When I was looking for a church as a young Christian, completely unaware of all kinds of branches of the churches, I couldnt accept any Western church, for they teach that doctrine. For I knew God, but they described a god I didnt know, their god is cruel god, that sends infants to hell, and some believe their god didnt give anybody freewill. I was baptized into Orthodoxy, but I was brainwashed to think Orthodoxy was heretical. But the more I dig into Orthodoxy, the more I see the God I know, and become closer to God. I am ready to attend the church now to confess my sins and receive the flesh and blood of Christ for the everlasting life he promised to us by his great sacrifice.
Can you show any official document where the "western church" teaches what you say it teaches? With all due respect, to save you the time, it doesn't exist.
@vivacristorey4363 Calvin didn't teach freewill. With the original sin, Luther believed that infants are born with the original sin and only by baptising them they could enter Heaven.
@@DohMkay Well, let's make some important distinctions here. As you show in your response, there are different sects of Christianity which all believe different things. Calvinism does not teach the same things about God as Lutheranism. So when you claimed that the "western church" taught this or that it can be a bit misleading without specifying which sect specifically. I am Catholic. And we believe in free will. As for unbaptized babies, we, just as the Orthodox, baptize both infants and adults to bring them into Christ's mystical body by the sacrament that He gave us - which does free them from original sin (the state of the world inherited by the sin of Adam). There is a difference between saying that God damns unbaptized babies to eternal punishment versus saying they might not be able to get to Heaven. There is nothing dogmatic about if they can get to Heaven - but rather that theology tries to work out the details. In modern times, the Catholic Church says (in the catechism) that God likely finds a way for unbaptized babies to get to Heaven in a way that is beyond our understanding. Before that the nondogmatic theology most believed was that unbaptized babies and righteous pagans went to Limbo. We really don't know. But the Catholic Church has never claimed that babies are damned to eternal torment; and it is bearing false witness to claim that they do. "...their god is a cruel god that sends infants to hell...' was what you said. Unless you can show a document of any sect of the "western church" saying any such thing, you are bearing false witness.
@vivacristorey4363 Catholic Church also believes in Original Sin. For a long time, you believed that unbaptised babies go to Hell and that also is thanks to Augustine. Now instead of admitting that this theology is ridiculous, for we do not inherit the sins of our fathers, you created some unbiblical and unfounded places where unbaptised people go after death. For we know at least one person who wasn't baptised that went to heaven. Its the man on the cross next to Jesus. For he repented without getting baptised. With God everything is possible. My post was about how deeply I disagreed with Weatern Churches. Even Calvinists now deny that babies go to hell even though their theology is much more Augustinian. I looked at them without bias, and following the logic of the teachings. Most Western Churches teach original sin. I am very opposed to this teaching, for I believe my God is righteous and just he might punish the generations of people for the sins of the fathers and mothers, like Adam and Eve, but he doesn't hold us responsible for their sins, for we weren't there, and how can we repent for the sins of Adam and Eve.
A loving God is something I don't understand being capable of sending someone who wasn't even born to hell. This conversation helped me feel closer to him. Thank you fathers
I grew up protestantsish, then my parents became Catholic, then I became disappointed in the conduct of the church. I then got associated with the Baptist church. But the older I am getting, I realized how great it is to hear other points of view. My rock is Christ, so I'm not afraid to come to the orthodox side and learn from these theologians. I honestly, I don't take the regimented stance of denominations, it seems they contain my might to look and test doctrine. But something that I admire of several orthodox theologians is the favor and zeal to stick to Christ above all things. I hope that in this age of darkness, that even major denominations are forsaking Christ and his teachings, that the orthodox uphold the faith in this part of the world.
As Saint gregory of Nyssa once said ”Let me tell you about the so-called ’Good things’ of this life. Listen to them: worries and pleasures, angers and fear, hopes and desire. What then is evil that has befallen your child, who died early and was spared by these many and so powerful tyrants?”
This video was meant to be Glory To God ☦️☦️☦️ as my daughter is really young 6years old but loves Jesus she is worried she will go to hell as she isn’t baptised yet, long story short the issue with that is due to separation as im no longer with her maternal mother and it ended quite badly, unfortunately the mother is spiteful and knows that it hurts me to get at me that my daughter isn’t baptised as my love for Christ is unconditional so all i can do is pray for for my daughter and her mother that may God have Mercy and forgive us all the unworthy sinners. Thank you for this video as i’ve had some sleepless nights as this is one thing where my heart aches where i want my daughter to receive the holy spirit during baptism 🙏🙏🙏
I am going to pray for your daughter to be restored to you also and pray that Christ comes powerfully in your life and in hers too, I love you brother and I believe God will take care of you
Why don't you have a priest baptise her? As her father, your spiritual authority over your daughter is greater than that of her mother, even as the Lord commands us to honour our father first then our mother.
May your prayer arrive at God's ears and your daughter will be baptized, as God put in the hears of the Babylonian kings who earlier destroyed the Jerusalem temple to be rebuild it again.
You can still baptize her. Talk to an Orthodox Priest about it and have no fear, Our Lord is with you and will certainly make it so that your daughter receives the Holy Spirit.
@akdobbertin You’ll notice it’s people with no blessing to teach from a priest or Bishop who claim that infants are damned. They are typically always piety signallers who want to make themselves feel more righteous by condemning infant babies.
Lets not worry ourselves with what the Lord knows, we can contemplate all we like. But the Lord knows our needs, he also knows what children can and cant achieve alone due to what ages far more than we could ever understand. Do not fret.
The ones promoting that idea are what my grandfather who survived World war 2, survived concentration camp, and survived Tito’s persecution used to say: “IF idiots COULD FLY you would not see the sky.” That is how I understand why people think babies go to hell. That is not the God I know. And if God did that which he doesn’t then I would become atheist. Blessings.
