Well now James, The War Games is my very first memory of Doctor Who, as it was originally aired, here in the UK in 1969 - I've been a Doctor Who fan for rather a long time now... Your subject here is a good one (and it never gets old debating these things), you're knowledgeable, and you present your supporting evidences well and clearly. However... Actually, no - There is no however, because you're quite right; the waters have been muddied so much over the years with this writer stating this, and that producer saying that, so much so that there is no definitive answer. My own "head canon" is that the Master and the War Chief were certainly contemporaries but not the same person. Good luck with your Channel, it's coming along nicely! LLaP 🖖🙂
@its.james.a A long, long, long time before you were born, James! But it is refreshing, and good to hear, that there are some in the latest generation with an appreciation of what has gone before... "It's reassuring to know that my future is in safe hands!". 😆
There is a way to reconcile The War Chief being The Master, while not being the same character. In fact, it even allows for The War Chief to be The Master's subordinate. During the Fourth Doctor's regeneration, he encounters the mysterious Watcher during Logopolis, who later becomes the Fifth Doctor. However, The Watcher acts independently and seemingly not as the Fifth Doctor prior to the Fourth Doctor's regeneration. Then there is the the case of K'anpo Rimpoche and Cho-Je in Planet of the Spiders. Cho-Je is a projection and attendant of K'anpo and later becomes his regeneration. The Master performs a similar trick, by using Nyssa's father as a host to facilitate his regeneration. Perhaps The Master created the War Chief as an operative that he later incarnated into? Just a bunch of supposition on my part. But I always thought the way K'anpo regenerated was really novel and wondered why it never happened quite that way again.
Honestly, I think it’s fine. The people making these are Whovains themselves, and I understand why they thought it was cool to make the connection. If you don’t like it, that’s fine too, we still have the original story to watch.
In my head cannon there was a period of chaos on Gallifrey following the events described in The Brain of Morbius and it was during this period all of the renegage Time Lords left, each convinced by Morbius that the Time Lords should play a greater role in the universe and each with some different ideas on how to do it. The Monk, The Rani and The Master all started out like The Doctor all took different paths as they learned from their experiences.
I've never liked the idea of the War Chief being the Master. It takes everything away from the War Chief while adding nothing to the Master, making the universe that little bit smaller.
@ That's completely irrelevant, the Curator IS the Doctor from the future, with a different name, like the Valeyard for instance. Saying the War Chief is the Master is more on the lines of saying The Rani is Morbius, they're two completely different characters.
I know David A McIntee was apart of the Group I had in the late 1990s and I'm got mention in 1st book White Darkness then David gave me a character in Dark Parth though to be honest I never read it got given as present from David as well other books as David use to tell us the plot of the book and was pointless at the time.. (forget who I was now)was shocked to seen in a you tube video that he past away just 3 weeks before his 56th birthday not seen David in a while since going our separate ways he got married and finally I too move on nice little mention of his books and contributions to it in the Group I was the Doctor David was referred to as the Master. Rest in peace my old friend 😢 .
I think it's a fun headcanon, nothing more. I personally choose to believe this as, watching the show only, it kinda felt fitting for them to be the same character, specially since the War Chief is never seen again, he's not even judged by the Time Lords even tough they manage to catch the doctor right there with little difficulty so saying "The War Chief just goes to become The Master" puts an easy solution for why he never reapears (If we operate on "only what happens in the show is fully canon" "only the original airing is canon" you can kinda make the case that The War Chief just kind of... Dies? It may be kind of lame but it may as well be the case if you just ignore anything not show related lol) Maybe is cause I'm a new viewer and i was already expecting the master to show up at some point, but when i watched The War Games for the first time and saw The Doctor talking to The War Chief i was already like "Oh shit, is this the master?" and seeing him later on his first real appearance as The Master i kind of made the connection of "Oh, he's wearing a very similar outfit as The War Chief and a main gimmick here is mind control... Yeah, same guy" Now, at least i'm not one of those people who think The Monk is an earlier regeneration of The Master, those are just delusional.
