Ngl, was my favourite part of the video. And to make it even better, while I was editing this last night, we had a crazy thunderstorm, so while replaying this clip flashing on my screen, I was watching the lightning flash through my window too. (I use UPS so don't worry, computer was safe from the storm, no power outages anyway)
A buddy picked up an 8k mouse couldn't stop talking about how amazing it felt, how it improved his game etc etc. I was over about 4 months ago and set it to 1k. Was over again a couple weeks ago and it was still 1k. I asked him how he was liking the mouse, he started going on and on again. I told him to check his polling rate and told him it was all in his head. He was pissed, not at me, but at spending that much money and it all being in his head.
@@RocketJumpNinja my buddy did the same thing to me but I noticed from 2k to 1k but by very little but I was 100 percent right out of 20 tests.. i was aware of the 19 other tests tho so maybe some luck. Either way I have many 8k mice and will probably never use 8k over just 2k
@@RocketJumpNinja I feel the difference in smoothness and responsiveness right away if I change the setting from 8 kHz to 1 kHz while playing CS2, and my flicks in quick situations aren't as accurate with 1 kHz because I've gotten used to the 8 kHz setting. In general, higher polling rate kind of makes it feel like the mouse has more DPI without changing the actual tracking speed, but you definitely can feel the difference in smoothness and flicks if you suddenly change from 8 kHz to 1 kHz.
Definitely true. I always recommend to people to save up for an OLED because it's the device that's gonna make the most difference by far apart from maybe a better PC.
People want to change what they can change with minimal efforts. Ping difference can't be easily changed, and monitor requires more fps to see the effects which leads to upgrade, thus more effort.
Thanks champ! Yeah I would love if a channel did genuine blind tests with someone who truly believed they could tell the difference... they'd have to be super human or very lucky to get it right consistently, surely.
It's hard to notice, but you do notice them in VR whey playing something super fast paced like Beat Saber on Expert and Expert+ levels. But it just the accuracy gets worse and more mistakes. E.g Display Port delay (let's call it real time (it's around 15-20ms) vs compressed through Oculus Link or similar that adds 35-60ms of latency on top for compression decompression etc., and you miss so much more blocks. So, yeah, when latency adds up you feel it :)
@@RocketJumpNinja you can take a look at Latency Split Test: Find Your Lag Threshold made by Aperture Grille. People have done that, and we are multiple people who have been able to get 10-12 correct at around 4-5ms
My mouse runs on depleted uranium, slaying noobs really is better at gamma ray frequency polling rate. Downside: I've started to develop some weird skin condition, not sure why....
Disabling CPU C-States on almost any system will allow 2khz and higher to work in pretty much every game. Higher polling rates will still raise your overall CPU usage, but disabling C-States will allow the interrupts to be processed properly. 4khz and higher does feel a bit smoother, personally, but it's very inconsequential. When games start running at 1000fps and 1000hz monitors are the norm, then sure, 8khz polling will be "better".
even running at 1000fps and with 1000hz monitors, your movements and reactions aren't ever going to necessitate 8khz of updates from the mouse, and you wouldn't be able to perceive the difference in movements anyway. for humans there will never be any benefit to a polling rate that high.
@@AquilaeYT This is verifiably untrue. Older platforms especially benefit from this. My 9900k with C-States enabled gets the same issues RJN has in this video. Disabling C-States solves it. It's literally the cores being put into lower power states dynamically by C-States that causes the USB interrupts to not be processed properly on many platforms. Some of the newer, better CPUs are more efficient at this natively, true, but even they can still benefit from having it disabled.
@@ArrythmiaFPS Think what you want but it is simply how it is. There is strictly no direct related issues between high polling rate and C-States setting, this may due to your specific configuration. I don't know about your old specific configuration but C-States won't directly interfere with USB in newer platform and don't restrict the amount of data and the rate of it, there is no difference at all, you can doubt as you want but keep in mind that all motherboard are don't optimized the same as others. In your case, that's just subjective.
@ArrythmiaFPS Do you have some documentation or proof(s) or this is just gist and speculation? I want to believe and test it myself, but it would be a waste of time if it really doesn't make a difference.
Ive had the same thoughts for ages. Its just not meaningful enough to use 8k. Cool to see tech pushed further but other aspect of a gaming mouse are far more meaningful. And also your time training/improving
Yeah for sure. So what's a good way for marketers to promote mice without fancy pointless numbers? Maybe if we can give them an alternative they can start focusing on things that actually matter...
Man, I love you! This video perfectly explains why I always follow your advice about mice. I bought the Zowie FK2 based on your recommendation and used it for 7 years without a single worry. Now, here we are again discussing this topic. While all the tech channels are saying to upgrade your PC and set the DPI high to achieve that near-8kHz polling rate, your video makes it crystal clear that it’s just not worth it. Thank you so much!
I didn’t notice any improvement in latency at 2K or 4k, but I do believe I noticed an improvement in motion smoothness/jitter. When a frame is drawn and displayed every 6.9ms (144Hz) or 4.2ms (240Hz) it probably does make a difference if the delay between polling the mouse and rendering of the frame can vary by up to 1ms. Makes sense to me. Still sent the mouse back because the shape was uncomfortable and the software was chinesium unsigned drivers.
3:40 Visually yes, but that's why people talk about smoothness and how it's supposed to feel different. It's the same about screens : there was people who used to say that you shouldn't care too much about a screen's response time « because you can't see the difference unless you are a superhuman », but you can feel it. The response time of the screen affects stuff like ghosting, artifacts or overall latency feel. That's why when I watch someone playing on a 144hz, it feels so fluid, even more than mine. Then I had someone play on my own screen ... and it felt more smooth than usual : that's because I'm not playing, even tho when playing I can feel the difference between 120 and 144 fps. After some testing myself in OW2, just switching between 1K and 2K I could notice when I forgot I was using 1K because it would feel just a tiny bit different. I haven't tried a complete blind test, but just like it feels more sluggish when I use 500hz, it's just a tiny bit faster when using 2K. I could go 4K but I don't want the battery to drain too fast and 8K ... I'm not even sure it's properly implemented anyway so why bother It's not a gimmick but it's clearly not a need. You're gaining so little there's just no use for most people. Stick to whatever honestly, but don't pick an 8K mouse because it's 8K lol, that's stupid. Refresh rate should be the last thing you think about when picking a mouse, everything is at least 1K, which is already enough. Shape is much more important, build quality, clicks and buttons, sensor, software and features ... are also more important
Polling rate is about accuracy of movement data effectively. Your mouse is a small camera and DPI is the resolution of that camera. It's more sensitive because as you increase that resolution it will detect much smaller movements and translate that to input because it has a greater resolution (dots/units) in the photos it takes. Higher DPI does not add speed or acceleration, it's simply that lower dpi does not capture as much movement at the lower resolution. The DSP is the processor that compares movement from let's say position X to position Y from pictures taken 59μs (microseconds) apart. Now after that calculation has been performed your mouse will update your PC via usb every 1ms. Relative to the speed of the sensor, it's somewhat slow. However take 8000Hz which is updating effectively every 125μs (microseconds) we are now able to update the PC based on the movement taken from our tiny camera much closer to a 1:1 ratio. What does this mean in practice? Greater accuracy in movement. The mouse is communicating a more accurate picture of how you got from position X to position Y to the PC. At 1000Hz or 1000μs or 1ms (microseconds) we are still being told we have moved from position X to position Y because the algorithm is still accurately working that out, but with 8000Hz we are getting more movement data along the way. In terms of latecy, you're gaining 875μs (microseconds) so that is basically imperceptible. What you are gaining is accuracy of movement. You have more data points along the line from point X to point Y which will result in something like this (exaggerated) imgur.com/a/6JR43qy The point here I guess is that at a gaming computing level 1ms is a very long time. Your game frames are ideally generated probably in 3-4ms time period but that is end to end system frames. Your mouse camera (sensor) is capable of taking pictures FAR faster than what the mouse processor currently can keep up with, so the logical thing to do is to have the mouse processor operate faster to keep up with the sensor. In theory, your game engine (assuming it's not locked to updating the input position every 1ms) can get a more accurate input of where you moved your mouse to get from point X to point Y. It's important to understand that ultimately if you move from point X to point Y, you will always end up at point Y because the algorithm itself will be accurate. The question is do the data points in between matter that much? Looking at various scenarios, small movements? Probably not. Big flicks? In some very exceptional edge cases, maybe. But most likely probably not. The test you do at 2:15 I wouldn't necessarily expect to see "better" drawings of those shapes. I'd potentially expect worse because you are getting finer movements that you wouldn't have seen before. So any tiny imperfections in the movement will now translate into data. It's really hard to see where the benefits of 8k data will be except on paper, but assuming in the future we will get end to end system latency into sub 1ms time then it possibly will have benefits there.
All this useless wall of text just to conclude "it's possible in the future it might be useful". And it's pure speculation too, because literally nothing you said confutates anything said in video. ChatGTP ahh comment.
I'm on a wired mouse anyway and my PC is good enough to handle it. Only 8k causes some problems in older games but that's about it. On wireless I only ever use 2k or 4k. I would never buy a dongle just for that though. If it's included, cool, otherwise don't bother.
@@jR0xas I have a pretty decent PC (7900x with a 3080) and I honestly cannot notice any difference when switching between the different polling rates on my mouse.
Could not agree more. I've been sharing the same thoughts for a while now. 2-8k is absolutely bs marketing. They need to sell us a new number because nobody gives a shit about DPI anymore.
I still use 125 Hz with some of my mice, because that's all they support. I hardly notice the difference from 1000 Hz. I think that's because my monitor is limited to 75 Hz refresh rates. You are right on shape being everything. I am curious about your thoughts on vertical mice. I used a semi-vertical mouse for several years, but I'm more of a casual FPS player, and was more of an Unreal Tournament fan anyways, which doesn't require as precise aim as Quake. I'm currently using a Logitech M110 mouse, with 250 Hz polling rate and 1000 dpi. It seems to work pretty good for aim training and fast FPS shooters like Quake. I really like your channel... so few hardware channels have decades of experience to bring to the reviews. I don't think people can appreciate how much better even cheap mice are now days as compared to what we had to use back in the late 90's and early 2000's.
I would love to see LTT make a blind test like they did with monitor refresh rates a few years back. grab a couple of pros and some casuals and see if any of them can actually tell the difference between 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 8000hz. my assumption would be that linus and some of the LTT staff would maybe be able to tell the difference between 500 and 1000 and that pros could maybe feel the difference between 1000 and anything higher, but could not accurately identify differences between 2000, 4000 and 8000 in a blind scenario
No test is required. The difference between 60-500hz monitors can be filmed and you will see the difference in slo-mo. But the difference between 1000-8000hz in mice is so small that it would be too hard to film. And it would be impossible to feel
@@jprice_ that difference is definitely something you can feel but 500 vs 1000 should be nearly impossible to feel a difference. Everything over 1k is nothing more than a marketingjoke and no one will ever feel any difference.
