Who is, in you opinion, the best admiral the Royal Navy had after the Napoleonic Wars and what type of ship of the modern Royal Navy thould you name after him?
Ooohh, I love alternative history, play out that scenario, the spanish keep the philippines and thus the US doesn't get immediately involved in ww2. How far do the japanese penetrate in their attack on the british empire, and what does the potential loss of goods from the indian ocean mean for the war in europe?
During WWII how did the Free Navies train their replacements? Did they just go through training with the Brits? Have their own training cycles? On the job training?
May have been answered before so please can someone link if so, BUT: As mentioned before, during WW1 the Austro-Hungarian and Italian navies kept watch on the other but had no major engagements - who would you put your money on?
I remember reading that at the Battle of Manilla Bay the US sailors were cheering as the Spanish fleet was being destroyed. Dewey said something like, "Don't cheer. Those men are dying."
Actually, that was Capt. Jack Phillips of USS Texas (Maine’s sister ship) at Santiago de Cuba. He was appalled by the fires sweeping the Spanish ships. To his credit, Phillips and the other US commanders worked very hard to save as many Spanish sailors as they could. It was about as one sided as a battle can get.
@@markrook6085 wow I have a lot about the Battle of Manila bay here than at school. Am a Filipino. What they taught at school was that the Battle was Scripted and has no mention of any personnel present on the Battle.
@@jameshailerthepostmaster4389 That incident was the land battle for the city, in August of 1898, where American and Spanish troops traded the city after a few skirmishes that left a dozen dead. Ranking American and Spanish officers agreed to this so the Filipino troops couldn’t take the city instead. The Battle of Manila Bay, on May 1st 1898 was an actual battle that left most Spanish vessels sunk and almost a hundred killed and wounded.
I actually saw the Spanish submarine last year. Quite an incredible bit of kit considering it was designed and built in 1888. Isaac Peral was something of a visionary.
Hi form Spain. Here in Spain we have the expression more was lost in Cuba. The fact is that many spaniards believe it was a war between woodden ships and modern battleships. A relieve attempt was sent to the philippines, but this was not allowed to pass through the Suez Canal
By the way, to this day the Spanish Navy is still called la Armada and so are the other Spanish-speaking navies of the world. Which I'm not too sure but it probably roots it's name to the difference between "Marina Mercante" Merchant Navy (Merchant Marine in the US) and "Marina Armada" Armed Navy. Cheers from Spain!
Not only Spain but the entire Spanish-speaking world. Here is a photo of an Argentine Navy Super Etendard: www.airteamimages.com/dassault-super-etendard_0764_argentina---navy_141905_large.html
@@biddyboy1570 I can answer only 1 name to you.... BLAS DE LEZO Royal navy...losing since 1589....only 1 year later the Royal Navy lose even more ships and soldiers than spanish armada in the coast of Ferrol...but maybe your manipulated history tells you nothing about that....but what can you spect from a country of pirates and smuglers...
An amazing video - one cannot help but marvel at the bravery and audacity of the Spanish, charging the American fleet, knowing that death was coming. I remember when Iowa, I think, sank a Spanish cruiser, and the American crew began to cheer, the her Captain silenced them with a roar "Don't cheer men, those are brave men dying over there!" This was a different era of warfare, altogether. Iron ships, and iron men, and honor over all.
Nice work with the spanish spelling. As both cuban and spaniard, I have to say that I hardly can imagine the what if scenario of prioritizing The Phillipines over Cuba. The political, social ties were a lot stronger with Cuba. Is also worth of mention the ongoing conflict in the island long before the American intervention. Excellent video!
Might as well send the Spanish armada at the "height" of it's power for all the good if would do. Tillman's ships might've been obscenely over built and over armed, but it would be an all you can see buffet of dead Spaniards.
@@highjumpstudios2384 if the fight starts with the Spanish in boarding positions they probably have a chance assuming there's only one Tillman in this fight if there's multiple in the Spanish just don't have a chance regardless
Excellent account of the relative naval strengths of Spain and the US before the Spanish-American War. But, politically, it was unthinkable for the Spanish goverment of the time to abandon Cuba and put a strong fight for the Philippines. For the Spanish people Cuba was not a colony, but an integral part of Spain, just as Cádiz or the Canary Islands. However, the Philippines did were considered a colony.
@@NautilusSSN571 there would still be a feel to need to revolt albeit mostly in Mindanao seeing as how that island group was mostly muslim even before the Spanish had came
@@NautilusSSN571 Philippines was seen as a important part of the empire, after losing their mainland colonies they decided to keep it despite the increase in maintenance
18:10 That's exactly what happened, very few historians recognize that even today. In some Spanish military groups it's thought as a betrayal from the Spanish politician's.
I got confused when you mentioned the submarine Holland. Thought you were talking about the HMS Holland 1, but found out that USS Holland was named after John Philip Holland, who apparently was an Irish engineer who developed the first submarine formally commissioned into the US Navy, AND the first Royal Navy submarine, HMS Holland 1.
frank hargreaves While they weren't related, Holland had a sinking feeling about being a bit wet behind the ears, and upon hearing this, Souza dropped into a fugue and blew his brains out (of a tuba). If any of that made sense to you, 4 AM Me is sorry, but there's nothing that can be done. G'night.
@@lawrencelewis8105 Don't know how Spain could have been a treat with how they had become a sickman of Europe, France and Britain would have madr morr sence.
@@davidtuttle7556 Americans took over the project in 1904 so I think planning and decision making had been going on for years, like Theodore Roosevelt's threats to Columbia to break off a piece of the Panamanian province to have the US control the Canal Zone. I do think the Spanish American war was a result of that. Plus, the US had filled the country out from coast to coast and was now looking at the rest of the world. What better way then to precipitate a "Splendid little war" as an American politician said at the time . Plus, William Randolph Hearst was pushing for a war to sell newspapers.
Thing was, Cuba was vastly more important to the Spanish than the Phillipenes. It was considered almost a part of Spain in some respects, and just abandoning it wasn't politically possible.
Same went with the philippines, from felipe II to alfonso XIII, they saw them as proper spanish land, after losing all of their continental land, maintaining the ph was more expensive, but it was seen as important spanish land
Another superb historical video. One surprise: Drach's comment about the U.S. battleships not being capable of rounding South America. U.S.S. Oregon famously did exactly that in March--May 1898. The Indiana-class Oregon was built in California and based there from her 1896 commission onward. In preparation for hostilities the Navy Department called her to the Atlantic Fleet. Oregon steamed steadily from San Francisco to the East Coast: 14,000 miles in 66 days. [This "fast" trip was later used as justification for undertaking to dig the Big Ditch across the Panama Isthmus.] Oregon participated at Santiago and contributed materially to the U.S. Navy victory. Notably, the Spanish admiral commanding in Manila heard that Oregon had left California. He feared that she was coming to join Admiral Dewey in China, whose then-assigned four ships already outweighed his own squadron. [The ship that did augment the Asiatic Squadron turned out to be the protected cruiser U.S.S. Baltimore--another 8"-gunned protected cruiser that plainly outclassed the Spanish ships.] Pelayo and cruisers were sent to Manila. They got as far as the Red Sea when they were recalled [on what may have been a planted story that the U.S. Navy was going to raid Spanish home waters]. The Navy Department was properly concerned for security of the East Coast [far closer to Spain than to the Philippines] so Oregon's orders to the Atlantic made good sense. But she easily could have been sent instead to join Dewey--and surely would have made short work of Pelayo. After the war concluded Oregon returned to the West Coast [via Cape Horn, of course]. She conducted multiple operations across the Pacific Ocean during a long and useful life that included WW2 logistical service as an ammunition transport hulk participating in the 1944 invasion of Guam.
Good video. the guns of Cristobal Colon were refused because the units received were defective and the replacement were not ready when the war started. I would have noted that Spanish navy was limited in a certain way because the far location of the territories (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines) required long range ships. Also, the chaotic internal situation, with civil wars and constant goverment changes during the XIX century caused that the navy could not be properly maintained.
In the English language history of the Cristobal Colon the main armament guns were the subject of a 'dispute' with the British Armstrong manufacturer. Were the weapons defective, and under a contract warranty for replacement?
My congratulations for releasing this video about naval history of my country, you have all my finest support. This particulary moment of the history you describe is something that I have studied since many time and from many sources. The fact is that the spanish navy at that time was suffering a hugue transformation to a true naval power, with modern ships that was at the same tech level than other western powers. There are many circunstances that makes this steps not to be as fine as they would be. Those was a lack of time to complete the naval programs, the lack of vision of high admiralty to see the potential usefulness of Peral submarine, the corruption established in the government structures, the lack of financial support of the naintenance of vessels and proper training, the lost of the finest naval gun engineer Gonzalez Hontoria, an of course a lack of a good strategic plan to use our more capable oceanic vessels instead to use it to accomplish Madrid politicians assesments. We never could win that war, but I am sure that with a good strategy our ships could have defeated USA ships in the Caribean.
exacto, ganar la guerra contra los americanos habría sido muy difícil o imposible, pero al menos no perderla de una forma tan aplastante, de forma que a la hora de negociar la paz se hubiera hecho en mejores términos
At the time of the war, Spain had one large cruiser vessel received from the constructors about middle May 1897. This vessel, Cristobal Colon, went to Cuba after May 1898 without her main armament 254mm (10inch) weaponry. The English language histories portray this problem as an assessment by the Spanish government and/or navy as being un-acceptable. Were there any viable alternatives to British Armstrong 254mm guns? Could Spain have contacted Krupp gun works about 280mm or 240mm? Could the French construction yard at La Seyne have access to 274mm or 240mm weapons for Cristobal Colon? Could the Hontoria company provided 200mm or 160mm weapons?
