Sunday Vlog #51: VOLUME - How to measure it, and what to do when people complain about it
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2019
- 03:30 - The equipment we use to monitor volume
08:57 - Discussion about how to determine what volume to run your services at, and how to respond when people complain that it's too loud
Volume is a very sensitive topic for many churches, and as church leaders, we have a responsibility to make sure the volume of our worship services are in line with the visions of our churches (and are enjoyable and safe for our congregations).
In this video, we talk about both how to accurately monitor volume levels, how to develop a plan for the volume of your services, and how to respond when people complain about the level of volume.
Here are the monitoring tools that Dave was talking about:
SMAART Analyzer: www.rationalacoustics.com/sma... (this is the EQ analyzer we use)
dbx RTA-M Reference Microphone: amzn.to/2Rn7Kwl
Trend Volume Monitoring: www.howloudisit.com/
Galaxy Audio CM-170 SPL Meter: amzn.to/2MWAJsg
These are just the tools that we use at our church. The main point is to find a system of measurement that is accurate and make recordings over time. It's a good idea to save those measurements as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Download Pads and instantly elevate your worship sets: www.worshiptutorials.com/pads/
Join our Facebook group for worship leaders and worship team members: / 297108460822183
Join our Facebook P&W Gear group: / 2113165795376666
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our vision is that every church in the world would experience worship that is both excellent and authentic. We are here to help you make that happen.
CURRENT GEAR (this is the stuff I currently use to create videos)
Cameras:
Blackmagic Pocket 4k Cinema Camera: amzn.to/2OfsvIR
Fuji X-T3: amzn.to/2WiUYjV
Fuji X-H1: amzn.to/2EByeSN
Drones:
DJI Mavic Air: amzn.to/2IBuMLw
DJI Phantom 4 Pro: amzn.to/2NkGHht
Lenses:
For the Blackmagic Pocket 4k:
Panasonic 12-35 f/2.8: amzn.to/2Yao9qZ
Olympus 25mm f/1.8: amzn.to/2OfaYk2
For the Fuji cameras:
Fuji 16-55 f/2.8: amzn.to/2IEB8sr
Fuji 50-140 f/2.8: amzn.to/2qnCpwx
Fuji 10-24 f/4: amzn.to/2qo6hbU
Fuji 23mm f/2: amzn.to/2IHYuxm
Fuji 50mm f/2: amzn.to/2II4Axy
Lighting:
The Sun :)
Aputure 120d + Light Dome (my main light): www.adorama.com/apulsc120dva....
FotodioX Flapjack lights // amzn.to/2rVPrAd
Acoustic Guitars:
McPherson Carbon Fiber Guitar (Sable): mcphersonguitars.com/carbon-s...
Martin D-35 // amzn.to/2sWkvUV
Martin CEO-7 // amzn.to/2tOcjCM
LR Baggs Anthem Pickup (in both) // amzn.to/2tOenus
Capos:
G7th Performance Capos
Cables:
Sinasoid Cables: www.sinasoid.com
Amps/Pedals:
Line 6 Helix // amzn.to/2sU5P8Z
Bass Guitar:
Music Man Sterling S.U.B. Ray4 // amzn.to/2rCNp8r
Recording Interface:
Universal Audio Apollo 8
Microphones:
Shure SM7b (vocals) // amzn.to/2rVGIxP
AKG C214 (vocals and everything else) // amzn.to/2tO5eCr
Software & Virtual Instruments
Recording software: Apple Logic Pro X
Video editing software: Adobe Premiere CC
Video editing - color correction: Davinci Resolve
Omnisphere (Pads, synths, etc) // amzn.to/2sU3ta7
Native Instruments Komplete (strings, pianos, etc) // amzn.to/2sUemJ0
/////////////////////////
Web: www.worshiptutorials.com
Facebook: / worshiptutorials
Instagram: / worshiptutorials
Twitter: / wrshptutorials - เพลง
We offer ear plugs for free, we also keep a running meter that keeps our loudest db measurement. However the most effective thing (I hate to admit it) is a dummy fader. It does nothing but is at a high level and close to the master section. If someone approaches (regardless of the signs that say do not disturb during the service) we turn down the dummy fader, usually they give us the perfect hand gesture and say thanks, we've done nothing and became their hero. Disclaimer it does not always work. we run roughly 84-95db depending on the crowds location in the room.