If parents are aborting their unborn- it’s a form of infant sacrifice for selfish reasons… the parents are choosing for their children. If people thought about this, they might reconsider murdering their own children. They aren’t sending the baby to heaven automatically. Still born babies can be baptized as soon as they’re born.
Fr. Panayiotis and Fr. Steven Ritter, thank you for sharing God's love. Also, as much as I enjoy Dante Aligheri's Devine Comedy, the Inferno , Canto IV offers no hope for any unbaptized, including infants. It goes on and on. Just saying, this work by Dante is hugely popular.
The thief at cross.... Did nothing to be worthy to reach heaven, but he enters along with God Jesus Christ. Everything is God's mercy and grace. Its only Love
It was shocking when some major platforms came out forwarding this kind of rigorism. I liked the comment about wolves in sheep's clothing, bad theology ruins lives :/
Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Ephesians, refers to the Eucharist as the “Medicine of Immortality” because we are receiving healing for our sins.
This was an excellent video. Very insightful. It complements his other lesson on Original Sin. It would be wonderful if Fr Panayiotis could do another and go a bit deeper into this topic and the way in which all orthodox jurisdictions of His Church came to this consensus concerning unbaptized infants. Thank you again!
Dear Blessed Fathers 😇😇 May God Richly Bless you both for clarifying such sinful idea ✝️✝️✝️ Our God IS INDEED a Merciful Loving God ✝️✝️✝️ Amen ✝️✝️✝️
Malachi 3: 23-24 Matthew 11: 13-15, 17: 11-13 It was a very commonly held understanding in the ancient world, which I believe was "declared" invalid at the 2nd Council of Nicaea. 325AD +/- So many of the Church's "mysteries" are solved/answered with an acknowledgement of its reality. Go east.
@@DontHateGod They absolutely do... IDK what Bible you're reading.... but if you want to believe that an all knowing and loving God would create an infant soul and then condemn it to an eternity of damnation because of a "technicality" feel free. I however have no knowledge of this God of whom you speak nor would I desire to seek intimacy with Him.
@@DontHateGod Chapter 3, verses 23 and 24... You do understand the difference between a "Chapter" and a "Verse" right? Go to "Chapter" 3 of Malachi (It's the last book of the Old Testament.) Now go to the end of Chapter 3... There you will find the 23rd and 24th verses. The very last two verses of the entire Old Testament. If your Bible doesn't have any part of what I've explained, then there is something wrong with your Bible.
Talking about original sin in a sense of corrupt nature of human, yes it is an inheritance. Because even though we are baptized and we are renewed in spiritual birth that doesn't wipe away the corrupted nature which we carry from Adam's fall that we are born with. Baptism doesn't save the person or let's say give immunity to not sin otherwise our freedom of Choice will lose its effectiveness. Therefore we need to seek God's mercy and pray not to fall into temptations of the evil one for as long as we live in this world we are tend to make mistakes and fall short of grace. Un baptized children on the other hand have the seal of their baptized parents so they share the union of spiritual inheritance through their parents.
Could you give a reference/source for that quote from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky? I would like to use that quote and reference for people who downplay this very problem of Latin Captivity.
I'd love a video where you discuss and go deeper into navigating/discerning this temptation to seek certainty in the writings of fallible yet Orthodox saints? Presumably the same people who go too far that way would tell us to more quickly dismiss your advice to the contrary. It is a great stress for new Christians.
@@MrOrangeonion i do 😭😭. The thing is I agree with the orthodox position more rather then infants being sent to hell when they haven’t been able to sin. They have a fallen nature but that doesn’t mean they should Go to hell without even doing anything
I have a lot of Protestant friends and family members who love Jesus but do not accept the authority of the ecumenical councils. some like to cite romans 3:4 as proof that we can't accept the historic teachings of the church. How can I explain to them the importance of these councils and the church fathers?
What about the Confession of Dositheos, Patriarch of Jerusalem, of 1672? In it, he specifically stated that infants must be baptized because they were under original sin and cannot be saved without baptism. This confession was ratified by Constantinople and all the other Patriarchates, making it the official position of the Orthodox Church.
This is not the process Orthodoxy uses to derive what believe to be dogma. It’s based on truth proven by reception from patriarch to grandma. If what you were saying is the way we derive dogma than we should be Catholic because of Florence and also accept all the pre nicean heretical councils. I would read Met kallisto wares excerpt on this synod
I am grateful for the effort and for the general discussion and opinions on this subject, but they did not definitely answer the question. What did the Holy Fathers and the Church say about this topic?
I would say they made it abundantly clear that children who are not baptized do not go to hell. Which was the question. The question is not what the Holy Fathers say but they did get into this a bit. It’s also worth noting that the Holy Fathers did not say much since it was not a huge question among the Greek Fathers. It was really only an issue among the Latin Fathers. So there is not much writing on the topic from them as it was for the West.
@@j2muw667 do u think creations( includes angels) is more powerful than creator!!!!? Godhead knew mankind will fall Godhead knew how to renew creation. Or restore everything. None will be lost.
Original sin is not a personal sin, but it does truely cause a deprivation of grace. Justification begins at baptism, it is necessary to restore the right relationship with God. Unbaptized infants are are not saved, but because they have no sins of their own face only the mildest of condemnation. Limbo of infants is the traditional position.
If the Protestants believe that unbaptised babies end up in hell, then why do they insist on only baptizing adults? Or this a distinction of the Baptist denomination?
Groups like the church of Christ typically teach that sin doesn't become 'alive' until you understand the law, like Paul taught (Rom 7). In other words, they believe we sin, but God doesn't hold you accountable until you have understanding of right and wrong. Not only does that seem biblical, but it is consistent with natural parenting instincts and the way we handle education, civil and criminal law. All of the household examples of baptism in the Bible never specify infants were baptized and in those examples, the baptized understood the gospel.