This is a very interesting "For want of a Nail" scenario. Without the Philippines, I very much doubt America would have any interest in the Western Pacific region. However I should point out that by about this time America annexed Hawaii, so they would still have some Pacific interest. There's also another factor to consider though: what would Anglo-American relations be like? If Japan follows through with its Southern Expansion doctrine, it's going to gun for Australia. Since Australia was a very prominent dominion of the British Empire, depending upon how good relations between America and the UK are would determine if America would continue the trade embargo against Japan. If relations are strained, America might not be inclined to help the British. Conversely if relations are good, then the Pacific Campaign plays out almost exactly as it has happened.
And there's also the fact that Japan's Southern Expansion might also be a lot smoother than it was, given that they could happily ignore the Philippines, given Franco's alignment and all. And I'd probably know Spanish.
Interesting thoughts there, machaman13. But if the relationship between the US and UK is strained there is the possibility that the UK would renew its relationship with Japan, which was only ended at the insistence of the US. This would leave the UK to concentrate on Germany and Italy and Japan could carry on in the Western Pacific knowing that the UK will not intervene and with no need to stretch their resources all the way down to Australia. They take the Dutch East Indies and get the oil they need. And as we both now see the losers here will the US as the one thing they feared was a strong Japan in the Western Pacific. And that is the one thing they now have.
mechaman13 If the US doesn’t have any interest in the Western Pacific then it is likely that the Anglo-Japanese navel treaty would have been maintained and Japan is not necessarily hostile to the UK.
I think that the concentration would have still been in China. I think that without US guarantees on the Dutch East Indies the Dutch probably would have tried to come to an agreement with Japan as far as oil and rubber trade goes. Japan was interested in resources and might end up either invading later or pulling a stunt like they did with French Indochina where they controlled the area but nominally said the area belonged to Vichy France. Many in the Japanese Army considered the moves in SE Asia as a diversion from the real goal which was control of China. Plus I'm not sure that Japan was that interested in Australia. I'm sure there were some that would love to own the continent but as far as a major source of resources China had more known at the time and it was a lot closer.
Of course, there's also the increasing public opinion against Nazi Germany going on in the USA. Even if Japan didn't attack the US like they did historically, it's possible, and I want to believe likely, that the US would have entered the war against the Axis powers anyway at a later date. And once that happens, I don't think that Japan is going to get away scot free, as a member of the Axis. It might not have the same priority for the US as it did historically, but I think it'd happen.
Tangential to this, if you are in Puerto Rico I highly recommend you visit Old San Juan and specifically the fort of El Moro. Inside one of the towers just above the “water battery” you can still see where a US battleship shell penetrated the wall of the tower and exploded inside the tower. Shell fragments are imbedded in the stone to this day.
Interesting video. In high school I did my senior year independent study paper on Naval Campaigns Of The Spanish - American War. I did a lot of research using primary sources for the time including newspapers both American and European. At the outbreak of war, the outcome was still considered very much in the air in Europe. The Spanish ships had Krupp guns and armor, and the general opinion was that was superior to what was being produced in the U.S. Of course, hindsight is 20 / 20 , but at the time things were not as clear. The American view was, from the start, that we would win; although, perhaps, not in as one sided a thrashing as took place.
One thing about the Spanish Navy- In Rota, Spain in the 1970s where we tied up on my 4 Med cruises when I was in the Navy was the aircraft carrier, the Dedalo. It never went anywhere but it was a beautiful old ship. Some friends went aboard and they said it was like visiting a museum, but it was an active ship. It also had a bar on it, something the US navy never had.
I loved this video. Perhaps you could have included an interesting fact about the state of the Armada española at the time: 10 years before the Span-Am war they had already built the first electric powered submarine armed with torpedoes. It can be visited in the Museo Naval in Cartagena (Spain). Just imagine if Spain had had the economic health to build and deploy a "pack of wolves" in Cuba and/or the Philippines. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_submarine_Peral
Congratulations for drawing attention to the - woefully unknown - Spanish-American War. I would highly recommend the PBS documentary "Crucible of Empire - The Spanish American War". It's very well done, and very probably a great eye opener to many.
In regards the potential of a Spanish victory in the pacific’s effect on future WWII, keep in mind that the China Lobby in the US was very very influential and the US would still probably be pre-disposed to aid the Chinese, and regardless of its anti-imperial stance would probably be hostile to Japanese aggression against the European powers. It would be interesting to see how the Spanish overseas possessions would deal with their own civil war, or perhaps, had there ever been a civil war 40 years later if they hadn’t been so thoroughly mauled in the conflict with the US.
The obvious counter to that would be what sort of impact it would have with Franco having hypothetical control of the Philippines. It may have put Spain in a more powerful position during WWII and could possibly have led to them aiding the IJN.
Agree that Pearl Buck and the missionary societies to China would have retained a lot of influence in the USA even without naval bases in the Western Pacific/Phillipines. On the other hand, it's a little hard to see the Americans willing to go to war over the sinking of the Reuben James.
Even so, no US presence in the Philippines and no Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor means the US entry into the war is delayed, giving the Japanese Empire time to finish many of its campaigns in the WestPac and denies the US the massive propaganda coup handed to them by the surprise attack at Pearl. It also has implications for the European theater as well, since US entry there will also be delayed.
@@RCAvhstape not necessarily. Remember that Roosevelt had been trying to get into the war in Europe since winning reelection at the end of 1940. Even before that, the US Navy's broadcasting of the location of any belligerent's vessels it encountered had the practical effect of helping the British hunt down German merchant shipping. Lend-Lease, in March 1941, was a decidedly non-neutral act, as was escorting British convoys part of the way across the Atlantic. Roosevelt's "shoot on sight" order was issued in September 1941, and the Navy, in the person of Admiral Ghormley, had been actively cooperating with the Royal Navy since July. The USS Niblack dropped depth charges on U-52 as early as April 1941. More directly on point, however, is the promise made at the Atlantic Conference in August 1941, to go to war if Japan attacked the UK in Malaya. While in practice this would mean Roosevelt asking Congress to declare war, he obviously thought he could deliver if he was making that promise to Churchill. Really, the Japanese did him a huge favor by attacking the US as well, because that turned would could have been a close vote into a near-unanimous one (Jeanette Rankin of Montana voted against in the House). We must not overstate the potential for the US involvement in WW2 to be delayed.
Thanks, as always Drachiinifel. Your insight, research and observations are always welcome ! I should get an app for auto-like ! BTW, Charles V (a Spaniard, Holy Roman Emperor)) rumourdly, famously said, " To My God, I speak Spanish, to my courtiers, French, my lovers, Italian. As for my horses, nothing but German. Good Luck with all of that !
Nice video. There is an interesting sci-fi “what if” novel called Fuego sobre San Juan (Fire on San Juan) in which the Armada, as in fact it was suggested by Villaamil, designer of the destroyer, disassembled the Nordenfelt multi-tube machine guns (11 and 25 mm) from their ships and used them in battlefields, mainly at San Juan Hills and El Caney, producing a massacre and deciding the war. A few years later a japanese fleet under the command of Togo headed to attack the Philippines where a respectable Spanish fleet awaited him, reinforced after his victory in the war of '98. It could have happened the situation you said, even before the IWW. Unfortunately and despite the beating that the few Spanish soldiers gave the overconfident Rough Riders, the naval war, as it usually happens, decided the conflict. Waiting for another chapter.
The annexation of Guam was bloodless and rather amusing (because the Spanish authorities believed protected cruiser USS Charleston was making a friendly port call), but it's proven to be of paramount strategic importance.
as far a I remember from school history class, in spain the conflict is taught as spain not having the means, the organization, the technology nor the will, so yeah, it was more a show effort from the part of spain than anything else, or at least that is how it's taught
Spain might not have held on to the Philippines even if they had beaten off the US Asiatic fleet. I think the cloud of butterflies would have been very complex post-1998 in the absence of the US occupation. My forefathers were in revolt and may yet have won their independence (at least momentarily), but may not have been able to hold on to more than the major island of Luzon -- meaning internecine conflict within the archipelago between various indigenous polities. There were other sharks in the water, established colonial powers in the neighborhood who might have felt compelled to move into a vacuum or take over to re-establish order. There were also up-and-comers just itching to expand their territories -- such as the Japanese, who, if we can recall, took advantage of WWI to expand their holdings in the Pacific. The Philippines could have been ruled in whole or in part by the Spaniards (who might, after all, have quelled our rebellion), Dutch, French, British, or Japanese, or the islands could have been broken off into pieces by any combination of these powers. History goes off in all directions depending on how things were sorted out. Imagine if the Japanese *already* had forward bases in the Philippines in the 30's. Or imagine if the major British naval base in the area was not in Singapore but in Manila Bay. History would have unfolded very differently indeed. (The one outcome I doubt would have been a long-term independent Philippines. There is very little precedent for a former colony achieving and maintaining its independence in that era, except in the margins. My poor country was simply too strategically placed to have stayed out of the grip of one or another great power for very long. Hopefully, we would have achieved nationhood later on if something like the global post-WWII decolonization had occurred.)
An excellent book about the US Navy that covers that time period is titled "The American Steel Navy". It covers the whole time from the arguments that started the modernization, thru the war of 1898, thru to the "Great White Fleet" circumnavigating the globe. It covers a great deal of the naval thinking of the time, including a fair bit of the theories Alfred Thayer Mahan. I don't remember the author's name, but I do remember that it was published by Annapolis Press, i.e. the US Naval Academy. I bought a copy for my Dad year's ago, my uncle I believe has it now. Thanks to Drach here, I'm going to have to track down a copy for myself.
Just prior to the war the Oregon was sent to the Atlantic via sailing around South America. So if it had stayed on station then what would have happened if the Spanish battleship and armored cruiser arrived in time for the Philippine sea battle? I always wondered about that.
The main question would've been what the time difference would be between the Spanish arriving in force and Oregon making it's way across the Pacific (plus Pelayo + Armoured cruisers would almost certainly have brought a large number of destroyers with them).
The US Navy did send two low freeboard monitors, USS Monterey and USS Monadnock, across the Pacific in June/July 1898 in order to support Dewey in Manila. Maybe that was because of the German vessels troubling Dewey in Manila.
