Guild wars 2 has pvp where everyone has their stats reset natively and all weapons and builds unlocked. You can pick what you want and queue for arena. So there are mmos where pvp is balanced if you want. Just play what you preffer
@@xXGranaXx true, but still on the upper end compared to most of other games pvp. Having meta is just a natural order of things. I havent played gw2 in a long time since i grew out of it but when i was playing there were also constant rebalances and changes to classes so the metas did change quite regulary.
@@xXGranaXx There are not really that much diversity in GW2 builds as you like them to be effective as well. Only 1-3 builds per profession works well and as such is considered viable options. This is one of the reasons true GW1 fans dislikes GW2, the lack of diversity while still having viable build options. Now with that said, there are a few things they introduced in GW2 that I like personally, but the changes didn't have to be at the price of build diversity.
@TheSpectacularRevenant kind of? FF14 just auto sets stats and stuff based on job, but there’s a lot more classes leading to a lot of diversity (since your job is your “build” effectively).
I think Guild wars 1 was better for pvp as there were a lot more options for builds and so you had quite a few builds that were all for different playstyles/scenarios.
And when the game is "dying out" and people start blame other players for being bad and not want to be their punching ball any longer. It come to full circle. In most pvp games I played of such nature, very few players of equal level want to fight each other. They look for a weaker targets to beat up to the tune of "delicious salty tears"...
Indeed. Josh ignores this. Most Skilled players or Overgeared players ALWAYS seek weaker opponents to beat for the Salty Tear rewards. Although in Aion we had better incentives to go after strong opponents because their higher ranks gave better rewards while weaker players were even ignored sometimes. To save skills. It's just different advantages when it comes to pvp. Some get skilled first, others get geared first. to remove such progression in an mmo is just stupid. It's just fortnite with better graphics.
@@joshanonline Yes, Aion was a good example how pvp system in mmorpgs can work, unfortunately can't say the same for pvp mechanism itself, chasing a target while flying was always a nightmare, not to mention between other things. Lineage 2 also had a nice system (not perfect by all means, but...), I've never found any other mmorpg with the same pvp/pve quality lvl.
@@joshanonline I totally understand that for games like NW, more open world games. It probably is so much different for different kinds of MMOs. But I think there is bit of an issue when you have, like in wow, gear tide to ranked games, where the gear you and your opponent has matters a lot. That's why a lot of people decide to get boosted. The issue is made even worse if you decide to join to season later on, which even further deters people from taking part in it. You shouldn't have to have the skill of a 2100+ rating player to get 1800 rating gear.
The best pvp game I have played and the only one that got me addicted is dragon nest. Gear has no effect only skill. Like battlefield, u got blue and red team with 200 ticket on both side. U die, u respawn and the ticket got lesser. What fascinate me the most is even if u are a noob, your well place aoe or crowd control could turn the tide of battle. When one side lost, the reward is distributed and the map changed. Because its ongoing, u will lost track of time. On the other hand, the worst pvp MMO I have played is Neverwinter online. Largely because they incorporate gear power in pvp. New player just dont stand a chance. U either need to spend a huge sum of money or spend month and years of PVE grind to get to that BIS state to compete or at certain gear level to stand a chance. In other word, they want u to gear up before u talk about skill. That just turn me off quickly. I think gearing up and min maxing should be in PVE not PVP.
Skill based pvp that’s GW2, everyone gets max level weapons and stats. Power level is non existent skill is the only thing but if you do want to be unbalanced go WvW.
More games should definitely have a GW2 arena system even if they're going to let gear determine the winner in the open world. Which GW2 does technically there just isn't a big gear grind gap.
Absolutely. That's why that game does it well. You have your balanced competitive pvp arena where skill and teamwork are most rewarded. You could go in with a pve character, but people play with maxed out pvp characters that automatically get maximum power. Then you ALSO have a free for all where you are rewarded for the power you earned. This still gives rewards to lower level players who can get things done and beat npcs, and bringing in tons of noobs on your side (since they get boosted up to be able to do something at least) is good because it still gives your group a numbers advantage regardless of them being individually weaker. There should be a supported way to easily get balanced skilled honorable duels and fights, and then there should be the opportunity for unfair fights sometimes too.
Thats why I'm downloading it now and won't step into wow (main interest is pvp there) unless they figure out a way to have proper scaling in that game.
@@Fubasta GW2 is fun for structured PVP and maybe even WvW, but pve (read raiding) is basically all melee, which is something that bothers me as an elementalist (mage) I'm forced to stand in melee :D
This type of game design inherently gives a games pvp a shelf life. Soon as a core group of the player base grinds to the top, it becomes increasingly unattractive to new players. The competition drys up or becomes stale and that’s the end of the game.
World PvP should be gear based free for all catering to the one’s who enjoy that aspect etc Rating PvP (arena, ranked) should be all skill based, everyone gets set to equal gear
In the end, a videogame can contain everything the developers want. No rule deny the ability of an MMO to have a place where the players can stomp others with raw gear power and also have a system the players can use to organize skill based pvp with perfect scaling and balance.
This is exactly what worries me about AoC, since it is based more on conflict between people and more pvp. I don't know how balanced it is going to feel. The cycle repeats itself, MMOs are based on end game content because if you don't have end game gear you are at a massive disadvantage compared to everyone that has it. If I could spend my life playing the game then I would be fine for the system but sadly that is not possible.
@@henrythegreatamerican8136 That's the same thing as instanced, if you separate pve from pvp (open world or not) and all stats, levels are brought to a standard then all the lvl up and equips has been all for nothing and the game feels disingenuous, no one wants to waste time lvling up a character or farming up a gear and then brought down (or up) every time you want to do pvp and knowing that doesn't count for anything.
I come from Dark Age of Camelot, i am finde with some imbalance - if you still have the feel to be able to accomplish something against specific classes. I am fine if PVP cant be balanced for 100%.
Asmongold: "PVP should be unbalanced because of Power" Also Asmon: "Pvp get's boring because you own everyone" And Also Asmon: "Why is people leaving the game?"
Don't want to get wooshed, but if we are being completely serious here, he talks about a balance between two contradicting aspects the game, that few mmos manage or have an opportunity to get to.
Yeah he’s an idiot who shouldn’t be determining how pvp in a game works obviously if you own everyone you look at cause you no life it either gets boring, or you do it forever cause you have problems irl and have to feel power somewhere
@@joshuasmith8080 he isn't the one determining how it works he is just giving his opinions lol. . and people who put more time into their characters should have more power, that is one of the fundamental parts of an MMO lol.
@@hado33_ They should have more power, but that power shouldn't necessarily have basis in PVP. I can still flaunt my level 130 oversized greatsword of power. It looks really cool, I've got my max level title and I fly in on my mecha dragon of awesomeness. but when you sit down and compete against someone who is level 5 I think the argument is you should have enough skill to beat the level 5 character who hasn't read most of his skills. If someone is lower level and is better than you they should win.
@@AgiotaRural PVP scaling sucked (sucks?) in WoW because they have a bunch of different classes with a bazillion variables to contend with and they just can't. Their scaling system just introduced more variables, and what they need to do is remove them (at least in battlegrounds). Pick a static set of stats for each weapon type and armor type, and applies those to everyone who is playing in the battleground, and the players will have to rely on pure skill. Patches can be released to better balance things out without having to tweak 1000000000 variable combinations. Also, like 90% of Rextroy's exploits, while hilarious, exploit that stupid Gently Squeezed Toad - how has Blizz not removed that from the game??
@@By4o It doesn't have to become a p2w style. Companies just go that route b/c they are greedy and p2w brings in more $$. Scaling is awful because it strips away the incentive to achieve. I don't want the devs to decide that all my hard work and time spent to get to level 60 is "not fair" to level 40 players or less geared players so they crunch my numbers down and squash what I worked to get.
@@sygmarvexarion7891 If somebody put in the time and effort to learn the mechanics of the game more than you, they should be rewarded for it. PVP that is purely determined by grinding and player power, while fun for a little bit, ends up being boring as shit for most. While I agree in an mmo, your gear choice should play some role, or even a pretty significant one at that, it should not be the complete determining factor. Blizz left a bad taste in it's communities mouth after the nasty ass creampie that was their version of pvp scaling, but that should in no instance be accepted as a good representation of what the players wanted.
@@sygmarvexarion7891 This is such a pathetic view though. Like you think you deserve to bring your "better gear" into pvp just because you inserted more time coins into the gear slot machine. All you MMO players talking about "I earned this" when you really didn't, you just had more free time to waste to get an unfair pvp advantage because you have nothing better to do with your life. How about PVP that's only about skill? Oh wait, you hate that. I mean you could spend your time to get better at the PVP, get more skilled at the game, but nah, that requires actual real work rather than just grinding time. You need that unfair advantage to feel powerful.
@@parthon The point you're missing is that he did earn it. Him having more time than you to play shouldn't mean he should have to be limited to cater to your less available time. He invested the time, earned that better gear and shouldn't have that investment squashed because some people find it unfair. And where do you draw the line with your judgement? What about people with better performing computers? Faster internet connections? Better hand-eye coordination or faster muscle twitch speeds? Those are all factors that can give an edge over another player. Should those people be hamstrung as well to make things more "fair" to those who don't possess them? There are many games out there that rely solely on a player's skill for people like you. Why manipulate an RPG, a game that is BUILT AROUND CHARACTER STATS, into something it's not just in the name of your idea of "fairness"? Just go play those other games and let those who have the time to "waste" in an rpg enjoy the benefits of what they worked for.
@@antpop1 No, I'm not missing the point, I get the mentality, I just think it's pathetic. Like why does he get to have an unfair advantage in a pvp arena just because I have a social life and a job and he doesn't? If I'm more skilled but he has more time, then why does he get the advantage? If he's used his time to build skill, sure, but if he's just wasted it grinding it for an unfair starting advantage, that's not fine. Again, it's my opinion, but one you'll find a LOT of people share. I DO play those other games. I USED to pvp in WoW. I used to PVP as the trashy guy in greens and laugh whenever I would defeat a loserlord running around in grind purples. But now I stick to actual games that require actual skill. You aren't wrong there. My judgement is that it's pathetic. Yeah, I'm an arsehole with this opinion and yeah, I understand that there's many factors that affect "fair" competition, but simply time sunk in a boring and grindy way shouldn't be one of them, because it's pathetic. It's not skill in any way, just literally a way to make them feel better by fake winning in a virtual arena by wasting time that could be better spent improving themselves as people. (I'm not even saying getting better at a game is worthwhile either but that's another topic). I feel the same way about pay2win games, people with no skill except with a credit card. The problem is those people whine about it all the fucking time. The title of the original video from Josh Strife Hayes is Why is PVP in MMOs so hard to balance, and the answer is because of the pathetic people that play. Like you said, why fix MMO pvp, just let those players have their pathetic no-life grind advantage. Actual skilled players leave and go play better games. That just leaves pathetic players, and noobs who get stomped by the pathetic players and then leave. "Oh, how do we fix PVP?" is what they cry, while fighting hard to preserve their pathetic advantage. Meanwhile they shout so loud the devs actually listen and make big changes just to appease them and their sub fees. The MMO as a whole gets worse because the devs are trying to fix PVP for a bunch of people that don't want to fix it properly. But it's also funny looking at the MMO landscape right now. You have WoW, where they keep their barely working PVP alive and limping along. The loserlords "pwning" the weekend warriors in the various battlegrounds. ESO which could arguably be considered to have the fairest MMO pvp with all players being scaled. And then all the other MMOs with almost no players in PVP at all. There will always be some guy though that wants to pwn noobs in his time-wasted gear though. But you can ignore me. I'm just some idiot that's been playing MMOs since EQ. I play them for the story or the pve game play, and if I want some actual fair PVP, I go play something else. Which is pretty much what those pathetic gearlords want isn't it?
Guild Wars 1 was awesome, the design team made decisions that helped tremendously and allowed them to build a successfully pve and pvp game. Both community were able to enjoy the game.
@@Williosx Especially gw1, so good and unique. They need more games like the original rather then following after wow and other more modern mmos based off its flawed concept.
Dark Age of Camelot was the only MMO that ever got pvp correct IMO. The world was pve but there was a siege mod as you leveling where 2 of the factions would attack a castle defended by the 3rd faction. This enabled leveling players to learn how pvp when they wanted. At the level cap there was a central pvp siege zone where guilds would take and hold keeps to gain resources in a free for all outdoor pvp mode. The faction that held the majority of the keeps would gain access to a pve dungeon for a week that offered tokens for some of the best gear in the game. It was incredibly fun and seemed balanced and offered pvp on demand.
MMO pvpers love the imbalance in power. It makes them feel good. Unfortunately, that is why PvP will always be a niche game mode in MMOs, the simple reality is the vast majority of players don't actually like that kind of PvP, but the faithful minority is more than enough to keep it somewhat relevant.
Imagine saying everyone in pve content has to be balanced. Everyone does the same damage and is essentially the same level. That's how a pvper feels in an mmorpg when you tell them you want complete equality. You strip an entire community of the progression that comes with playing an mmorpg. Plenty of games that are non gear dependant at your disposal.
You need a form of progression in an MMO or the player will feel unrewarded for their time. Imagine if PVE players were balanced and doing dungeons rewarded only tittles and mounts..... PVE players would cry and they would have good reason too. Keep in mind progression PvP is popular outside of mmorpgs as well, league of legends, Smite, Valorant are all sped up progression games. You farm currency to have a gear advantage in a fight.
@@HouseholdGuppies 1-New World Devs are NOOBs at games. 2-they listen too much to people demanding 'Equality' because Amazon has to keep a Progressive image and some Devs / moderators are Woke af. 3-they think this is what most people want because of a few loud mouths on their forum without even doing Polls to actually see what the majority want.
