know that you'd save money the loops have to be pretty big but you could do this for a multifamily / condo type of building and that would make sense but I'm honestly not sure about shared geothermal loops
@TheHVACDopeShow Nice video. So how does zoning work with geothermal? I like my bedroom cold but my living room warm. Or let’s say I wanted to heat my pool while I am cooling my house in the hot summer of St. George. Thanks!
Hello, thank you for your explanation, several countries in the world seasonal air temperature and water are above 35
degrees we can use this condition to produce electricity and fresh water other products that I mentioned my profile.
This might be a ridiculous question but why not build a giant box around your heat source heat pump condenser during the winter months? Aren't you fighting efficiency because the air is so cold?
I'm also curious about this. I have 2 solariums attached to my house. Is there any reason I shouldn't install my heat pumps inside of these rooms. I'm in central Ontario.
If you put a box around an air source heat pump you are effectively creating a refrigerator, and the air inside that box/room will become colder than the outside air while trying to heat the home.
Correct it’s pulling heat out of the air, so the box will essentially not replenish the unit with any heat to transfer and essentially get so cold inside the box it stops working… if you put your hand over the air of a condenser in heat pump mode in the winter you’ll see it’s actually blowing cool air outside so it’s just reversing the cycle we enjoy in the summer that cools down our house.
There is technically heat even in subzero temps all the way down to 0 K (zero kelvin) which is a theoretical number at will all electrons and matter ceases movement and there is no heat left. In Fahrenheit it’s the equivalent of -459.67 F… COOOOOLD
Are there any hybrid air/ground source systems? It seems like your efficiency would only improve..
Why would efficiency improve? Technically yes, heat pumps are more efficient with a higher delta T, but they also have to do more work. Even though the work is done more efficiently, it's still more.
Air source is nearly always fighting delta T, warm air outside and you want cold air inside, or cold air outside and you want warm air inside. Ground is more often than not a lower delta T between what you want and the ground temp.
Yeah I agree efficiency would probably decrease. Ground source has substantially higher COP’s year round and doesn’t drop that much when it’s subzero and gets really cold. There was another commenter that posted about a system I wasn’t aware of that uses solar loops and ties into geothermal heat pump ground loops so your ground loop can melt snow off the panels, and also the heat from the panels can augment the ground loops. That seems like a very smart design. Older solar water / hydronic loops had a reputation of breaking down / leaking but hopefully the newer ones are more reliable.
@@TheHVACDopeShow Thanks to both of you. Interesting to understand a bit more about it all..
You didn't mention the type of soil ........... Is Colorado mountain rock is good for Geo Wells? How about sandstone or lime stone? What is the best deep soil material for a GEO well?
Softer soils are better than hard / rocky granite etc obviously as that affects the drilling cost but that varies widely. I don't have any experience with drilling, hoping to have the drilling contractor we know on the show as a guest to give more insight.
I have well water being pumped through my geo. 😮
I bought this house and it's a very high end model.
Seems to maintain pressure and has a decent COP as per the gauges which are all digital.
Explain how off grid locations are good for geothermal heat pumps. What’s producing the electricity to run the heat pump?
Solar. Anyway, I think he was meaning that you're too far out to run gas lines but you can run electrical lines much further, so you can still be on the electrical grid but not have access to gas
I live in town. I have 10,080 watts of solar. Grid tied net metering. Have had zero bills since solar started up. 7 + years now. Am currently buying more panels 30 390watt canadian solar. For $112 apiece. Brand new delivered. 71.5 kwh worth of 5 powerpro wall batteries $16,885 delivered. Am going to be able to just go off grid. 3400sqft of all electric house. Won't have to worry about load levelling. (Not running my 2stage compressor when I'm welding) If my utilitie company ever gets rid of net metering. They are trying all the time. Until they do I will be building up a much bigger credit. They have to pay me out. When I go off grid. Plus those prices are before the 30% tax credit.
So yah if you are way off grid. You could have a mansion and not sacrifice on anything. Geothermal helps reduce the size of solar needed dramatically.
Also off grid (or still connected to grid but middle of nowhere out in the boonies with no gas lines) you’re choices for fuel are propane / oil which is expensive to heat with. A geo gives you plenty of capacity and cost savings vs. propane and oil normally makes it feasible financially
@@danmccoy6164 I am going to go solar soon. The crappy house I am in has 2x4s holding up the roof. I pay a guy who weighs 110 pounds to clean it off periodically, and it really shakes when he is up there. I think adding solar would kill it. I am going to get some shipping containers soon and add solar to the top. Also this house is a stepping stone and I don't want to invest too much money into it that others would not value when I move on.