@@iPain3G you can definitely feel the jump from 500 to 1000 lol. Especially in things where fluid motion happens over long periods (bhopping/surfing on counterstrike for example). Over 1k; theres really no difference. Its like jumping from 60hz to 144hz. This is a MASSIVE difference; but above 144hz, and the proportionality of gain becomes less and less.
There is actually someone who did record a blind test themselves using a python script setting the polling rate to a random number. He could consistently tell the difference by moving the cursor in circles in desktop, between 1000, 2000 and 4000 Hz. Still, it's really a stretch. EDIT: here it is th-cam.com/video/s5ukK3krGp4/w-d-xo.html
I switched to 500Hz after the release of Modern Warfare 2019. For some reason, the mouse movement felt kind of weird at 1000Hz. And then I found two solutions: either disable the Filmic T2x anti-aliasing and play with horrible pixel shadows, or just lower the mouse polling rate to 500Hz. I chose the second option.
just drag your mouse pointer across a black screen and film it at 30 fps. There is a difference in how jittery the trajectory looks, which is a little bit important is FPS games Sure, by itself half a milisecond isn't much, but it can add up with other components. In a competitive envirorment every little bit counts. Plus you're not saving half a milisecond once, you save it on every individual microadjusment you make. As an avid aim trainers enjoyer i can definitely say there is a mesurable difference
I got the Scyrox V8 for $70 which is good value considering its under 40g and 8k polling with good web based software. I definitely do not recommend shelling out a ton of money just for 8k top brand mice.
@@lemon1x LMAO, i got you so mad i turned you into a stalker 🤣🤣 Difference is, i'm not a native speaker and i don't claim to be "better than a robot" like your sorry ahh did.
@@olisk-jy9rz $70 is really not very expensive compared to the main brands of mice. Mice are just getting more expensive in general. But you can get cheaper good mouse for about $40-50
@@olisk-jy9rz stalker is an absurd claim big bro, seeing that comment took a singular click. you are begging for scraps. all i did was make an observation of you being hypocritical. that is all 🤥🤥🤡
I have a 280Hz monitor, and honestly, the only noticeable difference between 1K and 4K polling rates is a slight improvement in cursor consistency when moving it around in Windows. That’s really it. In games, most are optimized to track your mouse smoothly at 1K polling, so unless you’re using a 4000Hz monitor, I doubt anyone could actually feel a difference beyond a placebo effect. In reality, 4K polling mostly brings the drawbacks mentioned in this video, without offering any meaningful advantages. Same for 8k obviously.
I would say 2k Hz is a good sweet spot to be honest, it just makes sense. If there's an argument to be made against 2k vs 1k, we can also do the same for 1k vs 500 Hz. I don't think many people (if any) will consistently be able to tell the difference between 500hz and 1k Hz, but it's logical to conclude it is slightly better and can give slight performance gains just like 2k vs 1k, even though the gains will for sure be diminished.
there's visible difference between 500hz and 1000hz, just watch optimumtech's video on polling rate. anything over 1khz is overkill and doesn't actually yield better results that are even remotely noticeable
Thumbs up for trying to keep people grounded in reality. Gaming mouse subreddit along with modern mouse reviewers did a lot of work in the opposite directions for years.
I doubt any person will ever exceed the capabilities of a 2k polling rate. (probably not even 1k fully but just as ease of mind set it to 2k, and you are golden.)
Honestly, I was one of those people who thought that higher polling rate is naturally better. I didn't really understand what it actually is but this vid is really informative and easy to understand. Honestly a great watch. I'll stick to my 1khz mouse
I have 540hz monitor and playing 4k poolling rate when i forgot to turn the pooling rate to 4k i spot the difference in few seconds but between 4k to 8k i cant spot a thing. I think 4k is enough for now
You're one of, if not THE most trustworthy guy in this regard. if you say 8000hz is not usable right now, or doesn't feel like it is the next step, i'm very inclined to believe you. But being optimistic... maybe upcoming games and hardware will be able to make better use of this technology. In cases like this, i like to think these stuff are just ahead of it's time. But let's see. Fingers crossed!
There are also some fixes that helped make 8khz stable for me In your motherboard bios enable/disable these settings Disable c states Disable cppc Disable cppc preferred cores L1 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled -L2 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled These settings made 8khz stable for me
I feel like I can barely discern the difference between 1k and 2k polling when I am specifically using them back to back, and looking for the differences in smoothness. The difference that I think I can discern is so minor that I still run 1k though. It's not worth my concern, so I'll take the extra battery life.
2k/4k/8k polling rates are all gimmicks. These do not make you a "better" gamer, It the consistency with your current main mouse and in-game knowledge that make you better.
@@Seas0nedChef While that's fair enough, the jump in CPU load from 1k to 2k polling rate is negligible compared to 1k to 4k, which does demand a high end CPU. The amount of times you'll have 2k not run well but 1k do are pretty much the same as having 1k not run well but 500 do. I don't know enough to tell you why the diminishing returns nosedive so aggressively at 4k tbh.
Great video as always. Now we need a video on keyboard. I admit I never tested a wooting but I've tested others that are responsive (drunkdeer I have two). And while I can see the difference in responsiveness, while playing CS2 I honestly don't see a difference. I can strafe/stop the same using both and mechanical. I don't use Snap Tap.
I use 8k with my viper v3 pro and have no stuttering. The only issue is the battery drain. But I charge it every night before the next day and it is fine. In CS I always play better with 8k. My kills per death is always better than with 1k. So 8k makes a difference. I do not care if it is a placebo effect. I only noticed with 8k I win more matches and make more HS. So the test of yours cannot be correct. I have an intel 13600k and a geforce 4070 ti with 32GB RAM and a 144hz Monitor. But... maybe I am just lucky that everything is working with 8k with no stutter problems.
@@hashpipe710 oh well. I am glad valve has made CS2 future proof and 8k works without stutter. I hope they use the same code for the next coming versions of CS.
Grip style and game style isn’t directly reflected in marketing, but I think it’s pretty well covered among the community However hand size is, by what I can tell, totally neglected. Which is strange since hand size varies so much. And you like you pointed out - there really aren’t even many different mouse shapes at all, they’re mostly clones I personally want a wider mouse. Which to be fair I could use clay or something to achieve that, but it’s surprising how it simply doesn’t exist. There’s only very slight variation in the width of mice
I think that youtuber techless made really god vid about this topic. In it, He stated that statistically his results are 1.8% better at 8kHz compared to 1kHz (and this despite the fact that his FPS in Aim Trainer fluctuated at 8kHz from 1k to ~600, which might make you think - what would it be like if the frames were locked at the appropriate level, as in the game) In addition, according to his calculations, we can state with 96% certainty that the better results were not just a matter of coincidence. For a long time I did not use 8/4kHz in the mouse because it caused me problems with FPS (for example in Apex), but I managed to remedy this by: Disabling virtualization in BIOS (and with it unfortunately VBS) Disable c states A fresh, good installation of Windows 11 23H2 (currently 24H2) Updating chipset drivers (B650, 7800x3d) Now I don't see any problems with stability / stutters in any game. (Apex, Fortnite, The finals, CS2 and also lots of SP games) Edit.1 BTW to even be able to have benefits of more then 1kHz you need to be at 1600 DPI (IMO 3200 would be ideal)
? he spoke about this in the video, You reaction time is more than 150ms, 8k deacrease lag by 0.8ms, you have more chance to win lottery than for this diff to make you win ONE INTERACTION in game
@@Low-Eek it would make you win any interaction where there'd be two players shooting each other at the same time. The one with the faster mouse would win.
@@axiriac I mean just because trying to notice 1khz vs 2khz+ is very difficult doesn't mean you don't benefit. It's still runs faster regardless of your perception.
There's an input delay every time the mouse is in complete still position to a full motion. Once in motion it 1 ms at 1000hz and no one will feel the difference after it's 'in the motion' but that sudden start is what could be the measured case at high DPI low sense scenario.
I'd be super interested to know how polling rates and hall effect is improving keyboard technology and quality in general, if that's something youre interested in.
It doesnt matter guys... 25+ years in fps and Ill shit on anyone with any mouse.. as long as you have 1000mhz polly ur good. Just grab the lightest and most comfortable..
I feel like the footage was plenty noticeable though. The left seemed to consistently be updating at a faster rate than the right. I think if you’re gonna put a number on it, let it be 2k, and then hell why not let it be 4k. At that point why not max it out and let it be 8k This way you have maxed it out and you never have to be concerned about “but we *could* upgrade it and get that slight advantage in specific circumstances when the input occurs right before the refresh”
I agree with the premise, but bringing up the 150-200ms human reaction time is silly here for the same reason as it's silly for comparing low framerate vs high framerate. Following this logic, the latency difference between 60hz and 144hz is insignificant at "only" 10ms, but we all know these 10ms are a huge deal in competitive play. As 10ms absolutely IS a big deal, the 8.75% additional advantage of 1ms vs 0.125ms sounds pretty good. Still, I agree this is very very deep in the diminishing returns territory, and your money is almost definitely better spent on other ways of reducing latency.
The latency advantage of 2/4/8k polling is an order of magnitude greater than even the best human can possibly detect. Monitor refresh is a completely different subject. High polling rate mice are 100% a marketing gimmick.
@@shadynas7y Monitor refresh isn't only about latency, sure, but it ultimately contributes to it in a very similar way. I play at high sens, and I've developed hand-eye coordination to 'refocus' my eyes on the image immediately after doing big flicks (both in combat and just scanning the environment), and I can tell when I'm running at 250fps instead of 400 (1.5ms difference), because I can detect residual motion on the screen after doing the flick, motion resulting from worse latency. Hand-eye coordination timings can be developed to a very fine degree indeed, and though I can't quite claim to be there myself, I could believe that some players would indeed notice the
Oddly enough, I feel a slight difference between 1k and 2k Hz on the desktop, but in-game, not at all, but then again, I don't think that's the polling rate causing that. The highest polling rate I would ever go is 2000, because (1), it's a higher number so I like it (2), it barely affects the battery life compared to 1k Hz, and (3) it doesn't mess with my CPU and most older games can handle 2k fine. Unfortunately, a lot of games (Apex, PUBG, some indie games, and older fps games) have problems with higher polling rate. In Apex, the game will randomly lower your sensitivity for about a second, which has caused some really akward gunfights. PUBG has microstutters by default, and they seem to get worse on 2000 Hz, and certain indie games that run on the unity engine (Valheim, Lethal company, Phasmophobia) do not handle anything above 2000 Hz well, heck, even 2000 Hz has a few issues. But as always, if it's a gimmick that makes you feel like you play better, then I don't see why not, but otherwise, I wouldn't bother with higher polling rates.
Yup 100%. I have a finalmouse ULX and I'm way more excited about their between polling technology (which is only available at 1000hrz polling) than the 8000 hrz. Anything over 1000 is just diminishing or even negative returns. Honestly I think even the between polling tech is not needed, I just thought it was neat and I like the theory behind the finalmouse business model (even if I don't like the execution).
@@hatty101 I'm going to guess that you're asking what the technology I'm talking about actually is. When the ULX is polling at 1000hrz, if you click the a button the mouse will ignore the polling rate and send a poll immediately. This gives the ULX one of the fastest click response times in the industry without being too harsh on battery or your CPU.
