The countersink with the hole is a Weldon style that I used on most metals when I worked as a machinist. They work well on wood especially the harder stuff. When working on harder metal we used combination center drills often with the pilot portion shortened & modified to 135 degree point. Also 90 or 82 degree spot drills especially Guhring brand work well on all materials for countersinking & close tolerance hole location.
As a machinist the flute less style champhering tools are used in machine shops in all non-hardened materials (and in pre-hardned 4140). They have been around for many, many years.
If you're going to buy new bits then obviously try out the ones he recommends. But if you want to keep your old bits and get 'clean' holes then run your countersink bit in reverse real quick. Cleans up the hole without digging out anymore wood.
I have the cross cut countersink which I also purchased from Lee Valley. Excellent countersink. I like to use countersinks in a brace. I get more control of depth of cut by hand cranking the brace. The multi-flute style of countersink gives a better cut for me with no chatter when being hand turned in the brace. Dave.
They seem under-advertized compared to Rockler or Woodcraft, so I often forget to check. I just got one of their Forstner bits too, so I'm curious to see how it compares to a Fisch.
Thanks. Been wondering about this new style and tired of spending on "chatter-sinks". The combo drill/CS are hard to get to run true unless you use the holder in the drill.
Excellent video, I've never been happy with the winged countersinks, have considered getting some of those other-fangled ones, methinks they'll move up on my acquisition list.
I agree with all your points. Irwin style are designed for metal, just like typical twist drill bits. Don't use lee valley style on metal of any type. I'll add this regarding the "lee valley" style: Apply medium firm downward pressure when starting the cut, otherwise the countersink can end up off-center with the drilled hole. I think the off center countersink is a result of having only one cutting surface; the bit doesn't automatically center itself in the hole the way the Irwin style does.
I have gone through many styles of these and last night I finally pulled the plug and bought the Amana countersink bits set. They have carbide cutters. I think my search is done.
Thanks for that tip Matthew, going to order some "zero flute countersink bits" right now. Glad I checked the comments. Found these assorted sizes for $14ish: www.amazon.com/OCGIG-Countersink-Chamfer-Titanium-Deburring/dp/B07P543FGB/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=zero+flute+countersink+bits&qid=1609210646&sr=8-2
I have used the single flute style counter sink on wood, aluminum, brass and mild steel it worked fine. I didn’t notice any issues with the cutter after using on these materials.
I haven't really had any trouble with my five-flute ones either. Good steel should be able to take a little abuse, especially if slower speeds are used for cutting harder materials.
If I'm not mistaken, you can't over-drill with the zero-flute countersinks. Self determined by when the cutting edge passes the surface. The different sizes allow for differing screw head sizes (#6, 8, 10 etc) with consistent results every time.
I machine mild steel and tool steel at work and the countersinks we have available to us are carbide versions of the Irwins you have. We have to spin them at usually the slowest RPM to keep the chatter out. We also have to watch the chipload or risk blowing them up. Speeds and feeds. If running in reverse works I would think eventually they'd be well polished, bite less and then work with forward rotation. Twice the life? Thanks for another great video. United Statesien... great stuff
Just a quick note on those combination drill/countersink bits: if they are the DeWalts, there should be a little Allen key adjustment on the side to shorten/lengthen how much of the bit is exposed. This will enable you to make shorter pre-drill depths. That said, I’m going to check out those Lee Valley bits. Thanks for another great video.
Those new ones with the angled hole work fine on metal as long as there is a hole drilled. I have used mine for aluminum, copper, brass, low carbon steel, stainless, and even high carbon (annealed obviously)
I have a large countersink bit like the Lee Valley. Diameter is about that of a quarter. My issue is that when using my drill press and everything is nice an level, the chamfers are not centered in the holes. Can't figure this out. Why does the cone shape not keep centered in the hole?
I never knew this. I've actually got the hole type countersink but I only ever used it to deburr metal. I never thought that I could use it as a countersink. I'm off now to practice with both types in some wood!
Good info Thanks! I have a single flute bit from my days at a boatyard. I have no idea where it came from but I still use it and touch it up with a diamond hone. It works well in metal plastic and wood, whereas the multi flute bits would leave chatter in all materials. It got me t thinking - if the flutes were staggered unevenly so that they couldn't fall into a valley formed by the flute before it. There would be no "resonance" because the oddly positioned flutes wouldn.t allow hills or valleys to begin to form. I wonder of anyone has tried that?