The ending of the original War Games is my first clear Who memory (I was seven) so I had misgivings about changes to it, though I suppose incorporating a regeneration was inevitable, and I thought done well; and I believe it does still leave space for Series 6B. The use of pictures of some of the modern Doctors though was just silly, especially in their full Doctor costumes! Much better would have been to use actors who were once mooted for rhe role, but never made it, like Ken Campbell (the best Doctor that never was), Brian Blessed, Michael Crawford...That would have been a neat joke. On the whole, I thought the production was excellent, a huge improvement on last year's Daleks effort. We can all disagee on how it was edited, but having rewatched the original about a year ago, I have no doubt at all that an edit was necessary. As for the Master question, it's the fact that Dicks was involved in the creation of both characters and chose not to explicitly link them that persuades me it's a misstep. My novelisation arrived from eBay yesterday, and I believe Hulke didn't link the two characters, even though the Master had been around for several years at the time he wrote the book. It's a short novel, so I'll be interested to see how he condensed the story. Anyway, a great analysis, and I'll drop a link to your video at the end of my written review, which should be up in a few day's time, if you don't mind. One thing I will stress though, is that I'm wary of the 'original still exists' arguments. In the digital age, 'originals' can be 'disappeared' or altered at will. My advice is, collect and retain physical media at all costs. Unless you can pick it up, hold it, smell it, play (or read) it when you choose, you don't own it. The best of luck with the channel. Your subscriber list has grown consuderably since your last video, and I hope that encourages you to continue.
Great to hear from you again Anthony! Given the history between Troughton and Pertwee, choosing Jon as one of the pictures would have been a wonderful touch for me (I would have cut to him for the "that won't do at all" bit personally). The fact they just used basic publicity shots of the Doctors was laughable. Whilst I am not generally a fan of editing old stories, I'm glad the colourisation gave the BBC an opportunity to integrate the newly recovered film negs. It also (you would assume) has given more time for Space Pirates to be animated (or even found) before the Season 6 Collection box set. I, too, am a believer in physical media, and will likely source The War Games in colour at some point. Once again, I'm really looking forward to your article, and have no problems with you dropping a link in there :) If you want, when you finish the novelisation, you could read a review I actually posted for it nearly two years ago on The Time Scales: thetimescales.com/Story/story.php?audioid=4245 -
maybe the master and war chief are not the same,but are actually related more than it' s believed at first sight some way ,maybe war chief is going to be confirmed to be different in the future seasons or series,i hope one day they(Russell and production team),can confirm the war chief and the master being separate like in big finish audios ,or maybe there is no canon in" Magnus " and "koschei" being separated time lords
Here's the thing we can't undo with time travel when it comes to figures in the Whoinverse like Gallifrians they are a race with complex history and pretty odd origins, a phrase often said the wrong way around. When you really think about time with a tardis, the laws of rule say don't cross your own timelines. But with a darker meaning, this doesn't mean anything to The Monk or Master or Rani. Although they break rules, sometimes they pay for it in the end and beginning. War Chief or possibly someone with a checked origin even related to the Master or isn't there plan and simple only the wrong way round. Master first, and he became the War Cheif, but had a different face because he was from a different timeline, probably from the future. The Master often appears with different looks. To the regeneration of the first appearance of the Master well, was it a total regeneration process or the mask of Chief dissolving and the face of The Master underneath that mask? On another plane, the War Chief might be from Division and another Master which could have implications if there's two different versions of Gallifrey that coexist in time and space. Remember with the second doctor and his meeting with his Gallifrians lords they didn't look the same as they do in the future stories, differences between Gallifrians and their countparts isn't that much different but if we watch the War Games and then remember who they are similar to Division? When you rewatch the way they treat their fellow time lord the doctor, it seems hasher than it should have been why, was they actually who they should be? One final question: Where did the game take place? Gallifrey or a place on a planet where it is at war a planet? SCARO?
on the topic of name it is not clar from the war games if War Chieff is a regular title or a temporary one for working with the War Lords. if it is a temporary one then there is room for him to be called the master befor the War Games.