@@HouseholdGuppies Why don't you progress to be better at PvP lol? This is why PvP in MMOs will always be a niche, its full of people who depend on gear to win even if they're bad.
I would argue that the biggest issue an MMO has with pvp is that they all try to follow the wow mmo format in the core game aspects of progression and play. This inherently prevents them from being PvP focused. A PvP MMO would need to be designed from the groundup to be PvP in a perpetual multiplayer world. Right now I'd say we dont have this and dont have companies willing to take the risk(for good reason cost vs little return) on trying new innovations.
Thank you for your honesty, this is the kind of comment we need to make MMORPG evolve and not look like all those generic UO/Eq/tibia/Wow like approach of character progression philosophy who are just outdated at this point. We have Albion Online that does it pretty well, and you should look at Into the echo, i'd say you'd be interested 👍
I always have to think about EVE Online when i hear people talking about PvP MMO. Within a pretty high margin, if you know what your ship + equipment does and what the enemy's ship + equipment (you have to guess/look at the enemy ship to see the weapons) and play to your strengths and the enemy's weakness. you will win a 1 on 1. Well.... or just bring a friend or two ;) But those 1 on 1 fights are soooo much fun, since your ship and the equipment will be lost/looted from the enemy when you die. this gets the heart /adrenalin pumping like i never had in any other game.
ive always thought planetside 2 did something cool with the concept of an mmofps game. i just wish another company would come along and improve upon what that game has done.
Eve Online is fundamentally PvP focused and it doesn't use the normal WoW format. Through a lot of mechanics big and small you can pvp and be useful basically from the start. But most devs wouldn't take the risk trying to make another Eve
Battlerite is by far the most balanced pvp game, no pay2win, and its almost dead, i think ppl dont like balanced games, they just like to complain how their game is trash like wow or etc...
@@joshuasmith8080 Its like wow arena, but more balanced, no items, no pay to win, you dont need to farm or grind, just que and play. Would recommend everyone who want balanced pvp game.
@@slobodanlazic2127 Battlerite is like wow arena? you should be high, no ofense. Battlerite has none of arena logic, no setups, no DR, no big CD management, etc. Its pretty much closer to LoL than WoW pvp. But yea, its a cool game...
@@isaac4240 Name me other game that is similar to wow arena other then Battlerite? If they fully copyed the wow arena with all that you mentioned, Blizzard would sue them for copyright.
Power increments in MMOs are a vestige of tabletop RPGs, used as a way to simulate what would otherwise be real player skill progression. But whether it’s click/tab targeting or aimed targeting, fast or slow tick rates, the player skill comes in their ability to manage the resources they are given to win. In a game like New World you are playing with a couple weapons at a time and three abilities. Your skill comes in by your ability to aim, and knowing how to juggle a few ability cooldowns and your health etc. In more traditional MMOs like WoW and FF14 your player skill comes from your ability to manage an ever-increasing swath of abilities, knowing how to target effectively. All of this is player skill. So besides being a vestige of tabletop RPGs, why do we still have levels and spell progression? Only to 1) give the player a tangible sense of progress, feedback from the game that the time they’ve spent has been well put to use and 2) to gate off content in an open world without resorting to actual barriers. I imagine in a level-less MMO something like a large open world FPS with a storyline. You can still gain new weapons and abilities but they don’t give you necessarily a power advantage just a tactical advantage. A player who just picked up Fireball 2 which does AOE damage now has a tactical advantage bc they can use Fireball 1 for single targets and Fireball 2 on multiple, all without necessarily making those spells do more damage as they progress. The progression comes from more tactics at your disposal and the skill is learning how to use them effectively (getting better at aiming and managing cooldowns and health). No need for power progression
This so much this yes please! Actually though why not? Now that I think about it, this is kind of how eso is a little bit, there’s still a lot of stuff that’s level gated, but they’ve removed a ton of stuff being level locked like as a level 10 you can go anywhere and fight anything only restrictions are dungeons really, it’s more about the exploration of the game, but of course pvp is a different situation but still this idea would be so amazing
@@joshuasmith8080 GW2 has relied on horizontal progression with its Masteries system since the 1st expansion. It has done some interesting things with locking zones behind non-level (and therefore non-power) abilities. Like in Heart of Thornes you unlock the ability to use gliding, using special tunnels, jumping mushrooms to get to new places. Path of Fire did that too with the different mount types gating off locations that you just couldn't reach. There are ways of gating off content more than just "you are too weak to fight the mobs here". If you take it a step further and totally flatten any power curve, you can use a system of horizontal skill progress like GW2 system to gate content, and the achievements system This has other ramifications too, like putting the crafting system progression in this same Masteries system: you unlock smithing, then advanced smithing, and so on. Of course, this opens a can of worms: what are you advancing smithing FOR when there is little to no power (and therefore armor) progression. For making more durable gear? The gear system would be mostly about transmogs, so do people just smith for making transmogs?
This is sounds fine in principle, but the thing about RPGs is that players want to offload personal skill onto their *characters.* I don't want to have to raise my IRL dexterity score, I want my *character* to be a master of aiming and finesse. Numeric gear progression isn't "a vestige", it is literally the entire point. You want to play a fundamentally different game. That's okay, but don't mistake skill-based toolkit challenges as being fundamentally better than an RPG simply because you like it. That said, I do have a different concern, which is: without numerical progression, you reach a point where the game's difficulty either entirely levels off for the rest of its life, or its content becomes nearly inaccessible to most players due to the extremely narrow margins of success and godlike levels of skill required to beat the new dungeon in a 15 year old game.
I think that gear should matter, but not in the way that most people think it should. I'm willing to bet most people think gear should matter in the way that if your have better gear with higher numbers on it, you should be more powerful by default. I disagree with this. Gear should matter in a way that is determined by how you utilize it. Taking NW as an example here, Heavy armor gives you more defense but make your dodge really shitty. It also increases your CC ability. Meanwhile, light armor gives you a great dodge and increases your damage output, but isn't nearly as protective. This is my idea of a good gearing system. You choose your gear based on how it affects your gameplay rather than just stacking raw stats so you can overpower other players. but I also think that's a mentality that has festered in MMO PvPers for far too long: most of these players seem to not be interested in "Getting good", they just want to feel powerful and roflstomp other players with little to no effort or skill on their part.
Yeah because it's the mmorpg genre. Your essentially saying you want pvpers stripped of all progression in an mmorpg. Plenty of games genres out there that are non gear dependant, go play those instead of stripping a community of a huge aspect of the genre.
MMOs are inherently a power progression grind game. You play to get more powerful over time so it’s how it should be. Imagine in wrath you grinded for months did the hardest content in the game to get shadowmourne and then go out to pvp with it and it’s useless. That would feel like shit. Grinding for that all powerful weapon that very few have should make you feel epic and powerful. It should make you global the noob that only has 10 minutes to play a day. If he wants a fair experience than either grind for the items or play a genre of game balanced around being able to hop into a match and being on even footing.
Guild Wars 1 and 2 have it the best way possible, you can start a new character and make him a pvp one. You get max level,access to all perks and max gear where you can twink your stats in 5 minutes. By doing pvp you get rewards you can get in pve and even some more
Just make a PvP game about everyone starting with the same stuff and able to gain skill during gameplay. And make PvE game about getting stronger, because you have to deal with the next environment that gets stronger as well. Seems like an easy fix and solution to every game that wants to do both. Combining both is an easy miss.
Mmo's should just have two pvp environments. A gear/level matched arena and full gear arena. Seems like having two environments would solve a lot of problems and allow newer players to practice pvp in a fun and constructive way.
Was going to say this. A preset arena where you are all equalized to a certain level, with specific gear. And then free-form. Let the endgamers completely trounce everyone.
This SOUNDS like a good idea, but would never actually work. The full gear arena would be used by literally the top 1% and then everyone else would use the gear/level matched. This would happen because no one WANTS to go into an arena to get 2 shot by their opponent, and that is exactly what WOULD happen in the full gear arena.
1. Video games and MMOs particualarly were created to replace realty. For most people MMOs are their second life where the can be whatever role they wish to be. 2. Real life is very unbalanced, there is no sphere of life where you can find balance. Even "balanced" games are unbalanced when you think about it. Let's say chess, it actually require time to master it and even if you dedicate 1000 hours of your life to study chess, someone way smarter than you with less hours will still kick your ass every game you play. Now if we consider 1 and 2 we can conclude that, taking away the immersion from MMOs will just kill them. A safe enviorment where everyone has the same stats, the same wepons, the same items and HP? This sounds dumb... And because of the nature of MMOs (level cap, limit of items, etc) there is a point in the game where everyone will become highest level, evryone will have the best gear and max health points - thus the game will become as much balanced as it can be... But nobody wants that, because everybody knows that this is dumb... This is why every MMO that have ever existed is making new content - new levels, new wepons, new in-game skills, because the game NEED TO BE UNBALANCED to be fun!
there's a concept going around about leveling up without PvPing so you can be in end game gear and max level so you aren't one shot or at a dire disadvantage. Well, if that's the case, why even have leveling in the game? I believe this is why MOBAs exploded in popularity about a decade ago. There was no grind to the endgame. The game IS the endgame. This is why I think PvP scaling is needed. Because if your goal is PvP, but it's all but impossible while leveling up, why even bother having a leveling system in the game?
Yeah, that's what mobas realized quite early on. At least LoL did. They used to have levels which, if I remember correctly, gave you talents with minor upgrades in game. They also had runes which gave you some advantage. However, that's not really part of the game anymore, as far as I'm aware of.
For me, PvP where you win because of power is just garbage period. PvP on MMOs (almost) always feels like it's there just to check the "has PvP box". That's why I don't give a crap about PvP in MMOs.
16:20 I think the problem here is player like this just enjoy the fact that they can take advantage to others, and they didn't feel ashamed to do so. It is really show what is the problem of real life, people that don't give a shit to others, the system or law allow them to do whatever shit they want to the weak. Yeah, this world have no hope.
My all time favorite MMO Guild wars 1 I think had a great system, 1- they had multiple arenas. One for level 10 and below, one for I think 15 and below and 1 for max level aside from the other pvp game modes as well as the ability to simply create a max level 20 character purely for pvp. 2- gear mattered somewhat before max level but because you had a max level the pvp was still fairly balanced. 3- you only had 8 skills you could use at any one time, but you had some 1-2hundred skills to choose from which caused not only skill, but strategy to play a part in pvp.
No game is balanced though. Every game is building up your advantage until you can beat your opponent. MMO's are the same just on the biggest scale of any other game it's what makes the game unique. The only game that has a bigger scale than MMO's is the game of life.
100%. Even the skill passives (traits) were unlocked at certain levels, to incentivize you to lev up while in the arena you had everything unlocked, minus some extra hp stat you could grind but hardly made a difference. However, many pvp players want full open world pvp, which GW2 didn't have. Like, you couldn't just flag up and pvp in every map and bully people gathering. I think Asmon's idea is really good for new world adding brackets where everyone is equal. I Will ALSO add to that a Ranking System Like Aion. But adjusted so that equally strong people gave the most points while people 10 levels lower than you would make you LOSE points instead. Or in a lower bracket. And it would be restricted not to affect Wars.
New Trials is probably one of the better moves they made. Otherwise, it would have just kept dying until they removed it like they did in D1. Sadly, the removal of SBMM definitely hurt the "drama" that he's talking about and leads to way too many mercies in most playlists.
@@zentikk nah, most people do seasonal challenges and wait until next week. Bounties are useless when you can get to gm level just doing the seasonal challenges every week until gm’s come out.
This shit also makes me think of that one episode of sword art online where the thieves tried killing and taking that girls shit and the main character steps in and was just so much higher level than them that he was healing their damage and told them to get the fuck out before he one shots them all. That’s how I wanna feel grinding an MMO lmao
I have a story from initial classic WoW, when the world PvP was a thing. I was a lvl40 Warlock, attacked by lvl60 Warrior. And iirc another lvl40 Druid came to help me. And slowly and gradually, we actually barely managed to kill the dude through kiting and controlling, despite infinite misses and resists. Felt weird, like it was an actually balanced PvP experience.
@@SNSTR It's more like pvp is an entirely different game without a progression system just slapped on to the core experience. When you are in pvp you are "not playing the mmo" anymore. When the dilemma requires you to go half the mile in either direction just make 2 different games. Think of GW2 like 2 different games sharing the same account and engine.
@@SNSTR You can go into a pvp match at level 2 and be competitive because there is no open world pvp in Guild wars 2. It is either Structured PvP or World vs World.(100vs100vs100). In structured PvP you will be upscaled to level 80 and the gear that is on you will not matter. You choose your stats via an amulet that you select from the pvp panel. PvP in Guild Wars 2 is purely skill based. If you lose a fight it is because you got outplayed. Not because you had 30 less item level.
@@SNSTR It actually is just a synched system. All pvp auto syncs stuff to max so it is easier to balance and work around. If a level 1 is beating a level 80 that level is trash or a bot
The problem wasn't pvp scaling, it was how it was implemented. It tried to emulate the damage a player of a lower level and stats would do to a player of higher level and stats instead of having both players with the same amount of stats for their class/spec. That was the problem.
i might be one of the few but as much as I enjoy playing mmos, I hate that time played is valued way more than skill. And (almost) every mmo has taken the philosophy that being skilled at your class means much less when compared raw stats. I'm not advocating for a mmo that is ONLY skill based, but I would prefer that skill should matter much more that it currently does. And I am pretty sure that having reduced skill expression in a game requires you to limit the tools given to the player. Hence having more skill expression would probably lead to more interesting and unique class design. Just my 2 cents
You might like GW2 then, if you aren't playing it already. There are people trying to run raids below max level, which really hampers build diversity (as some talent trees are only unlockable once you hit level cap) and certain stat scaling (no top-tier or max level gear, etc.).