@@thewarmwind6171 my razer 8khz have the world fastest click response time afaik, it regersiter a click at 8000hz even if u set it to 1000hz from the app.
With the speed you were moving the mouse there, it was likely not sending data at even close to 8000hz. Probably more like 500hz. You only truly reach higher polling rate figures on very fast swipes, with at least 1600 DPI. Can check this with MouseTester. However, I agree with the minuscule benefit. I tend to use my mice at either 1000hz or 2000hz, as most games are completely fine with the latter and the battery drain isn't unmanageable.
I asked a company about this, they said it doesn't matter because at 8khz, it's always responding at 0.125ms. Also it only seems slow because it's filmed at 1000fps and slowed down in post.
@@RocketJumpNinja It does marginally matter, because motion latency is its own thing. The difference is still absolutely tiny, in both Techpowerup and RTINGS testing results. Some mice at 1k have better motion latency than others at 8k. It honestly comes down to sensor implementation more than "number go bigger." A bad implementation of motion sync would legitimately affect latency more than polling rate, at a "staggering" ~1ms. I like having the best tech on mice, but shape and feel is significantly more important. Preferably all of these things, which is how I feel about my Scyrox V8. Incredible mouse.
As a controller player I can feel a difference of 4 ms of gpu render time on a 240hz monitor. I also don't feel any difference when I'm not warmed up. But I think I will never distenguish a difference of a fraction of a ms
Stair effect on low dpi, higher latency, pixel skipping... I use 3200 and drop in game sense, 1600 seems fine too as it's a multiple. It used to be you wanted the mice native dpi because they interpolated past that (hence all the fake 10s of thousands dpi claims back then) but not anymore tho. I'd say finding a sensor without jitter and a shape you like is key. 8000hz is fine but you'll only notice a little if you're twitchy with a mouse. It's not going to make you play or use a mouse better if you don't already have good control and reflex.
I beleave another argument on this is that a lot of sensors really are 1600 or 3200 dpi (native), the 12000 and higher dpi's were/are mostly interpolated. Like some kind of upscaling, fake shit, because of 'artifacts' / 'faults' by that. Not sure if that the case on (more) recent mice and insane dpi's..
@@dedeath That is not true, that believe is false, you just need to move the mouse less to detect the movement, that doesn't mean it has lower latency. I have pointed out that in battle(nonsense)'s video, but he deleted my comment
Its a good feature for fps games if u playing on pro lvl, but still no need cause u can't even compare 1k 4k and 8k on 540hz screen using slow motion camera, maybe it feels better and can cause better performance but still not a gamechanger
1000hz. If you have a very high refresh rate monitor, 360hz plus, I could just about accept a minor discussion about 2K polling. Basically, you're saying everything I have been screaming at Bordzy and various other content creators about for years. It's COMPLETE BOLLARDS and NOBODY, NOBODY will do a double blind a/b between 1k and 4k - thank you so much for this video. I respect You and Optimum. And that reaction test along with all the other links in the chain has been in my mind for years about this polling rate GARBAGE. The content creators by not calling this crap out infuriate me becuase kids are wasting their money.
Glad to help! Yeah every time I see 8k I'm like "Ok, anything actually interesting about this mouse?". Always been anti-marketing with this channel, so figured it was time to address it properly because I'm seeing way too many people say things like "I'm not buying a mouse unless it's 8k".
boardzy really ticked me off when he set about telling everyone that 4k polling was better than 1k. It's unlikely he understands that we're talking about the difference between 0.00025 seconds and 0.001 seconds. Even if the difference is perceived in a blind test (unlikely, and has never been demonstrated), you will not increase your aiming percentages at all
@@BOZ_11 Yes, I can quote him. regarding 4K "you need to get your eyes checked" - he lost me after that I can tell you... Where's that double blind test BOARDZY? I've ridden him pretty hard since that day I can tell you.... I have nothing against what he does he needs something to talk about on his channel but when it comes at the cost of BSing kids with paper specs to make money, well, I've busted his balls since. He probably thinks I'm a nutter ;P These are BASIC 5 BUTTON MICE which 'work'....They do what they're supposed to do. These paper specs are to drive up the price, period. A lot of other manufacturers are showing just how much these mice are really worth... £50 for the latest and greatest tech. £150 mice are just a RIP OFF (I say just as I'm in Valorant TDM using my Keris 2 :/ - hey, I like the shape and weight ;D )
There seems to be a noticeable upgrade from 240 to 480 oled or 540 tn, the problem is that theres 2 games that can reach that and you really need a good pc to do it, the amount of investment is really not worth it
I can tell the difference between 1k and 4k on a 360hz display. Now, I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other but I can tell a difference if I squeeze the mouse making my hand shake really fast which translates to a specific movement of the cursor. I've done this in a blind test where my brother changed the setting without me knowing. This is with a Superlight 2 with the 4k firmware. I would still be happy just using 1k but I can tell the difference.
So you have a test that can figure it out, would you know in game with regular use? And I'll give that test a try, what movement should be I looking for? Thanks!
@@RocketJumpNinja I can probably not see it ingame or during any practical use and my explanation is most likley not very useful or clear. But I simply found a perceivable difference in how the cursor appeared to move on the desktop while "flexing" my hand in a way that made the mouse and thus the cursor vibrate very fast. Doing this I could "feel" a difference between the two leading me to be able to guess correctly every time. Again tho, I think it needs to be stressed that this was me with my setup. If you sat me down at a random PC with a random mouse I might not be able to tell at all. As previously mentioned I'm using a 360hz monitor with normal overdrive and a superlight 2 @ 4k polling rate and 1600 dpi. 6/11 win sens with no accel. This is very much not scientifically whatsoever but I thought I was worth a mention. EDIT: This perceived difference might not be a reduction in noticable input delay or anything like that but rather just increased variance in the polling itself. As you probably already know we rarely reach the full 4k at 1600dpi since it requires us to move the mouse really really fast unless we multiply the sens inside whatever game we play. So what I perceive might be a reduction in consistency. A consistency found in 1k polling since we actually reach the 1k cap more often. Again, this is all speculation since I have not used any software capable to map this in any readable way.
@@kruger7796 When you say you can notice it while moving the cursor in desktop, did you disable the Windows' Enhance pointer precision? That setting actually enables mouse acceleration and is on by default on Windows. There are differences from 125Hz to 8KHz if there is mouse acceleration. However, using raw input (disable mouse acceleration) and I cannot notice any difference and I have a 240Hz monitor. Some games even disable mouse acceleration by default but some don't.
@@clarkclone Yes. As I mentioned in the edit I disable mouse accel and keep the speed at 6/11. I only tested 1k and 4k on a 360hz monitor. Again tho, it might not be a reduction in input lag or anything like that but merely the difference in the available polling span. It is a lot easier to cap out 1k hz at 1600dpi than it is to cap out 4k hz. There is a noticable difference but weather it is a positive or negative one is up for debate. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that 4k hz feels "better" than 1k hz. Just that it is a noticable difference.
You can definitely tell the difference between 500hz and 1000 hz as the 1000hz is quite aggressive to response while the 500hz is a lot smoother, which makes it easier to track a static target while you are in motion So I did a test with 400 dpi and 8000hz (finalmouse) and the feel is both smooth and responsive. It's worth giving it a try =)
If you look at the video from MS, "Applied Sciences Group: High Performance Touch", it does a good job of showing why latency matters. If we can't see the difference in game, I think the question because what's going that it's not observable. Is there a bottle neck? Is the test flawed, and unable to show the difference? Something else? When people optimize their computer for 8k gaming. They try to reduce system latency in general. The thing is, those optimization also work for 1k gaming.
It's not about feeling the difference, performance is still measurable, and the gains stack. 1ms there, another 2ms there, another 1ms here, and you have 4ms which a lot of people don't realise they can feel (try it yourself in Latency Split test by Aperture Grille).
@@BOZ_11 mmm I don’t think so. Depends on your configuration/setup. If you have 240hz with VRR (gsync or freesync), turn on VRR (also, fps below refresh, or reflex on), setup timer resolution on 0.5 ms, disable dynamic tick on bcdedit, tweak bios to disable any form of energy saving, than try your mouse with 500-1000-2000 and came back here to modify your comment, pls don’t share misinformation on internet.
if we get over the added accuracy of 8k polling rate the most important thing for 8k is lowering the input lag which is most important thing if you play high skill level competitive games. for a casual dude even 250 hrz is ok
i have a 360Hz QD OLED and play FPS games for over two decades now. i can feel a tiny difference when i move the mouse around on the desktop between 1000 and 8000Hz. but there is even on the highest end displays at over 500 FPS literally no difference at all... except of a lot of games breaking at 8KHz like cyberpunk.
great video i agree with nearly everything you said as long as a mouse is as accurate as it can be under 5k dpi and fits your grip style/has buttons that you need you're good. some games need a million buttons on the side where as most games you will get along fine with 2 i hate when people argue about how high the dpi goes on their mouse mine goes to 12k and i dont think its ever been over 2000 lol
I have been sticking with 2K polling rate even though firmware updates came out for my mouse to support 4K and now 8K. At 2K I have no issues in games and battery life is great.
I did get it correct that the left was 8k. Case closed 8k is worth it. On the serious note, if you have a 480hz 1000$ monitor, may as well get a 2000 or 4000hz mouse just to have it, and perhaps placebo yourself.
To my mind, Xtrfy mz1 will be forever the best mouse. I am very glad to use this incredible mouse. This mouse became an asset to me, thank you Rocket Jump Ninja for your design
Superfluous or not, I want the machine running as fast and smooth as it can. It is often the case that a high specification, regardless of whether you use it to its potential, denotes superior quality standards. By all means purchase what you think will realistically provide value. I just want for the technology to progress towards more fluid inputs and faster rendering.
But as shown, you're more likely to get stutters, lower battery and other issues by pushing the equipment to that extent... this is one of those cases where less can be more overall. Gotta find the balance point for best performance in this case.
@RocketJumpNinja The squeaky wheel gets the grease. When an increased standard causes a different limit to be revealed, that just points to the next thing needing improvement. I know you are focused on there here and now, and I get that, but in the long term there is no reason we shouldn't progress the technology to its logical extreme. I currently don't experience those issues you describe. My FPS of choice is older as well, so I guess I am exceptionally lucky. If I do find myself having issues, I can always dial it back. I don't demand high polling rates, I would just rather have them where possible. It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. There is no need to criticize a 'top mouse,' as you term it, for being over provisioned. The price of what is perceived to be the best tool for the job will invariably be extortionate, and this isn't directly correlated to the amount of spend on its technological spec. It wasn't long ago that far worse products than what we have today demanded premium prices. I expect that any product that wishes to take the top place over the incumbent would have an easier time implementing at least an equivalent specification than it would campaigning for consumers to evolve their views on what is necessary. I say let them spend some of that premium they demand on making it objectively better.