Drach, great video once again. Off topic but could you do HMS Monarch (1868)? Seems to be a fascinating ship a steam iron clad ship with masts and turrets. I am fascinated by sails on the early ironclad ships because of their concern about lack of fuel sources. There’s a kind of comeback today in cargo ships today trying to experiment with sails in order to save fuel. Just curious how useful those sails were in reality and how comparable could she sail compared to purpose built sailing ships. I don’t think there’s any info in fact in this ship on TH-cam. Thanks!
An interesting thought: In the 40 subsequent years after the Spanish keeping the Philippines, it's actually possible that there might even have been, at some point, some sort of treaty between the Japanese and the US, rather than the friction that historically happened. A very interesting idea - I can still absolutely see the US government of the time embargoing Japan over it's behavior in China, but one Borneo was captured, I could expect that to be mostly a hollow action also.
This is my favorite youtube channel. I listen to it all day since I got laid off because of the plague. I cancelled cable a long time ago and just have internet and this all I watch anymore . Thank you Mr. Drachinifel for taking the time to make these videos. Can you cover some ancient battles of the Romans, Greeks, Carthan's, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians and vikings? Did Vikings ever fight naval battles?
Drach yes you are Correct I Did enjoy this Video . We have a Gun from the Castilla in Highland Park . At 12 Minutes you mention Unprotected Cruisers and at 12:50 name the Castilla . May 1st 1998 Battle of Manila Bay is where she was Sunk in Shallow Water . The Krupp15-cm S K L /35 Naval Rifle was made in 1883 or 1893. It is one of the 4 main guns mounted in Sponsons . The Naval Rifle is very Large with a 5.9inch bore and Range was 6 miles . The other 2 Surviving Naval Rifles from the Ship are on the State house Lawn in Montpelier ,Vermont which was Dewey's Home town . At 13 :15 you suggest lack of speed of the Unprotected Cruisers , yes You are Correct Again . A few days before the Battle the Castilla had a bad Propeller Shaft Leak . They sealed the leak with Cement which means the Ship was towed and moored in Shallow Water prior to the Battle . It was nice that this Video showed me more about the ships used and Photos of them . I loved the Floating dry docks pictured . The Krupp can be seen on You tube , search for . " Duck ( Mallard ) it is a Krupp Naval Rifle Episode 134 "
Most of the US Navy in 1865 is coastal blockade interdiction ships or riverine patrol boats, usually equipped with mortars, maybe also spar torpedos. Though large it wasn't an ocean going navy and was optimized for intercepting capturing or destroying (usually unarmed) (sometimes not always fast) blockade runners. Scrapping it wasn't really much loss of defense potential.
Love your work. it appears that the USS Oregon's 14,000 mile trip to the east coast is missing from your what ifs. It is of my interest to me because it was built in my home town and had a remarkable and strange history but it also in the context of this video might it not have been sent to help Dewey if needed?
@@Drachinifel But the Oregon did round the horn, so she must have been more seaworthy than she looked. Also somehow ended up in the Philippines at the end of her carrier.
Love your channel brother. Most of what I learn here I will never use but, I'm always on the hunt for new and interesting information and your channel has plenty of it. Thanks man.
Future shades of Alaska. An Alaskan said after being presented the size and breadth of Texas, "I'd put a fence down the middle and make two ranches out of it."
Could you do a review of the Light Cruiser that was named after Admiral Cervera? Also as a historical note. He was one of the few officers who was pushing for modernization of the Spanish Navy during this time
Thank you , SIr, for your videos on naval subjects; I really came to like and enjoy them - well, yes, I fear the end of quarantine, because working again will deprive me of thy chance to binge watch them all :-)
Keep in mind USS Oregon, a good ship with a well-trained crew, was already in the Pacific prior to the war. It could have been assigned to join Dewey and her absence would have had no effect on Cuban operations. That would have taken care of any concentration in what the Spanish could send. Good point on if the US was not a western Pacific power before WW II. There might be a small US Asiatic Squadron in China, but it would be difficult to see it engaging the powerful Japanese fleet for no reason. And, what would be the effect on Japanese fleet composition? Without the US as the main probable enemy, would the Japanese fleet look the same in 1941? Also, without major US fleet units in the Pacific, what would this mean to the British and Dutch fleets? No probable American backup would surely mean the RN and the Dutch would HAVE to have more units in Southeast Asia. What would the US fleet look like and where would be based, and what would be the war planning? This is fun!
Fascinating... thank you! More interesting things to think about - if Spain still held the Philippines, would the Republic have used THEM as a dumping ground for disgruntled officers, like they did with the Canarias? AND... General Franco only became an Army officer because the Spanish Armada was so drastically reduced by the Spanish-American War. He came from a naval family & had wanted to go Navy. How different would things be if he was an Admiral instead of a General...
The Americans kept officially telling Europe that they were against the idea of a colonial empire, yet they established their own. The Philippinos were rising against the Spanish and didn't expect the Americans to replace the Spanish as overlords. The "pacification" meant up to 2 million people lost their lives between 1899 and 1902. The Maine like a few ship suffered a coaldust explosion in Havana. The excuse the US needed to declare war.
Fantastic video as always Drach......I still think it would be best to lock Congress in a room with an angry grizzly bear......#stopbillabuse Btw great job on pronouncing all those Spanish names Drach.
Numantia and Victoria were refitted in La Seyne in 1895, they had new QF Guns installed and rigging removed, cant remember if boilers were replaced as wellness, but theese two ships were much more than Just obsolete ironclads.
Would love to see the channel do a full video on the Battle of Santiago de Cuba. Schley dueling Cervera was a seminal moment in naval warfare, if only because it (and Dewey at Manila) effectively positioned the United States to become a true world power. One-sided to be sure (and it wasn't Cervera's fault), but so many changes were set in motion from that one terrible morning engagement.
The late 1800s seem to have been a really strange confluence of new and old naval tech. It seems entirely possible that an early dreadnought could've encountered a late age of sail ship of the line in combat. Were there ever any encounters between the two or were there other examples of encounters between ships with that level of technological disparity in naval warfare?
Clayton Davis I believe actually the brief republic of Texas had a wooden sail ships of schooners that defeated two Mexican ship which were steamers and armed with exploding shells in 1843 Battle of Campeche. So the Mexicans had 2 advanced tech there, but I guess it wasn’t developed enough to make a difference.
Upon review...1894 war between Japan and China featured a major battle between steam ironclad battleships and Japans more modern ships. Not quite sail vs battleship.
If Spain had kept the Phillipines - there would also have been a knock-on effect in American domestic politics, the composition and design of the US Navy (in particular the later dreadnoughts), the composition design and strategy of the rest of the US military as well, and the strategic war plans for dealing with potential adversaries (imagine how different War Plan Orange would have looked). As far as just ship design itself, one wonders what the USN's dreadnought fleet would have looked like, had there not been that overriding requirement for an 8000 mile cruising range, to steam to the relief of an Army garrison in the Phillipines? When one thinks about it, it's amazing how much different the history of the 20th Century might have been, had this one "what if?" come to pass.
Great video, as always. Thank you. There's a relict of the Battle of Santiago de Cuba not too far from me - in the land-locked town of Palmyra, NY: One of the 140 mm guns off the Almirante Oquendo is installed in a very small park there, as a memorial/honor for Admiral Simpson.
Very nice! Another one of her guns is at Joint Base Anacostia Bolling in Washington DC. This one took a shot thru the gun shield at the cut out for the gun sight.
The mast of the USS Maine is installed along the seawall of the Naval Academy in Annapolis Maryland. The body of John Paul Jones is installed in a crypt beneath the dome of the Academy Chapel.
The main (and only) weapons of the Spanish Navy after Cuba was fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, fanatical devotion to the Pope and nice red (blue) uniforms.
HMS Vanguard reused 15" guns from storage. Did this include the turrets/turret mechanisms, or were the turrets of a new design and the stored guns only included the barrel and breech?
WELL were 1 battleship,2 armored cruisers,some auxiliary ships and 2 destroyers,,,more power than the olimpia armored cruiser,,and the other light cruisers of dewey
@@FULANODETAL The low freeboard monitors, USS Monterey and Monadnock, were sent to Dewey in June/July 1898. The weight of broadside shell might have been approximately the same if there were a contest.
Congress: "We need a grand fleet! Brazil, Spain, whoever is about to invade! The NYT told me so!" USN: "We could build this and this and some of these. It'll only cost..." Congress: 😬 😒 😮 🤭 😳 😨 Congress: "Here's $2." Congress: "And we'll give you the second dollar on completion of the fleet." USN: 😒
@@jevinliu4658 Well, they actually did. AFDM 6, the USS Competent (a floating dry dock). My ship was in it a couple of times. That meant the entire ship and crew was "In Competent". Someone had a sense of humor somewhere. AFDM 6 was in Pearl Harbor for my experience with her.
Poor forgotten USS Oregon BB3 and her incredible 14,000 nm sprint around South America in 66 days to make it in time for the battle of Santiago de Cuba. I hope it's still there, there's actually some of the USS Oregon left. When I was stationed on the Kitty Hawk homeported in Yokosuka Japan they had her anchor chain completely intact and on display. It was quite a walk starting at one end to the other end. Look for pictures of Fleet Activities Yokosuka, you want pictures looking out at the carrier pier and pictures showing the fleet Rec center. You should be able to see the chain shots.
Because they wasted most of the riches they got from the colonies for useless wars. If they had invested in education, infrastructure and development of the colonies, we would speak spain today.
@carmine paola but the Dutch and the French were such nice people. And it was very British to "give" Hong Kong to China, and even set an example for the Portuguese. 🙄
@chris younts the spanish didn't commit atrocities at the level of britain or other countries. They were the Best of them in "kindness" with the natives. Today countries like Paraguay and Bolivia (formed spanish colonies) are largely inhabited by indo-americans for that same reason.