For all it's flaws the first iteration of PvP in everquest 2 was done pretty well. Each zone had a level range that dictated how far down you could punch, and as you got to higher level areas that range increased essentially making it so you only got ganked by a max level player if you wanted to. Level and gear seems like a moot point though, as most MMOs try to have varied class identities which means there are inherent imbalances between the classes, regardless of power or skill level.
I will never forget in vanilla wow all the level 60s ganking lowbies in the Barrens or Terran Mill, knowing they had no chance to fight back and then running away whenever people of equal level came to defend it. It was literally just a power trip.
Played Classic for a while and never got to fight people of the same level. They're either running away and keeping distance or just not to be found anyways. But boy oh boy were there a lot of encounters with higher level players that could easily stomp me and camp on my corpse
Killing or escaping a higher level player and succeeding even though the odds aren't necessarily stacked in your favor is a rush that no other genre of game can provide. The imbalance of power in an MMO is not completely about "leveling up to win every time" for everyone. The people who are obsessed with balance are projecting their own insecurities and fear of losing onto pvp mmo enjoyers with this idea.
I don't agree about the insecurity part. I'm not a super amazing player but I've got 2.1k+ on multiple characters in season 1 of Shadowlands so acquired the best gear. Playing BGs and absolutely destroying people, because my gear was simply better, was not fun, it honestly killed non rated PvP for me. My geared characters were gods, my alts were peasants, very rarely would you have a good fight that felt "fair" and fun. Arenas got kind of ruined as well until you get to 1800 where you don't really care about gear differences at that point. The arena gear progression is a big contribution to PvPers (casual or hardcore) quitting the game and it's nothing to do with insecurities. If anything advocating for unbalanced gear, especially for rated PvP, is people projecting their skill insecurities since their enjoyment lies in defeating weaker opponents by default.
If you want a PVP and don't want gear to matter, you're better off just playing Fighting Games. PVP on an MMORPG is built on a foundation of grind/commitment > skill.
Thats why they are all dying out. Maybe it should start changing. And make no mistake, non of the new MMORPGs coming 2021 and 2022 will even come close to WoW even in it's current terrible state. They will all die in 6 months.
A lot of games basically have pvp as an entirely separate game mode, with different abilities, different rules, different progression. This raises the question: if you had to make a whole separate game to have pvp in your mmo, why couldn't that have just been its own standalone game? The reason: because these separate pvp modes aren't given the same resources to be good standalone games and are doomed to be distractions and side content.
Actually, I don't care for "unfair power differences". Open-world PvP in an MMO in my opinion is not about competition, it indeed is about using the power you have accumulated in the long term. Forcing some kind of fair competition in a game with clear power differences can lead to fun gameplay, but it's fundamentally weird. For fair competition, you have optional limited scenarios like arenas or just competitive games that are not MMOs. I've always found it weird how increasingly in MMOs, you quickly grind to a cap in PvE, until you become "PvP-ready", to be then able to compete equally. That's a weird way to build an MMO which in my opinion is about almost indefinitely accumulating power and progressing. To make the power difference meaningful, the game world and risk-balance needs to be meaningful in way that makes it possible to manage the risks or getting beaten if you are weak, until some later point where you can start being more free able to protect yourself.
I was really sad about the PvP changes made in New World for the open beta. One of the most memorable fights my husband and I encountered during the closed beta was us two versus a dude that was about 8-10 levels higher than us. So it was a 2v1, but with a HUGE level discrepancy, and the player was REALLY good with life staff + rapier, so he had a TON of sustain, and a lot of damage. It was soooo intense, cuz the two of us almost died several times, and we would have to start kiting away his damage, and spam potions on cooldown. My husband was also a life staff user, and with him healing me + potions + the beserk healing from hatchet, I narrowly escaped death SEVERAL times during the fight. It was a CRAZY long battle, but eventually we landed some cc (thanks to my husband's ice gauntlet) after getting the enemy to about half, and we managed to finish him off thanks to our coordination to blow all CDs when the CC hit. I'm really sad that there won't be any really epic PvP moments like that with the PvP scaling changes.
I’m not sure I entirely agree, at least from my own perspective. I’m an EVE player - the PvP is ever present, never fair, and often non-consensual. I do a lot of small-gang / solo stuff in an area that has a lot of try-hards who bling-fit their ships, but they are in no way unstoppable. Sometimes it takes the appropriate fit on your end to get them, sometimes it takes strategic planning with your group, but it’s doable and often the desirable thing to do because you’ll get their nice loot if you succeed. Smaller ships in groups can often take down larger ones, so even if someone wants to save the isk (in-game currency) and skill into something big, it doesn’t make them unbeatable. There’s counters for everything.
The MMO needs complex mechanics for you to evolve your techniques, at the same time you must have the stats with the advantage of time. This makes the player 10 levels below you more threatening, but not because of status.
i think many games are balanced in a way where high skill / badly geared players can win over well geared but bad players, however people usually think of themselves as better than the rest, so loosing means that it must be completely unbalanced
"That's just MMOs, MMOs are unbalanced so we just shouldn't ever endeavor to try to balance them." I mean...aight...I mean...we could just balance it though? This dude is admittedly arguing in favor of griefing, because imbalance is fun for him. Love you Asmon, but nah...let's just make the game balanced. Then it's better for EVERYONE.
@@joshuasmith8080 how do you say that someone who is selfaware enough to know that what they enjoy is bad is contradicting themself? You can tell he fully agrees with the video he watches. The video flat out calls him a bully and asmon literally says, YES to that. You can enjoy a broken system but also want to fix said broken system. Cause said broken system is boring cause all you do is exploit it which over time just becomes common practice.
The title already man - the title. Happens so often that "fun" gets nerfed. Not just in MMO's. But yeah remember it happening way too often even in WoW alone.
Could also limit pvp to something like +/- 5 levels (can be higher or lower amount depending on the game ofcourse). There will be a powergap, but skill might overcome it.
Ex Blizzard devs left before WoW to make Guild Wars 1 to make a mmo where the pvp would be the main part. WoW went the opposite way where level was of most importance.
The idea of balanced PvP in an MMORPG is an oxymoron, because an integral part of an RPG is progression and, I would argue, power fantasy. However, what JSH seems to be asserting is that progression is problem in an RPG that includes PvP, and therefore should be modified or removed. To me, that's almost like saying you like swimming but think water is problematic. I would say that if you don't like water, swimming may not be your best option as a hobby.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 I don't think that is quite it. He's arguing that progression driven gameplay (ie, a roleplaying game) and *balanced* PvP are incompatible, and for what it's worth he is correct. I would argue that if you don't want progression interfering with your PvP balance, you don't really want to play an MMORPG. What you want is a different genre of game.
MMO PvP was pretty fun (but definitely not balanced) during WoW Vanilla - the skirmishes at Crossroads in the Barrens are something I still remember today. Back then, the game still had lots of mystery about it, players were generally less-informed and it was really just for the fun - and the novelty of actually battling other people online as part of a 'group' (i.e. your guild or even faction). Even getting crushed by someone 20 levels higher than you on an epic mount was admittedly pretty cool because it made you want to *be* that player.
Not every MMO has to have PvP as a side thing. Game can be mainly PvP focused and have mmo progression as side gameplay. It won't cater to actual mmo players and thats fine.
Yeap, exactly. Having fought in FPSs before playing *WOW* , the latter's PVP is in summary "easy mode". It's plain unsatisfying to see someone win, even for myself, simply by pressing a few buttons and let the gear stats do the heavy lifting. Real satisfaction comes from having understood the world physics and one's own weapon characteristics to pull off the perfect shot or trick moves. It is not enough to have a powerful weapon and sturdy armour. But of course there is no aiming in *WOW* .
Naked Andy's shouldn't be able to spam into a game and just roll geared high lvl players. Pvp scaling invalidates all the time and effort that consistent players put into the game, one way that would be good for balance is make it so that the lvl and gear power curve isn't super aggressive but you still have progression. That way a skilled lvl 20 geared and a lvl 40 not so gear could square off. This problem is looked at the wrong way, It should be looked at progression vs power curve because that dictates all the down stream mechanics.
Indeed. In MMOS it's a long term investment to gain advantages, even minimal like spending hours grinding for 1 HP. It makes no sense that characters 10 levels apart do the same damage. A Fortnite style pvp doesn't fit into an open world MMO. Also, New world skill cap is VERY limited having just 6 skills. A META is easy to achieve and saves any trouble learning I think New World pvp will die out in a month or 2. I don't see it lasting more with this scaling that invalidates leveling and progression completely. There is no point or incentive or anything to show off. I'm looking more forward to Lost Ark pvp. Friends played it and it's well-balanced.
@@user-co2fg4yp3i This. There is a balance that needs to be maintained. The people advocating for gear not mattering in PvP shouldn't be playing an MMO. Gear should matter in all aspects of an MMO. That's part of playing an MMO. If I want to grind for the best gear in game and absolutely blast people, I should 100% be able to do that. That's in the spirit of playing an MMO. Players get gear to feel stronger than other players. If you want purely skill based PvP... why play an MMO? Go play something else.
@@therunningente6929 world of warcraft has NEVER been remotely close to balance. Pvp has always been the last thought on the developers mind and the game has never had that focus. Wow has always been, and always will be a PvE game with 5% PvP. If you disagree, look at the last time they added a new BG. A new mode or even a map of the same mode.... Yeah. Compare that to the 10+ dungeons and 18-25 raid bosses an expansion.
As someone who grew up playing fighting games in arcades, PVP games with RPG mechanics never made any sense to me. It would be like playing a game of Street Fighter II or Mortal Kombat, where Player 2 gets nerfed to inflicting half damage, move at half speed, and can't use any special moves. The reward for playing hours and hours on a fighting game was you were just better than people who didn't. I saw plenty of newbs get wrecked by elite players within 10-15 seconds back in those days.
I said this in the comment section of this video, and I'll say it again here, it seems disingenuous to compare competitive games directly to open world PVP in MMOs. The intent of Open World PVP generally isn't to be competitively balanced, it's to make the world feel more dynamic, dangerous, and real. The balance arguments make more sense if you focus on instanced PVP, like battlegrounds or Arenas. A single match of instanced PVP is more comparable to a game of something like chess, or a round of an FPS. An argument can be made that games where the whole world has gamified territory control elements should be more balanced overall, but that is because the intent of the world PVP becomes less about making the world feel dynamic and more about the whole world being a large scale PVP competition. It's also flawed to act like the idea of lower levels being killed by higher levels is nothing but bullying. The possibility of being caught by high level enemies is part of the excitement of moving through a dangerous area. It can become part of the game experience that you need to plan appropriately in order to safely traverse the world. There are people who thrive on these environments. The idea that Josh doesn't like it is fine, he doesn't have to, but if every MMO made everything balanced the way Josh is advocating for then people who want a different experience then he does would have nowhere to go.
IMO, in PvP, gear shouldn't matter in terms of stats, but in how it affects gameplay. Like, heavy armor should make dodging more costly, but in turn makes you more tanky, light armor doesn't protect that well, but you should be able to pull a few more punches, since you don't get tired as fast. Two handed weapons should be slow and cumbersome, but with more damage, dealing damage in bursts, and light weapons should be fast weak, but dealing continuous damage, so in the DPS race, after a set amount of time, both dish the same amount of damage.
Blade and Soul had great PvP (in the beginning at least) The only impact your progress had in PvP were some stronger skills, but the gear was balanced. It was in an arena 1v1 or 3v3 i think. You could create a character and at level 30 or something that you could join PvP you just went ahead and PvPed like you would in end-game (minus some skills of course. You didn't have to grind all the way to end-game, get the best gear and min-max the shit out of your build just to experience skill-based PvP. Then again, the lag was making this almost unplayable at times, but as a mechanic it was the perfect balance of PvP and PvE. There was always open world PvP where you would most likely get rolled by some beast player and other team arenas where the gear wasn't balanced, but the main PvP attraction was Arena (competitive, with rankings and rewards) If not for NCSoft and the lag BnS was incredible.
Open world PvP is fine to be unbalanced. Organized PvP (arenas, battlegrounds, etc.) should be power balanced - but that also requires the classes to be balanced and they never have been in WoW.
Why shouldn't open world PvP be unbalanced? What counts is whether the structured PvP (BGs, arena, etc) are balanced IMO and I have no problem seeing the template or ilvl fix go in there. But with Classic in mind for open world what makes someone better? Probably being loaded up on pots, bandages, engi bombs, etc, and that's on top of any gear differential. Who doesn't like the Pshero vids where two guys try to gank him but he stuns them, gets out of combat, eats, stuns them, bandages, takes one down to 20%, runs away, saps one, finishes the other... you get the idea. Was that skill? Or was that because he was overflowing with consumables? Does that mean to run around with bags full of consumes is skillful? I don't understand the point. Open world should be a sandbox, so unbalances will natural form. Artificially trying to balance a sandbox concept is just designing out the fun of a game.
They should make a system where players with a disproportionate level advantage say 5-10+ are ganking leveling players, they receive a bounty on their head that the entire server can see.
I haven't played WoW in like a decade at this point, but one of my favorite PvP memories from back in WotLK was just protecting some "sprouts" from trolls. I didn't generally participate in PvP, so I didn't have any of the related gear, but I was pretty far into the current end game raid content. The little gulch between Origrimmar and the starter village had an Alliance Warlock and Paladin decked out in PvP gear flagged and baiting the "sprouts" into attacking them. I mained Disc Priest and had Shadow Priest offspec'd. Went shadow priest and managed to kill the Warlock and hold the Pally to a standstill till he gave up and ran away on my own.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 sorry, in Final Fantasy XIV new players are often referred to as "sprouts", they have a little icon shaped like a sprout so others are aware they're still new and learning.
Its sort of like how Ffxiv does balancing where abilities do a certain potency which scales off your gear in pve, and makes it so you always know which abilities do what type of damage.