@@Electric_Bill As long as they give us cheaper alternatives with the same shapes (and new ones), then sure! I'm not against tech moving forward, I just want the best mice possible... according to that balance I was talking about. The sensor upgrades for wireless to allow for long battery life have been great, but regular functionality was basically flawless even back with the 3360, so companies spending obscene amounts of money on developing new sensors is a waste of money that ends up being put on the consumer. If they want to keep pushing and funding that the money they get from the extreme mice they release, fair enough, but we gotta do something about these costs for a while, so that'll be the focus. Inflation is hitting, so how can we lower cost? One way is not pushing to these (I would deem unnecessary) tech improvements. Squeaky wheels get the grease, yup, so this is what's going to squeak for a while. Then we'll move onto the next squeak. Nothing I'm saying has to be forever, maybe 8k will be good some day, but it's just not needed yet so advertising it like it's a big advantage is just... yeah marketing.
I have a an OP1 8k (wired) and I've tried polling rates above 1k, but at least with my setup and the games I play I felt it was worse overall because of the stuttering issues I saw in-game. Maybe in the future if/when this is reduced so that 8k has little to no impact on frametimes, maybe then I'll be able to decide if I notice an improvement from 8k; but for now, I'll be sticking to 1k polling as it's good enough for me and the biggest thing holding me back (other than my own skill ofc) is fps, frametimes, and stability. Also while I would recommend the op1 8k as it's a great value gaming mouse I personally would probably prefer a mouse with similar weight and a shape that better suits my hand that's wireless and sacrifice the 8k potential as I don't even use it.
Nice, the more people we can get to see through marketing, the more the companies will have to focus on things that actually matter... like consistency, weight, buttons and of course, shape!
i use a deathadder v3 pro i feel 4sure the 8k hz, use 800 dpi, just do a 180, you will see the diff. if i try to use 4k hz i cant even turn arround the sameway, so the sensivity changes thats a fact. i use .89 sens, with 8k i can react just fine with enimies flanking, but with 4k the sensivity it comes short, for what i used 8k for my advantage is using a lower sens with a higher capacity to react and reach the flanks
I find that the thing that matters the most is Shape, Click placement, Pretravel. These factors influence the latency way more then hz on a mouse. Since the body will always limit you more then the Gear. It´s like riding a bike. Having a aluminium road bike that is fittet well will always be better then having a badly fittet Carbone one. Doesn´t matter if a crank length of 165 makes your rotation speed slightly faster and hence gives you 5 more watts if your position is so ass that you lose 150 watts. Same for 8k. If everything is optimized and you want to min max absolutely go for 2-8k but saying it does make a significant difference is just bs.
8khz obviously its not necessary, but the persons like me with 540hz monitor and a really good mouse like the sword x, we can feel the difference easier. But its a side thing , the really important things u have to check is -The shape -Your grip(and Hand size) -budget - Qc(mouse) when you have all that sorted out, you can see if you have the necessary hardware to use 8khz on the mouse.
I was testing this on the Asus 540hz monitor mentioned... so maybe you're way more sensitive to it than I am or had different settings, but from what I could tell, the higher hz monitor didn't seem to help.
This is what I've been saying since higher polling rates came out. Many people don't seem to understand just how fast 1ms is. The best way to tell if a higher polling rate is really making a difference is in a click reaction test. If you're consistently faster with 8k, sure, go for it. But you should only be less than a millisecond difference lol. If you're really looking to get smoother and more precise mouse inputs, raise your DPI a little and lower in game sens. That's raising the sensors' resolution, giving you finer control in game, actually a tangible difference that you can achieve on any mouse. I'm still loving how far gaming peripherals have come, especially wireless mice, but I'd never buy or recommend one on its polling rate.
We could use higher DPIs, but games have a sensitivity slider and don't even support higher numbers, realistically. Even on brand new games, many barely support 1600, with you needing to have the slider down at 2.25 or whatever
Idk if you know this but w11 runs alot better with high polling rate mice. The scheduler was not prioritizing the mouse at all in pre 23h2 w11 or still not in w10. That being said it def differs from mouse to mouse, 2k seems to be the sweet spot. I have yet to use a 8k wireless mouse that did not feel like crap with tons of dropped inputs, the only time i ever felt like it being better was the viper 8k on halo infinite. I could be wrong but i would imagine higher polling rate helping with accuracy with large and fast movements say only a low sens player or 50cm360 or more. I dont have the tools to test to see where it would be an issue and if it would ever be an issue.
I would love to see someone make videos 3D printing and testing viewer submitted mouse shapes. Basically a mouse version of Major Hardware's Fan Showdown series.
I recently got the Lamzu mini 4k and I was able to test a polling rate at 4000 Hz for the first time. On the one hand, the mouse battery drained very quickly and on the other, the cursor moved too quickly. I found that I aimed better with a little mouse latency. The latency makes the cursor drag after your mouse movement and I "feel" my aim better. Moreover, I can see during the comparison, the right cursor dragging after the mouse has moved. However, I think that a polling rate at 2000 Hz can improve my performance during tracking.
imo as long as the game can run 8k i use 8k when you did the test i thought the left looked smoother than the right and the left was 8k, so i don't think its a gimmick or a need as of right now, its just nice to have
I'll be honest with you I feel like I can notice 8k when i switch to it but one time i turned it down to 1k to play a story game and forgot to turn it back up and only realised after i finished a ranked game lol
I say it's more to do with people that don't understand how things work and buy into instant hype on something new with big numbers. More important is good monitor at high end Hz first before mouse polling increase becomes needed. To add, some focusing on high polling rate while having 240Hz at best or a game that doesn't go higher. To make a use use and have a need for higher polling rate, you first need much faster monitors, game running at very high fps then you follow up with needed increase in polling rate. As it's ideal to have polling be say near 10x over monitors refresh rate. As of now 8KHz is not needed, more like good to have if implemented properly for future. So once 1000Hz OLED and competitive fast fps games that can run so with new good engine (hopefully new Quake), then it will be time. Same thing with CPI I'm on 1600 for a long time now and if I'd switch to 4K res I'd bump it to 3200 also. Turning fast you're traveling more pixels. So why have pixel skip or missed intervals in between lower polling on fast flicks where enemy may be between two polling intervals. Definitely no need to be too hyper focused on pinnacle stuff, but fun for peak performance in future. I love following monitor tech and stuff and finally OLEDs now. Good to read Blur Busters on these things, fun stuff. Some of the topics discussed for example: forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9982&p=80545
Newer Sensors tend to have less drift than older sensors. 2 mice with similar shape, your probably better off with the mouse with the new sensor. If your trying to use above 800 on an older sensor, it usually has significantly higher drift at the higher DPS. Similarly some of the new sensors are trash at 400, and get better as you go up to a certain point. But then start to decline at some DPI point. People playing at 400 DPI on a super old mice, can have a ton more drift then a recent sensor at 400 DPI.
you just wanted an excuse to show us that sick lightning footage
Worth it
LMAO
Totally worth it. Almost made my day
Ngl, was my favourite part of the video. And to make it even better, while I was editing this last night, we had a crazy thunderstorm, so while replaying this clip flashing on my screen, I was watching the lightning flash through my window too.
(I use UPS so don't worry, computer was safe from the storm, no power outages anyway)
Where's my Lifeline movement video Mokey?
A buddy picked up an 8k mouse couldn't stop talking about how amazing it felt, how it improved his game etc etc. I was over about 4 months ago and set it to 1k. Was over again a couple weeks ago and it was still 1k. I asked him how he was liking the mouse, he started going on and on again. I told him to check his polling rate and told him it was all in his head. He was pissed, not at me, but at spending that much money and it all being in his head.
An actual blind test... where you don't even know you're being tested.
@@RocketJumpNinja my buddy did the same thing to me but I noticed from 2k to 1k but by very little but I was 100 percent right out of 20 tests.. i was aware of the 19 other tests tho so maybe some luck. Either way I have many 8k mice and will probably never use 8k over just 2k
@@RocketJumpNinja I feel the difference in smoothness and responsiveness right away if I change the setting from 8 kHz to 1 kHz while playing CS2, and my flicks in quick situations aren't as accurate with 1 kHz because I've gotten used to the 8 kHz setting. In general, higher polling rate kind of makes it feel like the mouse has more DPI without changing the actual tracking speed, but you definitely can feel the difference in smoothness and flicks if you suddenly change from 8 kHz to 1 kHz.
also depending on the mouse, "8k" isnt 8k. its probably 3.5k-5.5k. i have three "8k" mice and none of them do actual 8k
@@Raven.tech614 What dpi do you use?
I can feel the difference easily, the difference in how long the mouse works on battery :D
Most people ignore that monitor and ping matter way more than polling rate
So true, ping is probably the most neglected aspect ever imo next to mousepad choice
Definitely true. I always recommend to people to save up for an OLED because it's the device that's gonna make the most difference by far apart from maybe a better PC.
absolutely! theres so much missinformation out there concerning Hz and net settings!
People want to change what they can change with minimal efforts.
Ping difference can't be easily changed, and monitor requires more fps to see the effects which leads to upgrade, thus more effort.
@@NickSharpxmousepad is huge. Can completely transform the experience
Great video man! I will preach this message til I’m in the ground. No human person can detect .12ms of latency.
Thanks champ! Yeah I would love if a channel did genuine blind tests with someone who truly believed they could tell the difference... they'd have to be super human or very lucky to get it right consistently, surely.
amen brother
It's hard to notice, but you do notice them in VR whey playing something super fast paced like Beat Saber on Expert and Expert+ levels. But it just the accuracy gets worse and more mistakes. E.g Display Port delay (let's call it real time (it's around 15-20ms) vs compressed through Oculus Link or similar that adds 35-60ms of latency on top for compression decompression etc., and you miss so much more blocks.
So, yeah, when latency adds up you feel it :)
@@RocketJumpNinja you can take a look at Latency Split Test: Find Your Lag Threshold made by Aperture Grille. People have done that, and we are multiple people who have been able to get 10-12 correct at around 4-5ms
@@RocketJumpNinja by this logic u shouldnt be able to feel the difference of 500hz and 1000hz, since its only a 1ms difference
Thank you for confirming what I always thought was the case but never knew how to reliably check.
8000hz is old now, i pref 30 000hz or 40 500hz imagine using a mouse with 8k in 2024
My mouse runs on depleted uranium, slaying noobs really is better at gamma ray frequency polling rate. Downside: I've started to develop some weird skin condition, not sure why....
@@henrikw377maybe you will grow some additional fingers. We could need those for all those hotkeys in modern games. 😂
Imagine how long battery would last if mice could do 40khz
@@jesukxd8494 bro i got 5 minutes of battery life but its so smooth i promise
Make sure you use at least 20k DPI to take full advantage of your 40kHz polling!
Disabling CPU C-States on almost any system will allow 2khz and higher to work in pretty much every game. Higher polling rates will still raise your overall CPU usage, but disabling C-States will allow the interrupts to be processed properly.
4khz and higher does feel a bit smoother, personally, but it's very inconsequential. When games start running at 1000fps and 1000hz monitors are the norm, then sure, 8khz polling will be "better".
even running at 1000fps and with 1000hz monitors, your movements and reactions aren't ever going to necessitate 8khz of updates from the mouse, and you wouldn't be able to perceive the difference in movements anyway.
for humans there will never be any benefit to a polling rate that high.