I know Terrance Dicks seemed to flip-flop on whether they were the same character...however when reading Timewyrm: Exodus there's a lot of internal monologues from the Seventh Doctor. If the War Chief was the Master, the Seventh Doctor would have mentioned it internally. Instead, he realises that it's the War Chief and doesn't think "Hey, here's a version of the Master who hasn't met my younger selves yet"
I definitely sit on the traditional side of things. The War Chief is the War Chief, and The Master is The Master. The War Chief is a misguided and dubiously amoral character. The Master is a psychopath! And I simply cannot see The Master being subservient to the War Lord for any length of time. And then the War Chief gets killed during the story. I know that particular point may be moot as we've seen The Master "die" who knows how many times over the years as well! And more importantly, Terrance Dicks was asked this very question and as co-writer of The War Games and co-creator of the character of The Master he refuted it completely saying they were two different people. Mr Dicks has spoken. Game over as far as I'm concerned. But if fans enjoy this theory and it works for them, then that's cool as well. That's Dr Who.
The master did not exist until Delgado, so to see the present show runners mess with the original show in this manner is disrespectful to everyone involved in the original show, so thank goodness i ditched modren Who so i never have to see their needless vandelisum of the original show.
Don't forget that Terrance Dicks who co-created both characters made it very clear in interviews that they were NOT the same person. This is just Collinson and RTD2 bringing down classic Dr Who to their level. His current iteration is a disaster with the lowest ratings in the show's history. It's been so badly received there's no 3rd season next year 2026 and there's no Christmas Special this year. So to make himself feel better he's not only alienated the majority of fans since his return he's now adding fuel to the fire by butchering classic Who. He's out of control because as he's said in interviews, no one (BBC Bosses) has the courage to criticise him. He has an over inflated ego and can't produce top quality Science fiction Scripts for toffee.
@@eddieday-reilly5144 Wow you really like just making up things huh? This change wasn't done by him. It's the other executives. And the show's ratings have always been going down yet Joy still performed good for the competition even getting top 5 in Disney +. And the contract was for 2 seasons so obviously we aren't getting a Christmas special this year or S16 until they see how S15 does. And you didn't see Wild Blue Yonder? He's still got it.
@eddieday-reilly5144 Wow you really like just making up things huh? This change wasn't done by him. It's the other executives. And the show's ratings have always been going down yet Joy still performed good for the competition even getting top 5 in Disney +. And the contract was for 2 seasons so obviously we aren't getting a Christmas special this year or S16 until they see how S15 does. And you didn't see Wild Blue Yonder? He's still got it.
Yes, the War Chief is the Master because a bunch of sad little fans will say he is and then chief fanboy RTD will retcon it in the latest attempt to undermine and parasitise Classic Who.
No the War Chief is not nor was he ever The Master. Terrance Dicks the CREATOR of the character of both the Master and War Chief made it clear many times that they were desperate characters. This nonsense is just something that's been dreamt up by Collinson and RTD in their bid to rewrite Dr Who in their image. Their 90 minute carnage, The War Games in Colour (the colour was superb) is a prime example of their hatred for the World's longest running Sci-Fi series....or is it to intentionally alienate the fan base? The editing was diabolical. More plot holes than one can shake a stick at. Ridiculously loud incidental music and a regeneration sequence that was pointless. What is this obsession with tinkering ? RTD just you keep on messing up your own iteration of Dr Who and LEAVE the classic show alone.
It's a theory that pre-dates RTD. The late Craig Hinton - content critic for DWM in the 90s and Doctor Who novel writer always assumed the two characters were one and the same.
Well now James, The War Games is my very first memory of Doctor Who, as it was originally aired, here in the UK in 1969 - I've been a Doctor Who fan for rather a long time now...
Your subject here is a good one (and it never gets old debating these things), you're knowledgeable, and you present your supporting evidences well and clearly. However...
Actually, no - There is no however, because you're quite right; the waters have been muddied so much over the years with this writer stating this, and that producer saying that, so much so that there is no definitive answer.
My own "head canon" is that the Master and the War Chief were certainly contemporaries but not the same person.
Good luck with your Channel, it's coming along nicely! LLaP
🖖🙂
Hi Richard, I really appreciate your comment :)
I must also add that mid-1969 was certainly a good time for first memories of television!
@its.james.a A long, long, long time before you were born, James! But it is refreshing, and good to hear, that there are some in the latest generation with an appreciation of what has gone before... "It's reassuring to know that my future is in safe hands!". 😆
Haha yes, and a good choice of quote.
"You did well, quite well!"
me too, the War Games was my first classic episode. Loved Troughton hadn't heard of his acting at the time. Epic episode.