Could work to an extent, but it negates health. It would be as if everyone has 100 hp and would cause either an imbalanced class or eliminate the need for classes all together. A system is needed and skills added to make classes compelling. I'm not saying it's a bad idea at all, it would just need a lot of refinement.
It makes no sense that characters 10 levels apart do the same damage. It invalidates leveling completely and negates progression, and advantages that players naturally seek. A Fortnite style pvp doesn't fit into an MMO. Note that I come from GW2 where everyone had the same gear. Just that passives were locked behind levels. What's wrong with reaching lev 80 and have full access to pvp? You may argue that you can get better Skill-wise, but New world skill cap is VERY limited having just 6 skills. Just get a META, learn it, spend a few hours and you are done. How much fun you can have after that? How much more advantage? Anything you can learn? New World pvp will die out in a month or 2. I don't see it lasting more with this scaling. There is no point or incentive or anything to show off. If you want a high-skill based game, BDO is for you. Not in open world tho cuz the difference in power is just too ridiculous. Still, it's a game where you need many hours to be decent and hundreds of pvp hours to be good.
Balance is the antithesis of roleplaying. I got into WoW because i liked the RPG aspect, clearing content and upgrading ect. Arena and resilience did a good job of containing the people who want to play wizard counterstrike. So can't complain.
Yea PvP is hard to balance but the PvP in MoP 5.4 was the best PvP in WoW ever and was also the last time PvP was balanced. I know some classes were a bit op like frost mages and destro locks but overall it was really well balanced
4:55 Serious truth bomb here. In fact, this bomb is booming so hard, that everything before and after this statement is redundant. This...this right here. Is the biggest dilemma. And we can't even blame them. Asmongold, the thing is...nothing appeals more than power. We're hardwired apes and we can't help it. The reason people win with skills, is because they chose that route to end up exactly where the whales and the gear focused noobs want to end up: in a position of power. It's not the journey that matters, even though we appreciate a nice one. But we're just as willing to grind hard, repeat the most boring shit, if that gets us there. Even though we like to convince ourselves that's not true.. it is. In the end, we all want the same: more power and status. Some people are priviliged with money. Others with time. Others with good working brains. It doesn't matter which privilige people have. They will always consider the use of their privilige THE way their game was intended to play. The other apes are always the false ones. That's the nature of apes. We can't help it. And the more we try to simulate real life, the more prominent this behaviour is. And I wouldn't have it any other way:) I wouldn't be able to type this on my wireless minicomputer/phone, on my couch, in my awesome house, if it wasn't for this toxic masculine behaviour;) Apes, together, strong.
Proper balance in any case, but especially PvP, is so challenging because it requires developers who can actually play at the highest level. Most developers frankly suck or are just "pretty good." If you had developers who were actually great at the game and weren't immensely biased to favor certain classes, then you could achieve balance. This should hold true for any MMORPG.
That's one of the (few) good things about FFXIV PvP, it's 100% based on skill and teamwork. Outside of buffs and debuffs two players playing the same job will have the same amount of HP, damage, crit rate, defense, all of those stats. At that point it's just about learning matchups, when to engage, when to disengage, and when to use your cooldowns, as well as how to dodge. Typically there is a bit of a rock paper scissors. Melee beats Magic because they can approach and kill before Magic can get too many spells off, most of the time. Magic beats Ranged because they simply win the DPS race. Ranged beats Melee because they have the maneuverability and slowdown effects to kite melees almost forever.
It's way less about skill and moreso if you have teammates that know what they're doing. Also what are you talking about for the last part because that's def not ff14 at all XD
@@restinginn9906 You say that, but they already have, and it was extremely unpopular and reverted much to the praise of the community. This is an MMO, gear should matter. If you want purely balanced PvP, play a different genre of game.
@@nimmer4749 No they haven't. They never did what GW2 did. WoW previously had PvP scaling and it was unpopular because of buggy mechanics where putting on better gear somehow actually decreased your damage output. What I want is what Guild Wars 2 has. You all have the exact same gear on, the only difference is what talent tree you invest in (so different builds are still possible) and your skill in the game. Even Asmongold says at the end "I don't really like it. It's just something I do for fun for 2 days and then I get bored" - So why advocate for something like this? It's not real competition, it's just a noob stomp ego boost. Also, that's an awful argument - "Just go play something else" - I happen to enjoy MMO PvP the most out of any PvP game I've played thus far but I enjoy it most when there is an even playing field.
@@restinginn9906 in Legion WoW had stat templates for every class which were removed in BFA. It was all literally the exact same as no one having gear. And Asmon argues for a middle ground, not a pure skill based experience, which I also am in favor of. When Josh says "people want good gear to smash other players" he responds over and over with "YEP!" "ABSOLUTELY" because that's what people do in MMOs. They get stronger gear and do character progression to get more powerful. It's the entire point of the genre, and when an MMO goes out of it's way to make gear not matter, it's counterintuitive to the point of the genre. I do, in fact, think that if you want a purely skill based experience, why play an MMO?
This isn't just a thing in MMOs, it's all PvP games. Look at how many players have complained against SBMM in games like Warzone. They get put in games with similarly skilled players and sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. But they want to get into games with people that they can stomp on because it's more fun.
The thing with open world PvP is that if you're gear and items don't have an effect then it doesn't feel like it's worth it to spend the time/gold/money getting better gear, but then people will cry that the game is unbalanced. This is the progression in MMOs, in competitive PvP games, progression is done through ranking up, everything is a level playing field and you improve your skill at the game. The best way to handle this in MMOs is to have standard open world PvP and then levelized (like all gear is equalized) arenas with rankings. This gives everyone what they want. Games that focus solely on skill are really fun, if you get good at them. They are downright frustrating for new player though. A good example is Mordhau, you can get all the weapons very quickly and then it's a level playing field. But then you see Giru 5v1 and he kills everyone. On the last point, in real life this is how the oldest form of competition, war, works. You don't fight a fair fight, you spend as much time and money as possible coming up with new and innovative ways to easily win. You're trying as hard as possible to show up to the fight with an unfair advantage, you want to ensure your victory before the first blood is drawn. This is how many people in MMOs feel, and how you get people to engage in all of the content. I want to win in PvP, so I'm going to go run this dungeon to get the best in slot gear, I'm going to contact a crafter to buy the best consumables, I'm going to spend gold upgrading my gear, I'm going to go farm mobs to level up, then I'm going to go and actually do PvP, and if I lose, I'm going to do it all again to ensure I'm as best equipped for the next fight as I can be. That's the thing, PvP in an MMO doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's not like a MOBA where the entire game is PvP.
Games don't allow for certain IRL buffs like a boxer training to hit harder. A boxer lifts weights, hits the bag - essentially grinds. Leveling his skill and his power at the same time. The work around in-game, is to make people grind for better gear, therefore increasing power (gear) and skill (abilities, mechanics, systems) You wouldn't see a day 1 boxer saying "This is bullshit, i dont wanna train for 5 years to be as good as a seasoned pro" Yeah - they don't put beginners against pro's, but thats what the PVP brackets do. Arena brackets, RBG level brackets etc. There needs to be more work, but making everyone equal despite their effortis not the answer.
"They want to have that power difference." I can say though: Earning a power difference through skill feels SO MUCH better than through time. But Wow does not give the opportunity to do that. Because a low gear score character will never beat a very high gear score character even if they play better. I don't get why they don't include something like PVP tournaments into MMOs. The winners could even be announced server-wide every day etc. And in these tournaments the characters would all have to use the same gear so the fight is equal. You could still have open world pvp the same way it is now, but there would be that chance to look for "the BEST player" not "the best player with the best gear". I think that would also encourage a lot of casual players to play more WoW. Yes, you could just go to another game to play PVP, but why lose all these players to other games instead of fixing this?
Sport vs war. Sport is about fair competition, war is about being the most prepared and destroying your enemy. eSport games need fair competition, mmorpg’s are rpg’s and power fantasies. MMO’s are about time investment reward, play an FPS or fighting game if you want balanced and fair competition. Power brackets are a fair compromise.
Its MMOs, the whole point IS to get stronger, farm, PvE... Its designed to reward the players that devotes their time and sanity into achieving better gear, better weapons and higher levels. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Nothing is stoping people from going to an actual PvP game...
I think a big issue with New World specifically is that alot of the "hardcore pvpers" dont want to play New World. They just want to play a pvp game with magic and medieval weapons. I mean complaining about having to do the main story or pve in general in order to progress through the game seems kinda backwards.
Personally, I’m not so overly concerned with balance. Yeah, there are those that can kill you with one hit, but there is a certain sense of satisfaction, when you manage to kill someone clearly stronger than you.
See I'm the opposite. I think good balance lends to good game design. Balance allows for diversity in its player base as well. As in you won't see just the same classes running out in the world (or at least that's the idea). Would be boring if all you seen is warriors because of how unbalanced they were/op. For me a battle is more invigorating when there isn't a gear check. They tend to last longer then just one shot your dead, and require more tactics to win. It becomes more skill based rather then gear based or wallet based in the case of some games. And when you look at the pvp charts you will know that those people actually earned their place to be there. Balance also makes pvp more accessible as a whole. Ever play a a p2w game with pvp? Not particularly fun, at least for the vast majority. Balance still provides a challenge, or else everyone would be in the top 10 charts so there is still people and progress you can work towards who could be considered better then you skill wise. If you really feel the need to handy cap your self though I guess you can take off your gear...or just try fighting better players.
@@christopherdsuza324 Perhaps it depends on the game. Years ago, there was an MMO called Lunia, which had more action oriented gameplay. So even if one had P2W gear, you could still beat them, if you had the proper skill and timing.
Guild wars 2 has pvp where everyone has their stats reset natively and all weapons and builds unlocked. You can pick what you want and queue for arena. So there are mmos where pvp is balanced if you want. Just play what you preffer
The problem with Gw2 is also that even if there is a lot of diversity in builds, in the end you just use 1~3 per class
@@xXGranaXx true, but still on the upper end compared to most of other games pvp. Having meta is just a natural order of things.
I havent played gw2 in a long time since i grew out of it but when i was playing there were also constant rebalances and changes to classes so the metas did change quite regulary.
@@xXGranaXx There are not really that much diversity in GW2 builds as you like them to be effective as well. Only 1-3 builds per profession works well and as such is considered viable options. This is one of the reasons true GW1 fans dislikes GW2, the lack of diversity while still having viable build options.
Now with that said, there are a few things they introduced in GW2 that I like personally, but the changes didn't have to be at the price of build diversity.
@TheSpectacularRevenant kind of? FF14 just auto sets stats and stuff based on job, but there’s a lot more classes leading to a lot of diversity (since your job is your “build” effectively).
I think Guild wars 1 was better for pvp as there were a lot more options for builds and so you had quite a few builds that were all for different playstyles/scenarios.
And when the game is "dying out" and people start blame other players for being bad and not want to be their punching ball any longer. It come to full circle. In most pvp games I played of such nature, very few players of equal level want to fight each other. They look for a weaker targets to beat up to the tune of "delicious salty tears"...
Indeed. Josh ignores this. Most Skilled players or Overgeared players ALWAYS seek weaker opponents to beat for the Salty Tear rewards. Although in Aion we had better incentives to go after strong opponents because their higher ranks gave better rewards while weaker players were even ignored sometimes. To save skills.
It's just different advantages when it comes to pvp. Some get skilled first, others get geared first. to remove such progression in an mmo is just stupid. It's just fortnite with better graphics.
@@joshanonline Yes, Aion was a good example how pvp system in mmorpgs can work, unfortunately can't say the same for pvp mechanism itself, chasing a target while flying was always a nightmare, not to mention between other things. Lineage 2 also had a nice system (not perfect by all means, but...), I've never found any other mmorpg with the same pvp/pve quality lvl.
That is the same sort of thought process that leads to players making 'twinks'
@@joshanonline I totally understand that for games like NW, more open world games. It probably is so much different for different kinds of MMOs. But I think there is bit of an issue when you have, like in wow, gear tide to ranked games, where the gear you and your opponent has matters a lot. That's why a lot of people decide to get boosted. The issue is made even worse if you decide to join to season later on, which even further deters people from taking part in it.
You shouldn't have to have the skill of a 2100+ rating player to get 1800 rating gear.
The best pvp game I have played and the only one that got me addicted is dragon nest. Gear has no effect only skill. Like battlefield, u got blue and red team with 200 ticket on both side. U die, u respawn and the ticket got lesser. What fascinate me the most is even if u are a noob, your well place aoe or crowd control could turn the tide of battle. When one side lost, the reward is distributed and the map changed. Because its ongoing, u will lost track of time.
On the other hand, the worst pvp MMO I have played is Neverwinter online. Largely because they incorporate gear power in pvp. New player just dont stand a chance. U either need to spend a huge sum of money or spend month and years of PVE grind to get to that BIS state to compete or at certain gear level to stand a chance. In other word, they want u to gear up before u talk about skill. That just turn me off quickly. I think gearing up and min maxing should be in PVE not PVP.
Skill based pvp that’s GW2, everyone gets max level weapons and stats. Power level is non existent skill is the only thing but if you do want to be unbalanced go WvW.
More games should definitely have a GW2 arena system even if they're going to let gear determine the winner in the open world. Which GW2 does technically there just isn't a big gear grind gap.
Absolutely. That's why that game does it well. You have your balanced competitive pvp arena where skill and teamwork are most rewarded. You could go in with a pve character, but people play with maxed out pvp characters that automatically get maximum power.
Then you ALSO have a free for all where you are rewarded for the power you earned. This still gives rewards to lower level players who can get things done and beat npcs, and bringing in tons of noobs on your side (since they get boosted up to be able to do something at least) is good because it still gives your group a numbers advantage regardless of them being individually weaker.