Just watched this, very well done. To the counter factual at the end. A piece I don't think you considered maybe is if the Philippines are still Spanish owned or Protected then Spain could potentially have joined WW2 on the Axis side despite the pressures from the Allies due to pressure from the Japanese or because they saw a global potential benefit. Spain entering ww2 on the axis side throws a whole lot of what ifs into the balance. Anyway, very much appreciate your work.
Famously, The USS Oregon (BB-3) took a 66-day trek around South America to the Caribbean in 1898. That trip was one of the catalysts to the building of the Panama Canal in the next decade.
You could say I have the perfect bookends: I toured the USS Olympia museum in 2001 and in 2016, I was actually walking along Manila Bay, Manila and passed by the plaque commemorating the battle. I wish I had taken pictures of the plaque.
Just imagine being the inventor of"destroyers type ships"and them you admiral order you to go in 8 knots...and be the last in the line....dont remember any other battle were destroyers were the last in the line of battle
As far as alternate WWII, with Spain being friendly to the Axis, a Spanish Philippines may have just leased bases to the Japanese or remained neutral and allowed Spanish ships and planes to fuel up and move on. This brings up two interesting alternatives: Basing rights causing an attack on the Philippines, dragging the Spanish into the war; and either way, freeing up most of more than half a million Japanese soldiers to fight elsewhere.
They occupied the neutral Vichy ruled French Indochina (because of its rubber production, which was highly valuable for the Japanese war machine) without blinking an eye and most likely they would have done so with the Spanish Philippines either. The Philippines have much valuable resources like Copper, Silver, Gold, Nickel, Oil, Coal, Chromite all of this was highly important for the Japanese war industry, so it is highly likely that they would have occupied the Philippines anyways, regardless of who was in power there.
The only question then is whether it would have been with the Spanish blessing or not. It's also possible the Spanish would have been perfectly happy to sell raw materials to the Japanese and possibly invite them in to help protect the colony.
I'm thinking with Franco friendly to Germany and Italy, but officially neutral, it probably would not have been diplomatic to offer the Japanese bases in the Philippines. Spain could cede the Philippines to Japan the way Spain ceded Florida to the US, but that probably would not be diplomatically acceptable either. Because of Spain's relationship to Japan's allies, a Japanese invasion of the Philippines would not have been greeted with cheers in Madrid or Berlin. As others have suggested, the best course for Japan would be to not attack, but buy the resources it needed from the Philippines, and conserve it's military power for other endeavors. Buying the material might even be cheaper than invading and occupying the islands.
My grandfather witnessed the sinking of the Espana ( en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_battleship_Alfonso_XIII ). He was convalescing in a temporary military hospital on a peninsula overlooking the bay of Santander. There are conflicting accounts of how she went down. The official (therefore most likely?) account is that she hit a mine however press (including Times of London) at the time of the sinking reported her as being first ship of her class to be sunk by aerial bombardment. There are even archive photos of group of (possibly Russian?) pilots who are said to have dropped the bombs. But my grandfather, who said he witnessed the event in the company of mariners, had a less dramatic but more controversial account. His version: When the Espana met her fate she was in pursuit of a pair of British colliers that were attempting to gain the safety of the harbour. (A number of British merchant ships were running the blockade. Mostly out of Cardiff & Glasgow.) He says there was another British ship present on the perimeter. The Hood. Apparently all the sailors in the hospital were of the opinion that she intervened by torpedoing the Espana. (I did say controversial.) One other possibility exists. There were also Republican submarines operating along the north coast of Spain at the time. So. If anyone fancies a bit of a wild goose chase ;) PS I know they weren’t naval vessels but those blockade runners make an interesting story all on their own. :)
I was particularly interested in your scenario regarding WWII Philippines. Has consideration been given to the possibility that Franco may have considered joining the axis openly (rather than only providing tacit support) in order to protect his Asian territories if the Philippines had not been lost? This could have resulted in major consequences in Europe with the probable fall of Gibraltar, major consequences in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and restricted access to the Middle East to the allies.
But in the land war in Puerto Rico, the USA troops retreated during the last 3 battles and waited for Spain to stop supplying PR and accept payments from USA to leave PR. They didnt win PR militarily in battles, They bought it instead after retreated in last 3 battles. They retreated last 3 battles and waited to be bought away instead of charging and winning over The Puerto Ricans soldiers. 1898 no Air Force or good navy guns to reach the forest. Same in Philippines were USA fought for over 11 years with huge losses. Not easy to fight jungle fighters and guerrillas.
I find that the USS Holland (SS-1) wasn't commissioned in the US Navy until October 1900. Evidently, her impact on the Spanish-American War was quite minimal.
The Infanta Maria Teresa-class cruiser "Vizcaya" had some inpact in her shipyard town, the coat of arms of Sestao bears the image of said cruiser. They were significant for the time.
WW2 questions - Don't forget that the embargo and the shifting of the US Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor were in response to "Human Rights" Violations committed by Japanese soldiers along with the attack on the USS Panay (and HMS Ladybug) along with the bombing of the International Quarter in Shanghai during the 2nd Sino-Japanese War.
Naval history is so much more interesting between 1440 and 1925. I feel as if things get boring once you add in Aircraft Carriers and Missiles while taking away the shenanigans of ships staffed with barely literate former street criminals.
"Staffed with barely literate former street criminals " Add to that "and commanded by incompetent, heavily inbred officers with hereditary titles and bought commissions, or commissions granted to them for their titles, not because they've ever set foot on a ships deck"
Pinned post for Q&A :) (Also, I hope I came within shouting distance of saying the Spanish names correctly)
Who is, in you opinion, the best admiral the Royal Navy had after the Napoleonic Wars and what type of ship of the modern Royal Navy thould you name after him?
Do you also run the channel Venom Geek Media? Your presentation and voice are very similar lol. Either way great video!
Ooohh, I love alternative history, play out that scenario, the spanish keep the philippines and thus the US doesn't get immediately involved in ww2. How far do the japanese penetrate in their attack on the british empire, and what does the potential loss of goods from the indian ocean mean for the war in europe?
During WWII how did the Free Navies train their replacements? Did they just go through training with the Brits? Have their own training cycles? On the job training?
May have been answered before so please can someone link if so, BUT:
As mentioned before, during WW1 the Austro-Hungarian and Italian navies kept watch on the other but had no major engagements - who would you put your money on?
I remember reading that at the Battle of Manilla Bay the US sailors were cheering as the Spanish fleet was being destroyed. Dewey said something like, "Don't cheer. Those men are dying."
Actually, that was Capt. Jack Phillips of USS Texas (Maine’s sister ship) at Santiago de Cuba. He was appalled by the fires sweeping the Spanish ships. To his credit, Phillips and the other US commanders worked very hard to save as many Spanish sailors as they could. It was about as one sided as a battle can get.
@@markrook6085 thanks very much for the correction.
@@markrook6085 wow I have a lot about the Battle of Manila bay here than at school.
Am a Filipino.
What they taught at school was that the Battle was Scripted and has no mention of any personnel present on the Battle.
@@stanfrymann8454 'Don't cheer boys, those poor devils are dying.'
@@jameshailerthepostmaster4389 That incident was the land battle for the city, in August of 1898, where American and Spanish troops traded the city after a few skirmishes that left a dozen dead. Ranking American and Spanish officers agreed to this so the Filipino troops couldn’t take the city instead.
The Battle of Manila Bay, on May 1st 1898 was an actual battle that left most Spanish vessels sunk and almost a hundred killed and wounded.
I actually saw the Spanish submarine last year. Quite an incredible bit of kit considering it was designed and built in 1888. Isaac Peral was something of a visionary.
In Barcelona there's a replica of Monturiol's submarine, Ictíneo II, from 1865.
@@georgew2014 The Isaac Peral’s one was the first operational ready “modern “ sub.
Hi form Spain. Here in Spain we have the expression more was lost in Cuba. The fact is that many spaniards believe it was a war between woodden ships and modern battleships. A relieve attempt was sent to the philippines, but this was not allowed to pass through the Suez Canal
@joanne chon that was made by the french. A true spanishboo that frenchie.
Granted you guys did make a decent account for you had for basically a cheap sucker punch from us.
You can have it back as far as I’m concerned.... and I bet we’d make you a good deal on Puerto Rico.
Why were they not allowed to go through the Suez?
@@nairoc3 The British didn't allow it
"USS Iowa...no, not that one." Ye gods, the war was enough of a mismatch already, anachronistic WW2 battleships would have just been mean.
If any navy could have produced something like the second Iowa, it would simply be named the We Win.
@@christopherconard2831 Or the 'USS You might as well just surrender' XD.
If we're going that crazy, lets toss in the Yamato to the Spanish (properly supplied) and see what happens!
@@briankearney5994 Or the Bismarck. The Germans weren't on decent terms with the Spanish in this era.
@@richmcgee434 I can picture the Spaniards still managing to get insanely lucky with a torpedo though XD.
By the way, to this day the Spanish Navy is still called la Armada and so are the other Spanish-speaking navies of the world.
Which I'm not too sure but it probably roots it's name to the difference between "Marina Mercante" Merchant Navy (Merchant Marine in the US) and "Marina Armada" Armed Navy.
Cheers from Spain!
Thanks for that. I always say if I've learnt something new I've had a good day and today I have definatelly learnt something new.
The Armada, losing since 1588.
Not only Spain but the entire Spanish-speaking world. Here is a photo of an Argentine Navy Super Etendard: www.airteamimages.com/dassault-super-etendard_0764_argentina---navy_141905_large.html
Pues ahora una pregunta en español, por que a estos guiris les parece tan raro la palabra "Armada"
@@biddyboy1570 I can answer only 1 name to you.... BLAS DE LEZO
Royal navy...losing since 1589....only 1 year later the Royal Navy lose even more ships and soldiers than spanish armada in the coast of Ferrol...but maybe your manipulated history tells you nothing about that....but what can you spect from a country of pirates and smuglers...
Nobody expects the Spanish Navy video
If someone comes at you with a bowl of fruit, pull the lever and release the Spanish Armada.
I feel like part of this comment stems from something Jeremy Clarkson has said.