"In the western church" 2:02. There is no western "church"; I wonder whether Fr. Steven understands the Nicene-Constantinople Creed... Surely, he might just be using this term thinking that it's polite to call heretical denominations in such way, but it is a direct violation of the Creed, and as a priest he ought to be more careful. Words have meaning, and meaning is important. On the matter of infant baptism, it is true that no judgement should be passed regarding non-baptized infants' salvation, it is up to Christ to decide, but it is most definitely of critical importance to have them baptized, if possible, and that's why the Church (there is only One Church, the Orthodox Church) also accept emergency baptism in the air conducted by any Orthodox person (i.e., even outside the clergy) in cases where an infant is near death.
I am curious which line of the Creed is violated by saying "Western Church"? Honestly, I think you're engaging in a pedanticism that isn't helpful. English words have meanings, true. Frequently many and with multiple levels of nuance that needs to be taken into account. Yes, there is only one true Church, the Orthodox Church. On that we agree without reservation. By saying "Western church" or "Western churches" (small letter c; heterodox), we make a distinction from "Church in the West" (capital letter c; Orthodox). Just as St. Paul addressed the question of true and false Apostles, not by refusing to use the word "Apostles" of the fakes but by making distinctions between the true and the false so should we do about the true Orthodox Church and the false heterodox/heretical churches. St. Paul was a master of taking his wording from popular discourse and redirecting it to the Church's use. We should learn from that example. I have watched this issue be the difference between heterodox entering the true Church and rejecting it. By calling them "churches" (again, small c), if they are Trinitarian at least, we can acknowledge what they believe correctly and use that build bridges for them to get where we are.
He was forgiven by Christ whilst on the cross and entered heaven. He was not baptised. This does not mean baptism is completely unnecessary. What it means is that God's love and mercy is not restricted only to the sacraments.
the old testament law was not fulfilled yet, of the christ being risen, thus he died in the old law meaning he went to hades, he was the first to be freed because he was the last to leave this life with a righteous soul. he was the last of the old law.
No one knows if he was baptized or not - it is certainly possible, since “Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized” - but it doesn’t matter, for the reasons the others mentioned.
Beloved Mr Jones! Esq! I greet you! I congratulate you! A very evangelical protestant question masked as an innocent enquiry...mischief making at its finest! May I suggest you read Why The Good Thief Was Pardoned by St. John Maximovitch. Rejoice! Always!
And yet, the exception is always cited as if it is the rule. The thief on the cross is mainly used by the decision theologist to undermine the gift of baptism. Just stop proof texting. This is a bit more nuanced than just replying with the Thief on the cross. At best, this is type error. The two things don't go together.
Thank you so much for this edifying video!!! It is truly so difficult in this day and age to discern what is truly Orthodox teaching and what isn't. Thank you very much for helping us better understand, as well as to better ascertain, what we learn in the future to be the Truth. 🙏💕☦️🕊
Mogila's confession, signed by the 4 ancient Patriarchs says that unbaptized infants are liable to hell, and the soul Saturday liturgy says that unbaptized babies neither go to paradise nor Gehenna. I am not saying there isn't a way to explain out of this, but it can't be brushed under the table. Then we have the tradition of the innocents of Herod who are saints, meaning that if Baptism is necessary, God must have accomplished Baptism into his death on his own terms, or else that Baptism is not necessary. What is the official view of Mogila's confession in terms of canon law? Is it a tool that has some western errors? Is it the ecumenical dogma?
@@joseonwalking8666 I do agree with that. But the council rulings (Jerusalem) are often cited by opponents of Orthodoxy as being the continuation of the Ecumenical councils. I'd like to be able to give a solid, consistent, backed up answer about the Jerusalem council, and what is meant by "acceptance" of a document as a tool versus canonization.
Do not fret! It is not dogmatic or binding. The council was held by bishops trained by jesuits of course its Latin! Fortunately we do not find dogma this way but in the reception of a council by the whole church from patriarch to Grandma. Should this be considered dogma then Florence would also be as well as the pre Nicean heretical councils
Yes, he was, it is the teaching of the saints that he was in fact baptized with the water coming out of Christ’s pierced rib. Baptism is necessary for salvation for all human beings.
God judges sin. The Holy Spirit helps us see and discern. There is no formula or timetable on when starts counting against someone. There is only a life lived in Christ. We repent when we err, but that repentance doesn't merit forgiveness. God forgives freely, He always sees us exactly as we are, and He judges accordingly.
When you are grown up to realize it? . 1 Cor. 13 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known
In the Catholic Church, the age of reason is 7. This is when children have their first reconciliation and become able to receive communion in the Roman Rite. They also become bound to Sunday observance 🛐 and enjoy many other responsibilities of the faith 🙏. There are other Rites that have children receiving communion from as early as possible 🚼 (same as in the Orthodox Church), and I do not know when these other Catholic Rites and/or the Orthodox Church itself consider children to have reached the age of reason and/or consider them responsible for their sins (nor to what degree). A child who has reached this age of reason should, it follows, be eligible and encouraged to frequent the sacrament of reconciliation. It should be noted that just because children 🚸 reach the "Age of Reason", they are not considered culpable to the same degree that a full grown adult would be 👨⚖️. Indeed, the Catholic teaching on culpability for sin is quite nuanced, and many factors play into that discussion ⚖️. Surely this is similar to the Orthodox understanding. A note on mercy. Many mystics, saints, and bishops on the western Catholic front in recent history have dubbed our day in time an "age of mercy", with the mercy of God being put more squarely in focus, perhaps as a result of the all-too-common misrepresentation of God as an excessively or solely punitive ‼️ and exacting 🧐 God, rather than the one who in infinite mercy came all the way down, who emptied himself for our salvation. Surely he did not come to offer salvation only to the Sadducees and Pharisees yet leave behind the most pure, most vulnerable, and holy innocents 👼👶😊
Pretty sure it depends on the person. At least as I’ve seen it practiced in the church some children can start confession earlier than others. So I’m sure the reverse is true as well
Blessed Augustine drew false conclusions from Psalm 50(51) verse 7. Being conceived in iniquity may have been true for David as it was certainly true for his infant son born to Bathsheba. But to apply this to all humanity and draw a conclusion about the souls of unbaptized babies is an example of Western rationalism run amok.