For the batteries I am going to get my own lifepo4 battery cells from alibaba. They currently cost about $70 each, and 1kwh each. mb30 is the new chemistry for 10,000 cycle long life. The eg4 powerpro are nice.
@@TheHVACDopeShow Often times in the country they use wood for heat in the winter with a boiler shed that can take whole logs in 4 foot segments. Burning that much wood is usually not allowed in cities. In the country on larger lots trees laying on the ground (that you did not cut down or pay to cut down) are free and plentiful.
Three years ago, we bought a house with geothermal Heat and Air Conditioning. The geo system was put in in 2004. It's now 2024 and we're told we need to replace the unit. Is it worth it to put replace the geo or put in electric or gas instead? It's been hard to find geothermal repair people and we finally found one that is in his 70's. He want $18,000 to buy and install the system. Also, we have no idea the shape of the tubes going out to our pond. If that needs replacement, I'm guessing it'll be another $20,000. He says it's under warranty for 10 years, but will he be around??? I asked a general contractor and he said that geos are obsolete because regular systems are just as efficient these days. Is that true? What would you do? Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Geo systems are definitely more efficient than air source heat pump but if your loop is in good shape (sounds like you have an open loop that circulates through a pond) then you’ll have better efficiency with with a Geo system. So just depends how long you plan on living in the home and your regional temps. But the COP of new GEO systems is 4-5 or more even when it’s -20F outside (very cold for a heat pump) but an air source heat pump will be running on backup heat at that temp at that point. So I’d say switching to gas / air source inverter is probably the same replacement cost. And I’ve heard of people getting 50 years on the loop so it really depends on your climate. If it’s -20F for months on end, I’d stick with Geo if you’ve been happy with it, but if it rarely gets below 10F than an air source heat pump with furnace backup is probably fine. But geo is def more efficient
@@TheHVACDopeShow
Thank you so much. So appreciated. So I’m hearing since we live in in an area that never gets below 20, we should go with a regular system.
Should've covered the cooling aspect also.
Lots and lots of words.
Heat pump/air conditioner either works off outside air or from ground. When 100° outside the ground is cooler, the deeper the cooler. When 10° outside, the ground is warmer. This is how geothermal is more *economical* (which is related to but not the same as efficiency).
I'm sure it addressed,. We are in Virginia does the 5' deep trench loop type system make $ sense? Tom
In my opinion for Virginia probably not because if it doesn't get below 30F then an air source heat pump is basically the same or close efficiency as a geothermal system. Geo makes the most sense when you're very cold (northern Canada, months of 0F and colder) and are also off grid with expensive propane / oil as your heating choices. It depends based on your cost analysis and labor costs in your area but in Colorado we have high labor costs so for us the most common installs are in the mountains where people would be heating with propane, and want radiant in floor heating and have solar in lieu, and want to cash in on a tax credit. Otherwise for us the labor costs are very high it just doesn't make sense out here on a cost comparison / savings basis unless the heating alternatives are disproportionately more expensive. Like natural gas in CO is historically cheap
geography and cost and availability of energy is the determining factor.
When if ever are you coming to Indianapolis? Most of the companies here are not knowledgeable about heat pumps and make a lot more money pushing furnaces etc
We want to go as many places as possible at some point! I don’t have an answer for Indianapolis, current plan is expanding to a few markets in Texas through 2025, after that Midwest is definitely an option!
For those that are space rich....Can you speak to using coiled hdpe loops that are buried 10 feet down but run laterally? Are these systems cheaper to install?
www.geothermalsolutions.net/slinky-loop-geothermal-slinky-ground-water-loop.html
You may have to copy and paste this link since TH-cam doesn’t like links in comments sometimes but this article explains it well. Depending on your region it will vary. In Colorado I’ve heard of mostly vertical loops being drilled because the “slinky” style of horizontal loops can have capacity issues if not designed properly. I’m not a drilling contractor so I’m not as familiar with this aspect (we only recently started doing geothermal) but from what I’ve learned thus far the majority of geothermal problems come from poor loop design that result in finished capacity / freezing ground etc. They will probably be cheaper to install than drilling but you still have to excavate a 10’ deep 5-6’ wide trench in order to put in a horizontal loop like that.
If you do install one of those, make sure to pressurize it to test, then keep it pressurized during back fill and compaction. You don't want the pipe collapsing after it is buried.