I understood that reference.
@@kyle857 something about a speed hump that may be Spanish.
@@admiraltiberius1989 Monty Python.
An amazing video - one cannot help but marvel at the bravery and audacity of the Spanish, charging the American fleet, knowing that death was coming.
I remember when Iowa, I think, sank a Spanish cruiser, and the American crew began to cheer, the her Captain silenced them with a roar "Don't cheer men, those are brave men dying over there!"
This was a different era of warfare, altogether. Iron ships, and iron men, and honor over all.
"Beaten with sticks until it stopped twitching"!! Classic
Nice work with the spanish spelling. As both cuban and spaniard, I have to say that I hardly can imagine the what if scenario of prioritizing The Phillipines over Cuba. The political, social ties were a lot stronger with Cuba. Is also worth of mention the ongoing conflict in the island long before the American intervention. Excellent video!
hola, si eres cubano y español, ¿qué opinas de todo esto? ¿qué opinarías si Cuba siguiese siendo española?
Good job as usual Drach. I really like the "Big Picture" and "What If" aspect of this one.
May you always have Fair Winds and Following Seas
I would like to see the Spanish navy fight Senator Tillman and his battleships.
Cruel and unusual punishment, but a lot of fun to watch.
Might as well send the Spanish armada at the "height" of it's power for all the good if would do. Tillman's ships might've been obscenely over built and over armed, but it would be an all you can see buffet of dead Spaniards.
@@overboss9599 ah, I see your point, but I raise you... boarding parties
@@highjumpstudios2384 if the fight starts with the Spanish in boarding positions they probably have a chance assuming there's only one Tillman in this fight if there's multiple in the Spanish just don't have a chance regardless
With what? Happy thoughts?😏
One of the few channels that makes a video on the Spanish Side of the War, at last, Thank you!
Excellent account of the relative naval strengths of Spain and the US before the Spanish-American War. But, politically, it was unthinkable for the Spanish goverment of the time to abandon Cuba and put a strong fight for the Philippines. For the Spanish people Cuba was not a colony, but an integral part of Spain, just as Cádiz or the Canary Islands. However, the Philippines did were considered a colony.
Moreover, there were massive economical interests in Cuba from Spanish elites, due to holdings in sugar, tobacco and rum production.
Well, maybe if they hadn't treated their "fellow Spanish compatriots" as a second class citizens they wouldn't have felt the need to revolt.
@@NautilusSSN571 there would still be a feel to need to revolt albeit mostly in Mindanao seeing as how that island group was mostly muslim even before the Spanish had came
@@biengabrielmanzares408 I'm talking about Cuba here, trying to keep the Philippines was pointless from the start.
@@NautilusSSN571 Philippines was seen as a important part of the empire, after losing their mainland colonies they decided to keep it despite the increase in maintenance
4:55 The Riachuelo would be a great ship to talk about. It was from far out most advanced (at each time period ofc) vessel ever.
I agree
riachuelo? I made a quick Google search and I found a Brazilian ship, but nothing to do with this war
18:10 That's exactly what happened, very few historians recognize that even today. In some Spanish military groups it's thought as a betrayal from the Spanish politician's.
I got confused when you mentioned the submarine Holland. Thought you were talking about the HMS Holland 1, but found out that USS Holland was named after John Philip Holland, who apparently was an Irish engineer who developed the first submarine formally commissioned into the US Navy, AND the first Royal Navy submarine, HMS Holland 1.
@chris younts i think forgotten weapons ian mcullum did a piece on the dynamite gun
frank hargreaves
While they weren't related, Holland had a sinking feeling about being a bit wet behind the ears, and upon hearing this, Souza dropped into a fugue and blew his brains out (of a tuba).
If any of that made sense to you, 4 AM Me is sorry, but there's nothing that can be done. G'night.
USS Maine would have been a better ship if they had remembered to put up no smoking signs in the magazine...
Spain had to be taken out of the Western hemisphere. They may have been a threat to the building of the Panama canal.
@@lawrencelewis8105 the canal wasnt a glimmer in the us eye at that point. The French were still at it.
@@lawrencelewis8105 Don't know how Spain could have been a treat with how they had become a sickman of Europe, France and Britain would have madr morr sence.
@@Hardcase_Kara Yeah, well you know Americans are. Anyone not American was seen as a threat.
@@davidtuttle7556 Americans took over the project in 1904 so I think planning and decision making had been going on for years, like Theodore Roosevelt's threats to Columbia to break off a piece of the Panamanian province to have the US control the Canal Zone. I do think the Spanish American war was a result of that. Plus, the US had filled the country out from coast to coast and was now looking at the rest of the world. What better way then to precipitate a "Splendid little war" as an American politician said at the time . Plus, William Randolph Hearst was pushing for a war to sell newspapers.
Thing was, Cuba was vastly more important to the Spanish than the Phillipenes. It was considered almost a part of Spain in some respects, and just abandoning it wasn't politically possible.
Same went with the philippines, from felipe II to alfonso XIII, they saw them as proper spanish land, after losing all of their continental land, maintaining the ph was more expensive, but it was seen as important spanish land
3:53 - Kamchatka: Did someone say Torpedo Boats?!
Another superb historical video. One surprise: Drach's comment about the U.S. battleships not being capable of rounding South America. U.S.S. Oregon famously did exactly that in March--May 1898. The Indiana-class Oregon was built in California and based there from her 1896 commission onward. In preparation for hostilities the Navy Department called her to the Atlantic Fleet. Oregon steamed steadily from San Francisco to the East Coast: 14,000 miles in 66 days. [This "fast" trip was later used as justification for undertaking to dig the Big Ditch across the Panama Isthmus.] Oregon participated at Santiago and contributed materially to the U.S. Navy victory.
Notably, the Spanish admiral commanding in Manila heard that Oregon had left California. He feared that she was coming to join Admiral Dewey in China, whose then-assigned four ships already outweighed his own squadron. [The ship that did augment the Asiatic Squadron turned out to be the protected cruiser U.S.S. Baltimore--another 8"-gunned protected cruiser that plainly outclassed the Spanish ships.]
Pelayo and cruisers were sent to Manila. They got as far as the Red Sea when they were recalled [on what may have been a planted story that the U.S. Navy was going to raid Spanish home waters]. The Navy Department was properly concerned for security of the East Coast [far closer to Spain than to the Philippines] so Oregon's orders to the Atlantic made good sense. But she easily could have been sent instead to join Dewey--and surely would have made short work of Pelayo.
After the war concluded Oregon returned to the West Coast [via Cape Horn, of course]. She conducted multiple operations across the Pacific Ocean during a long and useful life that included WW2 logistical service as an ammunition transport hulk participating in the 1944 invasion of Guam.
Good video. the guns of Cristobal Colon were refused because the units received were defective and the replacement were not ready when the war started. I would have noted that Spanish navy was limited in a certain way because the far location of the territories (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines) required long range ships. Also, the chaotic internal situation, with civil wars and constant goverment changes during the XIX century caused that the navy could not be properly maintained.
In the English language history of the Cristobal Colon the main armament guns were the subject of a 'dispute' with the British Armstrong manufacturer. Were the weapons defective, and under a contract warranty for replacement?
My congratulations for releasing this video about naval history of my country, you have all my finest support. This particulary moment of the history you describe is something that I have studied since many time and from many sources. The fact is that the spanish navy at that time was suffering a hugue transformation to a true naval power, with modern ships that was at the same tech level than other western powers. There are many circunstances that makes this steps not to be as fine as they would be. Those was a lack of time to complete the naval programs, the lack of vision of high admiralty to see the potential usefulness of Peral submarine, the corruption established in the government structures, the lack of financial support of the naintenance of vessels and proper training, the lost of the finest naval gun engineer Gonzalez Hontoria, an of course a lack of a good strategic plan to use our more capable oceanic vessels instead to use it to accomplish Madrid politicians assesments. We never could win that war, but I am sure that with a good strategy our ships could have defeated USA ships in the Caribean.
exacto, ganar la guerra contra los americanos habría sido muy difícil o imposible, pero al menos no perderla de una forma tan aplastante, de forma que a la hora de negociar la paz se hubiera hecho en mejores términos
At the time of the war, Spain had one large cruiser vessel received from the constructors about middle May 1897. This vessel, Cristobal Colon, went to Cuba after May 1898 without her main armament 254mm (10inch) weaponry. The English language histories portray this problem as an assessment by the Spanish government and/or navy as being un-acceptable. Were there any viable alternatives to British Armstrong 254mm guns? Could Spain have contacted Krupp gun works about 280mm or 240mm? Could the French construction yard at La Seyne have access to 274mm or 240mm weapons for Cristobal Colon? Could the Hontoria company provided 200mm or 160mm weapons?
This is a very interesting "For want of a Nail" scenario. Without the Philippines, I very much doubt America would have any interest in the Western Pacific region. However I should point out that by about this time America annexed Hawaii, so they would still have some Pacific interest. There's also another factor to consider though: what would Anglo-American relations be like? If Japan follows through with its Southern Expansion doctrine, it's going to gun for Australia. Since Australia was a very prominent dominion of the British Empire, depending upon how good relations between America and the UK are would determine if America would continue the trade embargo against Japan. If relations are strained, America might not be inclined to help the British. Conversely if relations are good, then the Pacific Campaign plays out almost exactly as it has happened.
And there's also the fact that Japan's Southern Expansion might also be a lot smoother than it was, given that they could happily ignore the Philippines, given Franco's alignment and all.
And I'd probably know Spanish.
Interesting thoughts there, machaman13. But if the relationship between the US and UK is strained there is the possibility that the UK would renew its relationship with Japan, which was only ended at the insistence of the US. This would leave the UK to concentrate on Germany and Italy and Japan could carry on in the Western Pacific knowing that the UK will not intervene and with no need to stretch their resources all the way down to Australia. They take the Dutch East Indies and get the oil they need.