What I recommend is to start with things dialed back and build up. When you have been sitting through rehearsal and sound check, you become used to the volume. Not to mention that all of the musicians and sound guys are half deaf any way. But the person walking in from their quiet drive to church, get blasted with the first song.
The next thing that is the worst culprit to causing sound complaints is that the room is not eq’d. It’s not that it is too loud, it is that certain frequencies are too loud.
After our 2 months of acoustic sets while everyone got their breaks and vacations in, I've recieved a couple of noise complaints last Sunday morning after bringing back the full band. The sound guy was right where its still literally the same volume overall, but the EQ is heavier in the different frequencies that the congregation has been exposed to in a while. Easy fix on the board in the back with the sound guy, but my knee jerk reaction was to be offended and rip out my spreadsheet with all the info of how they are wrong and the volume is the same level, but thats the last thing someone with a hearing aid wants to be told. Just kindly explain that you are working on it and dialing it in. Kindness, patience and tact are key to developing a style of leadership grounded in love. Christians are the last hope in this world for genuineness in this world. If they aren't getting it from their leadership, then Christ died for nothing.
Brad Kirks Amen to that! Great reminder to all of us as Pastors and ministry staff leaders to never forget the ministry side of it and always handle those situations with grace and truth.
One thing we do when coming out of softer acoustic songs is try to ease back into high volume so ears have time to adjust. Also, if we are kicking off a celebration with a bigger / louder song, we will start to ease the pre-celebration music louder starting 5 or 10 minutes before the celebration starts so the change in SPL isn’t so drastic.
Dude.. Great video. Objective, not just saying "well it depends." Thank you
Thanks for this video. I am both a guitar player and a sound engineer at my church. So I know the pains on both levels. And they can be “pains”. We are on the same level as you are 97 to 100. We also supply the individually wrapped foam earplugs. But there will always be that one person and you just have to cast the vision of what you are trying to accomplish and keep moving forward.
Wouldn't it be more effective to measure during service? 98dB during rehearsal vs 98dB during a service with lots of people singing is gonna feel different.
Great vlog guys 👍🏻
One thing about testing in an empty room: People absorb sound. Their clothes absorb sound and so 98 db will be different when people are in there. Rehearsal might not be the best time to decide; perhaps during a service?
I hear you on the typical Sunday morning load up. I usually have my Gretsch, Taylor 514, Banjitar and HD500x. Plus triple guitar stand. Also my wife’s cello.
You guys totally should have done this episode with the MxU guys! They are all over this and experts on the matter. I think you guys did a great job covering it though! I would say to everyone as you did, clearly define the vision of the church and serve your people. That is our job in the church, to serve our people. Music volume will be different for every kind of church, with every genera of music, in every room, on every PA, and from every audio engineer. Finding what works for your specific situation is the most important, and then through the tools you have mentioned become consistent and accountable. Great episode, but I know you are going to get a lot of people looking to know more about this one. Send them over to the MxU guys for more on audio production and mixing!
One helpful tip I heard somewhere was that when someone complains it is too loud, go and stand with them where they were standing, and ask them to try and describe what's too loud. You may need to give them a few pointers, e.g. "Do the vocals sound a bit harsh?" or "Is the bass too boomy?" Often people aren't necessarily complaining about the overall volume, just the volume of something in particular. Also, going and standing with them shows that you care and are willing to hear them out.
However, I am curious to know what to do if your church has three sound engineers, and one in particular mixes waaaaay too loud (and several people inc. the other sound guy and girl agree). Any ideas?
With the touch screen setup, there is a Mac program called UPDD that simulates touch. I have a touch screen hooked up to our FOH pro presenter computer and it works great. Simply one finger touch simulates pressing he right arrow key on the key board and two finger touch simulates pressing the left arrow key on the keyboard.
@4:55 - am I hearing "Scoop the mids"?
Our sound booth has a poster on the wall that says 86 to 96 (or thereabouts) on the db range.
Nice geeky episode - thanks.
As the worship pastor, we are also really lacking in the sound person dept. So I've been using trackslive (a waves plugin) to record our practice, then I can go back thru Thursdays and remix and adjust the levels of the room. Its been a great way to help be consistent and really listen to the room.