I'm so glad I brought proper countersink bit. Always been using massive 10-13mm bit for countersink. Either crack the material or suddenly (catch) and drill too deep 🤣🤣
I've been told this. I've got both types of countersink bits. I'm going to try it now with my drill press set really low. EDIT: set as low as it would go, with a pre-drilled hole chatter on the fluted bit but no chatter with the zero flute design.
as a general question - how do I know whether I'm buying a wood or metal countersink? how do they differ in design. What do I look for in the store. Like a lot of DIY stuff it seems most is trial and error with very few instructions available.
Most countersinks you'll find in the store are intended for use with wood, metal, or plastic, and it will usually say that on the packaging. You're right though, finding the one that's best suited for a specific material seems to be more challenging. Good saw blades normally explain that on the packaging or website, but not everything.
You might try a catalog for machine shops or even swing by a local machine shop to see what they recommend for a countersink for metal. Grainger’s or MSC might be a good place to start.
i have a few of these.and didnt know what the hell they were for! lol so if u pre drill it works better? in wood? but counter sync u need one with a hole in it? thanks. how about copper? good to know this stuff.
You can put a chamfer on an edge, and your screw can still be above the surface. If you are countersinking, you are chamfering the edge, but you are also widening it enough for the screw/bolt to be flush or lower than the surface.
You didn't really explain what's wrong with the right side bits, the ones which have both bit and countersink integrated. I suppose they also chip the wood?
I just tried it on a piece of PVC and it worked well, but you have to pull out while the bit is still moving to avoid leaving a shaving connected at the end. The fluted bit was a little rougher, but still adequate.
I think people should learn how "direction" works in woodworking, in this case, reverse drilling. Starting with a few pulses of reverse drilling will give you a better result than going straight with normal drilling, given any drill bit. Pretty much everything in woodworking the end result will be depended on how well you understand direction works.
I'm a newbie to woodworking so was practicing my 'learn before buy' rule re countersinking. Came across vid by an old American Co on this topic, don't know if info is reliable as they sell tools after all.. . It showed countersink angle different for metric vs imperial for how much contact the screw-head makes as it could work itself out if not seated properly? and that in general more flutes better for hard materials while none/less flutes are for softer? and the countersinks with one or no flutes at all are best used in a machine bcuz they're eccentric with only one cutting edge. . . can any of you experienced folks confirm if true? thanks on behalf of 'newbies'!
I have found that the zero-flute countersinks tend to get off-centered on harder materials, like acrylic, when drilling freehand. I haven't noticed it in wood yet, at least not enough to catch my attention.
I think he covered it with his point about the different material conditions present in wood. I've had good results with the fluted bits in metal and not wood but now I know why. Metal is an isotropic material, wood definitely isn't.
the reason the Lee Valley ones work better is because it is a single solitary blade, as opposed to multiple blades that may go out of sync with each other as your drill rotates. this won't happen if you are using a high quality drill, which has seen little use. but with a well-weathered drill (like the one in your video) you are more likely to see rotation that is uneven, resulting in "chatter" as you called it, when using multi-edge countersinks.
I have recently discovered that any cutting edge (countersink, router bits, saw blades, etc) I’ve used on pine boards in the past, when inspected closely, has a build up of sap/resin on it. Taking the time to clean that buildup off has restored what I thought was a dull edge back to like new quality. I’m not saying this is the case in this video but if a cutting edge made of a hardened metal seems dull from cutting wood - it’s probably not actually dull - give it a good cleaning (I like hot water, dish soap, and a stiff bristle brush - oil after if needed to prevent rust) and try again before you buy a replacement.
This especially applies to tear out from a circular or miter saw blade. The tips of those blades get hot from friction and they get such a uniform coating of sap after repeated use that you can hardly see how dirty the blade actually is.
@@TheSnekkerShow hello, I am making some wooden hand cross and want to put a oval medallion on it. Is there a bit that is best to counter sink an oval shape ? Thanks for any help you may have for me
@@NaturalResultsMobileMassage I use a router inlay kit like this: amzn.to/3mSOacY. Here's a box I did with an oval inlaid in the top: instagram.com/p/BsorMbSFphh
It's filmed at 4k ultra high definition, so if you're having trouble seeing the details you might try changing the "quality" setting or using a larger screen. On phones, it's usual in the corner under the three dots, and on computers it's usually in the gear icon.
you should use the combo drillbit/carbide countersink with low friction depth stop. Drilling holes and then countersinking is a ridiculous waste of time.
"Make bad decisions in the workshop and then we end up buying new tools" LMAO! Words to live by
Thanks for clearing that up, been having the same issues with the winged type
Glad it was helpful.