There should be a supported way to easily get balanced skilled honorable duels and fights, and then there should be the opportunity for unfair fights sometimes too.
Thats why I'm downloading it now and won't step into wow (main interest is pvp there) unless they figure out a way to have proper scaling in that game.
Even auto balancing gear in different zones would be great for pvp in the open world, not only Arena.
@@Fubasta GW2 is fun for structured PVP and maybe even WvW, but pve (read raiding) is basically all melee, which is something that bothers me as an elementalist (mage) I'm forced to stand in melee :D
GW1 and GW2 sipping tea out of their respective Asmongold and JSH mugs:
"are we a joke to you?"
GW1 is still the best MMO PVP game ever. Nothing comes close.
I was looking for this comment 🤣
@@afrules9097 Huh... you misspelled Lineage 2 wrong, bro. But I understand it is from the same publisher...
FFXIV is static PvP all DPS have set health, healers, tankd
@@vasiljambazov lmao lineage was like the grindiest game ever when it at its peak back in 2008
This type of game design inherently gives a games pvp a shelf life. Soon as a core group of the player base grinds to the top, it becomes increasingly unattractive to new players. The competition drys up or becomes stale and that’s the end of the game.
World PvP should be gear based free for all catering to the one’s who enjoy that aspect etc
Rating PvP (arena, ranked) should be all skill based, everyone gets set to equal gear
With any buffs and nerfs revolving around PvP talents/abilities affecting only instances of Rating PvP
We enjoyed pvp like that in GW2. Tho it took incentives to make people pvp. The fights were epic. Everyone had the same gear.
In the end, a videogame can contain everything the developers want. No rule deny the ability of an MMO to have a place where the players can stomp others with raw gear power and also have a system the players can use to organize skill based pvp with perfect scaling and balance.
@@nekrell5711 too bad New World Devs are Noobs. That game is doomed. Especially once Lost Ark comes out.
This. This is exactly how it works in Lost Ark and that game is one of the best MMOs on the market atm.
This is exactly what worries me about AoC, since it is based more on conflict between people and more pvp. I don't know how balanced it is going to feel. The cycle repeats itself, MMOs are based on end game content because if you don't have end game gear you are at a massive disadvantage compared to everyone that has it. If I could spend my life playing the game then I would be fine for the system but sadly that is not possible.
@@henrythegreatamerican8136 That's the same thing as instanced, if you separate pve from pvp (open world or not) and all stats, levels are brought to a standard then all the lvl up and equips has been all for nothing and the game feels disingenuous, no one wants to waste time lvling up a character or farming up a gear and then brought down (or up) every time you want to do pvp and knowing that doesn't count for anything.
Not to mention 64 class combinations
@@zettour. that is exatly how PvP is in Lost Ark and people still complain that island PvP (open world PvP) isn't gear-equalized.
I come from Dark Age of Camelot, i am finde with some imbalance - if you still have the feel to be able to accomplish something against specific classes. I am fine if PVP cant be balanced for 100%.
What's AoC ? It keeps telling me it's Alexandria Ocasio-Corte lol
Asmongold: "PVP should be unbalanced because of Power"
Also Asmon: "Pvp get's boring because you own everyone"
And Also Asmon: "Why is people leaving the game?"
Don't want to get wooshed, but if we are being completely serious here, he talks about a balance between two contradicting aspects the game, that few mmos manage or have an opportunity to get to.
Yeah he’s an idiot who shouldn’t be determining how pvp in a game works obviously if you own everyone you look at cause you no life it either gets boring, or you do it forever cause you have problems irl and have to feel power somewhere
@@joshuasmith8080 he isn't the one determining how it works he is just giving his opinions lol. . and people who put more time into their characters should have more power, that is one of the fundamental parts of an MMO lol.
@Niklas Gustafsson - Nice Cherrypicking, next time try to actually summarize the video instead of trying to get a gotcha comment you numpty
@@hado33_ They should have more power, but that power shouldn't necessarily have basis in PVP. I can still flaunt my level 130 oversized greatsword of power. It looks really cool, I've got my max level title and I fly in on my mecha dragon of awesomeness. but when you sit down and compete against someone who is level 5 I think the argument is you should have enough skill to beat the level 5 character who hasn't read most of his skills. If someone is lower level and is better than you they should win.
I'm glad asmongold completely understands, with full self awareness
@@By4o they removed PvP scaling because it was ridiculous, man. Check Rextroy's videos.
@@AgiotaRural PVP scaling sucked (sucks?) in WoW because they have a bunch of different classes with a bazillion variables to contend with and they just can't. Their scaling system just introduced more variables, and what they need to do is remove them (at least in battlegrounds). Pick a static set of stats for each weapon type and armor type, and applies those to everyone who is playing in the battleground, and the players will have to rely on pure skill. Patches can be released to better balance things out without having to tweak 1000000000 variable combinations.
Also, like 90% of Rextroy's exploits, while hilarious, exploit that stupid Gently Squeezed Toad - how has Blizz not removed that from the game??
@@By4o It doesn't have to become a p2w style. Companies just go that route b/c they are greedy and p2w brings in more $$. Scaling is awful because it strips away the incentive to achieve. I don't want the devs to decide that all my hard work and time spent to get to level 60 is "not fair" to level 40 players or less geared players so they crunch my numbers down and squash what I worked to get.
Players: We want PVP scaling.
Asmon: We got PVP scaling at home.
PVP Scaling at home: *Blizzard fucked it up*
You sound like the guy in new world who was 20 levels higher than me and still lost cause you’re shit
@@sygmarvexarion7891 If somebody put in the time and effort to learn the mechanics of the game more than you, they should be rewarded for it. PVP that is purely determined by grinding and player power, while fun for a little bit, ends up being boring as shit for most. While I agree in an mmo, your gear choice should play some role, or even a pretty significant one at that, it should not be the complete determining factor. Blizz left a bad taste in it's communities mouth after the nasty ass creampie that was their version of pvp scaling, but that should in no instance be accepted as a good representation of what the players wanted.
@@sygmarvexarion7891 This is such a pathetic view though. Like you think you deserve to bring your "better gear" into pvp just because you inserted more time coins into the gear slot machine. All you MMO players talking about "I earned this" when you really didn't, you just had more free time to waste to get an unfair pvp advantage because you have nothing better to do with your life.
How about PVP that's only about skill? Oh wait, you hate that. I mean you could spend your time to get better at the PVP, get more skilled at the game, but nah, that requires actual real work rather than just grinding time. You need that unfair advantage to feel powerful.
@@parthon The point you're missing is that he did earn it. Him having more time than you to play shouldn't mean he should have to be limited to cater to your less available time. He invested the time, earned that better gear and shouldn't have that investment squashed because some people find it unfair.
And where do you draw the line with your judgement? What about people with better performing computers? Faster internet connections? Better hand-eye coordination or faster muscle twitch speeds? Those are all factors that can give an edge over another player. Should those people be hamstrung as well to make things more "fair" to those who don't possess them?
There are many games out there that rely solely on a player's skill for people like you. Why manipulate an RPG, a game that is BUILT AROUND CHARACTER STATS, into something it's not just in the name of your idea of "fairness"? Just go play those other games and let those who have the time to "waste" in an rpg enjoy the benefits of what they worked for.
@@antpop1 No, I'm not missing the point, I get the mentality, I just think it's pathetic. Like why does he get to have an unfair advantage in a pvp arena just because I have a social life and a job and he doesn't? If I'm more skilled but he has more time, then why does he get the advantage? If he's used his time to build skill, sure, but if he's just wasted it grinding it for an unfair starting advantage, that's not fine. Again, it's my opinion, but one you'll find a LOT of people share.
I DO play those other games. I USED to pvp in WoW. I used to PVP as the trashy guy in greens and laugh whenever I would defeat a loserlord running around in grind purples. But now I stick to actual games that require actual skill. You aren't wrong there.
My judgement is that it's pathetic. Yeah, I'm an arsehole with this opinion and yeah, I understand that there's many factors that affect "fair" competition, but simply time sunk in a boring and grindy way shouldn't be one of them, because it's pathetic. It's not skill in any way, just literally a way to make them feel better by fake winning in a virtual arena by wasting time that could be better spent improving themselves as people. (I'm not even saying getting better at a game is worthwhile either but that's another topic). I feel the same way about pay2win games, people with no skill except with a credit card.
The problem is those people whine about it all the fucking time. The title of the original video from Josh Strife Hayes is Why is PVP in MMOs so hard to balance, and the answer is because of the pathetic people that play. Like you said, why fix MMO pvp, just let those players have their pathetic no-life grind advantage. Actual skilled players leave and go play better games. That just leaves pathetic players, and noobs who get stomped by the pathetic players and then leave. "Oh, how do we fix PVP?" is what they cry, while fighting hard to preserve their pathetic advantage. Meanwhile they shout so loud the devs actually listen and make big changes just to appease them and their sub fees. The MMO as a whole gets worse because the devs are trying to fix PVP for a bunch of people that don't want to fix it properly.
But it's also funny looking at the MMO landscape right now. You have WoW, where they keep their barely working PVP alive and limping along. The loserlords "pwning" the weekend warriors in the various battlegrounds. ESO which could arguably be considered to have the fairest MMO pvp with all players being scaled. And then all the other MMOs with almost no players in PVP at all. There will always be some guy though that wants to pwn noobs in his time-wasted gear though.
But you can ignore me. I'm just some idiot that's been playing MMOs since EQ. I play them for the story or the pve game play, and if I want some actual fair PVP, I go play something else. Which is pretty much what those pathetic gearlords want isn't it?
Guild Wars 1 was awesome, the design team made decisions that helped tremendously and allowed them to build a successfully pve and pvp game. Both community were able to enjoy the game.
Love gw1 and gw2 too ! The way they approach both PvE and PvP is refreshing in current mmorpg shitty design era.
Yeah I agree!
The GW dev team have traditionally been active gamers themselves. GW1 is still my hands-down favorite PVP game.
I did the run to get the best armor and crush people as a warrior at I believe it was lvl 10. It was so much fun. Totally balanced.
@@Williosx Especially gw1, so good and unique. They need more games like the original rather then following after wow and other more modern mmos based off its flawed concept.
Dark Age of Camelot was the only MMO that ever got pvp correct IMO. The world was pve but there was a siege mod as you leveling where 2 of the factions would attack a castle defended by the 3rd faction. This enabled leveling players to learn how pvp when they wanted. At the level cap there was a central pvp siege zone where guilds would take and hold keeps to gain resources in a free for all outdoor pvp mode. The faction that held the majority of the keeps would gain access to a pve dungeon for a week that offered tokens for some of the best gear in the game. It was incredibly fun and seemed balanced and offered pvp on demand.
Nothing will ever compare to DAOC. Nothing
MMO pvpers love the imbalance in power. It makes them feel good. Unfortunately, that is why PvP will always be a niche game mode in MMOs, the simple reality is the vast majority of players don't actually like that kind of PvP, but the faithful minority is more than enough to keep it somewhat relevant.
Imagine saying everyone in pve content has to be balanced. Everyone does the same damage and is essentially the same level.
That's how a pvper feels in an mmorpg when you tell them you want complete equality.
You strip an entire community of the progression that comes with playing an mmorpg.
Plenty of games that are non gear dependant at your disposal.
You need a form of progression in an MMO or the player will feel unrewarded for their time. Imagine if PVE players were balanced and doing dungeons rewarded only tittles and mounts..... PVE players would cry and they would have good reason too.
Keep in mind progression PvP is popular outside of mmorpgs as well, league of legends, Smite, Valorant are all sped up progression games. You farm currency to have a gear advantage in a fight.
@@zealgaming8161 I really don't understand gow they can't see this strips us of pretty much all progression/content that an mmo provides.
@@HouseholdGuppies 1-New World Devs are NOOBs at games.
2-they listen too much to people demanding 'Equality' because Amazon has to keep a Progressive image and some Devs / moderators are Woke af.
3-they think this is what most people want because of a few loud mouths on their forum without even doing Polls to actually see what the majority want.
@@HouseholdGuppies Why don't you progress to be better at PvP lol?
This is why PvP in MMOs will always be a niche, its full of people who depend on gear to win even if they're bad.
I would argue that the biggest issue an MMO has with pvp is that they all try to follow the wow mmo format in the core game aspects of progression and play. This inherently prevents them from being PvP focused.
A PvP MMO would need to be designed from the groundup to be PvP in a perpetual multiplayer world.
Right now I'd say we dont have this and dont have companies willing to take the risk(for good reason cost vs little return) on trying new innovations.
There's Absolver. But nobody plays that anymore.
Thank you for your honesty, this is the kind of comment we need to make MMORPG evolve and not look like all those generic UO/Eq/tibia/Wow like approach of character progression philosophy who are just outdated at this point.
We have Albion Online that does it pretty well, and you should look at Into the echo, i'd say you'd be interested 👍
I always have to think about EVE Online when i hear people talking about PvP MMO.
Within a pretty high margin, if you know what your ship + equipment does and what the enemy's ship + equipment (you have to guess/look at the enemy ship to see the weapons) and play to your strengths and the enemy's weakness. you will win a 1 on 1.
Well.... or just bring a friend or two ;)
But those 1 on 1 fights are soooo much fun, since your ship and the equipment will be lost/looted from the enemy when you die. this gets the heart /adrenalin pumping like i never had in any other game.
ive always thought planetside 2 did something cool with the concept of an mmofps game. i just wish another company would come along and improve upon what that game has done.
Eve Online is fundamentally PvP focused and it doesn't use the normal WoW format. Through a lot of mechanics big and small you can pvp and be useful basically from the start. But most devs wouldn't take the risk trying to make another Eve
Battlerite is by far the most balanced pvp game, no pay2win, and its almost dead, i think ppl dont like balanced games, they just like to complain how their game is trash like wow or etc...