Josh Donis Great strategy! Virtual soundcheck is an awesome tool that we use every week as well.
Dave Bookhout it’s honestly been a game changer, not only can I re mix the room, but I can mix our online, and also spend extra time re mixing my in ear mix if I’m not happy with it
On the db meter, are you usually measuring with the meter set to A-weighted/ slow? That's what I normally use.. Without specifying that, the readings discussed mean less.
Burnhaven Yes, we use A weighted slow. That metering system and our SPL certainly aren’t a recommendation. Super important to figure out what works best in your room / situation.
I get this all the time! We mix for 85 but peak at 100 sometimes. I've made the mistake of having a bad attitude. I've also learned the phrase, "I'm working on it." I use that one a lot!
You can also employ the ‘dummy fader’. Have a fader that’s set to not do anything, but keep it up pretty high. Of someone approaches you and complains, pull it down a bit and say, “how’s that - better?”
You’d be surprised how well this works.
@@worshiptutorials On the scribble strip it's labeled, "Placebo! "And
Sometimes we adjust the placebo level of the Mains. Hehe.
Need some info on Fuller's bass please.
Good recommendations. I actually mapped out relative dB variance levels in the auditorium using pink noise so I could recommend a couple louder and quieter zones for people. Asking questions can turn them into allies and-who knows-I might learn something!
What is pink noise?
As a guitar player, I enjoy music at levels higher than some of the congregation. However, the volume of the music should facilitate the purpose for gathering together on a Sunday morning, namely assisting the congregation in their singing as an expression of corporate worship. In order to keep congregational singing the main thing in the musical portion of our services, shouldn’t the music be at a level that allows the voice of the congregation to feature prominently?
on my PC I have used touch screen on Pro-Presenter - my laptop has touch screen - and it works...
Ken Evans Essentially tapping the touch screen is like clicking it with a mouse. We have only tested on Pro Presenter for MAC but when clicking the full screened presentation it does not advance the slide (the only way we’ve found to advance slides is by using the space bar or arrow keys) if you have found that this is different on PC please let me know. We would gladly run windows bootcamp if you can accomplish this.
@@northwaybookn I will try it this week... I am sure it works as it should
You mention that you are trying to make it "immersive", but my goals are a little different for congregational singing. I do want it to be immersive in a different sense. I want to hear the contributions of all the singers in the congregation (hence "congregational" singing), to hear those singing next to you and the next few rows as much as those leading us. I want to avoid instrumental volumes (during the lyrics) that detract from hearing the words while balancing enough instrumental and worship leader vocal volume so that congregants have enough backing to feel they can sing out, but low enough that the worship leader vocals are a little elevated above the congregation, but blend in as part of the whole.
Perhaps another way to describe it is to feel "unplugged" while in a room that is too large to be unplugged.
Also I want to avoid some of the zombie singing I see when the volume reaches a certain level, where people stop singing and just mouth the words because they can't hear themselves, or they hurt their voices trying to sing loud enough to hear their own voices. I can see it on their faces when we reach that level, a slack-jawed disengagement, and I watch it ripple through as people give up after time.
Do you have a sense of what DB range would be golden for this? It feels like 75 - 85 Db.
Is there a way this can be measured at different places in the room? Are there any tricks where we can use to measure congregational volume apart from the speaker volume?
Also at what frequency levels should I avoid high instrumental volume levels to avoid overpowering congregational volume?
Are their some instruments more prone to compete with overpoweringly with vocals?
1. "not the right church for them"... what happened to Paul saying we should be all things to all people so that by any means we might save some?
2. Should we not maintain a level that draws people into worship? Can you worship if you can't hear yourself singing with the band? These are the things I struggle with sunday to sunday and I can't help but kicking in a little more volume so that I can be emersed in worship.
Hi Andrew - I don't think Paul meant that every church should cater to every person when he said that. That's why there are so many different kinds and styles of churches - which is a good thing. It would be impossible to please everyone's preferences.
We use the app “AudioTools” on an iPad at FOH. It has a lot of the same features and works well. Are you guys using A weighted or C weighted measurement?
Ryland Russell Audio tools is great as well. We use it on an iPad when doing off site / portable events. Another good option for sure! All our measurement is done at A weighted / slow.