The phrase, "in sin did my mother conceive me" does not refer to the act by which conception happens. Rather, it refers to how the whole of creation is infected by sin so that, as Job says, no man can be without sin (i.e. apart from, or separated from sin) even if his life on earth is but a single day.
Does that justify abortion then since God would have mercy on them i’m not trying to be argumentative I have a problem believing in original sin inheritance but I also believe there is a moral reason to be against abortion
@@joseonwalking8666 I’m talking about for the child not for the person they could justify it as an act of self sacrifice. I’m looking for something to use for truth to fight against this yes, it is a sin against God
@@samuelk2674 God says it's wrong so therefore, there is no justification. Jessica, some human version could use flawed. Human reasoning to try and come up with an excuse. Doesn't make it an excuse.
@@joseonwalking8666 Yes I understand it is wrong. My point is why they shouldn’t do it if they do not care what happens to them then why shouldn’t they? That’s my point I’m not trying to give them an excuse. I’m trying to get to the root of the issue so that they won’t do this.
@@samuelk2674if you don't care about the consequences to the baby then you have no reason to care. But if they are omcerned about themselves it's a sin to kill a baby but it's not a sin to die as a baby.
I'm sorry, but you are misunderstanding what the "western" view on the matter is. Roman Catholics share the same view as Eastern Byzantine Catholics. Original sin simply means inheriting the unfortunate result of Adam's sin. We are not judged eternally for something that we did not do ourselves. That is the difference between original vs actual sin. It really bothers me when people speak of Christian sects that differ from their own and spread misleading falsehoods about it. The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives us the basic teachings of our faith. Nowhere in there does it mention infants without baptism being damned. What nonsense. There is an ancient theology about the Limbo of the Infants, which is considered a natural paradise - similar to the Limbo of the Fathers. This theological concept is not mainstream today, but even when it was, there was nothing about infants being punished. So instead of blaming what you call the western Church, stick instead to condemning error and corrupt teachings with the truth. It makes no sense to speak against a corruption of the faith by spreading other errors. God bless.
St Thomas Aquinas classes both the limbo of the Fathers and the limbo of the infants as parts of hell. They are states of the soul where it is separated from the perfect love of God. In the case of the infants, it is because they suffer the effect of Adam's sin without knowing why. In the case of the Fathers, they knew why they were there. Yet in both cases, their souls long to be united with God, and so their states are the same in that way, which is why both are called limbo.
@@Ggdivhjkjl The damned don't long to be united with God. So it makes sense, that even though Limbo can be described as part of Hell, that it is not where the damned go. Thank you for enlightening us. God bless.
@@MangyPL Yes, of course a papist: just like the early Church Fathers and the Apostles. "Limbo is Hell" you say? Let's break that down. "Hell" has multiple meanings which is why distinctions are necessary. So by "Hell", you seem to mean the general abode of the dead of those who are not in Heaven. Yes then, both the Limbo of the Fathers in the old testament and the Limbo of the Infants in the new covenant would be in the abode of Hell. But you are wrong to say that it is Hell in the sense that it is one section of Hell. And it is of course important to mention that Limbo is not a place where damned souls go, whether you call it part of Hell or not. So again, it comes back to the same issue: Catholics don't and never have believed that unbaptized babies are damned. God bless.
@@danielvranceanu8751 Please go through the greek term which is used for punishment and eternal in new testament. Please try to find out what's their meaning,
@@danielvranceanu8751 if an omniscient God knew , man will not repent or reject his word/ gospel, (before his creation), what is the purpose of creation? ? ?
When I was looking for a church as a young Christian, completely unaware of all kinds of branches of the churches, I couldnt accept any Western church, for they teach that doctrine. For I knew God, but they described a god I didnt know, their god is cruel god, that sends infants to hell, and some believe their god didnt give anybody freewill. I was baptized into Orthodoxy, but I was brainwashed to think Orthodoxy was heretical. But the more I dig into Orthodoxy, the more I see the God I know, and become closer to God. I am ready to attend the church now to confess my sins and receive the flesh and blood of Christ for the everlasting life he promised to us by his great sacrifice.
Welcome back ☺️☦️
Can you show any official document where the "western church" teaches what you say it teaches? With all due respect, to save you the time, it doesn't exist.
@vivacristorey4363 Calvin didn't teach freewill. With the original sin, Luther believed that infants are born with the original sin and only by baptising them they could enter Heaven.
@@DohMkay Well, let's make some important distinctions here. As you show in your response, there are different sects of Christianity which all believe different things. Calvinism does not teach the same things about God as Lutheranism. So when you claimed that the "western church" taught this or that it can be a bit misleading without specifying which sect specifically.
I am Catholic. And we believe in free will. As for unbaptized babies, we, just as the Orthodox, baptize both infants and adults to bring them into Christ's mystical body by the sacrament that He gave us - which does free them from original sin (the state of the world inherited by the sin of Adam).
There is a difference between saying that God damns unbaptized babies to eternal punishment versus saying they might not be able to get to Heaven. There is nothing dogmatic about if they can get to Heaven - but rather that theology tries to work out the details. In modern times, the Catholic Church says (in the catechism) that God likely finds a way for unbaptized babies to get to Heaven in a way that is beyond our understanding. Before that the nondogmatic theology most believed was that unbaptized babies and righteous pagans went to Limbo. We really don't know. But the Catholic Church has never claimed that babies are damned to eternal torment; and it is bearing false witness to claim that they do. "...their god is a cruel god that sends infants to hell...' was what you said. Unless you can show a document of any sect of the "western church" saying any such thing, you are bearing false witness.