Disabling C-States wont improve anything about polling rate.
You can run high polling rate even with C-States.
@@AquilaeYT This is verifiably untrue. Older platforms especially benefit from this. My 9900k with C-States enabled gets the same issues RJN has in this video. Disabling C-States solves it. It's literally the cores being put into lower power states dynamically by C-States that causes the USB interrupts to not be processed properly on many platforms. Some of the newer, better CPUs are more efficient at this natively, true, but even they can still benefit from having it disabled.
@@ArrythmiaFPS Think what you want but it is simply how it is.
There is strictly no direct related issues between high polling rate and C-States setting, this may due to your specific configuration.
I don't know about your old specific configuration but C-States won't directly interfere with USB in newer platform and don't restrict the amount of data and the rate of it, there is no difference at all, you can doubt as you want but keep in mind that all motherboard are don't optimized the same as others.
In your case, that's just subjective.
@ArrythmiaFPS Do you have some documentation or proof(s) or this is just gist and speculation? I want to believe and test it myself, but it would be a waste of time if it really doesn't make a difference.
Ive had the same thoughts for ages. Its just not meaningful enough to use 8k. Cool to see tech pushed further but other aspect of a gaming mouse are far more meaningful. And also your time training/improving
Yeah for sure. So what's a good way for marketers to promote mice without fancy pointless numbers? Maybe if we can give them an alternative they can start focusing on things that actually matter...
Man, I love you! This video perfectly explains why I always follow your advice about mice. I bought the Zowie FK2 based on your recommendation and used it for 7 years without a single worry. Now, here we are again discussing this topic. While all the tech channels are saying to upgrade your PC and set the DPI high to achieve that near-8kHz polling rate, your video makes it crystal clear that it’s just not worth it. Thank you so much!
I didn’t notice any improvement in latency at 2K or 4k, but I do believe I noticed an improvement in motion smoothness/jitter. When a frame is drawn and displayed every 6.9ms (144Hz) or 4.2ms (240Hz) it probably does make a difference if the delay between polling the mouse and rendering of the frame can vary by up to 1ms. Makes sense to me.
Still sent the mouse back because the shape was uncomfortable and the software was chinesium unsigned drivers.
3:40 Visually yes, but that's why people talk about smoothness and how it's supposed to feel different. It's the same about screens : there was people who used to say that you shouldn't care too much about a screen's response time « because you can't see the difference unless you are a superhuman », but you can feel it. The response time of the screen affects stuff like ghosting, artifacts or overall latency feel. That's why when I watch someone playing on a 144hz, it feels so fluid, even more than mine. Then I had someone play on my own screen ... and it felt more smooth than usual : that's because I'm not playing, even tho when playing I can feel the difference between 120 and 144 fps.
After some testing myself in OW2, just switching between 1K and 2K I could notice when I forgot I was using 1K because it would feel just a tiny bit different.
I haven't tried a complete blind test, but just like it feels more sluggish when I use 500hz, it's just a tiny bit faster when using 2K. I could go 4K but I don't want the battery to drain too fast and 8K ... I'm not even sure it's properly implemented anyway so why bother
It's not a gimmick but it's clearly not a need. You're gaining so little there's just no use for most people. Stick to whatever honestly, but don't pick an 8K mouse because it's 8K lol, that's stupid. Refresh rate should be the last thing you think about when picking a mouse, everything is at least 1K, which is already enough. Shape is much more important, build quality, clicks and buttons, sensor, software and features ... are also more important
Polling rate is about accuracy of movement data effectively. Your mouse is a small camera and DPI is the resolution of that camera. It's more sensitive because as you increase that resolution it will detect much smaller movements and translate that to input because it has a greater resolution (dots/units) in the photos it takes. Higher DPI does not add speed or acceleration, it's simply that lower dpi does not capture as much movement at the lower resolution. The DSP is the processor that compares movement from let's say position X to position Y from pictures taken 59μs (microseconds) apart. Now after that calculation has been performed your mouse will update your PC via usb every 1ms. Relative to the speed of the sensor, it's somewhat slow.
However take 8000Hz which is updating effectively every 125μs (microseconds) we are now able to update the PC based on the movement taken from our tiny camera much closer to a 1:1 ratio. What does this mean in practice? Greater accuracy in movement. The mouse is communicating a more accurate picture of how you got from position X to position Y to the PC. At 1000Hz or 1000μs or 1ms (microseconds) we are still being told we have moved from position X to position Y because the algorithm is still accurately working that out, but with 8000Hz we are getting more movement data along the way. In terms of latecy, you're gaining 875μs (microseconds) so that is basically imperceptible. What you are gaining is accuracy of movement. You have more data points along the line from point X to point Y which will result in something like this (exaggerated) imgur.com/a/6JR43qy
The point here I guess is that at a gaming computing level 1ms is a very long time. Your game frames are ideally generated probably in 3-4ms time period but that is end to end system frames. Your mouse camera (sensor) is capable of taking pictures FAR faster than what the mouse processor currently can keep up with, so the logical thing to do is to have the mouse processor operate faster to keep up with the sensor. In theory, your game engine (assuming it's not locked to updating the input position every 1ms) can get a more accurate input of where you moved your mouse to get from point X to point Y. It's important to understand that ultimately if you move from point X to point Y, you will always end up at point Y because the algorithm itself will be accurate. The question is do the data points in between matter that much? Looking at various scenarios, small movements? Probably not. Big flicks? In some very exceptional edge cases, maybe. But most likely probably not.
The test you do at 2:15 I wouldn't necessarily expect to see "better" drawings of those shapes. I'd potentially expect worse because you are getting finer movements that you wouldn't have seen before. So any tiny imperfections in the movement will now translate into data. It's really hard to see where the benefits of 8k data will be except on paper, but assuming in the future we will get end to end system latency into sub 1ms time then it possibly will have benefits there.
All this useless wall of text just to conclude "it's possible in the future it might be useful". And it's pure speculation too, because literally nothing you said confutates anything said in video. ChatGTP ahh comment.
@@olisk-jy9rz :(
I liked your comment even tho I didn't read it
aint no one reading allat
thank you for this knowledge random commenter
been telling people that the fps youre losing from running 4k/8k is going to offset the latency gain from higher polling.
its entirely unneeded
How would that case frame loss?
@@Raumance increased cpu usage by the kernel
I'm on a wired mouse anyway and my PC is good enough to handle it. Only 8k causes some problems in older games but that's about it. On wireless I only ever use 2k or 4k. I would never buy a dongle just for that though. If it's included, cool, otherwise don't bother.
@@jR0xas I have a pretty decent PC (7900x with a 3080) and I honestly cannot notice any difference when switching between the different polling rates on my mouse.
Dude, what kind of potato are you running where swapping to 8k polling "loses you frames"? Thats an absurdist angle
Could not agree more. I've been sharing the same thoughts for a while now. 2-8k is absolutely bs marketing. They need to sell us a new number because nobody gives a shit about DPI anymore.
This video was really good!, Thank you for enlightening us.
I have the Razer Deathadder V3. I can confirm 1000Hz works better in most games, not to say 8000hz causes massive nano-stutter.
feels buggy even at 2000hz too
@@bulletlotteryi agree, it feels really like shaky and the speed just didn’t feel right when i tested a mouse on 8k
My deathadder feels fine in 8k
@@Po7ent same. you just have to lower it in old games like fortnite and others. most run 8k smoothly.
Nice video! you saved me money bro! You have officially became one of the best!
360hz monitor made a WAY bigger difference for me than 2k or 4k polling. I stick to 1K now for the most part, sometimes 2k.
Same
my preferred mouse of choice (the original Model O) doesn’t even offer past 1k polling so i’ll stick to 1k cus i love the model o shape and buttons
2k is the sweet spot
I still use 125 Hz with some of my mice, because that's all they support. I hardly notice the difference from 1000 Hz. I think that's because my monitor is limited to 75 Hz refresh rates.
You are right on shape being everything. I am curious about your thoughts on vertical mice. I used a semi-vertical mouse for several years, but I'm more of a casual FPS player, and was more of an Unreal Tournament fan anyways, which doesn't require as precise aim as Quake.
I'm currently using a Logitech M110 mouse, with 250 Hz polling rate and 1000 dpi. It seems to work pretty good for aim training and fast FPS shooters like Quake.
I really like your channel... so few hardware channels have decades of experience to bring to the reviews. I don't think people can appreciate how much better even cheap mice are now days as compared to what we had to use back in the late 90's and early 2000's.
I would love to see LTT make a blind test like they did with monitor refresh rates a few years back. grab a couple of pros and some casuals and see if any of them can actually tell the difference between 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 8000hz. my assumption would be that linus and some of the LTT staff would maybe be able to tell the difference between 500 and 1000 and that pros could maybe feel the difference between 1000 and anything higher, but could not accurately identify differences between 2000, 4000 and 8000 in a blind scenario
No test is required. The difference between 60-500hz monitors can be filmed and you will see the difference in slo-mo. But the difference between 1000-8000hz in mice is so small that it would be too hard to film. And it would be impossible to feel
Heck, I want to see if they can feel the difference between 125 and 1000
@@mugiwara.eugene its not about filmed but if it can be feeled...
@@jprice_ that difference is definitely something you can feel but 500 vs 1000 should be nearly impossible to feel a difference. Everything over 1k is nothing more than a marketingjoke and no one will ever feel any difference.
@@iPain3G you can definitely feel the jump from 500 to 1000 lol. Especially in things where fluid motion happens over long periods (bhopping/surfing on counterstrike for example).
Over 1k; theres really no difference. Its like jumping from 60hz to 144hz. This is a MASSIVE difference; but above 144hz, and the proportionality of gain becomes less and less.
You will never find a single person that claims to feel the difference record themselves doing a blind test. Has never and will never happen.
i did a blind test on stream, you didnt come to watch
@@vladgaedel8521 i'm in on your street and you denied me entry as an impartial witness!
@@BOZ_11 sry i couldnt hear the knock, was busy testing pollrates
@@vladgaedel8521
We saw it dude why you think your mail keeps going missing?
There is actually someone who did record a blind test themselves using a python script setting the polling rate to a random number. He could consistently tell the difference by moving the cursor in circles in desktop, between 1000, 2000 and 4000 Hz. Still, it's really a stretch.
EDIT: here it is th-cam.com/video/s5ukK3krGp4/w-d-xo.html
nice video, I would have like a small test on 2k polling, but I also think that is a marketing thing
I switched to 500Hz after the release of Modern Warfare 2019. For some reason, the mouse movement felt kind of weird at 1000Hz. And then I found two solutions: either disable the Filmic T2x anti-aliasing and play with horrible pixel shadows, or just lower the mouse polling rate to 500Hz. I chose the second option.
just drag your mouse pointer across a black screen and film it at 30 fps. There is a difference in how jittery the trajectory looks, which is a little bit important is FPS games
Sure, by itself half a milisecond isn't much, but it can add up with other components. In a competitive envirorment every little bit counts. Plus you're not saving half a milisecond once, you save it on every individual microadjusment you make. As an avid aim trainers enjoyer i can definitely say there is a mesurable difference
unless you're pro player top 0.00001% that makes a difference
blurbusters did a good write up on why it is needed on high refresh rate monitors.