The fuck is battle rite
@@joshuasmith8080 Its like wow arena, but more balanced, no items, no pay to win, you dont need to farm or grind, just que and play. Would recommend everyone who want balanced pvp game.
@@slobodanlazic2127 Battlerite is like wow arena? you should be high, no ofense. Battlerite has none of arena logic, no setups, no DR, no big CD management, etc. Its pretty much closer to LoL than WoW pvp. But yea, its a cool game...
@@isaac4240 Name me other game that is similar to wow arena other then Battlerite? If they fully copyed the wow arena with all that you mentioned, Blizzard would sue them for copyright.
@@slobodanlazic2127 Oh, boy... If i only knew, i wouldn't be playing this anymore.
Guildwars was a good PVP Game, everyone had the same equip and it was just skillbased
that's literally why i quit gw2 the same day i tried their pvp coming over from wow back in 2012
Then there’s the third category where there’s skilled players with good gear that just wash everybody
That is not the third category.. That is Simply GOD Tier! LOL
Aion
Power increments in MMOs are a vestige of tabletop RPGs, used as a way to simulate what would otherwise be real player skill progression. But whether it’s click/tab targeting or aimed targeting, fast or slow tick rates, the player skill comes in their ability to manage the resources they are given to win. In a game like New World you are playing with a couple weapons at a time and three abilities. Your skill comes in by your ability to aim, and knowing how to juggle a few ability cooldowns and your health etc. In more traditional MMOs like WoW and FF14 your player skill comes from your ability to manage an ever-increasing swath of abilities, knowing how to target effectively. All of this is player skill.
So besides being a vestige of tabletop RPGs, why do we still have levels and spell progression? Only to 1) give the player a tangible sense of progress, feedback from the game that the time they’ve spent has been well put to use and 2) to gate off content in an open world without resorting to actual barriers.
I imagine in a level-less MMO something like a large open world FPS with a storyline. You can still gain new weapons and abilities but they don’t give you necessarily a power advantage just a tactical advantage. A player who just picked up Fireball 2 which does AOE damage now has a tactical advantage bc they can use Fireball 1 for single targets and Fireball 2 on multiple, all without necessarily making those spells do more damage as they progress. The progression comes from more tactics at your disposal and the skill is learning how to use them effectively (getting better at aiming and managing cooldowns and health). No need for power progression
This so much this yes please! Actually though why not? Now that I think about it, this is kind of how eso is a little bit, there’s still a lot of stuff that’s level gated, but they’ve removed a ton of stuff being level locked like as a level 10 you can go anywhere and fight anything only restrictions are dungeons really, it’s more about the exploration of the game, but of course pvp is a different situation but still this idea would be so amazing
@@joshuasmith8080 GW2 has relied on horizontal progression with its Masteries system since the 1st expansion. It has done some interesting things with locking zones behind non-level (and therefore non-power) abilities. Like in Heart of Thornes you unlock the ability to use gliding, using special tunnels, jumping mushrooms to get to new places. Path of Fire did that too with the different mount types gating off locations that you just couldn't reach. There are ways of gating off content more than just "you are too weak to fight the mobs here". If you take it a step further and totally flatten any power curve, you can use a system of horizontal skill progress like GW2 system to gate content, and the achievements system
This has other ramifications too, like putting the crafting system progression in this same Masteries system: you unlock smithing, then advanced smithing, and so on. Of course, this opens a can of worms: what are you advancing smithing FOR when there is little to no power (and therefore armor) progression. For making more durable gear? The gear system would be mostly about transmogs, so do people just smith for making transmogs?
This is sounds fine in principle, but the thing about RPGs is that players want to offload personal skill onto their *characters.* I don't want to have to raise my IRL dexterity score, I want my *character* to be a master of aiming and finesse. Numeric gear progression isn't "a vestige", it is literally the entire point. You want to play a fundamentally different game. That's okay, but don't mistake skill-based toolkit challenges as being fundamentally better than an RPG simply because you like it.
That said, I do have a different concern, which is: without numerical progression, you reach a point where the game's difficulty either entirely levels off for the rest of its life, or its content becomes nearly inaccessible to most players due to the extremely narrow margins of success and godlike levels of skill required to beat the new dungeon in a 15 year old game.
I think that gear should matter, but not in the way that most people think it should. I'm willing to bet most people think gear should matter in the way that if your have better gear with higher numbers on it, you should be more powerful by default.
I disagree with this. Gear should matter in a way that is determined by how you utilize it. Taking NW as an example here, Heavy armor gives you more defense but make your dodge really shitty. It also increases your CC ability. Meanwhile, light armor gives you a great dodge and increases your damage output, but isn't nearly as protective.
This is my idea of a good gearing system. You choose your gear based on how it affects your gameplay rather than just stacking raw stats so you can overpower other players.
but I also think that's a mentality that has festered in MMO PvPers for far too long: most of these players seem to not be interested in "Getting good", they just want to feel powerful and roflstomp other players with little to no effort or skill on their part.
Yeah because it's the mmorpg genre.
Your essentially saying you want pvpers stripped of all progression in an mmorpg.
Plenty of games genres out there that are non gear dependant, go play those instead of stripping a community of a huge aspect of the genre.
MMOs are inherently a power progression grind game. You play to get more powerful over time so it’s how it should be. Imagine in wrath you grinded for months did the hardest content in the game to get shadowmourne and then go out to pvp with it and it’s useless. That would feel like shit. Grinding for that all powerful weapon that very few have should make you feel epic and powerful. It should make you global the noob that only has 10 minutes to play a day. If he wants a fair experience than either grind for the items or play a genre of game balanced around being able to hop into a match and being on even footing.
Guild Wars 1 and 2 have it the best way possible, you can start a new character and make him a pvp one. You get max level,access to all perks and max gear where you can twink your stats in 5 minutes. By doing pvp you get rewards you can get in pve and even some more
Just make a PvP game about everyone starting with the same stuff and able to gain skill during gameplay.
And make PvE game about getting stronger, because you have to deal with the next environment that gets stronger as well.
Seems like an easy fix and solution to every game that wants to do both. Combining both is an easy miss.
The game cant grant skill. Most people gain skill over time as they learn. They are not referencing skill as in character abilities and spells
Mmo's should just have two pvp environments. A gear/level matched arena and full gear arena. Seems like having two environments would solve a lot of problems and allow newer players to practice pvp in a fun and constructive way.
Was going to say this.
A preset arena where you are all equalized to a certain level, with specific gear.
And then free-form. Let the endgamers completely trounce everyone.
This SOUNDS like a good idea, but would never actually work. The full gear arena would be used by literally the top 1% and then everyone else would use the gear/level matched. This would happen because no one WANTS to go into an arena to get 2 shot by their opponent, and that is exactly what WOULD happen in the full gear arena.
@@MrMirza86 and thats great. It would be really funny and people who want gear based pvp couldnt really complain without looking even dumber
Guild wars 2 has that . Arenas and world vs world respectively
1. Video games and MMOs particualarly were created to replace realty. For most people MMOs are their second life where the can be whatever role they wish to be.
2. Real life is very unbalanced, there is no sphere of life where you can find balance. Even "balanced" games are unbalanced when you think about it. Let's say chess, it actually require time to master it and even if you dedicate 1000 hours of your life to study chess, someone way smarter than you with less hours will still kick your ass every game you play.
Now if we consider 1 and 2 we can conclude that, taking away the immersion from MMOs will just kill them. A safe enviorment where everyone has the same stats, the same wepons, the same items and HP? This sounds dumb... And because of the nature of MMOs (level cap, limit of items, etc) there is a point in the game where everyone will become highest level, evryone will have the best gear and max health points - thus the game will become as much balanced as it can be... But nobody wants that, because everybody knows that this is dumb... This is why every MMO that have ever existed is making new content - new levels, new wepons, new in-game skills, because the game NEED TO BE UNBALANCED to be fun!
there's a concept going around about leveling up without PvPing so you can be in end game gear and max level so you aren't one shot or at a dire disadvantage. Well, if that's the case, why even have leveling in the game?
I believe this is why MOBAs exploded in popularity about a decade ago. There was no grind to the endgame. The game IS the endgame. This is why I think PvP scaling is needed. Because if your goal is PvP, but it's all but impossible while leveling up, why even bother having a leveling system in the game?
Yeah, that's what mobas realized quite early on. At least LoL did. They used to have levels which, if I remember correctly, gave you talents with minor upgrades in game. They also had runes which gave you some advantage. However, that's not really part of the game anymore, as far as I'm aware of.
For me, PvP where you win because of power is just garbage period. PvP on MMOs (almost) always feels like it's there just to check the "has PvP box". That's why I don't give a crap about PvP in MMOs.
16:20 I think the problem here is player like this just enjoy the fact that they can take advantage to others, and they didn't feel ashamed to do so. It is really show what is the problem of real life, people that don't give a shit to others, the system or law allow them to do whatever shit they want to the weak. Yeah, this world have no hope.
My all time favorite MMO Guild wars 1 I think had a great system, 1- they had multiple arenas. One for level 10 and below, one for I think 15 and below and 1 for max level aside from the other pvp game modes as well as the ability to simply create a max level 20 character purely for pvp. 2- gear mattered somewhat before max level but because you had a max level the pvp was still fairly balanced. 3- you only had 8 skills you could use at any one time, but you had some 1-2hundred skills to choose from which caused not only skill, but strategy to play a part in pvp.
No game is balanced though. Every game is building up your advantage until you can beat your opponent. MMO's are the same just on the biggest scale of any other game it's what makes the game unique. The only game that has a bigger scale than MMO's is the game of life.
I think balanced = player skill. Gear should be less advantageous. Everything should be more around skill.
This entire video highlights why GW2's PVP design is brilliant.
100%. Even the skill passives (traits) were unlocked at certain levels, to incentivize you to lev up while in the arena you had everything unlocked, minus some extra hp stat you could grind but hardly made a difference.
However, many pvp players want full open world pvp, which GW2 didn't have. Like, you couldn't just flag up and pvp in every map and bully people gathering.
I think Asmon's idea is really good for new world adding brackets where everyone is equal. I Will ALSO add to that a Ranking System Like Aion. But adjusted so that equally strong people gave the most points while people 10 levels lower than you would make you LOSE points instead. Or in a lower bracket. And it would be restricted not to affect Wars.
“Want more pvp, give better rewards…”
Yah destiny 2 finally fucking figured that out somewhat
New Trials is probably one of the better moves they made. Otherwise, it would have just kept dying until they removed it like they did in D1.
Sadly, the removal of SBMM definitely hurt the "drama" that he's talking about and leads to way too many mercies in most playlists.
Most People play weekly bounties and wait till next week.... Don't bullshit people
@@zentikk nah, most people do seasonal challenges and wait until next week. Bounties are useless when you can get to gm level just doing the seasonal challenges every week until gm’s come out.
This shit also makes me think of that one episode of sword art online where the thieves tried killing and taking that girls shit and the main character steps in and was just so much higher level than them that he was healing their damage and told them to get the fuck out before he one shots them all. That’s how I wanna feel grinding an MMO lmao
I have a story from initial classic WoW, when the world PvP was a thing. I was a lvl40 Warlock, attacked by lvl60 Warrior. And iirc another lvl40 Druid came to help me. And slowly and gradually, we actually barely managed to kill the dude through kiting and controlling, despite infinite misses and resists. Felt weird, like it was an actually balanced PvP experience.
GW2 should be the baseline for any mmo pvp system
? GW1
@@afrules9097 GW1 was better at it imho.
GW1 100%
From all the MMOs i Played, the best PVP I have seen is probably Guild Wars 2, you can hop there at lvl 1 and mop up players if you have the skill.
thats why its bad a lvl 1 beating a max lvl in an mmo?? lol
@@SNSTR It's more like pvp is an entirely different game without a progression system just slapped on to the core experience. When you are in pvp you are "not playing the mmo" anymore. When the dilemma requires you to go half the mile in either direction just make 2 different games. Think of GW2 like 2 different games sharing the same account and engine.
@@SNSTR You can go into a pvp match at level 2 and be competitive because there is no open world pvp in Guild wars 2. It is either Structured PvP or World vs World.(100vs100vs100). In structured PvP you will be upscaled to level 80 and the gear that is on you will not matter. You choose your stats via an amulet that you select from the pvp panel. PvP in Guild Wars 2 is purely skill based. If you lose a fight it is because you got outplayed. Not because you had 30 less item level.
@@SNSTR It actually is just a synched system. All pvp auto syncs stuff to max so it is easier to balance and work around. If a level 1 is beating a level 80 that level is trash or a bot
The problem wasn't pvp scaling, it was how it was implemented. It tried to emulate the damage a player of a lower level and stats would do to a player of higher level and stats instead of having both players with the same amount of stats for their class/spec. That was the problem.
MoP was the very last expansion that I played any sort of PvP content, back then I kinda liked it.
@John Stockton Played all classes in PvP, literally all of them and had a blast ;) altoholic.
PVP-arena sould be separate system where skills matter most. Open world pvp can stay the same.
i might be one of the few but as much as I enjoy playing mmos, I hate that time played is valued way more than skill. And (almost) every mmo has taken the philosophy that being skilled at your class means much less when compared raw stats.
I'm not advocating for a mmo that is ONLY skill based, but I would prefer that skill should matter much more that it currently does. And I am pretty sure that having reduced skill expression in a game requires you to limit the tools given to the player. Hence having more skill expression would probably lead to more interesting and unique class design. Just my 2 cents
You might like GW2 then, if you aren't playing it already. There are people trying to run raids below max level, which really hampers build diversity (as some talent trees are only unlockable once you hit level cap) and certain stat scaling (no top-tier or max level gear, etc.).