@vivacristorey4363 Catholic Church also believes in Original Sin. For a long time, you believed that unbaptised babies go to Hell and that also is thanks to Augustine. Now instead of admitting that this theology is ridiculous, for we do not inherit the sins of our fathers, you created some unbiblical and unfounded places where unbaptised people go after death. For we know at least one person who wasn't baptised that went to heaven. Its the man on the cross next to Jesus. For he repented without getting baptised. With God everything is possible. My post was about how deeply I disagreed with Weatern Churches. Even Calvinists now deny that babies go to hell even though their theology is much more Augustinian.
I looked at them without bias, and following the logic of the teachings. Most Western Churches teach original sin. I am very opposed to this teaching, for I believe my God is righteous and just he might punish the generations of people for the sins of the fathers and mothers, like Adam and Eve, but he doesn't hold us responsible for their sins, for we weren't there, and how can we repent for the sins of Adam and Eve.
I absolutely adore Fr Panayiotis. Thank you both for this wonderful teaching of God's truth.
A loving God is something I don't understand being capable of sending someone who wasn't even born to hell. This conversation helped me feel closer to him. Thank you fathers
I love the compassion in your voices❤
I grew up protestantsish, then my parents became Catholic, then I became disappointed in the conduct of the church. I then got associated with the Baptist church. But the older I am getting, I realized how great it is to hear other points of view. My rock is Christ, so I'm not afraid to come to the orthodox side and learn from these theologians. I honestly, I don't take the regimented stance of denominations, it seems they contain my might to look and test doctrine. But something that I admire of several orthodox theologians is the favor and zeal to stick to Christ above all things. I hope that in this age of darkness, that even major denominations are forsaking Christ and his teachings, that the orthodox uphold the faith in this part of the world.
Thank you Fathers! The question is very important in our days, since whole populations of children die already in their mothers' womb.
As Saint gregory of Nyssa once said
”Let me tell you about the so-called ’Good things’ of this life. Listen to them: worries and pleasures, angers and fear, hopes and desire. What then is evil that has befallen your child, who died early and was spared by these many and so powerful tyrants?”
This video was meant to be Glory To God ☦️☦️☦️ as my daughter is really young 6years old but loves Jesus she is worried she will go to hell as she isn’t baptised yet, long story short the issue with that is due to separation as im no longer with her maternal mother and it ended quite badly, unfortunately the mother is spiteful and knows that it hurts me to get at me that my daughter isn’t baptised as my love for Christ is unconditional so all i can do is pray for for my daughter and her mother that may God have Mercy and forgive us all the unworthy sinners. Thank you for this video as i’ve had some sleepless nights as this is one thing where my heart aches where i want my daughter to receive the holy spirit during baptism 🙏🙏🙏
I am going to pray for your daughter to be restored to you also and pray that Christ comes powerfully in your life and in hers too, I love you brother and I believe God will take care of you
Pray for her fervently, and pray to the saints and angels to stay close to her. Your prayers will be her light in a dark path.
Why don't you have a priest baptise her? As her father, your spiritual authority over your daughter is greater than that of her mother, even as the Lord commands us to honour our father first then our mother.
May your prayer arrive at God's ears and your daughter will be baptized, as God put in the hears of the Babylonian kings who earlier destroyed the Jerusalem temple to be rebuild it again.
You can still baptize her. Talk to an Orthodox Priest about it and have no fear, Our Lord is with you and will certainly make it so that your daughter receives the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for this video Fathers. I was disgusted by the enthusiasm a lot of online Orthodox figures had arguing for babies to be in hell, despicable
They aren't figures. Just nobodies that think they are theologians
@akdobbertin You’ll notice it’s people with no blessing to teach from a priest or Bishop who claim that infants are damned. They are typically always piety signallers who want to make themselves feel more righteous by condemning infant babies.
@@Trisagionfilms
Tell it how it is ☦️
Christ made it very clear that you need to become like children to enter his kingdom.
Lets not worry ourselves with what the Lord knows, we can contemplate all we like.
But the Lord knows our needs, he also knows what children can and cant achieve alone due to what ages far more than we could ever understand.
Do not fret.
love hearing them speak God bless the internet
The ones promoting that idea are what my grandfather who survived World war 2, survived concentration camp, and survived Tito’s persecution used to say: “IF idiots COULD FLY you would not see the sky.”
That is how I understand why people think babies go to hell. That is not the God I know. And if God did that which he doesn’t then I would become atheist. Blessings.
If parents are aborting their unborn- it’s a form of infant sacrifice for selfish reasons… the parents are choosing for their children.
If people thought about this, they might reconsider murdering their own children. They aren’t sending the baby to heaven automatically.
Still born babies can be baptized as soon as they’re born.
Fr. Panayiotis and Fr. Steven Ritter, thank you for sharing God's love.
Also, as much as I enjoy Dante Aligheri's Devine Comedy, the Inferno , Canto IV offers no hope for any unbaptized, including infants. It goes on and on.
Just saying, this work by Dante is hugely popular.
God is only Love.. Agape... Unconditional love
The thief at cross....
Did nothing to be worthy to reach heaven, but he enters along with God Jesus Christ.
Everything is God's mercy and grace. Its only Love
He ‘confessed’ to Jesus before his death.
Received absolution from God… kind of received ‘last rites’ as well.
@@j2muw667 any valid source
It was shocking when some major platforms came out forwarding this kind of rigorism. I liked the comment about wolves in sheep's clothing, bad theology ruins lives :/
Who has started pushing this errored theology?
Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Ephesians, refers to the Eucharist as the “Medicine of Immortality” because we are receiving healing for our sins.
God bless you! KEEP THE GOOD WORK UP!!
Thank you!
Jesus of Nazareth bless you, thank you and much love to you.
Jesus love babies and kids more than anything
Its absolute nonsense to think that babies baptized or unbaptized babies go to hell.
It'd what the Church teaches
The Lord Himself tells us that the kingdom of God is for the little ones!
This was an excellent video. Very insightful. It complements his other lesson on Original Sin.
It would be wonderful if Fr Panayiotis could do another and go a bit deeper into this topic and the way in which all orthodox jurisdictions of His Church came to this consensus concerning unbaptized infants.