Mine was installed on my 1 acre lot on one end 4 loops for 4 tons. Here in wisconsin 6'-7' down is sufficient. Mine were installed 8'-9. He charged me $5,000. Came back and flushed and filled system with ethanol and water. When I got it all hooked up. Been running 7+ years no problems no maintenance. I have checked the water temperature comming out of the loops. Is actually 2 degrees warmer now than when it started. So the loops are sized correctly. For my system. In wisconsin heating is way bigger than cooling. 3400sqft all electric house. Heated and cooled at all times to whatever temperature I want. 10,080 watt net metering solar. Zero bills
If you have enough ground it's a nobrainer and stupidly cheap. 400m/1300 feet per loop. One loop is good up to an 8kw pump. After that resitance becomes to great and you need mulltiple loops.
I rented just a 3ton digger for a weekend (2 days) since the ground is just clay where I live and laid down 400m single loop, not a single rock or stone came in my way on the hole loop 😂. Only thing is avoid laying it on your lawn as much as possible since it will settle some over time. Especially if you have real winters.
0:24 I tried to smash that like button, but I think I only smooshed it. Sorry, did the best I could. 🤷♂
You just need the loops below the frost line dont need to be 300ft deep
Depends on the design of the system and location and lot size
Can a R290 heat pump be used to replace an oil boiler in a hydronic system? When will R290 heat pumps be available?
Yes it can, I don’t know when they’re coming to the US and can’t find a straight answer… hopefully this year but I’m not 100% sure
The hottest water a geothermal heat pump is going to make is 120f. Even at that temp the heat pump is not running efficiently. If you have a hydronic system using radiators that require 180f water temperatures. A heat pump is not going to work.
Infloor heating usually around 108f is what you want. I tried turning mine up to see what it would do in my in floor heat. I got it up to the 128°f that I had set it. Temperature taken from probe in boiler buddy. Without any problem. In a short period of time. I right away descided it was too high. And dropped it back down. Didn't try anything higher.
I'm building a house in Southern Wyoming and am looking to install a geothermal closed loop slinky style system with radiant floor heating. I'm having trouble finding a contractor who can help me design the system so I get the right amount of loops in the field as well as the tonnage for the system itself. Do you guys service Southern Wyoming? If not, do you know of someone who does? Thanks! Great video!
I don’t but I can recommend a manufacturer rep that can get you some information and point you in the right direction. Geosource Distributors out of Loveland, CO. Shad or Brian should be able to help you find a referral in Southern, Wyoming. If they can’t help lmk I’ll ask around and see what I can come up with.
I live in Southern California, specifically Orange County, CA 92630; What companies out here install Geothermal Cooling and Heating Pumps?
You don't need geothermal in California it's a waste of money. Your ambient temperatures are fine for air source heat pumps the juice isn't worth the squeeze you'll spend 100k to get a slightly more efficient system. Geo is for cold climates because it's -30F outside and a geothermal setup will run at a COP of 4 or 5 still. Especially off grid when your options are propane etc. I'd get a good heat pump like a Daikin fit and a good solar / battery setup so when they have grid issues in the summer you are in good shape
So, my question is this, I am designing a high efficiency Residential Structure at the moment. I am evaluating several options but in general, is looks as if my wall R-Value will be in the R-23 range and the Roof Deck R-Value will be an R-40. Both of these values reflect a 99% full thermal break, so no penalty for that scenario. As a result, I am evaluating a multi-zone mini-split, ducted system on each floor of the home. It's a two story structure. Our climate here is hot and humid, predominantly, SW Georgia. The site I am looking at is 3.7 acres so no issues as to space. Is there a Mini-Split Inverter System that will work with geo-thermal? Thanks.
Short answer is yes there is I’ll have to look into it more but basically the way it would work is you would likely have hydronic thermal loops going to hydronic air handlers. Truth is I’m not familiar with that application but will definitely look into and get back to you. I’m not sure if the efficiency gain will be worth it since it’s predominantly for cooling purposes but can verify and get back to you. There’s some very high efficiency mini split systems on the market that push 25+ SEER even as air source heat pumps, so avoiding geothermal would save installation costs and complexity of service in the future. Most of the geothermal applications I’m familiar with are used because heat pumps at very cold temps (think Canada) just don’t do well for extended periods below -20F for example, but geothermal efficiency doesn’t drop hardly at all even at -30/40F or colder
Sounds like my house R20 walls R65 ceilings thermal brake. 3400sqft all electric. But I live in wisconsin. Mostly heating. My cooling is handled by the geothermal system. Chilled water fan coils. Look like mini split head units. Just have cold water running through them. Geothermal unit allows down to 36°f. Could actually freeze it. But won't let it go below 36f for pipes. They do remove a lot of humidity. But down south. You're probably going to need whole house dehumidifier. Even with mini splits. Plus Im sûre you alread know this. But with a house that tight. You're going to need an ERV. Air to air heat/humidity exchanger. I have panasonics cold climate ERV. Usually have to use just HRV (heat recovery ventilation) in northern climates. I self built my house almost totally by myself. Had a contractor put up the outside. And I did everything else myself.