I got the Scyrox V8 for $70 which is good value considering its under 40g and 8k polling with good web based software. I definitely do not recommend shelling out a ton of money just for 8k top brand mice.
70$ IS a ton of moneys for a mouse.
@olisk-jy9rz “Well you should download some grammar program then, you need it.” dawg you cant spell either😭😭 “moneys” 🏴☠️💀
@@lemon1x LMAO, i got you so mad i turned you into a stalker 🤣🤣 Difference is, i'm not a native speaker and i don't claim to be "better than a robot" like your sorry ahh did.
@@olisk-jy9rz $70 is really not very expensive compared to the main brands of mice. Mice are just getting more expensive in general. But you can get cheaper good mouse for about $40-50
@@olisk-jy9rz stalker is an absurd claim big bro, seeing that comment took a singular click. you are begging for scraps. all i did was make an observation of you being hypocritical. that is all 🤥🤥🤡
I have a 280Hz monitor, and honestly, the only noticeable difference between 1K and 4K polling rates is a slight improvement in cursor consistency when moving it around in Windows. That’s really it. In games, most are optimized to track your mouse smoothly at 1K polling, so unless you’re using a 4000Hz monitor, I doubt anyone could actually feel a difference beyond a placebo effect. In reality, 4K polling mostly brings the drawbacks mentioned in this video, without offering any meaningful advantages. Same for 8k obviously.
I would say 2k Hz is a good sweet spot to be honest, it just makes sense. If there's an argument to be made against 2k vs 1k, we can also do the same for 1k vs 500 Hz. I don't think many people (if any) will consistently be able to tell the difference between 500hz and 1k Hz, but it's logical to conclude it is slightly better and can give slight performance gains just like 2k vs 1k, even though the gains will for sure be diminished.
there's visible difference between 500hz and 1000hz, just watch optimumtech's video on polling rate. anything over 1khz is overkill and doesn't actually yield better results that are even remotely noticeable
Thumbs up for trying to keep people grounded in reality.
Gaming mouse subreddit along with modern mouse reviewers did a lot of work in the opposite directions for years.
I once though I had my mouse at 4k and was playing really well, I went into g hub to change my dpi and I realized it was on 1k the entire time💀
Agree to everything, such a good video with excellent points!
“maybe your superhuman and better than robots-“ i am, actually
I'm pretty sure a robot would've used the correct form of "your"
@@Metacor. he's not saying hes a robot..
@@nexwga if hes better than robots he should be able to do it as well
Well you should download some grammar program then, you need it.
I doubt any person will ever exceed the capabilities of a 2k polling rate. (probably not even 1k fully but just as ease of mind set it to 2k, and you are golden.)
I use 2k polling to sync up with my 0.5ms timer resolution. Anything higher and it just causes performance issues for me
All about shape, weight, and build quality for me!
Honestly, I was one of those people who thought that higher polling rate is naturally better. I didn't really understand what it actually is but this vid is really informative and easy to understand. Honestly a great watch. I'll stick to my 1khz mouse
1Hz?
One update per second seems quite dang low... XD
@@TarenGarond Fixed! haha you're right
@@SalTeeVee For some twisted reason I now want to try Quake Live with 1 Hz polling rate...
That's how the marketing gets you, "big number go up always good" XD
Thanks for this video, Zy.
I have 540hz monitor and playing 4k poolling rate when i forgot to turn the pooling rate to 4k i spot the difference in few seconds but between 4k to 8k i cant spot a thing. I think 4k is enough for now
what games do you play? what mouse do you have?
@@pixelgaming8632 cs2, call of duty Razer Viper V3 Pro
You're one of, if not THE most trustworthy guy in this regard. if you say 8000hz is not usable right now, or doesn't feel like it is the next step, i'm very inclined to believe you.
But being optimistic... maybe upcoming games and hardware will be able to make better use of this technology. In cases like this, i like to think these stuff are just ahead of it's time.
But let's see. Fingers crossed!
There are also some fixes that helped make 8khz stable for me In your motherboard bios enable/disable these settings
Disable c states
Disable cppc
Disable cppc preferred cores
L1 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled
-L2 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled
These settings made 8khz stable for me
you disabled cpu cores to get 8K polling to work???????? Did i understand that right?
@ Wydm, it’s not disable cores it’s just running your cpu at full bore, all cores are still functional
@ it might increase temperatures possibly but it made 8khz stable along with the other fixes
And why would you go through that hassle for a useless feature like 2/4/8k anyways?
@@NoName-st6zc Some people like to believe it's not placebo, while it is. That's the only reason to use it. It 'feels' better, but it is 99% the same.
I feel like I can barely discern the difference between 1k and 2k polling when I am specifically using them back to back, and looking for the differences in smoothness. The difference that I think I can discern is so minor that I still run 1k though. It's not worth my concern, so I'll take the extra battery life.
2k/4k/8k polling rates are all gimmicks. These do not make you a "better" gamer, It the consistency with your current main mouse and in-game knowledge that make you better.
2k Is genuinely viable, with Logitech having the best implementation by a landslide.
@@hxpelives you still need a machine capable of allowing you to game at 2khz
@@Seas0nedChef While that's fair enough, the jump in CPU load from 1k to 2k polling rate is negligible compared to 1k to 4k, which does demand a high end CPU. The amount of times you'll have 2k not run well but 1k do are pretty much the same as having 1k not run well but 500 do.
I don't know enough to tell you why the diminishing returns nosedive so aggressively at 4k tbh.
2K is valid and you can feel the difference on a high refresh rate monitor
@@KarmaOTS I wish that was the case for me. I am still on 1080p 60hz
Great video as always. Now we need a video on keyboard. I admit I never tested a wooting but I've tested others that are responsive (drunkdeer I have two). And while I can see the difference in responsiveness, while playing CS2 I honestly don't see a difference. I can strafe/stop the same using both and mechanical. I don't use Snap Tap.
I use 8k with my viper v3 pro and have no stuttering. The only issue is the battery drain. But I charge it every night before the next day and it is fine. In CS I always play better with 8k. My kills per death is always better than with 1k. So 8k makes a difference. I do not care if it is a placebo effect. I only noticed with 8k I win more matches and make more HS. So the test of yours cannot be correct. I have an intel 13600k and a geforce 4070 ti with 32GB RAM and a 144hz Monitor. But... maybe I am just lucky that everything is working with 8k with no stutter problems.
Placebo
counterstrike runs well on 8k, not all games are counterstrike. I hope this helps.
@@hashpipe710 oh well. I am glad valve has made CS2 future proof and 8k works without stutter. I hope they use the same code for the next coming versions of CS.
Grip style and game style isn’t directly reflected in marketing, but I think it’s pretty well covered among the community
However hand size is, by what I can tell, totally neglected. Which is strange since hand size varies so much. And you like you pointed out - there really aren’t even many different mouse shapes at all, they’re mostly clones
I personally want a wider mouse. Which to be fair I could use clay or something to achieve that, but it’s surprising how it simply doesn’t exist. There’s only very slight variation in the width of mice
I think that youtuber techless made really god vid about this topic.
In it, He stated that statistically his results are 1.8% better at 8kHz compared to 1kHz (and this despite the fact that his FPS in Aim Trainer fluctuated at 8kHz from 1k to ~600, which might make you think - what would it be like if the frames were locked at the appropriate level, as in the game)
In addition, according to his calculations, we can state with 96% certainty that the better results were not just a matter of coincidence.
For a long time I did not use 8/4kHz in the mouse because it caused me problems with FPS (for example in Apex), but I managed to remedy this by:
Disabling virtualization in BIOS (and with it unfortunately VBS)
Disable c states
A fresh, good installation of Windows 11 23H2 (currently 24H2)
Updating chipset drivers (B650, 7800x3d)
Now I don't see any problems with stability / stutters in any game. (Apex, Fortnite, The finals, CS2 and also lots of SP games)
Edit.1
BTW to even be able to have benefits of more then 1kHz you need to be at 1600 DPI (IMO 3200 would be ideal)
Sometimes it's not about seeing the difference side by side but trusting the data that proves there's a latency advantage.
wdym?
? he spoke about this in the video, You reaction time is more than 150ms, 8k deacrease lag by 0.8ms, you have more chance to win lottery than for this diff to make you win ONE INTERACTION in game
@@Low-Eek it would make you win any interaction where there'd be two players shooting each other at the same time. The one with the faster mouse would win.
@@axiriac I mean just because trying to notice 1khz vs 2khz+ is very difficult doesn't mean you don't benefit. It's still runs faster regardless of your perception.
There's an input delay every time the mouse is in complete still position to a full motion. Once in motion it 1 ms at 1000hz and no one will feel the difference after it's 'in the motion' but that sudden start is what could be the measured case at high DPI low sense scenario.
4k polling is very noticable compared to 1k atleast on kovaaks and ow2, idk how people genuinely struggle to feel a difference
The battery life hit is very noticeable as well innit?
@@LordAngelus if you cant charge your mouse say over night every 3-7 days thats on you
@@Exyile 3 to 7 days? Press X to doubt
@@LordAngelus lamzu thorn 4k can last 5 days
@@Shikitera that's more like an exception, not the general rule
I'd be super interested to know how polling rates and hall effect is improving keyboard technology and quality in general, if that's something youre interested in.
It doesnt matter guys... 25+ years in fps and Ill shit on anyone with any mouse.. as long as you have 1000mhz polly ur good. Just grab the lightest and most comfortable..
Lightweight is king, I don't care what anyone says. My htx mini is the lightest mouse I own at 29g, and it is just insane. Feels like I am moving air
I feel like the footage was plenty noticeable though. The left seemed to consistently be updating at a faster rate than the right. I think if you’re gonna put a number on it, let it be 2k, and then hell why not let it be 4k. At that point why not max it out and let it be 8k
This way you have maxed it out and you never have to be concerned about “but we *could* upgrade it and get that slight advantage in specific circumstances when the input occurs right before the refresh”
I agree with the premise, but bringing up the 150-200ms human reaction time is silly here for the same reason as it's silly for comparing low framerate vs high framerate. Following this logic, the latency difference between 60hz and 144hz is insignificant at "only" 10ms, but we all know these 10ms are a huge deal in competitive play.
As 10ms absolutely IS a big deal, the 8.75% additional advantage of 1ms vs 0.125ms sounds pretty good.
Still, I agree this is very very deep in the diminishing returns territory, and your money is almost definitely better spent on other ways of reducing latency.
That's just very dumb reasoning
The latency advantage of 2/4/8k polling is an order of magnitude greater than even the best human can possibly detect. Monitor refresh is a completely different subject. High polling rate mice are 100% a marketing gimmick.
@@shadynas7y Monitor refresh isn't only about latency, sure, but it ultimately contributes to it in a very similar way.