Thank you again!
Very blessed❤❤☦️
Dear Blessed Fathers 😇😇
May God Richly Bless you both for clarifying such sinful idea ✝️✝️✝️ Our God IS INDEED a Merciful Loving God ✝️✝️✝️
Amen ✝️✝️✝️
Great talk
Malachi 3: 23-24
Matthew 11: 13-15, 17: 11-13
It was a very commonly held understanding in the ancient world, which I believe was "declared" invalid at the 2nd Council of Nicaea. 325AD +/-
So many of the Church's "mysteries" are solved/answered with an acknowledgement of its reality. Go east.
Those verses don't exist
@@DontHateGod They absolutely do... IDK what Bible you're reading....
but if you want to believe that an all knowing and loving God would create an infant soul
and then condemn it to an eternity of damnation because of a "technicality" feel free.
I however have no knowledge of this God of whom you speak nor would I desire to seek intimacy with Him.
@@spg77777 I domt believe that and neither do these people im just stating machi 3 or any chapter of malachi lacks 20+ chapters
@@DontHateGod Chapter 3, verses 23 and 24...
You do understand the difference between a "Chapter" and a "Verse" right?
Go to "Chapter" 3 of Malachi (It's the last book of the Old Testament.)
Now go to the end of Chapter 3... There you will find the 23rd and 24th verses. The very last two verses of the entire Old Testament.
If your Bible doesn't have any part of what I've explained, then there is something wrong with your Bible.
@@spg77777 Malachi chapter 3 is only 17 verses
Talking about original sin in a sense of corrupt nature of human, yes it is an inheritance. Because even though we are baptized and we are renewed in spiritual birth that doesn't wipe away the corrupted nature which we carry from Adam's fall that we are born with. Baptism doesn't save the person or let's say give immunity to not sin otherwise our freedom of Choice will lose its effectiveness. Therefore we need to seek God's mercy and pray not to fall into temptations of the evil one for as long as we live in this world we are tend to make mistakes and fall short of grace.
Un baptized children on the other hand have the seal of their baptized parents so they share the union of spiritual inheritance through their parents.
I trust the lord is merciful
Of course they don’t. Anyone who believes that is delusional.
Please add Czech subtitles... 😉
Thank you very much.
God bless you! ☦️
Could you give a reference/source for that quote from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky? I would like to use that quote and reference for people who downplay this very problem of Latin Captivity.
Faith ,hope and Love exist ...untill resurrection
I'd love a video where you discuss and go deeper into navigating/discerning this temptation to seek certainty in the writings of fallible yet Orthodox saints? Presumably the same people who go too far that way would tell us to more quickly dismiss your advice to the contrary. It is a great stress for new Christians.
I love your films your channel is very hselp full god bless
Have you read Council of Jerusalem 1672? I am actually curious about this. Do you think this view is reconcilable with what that council says?
Yes. Also 1672 had some issues.
It’s pretty messed up to think God being omniscient and all would punish an Infant for dying
In your Bible , Jesus says when it comes to SIN, that you will be in big trouble if you hurt ' one of these", meaning any children, that are innocent.
@@johntsirakidis9544 True, but i think the guy youre replying to doesnt believe in God.
We don’t say that..
@@MrOrangeonion i do 😭😭.
The thing is I agree with the orthodox position more rather then infants being sent to hell when they haven’t been able to sin.
They have a fallen nature but that doesn’t mean they should Go to hell without even doing anything
@@Gady______ so your god puts kids in his her made up hell?
thank you
Crisis Rising from the Dead
I have a lot of Protestant friends and family members who love Jesus but do not accept the authority of the ecumenical councils. some like to cite romans 3:4 as proof that we can't accept the historic teachings of the church. How can I explain to them the importance of these councils and the church fathers?
Answer is @13:15 and it's a NO
What about the Confession of Dositheos, Patriarch of Jerusalem, of 1672? In it, he specifically stated that infants must be baptized because they were under original sin and cannot be saved without baptism. This confession was ratified by Constantinople and all the other Patriarchates, making it the official position of the Orthodox Church.
This is not the process Orthodoxy uses to derive what believe to be dogma. It’s based on truth proven by reception from patriarch to grandma. If what you were saying is the way we derive dogma than we should be Catholic because of Florence and also accept all the pre nicean heretical councils. I would read Met kallisto wares excerpt on this synod
I am grateful for the effort and for the general discussion and opinions on this subject, but they did not definitely answer the question. What did the Holy Fathers and the Church say about this topic?
I would say they made it abundantly clear that children who are not baptized do not go to hell. Which was the question. The question is not what the Holy Fathers say but they did get into this a bit. It’s also worth noting that the Holy Fathers did not say much since it was not a huge question among the Greek Fathers. It was really only an issue among the Latin Fathers. So there is not much writing on the topic from them as it was for the West.
Love it!
Kolasis Aionios greek term for eternal punishment ,plato and socrates says it means corrective punishment.
None of the creation will be lost.
That’s what the deceiver wants everyone to think, so they don’t turn away from the ways of the world.
@@j2muw667 do u think creations( includes angels) is more powerful than creator!!!!?
Godhead knew mankind will fall
Godhead knew how to renew creation. Or restore everything.
None will be lost.
Original sin is not a personal sin, but it does truely cause a deprivation of grace. Justification begins at baptism, it is necessary to restore the right relationship with God. Unbaptized infants are are not saved, but because they have no sins of their own face only the mildest of condemnation. Limbo of infants is the traditional position.
If the Protestants believe that unbaptised babies end up in hell, then why do they insist on only baptizing adults? Or this a distinction of the Baptist denomination?
Its denominational thing
Groups like the church of Christ typically teach that sin doesn't become 'alive' until you understand the law, like Paul taught (Rom 7). In other words, they believe we sin, but God doesn't hold you accountable until you have understanding of right and wrong.
Not only does that seem biblical, but it is consistent with natural parenting instincts and the way we handle education, civil and criminal law.