For some reason that's the type that every hardware store sells
Thank you for that final comparison on the drill press. Had the same problem and thought I was doing something wrong. I'm getting those new bits now!
The countersink with the hole is a Weldon style that I used on most metals when I worked as a machinist. They work well on wood especially the harder stuff. When working on harder metal we used combination center drills often with the pilot portion shortened & modified to 135 degree point. Also 90 or 82 degree spot drills especially Guhring brand work well on all materials for countersinking & close tolerance hole location.
I work with steel and mostly use Weldon. Zero flute countersinks work best for me.
Thank you! So glad I decided to lookup countersink before purchasing. Very well explained and demonstrated.
As a machinist the flute less style champhering tools are used in machine shops in all non-hardened materials (and in pre-hardned 4140). They have been around for many, many years.
If you're going to buy new bits then obviously try out the ones he recommends. But if you want to keep your old bits and get 'clean' holes then run your countersink bit in reverse real quick. Cleans up the hole without digging out anymore wood.
Solid video, informative, explained what chatter was and good demonstration with hand and press. Thank you.
Mind blown. Ive been quietly dissatsfied with messy countersink holes forever. Best video ive watched all week!
I've been surprised by how popular this video has been. Good to know I wasn't alone.
...and i was just about to buy those exact irwin ones before i decided to look for opinions. i'm sure glad i stumbled upon your video. thank you!
My pleasure
Thanks for this video. This really helps us decide what bits to buy.
You're quite welcome.
I have the cross cut countersink which I also purchased from Lee Valley. Excellent countersink. I like to use countersinks in a brace. I get more control of depth of cut by hand cranking the brace. The multi-flute style of countersink gives a better cut for me with no chatter when being hand turned in the brace.
Dave.
This was a short and useful video. Thanks. Lee valley is very good.
They seem under-advertized compared to Rockler or Woodcraft, so I often forget to check. I just got one of their Forstner bits too, so I'm curious to see how it compares to a Fisch.
Thanks. Been wondering about this new style and tired of spending on "chatter-sinks". The combo drill/CS are hard to get to run true unless you use the holder in the drill.
Excellent video, I've never been happy with the winged countersinks, have considered getting some of those other-fangled ones, methinks they'll move up on my acquisition list.
Very nice & informative. Appreciate all your knowledge & testing.
Excellent video. Saved me a lot of head scratching. Thanks
My pleasure.
I agree with all your points. Irwin style are designed for metal, just like typical twist drill bits. Don't use lee valley style on metal of any type.
I'll add this regarding the "lee valley" style: Apply medium firm downward pressure when starting the cut, otherwise the countersink can end up off-center with the drilled hole. I think the off center countersink is a result of having only one cutting surface; the bit doesn't automatically center itself in the hole the way the Irwin style does.
I have gone through many styles of these and last night I finally pulled the plug and bought the Amana countersink bits set. They have carbide cutters. I think my search is done.
You can find them cheaply on ebay as "zero flute countersink bits". They work just as well as the gourmet kind
Good tip, thanks.
Thanks for that tip Matthew, going to order some "zero flute countersink bits" right now. Glad I checked the comments. Found these assorted sizes for $14ish: www.amazon.com/OCGIG-Countersink-Chamfer-Titanium-Deburring/dp/B07P543FGB/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=zero+flute+countersink+bits&qid=1609210646&sr=8-2
I have used the single flute style counter sink on wood, aluminum, brass and mild steel it worked fine. I didn’t notice any issues with the cutter after using on these materials.
I haven't really had any trouble with my five-flute ones either. Good steel should be able to take a little abuse, especially if slower speeds are used for cutting harder materials.
If I'm not mistaken, you can't over-drill with the zero-flute countersinks. Self determined by when the cutting edge passes the surface. The different sizes allow for differing screw head sizes (#6, 8, 10 etc) with consistent results every time.
I machine mild steel and tool steel at work and the countersinks we have available to us are carbide versions of the Irwins you have. We have to spin them at usually the slowest RPM to keep the chatter out. We also have to watch the chipload or risk blowing them up. Speeds and feeds. If running in reverse works I would think eventually they'd be well polished, bite less and then work with forward rotation. Twice the life? Thanks for another great video. United Statesien... great stuff
Just a quick note on those combination drill/countersink bits: if they are the DeWalts, there should be a little Allen key adjustment on the side to shorten/lengthen how much of the bit is exposed. This will enable you to make shorter pre-drill depths. That said, I’m going to check out those Lee Valley bits. Thanks for another great video.