I play at high sens, and I've developed hand-eye coordination to 'refocus' my eyes on the image immediately after doing big flicks (both in combat and just scanning the environment), and I can tell when I'm running at 250fps instead of 400 (1.5ms difference), because I can detect residual motion on the screen after doing the flick, motion resulting from worse latency.
Hand-eye coordination timings can be developed to a very fine degree indeed, and though I can't quite claim to be there myself, I could believe that some players would indeed notice the
👑 shape is 👑
Oddly enough, I feel a slight difference between 1k and 2k Hz on the desktop, but in-game, not at all, but then again, I don't think that's the polling rate causing that. The highest polling rate I would ever go is 2000, because (1), it's a higher number so I like it (2), it barely affects the battery life compared to 1k Hz, and (3) it doesn't mess with my CPU and most older games can handle 2k fine. Unfortunately, a lot of games (Apex, PUBG, some indie games, and older fps games) have problems with higher polling rate. In Apex, the game will randomly lower your sensitivity for about a second, which has caused some really akward gunfights. PUBG has microstutters by default, and they seem to get worse on 2000 Hz, and certain indie games that run on the unity engine (Valheim, Lethal company, Phasmophobia) do not handle anything above 2000 Hz well, heck, even 2000 Hz has a few issues.
But as always, if it's a gimmick that makes you feel like you play better, then I don't see why not, but otherwise, I wouldn't bother with higher polling rates.
Yup 100%. I have a finalmouse ULX and I'm way more excited about their between polling technology (which is only available at 1000hrz polling) than the 8000 hrz. Anything over 1000 is just diminishing or even negative returns. Honestly I think even the between polling tech is not needed, I just thought it was neat and I like the theory behind the finalmouse business model (even if I don't like the execution).
whats behind tech?
@@hatty101 I'm going to guess that you're asking what the technology I'm talking about actually is. When the ULX is polling at 1000hrz, if you click the a button the mouse will ignore the polling rate and send a poll immediately.
This gives the ULX one of the fastest click response times in the industry without being too harsh on battery or your CPU.
@@thewarmwind6171 my razer 8khz have the world fastest click response time afaik, it regersiter a click at 8000hz even if u set it to 1000hz from the app.
With the speed you were moving the mouse there, it was likely not sending data at even close to 8000hz. Probably more like 500hz.
You only truly reach higher polling rate figures on very fast swipes, with at least 1600 DPI. Can check this with MouseTester.
However, I agree with the minuscule benefit. I tend to use my mice at either 1000hz or 2000hz, as most games are completely fine with the latter and the battery drain isn't unmanageable.
I asked a company about this, they said it doesn't matter because at 8khz, it's always responding at 0.125ms. Also it only seems slow because it's filmed at 1000fps and slowed down in post.
@@RocketJumpNinja It does marginally matter, because motion latency is its own thing. The difference is still absolutely tiny, in both Techpowerup and RTINGS testing results.
Some mice at 1k have better motion latency than others at 8k. It honestly comes down to sensor implementation more than "number go bigger." A bad implementation of motion sync would legitimately affect latency more than polling rate, at a "staggering" ~1ms.
I like having the best tech on mice, but shape and feel is significantly more important. Preferably all of these things, which is how I feel about my Scyrox V8. Incredible mouse.
As a controller player I can feel a difference of 4 ms of gpu render time on a 240hz monitor.
I also don't feel any difference when I'm not warmed up.
But I think I will never distenguish a difference of a fraction of a ms
Why would 1600 or 3200 would be the sweet spot?
input latency is quite a bit better on 1600/3200 over 400 or 800. There are diminishing returns after 3200 so not needed to go higher
Stair effect on low dpi, higher latency, pixel skipping... I use 3200 and drop in game sense, 1600 seems fine too as it's a multiple. It used to be you wanted the mice native dpi because they interpolated past that (hence all the fake 10s of thousands dpi claims back then) but not anymore tho. I'd say finding a sensor without jitter and a shape you like is key. 8000hz is fine but you'll only notice a little if you're twitchy with a mouse. It's not going to make you play or use a mouse better if you don't already have good control and reflex.
I beleave another argument on this is that a lot of sensors really are 1600 or 3200 dpi (native), the 12000 and higher dpi's were/are mostly interpolated. Like some kind of upscaling, fake shit, because of 'artifacts' / 'faults' by that. Not sure if that the case on (more) recent mice and insane dpi's..
@@dedeath That is not true, that believe is false, you just need to move the mouse less to detect the movement, that doesn't mean it has lower latency. I have pointed out that in battle(nonsense)'s video, but he deleted my comment
Its a good feature for fps games if u playing on pro lvl, but still no need cause u can't even compare 1k 4k and 8k on 540hz screen using slow motion camera, maybe it feels better and can cause better performance but still not a gamechanger
1000hz. If you have a very high refresh rate monitor, 360hz plus, I could just about accept a minor discussion about 2K polling. Basically, you're saying everything I have been screaming at Bordzy and various other content creators about for years. It's COMPLETE BOLLARDS and NOBODY, NOBODY will do a double blind a/b between 1k and 4k - thank you so much for this video. I respect You and Optimum. And that reaction test along with all the other links in the chain has been in my mind for years about this polling rate GARBAGE. The content creators by not calling this crap out infuriate me becuase kids are wasting their money.
Glad to help! Yeah every time I see 8k I'm like "Ok, anything actually interesting about this mouse?". Always been anti-marketing with this channel, so figured it was time to address it properly because I'm seeing way too many people say things like "I'm not buying a mouse unless it's 8k".
boardzy really ticked me off when he set about telling everyone that 4k polling was better than 1k. It's unlikely he understands that we're talking about the difference between 0.00025 seconds and 0.001 seconds. Even if the difference is perceived in a blind test (unlikely, and has never been demonstrated), you will not increase your aiming percentages at all
@@BOZ_11 Yes, I can quote him. regarding 4K "you need to get your eyes checked" - he lost me after that I can tell you... Where's that double blind test BOARDZY? I've ridden him pretty hard since that day I can tell you.... I have nothing against what he does he needs something to talk about on his channel but when it comes at the cost of BSing kids with paper specs to make money, well, I've busted his balls since. He probably thinks I'm a nutter ;P These are BASIC 5 BUTTON MICE which 'work'....They do what they're supposed to do. These paper specs are to drive up the price, period. A lot of other manufacturers are showing just how much these mice are really worth... £50 for the latest and greatest tech. £150 mice are just a RIP OFF (I say just as I'm in Valorant TDM using my Keris 2 :/ - hey, I like the shape and weight ;D )
shape is king you are on point there
It's like monitor refresh rates over 240Hz, you are in the diminishing returns region and they diminish very very quickly.
There seems to be a noticeable upgrade from 240 to 480 oled or 540 tn, the problem is that theres 2 games that can reach that and you really need a good pc to do it, the amount of investment is really not worth it
For me anything past 144 is just a what for.
@@Tardenglobe2346 That's actually insane, going from 144hz to even 360hz oled is significant enough to warrant buying, just on motion clarity alone.
@@JagsP95 What's insane is paying a high price for not much of a difference.
@Tardenglobe2346 there is a huge difference. 1440 to 360 is just as big of a difference as 60 to 144.
I can tell the difference between 1k and 4k on a 360hz display. Now, I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other but I can tell a difference if I squeeze the mouse making my hand shake really fast which translates to a specific movement of the cursor. I've done this in a blind test where my brother changed the setting without me knowing. This is with a Superlight 2 with the 4k firmware. I would still be happy just using 1k but I can tell the difference.
So you have a test that can figure it out, would you know in game with regular use? And I'll give that test a try, what movement should be I looking for? Thanks!
@@RocketJumpNinja I can probably not see it ingame or during any practical use and my explanation is most likley not very useful or clear. But I simply found a perceivable difference in how the cursor appeared to move on the desktop while "flexing" my hand in a way that made the mouse and thus the cursor vibrate very fast. Doing this I could "feel" a difference between the two leading me to be able to guess correctly every time.
Again tho, I think it needs to be stressed that this was me with my setup. If you sat me down at a random PC with a random mouse I might not be able to tell at all. As previously mentioned I'm using a 360hz monitor with normal overdrive and a superlight 2 @ 4k polling rate and 1600 dpi. 6/11 win sens with no accel.
This is very much not scientifically whatsoever but I thought I was worth a mention.
EDIT: This perceived difference might not be a reduction in noticable input delay or anything like that but rather just increased variance in the polling itself. As you probably already know we rarely reach the full 4k at 1600dpi since it requires us to move the mouse really really fast unless we multiply the sens inside whatever game we play. So what I perceive might be a reduction in consistency. A consistency found in 1k polling since we actually reach the 1k cap more often. Again, this is all speculation since I have not used any software capable to map this in any readable way.
@@kruger7796 When you say you can notice it while moving the cursor in desktop, did you disable the Windows' Enhance pointer precision? That setting actually enables mouse acceleration and is on by default on Windows. There are differences from 125Hz to 8KHz if there is mouse acceleration. However, using raw input (disable mouse acceleration) and I cannot notice any difference and I have a 240Hz monitor. Some games even disable mouse acceleration by default but some don't.
@@clarkclone Yes. As I mentioned in the edit I disable mouse accel and keep the speed at 6/11. I only tested 1k and 4k on a 360hz monitor. Again tho, it might not be a reduction in input lag or anything like that but merely the difference in the available polling span. It is a lot easier to cap out 1k hz at 1600dpi than it is to cap out 4k hz.
There is a noticable difference but weather it is a positive or negative one is up for debate. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that 4k hz feels "better" than 1k hz. Just that it is a noticable difference.
Man honestly to me anything beyond 1000hz is a gimmick.
You can definitely tell the difference between 500hz and 1000 hz as the 1000hz is quite aggressive to response while the 500hz is a lot smoother, which makes it easier to track a static target while you are in motion
So I did a test with 400 dpi and 8000hz (finalmouse) and the feel is both smooth and responsive. It's worth giving it a try =)
The eye can only see 60Hz polling
holy based
40,000 DPI is objectively better /s
hope thats a joke
human eye and brain is not polling based
@@geeman_tvYou’re nee to memes?
If you look at the video from MS, "Applied Sciences Group: High Performance Touch", it does a good job of showing why latency matters. If we can't see the difference in game, I think the question because what's going that it's not observable. Is there a bottle neck? Is the test flawed, and unable to show the difference? Something else?
When people optimize their computer for 8k gaming. They try to reduce system latency in general. The thing is, those optimization also work for 1k gaming.
most people cant even tell the difference from 500 to 1000
100% true.
It's not about feeling the difference, performance is still measurable, and the gains stack. 1ms there, another 2ms there, another 1ms here, and you have 4ms which a lot of people don't realise they can feel (try it yourself in Latency Split test by Aperture Grille).
Using VRR everyone can see the difference trust me.
I use 500hz by choice lol.