Couldn't he be a future appearance of the master calling himself the war chief like the curator?
There is a way to reconcile The War Chief being The Master, while not being the same character. In fact, it even allows for The War Chief to be The Master's subordinate.
During the Fourth Doctor's regeneration, he encounters the mysterious Watcher during Logopolis, who later becomes the Fifth Doctor. However, The Watcher acts independently and seemingly not as the Fifth Doctor prior to the Fourth Doctor's regeneration.
Then there is the the case of K'anpo Rimpoche and Cho-Je in Planet of the Spiders. Cho-Je is a projection and attendant of K'anpo and later becomes his regeneration.
The Master performs a similar trick, by using Nyssa's father as a host to facilitate his regeneration. Perhaps The Master created the War Chief as an operative that he later incarnated into?
Just a bunch of supposition on my part. But I always thought the way K'anpo regenerated was really novel and wondered why it never happened quite that way again.
I could see the scheme in THe War Games being something the Master would do, I always felt he and the War Chief were separate characters.
There is a theory that the end of war games the doctor is sent on secret missions (the ruthless Doctor)before regeneration into thrid
Honestly, I think it’s fine. The people making these are Whovains themselves, and I understand why they thought it was cool to make the connection. If you don’t like it, that’s fine too, we still have the original story to watch.
I don’t know about confirming, but my head cannon he was the Master.
Great vid
In my head cannon there was a period of chaos on Gallifrey following the events described in The Brain of Morbius and it was during this period all of the renegage Time Lords left, each convinced by Morbius that the Time Lords should play a greater role in the universe and each with some different ideas on how to do it.
The Monk, The Rani and The Master all started out like The Doctor all took different paths as they learned from their experiences.
They just love doing this , coming up with this idea that the Warchief is the Master
I've never liked the idea of the War Chief being the Master. It takes everything away from the War Chief while adding nothing to the Master, making the universe that little bit smaller.
The toy maker changed the docs History.
@@TravisLee33 Doesn't change my opinion that making them the same character is a shit idea.
@@LaytonMathieson understandable
@@LaytonMathieson We consider the curator the doctor. But I see what you're saying.
@ That's completely irrelevant, the Curator IS the Doctor from the future, with a different name, like the Valeyard for instance. Saying the War Chief is the Master is more on the lines of saying The Rani is Morbius, they're two completely different characters.
I know David A McIntee was apart of the Group I had in the late 1990s and I'm got mention in 1st book White Darkness then David gave me a character in Dark Parth though to be honest I never read it got given as present from David as well other books as David use to tell us the plot of the book and was pointless at the time.. (forget who I was now)was shocked to seen in a you tube video that he past away just 3 weeks before his 56th birthday not seen David in a while since going our separate ways he got married and finally I too move on nice little mention of his books and contributions to it in the Group I was the Doctor David was referred to as the Master. Rest in peace my old friend 😢
.
Hi Derek, so sorry you found out this way. Sending my condolences.
I think it's a fun headcanon, nothing more.
I personally choose to believe this as, watching the show only, it kinda felt fitting for them to be the same character, specially since the War Chief is never seen again, he's not even judged by the Time Lords even tough they manage to catch the doctor right there with little difficulty so saying "The War Chief just goes to become The Master" puts an easy solution for why he never reapears (If we operate on "only what happens in the show is fully canon" "only the original airing is canon" you can kinda make the case that The War Chief just kind of... Dies? It may be kind of lame but it may as well be the case if you just ignore anything not show related lol)
Maybe is cause I'm a new viewer and i was already expecting the master to show up at some point, but when i watched The War Games for the first time and saw The Doctor talking to The War Chief i was already like "Oh shit, is this the master?" and seeing him later on his first real appearance as The Master i kind of made the connection of "Oh, he's wearing a very similar outfit as The War Chief and a main gimmick here is mind control... Yeah, same guy"
Now, at least i'm not one of those people who think The Monk is an earlier regeneration of The Master, those are just delusional.
Really enjoyed your analysis, you earned my sub. I personally like the idea of the War Chief being the Master. It adds to lore. Thanks!