All of the household examples of baptism in the Bible never specify infants were baptized and in those examples, the baptized understood the gospel.
"In the western church" 2:02. There is no western "church"; I wonder whether Fr. Steven understands the Nicene-Constantinople Creed... Surely, he might just be using this term thinking that it's polite to call heretical denominations in such way, but it is a direct violation of the Creed, and as a priest he ought to be more careful. Words have meaning, and meaning is important.
On the matter of infant baptism, it is true that no judgement should be passed regarding non-baptized infants' salvation, it is up to Christ to decide, but it is most definitely of critical importance to have them baptized, if possible, and that's why the Church (there is only One Church, the Orthodox Church) also accept emergency baptism in the air conducted by any Orthodox person (i.e., even outside the clergy) in cases where an infant is near death.
I am curious which line of the Creed is violated by saying "Western Church"? Honestly, I think you're engaging in a pedanticism that isn't helpful. English words have meanings, true. Frequently many and with multiple levels of nuance that needs to be taken into account.
Yes, there is only one true Church, the Orthodox Church. On that we agree without reservation. By saying "Western church" or "Western churches" (small letter c; heterodox), we make a distinction from "Church in the West" (capital letter c; Orthodox). Just as St. Paul addressed the question of true and false Apostles, not by refusing to use the word "Apostles" of the fakes but by making distinctions between the true and the false so should we do about the true Orthodox Church and the false heterodox/heretical churches. St. Paul was a master of taking his wording from popular discourse and redirecting it to the Church's use. We should learn from that example.
I have watched this issue be the difference between heterodox entering the true Church and rejecting it. By calling them "churches" (again, small c), if they are Trinitarian at least, we can acknowledge what they believe correctly and use that build bridges for them to get where we are.
We are not alone, God is with us ☦️🙏💪
❤🔥🔥❄🤗✌👩❤👨🧣⛸️💪🕊🙏✝GOD BLESS ☦️🙏💒🌟👨👩👧👦☃🛷🫶🎄🚨💋🙌💯❤
Strange question.. but didn’t women get married at that age or younger?.. raises a lot of questions..
They are talking about infants... new borns or babies that havent left the womb yet.
What happened to the thief who was next to Jesus on the cross ??? Was he baptised ???
He was forgiven by Christ whilst on the cross and entered heaven. He was not baptised.
This does not mean baptism is completely unnecessary. What it means is that God's love and mercy is not restricted only to the sacraments.
the old testament law was not fulfilled yet, of the christ being risen, thus he died in the old law meaning he went to hades, he was the first to be freed because he was the last to leave this life with a righteous soul. he was the last of the old law.
No one knows if he was baptized or not - it is certainly possible, since “Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized” - but it doesn’t matter, for the reasons the others mentioned.
Beloved Mr Jones! Esq! I greet you! I congratulate you! A very evangelical protestant question masked as an innocent enquiry...mischief making at its finest! May I suggest you read Why The Good Thief Was Pardoned by St. John Maximovitch. Rejoice! Always!
And yet, the exception is always cited as if it is the rule. The thief on the cross is mainly used by the decision theologist to undermine the gift of baptism.
Just stop proof texting. This is a bit more nuanced than just replying with the Thief on the cross. At best, this is type error. The two things don't go together.
Thank you so much for this edifying video!!! It is truly so difficult in this day and age to discern what is truly Orthodox teaching and what isn't. Thank you very much for helping us better understand, as well as to better ascertain, what we learn in the future to be the Truth. 🙏💕☦️🕊
Wow. That description about the babies in that sermon. Made me angry. It's good I wasn't there because even now hearing that I'm tempted to anger.
What made you angry exactly?
@Trisagionfilms the fact that they accused innocent children. Not our fathers the pastor they were talking about.
Mogila's confession, signed by the 4 ancient Patriarchs says that unbaptized infants are liable to hell, and the soul Saturday liturgy says that unbaptized babies neither go to paradise nor Gehenna. I am not saying there isn't a way to explain out of this, but it can't be brushed under the table. Then we have the tradition of the innocents of Herod who are saints, meaning that if Baptism is necessary, God must have accomplished Baptism into his death on his own terms, or else that Baptism is not necessary. What is the official view of Mogila's confession in terms of canon law? Is it a tool that has some western errors? Is it the ecumenical dogma?
Mogila is not dogmatic. Our praxis is and the life of the church. The ecumencial councils and the life of the church.
@@joseonwalking8666 I do agree with that. But the council rulings (Jerusalem) are often cited by opponents of Orthodoxy as being the continuation of the Ecumenical councils. I'd like to be able to give a solid, consistent, backed up answer about the Jerusalem council, and what is meant by "acceptance" of a document as a tool versus canonization.
Do not fret! It is not dogmatic or binding. The council was held by bishops trained by jesuits of course its Latin! Fortunately we do not find dogma this way but in the reception of a council by the whole church from patriarch to Grandma. Should this be considered dogma then Florence would also be as well as the pre Nicean heretical councils
YES ALL PARENT ASK INFRONT OF GOD BY HIS WORK TO CHILD!
Was the theif on the cross baptized?
It doesn’t say, but probably not.
Yes, he was, it is the teaching of the saints that he was in fact baptized with the water coming out of Christ’s pierced rib.
Baptism is necessary for salvation for all human beings.
When does one become accountable to God for their sins? Is there an age of accountability?
God judges sin. The Holy Spirit helps us see and discern. There is no formula or timetable on when starts counting against someone. There is only a life lived in Christ. We repent when we err, but that repentance doesn't merit forgiveness. God forgives freely, He always sees us exactly as we are, and He judges accordingly.
When you are grown up to realize it? .