@@Keyce0013 im playing on Ascension now, but thanks for the offer
For all it's flaws the first iteration of PvP in everquest 2 was done pretty well. Each zone had a level range that dictated how far down you could punch, and as you got to higher level areas that range increased essentially making it so you only got ganked by a max level player if you wanted to.
Level and gear seems like a moot point though, as most MMOs try to have varied class identities which means there are inherent imbalances between the classes, regardless of power or skill level.
I will never forget in vanilla wow all the level 60s ganking lowbies in the Barrens or Terran Mill, knowing they had no chance to fight back and then running away whenever people of equal level came to defend it. It was literally just a power trip.
Played Classic for a while and never got to fight people of the same level. They're either running away and keeping distance or just not to be found anyways. But boy oh boy were there a lot of encounters with higher level players that could easily stomp me and camp on my corpse
@John Stockton both
Some of my fondest memories of wow. The absolute battles at tarren mill. Good times.
Killing or escaping a higher level player and succeeding even though the odds aren't necessarily stacked in your favor is a rush that no other genre of game can provide. The imbalance of power in an MMO is not completely about "leveling up to win every time" for everyone. The people who are obsessed with balance are projecting their own insecurities and fear of losing onto pvp mmo enjoyers with this idea.
I don't agree about the insecurity part. I'm not a super amazing player but I've got 2.1k+ on multiple characters in season 1 of Shadowlands so acquired the best gear. Playing BGs and absolutely destroying people, because my gear was simply better, was not fun, it honestly killed non rated PvP for me. My geared characters were gods, my alts were peasants, very rarely would you have a good fight that felt "fair" and fun. Arenas got kind of ruined as well until you get to 1800 where you don't really care about gear differences at that point. The arena gear progression is a big contribution to PvPers (casual or hardcore) quitting the game and it's nothing to do with insecurities. If anything advocating for unbalanced gear, especially for rated PvP, is people projecting their skill insecurities since their enjoyment lies in defeating weaker opponents by default.
If you want a PVP and don't want gear to matter, you're better off just playing Fighting Games. PVP on an MMORPG is built on a foundation of grind/commitment > skill.
Thats why they are all dying out. Maybe it should start changing. And make no mistake, non of the new MMORPGs coming 2021 and 2022 will even come close to WoW even in it's current terrible state. They will all die in 6 months.
A lot of games basically have pvp as an entirely separate game mode, with different abilities, different rules, different progression. This raises the question: if you had to make a whole separate game to have pvp in your mmo, why couldn't that have just been its own standalone game? The reason: because these separate pvp modes aren't given the same resources to be good standalone games and are doomed to be distractions and side content.
Josh really be farming those Asmongold Reacts.
Good.
So this guy is a Martial artist and chess player? What an absolute chad
Actually, I don't care for "unfair power differences". Open-world PvP in an MMO in my opinion is not about competition, it indeed is about using the power you have accumulated in the long term. Forcing some kind of fair competition in a game with clear power differences can lead to fun gameplay, but it's fundamentally weird. For fair competition, you have optional limited scenarios like arenas or just competitive games that are not MMOs. I've always found it weird how increasingly in MMOs, you quickly grind to a cap in PvE, until you become "PvP-ready", to be then able to compete equally. That's a weird way to build an MMO which in my opinion is about almost indefinitely accumulating power and progressing.
To make the power difference meaningful, the game world and risk-balance needs to be meaningful in way that makes it possible to manage the risks or getting beaten if you are weak, until some later point where you can start being more free able to protect yourself.
Balancing is part of doing PVE for awhile until you are strong enough to go PvP.. and not AS you begin playing
Nobody asks what's the point of leveling in a game where a lev 1 can kill lev 60s
I was really sad about the PvP changes made in New World for the open beta. One of the most memorable fights my husband and I encountered during the closed beta was us two versus a dude that was about 8-10 levels higher than us. So it was a 2v1, but with a HUGE level discrepancy, and the player was REALLY good with life staff + rapier, so he had a TON of sustain, and a lot of damage. It was soooo intense, cuz the two of us almost died several times, and we would have to start kiting away his damage, and spam potions on cooldown. My husband was also a life staff user, and with him healing me + potions + the beserk healing from hatchet, I narrowly escaped death SEVERAL times during the fight. It was a CRAZY long battle, but eventually we landed some cc (thanks to my husband's ice gauntlet) after getting the enemy to about half, and we managed to finish him off thanks to our coordination to blow all CDs when the CC hit. I'm really sad that there won't be any really epic PvP moments like that with the PvP scaling changes.
@@cattysplat Oh boy! I can't wait! -_- I'm hoping they revert the changes, but I doubt they will. So Sadge...
Josh Strife Hayes knows MMO's better than almost anyone, he's right. Thumbs up!
I’m not sure I entirely agree, at least from my own perspective. I’m an EVE player - the PvP is ever present, never fair, and often non-consensual. I do a lot of small-gang / solo stuff in an area that has a lot of try-hards who bling-fit their ships, but they are in no way unstoppable. Sometimes it takes the appropriate fit on your end to get them, sometimes it takes strategic planning with your group, but it’s doable and often the desirable thing to do because you’ll get their nice loot if you succeed. Smaller ships in groups can often take down larger ones, so even if someone wants to save the isk (in-game currency) and skill into something big, it doesn’t make them unbeatable. There’s counters for everything.
The MMO needs complex mechanics for you to evolve your techniques, at the same time you must have the stats with the advantage of time. This makes the player 10 levels below you more threatening, but not because of status.
i think many games are balanced in a way where high skill / badly geared players can win over well geared but bad players, however people usually think of themselves as better than the rest, so loosing means that it must be completely unbalanced
"That's just MMOs, MMOs are unbalanced so we just shouldn't ever endeavor to try to balance them." I mean...aight...I mean...we could just balance it though? This dude is admittedly arguing in favor of griefing, because imbalance is fun for him. Love you Asmon, but nah...let's just make the game balanced. Then it's better for EVERYONE.
And then right after even admits it gets boring so again contradicting himself, I don’t think he understands the point of the video
@@joshuasmith8080 how do you say that someone who is selfaware enough to know that what they enjoy is bad is contradicting themself?
You can tell he fully agrees with the video he watches. The video flat out calls him a bully and asmon literally says, YES to that.
You can enjoy a broken system but also want to fix said broken system. Cause said broken system is boring cause all you do is exploit it which over time just becomes common practice.
The title already man - the title.
Happens so often that "fun" gets nerfed. Not just in MMO's.
But yeah remember it happening way too often even in WoW alone.
Could also limit pvp to something like +/- 5 levels (can be higher or lower amount depending on the game ofcourse). There will be a powergap, but skill might overcome it.
Ex Blizzard devs left before WoW to make Guild Wars 1 to make a mmo where the pvp would be the main part.
WoW went the opposite way where level was of most importance.
The idea of balanced PvP in an MMORPG is an oxymoron, because an integral part of an RPG is progression and, I would argue, power fantasy. However, what JSH seems to be asserting is that progression is problem in an RPG that includes PvP, and therefore should be modified or removed. To me, that's almost like saying you like swimming but think water is problematic. I would say that if you don't like water, swimming may not be your best option as a hobby.
indeed. people are lacking on this perspective too much. They want the mmo genre to be fortnite -_-
He is arguing that pvp and gear driven mmorpgs are incompatible.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 I don't think that is quite it. He's arguing that progression driven gameplay (ie, a roleplaying game) and *balanced* PvP are incompatible, and for what it's worth he is correct. I would argue that if you don't want progression interfering with your PvP balance, you don't really want to play an MMORPG. What you want is a different genre of game.
MMO PvP was pretty fun (but definitely not balanced) during WoW Vanilla - the skirmishes at Crossroads in the Barrens are something I still remember today. Back then, the game still had lots of mystery about it, players were generally less-informed and it was really just for the fun - and the novelty of actually battling other people online as part of a 'group' (i.e. your guild or even faction). Even getting crushed by someone 20 levels higher than you on an epic mount was admittedly pretty cool because it made you want to *be* that player.
Not every MMO has to have PvP as a side thing. Game can be mainly PvP focused and have mmo progression as side gameplay. It won't cater to actual mmo players and thats fine.
so planetside 2, its a mmofps
Guild Wars 2 has the best pvp tbf its soooo much better than any other mmo out rn
hahaha you can see the forum full of people complaining about the pvp unbalance
Isn't it a zerg fest?
@@Stefo717 that's wvw, not spvp
Easy. Just split the two.
PVE => Gear-based progression and levelling.
PVP => Streamlined and skill-based, e.g. GW2.
WORST GAME EVER
@@liquiddude9855 Worst comment ever.
Yeap, exactly. Having fought in FPSs before playing *WOW* , the latter's PVP is in summary "easy mode". It's plain unsatisfying to see someone win, even for myself, simply by pressing a few buttons and let the gear stats do the heavy lifting. Real satisfaction comes from having understood the world physics and one's own weapon characteristics to pull off the perfect shot or trick moves. It is not enough to have a powerful weapon and sturdy armour. But of course there is no aiming in *WOW* .
You're basically describing Guild Wars 2 WVW gear and levels matter but skill and experience are king.
Naked Andy's shouldn't be able to spam into a game and just roll geared high lvl players. Pvp scaling invalidates all the time and effort that consistent players put into the game, one way that would be good for balance is make it so that the lvl and gear power curve isn't super aggressive but you still have progression. That way a skilled lvl 20 geared and a lvl 40 not so gear could square off. This problem is looked at the wrong way, It should be looked at progression vs power curve because that dictates all the down stream mechanics.
I grew in the age of "get your ass beat till you're beating ass".
Indeed. In MMOS it's a long term investment to gain advantages, even minimal like spending hours grinding for 1 HP.
It makes no sense that characters 10 levels apart do the same damage. A Fortnite style pvp doesn't fit into an open world MMO. Also, New world skill cap is VERY limited having just 6 skills. A META is easy to achieve and saves any trouble learning
I think New World pvp will die out in a month or 2. I don't see it lasting more with this scaling that invalidates leveling and progression completely. There is no point or incentive or anything to show off. I'm looking more forward to Lost Ark pvp. Friends played it and it's well-balanced.
Skill > gear in 100% of the time. That is the way it should be!
meh idk about that gear acquisition should always be important and not de valued in PvP
But my friends all quit tbc because they Dont wanz the grind for pvp gear before Same faction bgs!
@@user-co2fg4yp3i This. There is a balance that needs to be maintained. The people advocating for gear not mattering in PvP shouldn't be playing an MMO. Gear should matter in all aspects of an MMO. That's part of playing an MMO. If I want to grind for the best gear in game and absolutely blast people, I should 100% be able to do that. That's in the spirit of playing an MMO. Players get gear to feel stronger than other players. If you want purely skill based PvP... why play an MMO? Go play something else.
@@user-co2fg4yp3i gear should be about 10-25%... Skill should be the remaining 75%
@@therunningente6929 world of warcraft has NEVER been remotely close to balance. Pvp has always been the last thought on the developers mind and the game has never had that focus. Wow has always been, and always will be a PvE game with 5% PvP.
If you disagree, look at the last time they added a new BG. A new mode or even a map of the same mode.... Yeah. Compare that to the 10+ dungeons and 18-25 raid bosses an expansion.
As someone who grew up playing fighting games in arcades, PVP games with RPG mechanics never made any sense to me. It would be like playing a game of Street Fighter II or Mortal Kombat, where Player 2 gets nerfed to inflicting half damage, move at half speed, and can't use any special moves. The reward for playing hours and hours on a fighting game was you were just better than people who didn't. I saw plenty of newbs get wrecked by elite players within 10-15 seconds back in those days.
gw1,gw2,bns pvps are actually one of the fun ones. albion is also there if it wasn't a sandbox having 300ms lmfao.
I said this in the comment section of this video, and I'll say it again here, it seems disingenuous to compare competitive games directly to open world PVP in MMOs. The intent of Open World PVP generally isn't to be competitively balanced, it's to make the world feel more dynamic, dangerous, and real. The balance arguments make more sense if you focus on instanced PVP, like battlegrounds or Arenas. A single match of instanced PVP is more comparable to a game of something like chess, or a round of an FPS. An argument can be made that games where the whole world has gamified territory control elements should be more balanced overall, but that is because the intent of the world PVP becomes less about making the world feel dynamic and more about the whole world being a large scale PVP competition.
It's also flawed to act like the idea of lower levels being killed by higher levels is nothing but bullying. The possibility of being caught by high level enemies is part of the excitement of moving through a dangerous area. It can become part of the game experience that you need to plan appropriately in order to safely traverse the world. There are people who thrive on these environments. The idea that Josh doesn't like it is fine, he doesn't have to, but if every MMO made everything balanced the way Josh is advocating for then people who want a different experience then he does would have nowhere to go.
I don't think you've noticed but in medieval times, even armored knights could get killed by a random peasant with a pitchfork.
Just separate PvE and PvP in an MMO and make the PvP work completely on templates based on level bracket (stat wise, but keep their items)
I love how GW2 is exactly what these people are looking for but they have too many dumb misconceptions about it to know that.
Age of Conan nailed that pretty well, skilled players were able to kill much more geared "newbies" and gear still actually mattered ALOT
If gear didn't matter, there would be no point in playing a mmo
IMO, in PvP, gear shouldn't matter in terms of stats, but in how it affects gameplay. Like, heavy armor should make dodging more costly, but in turn makes you more tanky, light armor doesn't protect that well, but you should be able to pull a few more punches, since you don't get tired as fast. Two handed weapons should be slow and cumbersome, but with more damage, dealing damage in bursts, and light weapons should be fast weak, but dealing continuous damage, so in the DPS race, after a set amount of time, both dish the same amount of damage.
Blade and Soul had great PvP (in the beginning at least)
The only impact your progress had in PvP were some stronger skills, but the gear was balanced.