While driving a forklift 65-70hrs a week 12hr shifts to afford it.😂
@@danmccoy6164 I'm in the process of designing a similar house, also all electric. What fan coil units are you using, and what do you think of them (noise, effectiveness, etc)? What is the size of your system (i.e. how many tons is your heatpump)? How did you incorporate your ERV into the house? My understanding is that these usually these go into the ductwork, but with a hydronic system, there usually isn't much/any ductwork. Thank you!
You don't ty it into another loop for domestic hot water. It recirculates domestic water in a water jacket on the air compressor. Making heat whether it's making heat for winter or cold water for the chilled water fan coils. For summer cooling. The geothermal heat pumps can also and do last 35 to 40 years. Because they don't work nearly as hard as air source heat pumps. And they're inside Your utilitie room. Not exposed to outside harsh environment. Most use horizontal loops. Instead of drilling. Mine uses horizontal loops. I only have 1 acre lot. With a 2 stage 3-4 ton bosch unit. 3400sqft all electric house that I heat and cool to whatever temperature I want. 10,080 watt net metering solar. Other than sewer and water I have ZERO utility bills 7 years running. Zero mantainace so far. I have to add that ph balance on any water in any looped system is important when filling the systems. You can't just use distilled water like so many "experts" will tell You. And it has to be treated for biologics too. Otherwise You will have equipment problems 4 or 5 years down the line. You can't just use tap water with some antifreeze. As a lot of installers of infloor heating will do. Of course that would give them new work. Replacing your equipment. Every 5 years or so.😂
Air compressor?
Sorry didn't notice the phone changed AC to air. Refrigerant compressor. AC as in air conditioning compressor.
I am in Mobile Alabama, on the gulf coast. We get both lots of heat and lots of rain. If I leave an empty 5 gallon bucket out on any given Monday during hurricane season (easter to thanksgiving) it will be overflowing by the next Monday. I have an air source heat pump. I was thinking of adding gutters to the house and running those to a cistern. I would then put a few loops of copper tubing in the bottom of cistern with some antifreeze, and add a circulation pump and a bubbler (to cool the water). Then have a liquid to liquid (high pressure) plate heat exchanger to offload refrigerant cooling after the air heat exchanger performs the initial cooling. From what I understand air heat exchangers will often drop the refrigerant temperature from 260F to 160F. If I can drop that refrigerant temperature to 130f before it gets sent back to the air handler in my house, it should significantly increase my effective seer rating.
Im not sure how that would pan out just because a lot of the refrigerants are specifically engineered to enter air handlers / coils at specific temp and pressure conditions so if that gets altered somehow the system or refrigerant might not function as intended. If you try something like that I’m curious to hear your thoughts!
@@TheHVACDopeShow With ambient temperatures in the summer of 117f and night time lows of 96f, our air conditioner gets a lot of work. The cistern water won't be cold, and the returned refrigerant will probably be warmer than the returned refrigerant if it was 80f out, so that should work.
You would have to make soooo much money, or an inheritance to get a $30,000 tax credit to apply. You have to have a tax liability to claim it. It should be made a lot more clear by these people peddling bs. I looked into one of those scam artists, sorry, solar install companies a few years ago. I live in a fairly low income neighborhood and they applied a max tax credit to their portfolio for me, assuming I somehow could apply it to my taxes on a home that was valued, publicly thru Zillow at about $100,000. My elderly neighbor on assistance, with an adult child with developmental disabilities fell for it. They have panels on the east and west of their roof... In full shade. Drives me absolutely insane.
Some of the tax credits are refundable but that's their target market for these tax credits is people who have a tax liability. I thought the solar credits were refundable or could be carried forward... definitely doesn't make sense if you don't have a tax bill ever
drill a single loop system to serve a neighbourhood instead of a single house.
This would make sense… do they do this in communities? I don’t see this often in Colorado, most geothermal is off grid applications
That could make a lot of sense in a development that’s based around a body of water.
You completely left out the cooling component of Geothermal (ground source heat pumps). When it's 110 xdg outside, the cooling efficiency of a Geothermal is as beneficial as the cold temp examples you keep talking about.
This is true
Could this work using radar
Checking if your ground is suitable for drilling with radar?