And as we both now see the losers here will the US as the one thing they feared was a strong Japan in the Western Pacific. And that is the one thing they now have.
mechaman13 If the US doesn’t have any interest in the Western Pacific then it is likely that the Anglo-Japanese navel treaty would have been maintained and Japan is not necessarily hostile to the UK.
I think that the concentration would have still been in China. I think that without US guarantees on the Dutch East Indies the Dutch probably would have tried to come to an agreement with Japan as far as oil and rubber trade goes. Japan was interested in resources and might end up either invading later or pulling a stunt like they did with French Indochina where they controlled the area but nominally said the area belonged to Vichy France. Many in the Japanese Army considered the moves in SE Asia as a diversion from the real goal which was control of China. Plus I'm not sure that Japan was that interested in Australia. I'm sure there were some that would love to own the continent but as far as a major source of resources China had more known at the time and it was a lot closer.
Of course, there's also the increasing public opinion against Nazi Germany going on in the USA. Even if Japan didn't attack the US like they did historically, it's possible, and I want to believe likely, that the US would have entered the war against the Axis powers anyway at a later date. And once that happens, I don't think that Japan is going to get away scot free, as a member of the Axis. It might not have the same priority for the US as it did historically, but I think it'd happen.
Tangential to this, if you are in Puerto Rico I highly recommend you visit Old San Juan and specifically the fort of El Moro.
Inside one of the towers just above the “water battery” you can still see where a US battleship shell penetrated the wall of the tower and exploded inside the tower. Shell fragments are imbedded in the stone to this day.
Interesting video. In high school I did my senior year independent study paper on Naval Campaigns Of The Spanish - American War. I did a lot of research using primary sources for the time including newspapers both American and European. At the outbreak of war, the outcome was still considered very much in the air in Europe. The Spanish ships had Krupp guns and armor, and the general opinion was that was superior to what was being produced in the U.S. Of course, hindsight is 20 / 20 , but at the time things were not as clear. The American view was, from the start, that we would win; although, perhaps, not in as one sided a thrashing as took place.
One thing about the Spanish Navy- In Rota, Spain in the 1970s where we tied up on my 4 Med cruises when I was in the Navy was the aircraft carrier, the Dedalo. It never went anywhere but it was a beautiful old ship. Some friends went aboard and they said it was like visiting a museum, but it was an active ship. It also had a bar on it, something the US navy never had.
Oh wow! She was USS Cabot in World War II and carried on in the Spanish armada until 1989!
I loved this video. Perhaps you could have included an interesting fact about the state of the Armada española at the time: 10 years before the Span-Am war they had already built the first electric powered submarine armed with torpedoes. It can be visited in the Museo Naval in Cartagena (Spain). Just imagine if Spain had had the economic health to build and deploy a "pack of wolves" in Cuba and/or the Philippines. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_submarine_Peral
Can you do a video on the Santisima Trinidad ship of the line? I love your videos on sail ships
Congratulations for drawing attention to the - woefully unknown - Spanish-American War. I would highly recommend the PBS documentary "Crucible of Empire - The Spanish American War". It's very well done, and very probably a great eye opener to many.
Drach, thank you for setting the scene for your USS Oregon video, excellent work once again. Cheers from Oregon!
In regards the potential of a Spanish victory in the pacific’s effect on future WWII, keep in mind that the China Lobby in the US was very very influential and the US would still probably be pre-disposed to aid the Chinese, and regardless of its anti-imperial stance would probably be hostile to Japanese aggression against the European powers. It would be interesting to see how the Spanish overseas possessions would deal with their own civil war, or perhaps, had there ever been a civil war 40 years later if they hadn’t been so thoroughly mauled in the conflict with the US.
The obvious counter to that would be what sort of impact it would have with Franco having hypothetical control of the Philippines. It may have put Spain in a more powerful position during WWII and could possibly have led to them aiding the IJN.
Agree that Pearl Buck and the missionary societies to China would have retained a lot of influence in the USA even without naval bases in the Western Pacific/Phillipines. On the other hand, it's a little hard to see the Americans willing to go to war over the sinking of the Reuben James.
Even so, no US presence in the Philippines and no Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor means the US entry into the war is delayed, giving the Japanese Empire time to finish many of its campaigns in the WestPac and denies the US the massive propaganda coup handed to them by the surprise attack at Pearl. It also has implications for the European theater as well, since US entry there will also be delayed.
@@RCAvhstape not necessarily. Remember that Roosevelt had been trying to get into the war in Europe since winning reelection at the end of 1940. Even before that, the US Navy's broadcasting of the location of any belligerent's vessels it encountered had the practical effect of helping the British hunt down German merchant shipping. Lend-Lease, in March 1941, was a decidedly non-neutral act, as was escorting British convoys part of the way across the Atlantic. Roosevelt's "shoot on sight" order was issued in September 1941, and the Navy, in the person of Admiral Ghormley, had been actively cooperating with the Royal Navy since July. The USS Niblack dropped depth charges on U-52 as early as April 1941.
More directly on point, however, is the promise made at the Atlantic Conference in August 1941, to go to war if Japan attacked the UK in Malaya. While in practice this would mean Roosevelt asking Congress to declare war, he obviously thought he could deliver if he was making that promise to Churchill. Really, the Japanese did him a huge favor by attacking the US as well, because that turned would could have been a close vote into a near-unanimous one (Jeanette Rankin of Montana voted against in the House). We must not overstate the potential for the US involvement in WW2 to be delayed.
@@DiggingForFacts I agree. Franco would likely have made a lucrative arrangement with Japan.
Thanks, as always Drachiinifel. Your insight, research and observations are always welcome ! I should get an app for auto-like ! BTW, Charles V (a Spaniard, Holy Roman Emperor)) rumourdly, famously said, " To My God, I speak Spanish, to my courtiers, French, my lovers, Italian. As for my horses, nothing but German. Good Luck with all of that !
I'm amazed the US Navy ever stood a chance against the Comfy Chair-class armoured cruisers.
The Comfy Chair!?!?! YOU MONSTERS!!!
Unfortunately, we had outranged its attacks.
"Comfy Chair"?
I'm afraid I don't get it? Help?
@@henryrodgers7386 Monty python skits.
The spanish inquisition
I love it. “Each bill introduced was taken to the back of the building and beaten with sticks till it stopped twitching!”
Awesome video! Can you make guides on latter Spanish ships, say, Espana class dreadnoughts, Canarias & Almirante Cervera class cruisers?
Nice video. There is an interesting sci-fi “what if” novel called Fuego sobre San Juan (Fire on San Juan) in which the Armada, as in fact it was suggested by Villaamil, designer of the destroyer, disassembled the Nordenfelt multi-tube machine guns (11 and 25 mm) from their ships and used them in battlefields, mainly at San Juan Hills and El Caney, producing a massacre and deciding the war. A few years later a japanese fleet under the command of Togo headed to attack the Philippines where a respectable Spanish fleet awaited him, reinforced after his victory in the war of '98. It could have happened the situation you said, even before the IWW. Unfortunately and despite the beating that the few Spanish soldiers gave the overconfident Rough Riders, the naval war, as it usually happens, decided the conflict. Waiting for another chapter.
The annexation of Guam was bloodless and rather amusing (because the Spanish authorities believed protected cruiser USS Charleston was making a friendly port call), but it's proven to be of paramount strategic importance.
I love hearing this music while I'm hungover at 7am.
@Jimmy De'Souza what else is there to do?
I usually save these for when im hungover
@Tattle Boad lmao i work from home, i do billing and invoicing for a pharmacy
Sir. Buy your beverages off the top shelf.
Well distilled alcohol results (for me) in a less pronounced hangover.
@@Kevin_Kennelly that would be economically unfeasible considering the absolute degenerate state of my currently rampant alcoholism.
as far a I remember from school history class, in spain the conflict is taught as spain not having the means, the organization, the technology nor the will, so yeah, it was more a show effort from the part of spain than anything else, or at least that is how it's taught
Spain might not have held on to the Philippines even if they had beaten off the US Asiatic fleet. I think the cloud of butterflies would have been very complex post-1998 in the absence of the US occupation. My forefathers were in revolt and may yet have won their independence (at least momentarily), but may not have been able to hold on to more than the major island of Luzon -- meaning internecine conflict within the archipelago between various indigenous polities. There were other sharks in the water, established colonial powers in the neighborhood who might have felt compelled to move into a vacuum or take over to re-establish order. There were also up-and-comers just itching to expand their territories -- such as the Japanese, who, if we can recall, took advantage of WWI to expand their holdings in the Pacific.
The Philippines could have been ruled in whole or in part by the Spaniards (who might, after all, have quelled our rebellion), Dutch, French, British, or Japanese, or the islands could have been broken off into pieces by any combination of these powers. History goes off in all directions depending on how things were sorted out. Imagine if the Japanese *already* had forward bases in the Philippines in the 30's. Or imagine if the major British naval base in the area was not in Singapore but in Manila Bay. History would have unfolded very differently indeed.
(The one outcome I doubt would have been a long-term independent Philippines. There is very little precedent for a former colony achieving and maintaining its independence in that era, except in the margins. My poor country was simply too strategically placed to have stayed out of the grip of one or another great power for very long. Hopefully, we would have achieved nationhood later on if something like the global post-WWII decolonization had occurred.)
Yes, America would've demanded the Philippines eventually even if the Spanish Armada was not sunk
An excellent book about the US Navy that covers that time period is titled "The American Steel Navy". It covers the whole time from the arguments that started the modernization, thru the war of 1898, thru to the "Great White Fleet" circumnavigating the globe.
It covers a great deal of the naval thinking of the time, including a fair bit of the theories Alfred Thayer Mahan. I don't remember the author's name, but I do remember that it was published by Annapolis Press, i.e. the US Naval Academy. I bought a copy for my Dad year's ago, my uncle I believe has it now. Thanks to Drach here, I'm going to have to track down a copy for myself.
A great book for model makers with lots of detailed pictures. And drawings at the back with all the ships' histories.