@@northwaybookn Are you running Smaart and Trend on the same computer as Waves or do you have a designated Waves computer?
Brian Nestel We have a designated Waves computer
I wouldn't by any stretch of the term call myself a sound guy, I'm mainly the lead guitarist and once in a while worship leader at my church, but sound has always been a critical topic here. There hasn't been someone to really take the ministry and develop it so we just have a few guys who adjust faders on sundays who aren't extremely teachable. So when I jump on, I do my best to EQ out harsh frequencies as well as making the band and singers sound full and rich. But we have a few select people who CONSTANTLY have an issue with sound volume. The iPhone DB meter warriors who will rush to the board screaming about topping out at 97 when our TREND monitor clearly states were averaging 87 and peaked at 93 one time. Ear plugs have been offered, but rejected, asked to sit in a quieter section, but give excuses regarding that as well. By no means is our worship service ever Loud in my opinion (most would argue it's too quiet) and its not for lack of good sound equipment either since we've just renovated our sound system and board. But im stuck on how else to deal with the people who always have something to complain about. As a volunteer, it's extremely demoralizing to do sound and get berated by members of the congregation on a weekly basis.
Man that's rough - my heart goes out to you. It's so hard to do ministry when people treat you that way. My advice would be to involve your pastor. First to make sure your pastor is on board with the level of volume in your room, and then to help mediate the conflict between the members who complain and the leadership they complain to. If it were me, I'd give my pastor a heads up, and then the next time a person complained (if they do it all the time), I'd say something like, "You know our pastor and I have worked very hard to determine the level of volume that is appropriate for our worship services, and if you'd like we can go find him/her right now and have a conversation about it".
That will help the person know their complaints are being heard, but also let them know that the volume level is strategic, and involving a third party - especially the pastor - might help the complaints stop.
Worship Tutorials thanks for the reply. Luckily my pastor is definitely on board with how we've been attempting to conduct sound which is great. But they won't say anything to him and wait until there's someone behind the board to voice their opinion. I just want the other volunteers to not be negatively affected by this. Thanks again for this video, already shared it with the team.
I completely feel for you, and agree with everything that the Worship Tutorials guys have said. In music and production the relationships and message are the key. I will also say though, it is very important to also have a good mix, regardless of volume. Getting someone behind the console who is passionate about music and mixing, and is equipped to mix well might be that difference for you. A rough mix at 90 will sound loud and bad, while a great mix at 100 will sound completely pleasant, in the same room! I am on staff at my church as the A1 and TD and have spent years mixing professionally, I have seen this exact thing many times. The person mixing is equally as important as any musician on stage. I would encourage your team and leadership to ponder that, and consider finding teachable volunteers. Quality people at the console will make or break a whole service. It is such an important position! Then equip them to do the job. Finding a local mentor would be awesome, but for convenience an amazing resource is a group called MxU that does an on demand video series about mixing called MxU Now. These guys are easily the best in the business and amazing teachers.
Something else I have also learned: most of the time people will just complain about volume, but it is actually a specific sound that is bothering them. People will say it is loud because they don't know how else to communicate what they are thinking. I have learned after pursuing the volume conversation with several people that most of the time its is a specific sound or instrument this is actually bothering them. In a lot of churches it's something like the drums that they think are to loud (which most of the time is actually the kick being felt too much, or the cymbals getting harsh) or the sound of distortion on the guitars. I discovered one gentlemen just didn't like the sound of reverb! The fact is that the average church attender isn't a musician or audio expert. This means that they have no idea how to specifically communicate what they are hearing, but they know how to say it's loud. I have also seen people who are just plain upset with the church and choose volume to be their area to voice these feelings. Point being, talking with people more can help a lot most of the time.
This idea of specific instruments getting offensive also goes hand in hand with a good mix. Ultimately though I would really push the relationship stuff going on in your situation, as Worship Tutorials has. If these people are concerned about numbers and won't communicate with leadership, then there will be problems regardless of how good your mix is. But, consistent and quality mixing is still so important.
Side note: I made sure to turn this up too loud.
Top Gun theme wins new believers every week!
I’m believing in faith that it does 😂
105 boys and girls, pin it to win it 🤘🏼
Hii I'm Aadil khan singer very nice voice
Can y'all please do hell or high water by people and songs
Ha your request has been noted