It was in an arena 1v1 or 3v3 i think. You could create a character and at level 30 or something that you could join PvP you just went ahead and PvPed like you would in end-game (minus some skills of course. You didn't have to grind all the way to end-game, get the best gear and min-max the shit out of your build just to experience skill-based PvP.
Then again, the lag was making this almost unplayable at times, but as a mechanic it was the perfect balance of PvP and PvE. There was always open world PvP where you would most likely get rolled by some beast player and other team arenas where the gear wasn't balanced, but the main PvP attraction was Arena (competitive, with rankings and rewards)
If not for NCSoft and the lag BnS was incredible.
Remember pvp template back in Legion? People hated it because gears didn't matter (or very little impact) in arenas.
Open world PvP is fine to be unbalanced. Organized PvP (arenas, battlegrounds, etc.) should be power balanced - but that also requires the classes to be balanced and they never have been in WoW.
Why shouldn't open world PvP be unbalanced? What counts is whether the structured PvP (BGs, arena, etc) are balanced IMO and I have no problem seeing the template or ilvl fix go in there.
But with Classic in mind for open world what makes someone better? Probably being loaded up on pots, bandages, engi bombs, etc, and that's on top of any gear differential. Who doesn't like the Pshero vids where two guys try to gank him but he stuns them, gets out of combat, eats, stuns them, bandages, takes one down to 20%, runs away, saps one, finishes the other... you get the idea. Was that skill? Or was that because he was overflowing with consumables? Does that mean to run around with bags full of consumes is skillful? I don't understand the point. Open world should be a sandbox, so unbalances will natural form. Artificially trying to balance a sandbox concept is just designing out the fun of a game.
Asmon doesn't realize that he's agreeing to what Josh is saying and is then explaining himself by saying the opposite
Asheron's Call had the best PVP of any MMO rpg, I've ever played. Darktide 4 life
They should make a system where players with a disproportionate level advantage say 5-10+ are ganking leveling players, they receive a bounty on their head that the entire server can see.
I haven't played WoW in like a decade at this point, but one of my favorite PvP memories from back in WotLK was just protecting some "sprouts" from trolls.
I didn't generally participate in PvP, so I didn't have any of the related gear, but I was pretty far into the current end game raid content.
The little gulch between Origrimmar and the starter village had an Alliance Warlock and Paladin decked out in PvP gear flagged and baiting the "sprouts" into attacking them.
I mained Disc Priest and had Shadow Priest offspec'd. Went shadow priest and managed to kill the Warlock and hold the Pally to a standstill till he gave up and ran away on my own.
Sprouts?
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 sorry, in Final Fantasy XIV new players are often referred to as "sprouts", they have a little icon shaped like a sprout so others are aware they're still new and learning.
Just make abilities do a % of someone's health in pvp. Easy to adjust for balance and you don't need the bollocks of different systems/gear.
Its sort of like how Ffxiv does balancing where abilities do a certain potency which scales off your gear in pve, and makes it so you always know which abilities do what type of damage.
Could work to an extent, but it negates health. It would be as if everyone has 100 hp and would cause either an imbalanced class or eliminate the need for classes all together. A system is needed and skills added to make classes compelling. I'm not saying it's a bad idea at all, it would just need a lot of refinement.
It makes no sense that characters 10 levels apart do the same damage. It invalidates leveling completely and negates progression, and advantages that players naturally seek. A Fortnite style pvp doesn't fit into an MMO. Note that I come from GW2 where everyone had the same gear. Just that passives were locked behind levels. What's wrong with reaching lev 80 and have full access to pvp?
You may argue that you can get better Skill-wise, but New world skill cap is VERY limited having just 6 skills. Just get a META, learn it, spend a few hours and you are done. How much fun you can have after that? How much more advantage? Anything you can learn?
New World pvp will die out in a month or 2. I don't see it lasting more with this scaling. There is no point or incentive or anything to show off.
If you want a high-skill based game, BDO is for you. Not in open world tho cuz the difference in power is just too ridiculous. Still, it's a game where you need many hours to be decent and hundreds of pvp hours to be good.
@@HashimotoDatsu It wouldn't cause imbalance or eliminate the need for classes. Idk how you came to that conclusion.
@@joshanonline you could do a higher % vs lower level, depending on the gap. Pretty easy solution.
Balance is the antithesis of roleplaying. I got into WoW because i liked the RPG aspect, clearing content and upgrading ect.
Arena and resilience did a good job of containing the people who want to play wizard counterstrike. So can't complain.
Yea PvP is hard to balance but the PvP in MoP 5.4 was the best PvP in WoW ever and was also the last time PvP was balanced.
I know some classes were a bit op like frost mages and destro locks but overall it was really well balanced
4:55 Serious truth bomb here. In fact, this bomb is booming so hard, that everything before and after this statement is redundant.
This...this right here. Is the biggest dilemma.
And we can't even blame them.
Asmongold, the thing is...nothing appeals more than power. We're hardwired apes and we can't help it.
The reason people win with skills, is because they chose that route to end up exactly where the whales and the gear focused noobs want to end up: in a position of power. It's not the journey that matters, even though we appreciate a nice one. But we're just as willing to grind hard, repeat the most boring shit, if that gets us there. Even though we like to convince ourselves that's not true.. it is. In the end, we all want the same: more power and status.
Some people are priviliged with money. Others with time. Others with good working brains.
It doesn't matter which privilige people have. They will always consider the use of their privilige THE way their game was intended to play. The other apes are always the false ones.
That's the nature of apes. We can't help it. And the more we try to simulate real life, the more prominent this behaviour is. And I wouldn't have it any other way:) I wouldn't be able to type this on my wireless minicomputer/phone, on my couch, in my awesome house, if it wasn't for this toxic masculine behaviour;)
Apes, together, strong.
Ooga booga brother
Monke
Reject PvP, return to Monkee
Look at lost Ark! Best MMO PvP I have ever seen. It's eSports in Korea and I'm sure it will be eSports in the west too
nope. people that want to turn new world into Fortnite ignore that completely -_-
@@joshanonline what the heck has this to do with my post :D?
@@Ar1AnX1x yea I can just confirm the lootbox policy in Norway is horrible.
Isn’t every game an esport in Korea.?
@@michaelscheppert3664 do you fart ?
Proper balance in any case, but especially PvP, is so challenging because it requires developers who can actually play at the highest level. Most developers frankly suck or are just "pretty good." If you had developers who were actually great at the game and weren't immensely biased to favor certain classes, then you could achieve balance. This should hold true for any MMORPG.
That's one of the (few) good things about FFXIV PvP, it's 100% based on skill and teamwork. Outside of buffs and debuffs two players playing the same job will have the same amount of HP, damage, crit rate, defense, all of those stats. At that point it's just about learning matchups, when to engage, when to disengage, and when to use your cooldowns, as well as how to dodge.
Typically there is a bit of a rock paper scissors. Melee beats Magic because they can approach and kill before Magic can get too many spells off, most of the time. Magic beats Ranged because they simply win the DPS race. Ranged beats Melee because they have the maneuverability and slowdown effects to kite melees almost forever.
@@paulogaspar8295 well yeah but thats still gear based. FFXIV has fixed stats and abilites.
It's way less about skill and moreso if you have teammates that know what they're doing. Also what are you talking about for the last part because that's def not ff14 at all XD
If i wanted 100% balanced pvp where equipments and level don't matter i wouldn't be looking for an MMO lol. Competitive focused MMOs are boring
Guild Wars 2 eliminates this "time invested = stronger" problem entirely lol
Yeah I think WoW should do the same thing tbh
@@restinginn9906 You say that, but they already have, and it was extremely unpopular and reverted much to the praise of the community. This is an MMO, gear should matter. If you want purely balanced PvP, play a different genre of game.
@@nimmer4749 No they haven't. They never did what GW2 did. WoW previously had PvP scaling and it was unpopular because of buggy mechanics where putting on better gear somehow actually decreased your damage output. What I want is what Guild Wars 2 has. You all have the exact same gear on, the only difference is what talent tree you invest in (so different builds are still possible) and your skill in the game. Even Asmongold says at the end "I don't really like it. It's just something I do for fun for 2 days and then I get bored" - So why advocate for something like this? It's not real competition, it's just a noob stomp ego boost. Also, that's an awful argument - "Just go play something else" - I happen to enjoy MMO PvP the most out of any PvP game I've played thus far but I enjoy it most when there is an even playing field.
@@restinginn9906 in Legion WoW had stat templates for every class which were removed in BFA. It was all literally the exact same as no one having gear. And Asmon argues for a middle ground, not a pure skill based experience, which I also am in favor of.
When Josh says "people want good gear to smash other players" he responds over and over with "YEP!" "ABSOLUTELY" because that's what people do in MMOs. They get stronger gear and do character progression to get more powerful. It's the entire point of the genre, and when an MMO goes out of it's way to make gear not matter, it's counterintuitive to the point of the genre. I do, in fact, think that if you want a purely skill based experience, why play an MMO?
Runescape does it very well. You can only attack people close to your level (unless you go into deep wilderness)
This isn't just a thing in MMOs, it's all PvP games. Look at how many players have complained against SBMM in games like Warzone. They get put in games with similarly skilled players and sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. But they want to get into games with people that they can stomp on because it's more fun.
Hey asmongold
The thing with open world PvP is that if you're gear and items don't have an effect then it doesn't feel like it's worth it to spend the time/gold/money getting better gear, but then people will cry that the game is unbalanced. This is the progression in MMOs, in competitive PvP games, progression is done through ranking up, everything is a level playing field and you improve your skill at the game. The best way to handle this in MMOs is to have standard open world PvP and then levelized (like all gear is equalized) arenas with rankings. This gives everyone what they want.
Games that focus solely on skill are really fun, if you get good at them. They are downright frustrating for new player though. A good example is Mordhau, you can get all the weapons very quickly and then it's a level playing field. But then you see Giru 5v1 and he kills everyone.
On the last point, in real life this is how the oldest form of competition, war, works. You don't fight a fair fight, you spend as much time and money as possible coming up with new and innovative ways to easily win. You're trying as hard as possible to show up to the fight with an unfair advantage, you want to ensure your victory before the first blood is drawn. This is how many people in MMOs feel, and how you get people to engage in all of the content. I want to win in PvP, so I'm going to go run this dungeon to get the best in slot gear, I'm going to contact a crafter to buy the best consumables, I'm going to spend gold upgrading my gear, I'm going to go farm mobs to level up, then I'm going to go and actually do PvP, and if I lose, I'm going to do it all again to ensure I'm as best equipped for the next fight as I can be. That's the thing, PvP in an MMO doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's not like a MOBA where the entire game is PvP.
Games don't allow for certain IRL buffs like a boxer training to hit harder. A boxer lifts weights, hits the bag - essentially grinds. Leveling his skill and his power at the same time.
The work around in-game, is to make people grind for better gear, therefore increasing power (gear) and skill (abilities, mechanics, systems)
You wouldn't see a day 1 boxer saying "This is bullshit, i dont wanna train for 5 years to be as good as a seasoned pro"
Yeah - they don't put beginners against pro's, but thats what the PVP brackets do. Arena brackets, RBG level brackets etc. There needs to be more work, but making everyone equal despite their effortis not the answer.
"They want to have that power difference."
I can say though: Earning a power difference through skill feels SO MUCH better than through time. But Wow does not give the opportunity to do that. Because a low gear score character will never beat a very high gear score character even if they play better.
I don't get why they don't include something like PVP tournaments into MMOs. The winners could even be announced server-wide every day etc. And in these tournaments the characters would all have to use the same gear so the fight is equal. You could still have open world pvp the same way it is now, but there would be that chance to look for "the BEST player" not "the best player with the best gear". I think that would also encourage a lot of casual players to play more WoW. Yes, you could just go to another game to play PVP, but why lose all these players to other games instead of fixing this?
Sport vs war. Sport is about fair competition, war is about being the most prepared and destroying your enemy. eSport games need fair competition, mmorpg’s are rpg’s and power fantasies. MMO’s are about time investment reward, play an FPS or fighting game if you want balanced and fair competition. Power brackets are a fair compromise.
Its MMOs, the whole point IS to get stronger, farm, PvE... Its designed to reward the players that devotes their time and sanity into achieving better gear, better weapons and higher levels. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Nothing is stoping people from going to an actual PvP game...
I think a big issue with New World specifically is that alot of the "hardcore pvpers" dont want to play New World. They just want to play a pvp game with magic and medieval weapons. I mean complaining about having to do the main story or pve in general in order to progress through the game seems kinda backwards.
Personally, I’m not so overly concerned with balance. Yeah, there are those that can kill you with one hit, but there is a certain sense of satisfaction, when you manage to kill someone clearly stronger than you.
See I'm the opposite. I think good balance lends to good game design. Balance allows for diversity in its player base as well. As in you won't see just the same classes running out in the world (or at least that's the idea). Would be boring if all you seen is warriors because of how unbalanced they were/op. For me a battle is more invigorating when there isn't a gear check. They tend to last longer then just one shot your dead, and require more tactics to win. It becomes more skill based rather then gear based or wallet based in the case of some games. And when you look at the pvp charts you will know that those people actually earned their place to be there. Balance also makes pvp more accessible as a whole. Ever play a a p2w game with pvp? Not particularly fun, at least for the vast majority. Balance still provides a challenge, or else everyone would be in the top 10 charts so there is still people and progress you can work towards who could be considered better then you skill wise. If you really feel the need to handy cap your self though I guess you can take off your gear...or just try fighting better players.
@@christopherdsuza324 Perhaps it depends on the game. Years ago, there was an MMO called Lunia, which had more action oriented gameplay. So even if one had P2W gear, you could still beat them, if you had the proper skill and timing.
Pvp is balanced around the fact that the player is 13. I was a gladiator when i was 15. Its for kids who wanna power trip.