Just prior to the war the Oregon was sent to the Atlantic via sailing around South America. So if it had stayed on station then what would have happened if the Spanish battleship and armored cruiser arrived in time for the Philippine sea battle? I always wondered about that.
The main question would've been what the time difference would be between the Spanish arriving in force and Oregon making it's way across the Pacific (plus Pelayo + Armoured cruisers would almost certainly have brought a large number of destroyers with them).
The US Navy did send two low freeboard monitors, USS Monterey and USS Monadnock, across the Pacific in June/July 1898 in order to support Dewey in Manila. Maybe that was because of the German vessels troubling Dewey in Manila.
Drach, great video once again. Off topic but could you do HMS Monarch (1868)? Seems to be a fascinating ship a steam iron clad ship with masts and turrets. I am fascinated by sails on the early ironclad ships because of their concern about lack of fuel sources. There’s a kind of comeback today in cargo ships today trying to experiment with sails in order to save fuel. Just curious how useful those sails were in reality and how comparable could she sail compared to purpose built sailing ships. I don’t think there’s any info in fact in this ship on TH-cam. Thanks!
An interesting thought: In the 40 subsequent years after the Spanish keeping the Philippines, it's actually possible that there might even have been, at some point, some sort of treaty between the Japanese and the US, rather than the friction that historically happened. A very interesting idea - I can still absolutely see the US government of the time embargoing Japan over it's behavior in China, but one Borneo was captured, I could expect that to be mostly a hollow action also.
This is my favorite youtube channel. I listen to it all day since I got laid off because of the plague. I cancelled cable a long time ago and just have internet and this all I watch anymore . Thank you Mr. Drachinifel for taking the time to make these videos. Can you cover some ancient battles of the Romans, Greeks, Carthan's, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians and vikings? Did Vikings ever fight naval battles?
Drach yes you are Correct I Did enjoy this Video . We have a Gun from the Castilla in Highland Park . At 12 Minutes you mention Unprotected Cruisers and at 12:50 name the Castilla . May 1st 1998 Battle of Manila Bay is where she was Sunk in Shallow Water . The Krupp15-cm S K L /35 Naval Rifle was made in 1883 or 1893. It is one of the 4 main guns mounted in Sponsons . The Naval Rifle is very Large with a 5.9inch bore and Range was 6 miles . The other 2 Surviving Naval Rifles from the Ship are on the State house Lawn in Montpelier ,Vermont which was Dewey's Home town . At 13 :15 you suggest lack of speed of the Unprotected Cruisers , yes You are Correct Again . A few days before the Battle the Castilla had a bad Propeller Shaft Leak . They sealed the leak with Cement which means the Ship was towed and moored in Shallow Water prior to the Battle . It was nice that this Video showed me more about the ships used and Photos of them . I loved the Floating dry docks pictured . The Krupp can be seen on You tube , search for . " Duck ( Mallard ) it is a Krupp Naval Rifle Episode 134 "
Most of the US Navy in 1865 is coastal blockade interdiction ships or riverine patrol boats, usually equipped with mortars, maybe also spar torpedos. Though large it wasn't an ocean going navy and was optimized for intercepting capturing or destroying (usually unarmed) (sometimes not always fast) blockade runners. Scrapping it wasn't really much loss of defense potential.
Wait! Where's the two to three hour vids I've come to expect? Now I've got the entire afternoon free and no excuse not to mow the lawn!!! ARGH...
Name the the lawnmower, USS Maine.
An excellent video covering possibilities I had not thought of especially the possible effects on WW2
Love your work. it appears that the USS Oregon's 14,000 mile trip to the east coast is missing from your what ifs. It is of my interest to me because it was built in my home town and had a remarkable and strange history but it also in the context of this video might it not have been sent to help Dewey if needed?
It would all depend on when the orders for Oregon to move came in compared to when the Spanish move.
@@Drachinifel But the Oregon did round the horn, so she must have been more seaworthy than she looked. Also somehow ended up in the Philippines at the end of her carrier.
Love your channel brother. Most of what I learn here I will never use but, I'm always on the hunt for new and interesting information and your channel has plenty of it. Thanks man.
Two words not normally heard together in the same sentence: "Texas" and "smallest".
Seafodder it was the BIGGEST of the smallest.
Future shades of Alaska. An Alaskan said after being presented the size and breadth of Texas, "I'd put a fence down the middle and make two ranches out of it."
@@rcwagon To which Texans reply: "Yeah, but just wait until your shi*t melts."
Could you do a review of the Light Cruiser that was named after Admiral Cervera? Also as a historical note. He was one of the few officers who was pushing for modernization of the Spanish Navy during this time
My lunch went cold watching this. Bravo
I thoroughly enjoyed today's rum ration. Thank you, Uncle Drach. Health to you and yours.
6:30 for people who want to make jokes about americans putting guns on top of guns
Well, they DID invent the super-firing turret arrangement that would become standard for most large warships from WW1 onwards
*USS Second Amendment intensifies*
Deez Noots I love the Kearsarge class.
Still not enough guns.
Needs more dakka
Thank you , SIr, for your videos on naval subjects; I really came to like and enjoy them - well, yes, I fear the end of quarantine, because working again will deprive me of thy chance to binge watch them all :-)
Wednesday Rum Ration--Unleash the Krakken! (Rum, that is.)
Sorry if anyone has already said something like this.
Krakken rum is kinda terrible tho.
Really good work with pronuncing the Spanish names!! Those are hard!!
Keep in mind USS Oregon, a good ship with a well-trained crew, was already in the Pacific prior to the war. It could have been assigned to join Dewey and her absence would have had no effect on Cuban operations. That would have taken care of any concentration in what the Spanish could send.
Good point on if the US was not a western Pacific power before WW II. There might be a small US Asiatic Squadron in China, but it would be difficult to see it engaging the powerful Japanese fleet for no reason. And, what would be the effect on Japanese fleet composition? Without the US as the main probable enemy, would the Japanese fleet look the same in 1941? Also, without major US fleet units in the Pacific, what would this mean to the British and Dutch fleets? No probable American backup would surely mean the RN and the Dutch would HAVE to have more units in Southeast Asia. What would the US fleet look like and where would be based, and what would be the war planning?
This is fun!
Fascinating... thank you! More interesting things to think about - if Spain still held the Philippines, would the Republic have used THEM as a dumping ground for disgruntled officers, like they did with the Canarias? AND... General Franco only became an Army officer because the Spanish Armada was so drastically reduced by the Spanish-American War. He came from a naval family & had wanted to go Navy. How different would things be if he was an Admiral instead of a General...
"Between the end of the American Civil War and the rise of the 1890s, there was an age undreamed of."
Brilliant as always. Interesting conjecture on the the possible outcomes of Spanish naval choices.
What was really said:
"I have the hot dogs ready for the crew's picnic, sir!"
"Very good, you may put them on the fire when ready, Gridley! "
Lawrence Lewis Yikes that’s painfully funny !
@@richardputz3233 Thanks, I remember it from Mad magazine from many years ago. More years ago that I want to remember!
@@lawrencelewis8105 You 'attributed'!!! You sited your source. RESPECT.
The Americans kept officially telling Europe that they were against the idea of a colonial empire, yet they established their own. The Philippinos were rising against the Spanish and didn't expect the Americans to replace the Spanish as overlords. The "pacification" meant up to 2 million people lost their lives between 1899 and 1902. The Maine like a few ship suffered a coaldust explosion in Havana. The excuse the US needed to declare war.
Indeed! 1984 Orwell...
Fantastic video as always Drach......I still think it would be best to lock Congress in a room with an angry grizzly bear......#stopbillabuse
Btw great job on pronouncing all those Spanish names Drach.
Numantia and Victoria were refitted in La Seyne in 1895, they had new QF Guns installed and rigging removed, cant remember if boilers were replaced as wellness, but theese two ships were much more than Just obsolete ironclads.
The Spanish Navy is still called the Spanish Armada because ‘Armada’ is Spanish for ‘Navy’
Would love to see the channel do a full video on the Battle of Santiago de Cuba. Schley dueling Cervera was a seminal moment in naval warfare, if only because it (and Dewey at Manila) effectively positioned the United States to become a true world power. One-sided to be sure (and it wasn't Cervera's fault), but so many changes were set in motion from that one terrible morning engagement.
The late 1800s seem to have been a really strange confluence of new and old naval tech. It seems entirely possible that an early dreadnought could've encountered a late age of sail ship of the line in combat. Were there ever any encounters between the two or were there other examples of encounters between ships with that level of technological disparity in naval warfare?
Clayton Davis I believe actually the brief republic of Texas had a wooden sail ships of schooners that defeated two Mexican ship which were steamers and armed with exploding shells in 1843 Battle of Campeche. So the Mexicans had 2 advanced tech there, but I guess it wasn’t developed enough to make a difference.
See the various conflicts between France, Indochina, China, and Japan for examples of conflicts featuring this disparity.
@@gj1234567899999 I'll have to check that out, thanks!
@@dclark142002 I'll look into those, thanks!
Upon review...1894 war between Japan and China featured a major battle between steam ironclad battleships and Japans more modern ships.
Not quite sail vs battleship.
Your humor makes these history lessons so much more fun.
If Spain had kept the Phillipines - there would also have been a knock-on effect in American domestic politics, the composition and design of the US Navy (in particular the later dreadnoughts), the composition design and strategy of the rest of the US military as well, and the strategic war plans for dealing with potential adversaries (imagine how different War Plan Orange would have looked).
As far as just ship design itself, one wonders what the USN's dreadnought fleet would have looked like, had there not been that overriding requirement for an 8000 mile cruising range, to steam to the relief of an Army garrison in the Phillipines?
When one thinks about it, it's amazing how much different the history of the 20th Century might have been, had this one "what if?" come to pass.
All of history is filled with such what ifs. It's quite interesting.
Great video, as always. Thank you.
There's a relict of the Battle of Santiago de Cuba not too far from me - in the land-locked town of Palmyra, NY: One of the 140 mm guns off the Almirante Oquendo is installed in a very small park there, as a memorial/honor for Admiral Simpson.