Much appreciated, and refreshing to see some difference of opinion in the comments ;)
The ending of the original War Games is my first clear Who memory (I was seven) so I had misgivings about changes to it, though I suppose incorporating a regeneration was inevitable, and I thought done well; and I believe it does still leave space for Series 6B. The use of pictures of some of the modern Doctors though was just silly, especially in their full Doctor costumes! Much better would have been to use actors who were once mooted for rhe role, but never made it, like Ken Campbell (the best Doctor that never was), Brian Blessed, Michael Crawford...That would have been a neat joke. On the whole, I thought the production was excellent, a huge improvement on last year's Daleks effort. We can all disagee on how it was edited, but having rewatched the original about a year ago, I have no doubt at all that an edit was necessary. As for the Master question, it's the fact that Dicks was involved in the creation of both characters and chose not to explicitly link them that persuades me it's a misstep. My novelisation arrived from eBay yesterday, and I believe Hulke didn't link the two characters, even though the Master had been around for several years at the time he wrote the book. It's a short novel, so I'll be interested to see how he condensed the story. Anyway, a great analysis, and I'll drop a link to your video at the end of my written review, which should be up in a few day's time, if you don't mind. One thing I will stress though, is that I'm wary of the 'original still exists' arguments. In the digital age, 'originals' can be 'disappeared' or altered at will. My advice is, collect and retain physical media at all costs. Unless you can pick it up, hold it, smell it, play (or read) it when you choose, you don't own it. The best of luck with the channel. Your subscriber list has grown consuderably since your last video, and I hope that encourages you to continue.
Great to hear from you again Anthony! Given the history between Troughton and Pertwee, choosing Jon as one of the pictures would have been a wonderful touch for me (I would have cut to him for the "that won't do at all" bit personally). The fact they just used basic publicity shots of the Doctors was laughable.
Whilst I am not generally a fan of editing old stories, I'm glad the colourisation gave the BBC an opportunity to integrate the newly recovered film negs. It also (you would assume) has given more time for Space Pirates to be animated (or even found) before the Season 6 Collection box set.
I, too, am a believer in physical media, and will likely source The War Games in colour at some point.
Once again, I'm really looking forward to your article, and have no problems with you dropping a link in there :)
If you want, when you finish the novelisation, you could read a review I actually posted for it nearly two years ago on The Time Scales: thetimescales.com/Story/story.php?audioid=4245 -
I will do, thank you!
Magnus was the War chief, just as Mortimus was The Meddling Monk.
Isn't that Ray F**king Purchase!?!
maybe the master and war chief are not the same,but are actually related more than it' s believed at first sight some way ,maybe war chief is going to be confirmed to be different in the future seasons or series,i hope one day they(Russell and production team),can confirm the war chief and the master being separate like in big finish audios ,or maybe there is no canon in" Magnus " and "koschei" being separated time lords
Here's the thing we can't undo with time travel when it comes to figures in the Whoinverse like Gallifrians they are a race with complex history and pretty odd origins, a phrase often said the wrong way around. When you really think about time with a tardis, the laws of rule say don't cross your own timelines. But with a darker meaning, this doesn't mean anything to The Monk or Master or Rani. Although they break rules, sometimes they pay for it in the end and beginning. War Chief or possibly someone with a checked origin even related to the Master or isn't there plan and simple only the wrong way round. Master first, and he became the War Cheif, but had a different face because he was from a different timeline, probably from the future. The Master often appears with different looks. To the regeneration of the first appearance of the Master well, was it a total regeneration process or the mask of Chief dissolving and the face of The Master underneath that mask? On another plane, the War Chief might be from Division and another Master which could have implications if there's two different versions of Gallifrey that coexist in time and space. Remember with the second doctor and his meeting with his Gallifrians lords they didn't look the same as they do in the future stories, differences between Gallifrians and their countparts isn't that much different but if we watch the War Games and then remember who they are similar to Division?
When you rewatch the way they treat their fellow time lord the doctor, it seems hasher than it should have been why, was they actually who they should be? One final question: Where did the game take place? Gallifrey or a place on a planet where it is at war a planet? SCARO?
on the topic of name it is not clar from the war games if War Chieff is a regular title or a temporary one for working with the War Lords. if it is a temporary one then there is room for him to be called the master befor the War Games.