@@BOZ_11 mmm I don’t think so. Depends on your configuration/setup. If you have 240hz with VRR (gsync or freesync), turn on VRR (also, fps below refresh, or reflex on), setup timer resolution on 0.5 ms, disable dynamic tick on bcdedit, tweak bios to disable any form of energy saving, than try your mouse with 500-1000-2000 and came back here to modify your comment, pls don’t share misinformation on internet.
if we get over the added accuracy of 8k polling rate the most important thing for 8k is lowering the input lag which is most important thing if you play high skill level competitive games. for a casual dude even 250 hrz is ok
i think the high dpi advert atleast imo shows the sensor is good and sensitive , the high dpi is just product of the good sensor
That lightning example was pretty damn good.
i have a 360Hz QD OLED and play FPS games for over two decades now.
i can feel a tiny difference when i move the mouse around on the desktop between 1000 and 8000Hz. but there is even on the highest end displays at over 500 FPS literally no difference at all... except of a lot of games breaking at 8KHz like cyberpunk.
great video i agree with nearly everything you said as long as a mouse is as accurate as it can be under 5k dpi and fits your grip style/has buttons that you need you're good. some games need a million buttons on the side where as most games you will get along fine with 2 i hate when people argue about how high the dpi goes on their mouse mine goes to 12k and i dont think its ever been over 2000 lol
I have been sticking with 2K polling rate even though firmware updates came out for my mouse to support 4K and now 8K. At 2K I have no issues in games and battery life is great.
I did get it correct that the left was 8k. Case closed 8k is worth it. On the serious note, if you have a 480hz 1000$ monitor, may as well get a 2000 or 4000hz mouse just to have it, and perhaps placebo yourself.
To my mind, Xtrfy mz1 will be forever the best mouse. I am very glad to use this incredible mouse. This mouse became an asset to me, thank you Rocket Jump Ninja for your design
Not like forever best, but it always will be in my heart
Glad you like it! Yeah it'll always be special, my first design and all, but I'm working on a new design that I think can beat it... so we will see!
Superfluous or not, I want the machine running as fast and smooth as it can. It is often the case that a high specification, regardless of whether you use it to its potential, denotes superior quality standards. By all means purchase what you think will realistically provide value. I just want for the technology to progress towards more fluid inputs and faster rendering.
But as shown, you're more likely to get stutters, lower battery and other issues by pushing the equipment to that extent... this is one of those cases where less can be more overall. Gotta find the balance point for best performance in this case.
@RocketJumpNinja The squeaky wheel gets the grease. When an increased standard causes a different limit to be revealed, that just points to the next thing needing improvement. I know you are focused on there here and now, and I get that, but in the long term there is no reason we shouldn't progress the technology to its logical extreme.
I currently don't experience those issues you describe. My FPS of choice is older as well, so I guess I am exceptionally lucky. If I do find myself having issues, I can always dial it back. I don't demand high polling rates, I would just rather have them where possible.
It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. There is no need to criticize a 'top mouse,' as you term it, for being over provisioned. The price of what is perceived to be the best tool for the job will invariably be extortionate, and this isn't directly correlated to the amount of spend on its technological spec. It wasn't long ago that far worse products than what we have today demanded premium prices. I expect that any product that wishes to take the top place over the incumbent would have an easier time implementing at least an equivalent specification than it would campaigning for consumers to evolve their views on what is necessary. I say let them spend some of that premium they demand on making it objectively better.
@@Electric_Bill As long as they give us cheaper alternatives with the same shapes (and new ones), then sure! I'm not against tech moving forward, I just want the best mice possible... according to that balance I was talking about. The sensor upgrades for wireless to allow for long battery life have been great, but regular functionality was basically flawless even back with the 3360, so companies spending obscene amounts of money on developing new sensors is a waste of money that ends up being put on the consumer. If they want to keep pushing and funding that the money they get from the extreme mice they release, fair enough, but we gotta do something about these costs for a while, so that'll be the focus. Inflation is hitting, so how can we lower cost? One way is not pushing to these (I would deem unnecessary) tech improvements. Squeaky wheels get the grease, yup, so this is what's going to squeak for a while. Then we'll move onto the next squeak. Nothing I'm saying has to be forever, maybe 8k will be good some day, but it's just not needed yet so advertising it like it's a big advantage is just... yeah marketing.
Just saw a Pulsar X2H and 8K Hz Polling Rate adaptor for $40 so this video couldn't have come at a more perfect time
EVGA X17's have dual lift off sensors (this IS nice), table tuning (also VERY nice) AND an 8k pixart sensor... for 17-20 bucks on amazon.
currently 15 dollars actually lol. Its a very nice mouse
I have a an OP1 8k (wired) and I've tried polling rates above 1k, but at least with my setup and the games I play I felt it was worse overall because of the stuttering issues I saw in-game. Maybe in the future if/when this is reduced so that 8k has little to no impact on frametimes, maybe then I'll be able to decide if I notice an improvement from 8k; but for now, I'll be sticking to 1k polling as it's good enough for me and the biggest thing holding me back (other than my own skill ofc) is fps, frametimes, and stability. Also while I would recommend the op1 8k as it's a great value gaming mouse I personally would probably prefer a mouse with similar weight and a shape that better suits my hand that's wireless and sacrifice the 8k potential as I don't even use it.
Well said man, you nailed it 110%!
Been preaching the same thing for years as well! 👊
Nice, the more people we can get to see through marketing, the more the companies will have to focus on things that actually matter... like consistency, weight, buttons and of course, shape!
i use a deathadder v3 pro i feel 4sure the 8k hz, use 800 dpi, just do a 180, you will see the diff.
if i try to use 4k hz i cant even turn arround the sameway, so the sensivity changes thats a fact. i use .89 sens, with 8k i can react just fine with enimies flanking, but with 4k the sensivity it comes short, for what i used 8k for my advantage is using a lower sens with a higher capacity to react and reach the flanks
Absolutely on-point!
Everything you say is spot on.
honesty is doesn't matter what type of hardware you have is important knowledge and skills
Nah lol; if I put shroud on a trackball mouse and a cheap keyboard; hes not going to play very well.
I find that the thing that matters the most is Shape, Click placement, Pretravel. These factors influence the latency way more then hz on a mouse.
Since the body will always limit you more then the Gear.
It´s like riding a bike. Having a aluminium road bike that is fittet well will always be better then having a badly fittet Carbone one.
Doesn´t matter if a crank length of 165 makes your rotation speed slightly faster and hence gives you 5 more watts if your position is so ass that you lose 150 watts.
Same for 8k. If everything is optimized and you want to min max absolutely go for 2-8k but saying it does make a significant difference is just bs.
8khz obviously its not necessary, but the persons like me with 540hz monitor and a really good mouse like the sword x, we can feel the difference easier. But its a side thing , the really important things u have to check is
-The shape
-Your grip(and Hand size)
-budget
- Qc(mouse)
when you have all that sorted out, you can see if you have the necessary hardware to use 8khz on the mouse.
I was testing this on the Asus 540hz monitor mentioned... so maybe you're way more sensitive to it than I am or had different settings, but from what I could tell, the higher hz monitor didn't seem to help.
Thank you for mentioning shape. I've been looking for a MM520 replacement for ages now and all we are getting is viper / GPro wireless clones.
This is what I've been saying since higher polling rates came out. Many people don't seem to understand just how fast 1ms is. The best way to tell if a higher polling rate is really making a difference is in a click reaction test. If you're consistently faster with 8k, sure, go for it. But you should only be less than a millisecond difference lol. If you're really looking to get smoother and more precise mouse inputs, raise your DPI a little and lower in game sens. That's raising the sensors' resolution, giving you finer control in game, actually a tangible difference that you can achieve on any mouse. I'm still loving how far gaming peripherals have come, especially wireless mice, but I'd never buy or recommend one on its polling rate.
We could use higher DPIs, but games have a sensitivity slider and don't even support higher numbers, realistically. Even on brand new games, many barely support 1600, with you needing to have the slider down at 2.25 or whatever
Idk if you know this but w11 runs alot better with high polling rate mice. The scheduler was not prioritizing the mouse at all in pre 23h2 w11 or still not in w10. That being said it def differs from mouse to mouse, 2k seems to be the sweet spot. I have yet to use a 8k wireless mouse that did not feel like crap with tons of dropped inputs, the only time i ever felt like it being better was the viper 8k on halo infinite. I could be wrong but i would imagine higher polling rate helping with accuracy with large and fast movements say only a low sens player or 50cm360 or more. I dont have the tools to test to see where it would be an issue and if it would ever be an issue.
I would love to see someone make videos 3D printing and testing viewer submitted mouse shapes. Basically a mouse version of Major Hardware's Fan Showdown series.
If talking about just mice. Comfort is #1, this is someone who has a op1 8k. I run at 4k hz pulling rate on my 480hz monitor. 8k was too inconsistent
I recently got the Lamzu mini 4k and I was able to test a polling rate at 4000 Hz for the first time.
On the one hand, the mouse battery drained very quickly and on the other, the cursor moved too quickly.
I found that I aimed better with a little mouse latency. The latency makes the cursor drag after your mouse movement and I "feel" my aim better.
Moreover, I can see during the comparison, the right cursor dragging after the mouse has moved.
However, I think that a polling rate at 2000 Hz can improve my performance during tracking.
imo as long as the game can run 8k i use 8k when you did the test i thought the left looked smoother than the right and the left was 8k, so i don't think its a gimmick or a need as of right now, its just nice to have
This is still so much more diplomatic of a way to put it than boardzy would’ve lol 😆
I'll be honest with you I feel like I can notice 8k when i switch to it but one time i turned it down to 1k to play a story game and forgot to turn it back up and only realised after i finished a ranked game lol
I feel most light weight mouse, tends to have some weak spots, we need better quality control and overall rigid construction
I say it's more to do with people that don't understand how things work and buy into instant hype on something new with big numbers. More important is good monitor at high end Hz first before mouse polling increase becomes needed. To add, some focusing on high polling rate while having 240Hz at best or a game that doesn't go higher.
To make a use use and have a need for higher polling rate, you first need much faster monitors, game running at very high fps then you follow up with needed increase in polling rate. As it's ideal to have polling be say near 10x over monitors refresh rate. As of now 8KHz is not needed, more like good to have if implemented properly for future. So once 1000Hz OLED and competitive fast fps games that can run so with new good engine (hopefully new Quake), then it will be time.
Same thing with CPI I'm on 1600 for a long time now and if I'd switch to 4K res I'd bump it to 3200 also. Turning fast you're traveling more pixels. So why have pixel skip or missed intervals in between lower polling on fast flicks where enemy may be between two polling intervals. Definitely no need to be too hyper focused on pinnacle stuff, but fun for peak performance in future.
I love following monitor tech and stuff and finally OLEDs now. Good to read Blur Busters on these things, fun stuff. Some of the topics discussed for example:
forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9982&p=80545
Newer Sensors tend to have less drift than older sensors. 2 mice with similar shape, your probably better off with the mouse with the new sensor. If your trying to use above 800 on an older sensor, it usually has significantly higher drift at the higher DPS. Similarly some of the new sensors are trash at 400, and get better as you go up to a certain point. But then start to decline at some DPI point. People playing at 400 DPI on a super old mice, can have a ton more drift then a recent sensor at 400 DPI.