Very nice! Another one of her guns is at Joint Base Anacostia Bolling in Washington DC. This one took a shot thru the gun shield at the cut out for the gun sight.
I was waiting for this episode since the Armada sailed from Lisbon!
The USN never considered USS Maine to be a BB, it was officially listed in the records as ACR-1 (Armored Cruiser).
Boy oh boy do I love my weekly rum ration.
The mast of the USS Maine is installed along the seawall of the Naval Academy in Annapolis Maryland. The body of John Paul Jones is installed in a crypt beneath the dome of the Academy Chapel.
The main (and only) weapons of the Spanish Navy after Cuba was fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, fanatical devotion to the Pope and nice red (blue) uniforms.
Bring out the comfy chair.
Can someone explain to me the comfy chair joke? Even though you're not supposed to explain jokes.
@@Wildeye13 The comfy chair is used as a torture implement in the Monty Python Spanish inquisition sketches.
@GWTPict GWTPict
Oh, okay. Crap I need to brush up on Monty Python. I completely forgot about that. Thanks for the reply.
HMS Vanguard reused 15" guns from storage. Did this include the turrets/turret mechanisms, or were the turrets of a new design and the stored guns only included the barrel and breech?
Oh how I would have loved to see about a Spanish Second Pacific Squadron
WELL were 1 battleship,2 armored cruisers,some auxiliary ships and 2 destroyers,,,more power than the olimpia armored cruiser,,and the other light cruisers of dewey
FULANODETAL I have absolutely no idea, but it might have been fun seeing the Spanish get there
@@FULANODETAL The low freeboard monitors, USS Monterey and Monadnock, were sent to Dewey in June/July 1898. The weight of broadside shell might have been approximately the same if there were a contest.
@@arthurwilson6008 problem monitors were not good at high sea..those Who went to san juan almost sunk for the rough sea..
How about an in depth look at the Pelayo? I love these old ships and I can't find much info on them.
Congress: "We need a grand fleet! Brazil, Spain, whoever is about to invade! The NYT told me so!"
USN: "We could build this and this and some of these. It'll only cost..."
Congress: 😬 😒 😮 🤭 😳 😨
Congress: "Here's $2."
Congress: "And we'll give you the second dollar on completion of the fleet."
USN: 😒
USN: *Actually builds something competent*
@@jevinliu4658 Well, they actually did. AFDM 6, the USS Competent (a floating dry dock). My ship was in it a couple of times. That meant the entire ship and crew was "In Competent". Someone had a sense of humor somewhere. AFDM 6 was in Pearl Harbor for my experience with her.
USN: "Wow! That's a dollar and fifty cents higher than the last time!"
@@Shenaldrac USN: And you didn't even give me a tenth of that!
If the opposite of "pro" is "con", what is the opposite of "progress"? ;)
Poor forgotten USS Oregon BB3 and her incredible 14,000 nm sprint around South America in 66 days to make it in time for the battle of Santiago de Cuba.
I hope it's still there, there's actually some of the USS Oregon left. When I was stationed on the Kitty Hawk homeported in Yokosuka Japan they had her anchor chain completely intact and on display. It was quite a walk starting at one end to the other end. Look for pictures of Fleet Activities Yokosuka, you want pictures looking out at the carrier pier and pictures showing the fleet Rec center. You should be able to see the chain shots.
In some way i feel bad for Spain back in just two century it was empire that sun never sets on and by the 1890s it was shadow of itself .
Because they wasted most of the riches they got from the colonies for useless wars.
If they had invested in education, infrastructure and development of the colonies, we would speak spain today.
@carmine paola but the Dutch and the French were such nice people. And it was very British to "give" Hong Kong to China, and even set an example for the Portuguese. 🙄
@chris younts the spanish didn't commit atrocities at the level of britain or other countries. They were the Best of them in "kindness" with the natives. Today countries like Paraguay and Bolivia (formed spanish colonies) are largely inhabited by indo-americans for that same reason.
@carmine paola you are very generous, it comes with the shoes.
@carmine paola 🤣 was that you on the ticket queue at Fennchurch station?
Just watched this, very well done.
To the counter factual at the end. A piece I don't think you considered maybe is if the Philippines are still Spanish owned or Protected then Spain could potentially have joined WW2 on the Axis side despite the pressures from the Allies due to pressure from the Japanese or because they saw a global potential benefit. Spain entering ww2 on the axis side throws a whole lot of what ifs into the balance.
Anyway, very much appreciate your work.
Famously, The USS Oregon (BB-3) took a 66-day trek around South America to the Caribbean in 1898. That trip was one of the catalysts to the building of the Panama Canal in the next decade.
You could say I have the perfect bookends: I toured the USS Olympia museum in 2001 and in 2016, I was actually walking along Manila Bay, Manila and passed by the plaque commemorating the battle. I wish I had taken pictures of the plaque.
The Spanish-American War was the catalyst for the Panama Canal
Another great job, especially on a topic that gets so little play for a “Splendid little war” that had such an impact on the future.
Just imagine being the inventor of"destroyers type ships"and them you admiral order you to go in 8 knots...and be the last in the line....dont remember any other battle were destroyers were the last in the line of battle
@FULANODETAL
Captain Fernando Villaamil. Indeed!
As far as alternate WWII, with Spain being friendly to the Axis, a Spanish Philippines may have just leased bases to the Japanese or remained neutral and allowed Spanish ships and planes to fuel up and move on. This brings up two interesting alternatives: Basing rights causing an attack on the Philippines, dragging the Spanish into the war; and either way, freeing up most of more than half a million Japanese soldiers to fight elsewhere.
They occupied the neutral Vichy ruled French Indochina (because of its rubber production, which was highly valuable for the Japanese war machine) without blinking an eye and most likely they would have done so with the Spanish Philippines either.
The Philippines have much valuable resources like Copper, Silver, Gold, Nickel, Oil, Coal, Chromite all of this was highly important for the Japanese war industry, so it is highly likely that they would have occupied the Philippines anyways, regardless of who was in power there.
The only question then is whether it would have been with the Spanish blessing or not. It's also possible the Spanish would have been perfectly happy to sell raw materials to the Japanese and possibly invite them in to help protect the colony.
I'm thinking with Franco friendly to Germany and Italy, but officially neutral, it probably would not have been diplomatic to offer the Japanese bases in the Philippines. Spain could cede the Philippines to Japan the way Spain ceded Florida to the US, but that probably would not be diplomatically acceptable either. Because of Spain's relationship to Japan's allies, a Japanese invasion of the Philippines would not have been greeted with cheers in Madrid or Berlin. As others have suggested, the best course for Japan would be to not attack, but buy the resources it needed from the Philippines, and conserve it's military power for other endeavors. Buying the material might even be cheaper than invading and occupying the islands.
My grandfather witnessed the sinking of the Espana (
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_battleship_Alfonso_XIII ).
He was convalescing in a temporary military hospital on a peninsula overlooking the bay of Santander.
There are conflicting accounts of how she went down. The official (therefore most likely?) account is that she hit a mine however press (including Times of London) at the time of the sinking reported her as being first ship of her class to be sunk by aerial bombardment. There are even archive photos of group of (possibly Russian?) pilots who are said to have dropped the bombs. But my grandfather, who said he witnessed the event in the company of mariners, had a less dramatic but more controversial account.
His version:
When the Espana met her fate she was in pursuit of a pair of British colliers that were attempting to gain the safety of the harbour. (A number of British merchant ships were running the blockade. Mostly out of Cardiff & Glasgow.)
He says there was another British ship present on the perimeter. The Hood.
Apparently all the sailors in the hospital were of the opinion that she intervened by torpedoing the Espana. (I did say controversial.)
One other possibility exists. There were also Republican submarines operating along the north coast of Spain at the time.
So. If anyone fancies a bit of a wild goose chase ;)
PS I know they weren’t naval vessels but those blockade runners make an interesting story all on their own.
:)
I was particularly interested in your scenario regarding WWII Philippines. Has consideration been given to the possibility that Franco may have considered joining the axis openly (rather than only providing tacit support) in order to protect his Asian territories if the Philippines had not been lost? This could have resulted in major consequences in Europe with the probable fall of Gibraltar, major consequences in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and restricted access to the Middle East to the allies.
But in the land war in Puerto Rico, the USA troops retreated during the last 3 battles and waited for Spain to stop supplying PR and accept payments from USA to leave PR. They didnt win PR militarily in battles, They bought it instead after retreated in last 3 battles.
They retreated last 3 battles and waited to be bought away instead of charging and winning over The Puerto Ricans soldiers. 1898 no Air Force or good navy guns to reach the forest.
Same in Philippines were USA fought for over 11 years with huge losses. Not easy to fight jungle fighters and guerrillas.
I find that the USS Holland (SS-1) wasn't commissioned in the US Navy until October 1900. Evidently, her impact on the Spanish-American War was quite minimal.
The Infanta Maria Teresa-class cruiser "Vizcaya" had some inpact in her shipyard town, the coat of arms of Sestao bears the image of said cruiser. They were significant for the time.
WW2 questions - Don't forget that the embargo and the shifting of the US Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor were in response to "Human Rights" Violations committed by Japanese soldiers along with the attack on the USS Panay (and HMS Ladybug) along with the bombing of the International Quarter in Shanghai during the 2nd Sino-Japanese War.
Naval history is so much more interesting between 1440 and 1925. I feel as if things get boring once you add in Aircraft Carriers and Missiles while taking away the shenanigans of ships staffed with barely literate former street criminals.
"Staffed with barely literate former street criminals "
Add to that "and commanded by incompetent, heavily inbred officers with hereditary titles and bought commissions, or commissions granted to them for their titles, not because they've ever set foot on a ships deck"
@@kieranh2005 That's why the Good Lord invented Petty Officers and Sergeants of Marines.
@@gerardmdelaney and also NCOs.
The vessel at 12.34 looks to be the very thing for taking holidaymakers for a trip around the bay !