I know Terrance Dicks seemed to flip-flop on whether they were the same character...however when reading Timewyrm: Exodus there's a lot of internal monologues from the Seventh Doctor. If the War Chief was the Master, the Seventh Doctor would have mentioned it internally. Instead, he realises that it's the War Chief and doesn't think "Hey, here's a version of the Master who hasn't met my younger selves yet"
Unless the war chief is a future incarnation like the curator...
No he was not the Master.
The War Chief is the War Chief. the Master is the Master. Why waste a good character by combining the two?
The same way the curator is the doctor.
I definitely sit on the traditional side of things.
The War Chief is the War Chief, and The Master is The Master.
The War Chief is a misguided and dubiously amoral character.
The Master is a psychopath!
And I simply cannot see The Master being subservient to the War Lord for any length of time.
And then the War Chief gets killed during the story.
I know that particular point may be moot as we've seen The Master "die" who knows how many times over the years as well!
And more importantly, Terrance Dicks was asked this very question and as co-writer of The War Games and co-creator of the character of The Master he refuted it completely saying they were two different people.
Mr Dicks has spoken. Game over as far as I'm concerned.
But if fans enjoy this theory and it works for them, then that's cool as well.
That's Dr Who.
The master did not exist until Delgado, so to see the present show runners mess with the original show in this manner is disrespectful to everyone involved in the original show, so thank goodness i ditched modren Who so i never have to see their needless vandelisum of the original show.
No. Next question.
No he isn't. It's been contradicted several times. The War Chief was created by Dicks and Hulke before the Master was created by Dicks and Letts.
Don't forget that Terrance Dicks who co-created both characters made it very clear in interviews that they were NOT the same person.
This is just Collinson and RTD2 bringing down classic Dr Who to their level. His current iteration is a disaster with the lowest ratings in the show's history. It's been so badly received there's no 3rd season next year 2026 and there's no Christmas Special this year.
So to make himself feel better he's not only alienated the majority of fans since his return he's now adding fuel to the fire by butchering classic Who.
He's out of control because as he's said in interviews, no one (BBC Bosses) has the courage to criticise him. He has an over inflated ego and can't produce top quality Science fiction Scripts for toffee.
@eddieday-reilly5144 yes, I knew Terrance had said that and I totally agree with all your other points, he's ruined the show!
@@eddieday-reilly5144 Wow you really like just making up things huh? This change wasn't done by him. It's the other executives. And the show's ratings have always been going down yet Joy still performed good for the competition even getting top 5 in Disney +. And the contract was for 2 seasons so obviously we aren't getting a Christmas special this year or S16 until they see how S15 does. And you didn't see Wild Blue Yonder? He's still got it.
@eddieday-reilly5144 Wow you really like just making up things huh? This change wasn't done by him. It's the other executives. And the show's ratings have always been going down yet Joy still performed good for the competition even getting top 5 in Disney +. And the contract was for 2 seasons so obviously we aren't getting a Christmas special this year or S16 until they see how S15 does. And you didn't see Wild Blue Yonder? He's still got it.
NO!
No because it makes no sense of the Master's introduction in Terror of the Autons.
He was not the Master, simple.
No
Never
Yes, the War Chief is the Master because a bunch of sad little fans will say he is and then chief fanboy RTD will retcon it in the latest attempt to undermine and parasitise Classic Who.
No. Next stupid question.
No he wasn't and it's an insult and a disgrace for the BBC to suggest otherwise
Why do you find it so offensive?
The didly assasin?
No the War Chief is not nor was he ever The Master. Terrance Dicks the CREATOR of the character of both the Master and War Chief made it clear many times that they were desperate characters.
This nonsense is just something that's been dreamt up by Collinson and RTD in their bid to rewrite Dr Who in their image. Their 90 minute carnage, The War Games in Colour (the colour was superb) is a prime example of their hatred for the World's longest running Sci-Fi series....or is it to intentionally alienate the fan base? The editing was diabolical. More plot holes than one can shake a stick at. Ridiculously loud incidental music and a regeneration sequence that was pointless. What is this obsession with tinkering ? RTD just you keep on messing up your own iteration of Dr Who and LEAVE the classic show alone.
It's a theory that pre-dates RTD. The late Craig Hinton - content critic for DWM in the 90s and Doctor Who novel writer always assumed the two characters were one and the same.