1 Cor. 13 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known
@@ironyusa3885Amen
In the Catholic Church, the age of reason is 7. This is when children have their first reconciliation and become able to receive communion in the Roman Rite. They also become bound to Sunday observance 🛐 and enjoy many other responsibilities of the faith 🙏. There are other Rites that have children receiving communion from as early as possible 🚼 (same as in the Orthodox Church), and I do not know when these other Catholic Rites and/or the Orthodox Church itself consider children to have reached the age of reason and/or consider them responsible for their sins (nor to what degree). A child who has reached this age of reason should, it follows, be eligible and encouraged to frequent the sacrament of reconciliation.
It should be noted that just because children 🚸 reach the "Age of Reason", they are not considered culpable to the same degree that a full grown adult would be 👨⚖️. Indeed, the Catholic teaching on culpability for sin is quite nuanced, and many factors play into that discussion ⚖️. Surely this is similar to the Orthodox understanding.
A note on mercy. Many mystics, saints, and bishops on the western Catholic front in recent history have dubbed our day in time an "age of mercy", with the mercy of God being put more squarely in focus, perhaps as a result of the all-too-common misrepresentation of God as an excessively or solely punitive ‼️ and exacting 🧐 God, rather than the one who in infinite mercy came all the way down, who emptied himself for our salvation. Surely he did not come to offer salvation only to the Sadducees and Pharisees yet leave behind the most pure, most vulnerable, and holy innocents 👼👶😊
Pretty sure it depends on the person. At least as I’ve seen it practiced in the church some children can start confession earlier than others. So I’m sure the reverse is true as well
Blessed Augustine drew false conclusions from Psalm 50(51) verse 7. Being conceived in iniquity may have been true for David as it was certainly true for his infant son born to Bathsheba. But to apply this to all humanity and draw a conclusion about the souls of unbaptized babies is an example of Western rationalism run amok.
The phrase, "in sin did my mother conceive me" does not refer to the act by which conception happens. Rather, it refers to how the whole of creation is infected by sin so that, as Job says, no man can be without sin (i.e. apart from, or separated from sin) even if his life on earth is but a single day.
Does that justify abortion then since God would have mercy on them i’m not trying to be argumentative I have a problem believing in original sin inheritance but I also believe there is a moral reason to be against abortion
No. Because we are held to moral law as well.
@@joseonwalking8666 I’m talking about for the child not for the person they could justify it as an act of self sacrifice. I’m looking for something to use for truth to fight against this yes, it is a sin against God
@@samuelk2674 God says it's wrong so therefore, there is no justification. Jessica, some human version could use flawed. Human reasoning to try and come up with an excuse. Doesn't make it an excuse.
@@joseonwalking8666 Yes I understand it is wrong. My point is why they shouldn’t do it if they do not care what happens to them then why shouldn’t they? That’s my point I’m not trying to give them an excuse. I’m trying to get to the root of the issue so that they won’t do this.
@@samuelk2674if you don't care about the consequences to the baby then you have no reason to care. But if they are omcerned about themselves it's a sin to kill a baby but it's not a sin to die as a baby.
Death and Hades cannot win human soul, if recieved Holy Eucharist
🙏☦️❤️
I'm sorry, but you are misunderstanding what the "western" view on the matter is. Roman Catholics share the same view as Eastern Byzantine Catholics. Original sin simply means inheriting the unfortunate result of Adam's sin. We are not judged eternally for something that we did not do ourselves. That is the difference between original vs actual sin. It really bothers me when people speak of Christian sects that differ from their own and spread misleading falsehoods about it.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives us the basic teachings of our faith. Nowhere in there does it mention infants without baptism being damned. What nonsense. There is an ancient theology about the Limbo of the Infants, which is considered a natural paradise - similar to the Limbo of the Fathers. This theological concept is not mainstream today, but even when it was, there was nothing about infants being punished. So instead of blaming what you call the western Church, stick instead to condemning error and corrupt teachings with the truth. It makes no sense to speak against a corruption of the faith by spreading other errors. God bless.
St Thomas Aquinas classes both the limbo of the Fathers and the limbo of the infants as parts of hell. They are states of the soul where it is separated from the perfect love of God. In the case of the infants, it is because they suffer the effect of Adam's sin without knowing why. In the case of the Fathers, they knew why they were there. Yet in both cases, their souls long to be united with God, and so their states are the same in that way, which is why both are called limbo.
@@Ggdivhjkjl The damned don't long to be united with God. So it makes sense, that even though Limbo can be described as part of Hell, that it is not where the damned go. Thank you for enlightening us. God bless.
Papist cope. Limbo is Hell
@@MangyPL Yes, of course a papist: just like the early Church Fathers and the Apostles.
"Limbo is Hell" you say? Let's break that down. "Hell" has multiple meanings which is why distinctions are necessary. So by "Hell", you seem to mean the general abode of the dead of those who are not in Heaven. Yes then, both the Limbo of the Fathers in the old testament and the Limbo of the Infants in the new covenant would be in the abode of Hell. But you are wrong to say that it is Hell in the sense that it is one section of Hell. And it is of course important to mention that Limbo is not a place where damned souls go, whether you call it part of Hell or not.
So again, it comes back to the same issue: Catholics don't and never have believed that unbaptized babies are damned. God bless.
Adam ,Noah, Moses( entire law) none knew about an eternal hell.
God become man in order to make man in to God.
Saint Athnasious.
"The first sexually transmitted disease" BINGO--Sadly 😢
No one is facing eternal damnation. Apokatastasis is absolutely true.
Apokatastasis is a heresy damned by the 5 ecumenical council.
Apocatastasis is heresy!
Eeeeeeh I wouldn't say all that
There is no eternal damnation
Heresy is what you say here
@@danielvranceanu8751
Please go through the greek term which is used for punishment and eternal in new testament. Please try to find out what's their meaning,
@@danielvranceanu8751 if an omniscient God knew , man will not repent or reject his word/ gospel, (before his creation), what is the purpose of creation? ? ?
@@danielvranceanu8751
Please go and read the exact meaning of the keyword which is written in greek ,for eternal punishment.
@@zer-sz5tu in unconditional love there is no forcing