Those new ones with the angled hole work fine on metal as long as there is a hole drilled. I have used mine for aluminum, copper, brass, low carbon steel, stainless, and even high carbon (annealed obviously)
Interesting, the one time I tried those on metal, the bit was visibly dulled. Maybe mine is a cheap one...
I have a large countersink bit like the Lee Valley. Diameter is about that of a quarter. My issue is that when using my drill press and everything is nice an level, the chamfers are not centered in the holes. Can't figure this out. Why does the cone shape not keep centered in the hole?
Informative demo Video! Thanks for the great tips.. Lee valley owes you a check!
Lee valley should pay you for this because now I’m going to buy this product.
I never knew this. I've actually got the hole type countersink but I only ever used it to deburr metal. I never thought that I could use it as a countersink. I'm off now to practice with both types in some wood!
I really appreciate learning that it wasn't me....lol.
Likewise, good to know I'm not the only one.
Great video! Exactly what I needed to know. Thank you!
Good info Thanks! I have a single flute bit from my days at a boatyard. I have no idea where it came from but I still use it and touch it up with a diamond hone. It works well in metal plastic and wood, whereas the multi flute bits would leave chatter in all materials. It got me t thinking - if the flutes were staggered unevenly so that they couldn't fall into a valley formed by the flute before it. There would be no "resonance" because the oddly positioned flutes wouldn.t allow hills or valleys to begin to form. I wonder of anyone has tried that?
I'm so glad I brought proper countersink bit. Always been using massive 10-13mm bit for countersink. Either crack the material or suddenly (catch) and drill too deep 🤣🤣
Those new ones you're using work great on aluminum
When using countersinks, you should slow the RPM of your hand drill, or drill press way down. High speed countersinking is a recipe for chatter.
I've been told this. I've got both types of countersink bits. I'm going to try it now with my drill press set really low. EDIT: set as low as it would go, with a pre-drilled hole chatter on the fluted bit but no chatter with the zero flute design.
Nice comparison. Also, nice of you to sacrifice $42 worth of wood for this video!
as a general question - how do I know whether I'm buying a wood or metal countersink? how do they differ in design. What do I look for in the store. Like a lot of DIY stuff it seems most is trial and error with very few instructions available.
Most countersinks you'll find in the store are intended for use with wood, metal, or plastic, and it will usually say that on the packaging. You're right though, finding the one that's best suited for a specific material seems to be more challenging. Good saw blades normally explain that on the packaging or website, but not everything.
You might try a catalog for machine shops or even swing by a local machine shop to see what they recommend for a countersink for metal. Grainger’s or MSC might be a good place to start.
Very useful information, thank you! Jimp
You're quite welcome.
This is a quality video sir
Quality is my goal. Nice to know I achieve it every now and then.
@@TheSnekkerShow Clear, to the point and no faff! Great.
Maybe it's because it's a woodworking tools video, but I could swear I was listening to Nick Offerman (aka Ron Swanson).
I had the same thought. This guy sounds a lot like Nick Offerman.
Fantastic analysis, thank you!
My pleasure
Great video man thanks!
You're quite welcome.
i have a few of these.and didnt know what the hell they were for! lol so if u pre drill it works better? in wood? but counter sync u need one with a hole in it? thanks. how about copper? good to know this stuff.
Chamfer i understand but why is it called CounterSink (doesn't it actually sink) ? Are they different ?
Hmm, you got me. That's right up there with "hot water heater."
@@TheSnekkerShow 😁
And then Americans have Driveways to park cars and Parkways to drive cars 😉
You can put a chamfer on an edge, and your screw can still be above the surface. If you are countersinking, you are chamfering the edge, but you are also widening it enough for the screw/bolt to be flush or lower than the surface.
Great video. Thank you! Have you tried the Lee Valley countersinks in acrylic? [The Irwin style leaves similar ragged ragged edges as in wood]
It's surprisingly not possible to share a direct link to a community post, but I put some pictures here: th-cam.com/users/TheSnekkerShowcommunity
Those are the best, been uthem for years
use the "wings type" in reverse (unscrew direction).
You didn't really explain what's wrong with the right side bits, the ones which have both bit and countersink integrated. I suppose they also chip the wood?
Would this bit work well on pvc trim/moulding?
I just tried it on a piece of PVC and it worked well, but you have to pull out while the bit is still moving to avoid leaving a shaving connected at the end. The fluted bit was a little rougher, but still adequate.
@@TheSnekkerShow thx for checking into it and for the tip :)
Great info. Thanks!!