Can't you get many of the benefits of a geothermal system for much less money by making it two stage? first an air heat exchanger then to the water. The air first stage should significantly reduce the load on the geothermal wells. ie when cooling with 60f water. an air heat exchanger could go from 260f to 160f(in 110f air), then the geothermal 160f to 70f, wouldn't this half the number of wells you would need?
That’s a great question, and honestly I’m not sure - I’ll have to look into it!
Me parecer bien, ahora dilo en español!!
Title and thumbnail seemed to imply there'd be some "dirt" that you're sharing to maybe dissuade people from geothermal... Kinda click baity
I mean a little dirty but not much… they’re not really cost effective imo in most situations.
Don't waste your time.
Instead of listening to 14minutes of "Yada, yada."
What he's trying to say is "You won't save much money.(like anything else)"
Welcome....
You are correct. If you have natural available and don’t have access to off peak electricity it’s actually cheaper to heat your home with natural gas. With the advances made in air source heat pumps I think geothermal will eventually become obsolete. I’ve been installing geothermal systems for 30 years.
Don't think so air source heat pumps can go lower in temperature but work way harder. The colder they go. I installed my system completely myself. Other than the horizontal loops because I don't have an excavator. Loops cost me $5000 4 loops 4tons on my 1 acre lot on just one end of the lot. He came back and flushed it out and filled the system with ethanol and water. After I got it all hooked up. Including all the inslab and warmboard infloor heating chilled water fan coils. For $22,000. Way less than the 2 estimates I got for conventional heating and cooling. $28,000 and $34,000. I drive a forklift for à living. Took me awhile to instal because I had never done it before. But is surprisingly simple. Running 7 + years no maintenance.
@@danmccoy6164
"Don't think so air source heat pumps can go lower in temperature but work way harder....."
==
Is your cost of work $0.?
I had 3 different estimates done for geothermal. By supposedly geothermal experts. All of them had wildly different ideas for equipment. The first 2 were $45,900 $45,790. The 3rd had actually been installing geothermal for over 35 years. He had really simple ideas for equipment. I thought great I will actually be able to afford this. His estimate came back at.....$45,200. I asked the hvac guy at work to order the equipment of of the last guys estimate. He does the hvac for our 1,700,000sqft plant.
He did at his cost.
The estimate for my cost was just equipment. That includes warmboard subfloor upstairs and extra cost for having it installed and insulation and pex I installed myself in the slab downstairs. All the manifolds I made. The $5,000 for the loops. Everything. But my labor.
All by myself. Like I said took me a long time because I drive a forklift for a living. If I actually did it for a living. I figured it would have taken me and another worker acouple of days. Maybe if we stretched it out. A week. So the installers were going to make $23,000. For Maybe a weeks worth of work. Conventional heating and cooling. Is way simpler and cheaper equipment costs. So yah add. Normal labor cost to my geothermal. And it would have been closer to the lowest conventional estimate I got.
The guy that had been doing it for over 35 years. Said the majority of the original units he first installed were still running.
I lasted 2 mins lol
That’s what she said
@@TheHVACDopeShow hahaha who have you been speaking too 😂
And I lasted for 3 minutes 😂
That’s too bad because by the 12m mark you are ready to design your own system.
Heat pumps are like windmills.They are both expensive to buy and have low reliability. Seldom does either system last the projected lifetimes meaning that you keep paying capital costs over and over. You make claims for lifetimes of piping and electrical components that defy actual experience. If you want to sell heat pumps offer a 30 year warranty but that would bankrupt you. Most people have trouble making decisions on these tradeoffs so you have plenty of customers who will buy and rave about their savings until the second installment of repairs comes due. Finally COP is an idealized and tempting number until you realize that you have to pay for inefficiencies in pumping the fluid and a total dependence on electrical power. Remote locations seldom have reliable power. My gas boiler may have a COP of 1-1 but its there for me when I need it.
Gas doesn’t have a cop that’s a measurement of electrical efficiency. We have a separate video that talks about calculating your break even and it involves taking this into account when comparing gas to electric.
I'm building a house in Southern Wyoming and am looking to install a geothermal closed loop slinky style system with radiant floor heating. I'm having trouble finding a contractor who can help me design the system so I get the right amount of loops in the field as well as the tonnage for the system itself. Do you guys service Southern Wyoming? If not, do you know of someone who does? Thanks! Great video!
Will ask, we don’t currently but Enertech Global is one of our Geo/Air to water suppliers and they can probably point you in the right direction with a reputable contractor in your area.
enertechusa.com