You're quite welcome
I think people should learn how "direction" works in woodworking, in this case, reverse drilling.
Starting with a few pulses of reverse drilling will give you a better result than going straight with normal drilling, given any drill bit.
Pretty much everything in woodworking the end result will be depended on how well you understand direction works.
Which countersink is best for aluminium,brass ???
Up
great info, thanks
My pleasure.
I'm a newbie to woodworking so was practicing my 'learn before buy' rule re countersinking. Came across vid by an old American Co on this topic, don't know if info is reliable as they sell tools after all.. . It showed countersink angle different for metric vs imperial for how much contact the screw-head makes as it could work itself out if not seated properly? and that in general more flutes better for hard materials while none/less flutes are for softer? and the countersinks with one or no flutes at all are best used in a machine bcuz they're eccentric with only one cutting edge. . . can any of you experienced folks confirm if true? thanks on behalf of 'newbies'!
I have found that the zero-flute countersinks tend to get off-centered on harder materials, like acrylic, when drilling freehand. I haven't noticed it in wood yet, at least not enough to catch my attention.
Flute countersinks chatter because they are blunt, ( even if they are straight out of the packet ) and are also dependent on the speed of cut
I think he covered it with his point about the different material conditions present in wood. I've had good results with the fluted bits in metal and not wood but now I know why. Metal is an isotropic material, wood definitely isn't.
Such a mundane issue. Both the Planning n Implementation is flawless ! Then u did a clinical placebo :)
Thank you!
They're called flutes. Different countersinks for different applications
Thank you for the nice video
the reason the Lee Valley ones work better is because it is a single solitary blade, as opposed to multiple blades that may go out of sync with each other as your drill rotates.
this won't happen if you are using a high quality drill, which has seen little use. but with a well-weathered drill (like the one in your video) you are more likely to see rotation that is uneven, resulting in "chatter" as you called it, when using multi-edge countersinks.
Couldn’t the tear-out be just due to dull or old bits…
I don't do enough countersinking for my bits to get dull.
I have recently discovered that any cutting edge (countersink, router bits, saw blades, etc) I’ve used on pine boards in the past, when inspected closely, has a build up of sap/resin on it. Taking the time to clean that buildup off has restored what I thought was a dull edge back to like new quality.
I’m not saying this is the case in this video but if a cutting edge made of a hardened metal seems dull from cutting wood - it’s probably not actually dull - give it a good cleaning (I like hot water, dish soap, and a stiff bristle brush - oil after if needed to prevent rust) and try again before you buy a replacement.
This especially applies to tear out from a circular or miter saw blade. The tips of those blades get hot from friction and they get such a uniform coating of sap after repeated use that you can hardly see how dirty the blade actually is.
Are you Canadian ?
No, United Statesian.
@@TheSnekkerShow hello, I am making some wooden hand cross and want to put a oval medallion on it. Is there a bit that is best to counter sink an oval shape ? Thanks for any help you may have for me
@@NaturalResultsMobileMassage I use a router inlay kit like this: amzn.to/3mSOacY. Here's a box I did with an oval inlaid in the top: instagram.com/p/BsorMbSFphh
@@TheSnekkerShow awesome thanks for the help. Much appreciated.👍😀
should have used a closeup for the comparisons, from that large distance in the video, it is hardly visible what you are trying to explain
The differences are clearly visible.
You probably need to run the video at a higher resolution; however I agree that a closer view would have been beneficial.
Why not test it on a plate so we can see the exact result, also zoom in might help us to see the different. Thank you
It's filmed at 4k ultra high definition, so if you're having trouble seeing the details you might try changing the "quality" setting or using a larger screen. On phones, it's usual in the corner under the three dots, and on computers it's usually in the gear icon.
U need to down your rpm man........
Is this Nick Offerman?
I feel like this guy is going to ask for all the eggs and bacon that I have. Not a large quantity of bacon, but rather all of the bacon that I have
Just exactly how much bacon are we talking about?
I just bought DeWalt style drill bit and countersink combination. Receipt Return. Hit the order button.... Soon
Auf Deutsch: Kegelsenker vs. Querlochsenker
Should have put link to the vid! (no affiliation) th-cam.com/video/QzNaZFEQiM4/w-d-xo.html
35 usd? no thanks.
I dont trust anyone using a 18v dewalt 😂😂
you should use the combo drillbit/carbide countersink with low friction depth stop. Drilling holes and then countersinking is a ridiculous waste of time.
I like to countersink the beautiful hexagonal designs. Not !!